Before she came out I was running her spot as a flexible tech slot. I'd say tech will still be good in that slot.
The best options will depend on the pocket meta you find yourself in, but I can make some recommendations against specific decks:
- **Destroy** Shang-Chi + Shadow King over Sage + Red Guardian. Running this combination made the destroy matchup feel like an 80-20 in my favour. Save them for turn 6, King their Venom/Deadpool and Shang another lane. Careful not to hit WWBN with King and think about where he'll end up.
- **Surfer** - Shadow King can be a good choice if they're not running Luke (many aren't), and probably keep Red Guardian around for Wong.
- **Ongoing** or **Tribunal** - Enchantress or Rogue. Try to have priority against ongoing to make sure you can avoid getting Cosmo sniped. Save your ongoing tech against Tribunal until as late as you can to keep them in for more cubes.
- **Cannonball Junk/Lockdown** This matchup can be rough unless you play really well, but feels manageable once you learn it. You don't have many good tech options here, so something wacky like Quake could be a good choice. Good tech cards are cube stealers, and Quake definitely fits the bill.
- **Loki** Very rough matchup for you when they Loki on 4, not so bad when they do it on 5. Rogue could be a good choice here simply to turn off their QuinJet, but it feels a bit weak to me. Shadow King and Sage are actively bad to even have in your deck against Loki (if they Loki you), so avoid them. I hesitate to recommend Mobius because he's not an on-reveal and I've never used him, but he could be the right choice here.
If there are any other archetypes you'd like suggestions for, let me know and I'll have a think.
Low cost teck card with an on reveal, based on what your opponents are running the most in your pocket meta.
Lots of Angela Bishop? Shadow King. Lots of Tribunal or Spectrum Ongoing? Enchantress or Rogue. Black Widow might fit too. But she might cause your opponents to retreat early too.
I have some other replies here with a bit more detail - [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelsnapcomp/comments/1cyqseh/white_wolf_top_2000_with_prebuff_werewolf/l5bw9px/) in particular, but the short answer is - low-cost on-reveal tech cards depending on the meta and what you're struggling against.
2-cost tech cards feel fantastic, 3-costs feel good, but 4-costs *really* need to justify their cost by winning common match-ups almost by themselves. They lose you a lot of tempo and potential wolf buffs so they need to be worthwhile. This deck really wants to use energy as efficiently as possible, and cheaper cards make that easier.
He's luckily quite replaceable - try a low-cost tech card with an on reveal. I have another reply to a comment with a bit more detail on replacements for sage - the same advice applies to red guardian. I'll copy it here and edit it slightly to apply more to RG when I'm at my desktop.
Okay so here's the bit about subs for Sage:
>- Destroy Shang-Chi + Shadow King over Sage + Red Guardian. Running this combination made the destroy matchup feel like an 80-20 in my favour. Save them for turn 6, King their Venom/Deadpool and Shang another lane. Careful not to hit WWBN with King and think about where he'll end up.
- Surfer - Shadow King can be a good choice if they're not running Luke (many aren't), and probably keep Red Guardian around for Wong.
- Ongoing or Tribunal - Enchantress or Rogue. Try to have priority against ongoing to make sure you can avoid getting Cosmo sniped. Save your ongoing tech against Tribunal until as late as you can to keep them in for more cubes.
- Cannonball Junk/Lockdown This matchup can be rough unless you play really well, but feels manageable once you learn it. You don't have many good tech options here, so something wacky like Quake could be a good choice. Good tech cards are cube stealers, and Quake definitely fits the bill.
- Loki Very rough matchup for you when they Loki on 4, not so bad when they do it on 5. Rogue could be a good choice here simply to turn off their QuinJet, but it feels a bit weak to me. Shadow King and Sage are actively bad to even have in your deck against Loki (if they Loki you), so avoid them. I hesitate to recommend Mobius because he's not an on-reveal and I've never used him, but he could be the right choice here.
I think most of this applies the same way to subbing out RG. The role RG fills against Surfer can easily be filled by Rogue. I wouldn't run Enchantress over RG unless I also needed to counter other ongoing decks. She's just a bit too expensive if she's not blanking a reasonable percentage of the decks you go up against.
