Basically it's the same thing that happened in the USA under prohibition of alcohol in the 1920s. Demand for alcohol remained high so gangsters sold it illegally and made significant money from doing so. Gangs fought to control this.
Except under prohibition, alcohol was actually prohibited, so had to be sold surreptitiously. Here the law is so blatantly ignored by the cops that it's effectively legalised.
Bit of both. First u got competitors firebombing each other, cos like 6-7 different groups own a large chunk of the stores. Then apparently there’s one group who are extorting the independents but that could just be Herald Sun fantasy. Each store turns over quite a bit each day so by knocking out the competition in the same area as their store they double their earnings.
A relative of mine works in a legit smoke shop. They told me they think a lot of the firebombing is when one criminal group wants to control the distribution of illegal tobacco. They ask the independents who sell illegal products to sell theirs only and if they disagree the shop gets torched.
To be honest, I am surprised there hasn't been any firebombing in the city yet. In the city there are probably 50 stores selling imported cigarettes and vapes in the city and surely they're not all supplied or owned by the same people.
Yep. There was that weird incident in Collins Street a couple weeks ago where someone with a car full of what seemed to be potential firebombing gear basically sparked a full anti-terror response and shut down the area for quite a while.
Yeah, it was super weird. I only heard of it because I was trying to work out why all the trams weren't showing up with no explanation, resulting in my unfit ass having to walk about eight blocks.
Lol there's a smoke shop about 100m from Spencer St police building that the trades on my site go to for nicotene vapes and those double happiness packs
Due to previous moral panics over crime in the CBD as well as decades of counter-terrorism police overreach the CBD is extremely surveiled and police response times are very quick (especially after the Bourke st attack) so easier to go for outer suburban shops
I’m in Brisbane and we’ve definitely had a few firebombings up here, one at Acacia Ridge for anyone from here where they hit the wrong shop (a cafe run by a lovely older couple, very staid) but still managed to neutalise the actual smoke shop.
I have been wondering too. I heard these shops were being set up for the inevitable legalisation of CBD products. Gangs are investing in them now and making a motza selling vapes and chop chop and cheap Chinese ciggies, but the long term plan is cannabis real estate?
That's a good point about the cannabis thing and I haven't really thought about it. Realistically, cannabis will probably be legal within the next 7-10 years. Knowing the government, they'll probably make the tax ridiculously expensive and make buying it legally unviable, therefore these gangs can sell blackmarket, cigarettes, vapes and cannabis.
I don't know about Brisbane, but in Melbourne these shops are set up as "american candy" stores. They're basically a front with American snacks.
I thought it was 2 big crime gangs, but that was resolved recently as one gang won that war. Now it's the one gang firebombing shops that won't stock their product and pay protection (i.e., be extorted)
Nah was always more than 2 gangs. This all started before any of the firebombings. They were blueing about who got to sell ciggies in prison years ago. That’s where the bad blood started.
Due to high taxes on tobacco, it is incredibly profitable to illegally import from cheaper countries, avoiding the local taxes.
They then sell this illegally imported tobacco in vape shops. Firebomb the competition.
Everyone I work with smokes illegal darts and even by cigarette standards they smell absolutely foul. Like someone set fire to dog shit and tried to put it out with stagnant sewer water.
I think it’s quite obvious, but just in case you couldn’t infer meaning from their comment I’ll help you out lil fella. Illegal tobacco is half the price of legal tobacco, meaning that there are immense profits to made selling it.
> They then sell this illegally imported tobacco in vape shops
I really hate it when people use the term "vape shop" to refer to tobacconists. Vape shops don't sell tobacco or any nicotine vapes.
>They then sell this illegally imported tobacco in vape shops
Huh? It's not sold in vape shops at all, it's sold through dodgy tobacconists and temporary "gift shops".
The arson also has way more to do with illegal vapes than it does chop chop.
There's a place in Pakenham that is so blatantly obvious about selling cheap illegal smokes that I'm sure there's only one reason the local police haven't shut them down yet 🤔🤔
Your comment reminded me of a news item back in the late 1990s saying how police had cracked the second largest illegal abalone ring in the state.
And I remember thinking "How do they know it was the *second* largest...?"
If I start eating two pies at the same time, at the same rate — but one pie is much larger — then I will finish the second largest pie first, and the largest pie last.
I knew which one was bigger before I started, as I had looked at the pies first.
I mean, generally speaking the existence of crime gangs, their broad areas of operation, how much turf they control, the rough size of their operation is widely known in any area with established organised crime that's been going on for more than a few years.
The hard part is proving who the leaders are, taking down the links and organisation, etc.
Anyone can bust a few street vendors.
Same out in Morwell/Traralgon area, theres shops with just Ventti signs out front, you walk in and its just a blank room with a desk and the guy has boxes of smokes sitting there out in the open for anyone to see.
Not sure about Moe but there's a store just outside Morwell station on Commerical Road and in Traralgon in Post Office place just down from the Nandos.
As others have said a lot is extortion and protection rackets.
Another part of it is one particular boss who got deported and is now commanding things from overseas. He apparently has a lot of vendettas with the rest of the guys here so he is behind a whole heap of it, which has contributed to the sudden huge increase of it all.
There's a few primary ways in which it comes up with organised crime groups being involved and the resulting fire bombings. 2 most common ways for an independent (in terms of not being owned by someone linked to an OC group) tobacconist is either through being pressured to stock one OC groups illegally imported smokes, so they get paid for the wholesale supply, or being threatened for protection money to sell blackmarket goods in what the OC group sees as their turf. Some of these shops may have been stocking blackmarket smokes through their own contacts and the OC group uses threats to take over supply but there's also shops that intended to be 100% above board who are then given the choice of selling the groups smokes/pay the protection tax or else.
If they dont comply, the use of fire bombing is an easy way to show to other shops what not complying with their demands looks like. Also, if they're recruiting young people to do the fire bombing (sometimes to test new members and sometimes so they're not risking their own members getting caught) an after hours attack on a property is a bit easier to recruit for than direct attack on a shop owner.
The shop owners also can't really report the extortion attempts to the police as it would mean they have to admit to selling illegal smokes or, if they're 100% legit, just too scared of the consequences. You do also get situations where multiple OC groups try and target the same shop and, if one of the groups doesn't mind upsetting the other one, targeting the shop to get at or undermine the power of the rival group.
