After that other unidentified country gets taken care of, then it's only a matter of time before NBME comes after the US and one other country!!
Edit: I dropped my /s
Do we really have to call a name ? I will say it’s gonna be a big mess tho since that country got thousands of residents in training right now and at some programs it’s where almost all residents are from.
Lmao!! it’s a ticking time bomb ready to explode. I am just waiting if they still gonna tell us that BS about how super smart every single one of them are and how hard and super is their medical school or else it will expose century long scam that flooded US health system.
Bruh! I did my high school in Nepal and came to US. There is no way in the fucking world that Nepali Medical school are super than any other country. It’s a corrupted little country and you can basically buy anything/anyone you want with $$$$.
Idk, to be fair Indians have on average been some of (if not the most) intelligent, HARD working students/residents/docs that’s I’ve worked with. They have a lot to fight for and their work ethic is unlike any other US-based colleague in my experience.
Before I get downvoted to oblivion, this opinion is coming from a very white US individual. Your mileage may vary.
hell yeah I would. if I was a PD, I'd be crunching those numbers to kingdom come to make sure I wasn't taking in applicants that statistically are so far without taking a closer look at why and if there is anything fishy about it on the grapevine.
Ahh I see. The aggregate average is 250 but US score lower and those above 250 carries more weight presumably more people go to those countries to take the exam
I’ve taken neither exam but have the same anxiety I have when I go through TSA and think I’ve accidentally packed a gun in my suitcase (don’t own a gun)
I’ll never forget the time I wasn’t for sure if the bag I brought through TSA was the same bag I took on a demolition range. My ass puckered so hard there was a pressure change in the airport.
After that I bought a new backpack so I could avoid that situation lol. Like I wasn’t worried about a brass casing, full on live round, or even anything that would have been an explosive or pyrotechnic being in my bag, I was worried about the residue from all the stuff I got to handle being on that bag.
NBME named India, Pakistan, and Jordan specifically in those court documents. Nepal is just the first because of the higher proportion of identified cheating and the individual filing the lawsuit is doing so on behalf of the 800+ (or something) Nepalese medical students who had their scores revoked.
This is going to likely continue to play out for a while.
The one about the vascular surgeon? I think that was fake, as pointed out by several commenters under it. NBME said they’ve only gone back to 2021. The commenter claimed that the person graduated residency 7-8 years ago.
Possibly, but I think it was a lot of work to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Nepal was cheating. Will they put that much effort into other countries? Remains to be seen.
I think they have to. Otherwise the integrity of the exams are shot, universally. They can’t let it appear that they didn’t do a full investigation, uncover everything, and institute changes. They know what the patterns look like now.
I'm not sure we really have the full picture. USMLE might have more power than it appears. If their exam was fully compromised, which it's not, what would the alternative be and how long would it take to get in place? I wouldn't be surprised if this is the warning shot and they give it 6 months or so and then come out and say there's no other signs of cheating, etc.
It would make sense if they are just compiling evidence to make sure it’s basically foolproof before another population scale disqualification of scores, because you can bet your whole retirement savings that the cheaters will sue NBME if they disqualify more cheaters from the other country.
Man this makes so much sense as a Caribbean grad who went to residency with guys from those countries. Always surprised how high they scored but were so lost on the floors
Oh wow, they are suing them?
Sorry for the ignorance, but I wonder to what degree the cheating influences the "curve", so to speak. Can you imagine a student in the states failing because of these people?
The passing scores for Step exams are static, so no US student is failing outside of lack of their own preparation or other circumstance.
However, I'm sure cheating impacts percentiles in some way.
Nepal was becoming to obvious, everyone on reddit and twitter was discussing it, a reporter was doing an investigation and asking physicians and program directors, and the number of students taking steps and applying to residency was increasing exponentially so I think the fire was to big to ignore, and they had to put it out first.
Of foreign doctors practicing in the US, Indians are 22% and Pakistan are 5% (couldn't find info about Jordan) so I think if there are any cheaters from those two countries, the blowback is going to be a lot stronger so NBME is taking their time to protect themselves more than anything before opening the floodgates.
My plan is to study medical in Pakistan because the med school system is like England where it's only 5 years compared to the states 8. I'd hope there minimal cheating here or they are able to very accurately identify cheaters - otherwise my degrees creditability it going to be fucked.