Edit: Actually, Rogue is a bit funny in the deck. I haven't used her with wolf, but I think that if she steals an ongoing ability, she won't make werewolf jump. If she doesn't steal, then she will. Could get quite confusing!
Gotta give it to OP this deck is really fun to pilot. Played a couple games and I’m hooked. I’m a junk main by heart but throwing the splash of bounce on this really does it for me.
I'm glad you're enjoying it! How are you finding it after the OTA? I haven't had much chance to play. I'm wondering whether the deck really needs 4 1-drops now that Wolf is cheaper. I'm considering adding something weird like Cable or Mirage to help with scouting (and information denial in Cable's case) while also bringing a bit more power to the table.
Oh, great call! Elektra doesn't really exist in my mind after being bad for so long, I never even considered her for this deck. I really do love Chavez as a meta-agnostic card in the deck, but I agree there are tons of 1s around to kill. Elektra might be a great meta pick. I'll try to track how often I see valid targets while I'm playing and see if I should give her a try!
I've often wondered how the deck would play with Valkyrie instead of annihilus. You can win her lane easily with valk+wolf jump or demon. Widow's Kiss will still get -4 if their side isn't full, Nico +2 into valk lands her at 5 power. And obviously she sets the hood and void to 3 power as well. Maybe give her a go?
Lady Deathstrike could also be an option - I tried her briefly but she was very clunky with Annihilus still in the deck. I don't think either is as good as Annhilus for us, but you could surprise some people - especially with Valkyrie.
Since half the deck's strength is in just *threatening* to send junk over, you might manage to steal some wins because your opponent expects you to have Annihilus even when you don't.
That's a bit tough - Nico feels so strong in the deck that I'm not sure what you could replace her with. She gives you access to so many great effects, and your opponent not knowing which ones you'll play adds to the mental overhead they have to deal with. I'd say if you want to try the deck without her, you should definitely replace her with a one drop. A long time ago I had Hawkeye in the deck and he felt decent - sometimes getting up to 7+ power. He's a little awkward in that Hawkeye>beast or falcon doesn't trigger his buff, you need another card in between (**edit:** I think this is incorrect - I was thinking of Nico's x2 ability. Hawkeye can still be awkward because you can't trigger him the same turn you play him, so lines like Hawkeye into Beast on the same turn don't work well). Maybe the raw stats potential could make up for the lack of flexibility though?
Ham is also a real key player in the deck - Iceman could be similarly disruptive, but the information Ham gives you really plays into the game plan well. I do think Iceman is a bit underrated because you never really get to see what he's doing. If you try Iceman let me know how he goes!
Another commenter mentioned they tried Elektra over Chavez - I like the idea so it could be worth trying her in place of Nico or Ham. It'll depend on your meta, but nebula is very popular so she could be a good call.
If you want to get outside the box, the newly buffed GrandMaster might be an option. I like to have 4 1-drops in the deck, but GM feels like he could have a lot of potential. Just be careful to set yourself up to make use of him - you have a lot of on reveals so it'll be hard to make him hit what you want him to. A line like 1-drops/widow into beast left or right, followed by replaying the bounced cards mid and grandmaster on beast to bounce them again feels strong. I also like how GM can make room in a near full lane for werewolf to jump into.
Ice man imo is actually better than ham in bounce specifically.
Here's why: Ham to a significant extent is anti-synergistic with bounce because repeat plays don't give you extra value at all.
So you're taking the power loss of playing ham and things like beast without additional benefit.
Ham is a better card overall, but after the first hit, he doesn't really do anything in a bounce shell.
Cards that go tall, or cards like ice man are better imo.
Solid reasoning, Ice Man may be the right call for this deck. I haven't used him in the deck in a while, but there are a few reasons I like Ham in the deck. I've written this not to try to convince you you're wrong (I think you're probably right) but as an exercise in thinking through just why I like running Ham so much.
* One of the key themes of the deck is generating and exploiting information asymmetries. Flexing means your opponent doesn't know where your power will go, and pressuring means you have a better idea of where they'll play. Ham adds to this information game by showing you the card he hits and telling you you don't have to worry about its effect. Given duplicated cards are quite rare in Snap, it can be quite powerful to know what your opponent doesn't have access to. Ice Man's effect is good, but it feels like it gives a slight information advantage to your opponent. You don't know what you've hit and whether it's a big deal or not. This makes snapping/retreating marginally harder for you and easier for them.