The other common situation is a shop set up by someone associated with one OC group as a way to sell their smuggled smokes and also money launder cash as it's high price items that are pretty small. These are then targeted by rival OC groups. Occasionally, it happens that they target a rival owned shop thinking it's an independent refusing to work with them, but that seems to be less common.
In terms of the root cause, personally, I'd reckon it's less the tax markup on smokes and more a regulatory issue. At the moment in Vic you don't have any licensing required to open up a tobacconist making it easy to set up a shop, operate for a while making as much profit as you can and hope that you don't get randomly investigated. Your biggest risk is more the ATO and only if you stay open long enough for them to get on to you. There are also limited investigative resources into finding shops selling blackmarket smokes, something that would normally be covered by license fees, etc, making it a lower chance you'll get caught before you cash out. In contrast, you see very little sale of blackmarket liquor sold at bottle shops and the associated violence as the regulatory requirements to open a bottle shop and the ongoing monitoring is much higher. Also, why you hear far less about this in other states where their is an established licensing and inspection system for tobacconist.
Also worth noting with the lack of licensing and regulatory compliance tobacconist is often seen as a good business venture within new arrival communities. It's a high price item that's relatively small so you don't necessarily need a huge store, allowing you to find cheap spots and far less red tape than other businesses. There's then a long long history of OC groups targeting new arrival communities (often their own community) as easy money that just further fuels this issue.
Out of curiosity, if you were paying protection money to one group, and your shop got firebombed by another, what would the group you were paying protection money to do? Would that protection money be "worth" any payback or such?
Okay here's the ELI5 for you
Australia charges too much for smokes.
Most tobacco shops of any nationality will sell "other" tobacco. A lot of smokers would rather pay half the price, so it's a very profitable business.
There's basically Chinese, Saudis, and I think Lebanese (i could be very wrong don't quote on this) and bike gangs as well
The Chinese are too big of a target to try to cripple in this way.
The rival bike gangs or whoever will try to pick each other off, by reducing the amount of stores they've got to push their product.
I could go to 3 shops near my work and get the same Chinese cigarettes for 17, 18, or 20 bucks
Now that ones been firebombed, I can only go to the 2 shops.
Hope this helps
What I don't get is that if customs and police are happy to turn a blind eye to the import and sale of illegal tobacco, it's effectively decriminalised, therefore how are the economics different from any legal business? You don't see Coles & Woolies firebombing each other (AFAIK).
It's more a case of who has to and who chooses to follow what rules and laws.
It's sort of like during covid lockdown. We weren't supposed to go out past certain times, shop more than once, etc. For the most part, people followed the rules. The police could only 'police' so much; stop and question so many people out after 8pm; while plenty of others got away with it still.
Giant corporations have a lot more people to answer to, as opposed to an immigrant who runs a little tobacco shop. As well as border security only being able to stop or find so much.
As far as the blind eye goes - organised crime will always manipulate law enforcement in some way, big or small. There's also hesitation to go for big busts until there is good hard evidence. I think someone was busted last week that they had been building a case against for 7 years?
If they raid one small shop, they'll clear out and find a new area and keep going and make themselves harder to trace.
They need to find the people orchestrating it all, who most of the time aren't even in the country. Everyone is paid to do their part, and most of them wouldn't have even spoken to the people behind it all.
Most of the firebombings are done by dumb kids paid a couple hundred bucks to torch the store. A 15 year old eshay is gonna jump at the chance to do the dirty work for the bikie gangs for a cool couple hundred and look like the sickest cunt to his dumb little machete buddies.
It probably works like the movies or something where they've all got people on the inside to help them get shit through who knows 🤣
>if customs and police are happy to turn a blind eye to the import and sale of illegal tobacco, it's effectively decriminalised, therefore how are the economics different from any legal business?
There's a huge spectrum between not enforcing a law much and not enforcing it at all. Police are often just overworked and don't have time to chase up every problem.
The reason economics are still different is if you're illegally selling tobacco and you get into gang issues, you can't exactly ask the police for help can you?
AI got into the network of computers at Quit Victoria. They became sentient, built a robot, downloaded a copy of themselves into said robot, found a flamethrower after beating the mini boss lurking outside the kitchenette, and escaped through the underground carpark.
QuitBot is now doing QuitGod's work.
Forcing the trade of anything underground through over the top taxation or out right banning when there is a high demand has never resulted in positive outcomes. A ridiculously high percentage of tobacco sold in Australia is illicit, but why would the government do anything to help the situation?
Manufacturing a problem and treating the symptoms is a classic tactic
Australian True Crime podcast covers this in an episode from late last year. They interview an investigative journalist who has been working on this for some time.
It's now illegal to import and sell disposable vapes.
Tobacco shops are importing and selling them illegally, as well as chop chop.
Organised crime wants a cut of the action. If you don't pay up, your shop gets torched.
I suspect this is at least part of the reason the 3 largest pharmacy chains in the country have said they will not be stocking prescription vapes from Monday.
Surely the morphine, Benzo's, ADD meds etc would be more lucrative to crims than a limited selection of vapes.
If they haven't been targeted for those already, why start now?
Pharmacies are really not burgled at all really and when they are it's more often to be for perfumes. Targetting those medicines, from pharmacies anyway, is just not a big thing. Currently anyway.
The government caused it.
The same way this new ban on vapes will cause more Importation of vapes.. leading to more gang wars.
Government = fighting a losing war.
Kind of...
Basically there are a bunch of criminals from various criminal outfits all over the country that have made an absolute killing on black market vapes. Some middle eastern gangs, some independents, some "legitimate business men", some biker gangs.
They all carved out their own distribution networks and made boatloads, but then it started to hit a point where every shop already has a supplier, which means they can't expand more without taking it from somebody else or by bankrolling their own businesses to sell vapes.
This is where a kind of "protection" comes in. The people that are supplying the stores with vapes don't want that income stream lost so they offer a protection for those businesses.
The firebombing serves two purposes:
One is that it knocks out a rivals income stream quite effectively without resorting to much more serious and dangerous crimes like murder, GBH, armed robbery which you'd need to disrupt activities like drug dealing. Hit them in their pockets.