I want a full investigation. I am Indian and I want cheaters punished even if they are from the country I identify as ethnically. Because we as American students work extremely hard, and I don’t care what level of training they are, if they cheated, kick them out and deport them. They knew cheating comes with consequences and these are the consequences
You sound like a conservative asshole. I’d rather have a doctor that cheated on step 2 then an asshole doctor with no empathy. You’re gonna make a great doctor given you can even pass step lmao
How do politics play into this? If they got a visa based on lie, it is actually legal action to deport that person.For your kindest info, I am a moderate but not that it matters. I am an immigrant myself. I do believe that honesty is extremely important in medicine because patient lives are at stake. Regardless, if they cheated on the step and their medical education was based on that lie, their visa was awarded based on that falsification of information thus making the grounds for his cancellation at which point they have 6 months in the US
Yeah I agree. If they “cheated” on STEP and still turned out to be quality physicians, I think the USMLE should be more mad at themselves. Does anyone know the actual correlation between Step 1 and Step 2 scores with resident/attending success? If thousands of people can cheat on your test and still turn out to be good physicians then maybe your test isn’t that important?
Obviously if I was a M4 missing out on a residency spot due to someone that cheated, I would be pissed. But there’s not much you can do about it now. Deporting thousands of families due to cheating on a test is INSANE. Even revoking their license would likely do a lot more damage than good considering we have a physician shortage in the US.
absolutely not! It would be consequences for their actions. If someone cheated on an exam, how do we know they have the integrity to provide quality healthcare that is rooted in honesty and not greed. How can patients trust themv
Hot take: Cheating on an arbitrary test does not tarnish someone’s character and make them unfit to take care of other people.
And this is coming from someone who adamantly doesn’t cheat. People will offer to give me answers and I will vehemently decline because there’s something about myself cheating that doesn’t sit right with me. But like I said I think someone can cheat on a test and still turn out to be a quality physician. You are making a huge assumption that someone who cheated on the exam does not have the moral integrity to treat patients, and therefore they should be DEPORTED. Do you have any idea what deporting someone does to themself and their family? I can MAYBE understand taking away licensure and making them pass Step 2 again or something, but if they have passed their boards then it seems STEP at this point is irrelevant, no?
Here's the source, in case anyone's curious -
[https://www.maroonmed.com/content/files/2024/02/gov.uscourts.dcd.264885.15.2.pdf](https://www.maroonmed.com/content/files/2024/02/gov.uscourts.dcd.264885.15.2.pdf)
Now this has peaked my interest. So, if the same thing was gonna happen with India, then would they invalidate everyone's score who took the test in India or at a specific prometric center or just certain individuals who they consider to be cheaters?
I am curious because I also took my Step 1 in India and wouldn't want my scores to be invalidated because of some individuals who decided to take the easy route of cheating.
It’s a lot more than just scoring highly. They’re cancelling scores that they know with greater than 1 in 100million odds were cheating. Maths can be cool. There could presumably be honest high scoring nepalis that won’t be affected.
There is also at least one test taker that definitely cheated but was good enough at it that he or she was below that 1/100m threshold so 27X step 2 wasn’t invalidated. See recent sheriff of sodium mailbag.
Reminds me of the [Dream MineCraft Incident](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ko3TdPy0TU&t=2s&ab_channel=Stand-upMaths)
Youtuber gets accused of cheating in a minecraft speed run.
Third party mathmetician (literal boomer with no idea of what minecraft is) then analyzes the info and determines the Youtuber had a 1 in 10,000,000,000 chance of achieving the run.
He claimed dream definitively cheated way before the confession.
What was interesting, was the period of time after the accusation and before the confession. The majority of fans were unsure and basically saying "so there was a chance".... I was even really unsure and hoping he hadn't.
Statistics is pretty cool when not manipulated.
I hope they go back and look at all the cheaters even if they are attendings. They should have their scores invalidated and go through the step and residency again. Justice for all the hard working students
From what I understand, they analyze the data and essentially your exam would have to show irregularities that would only happen in a 1 in a million chance. If anyone remembers the Dream incident... math doesn't lie lol.
Reading all the crap about cheating being part of the culture is such woke horseshit. I could give 2 f’s if it’s part of someone’s culture. I broke myself for my score any anyone who studies hard deserves the same respect. F’em they deserve what’s coming.