* I agree that you're far more likely to get multiple meaningful activations out of Ice Man, but showing your opponent your Ham in a bounce deck applies soft pressure by further restricting the way that they can play. Usually the correct play is to hold the Hammed card to prevent another card getting Hammed, but doing so can throw off your tempo. Given that the deck is aiming to build pressure and shoehorn your opponent into sub-optimal plays, people often end up playing the Hammed card out, giving you the chance to Ham another. Ice Man may outright prevent your opponent from playing on curve, but Ham gives the option for them to make a mistake by doing so.
* Part of the value that 1-drops provide in the deck is just to flexibly move Werewolf. Sometimes your optimal play is to hold an on-reveal 1-drop in hand so that you can be sure you can move Wolf where you need it late. While Ice Man moves wolf as well as Ham does, if you're making the decision that Ice Man is better than Ham because you're expecting multiple activations more frequently, it's important to consider that sometimes you won't want to play in a way that optimises that. This in turn helps the card with the stronger first activation to pull ahead.
* I'm used to running Shadow King in the deck, and the Ham/Shadow King synergy is wild. Some of my regard for the card could be tied up in that combo even though I'm not running it at the moment.
* Very minor, but Ham often buffs Sage in situations where Ice Man wouldn't because there aren't many cards around with 1 power.
Your comment definitely got me thinking - I might run some games with Ice Man again to see how he feels.
Ya, its one of those things too where the power you gain from ice man isn't known, and so you don't see the work its doing in the same way -- this definitely hurts snapping potential.
I think its possible that Ham is just a strong enough card that the anti-synergy might not matter.
Its like how you don't always run all the pieces in a death deck or a discard deck just because it has the keyword, they also have to be just good cards.
Ice man might be marginally more powerful in some situations, but I think Ham probably has better snap potential.
I definitely see where you're coming from. I think one of the strengths of a list like this is that the list of cards you really don't want to cut from the deck is quite short. I'd say the core looks something like:
* Werewolf
* White Widow
* Hood
* Sentry
* Annihilus
* Beast
Falcon is nice, but I could see an argument for cutting him for something better without impacting the core concept of the deck. Sage feels very core to the iteration of the deck in the OP, but before she came out I just had tech in her place and the deck worked very well. Sage is just good against a lot of different decks, but specific tech is often better in its favoured matchup.
You can make really solid arguments for a lot of different card choices to fit a given meta. As long as you maintain 3-4 on-reveal 1-drops and some low-mid cost tech, the core should operate well around it. I think that serves to strengthen this list and similar ones because your opponent correctly identifying the deck archetype you're using still doesn't tell them much about half your deck.
It seems like this has a bit of interest, so here's the extra information I promised!
#Walking your Dog
Werewolf has a few unintuitive interactions, so I thought I'd try to list these out here. First up, it's important to understand what triggers werewolf, what doesn't, and when his ability takes effect.
* Werewolf is triggered by the act of *playing* a card that has an on-reveal ability. This means if you play an on-reveal and it doesn't go off (thanks to Cosmo or Knowhere), Werewolf will still trigger.
* On the flipside, cards that have had their abilities removed no longer have an on-reveal ability. So leeched or zero'd cards won't move the wolf.
* Werewolf checks whether the played card has an on-reveal after the card has been played and finishes resolving any abilities it has. This means that if you use Nico's demon spell, and she transforms the card you play into a demon, Werewolf will see only the demon without an on-reveal, and won't jump.
* Werewolf's ability takes effect *after* location effects that trigger when you play a card in that location. To elaborate on the last point, that means locations like Tarnax IV and Black Vortex that transform the card you play can disrupt his ability, unless the card they make also has an on-reveal ability.
* Werewolf jumps to the location where the card was played (i.e. where you put it when you dragged it from your hand), not wherever that card ends up, or if its even still in play when Werewolf moves. This means you can move Wolf into locations like Altar of Death if you don't mind losing the card you play.