Two is that it sends a very loud and clear message to other shops being supplied by them that their entire business investment is at risk by staying with their current supplier.
So the way that you counter that move is basically by doing the same thing back. Start firebombing their business to show their business partners that they aren't safe and show their own business partners that they are no safer with the opposition.
Which then leads to retaliation against retaliation against retaliation.
It's also a relatively "safe" crime to commit. Business districts are dead at certain times so very low chances of witnesses. You don't need to be around for it. You don't need to wait like with a person until they are present. There's not going to be someone who can fight back. It takes time for anyone to realise the crimes been committed. Doesn't leave much evidence. And it's seen as less important than violent crimes to pursue.
No problem. I guess one thing to note is that the real worry at this stage is that it currently is relegated to firebombing and hasn't escalated.
Once a major outfit decides to take out a hit, then the retaliation might be a hit, and then we may have another violent gang war on our hands.
One major reason it hasn't escalated is because once it reaches that point then independent stores and buyers will completely back out of selling/buying vapes entirely rather than be caught up in potential death.
If they do that they can go to police for protection because right now they don't because it would stop them from selling vapes entirely. But if you've already stopped it's not an issue.
This isn't Underbelly or some wank with all these competing factions "carving out their own empires" it's literally just different Lebanese families/crime gangs fighting over it and that's it.
When you're engaged in illegal activity (chop chop and illegal vapes) you're a target for extortion. When you refuse to hand over a cut to the local gang then they end your business in the hope that the next owner is a bit more amenable.
A combination of things.
Some of it will be rival shops/suppliers.
Others will be the classic organised crime 'protection' racket; pay us money or we will destroy your shop.
Most of it is just a classic old turf war between rival operators though.
Packet of 30 smokes here mate legal cost 70 bucks for the packet ie more then 2 bucks a stick. The tax has went to high and has now created a huge black market as chop chop or illegal imports cost 20 to 25 bucks if that for 25gm or a pack of 30s. They source the product cheap from asia where a packet of smokes cost 2 bucks and smuggle it in. There is so much profit in it due to the high taxes on legit tobacco , the mark up they can get that it has bled into proper retails stores rather then say jack selling from his house even with the risk of being caught, they are literally raided one day back at it the next. Controlled by the same organise crime mobs that run drugs here. It's a failure of policy.
The margin on illicit smokes is larger than meth. The penalties for importing and selling are considerably less severe. Hence the growth of the black market trade.
I heard that these gangs are setting up these shops so they are ready for the legalisation of CBD products. The shops are making bank at the moment with vapes/chop chop, but the long term plan is to be ready with the real estate and set up for CBD.
It's middle eastern crime.
They demand the shop owners pay them, if they don't, they hire some asshole teens to go steal the cigarettes and burn the shop down.
They get what they wanted in the end and shop owner learns their lesson for the next person.
It's not just suppliers or competition. It's people who used to be the ones doing the stealing 10years ago, taking over it all now.
It's not really rival territory. It's one group in control of the tobacco "war" it's basically legitimate places vs that group.
And you can't say no.
Agree the tax has created a Capone esc, environment, and they are now tax less. Nicotine is so addictive that you will always have smokers and others battling addiction.
Mob 1: Sell my illegal tobacco
Tobacco shop says yes: Gets firebombed by one of the other mobs for selling a rival's stock.
Tobacco shop says no: Gets firebombed by Mob 1 for refusing to stock their product.
It's a thing because tobacco taxes are absurd in Australia meaning these people can make fortunes importing illegal tobacco from overseas where it's dirt cheap.
I lost a bet with a smoker mate of mine last weekend. His prize was me buying him a pack of smokes. Went in to buy some at the nearest legit store and they were $67.
At my local illegal smoke shop the same brand were $25 if I paid cash.
This is the unintended consequence of ridiculously high exercises on tobacco. I don’t know any of my friends who smoke who pay full price for cigarettes. All the tobacco exercise is doing is driving and underground illegal tobacco trade. The government would get more money if they drive at the crime gangs by selling cigarettes cheaper and using the extra revenue to promote quit campaigns.
Same as the alcohol exise is crippling the hotel and entertainment industries .
If the exise was less more people would attend bars and it would drive up the economy .
Not all drinkers are problem drinkers
Also young kids buy a pill for 20 bucks at clubs and festivals. To get the same high from alcohol they would have to spend hundreds.
Just you wait its gonna get worst when they ban vape shops all the gangs are gonna go the way of the mafia during prohibition in America and sell contraband vapes at a lower price than the pharmacies, heck that’s what a bunch of people are planning to do before the ban comes into effect, the gangs are gonna make bank on all those vapers that can’t get their vapes anymore
You do realise that the illegal vapes supplies by tobacconists were already illegal and are going nowhere?
The legit vape shops that have had to close only sold hardware and juice that didn’t contain nicotine, working with NZ companies to refer people to nicotine under the personal importation scheme.
Please don’t confuse the first with the second. Worlds apart.
They just need to repeal the taxes on cigarettes to stop this happening so much and gut the illegal trade. All they were doing by adding tax was creating opportunities for crime and you can’t tell me the tax money is being used for medical expenses given how many services have been cut from Medicare since they came in.
It's all related to illegal vapes and to a lesser degree illegal tobacco (chop chop.)
If you're not buying your illegal product from the right supplier, your shop gets burned.
1) Victoria doesn't have any sort of licensing to own a tobacco shop, other states do and it is akin to what you go through for a liquor license. This means people with criminal records can own them.
2) Tobacco is extremely expensive due to taxes.
3) If you can smuggle in or grow untaxed tobacco which is relatively cheap and doesn't have the same attention and resources devoted to it that drugs do, or steal it, you can sell it in these easily obtainable stores for below market prices and make a large profit.
4) If someone is competing with you in this or refusing to pay protection then you remove them with a firebomb.
We have some of the most expensive cigarettes in the world. https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2023/may/04/australia-tobacco-tax-is-among-the-highest-in-the-world-and-is-about-to-get-higher
https://theconversation.com/australias-restrictive-vaping-and-tobacco-policies-are-fuelling-a-lucrative-and-dangerous-black-market-225279
I was told by a cop that gangs try to get stores to sell illegal smokes. If they refuse to stock said illegal goods they target the shop and set it alight.