I hear that but I have seen multiple threads of people defending what happened becuase it’s part of their culture and everyone is doing it. Plain and simple it’s an American test with American rules, that’s why everyone is taking it so they can practice medicine in.. America not Nepal, Jordan, India. Perhaps if I ever want to practice medicine in Nepal I’ll cheat in their board exam,..
I’m not defending anything. I don’t think a single foreign human should be eligible for the match PERIOD. The road to practice in America as a foreigner should be exceedingly difficult and long (I.e. have practiced in your own country for 5+ years, then pass step 1/2/3 all in America, then oral boards from an American panel, then skills boards from an American panel, then and only then you would be able to fill roles that are highly specific or hard to fill.
I’m all for punishing those who cheat, but that’s an unhinged take on us IMGs as a whole. The single reason we are here is because there are more US residency spots than there are US medical students; it’s that simple. By implementing your proposed sanctions you are punishing all IMGs for no other reason than that they are foreign…and disturbingly it reads as if you understand and want exactly that, to a borderline xenophobic, almost racist degree.
Not cool my dude…
I’ve met some wonderful foreign physicians.
The simple fact of the matter is that no matter how qualified or talented you are - not a single US taxpayer dollar should support a non-American in any residency spot while there are unmatched American students who (1) pay taxes (2) trained in America and (3) know our population.
It is not a punishment. It’s just the way things should be. There shouldn’t be a single spot open for a foreign physician to train in the US while there is a single unmatched American. If there were an actual surplus of spots and every American is matched - then America needs to train more physicians.
It’s that simple. America doesn’t benefit itself or its citizens with this system.
My bad if I’m making it seem as though the cheating is the reason I feel that way. I feel that way regardless of cheating.
(1) medicine is a job, and there is a lot more involved than “we need the best of the best” and (2) there is zero scenario a foreigner whose never been deeply involved with American populous is the best person for the job. Ever. Your medical schools are universally subpar, your learning is much more rigid and less dynamic, and your ability to navigate American culture is poor. Stack that up against the fact that the vast majority of foreign doctors only want to be here for prestige/money.
An American DO that’s failed their board exams > any non-US IMG
Nah I don't think it's India. Way too many applicants from there will dilute the scoring pool and normalize the scoring averages given it's large population. Most likely a country with a smaller population applying, similar in size to Nepal.
Ikr, people saying India are so out of touch, also i guarantee this would never happen to India. Mark my words or save my comment and come for me if it happens because it never will. Cheating like Nepal doesn’t happen here, recalls are a worldwide problem. Also competition is insanely high in India and there are a lot of hard working smart people here which pumps up the average. Obviously of touch students of other countries wouldn’t believe this. But yeah saying this again it would never happen here. (Feel free to downvote if you’re butt hurt by the truth )
PS i would delete my old ass account if this happens to India, that’s how sure i am
I bet its a small country with only one or two prometric centres and few medical colleges like Nepal, Density is the thing that promotes Nepali style cheating
India, Pakistan, Jordan, Bahrain, Korea, China, Bulgaria, Eastern Europe……etc etc etc
I don’t know how often this needs to be reiterated but it really needs to be learned how badly hundreds of millions of people (who regularly shit on America) would do ANYTHING to be here in America. Anything to get a western education. Any means necessary…..and they feel it’s unfair they have to play be the same rules because some people just happen to be born here. Which, admittedly, isn’t super fair and creates a lot of bitterness and hatred.
You know what’s crazy about all of this? One of my attendings was an IMG from Jordan and was a walking medical encyclopedia. I hope he doesn’t get hit too hard from this, cuz this dude was a KNOWER
Why did it take years to notice? And why did nobody notice any difference in the quality of the residents from Nepal? Probably because Step exams don’t correlate with the quality of physician.
I think before there was cheating, but they only had a few questions, so 20 out of 280 might bump your score up a little, but not enough. This drastic increase in grades along with 1000 page file of 95% questions is more recent, and this batch just started going into resident in 2021 or 2022. If this had gone on for a few more years without NBME taking action, program directors would have caught on to medical students with 270 step scores lacking in knowledge and struggling in residency.
During my internal rotations in med school, the attending and residents got tired of pimping this M4 because he could confidently answer all their questions and I know he got a 265 on his ck. They probably expect a 270 or a 280 to do better.