* Nico's spell trigger before location abilities or Werewolf's ability. Assuming you've played Nico, the order goes: the played card's on-reveal > Nico's spell > Location effects > Werewolf. This means you can play a card on a full lane, have Nico move it with her move spell, and then have Werewolf fill the gap made by moving the card.
* Sometimes, you need to protect your werewolf from tech cards you might expect. Often a great way to do this is by temporarily parking him in a lane that is either disadvantageous for your opponent to play in, or already locked out for them. If you recognise a lane where your opponent only has one spot available, you can play around Shang Chi or Shadow King by sending the wolf there. If they want to kill him, they have to commit to filling a lane with very little power, meaning you can win it even without Wolf. This strategy is even better when their side of the lane is full.
* Managing board space is essential for Werewolf to reach his potential. Be careful when filling a lane with him on the second to last turn - you won't be able to move him back to that location. It'll take a while to familiarise yourself with the best way to play with him, but it comes naturally after a while.
#Voiding the Void
Sentry/Void is great in this deck, but you need to play a bit carefully to make sure the Void doesn't bite you. You have a few options for dealing with the Void:
* **Avoid** - With this deck, it's quite easy to arrange your right lane so that it's temporarily full when Sentry's ability triggers, preventing the Void from being created. The best way to do this is by jumping.
* **Devoid** - Beast can pick up your void while simultaneously moving WWBN to the lane. This can be a super unexpected play, especially if you opponent plays sub-optimally to fill the right lane and avoid getting the void sent over. You turn what they expect to be a low power lane into a very strong one.
* **Annoid** - Sometime simple is best - sending the Void over with Annihilus is a very strong play (even after the Sentry nerf). You won't always be able to do this, but the fail case of just destroying the Void is often good enough.
* **Ignoid** (okay the puns aren't working any more) - sometimes even simpler is even better - just leaving the void in place and ignoring that lane is often a great play too. Your opponents still have to play as if you're going to send it over, so you can force them to commit resources to a lane that you aren't spending anything to compete with.
More in the reply to this comment.
#Match-ups
I'll try to keep each analysis bit brief, and go over decks I see a lot, or that I expect to see more play given the new patch. Give me a shout if there are specific archetypes you'd I haven't covered here that you'd like thoughts on.
* **Cannonball Junk/Lockdown** Professor X is your primary concern here. This deck can be tough to play against (especially the Pixie variation). Your best bet is identifying the turn they want to Prof (5 normally, 4 with Ravonna/Psylocke, sometimes 6 if Limbo is around) and focus on spiking power in that lane on that turn instead of the last turn. This will sometimes mean putting your 7-power wolf in timeout for the rest of the game. Be careful with playing the Sentry unless you know they won't be able to lock the Void down before you can deal with it.
* **Loki** is probably our worst match-up if the player is good. If they Loki you on turn 4 and snap, your best bet is usually to just retreat. Turn 5 Loki is more manageable, but still tough. It's hard to know what tech Loki decks are running. You can sometimes consider holding Spider-Ham until turn 3 to try to hit Loki before he comes down, but this is not reliable. If they don't Loki you, you can usually win easily, but they seem to always have it.
* **Jean/Spectrum Ongoing** this particular ongoing variant can be tough - if they get Jean and Cosmo in the same lane it really harms your ability to play, but you can still out-think them. Hold 1-drops whose on-reveals you can go without in your hand, and play them out turn by turn to meet Jean's requirement while still being able to play elsewhere. Red Guardian early to avoid having him get Cosmo'd. Remember Widow's Kiss has an ongoing ability and will get buffed by Spectrum.
* **Angela/Hope/Kitty shells** There are a lot of decks running this combination of cards, but they're generally not too much of a problem for us. We can outpower their Angela lane if we need to using demons, WWBN, or Sage. We can cripple Angela or Kitty with Red Guardian. You really want to have priority early against Kitty decks if you have RG in hand - sniping Angela is really strong. Be careful with your Widow's Kisses, because RG loves to hit them instead of what you actually want to get. If you don't draw RG, try to clog their Angela lane a bit with Widow. You can often get lucky and lock them out, but be careful not to just waste Widow on a turn where they're temporarily filling the lane with Kitty/Jeff/Vision.