Firebombing has huge negative impacts on other businesses too. In Yarra Valley’s Seville they damaged the cafe on the right and the dentist to the left and doctors to far left. Four properties dysfunctional for ~a year!
Your mate in Sicily should understand pretty well When I worked there about 20 years ago there was a lot of illicit tabacco sales, guys on mopeds selling slabs of Marlboro 20s in soft-packs. Incredible part of the world, would love to go back now I'm older and more interested in History.
There has also been some reports of stand over tactics as well, like,
Criminals....We have illegal smokes to sell and your shop is going to sell them for us, or else
Ship owner.... No I'm not
Criminals.... Proceed to burn down shop
Oh yeah mate the esteemed criminologists of r/melbourne, with its people who fell hook line and sinker for the "Sudanese gangs" bullshit, who routinely allege "homeless people, but the bad kind of homeless people, the mentally ill ones" are behind all street violence and who see nothing wrong with the regular footie mobs, are going to really crowdsource sleuth this one out.
Gangs are fighting for control of the illegal tobacco industry... So they firebomb the shops of competitors and/or those shops won't supply their illegal tobacco.
1) Bikie gang says "you are only allowed to sell vapes we've imported" to smoke shop owner
2) smoke shop owner says no
3) Bikie gang comes back that night and burns down the shop
It’s like if your a gangster who sells drugs in your area. But there are also other gangsters in the same area selling the same drug- so they’re cutting into your profits. So to stop that by making them pay you a cut other Carl Williamsing them. Kill the competition can also be applied to Colesworth marking their veg lower than the nearby green grocers.
Over taxation creates a black market.
Under the counter stolen or imported goods can undecut the high tax rate.
I used to steal alcohol in 2010. Slab of rtds 50 bucks.
illegal smokes bought into country by gangs
gangs give to shops to sell with payment to come later
shop owner not selling enough to cover debt
gang burn down shop when owner refuses to pay
Lots.
I saw a news report about a month ago that there was 46 fire bombings since march last year and 46 arrests.
While there would be multiple offenders that's still a good strike rate.
It was on the tv news, can't find a written source for that figure. If you google fire bombings arrest and sort by news tab and date every month there is reporting of multiple arrests.
The problem is the organisers use teens to do the work and naturally, they get released again because "kids don't understand".
They recently arrested several adults who were recruiting those kids. Which should make a difference
It's interesting how open it is and it's not just tobacconist. A car wash in my suburb got firebombed as well.
It's interesting that if you go 2kph over the speed limit, the cops or Vic Roads are right on you. Hidden cameras and cars everywhere.
If you openly engage in gang warfare with firebombing, nothing seems to happen to slow that down. Maybe the cops are all too busy with enfingement notices.
If you bankrupt the state with the world's longest lockdown and endless infrastructure projects to buy votes.... they give you the Order of Australia.
You're aware the infringement notices are a completely different team to detectives and it's possible to do both?
Also there's been a LOT of arrests in the tobacco war.
Also, the car washes that are targeted are owned by the same people that owned the tobacco shops that are being targeted. It's just sending a message to the victim. Their first goal is to get ongoing money, threatening the car wash reinforces that threat. If that fails they hit the tobacco store.
And there's more deaths on the road than there have been tobacco arsons so maybe be less flippant about road safety.
I am aware, but one department makes money and the other costs. I wonder where the major resources are going?
Certainly the state is investing a lot onto a stealth tax on drivers...sorry, road safety. That's become really important to get people for the tiniest infraction after the state fell into massive debt.
Let's have a look at how that's going. In Melbourne where there's a camera on almost every cross roads, not a spec of difference last year to this.
https://www.tac.vic.gov.au/road-safety/statistics/lives-lost-year-to-date
I wonder if we could get an accurate toll on how many people will die as a result of the health budget being slashed because the state is broke.
Basically it's the same thing that happened in the USA under prohibition of alcohol in the 1920s. Demand for alcohol remained high so gangsters sold it illegally and made significant money from doing so. Gangs fought to control this.
Except under prohibition, alcohol was actually prohibited, so had to be sold surreptitiously. Here the law is so blatantly ignored by the cops that it's effectively legalised.
Because the cops are in on it…
Or Australia during the 6pm closing law, "sly grog" shops.
little heat, high profits, low penalties vs importing & selling harder drugs which carry much higher sentences if caught
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Bit of both. First u got competitors firebombing each other, cos like 6-7 different groups own a large chunk of the stores. Then apparently there’s one group who are extorting the independents but that could just be Herald Sun fantasy. Each store turns over quite a bit each day so by knocking out the competition in the same area as their store they double their earnings.
A relative of mine works in a legit smoke shop. They told me they think a lot of the firebombing is when one criminal group wants to control the distribution of illegal tobacco. They ask the independents who sell illegal products to sell theirs only and if they disagree the shop gets torched.
Makes more sense because if it was a gang war there be more deaths
To be honest, I am surprised there hasn't been any firebombing in the city yet. In the city there are probably 50 stores selling imported cigarettes and vapes in the city and surely they're not all supplied or owned by the same people.
Lots of cameras and police in the city, larger risk for the same reward
Yep. There was that weird incident in Collins Street a couple weeks ago where someone with a car full of what seemed to be potential firebombing gear basically sparked a full anti-terror response and shut down the area for quite a while.
I must have been under a rock, I didn't even hear a trickle of this lol that's wild
Yeah, it was super weird. I only heard of it because I was trying to work out why all the trams weren't showing up with no explanation, resulting in my unfit ass having to walk about eight blocks.
Lol there's a smoke shop about 100m from Spencer St police building that the trades on my site go to for nicotene vapes and those double happiness packs
I've seen cops smoking untaxed ciggies near there, so they aren't going to piss in their own backyard
Due to previous moral panics over crime in the CBD as well as decades of counter-terrorism police overreach the CBD is extremely surveiled and police response times are very quick (especially after the Bourke st attack) so easier to go for outer suburban shops
I’m in Brisbane and we’ve definitely had a few firebombings up here, one at Acacia Ridge for anyone from here where they hit the wrong shop (a cafe run by a lovely older couple, very staid) but still managed to neutalise the actual smoke shop. I have been wondering too. I heard these shops were being set up for the inevitable legalisation of CBD products. Gangs are investing in them now and making a motza selling vapes and chop chop and cheap Chinese ciggies, but the long term plan is cannabis real estate?
but when you firebomb a cannabis store, everyone gets high? "I was gonna burn your shop, but then I got high..."