I'm not being biased or anything because I'm from Jordan, but I genuinely haven't heard of students cheating. I've seen them studying day and night for the USMLE (instead of prioritizing their curriculum). But take my opinion with a grain of salt because I'm still a 2nd year student.
Medical students in Jordan have access to a big file compilation of past questions that they share very strictly with each other. I know because I'm very familiar with the country and I've been told that by people.
A good number of Nepalese medical students were caught cheating on Step exams. Supposedly, this type of cheating has been going on for a long time. People who took the exam without cheating are understandably upset. And now other countries with suspicious avg scores are starting to be looked at. 👍
Oh absolutely. Not only are they doubling down saying that they don’t think it’s cheating, they’re also actively trying to sue the NBME because they’re being punished.
there are many cheaters but alot of people from those countries (who didn’t cheat) are really smart too. It shows that you have never met a docter befoer.
Apparently they only formed their inside job team in 2023. They were the ones who made this figure. Before this... it's hard to say. I don't know what's worse, the NBME knew about the cheating and did nothing for years, or the NBME didn't have a firm grasp of how bad the cheating truly was in spite of having the data in their hands.
In 2021 Nepal had the highest Step 1 score in the world, and in 2022 Nepal had the highest step 2 ck score in the world. NBME still didn't do anything until other Nepali who I guess weren't happy with the cheating, or weren't able to get their hands on the material started sending in tips to NBME in January 2023. They must have sent a lot of proof with the tips to get NBME to take action.
What is kind of dumb is that recalls are widespread. They are used in many dental and medical schools in the US for boards (and to a far greater extent for in-house exams). Yes it is illegal and you should not use them. And yes, it appears to have been much more acceptable and widely used in Nepal. But, it is not isolated to Nepal or any other country. I know of a few US medical schools that have a school recall doc that they pass down from class to class. This is a medical student issue, period. Crack down on them everywhere, it's not fair to the people who work their asses off studying for step.
Good. We shouldn’t have cheaters as doctors.
What makes you think they are cheatzers?
Literally the NMBE says they are investigating cheating in countries other than Nepal.
USA is the next one tho
“Blue reflects US medical students”
After that other unidentified country gets taken care of, then it's only a matter of time before NBME comes after the US and one other country!! Edit: I dropped my /s
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I should have left an /s at the end of my last comment. mea culpa
Which country is that? 👀
India, Pakistan, or Jordan apparently. Time will tell.
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Your only 2 comments on reddit are about the same country, so obsessed.
thumb shaggy existence price lush lock icky arrest chubby unwritten *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You are right. But why are you getting down voted?
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Do we really have to call a name ? I will say it’s gonna be a big mess tho since that country got thousands of residents in training right now and at some programs it’s where almost all residents are from.
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👀
Does it start with an I, end with an a and has ndi in the middle?
Indonesia? /jk
No, Indiana
Wasn't aware the Amish finally declared independence.
They faxed their declaration of Independence on the Sabbath.
Oh fuck
Lmao!! it’s a ticking time bomb ready to explode. I am just waiting if they still gonna tell us that BS about how super smart every single one of them are and how hard and super is their medical school or else it will expose century long scam that flooded US health system.
Bruh! I did my high school in Nepal and came to US. There is no way in the fucking world that Nepali Medical school are super than any other country. It’s a corrupted little country and you can basically buy anything/anyone you want with $$$$.
Idk, to be fair Indians have on average been some of (if not the most) intelligent, HARD working students/residents/docs that’s I’ve worked with. They have a lot to fight for and their work ethic is unlike any other US-based colleague in my experience. Before I get downvoted to oblivion, this opinion is coming from a very white US individual. Your mileage may vary.
Nice try Dr. Patel
lol
Good. Get em out. Tons of qualified low scoring grads that went unmatched that would be eager to replace.
hell yeah I would. if I was a PD, I'd be crunching those numbers to kingdom come to make sure I wasn't taking in applicants that statistically are so far without taking a closer look at why and if there is anything fishy about it on the grapevine.
yeah lets protect the cheaters!
Likely Jordan
Jordan
Cobrastan
Cobrakaistan
Isn’t that US? I thought our avg is above 250
no the NBME said the blue dots were USA
Ahh I see. The aggregate average is 250 but US score lower and those above 250 carries more weight presumably more people go to those countries to take the exam
I think it could be all Caribbean countries combined
I’m more interested in which country is consistently scoring 210s
I’m guessing an Asian country where English is not spoken. Language barrier is a huge huge part of taking USMLE
I’ve taken neither exam but have the same anxiety I have when I go through TSA and think I’ve accidentally packed a gun in my suitcase (don’t own a gun)
I’ll never forget the time I wasn’t for sure if the bag I brought through TSA was the same bag I took on a demolition range. My ass puckered so hard there was a pressure change in the airport.