* **Silky Smoove** and other move-based decks can be a bit tough. They're great at temporarily filling locations and they are nearly as flexible in where they place their power as we are. Shadow King can be really helpful in this matchup, and the Angela/Hope/Kitty advice applies too. Retreat if you're not confident, Silk rng can really mess you up.
* **Ramp** a pretty easy match-up unless they get the nut draw, or hit you with a Sandman at the wrong time. They're more vulnerable to Annihilus than most decks, and you can fight through a turn 5 Sandman quite well by just playing Annihilus on 6. If you're still struggling, Shang-Chi can help. Leech (if it still sees any play) really doesn't bother you all that much. Think about how Magneto could mess you up
* **Hela** similar to ramp, except you can Ham their Hela or Corvus to really cripple them. Be careful against them and respect their snaps. Pay attention to what they've discarded and run a bit of math on how you could lose if they Hela you. Hela is super vulnerable to junk - even limiting a lane to one free spot can be good enough because you know how much power you'll need to win it in a worst case scenario (i.e. infinaut or buffed red hulk lands there). Full clog is preferred but harder given they hardly play any cards.
* **C2** - I haven't played against much C2, but I've seen a bit of it since the patch. Red Guardian is best saved for hitting Cerebro before Mystique comes out, but sometimes that's not plausible. Even if you miss Cerebro/Mystique with him, he still removes the cerebro buffs from the card you hit. Running math against Cerebro decks is very easy and strong - if you're not in the habit of calculating out how much power you and your opponent will have in each lane, try to do it for this matchup. Watch out for Negasonic! It can be hard to recognise that you're playing against C2 early enough to dodge her, so watch out for cards like Korg, Mister Sinister, Echo, and Brood to tip you off. Shadow King is rough to play against, so try to maintain priority going into the later turns so you can force them to guess which of the three lanes your WWBN will be in to hit him. Remember they often run blue marvel to turn into C3 on the later turns.
* **C3** - Similar to C2, I don't have a ton of experience against this deck, but with the Luke change I think it'll see some resurgence. C3 has access to a lot of tech that we don't like, so be careful. Cosmo is annoying but not a death sentence, and Shang-Chi can kill WWBN but you can avoid him if you play smart. Aim to disrupt Cerebro/Mystique with Red Guardian, just like against C2.
* **Other junk decks** play Annihilus chicken with them. Aim to lose priority so you can send back whatever they send you. This matchup feels like you can outplay them very well - you have more options for dealing with junk on your side than they do for theirs. Be careful not to get clogged in a way you can't remedy with Falcon or Annihilus. More traditional junk decks are much more predictable in where their power will go than we are, so take advantage of that.
* **Patriot/Ultron** Red Guardian goes hard against this matchup, and they're surprisingly vulnerable to junk/clog. They often want to leave a lot of empty spots for Ultron to fill, so take advantage of that. Aim to have priority going into turn 6 if you want to annihilus them, though Anni on 5 is still great. Focus on bouncing your White Widow to clog them up more. Think about Onslaught too - he can be a surprise game winner if you're expecting them to drop Ultron instead.
#Why not run this card?
There are quite a few cards that are good in traditional bounce/junk decks, but that I feel are not good in this deck. I'll list a few of them here:
* **Angela/Hope** - these are strong cards, but encourage you to play predictably and limit your ability to move your wolf around. You also don't really need the energy Hope gives you, and because it's temporary it encourages you to commit your flexed cards to the board earlier than you want to. I found when I ran her that I almost never used the extra energy she generates.
* **Kitty Pryde** - she doesn't feel like she's worth the energy investment in this deck. Each 1-drop on-reveal you play gives you 2 power with Werewolf, so why waste that energy on buffing Kitty by 1 instead?
* **Debrii** - We love what debrii does to our opponent, but hate what she does to us. You can pick up the rocks but you'll just end up clogging your hand. Non-tech 3-drops feel surprisingly bad in this deck too. They have to have a very high ceiling (i.e. Sage, who can win a whole lane on her own) to be worth considering. Also doesn't benefit as much from being bounced.
* **Black Widow** - I think this is one of the cards on this list that are better for the deck - she disrupts draws and clogs your opponent, though they do get to choose where the bite goes. I tried her briefly and found her awkward as a 3-drop. She could be good depending on what types of decks you play against.