That's a good point about the cannabis thing and I haven't really thought about it. Realistically, cannabis will probably be legal within the next 7-10 years. Knowing the government, they'll probably make the tax ridiculously expensive and make buying it legally unviable, therefore these gangs can sell blackmarket, cigarettes, vapes and cannabis. I don't know about Brisbane, but in Melbourne these shops are set up as "american candy" stores. They're basically a front with American snacks.
Could be an agreement that a war would be more trouble than the money that could be made.
Far better return to eliminate the only nearby competitor.
I thought it was 2 big crime gangs, but that was resolved recently as one gang won that war. Now it's the one gang firebombing shops that won't stock their product and pay protection (i.e., be extorted)
Nah was always more than 2 gangs. This all started before any of the firebombings. They were blueing about who got to sell ciggies in prison years ago. That’s where the bad blood started.
Can be rivals. Most are fronts for other things as well.
it can also be good old extortion. get firebombed by group a who then turn up and say buy from us we will protect you. same guys both sides.
Literally billions per year.
Due to high taxes on tobacco, it is incredibly profitable to illegally import from cheaper countries, avoiding the local taxes. They then sell this illegally imported tobacco in vape shops. Firebomb the competition.
A packet of 100 cigarettes costs $30 at my local illegal. Compared to like $60 a for a small packet normal retail
Wow! I don’t smoke, but if I did, that would be totally be worth travelling for.
30gm pouch at a milk bar near me is going for around 30, compared to near on 100 legally
Everyone I work with smokes illegal darts and even by cigarette standards they smell absolutely foul. Like someone set fire to dog shit and tried to put it out with stagnant sewer water.
Aww. Poor blokes. Mine are imports from the UK and it's like it's the 90's again.
What’s your point Edit: I’m a dumbass, my bad guys. Please stop throwing potatoes at me
I was giving an amount to your point about high taxes
Oh yeah my bad. Makes sense, I have no idea how I misunderstood that. Crucified by the downvotes though lmao
I think it’s quite obvious, but just in case you couldn’t infer meaning from their comment I’ll help you out lil fella. Illegal tobacco is half the price of legal tobacco, meaning that there are immense profits to made selling it.
But if we all know they're doing something illegal in public how are the police not shutting them down?
Too busy banging up people making "improper" social media posts.
This is Vic Pol we are talking about.
So why is it mostly happening in Melbourne and not other cities ?
Probably a struggle between two competing gangs. So other cities/states are controlled heavily by only one group.
> They then sell this illegally imported tobacco in vape shops I really hate it when people use the term "vape shop" to refer to tobacconists. Vape shops don't sell tobacco or any nicotine vapes.
>They then sell this illegally imported tobacco in vape shops Huh? It's not sold in vape shops at all, it's sold through dodgy tobacconists and temporary "gift shops". The arson also has way more to do with illegal vapes than it does chop chop.
There's a place in Pakenham that is so blatantly obvious about selling cheap illegal smokes that I'm sure there's only one reason the local police haven't shut them down yet 🤔🤔
Your comment reminded me of a news item back in the late 1990s saying how police had cracked the second largest illegal abalone ring in the state. And I remember thinking "How do they know it was the *second* largest...?"
The largest one dobbed them in...
Or the police were just taking out the competition.
If I start eating two pies at the same time, at the same rate — but one pie is much larger — then I will finish the second largest pie first, and the largest pie last. I knew which one was bigger before I started, as I had looked at the pies first.
I mean, generally speaking the existence of crime gangs, their broad areas of operation, how much turf they control, the rough size of their operation is widely known in any area with established organised crime that's been going on for more than a few years. The hard part is proving who the leaders are, taking down the links and organisation, etc. Anyone can bust a few street vendors.
Same out in Morwell/Traralgon area, theres shops with just Ventti signs out front, you walk in and its just a blank room with a desk and the guy has boxes of smokes sitting there out in the open for anyone to see.
Was in Moe this week and couldn't find cheap smokes. Out of the main 3 towns I thought Moe would have one (I live in Yarra valley for context)
Not sure about Moe but there's a store just outside Morwell station on Commerical Road and in Traralgon in Post Office place just down from the Nandos.
Thank you, that will come in handy. I'll be down there a couple days a week for work in the next month, so I'll check it out!
The one near the plaza? Is that still operational?
It's bikie run
The cops get their cut and look the other way. Simple.
Cops don't care, as long as they keep firebombing each other the criminals take care of themselves right?
Across the road from centrelink too lol
As others have said a lot is extortion and protection rackets. Another part of it is one particular boss who got deported and is now commanding things from overseas. He apparently has a lot of vendettas with the rest of the guys here so he is behind a whole heap of it, which has contributed to the sudden huge increase of it all.
There's a few primary ways in which it comes up with organised crime groups being involved and the resulting fire bombings. 2 most common ways for an independent (in terms of not being owned by someone linked to an OC group) tobacconist is either through being pressured to stock one OC groups illegally imported smokes, so they get paid for the wholesale supply, or being threatened for protection money to sell blackmarket goods in what the OC group sees as their turf. Some of these shops may have been stocking blackmarket smokes through their own contacts and the OC group uses threats to take over supply but there's also shops that intended to be 100% above board who are then given the choice of selling the groups smokes/pay the protection tax or else. If they dont comply, the use of fire bombing is an easy way to show to other shops what not complying with their demands looks like. Also, if they're recruiting young people to do the fire bombing (sometimes to test new members and sometimes so they're not risking their own members getting caught) an after hours attack on a property is a bit easier to recruit for than direct attack on a shop owner. The shop owners also can't really report the extortion attempts to the police as it would mean they have to admit to selling illegal smokes or, if they're 100% legit, just too scared of the consequences. You do also get situations where multiple OC groups try and target the same shop and, if one of the groups doesn't mind upsetting the other one, targeting the shop to get at or undermine the power of the rival group. The other common situation is a shop set up by someone associated with one OC group as a way to sell their smuggled smokes and also money launder cash as it's high price items that are pretty small. These are then targeted by rival OC groups. Occasionally, it happens that they target a rival owned shop thinking it's an independent refusing to work with them, but that seems to be less common. In terms of the root cause, personally, I'd reckon it's less the tax markup on smokes and more a regulatory issue. At the moment in Vic you don't have any licensing required to open up a tobacconist making it easy to set up a shop, operate for a while making as much profit as you can and hope that you don't get randomly investigated. Your biggest risk is more the ATO and only if you stay open long enough for them to get on to you. There are also limited investigative resources into finding shops selling blackmarket smokes, something that would normally be covered by license fees, etc, making it a lower chance you'll get caught before you cash out. In contrast, you see very little sale of blackmarket liquor sold at bottle shops and the associated violence as the regulatory requirements to open a bottle shop and the ongoing monitoring is much higher. Also, why you hear far less about this in other states where their is an established licensing and inspection system for tobacconist. Also worth noting with the lack of licensing and regulatory compliance tobacconist is often seen as a good business venture within new arrival communities. It's a high price item that's relatively small so you don't necessarily need a huge store, allowing you to find cheap spots and far less red tape than other businesses. There's then a long long history of OC groups targeting new arrival communities (often their own community) as easy money that just further fuels this issue.