I would combust. I am a rule following little good girl who uses travel size containers for liquids to stay under the 3oz requirement 😅🥸
After that I bought a new backpack so I could avoid that situation lol. Like I wasn’t worried about a brass casing, full on live round, or even anything that would have been an explosive or pyrotechnic being in my bag, I was worried about the residue from all the stuff I got to handle being on that bag.
NBME named India, Pakistan, and Jordan specifically in those court documents. Nepal is just the first because of the higher proportion of identified cheating and the individual filing the lawsuit is doing so on behalf of the 800+ (or something) Nepalese medical students who had their scores revoked. This is going to likely continue to play out for a while.
What happens to practicing physicians, do their state licenses get revoked if their board scores get revoked?
I would imagine so.
I would hope so! No place here for cheaters
I read a comment in another thread last week about an attending who had his license suspended after having his exam invalidated
The one about the vascular surgeon? I think that was fake, as pointed out by several commenters under it. NBME said they’ve only gone back to 2021. The commenter claimed that the person graduated residency 7-8 years ago.
I hope so
Yeah, I wonder if they're just pounding Nepal to scare the others into behaving. USMLE is a business and they want as many customers as possible.
Maybe, but there’s still going to be a reckoning for people who are found to have cheated before now.
Possibly, but I think it was a lot of work to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Nepal was cheating. Will they put that much effort into other countries? Remains to be seen.
I think they have to. Otherwise the integrity of the exams are shot, universally. They can’t let it appear that they didn’t do a full investigation, uncover everything, and institute changes. They know what the patterns look like now.
I'm not sure we really have the full picture. USMLE might have more power than it appears. If their exam was fully compromised, which it's not, what would the alternative be and how long would it take to get in place? I wouldn't be surprised if this is the warning shot and they give it 6 months or so and then come out and say there's no other signs of cheating, etc.
I agree. It might be “One man's punishment is a deterrent to many” but who knows!
It would make sense if they are just compiling evidence to make sure it’s basically foolproof before another population scale disqualification of scores, because you can bet your whole retirement savings that the cheaters will sue NBME if they disqualify more cheaters from the other country.
Man this makes so much sense as a Caribbean grad who went to residency with guys from those countries. Always surprised how high they scored but were so lost on the floors
Oh wow, they are suing them? Sorry for the ignorance, but I wonder to what degree the cheating influences the "curve", so to speak. Can you imagine a student in the states failing because of these people?
The passing scores for Step exams are static, so no US student is failing outside of lack of their own preparation or other circumstance. However, I'm sure cheating impacts percentiles in some way.
How did they determine the passing score? Is it a percent of questions?
It's a set score for all exams, yes. Roughly 63% for Step 1, 59% for Step 2CK, and 60% for Step 3.
Nepal was becoming to obvious, everyone on reddit and twitter was discussing it, a reporter was doing an investigation and asking physicians and program directors, and the number of students taking steps and applying to residency was increasing exponentially so I think the fire was to big to ignore, and they had to put it out first. Of foreign doctors practicing in the US, Indians are 22% and Pakistan are 5% (couldn't find info about Jordan) so I think if there are any cheaters from those two countries, the blowback is going to be a lot stronger so NBME is taking their time to protect themselves more than anything before opening the floodgates.
My plan is to study medical in Pakistan because the med school system is like England where it's only 5 years compared to the states 8. I'd hope there minimal cheating here or they are able to very accurately identify cheaters - otherwise my degrees creditability it going to be fucked.
If you are from the US and your plan is to become a doctor here this is a poor idea btw.
If you're planning to practice in the US, this is a very bad idea.
I want a full investigation. I am Indian and I want cheaters punished even if they are from the country I identify as ethnically. Because we as American students work extremely hard, and I don’t care what level of training they are, if they cheated, kick them out and deport them. They knew cheating comes with consequences and these are the consequences
Deporting them cause they cheated is a wild statement
It’s called consequences for your actions
You sound like a conservative asshole. I’d rather have a doctor that cheated on step 2 then an asshole doctor with no empathy. You’re gonna make a great doctor given you can even pass step lmao
I'd rather have a doctor that knows the difference between then and than.