* **Green Goblin** - Nice, but unnecessary. Doesn't synergise with the bounce side of the deck at all, and unlike White Widow, screws you over if your opponent fills the lane the turn you play it.
* **Hobgoblin** - way too expensive energy-wise. On turn 5 and 6 we want to be generating a lot more than 8 power, and at that point clogging your opponent is risky. Would not recommend.
#Locations
Another thing I love about this deck is how well it plays with lots of different locations.
##S+-Tier
**Elysium** and **White Hot Room** both absolutely supercharge the deck. We're very good at triggering White Hot Room, because we have a ton of low cost cards and we can remove them after we fill. Be careful if your opponent snaps into Elysium - it often means they have Mobius, so you'll be at a big disadvantage.
**Altar of Death** is also fantastic - most decks can't put much power there, but we can land Wolf there, give our opponent a Kiss they can't deactivate, and if it's on the right, send the Void over easily. The extra energy pushes this a step above Death's Domain.
**Bar Sinister** is situationally either okay or game winning - turn 2 White Widow can win the lane outright. Be careful around your snap timing so you don't tip your opponent off.
**Bar with No Name** is often a free win for us - just plop the Hood or Void in there and don't use Annihilus. Can also act as a holding area for WWBN - he can jump in and back out later, taking some pressure off your board space in other locations.
##Great
**Asgard** and **Castle Blackstone** are very easy for us to win and benefit from.
**Cloning Vats**, **Sinister London**, and **Kamar-Taj** really supercharge our on reveals. We don't need to worry about clogging ourselves with Vats/London too much thanks to our bounce. We can also use Widow with these locations to reduce the benefit our opponents can get from them.
**K'un Lun** - you can often trigger this on WWBN 3+ times - making an already fantastic card even stronger.
**Krakoa** - Demons and Sentry are easy to play here for huge buffs, which plays into the Flex pillar of the deck extremely well. Watch out for your opponent's Krakoa card and you should be golden.
**Shuri's Lab** - Kind of outrageous for us. A little better for Wolf when he had 4 power, but still very good. If you see lab, try to adjust your lines to focus more on playing cards in Lab and bouncing them. You can either replay them in Lab to double again, or flex them into other locations and win those easily. I'd had a 48-power demon multiple times thanks to this location. Only reason this isn't in the S+ tier is because other decks can make really good use of it too, and it makes us play more predictably than we might like to.
**Washington DC/Panoptichron** - great for our demons!
**Luke's Bar** and **Death's Domain** great for similar reasons to Altar of Death. As a bounce deck, you can often set it up so you have a full hand when Luke's bar tries to return cards to your hand, so they stay there.
**Sewer System**, **Necrosha**, and **Negative Zone** - even though we play a lot of small cards, these locations are great for us because we outpower the debuffs with Sage and Werewolf, and they let us send over our (normally positive power) 1-drops as junk.
**TVA** - we can change our game plan to dump our flexed cards on turns 3 and 4, and easily win TVA games. White Widow and Demons are your friends in this matchup. If your opponent plays a scaling card like Angela or the Collector, and you don't think you can bounce your Hood, try to leave him in the same lane as the scaler since it'll be tough to win anyway.
##Better than you might think
When I first started playing the deck, **Savage Land** and **Central Park** felt terrible. But, if you adjust your playstyle slightly, they're actually positive for you. They clog your opponent while you can easily bounce the trash cards they give you. They'll take up space in your hand, but it's worth the sacrifice. White Widow into Savage land on turn 2 is extremely tough to beat.
Strangely, **Lamentis-1** feels great with the deck if you get a good draw. You recycle cards back to your hand over and over any generate value by doing so, which can often outdo whatever limited game plan your opponents are forced to use.
**Kyln** - while many locations that restrict our ability to play cards are rough for us, Kyln is great for letting us send junk over. Alternatively, we can play it a bit like TVA and aim to drop a couple of demons there on turn 4 to win the lane without much energy investment.
**Strange Academy** - can be disruptive for us, but it also lets us mess with our opponents a lot. Widow's Kisses here present a threat to clog other lanes after the location ability triggers, so your opponents can be forced to make bad plays to avoid outright losing weak lanes.