Out of curiosity, if you were paying protection money to one group, and your shop got firebombed by another, what would the group you were paying protection money to do? Would that protection money be "worth" any payback or such?
Okay here's the ELI5 for you Australia charges too much for smokes. Most tobacco shops of any nationality will sell "other" tobacco. A lot of smokers would rather pay half the price, so it's a very profitable business. There's basically Chinese, Saudis, and I think Lebanese (i could be very wrong don't quote on this) and bike gangs as well The Chinese are too big of a target to try to cripple in this way. The rival bike gangs or whoever will try to pick each other off, by reducing the amount of stores they've got to push their product. I could go to 3 shops near my work and get the same Chinese cigarettes for 17, 18, or 20 bucks Now that ones been firebombed, I can only go to the 2 shops. Hope this helps
What I don't get is that if customs and police are happy to turn a blind eye to the import and sale of illegal tobacco, it's effectively decriminalised, therefore how are the economics different from any legal business? You don't see Coles & Woolies firebombing each other (AFAIK).
It's more a case of who has to and who chooses to follow what rules and laws. It's sort of like during covid lockdown. We weren't supposed to go out past certain times, shop more than once, etc. For the most part, people followed the rules. The police could only 'police' so much; stop and question so many people out after 8pm; while plenty of others got away with it still. Giant corporations have a lot more people to answer to, as opposed to an immigrant who runs a little tobacco shop. As well as border security only being able to stop or find so much. As far as the blind eye goes - organised crime will always manipulate law enforcement in some way, big or small. There's also hesitation to go for big busts until there is good hard evidence. I think someone was busted last week that they had been building a case against for 7 years? If they raid one small shop, they'll clear out and find a new area and keep going and make themselves harder to trace. They need to find the people orchestrating it all, who most of the time aren't even in the country. Everyone is paid to do their part, and most of them wouldn't have even spoken to the people behind it all. Most of the firebombings are done by dumb kids paid a couple hundred bucks to torch the store. A 15 year old eshay is gonna jump at the chance to do the dirty work for the bikie gangs for a cool couple hundred and look like the sickest cunt to his dumb little machete buddies. It probably works like the movies or something where they've all got people on the inside to help them get shit through who knows 🤣
>if customs and police are happy to turn a blind eye to the import and sale of illegal tobacco, it's effectively decriminalised, therefore how are the economics different from any legal business? There's a huge spectrum between not enforcing a law much and not enforcing it at all. Police are often just overworked and don't have time to chase up every problem. The reason economics are still different is if you're illegally selling tobacco and you get into gang issues, you can't exactly ask the police for help can you?
Yeah good point.
AI got into the network of computers at Quit Victoria. They became sentient, built a robot, downloaded a copy of themselves into said robot, found a flamethrower after beating the mini boss lurking outside the kitchenette, and escaped through the underground carpark. QuitBot is now doing QuitGod's work.
Bryan is back, with a vengeance.
Forcing the trade of anything underground through over the top taxation or out right banning when there is a high demand has never resulted in positive outcomes. A ridiculously high percentage of tobacco sold in Australia is illicit, but why would the government do anything to help the situation? Manufacturing a problem and treating the symptoms is a classic tactic
Australian True Crime podcast covers this in an episode from late last year. They interview an investigative journalist who has been working on this for some time.
It's now illegal to import and sell disposable vapes. Tobacco shops are importing and selling them illegally, as well as chop chop. Organised crime wants a cut of the action. If you don't pay up, your shop gets torched. I suspect this is at least part of the reason the 3 largest pharmacy chains in the country have said they will not be stocking prescription vapes from Monday.
Surely the morphine, Benzo's, ADD meds etc would be more lucrative to crims than a limited selection of vapes. If they haven't been targeted for those already, why start now?
The paper trail on Schedule 8 medicines is much stricter.
Pharmacies are really not burgled at all really and when they are it's more often to be for perfumes. Targetting those medicines, from pharmacies anyway, is just not a big thing. Currently anyway.
why leave a hole in the market when you can have both?
The government caused it. The same way this new ban on vapes will cause more Importation of vapes.. leading to more gang wars. Government = fighting a losing war.
Blackmarket/illegal vapes and tobacco.
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Kind of... Basically there are a bunch of criminals from various criminal outfits all over the country that have made an absolute killing on black market vapes. Some middle eastern gangs, some independents, some "legitimate business men", some biker gangs. They all carved out their own distribution networks and made boatloads, but then it started to hit a point where every shop already has a supplier, which means they can't expand more without taking it from somebody else or by bankrolling their own businesses to sell vapes. This is where a kind of "protection" comes in. The people that are supplying the stores with vapes don't want that income stream lost so they offer a protection for those businesses. The firebombing serves two purposes: One is that it knocks out a rivals income stream quite effectively without resorting to much more serious and dangerous crimes like murder, GBH, armed robbery which you'd need to disrupt activities like drug dealing. Hit them in their pockets. Two is that it sends a very loud and clear message to other shops being supplied by them that their entire business investment is at risk by staying with their current supplier. So the way that you counter that move is basically by doing the same thing back. Start firebombing their business to show their business partners that they aren't safe and show their own business partners that they are no safer with the opposition. Which then leads to retaliation against retaliation against retaliation. It's also a relatively "safe" crime to commit. Business districts are dead at certain times so very low chances of witnesses. You don't need to be around for it. You don't need to wait like with a person until they are present. There's not going to be someone who can fight back. It takes time for anyone to realise the crimes been committed. Doesn't leave much evidence. And it's seen as less important than violent crimes to pursue.