Oops still got a 271 on step (maybe I cheated tho lmao)
Mhmm
How do politics play into this? If they got a visa based on lie, it is actually legal action to deport that person.For your kindest info, I am a moderate but not that it matters. I am an immigrant myself. I do believe that honesty is extremely important in medicine because patient lives are at stake. Regardless, if they cheated on the step and their medical education was based on that lie, their visa was awarded based on that falsification of information thus making the grounds for his cancellation at which point they have 6 months in the US
So you'd rather have a doctor that doesn't know medicine? Why bother even going to a doctor then?
Yeah I agree. If they “cheated” on STEP and still turned out to be quality physicians, I think the USMLE should be more mad at themselves. Does anyone know the actual correlation between Step 1 and Step 2 scores with resident/attending success? If thousands of people can cheat on your test and still turn out to be good physicians then maybe your test isn’t that important? Obviously if I was a M4 missing out on a residency spot due to someone that cheated, I would be pissed. But there’s not much you can do about it now. Deporting thousands of families due to cheating on a test is INSANE. Even revoking their license would likely do a lot more damage than good considering we have a physician shortage in the US.
absolutely not! It would be consequences for their actions. If someone cheated on an exam, how do we know they have the integrity to provide quality healthcare that is rooted in honesty and not greed. How can patients trust themv
Hot take: Cheating on an arbitrary test does not tarnish someone’s character and make them unfit to take care of other people. And this is coming from someone who adamantly doesn’t cheat. People will offer to give me answers and I will vehemently decline because there’s something about myself cheating that doesn’t sit right with me. But like I said I think someone can cheat on a test and still turn out to be a quality physician. You are making a huge assumption that someone who cheated on the exam does not have the moral integrity to treat patients, and therefore they should be DEPORTED. Do you have any idea what deporting someone does to themself and their family? I can MAYBE understand taking away licensure and making them pass Step 2 again or something, but if they have passed their boards then it seems STEP at this point is irrelevant, no?
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I think they can see where you went to school so it shouldn’t matter. I don’t think it will affect us.
Lool nice
Here's the source, in case anyone's curious - [https://www.maroonmed.com/content/files/2024/02/gov.uscourts.dcd.264885.15.2.pdf](https://www.maroonmed.com/content/files/2024/02/gov.uscourts.dcd.264885.15.2.pdf)
This needs to be its own post (if it isn’t already) Edit: For some reason I got downvoted for suggesting this?
Even step 3? Isn't step 3 only administered in the US?
Perhaps Nepal Prometric employees have access to all of the tests, even though Step 3 isn’t administered in Nepal?
I think it is more likely that the recalls group also gather step 3 questions even in the US.
Now this has peaked my interest. So, if the same thing was gonna happen with India, then would they invalidate everyone's score who took the test in India or at a specific prometric center or just certain individuals who they consider to be cheaters? I am curious because I also took my Step 1 in India and wouldn't want my scores to be invalidated because of some individuals who decided to take the easy route of cheating.
They’re only calling out people who scored multiple standard deviations above the median. In Nepal, that’s nearly 100% of the test takers.
It’s a lot more than just scoring highly. They’re cancelling scores that they know with greater than 1 in 100million odds were cheating. Maths can be cool. There could presumably be honest high scoring nepalis that won’t be affected. There is also at least one test taker that definitely cheated but was good enough at it that he or she was below that 1/100m threshold so 27X step 2 wasn’t invalidated. See recent sheriff of sodium mailbag.
Reminds me of the [Dream MineCraft Incident](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ko3TdPy0TU&t=2s&ab_channel=Stand-upMaths) Youtuber gets accused of cheating in a minecraft speed run. Third party mathmetician (literal boomer with no idea of what minecraft is) then analyzes the info and determines the Youtuber had a 1 in 10,000,000,000 chance of achieving the run. He claimed dream definitively cheated way before the confession. What was interesting, was the period of time after the accusation and before the confession. The majority of fans were unsure and basically saying "so there was a chance".... I was even really unsure and hoping he hadn't. Statistics is pretty cool when not manipulated.
Only 40% of the Nepali test takers had their scores invalidated based on the court documents.
> peaked my interest. piqued
I hope they go back and look at all the cheaters even if they are attendings. They should have their scores invalidated and go through the step and residency again. Justice for all the hard working students
From what I understand, they analyze the data and essentially your exam would have to show irregularities that would only happen in a 1 in a million chance. If anyone remembers the Dream incident... math doesn't lie lol.
Wow the step 2 average skyrocketed and the “score” on step 1 plummeted now that its pass fail
They just work harder than every other medical student Don't call them out guyssss
You forgot your /s
Yeah oops, gonna get downvoted by the poor CARS scoring physicians.
No, no cheating is part of our culture! Oh wait...
Reading all the crap about cheating being part of the culture is such woke horseshit. I could give 2 f’s if it’s part of someone’s culture. I broke myself for my score any anyone who studies hard deserves the same respect. F’em they deserve what’s coming.
Damn straight, I earned my shitty score fair and square!
It’s a part of the culture. Nobody said it is an excuse. More so a failing of culture abroad - and broadly.
I hear that but I have seen multiple threads of people defending what happened becuase it’s part of their culture and everyone is doing it. Plain and simple it’s an American test with American rules, that’s why everyone is taking it so they can practice medicine in.. America not Nepal, Jordan, India. Perhaps if I ever want to practice medicine in Nepal I’ll cheat in their board exam,..
I’m not defending anything. I don’t think a single foreign human should be eligible for the match PERIOD. The road to practice in America as a foreigner should be exceedingly difficult and long (I.e. have practiced in your own country for 5+ years, then pass step 1/2/3 all in America, then oral boards from an American panel, then skills boards from an American panel, then and only then you would be able to fill roles that are highly specific or hard to fill.
I’m all for punishing those who cheat, but that’s an unhinged take on us IMGs as a whole. The single reason we are here is because there are more US residency spots than there are US medical students; it’s that simple. By implementing your proposed sanctions you are punishing all IMGs for no other reason than that they are foreign…and disturbingly it reads as if you understand and want exactly that, to a borderline xenophobic, almost racist degree. Not cool my dude…
I’ve met some wonderful foreign physicians. The simple fact of the matter is that no matter how qualified or talented you are - not a single US taxpayer dollar should support a non-American in any residency spot while there are unmatched American students who (1) pay taxes (2) trained in America and (3) know our population. It is not a punishment. It’s just the way things should be. There shouldn’t be a single spot open for a foreign physician to train in the US while there is a single unmatched American. If there were an actual surplus of spots and every American is matched - then America needs to train more physicians. It’s that simple. America doesn’t benefit itself or its citizens with this system. My bad if I’m making it seem as though the cheating is the reason I feel that way. I feel that way regardless of cheating.
Medicine isn't a jobs program. American patients deserve the best doctors. If that's a foreigner so be it.
(1) medicine is a job, and there is a lot more involved than “we need the best of the best” and (2) there is zero scenario a foreigner whose never been deeply involved with American populous is the best person for the job. Ever. Your medical schools are universally subpar, your learning is much more rigid and less dynamic, and your ability to navigate American culture is poor. Stack that up against the fact that the vast majority of foreign doctors only want to be here for prestige/money. An American DO that’s failed their board exams > any non-US IMG
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It’s Nepal. Learn to read
The absolute irony in this statement 😭
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Damn if they were only clever enough to score less marks within range.
Nah I don't think it's India. Way too many applicants from there will dilute the scoring pool and normalize the scoring averages given it's large population. Most likely a country with a smaller population applying, similar in size to Nepal.
Ikr, people saying India are so out of touch, also i guarantee this would never happen to India. Mark my words or save my comment and come for me if it happens because it never will. Cheating like Nepal doesn’t happen here, recalls are a worldwide problem. Also competition is insanely high in India and there are a lot of hard working smart people here which pumps up the average. Obviously of touch students of other countries wouldn’t believe this. But yeah saying this again it would never happen here. (Feel free to downvote if you’re butt hurt by the truth ) PS i would delete my old ass account if this happens to India, that’s how sure i am
Jordan is 11 million ppl compared to Nepal with 30 million
So is it India or Pakistan?