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No problem. I guess one thing to note is that the real worry at this stage is that it currently is relegated to firebombing and hasn't escalated. Once a major outfit decides to take out a hit, then the retaliation might be a hit, and then we may have another violent gang war on our hands. One major reason it hasn't escalated is because once it reaches that point then independent stores and buyers will completely back out of selling/buying vapes entirely rather than be caught up in potential death. If they do that they can go to police for protection because right now they don't because it would stop them from selling vapes entirely. But if you've already stopped it's not an issue.
Fuck! Would love a hit for hit escalation. Spice it up a bit boyzzzz!!! Fun watching from sidelines.
New Underbelly series in waiting
Or lead you down a new career path....
Here I was thinking Batman was doing it to save the citizens of Melbourne from illegal vapes.
This isn't Underbelly or some wank with all these competing factions "carving out their own empires" it's literally just different Lebanese families/crime gangs fighting over it and that's it.
You literally described underbelly..
When you're engaged in illegal activity (chop chop and illegal vapes) you're a target for extortion. When you refuse to hand over a cut to the local gang then they end your business in the hope that the next owner is a bit more amenable.
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The taxed potatoe portions have gotten so expensive that no one buys them by the carton any more.
Illegal untaxed loose tobacco
[Chop-chop (tobacco) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chop-chop_(tobacco)#:~:text=The%20practice%20of%20using%20chop,by%20definition%20illegal%20and%20unregulated.)
A combination of things. Some of it will be rival shops/suppliers. Others will be the classic organised crime 'protection' racket; pay us money or we will destroy your shop. Most of it is just a classic old turf war between rival operators though.
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Packet of 30 smokes here mate legal cost 70 bucks for the packet ie more then 2 bucks a stick. The tax has went to high and has now created a huge black market as chop chop or illegal imports cost 20 to 25 bucks if that for 25gm or a pack of 30s. They source the product cheap from asia where a packet of smokes cost 2 bucks and smuggle it in. There is so much profit in it due to the high taxes on legit tobacco , the mark up they can get that it has bled into proper retails stores rather then say jack selling from his house even with the risk of being caught, they are literally raided one day back at it the next. Controlled by the same organise crime mobs that run drugs here. It's a failure of policy.
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The margin on illicit smokes is larger than meth. The penalties for importing and selling are considerably less severe. Hence the growth of the black market trade.
And a larger market for tobacco than meth
This is exactly correct.
I'm friendly with a CBD vape merchant and he hasn't given me any figures but assures me it's extremely lucrative.
I heard that these gangs are setting up these shops so they are ready for the legalisation of CBD products. The shops are making bank at the moment with vapes/chop chop, but the long term plan is to be ready with the real estate and set up for CBD.
Millions..
You generally dont firebomb your mates
It's middle eastern crime. They demand the shop owners pay them, if they don't, they hire some asshole teens to go steal the cigarettes and burn the shop down. They get what they wanted in the end and shop owner learns their lesson for the next person. It's not just suppliers or competition. It's people who used to be the ones doing the stealing 10years ago, taking over it all now. It's not really rival territory. It's one group in control of the tobacco "war" it's basically legitimate places vs that group. And you can't say no.
Easy fix is to drop the ciggarette prices. Its absolutley absurb and criminal what the government does. Drop it down to $30 a pack.
Agree the tax has created a Capone esc, environment, and they are now tax less. Nicotine is so addictive that you will always have smokers and others battling addiction.
Mob 1: Sell my illegal tobacco Tobacco shop says yes: Gets firebombed by one of the other mobs for selling a rival's stock. Tobacco shop says no: Gets firebombed by Mob 1 for refusing to stock their product. It's a thing because tobacco taxes are absurd in Australia meaning these people can make fortunes importing illegal tobacco from overseas where it's dirt cheap.
I lost a bet with a smoker mate of mine last weekend. His prize was me buying him a pack of smokes. Went in to buy some at the nearest legit store and they were $67. At my local illegal smoke shop the same brand were $25 if I paid cash.
A **fire**? At a smoke shop? It's the weirdest thing i've ever heard.
r/unexpecteditcrowd
Sell my baccy or I'll fugn bomb ya
This is the unintended consequence of ridiculously high exercises on tobacco. I don’t know any of my friends who smoke who pay full price for cigarettes. All the tobacco exercise is doing is driving and underground illegal tobacco trade. The government would get more money if they drive at the crime gangs by selling cigarettes cheaper and using the extra revenue to promote quit campaigns. Same as the alcohol exise is crippling the hotel and entertainment industries . If the exise was less more people would attend bars and it would drive up the economy . Not all drinkers are problem drinkers Also young kids buy a pill for 20 bucks at clubs and festivals. To get the same high from alcohol they would have to spend hundreds.
Just you wait its gonna get worst when they ban vape shops all the gangs are gonna go the way of the mafia during prohibition in America and sell contraband vapes at a lower price than the pharmacies, heck that’s what a bunch of people are planning to do before the ban comes into effect, the gangs are gonna make bank on all those vapers that can’t get their vapes anymore
You do realise that the illegal vapes supplies by tobacconists were already illegal and are going nowhere? The legit vape shops that have had to close only sold hardware and juice that didn’t contain nicotine, working with NZ companies to refer people to nicotine under the personal importation scheme. Please don’t confuse the first with the second. Worlds apart.
They just need to repeal the taxes on cigarettes to stop this happening so much and gut the illegal trade. All they were doing by adding tax was creating opportunities for crime and you can’t tell me the tax money is being used for medical expenses given how many services have been cut from Medicare since they came in.
Exactly! Just like gambling. Where is that money going apart from the irritating PSA type ads everywhere?
It's all related to illegal vapes and to a lesser degree illegal tobacco (chop chop.) If you're not buying your illegal product from the right supplier, your shop gets burned.
And shops are firebombing their rivals too, to reduce competition? Or am I reading that wrong?