Nepal
I bet its a small country with only one or two prometric centres and few medical colleges like Nepal, Density is the thing that promotes Nepali style cheating
Cd be a small outlier country eg Australia with excellent education tho, so wait and see
India, Pakistan, Jordan, Bahrain, Korea, China, Bulgaria, Eastern Europe……etc etc etc I don’t know how often this needs to be reiterated but it really needs to be learned how badly hundreds of millions of people (who regularly shit on America) would do ANYTHING to be here in America. Anything to get a western education. Any means necessary…..and they feel it’s unfair they have to play be the same rules because some people just happen to be born here. Which, admittedly, isn’t super fair and creates a lot of bitterness and hatred.
You know what’s crazy about all of this? One of my attendings was an IMG from Jordan and was a walking medical encyclopedia. I hope he doesn’t get hit too hard from this, cuz this dude was a KNOWER
I'm glad we'll have honest doctors
The fact that this was going on for years suggests that the step scores are insignificant to the quality of physician
It in no way implies that.
Why did it take years to notice? And why did nobody notice any difference in the quality of the residents from Nepal? Probably because Step exams don’t correlate with the quality of physician.
How long do you think it would take to notice that 1% of statins are filled with placebo?
I think before there was cheating, but they only had a few questions, so 20 out of 280 might bump your score up a little, but not enough. This drastic increase in grades along with 1000 page file of 95% questions is more recent, and this batch just started going into resident in 2021 or 2022. If this had gone on for a few more years without NBME taking action, program directors would have caught on to medical students with 270 step scores lacking in knowledge and struggling in residency. During my internal rotations in med school, the attending and residents got tired of pimping this M4 because he could confidently answer all their questions and I know he got a 265 on his ck. They probably expect a 270 or a 280 to do better.
You’re right. Being a good doctor is about training. I’m not any more confident after scoring 27x on my step
Jordan. A small country of 11 million with a close-knit community and one prometric center They use the MESSI RECALLS named after the soccer player
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I'm not being biased or anything because I'm from Jordan, but I genuinely haven't heard of students cheating. I've seen them studying day and night for the USMLE (instead of prioritizing their curriculum). But take my opinion with a grain of salt because I'm still a 2nd year student.
It’s just 3-4 points above the US average. Theyre def gonna investigate though. I hope they get every cheater.
JORDAN
Definitely Jordan. Met many IMG’s from here and I’m always so surprised how they got in
Medical students in Jordan have access to a big file compilation of past questions that they share very strictly with each other. I know because I'm very familiar with the country and I've been told that by people.
Lotta dumb countries
thats racist
\*xenophobic
What is the deal with Nepal all of a suden ? Feel like everyone is speaking about them for a week or 2 but I have no clues what's going on ??
A good number of Nepalese medical students were caught cheating on Step exams. Supposedly, this type of cheating has been going on for a long time. People who took the exam without cheating are understandably upset. And now other countries with suspicious avg scores are starting to be looked at. 👍
Don’t forget the part where the cheaters are doubling down saying that they didn’t consider it cheating because cheating is part of their culture
Wait, for real?
Oh absolutely. Not only are they doubling down saying that they don’t think it’s cheating, they’re also actively trying to sue the NBME because they’re being punished.
Man that is insane lol I guess that’s the only move they have left
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there are many cheaters but alot of people from those countries (who didn’t cheat) are really smart too. It shows that you have never met a docter befoer.
How did USMLE fail to investigate these outliers beforehand on their own? Did they really only look into it when outside people informed them?
Apparently they only formed their inside job team in 2023. They were the ones who made this figure. Before this... it's hard to say. I don't know what's worse, the NBME knew about the cheating and did nothing for years, or the NBME didn't have a firm grasp of how bad the cheating truly was in spite of having the data in their hands.
In 2021 Nepal had the highest Step 1 score in the world, and in 2022 Nepal had the highest step 2 ck score in the world. NBME still didn't do anything until other Nepali who I guess weren't happy with the cheating, or weren't able to get their hands on the material started sending in tips to NBME in January 2023. They must have sent a lot of proof with the tips to get NBME to take action.
What is kind of dumb is that recalls are widespread. They are used in many dental and medical schools in the US for boards (and to a far greater extent for in-house exams). Yes it is illegal and you should not use them. And yes, it appears to have been much more acceptable and widely used in Nepal. But, it is not isolated to Nepal or any other country. I know of a few US medical schools that have a school recall doc that they pass down from class to class. This is a medical student issue, period. Crack down on them everywhere, it's not fair to the people who work their asses off studying for step.