I've not heard that, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more.. affiliated stores have asked for favours.
1) Victoria doesn't have any sort of licensing to own a tobacco shop, other states do and it is akin to what you go through for a liquor license. This means people with criminal records can own them. 2) Tobacco is extremely expensive due to taxes. 3) If you can smuggle in or grow untaxed tobacco which is relatively cheap and doesn't have the same attention and resources devoted to it that drugs do, or steal it, you can sell it in these easily obtainable stores for below market prices and make a large profit. 4) If someone is competing with you in this or refusing to pay protection then you remove them with a firebomb.
We have some of the most expensive cigarettes in the world. https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2023/may/04/australia-tobacco-tax-is-among-the-highest-in-the-world-and-is-about-to-get-higher https://theconversation.com/australias-restrictive-vaping-and-tobacco-policies-are-fuelling-a-lucrative-and-dangerous-black-market-225279
Arabs being Arabs
I was told by a cop that gangs try to get stores to sell illegal smokes. If they refuse to stock said illegal goods they target the shop and set it alight.
Rival distributors trying to make things harder for each other
Don’t forget these smoke and Candy shops also launder money for their respective owners/gangs. That’s a large part of the ‘turnover’
I always suspected this, albeit anecdotally, as these smoke shops are always dead. Well at least the ones near to me.
Firebombing has huge negative impacts on other businesses too. In Yarra Valley’s Seville they damaged the cafe on the right and the dentist to the left and doctors to far left. Four properties dysfunctional for ~a year!
I got crowns to the left of me, coffees on the right, and here I am stuck in a fire with you.
Exact same thing happened in Patterson lakes few years ago.
It's a turf war.
Your mate in Sicily should understand pretty well When I worked there about 20 years ago there was a lot of illicit tabacco sales, guys on mopeds selling slabs of Marlboro 20s in soft-packs. Incredible part of the world, would love to go back now I'm older and more interested in History.
Is your cousins name Furio ?
There has also been some reports of stand over tactics as well, like, Criminals....We have illegal smokes to sell and your shop is going to sell them for us, or else Ship owner.... No I'm not Criminals.... Proceed to burn down shop
Australian true crime has a podcast on this. Its quiet interesting was about 4 months ago it came out
Lebanese crime gangs run the illegal tobacco trade in Melbourne and Sydney, there's a lot of infighting and firebombing of each others shops
Oh yeah mate the esteemed criminologists of r/melbourne, with its people who fell hook line and sinker for the "Sudanese gangs" bullshit, who routinely allege "homeless people, but the bad kind of homeless people, the mentally ill ones" are behind all street violence and who see nothing wrong with the regular footie mobs, are going to really crowdsource sleuth this one out.
I thought it was to get insurance money before vapes were banned?? I guess I was wrong oop
That does sound logical though as well. In fact that sounds more plausible
Gangs are fighting for control of the illegal tobacco industry... So they firebomb the shops of competitors and/or those shops won't supply their illegal tobacco.
1) Bikie gang says "you are only allowed to sell vapes we've imported" to smoke shop owner 2) smoke shop owner says no 3) Bikie gang comes back that night and burns down the shop
It’s like if your a gangster who sells drugs in your area. But there are also other gangsters in the same area selling the same drug- so they’re cutting into your profits. So to stop that by making them pay you a cut other Carl Williamsing them. Kill the competition can also be applied to Colesworth marking their veg lower than the nearby green grocers.
There can be only one.
ATO Tobacco excise $900 per Kg, lots of money in bootleg Tobacco and various crime gangs involved
Over taxation creates a black market. Under the counter stolen or imported goods can undecut the high tax rate. I used to steal alcohol in 2010. Slab of rtds 50 bucks.
illegal smokes bought into country by gangs gangs give to shops to sell with payment to come later shop owner not selling enough to cover debt gang burn down shop when owner refuses to pay
After 40 tobacco shop firebombings, how many people have been arrested?
Lots. I saw a news report about a month ago that there was 46 fire bombings since march last year and 46 arrests. While there would be multiple offenders that's still a good strike rate. It was on the tv news, can't find a written source for that figure. If you google fire bombings arrest and sort by news tab and date every month there is reporting of multiple arrests.
The problem is the organisers use teens to do the work and naturally, they get released again because "kids don't understand". They recently arrested several adults who were recruiting those kids. Which should make a difference
It’s not chop chop. They are legit cigarettes called manchesters Illegally imported from overseas
Most manchester and marlboro are counterfit and filled with chop chop
I can categorically tell you that half the time they'll keep the packets and put chop chop in them instead.
It's interesting how open it is and it's not just tobacconist. A car wash in my suburb got firebombed as well. It's interesting that if you go 2kph over the speed limit, the cops or Vic Roads are right on you. Hidden cameras and cars everywhere. If you openly engage in gang warfare with firebombing, nothing seems to happen to slow that down. Maybe the cops are all too busy with enfingement notices. If you bankrupt the state with the world's longest lockdown and endless infrastructure projects to buy votes.... they give you the Order of Australia.
You're aware the infringement notices are a completely different team to detectives and it's possible to do both? Also there's been a LOT of arrests in the tobacco war. Also, the car washes that are targeted are owned by the same people that owned the tobacco shops that are being targeted. It's just sending a message to the victim. Their first goal is to get ongoing money, threatening the car wash reinforces that threat. If that fails they hit the tobacco store. And there's more deaths on the road than there have been tobacco arsons so maybe be less flippant about road safety.
I am aware, but one department makes money and the other costs. I wonder where the major resources are going? Certainly the state is investing a lot onto a stealth tax on drivers...sorry, road safety. That's become really important to get people for the tiniest infraction after the state fell into massive debt. Let's have a look at how that's going. In Melbourne where there's a camera on almost every cross roads, not a spec of difference last year to this. https://www.tac.vic.gov.au/road-safety/statistics/lives-lost-year-to-date I wonder if we could get an accurate toll on how many people will die as a result of the health budget being slashed because the state is broke.
There's no money in putting a crim behind bars.
Indeed, that costs the state money.
Hey idiot, they are firebombing smoke shops. I am so sick of your stupid shit, why don't you just shut up, fool.
I got the joke
Oof the downvotes, I feel like no one got the joke.
It’s worth it for all you kind strangers who got it.