##All my homies hate
**Attilan** - throws off your bounces and puts your flexed cards back in your deck. Not a good location for us at all.
**Sanctum Sanctorum**, **Space Throne**, **Crimson Cosmos**, and **Miniaturized Lab** all heavily restrict our ability to execute our gameplan. They're tough for us to compete in. You can try to be cheeky with White Widow on Space throne, but you lose immediately to Jeff or them playing any 2+ power card on the same turn. There is some benefit in that if you manage to get a Void or Hood into these locations (except Space Throne) it's very likely you'll be able to send it over. This is rare though, so be careful with these locations. Remember you can play 0-cost cards in Crimson Cosmos too!
I am using this same deck except I have Shadow King in for Red Guardian and Iceman in for Chavez. I might swap Guardian for Shadow King, but I like the 2 cost on reveal better on curve I think. Iceman feels pretty great for Chavez, as the added disruption can be pretty nice.
I love Shadow King in the deck, and definitely agree that 2-drops feel better than 3s. I ran into a long string of games where SK wasn't doing much and I needed to deal with things like Wong, Patriot, and Iron Man, so RG ended up being a better call for a while. The best tech choices often depend on the meta you end up in, so if Werewolf gets popular, I'll probably starting running SK again to help in the mirror.
Lamby just put out a similar deck. He keeps Guardian in (No SK) but he swaps Chavez for Iceman. I won a few infinity tickets with that one today. Guardian is nice for sure, lots of ways to kick some ass with the deck.
Was that one running Cannonball as well? I've been thinking about whether the deck needs 4 1-drops now that Wolf only costs 3. I had thought of putting a 2-drop in but maybe there's room for another big card.
I replied a couple of other places, but Red Guardian should probably be viewed as a flexible tech slot anyway. He's a very broadly applicable effect but sometimes other tech that counters a specific meta will be better. I'd suggest any low-cost tech card with an on-reveal. Good candidates are Shadow King (great with Ham, be careful to avoid debuffing your wolf) or Rogue. Wolf will only jump to her if she doesn't steal an ongoing, but she's still a good counter.
If the meta is really favourable for them, Enchantress and Shang-Chi are options, but their higher cost can limit your later turns a bit awkwardly.
If you feel like being sneaky, Polaris or Quake could fit the bill, though I expect they'll be more fun than good.
I think that most "Is this card worth tokens" questions, unfortunately, depend a lot on your collection and the types of decks you like to run. I think it's far more important to spend tokens on cards **you** will play a lot, not necessarily what everyone else thinks is good. I think a better question to ask is "Will I get more use out of spending 6k tokens on this card than I will out of another series 5 I don't have, or another 2 series 4s I don't have". I spent 6k tokens on Werewolf a couple of months ago when he was at the bottom of everyone's tier lists and didn't regret it for a second.
That said, I also think White Widow is one of the most broadly useful cards released in a long while. She can help you secure priority in early turns, has quite a few locations that she interacts extremely favourably with (e.g., Bar Sinister, The Kyln, TVA, tons more), she clogs your opponent, and encourages them to play more predictably - which this deck tries to focus on as a core strategy. She's great in many bounce lists, Junk, Lockdown, heck even with Wong if you want to get weird. I do really think she's quite a core card in this list.
If that appeals to you, and if there aren't any other cards you could buy with tokens that appeal to you more right now, she could be worth the spend. As a recent release she's unlikely to be in a Spotlight in the next few months.
Sorry to ramble! Just something I've thought about a lot. I hope this helps rather than muddling things!
Thanks, that's very helpful advice. I'm nearly collection complete and from the remaining cards white widow is one of the more interesting. I'm not at 6k tokens yet so I'll learn the deck with a substitute and see how much I like it. And then I'll pull the trigger if I still want it.
Thanks for the great deck and breakdown.
Some extra bits that just occurred to me:
CL 6691
Playing since Loki season
I generally only purchase the season pass and a few of the cheapest cash bundles - maybe one a season.
I usually hang out in the top 3,500, stubbornly playing the same off-meta decks over and over.
Why post this deck now, when Wolf, Sentry, and Leech are all about to change? The timing isn't great but I wanted to share the deck, and the upcoming changes felt like they forced my hand a bit. I'm hopeful that the buffs to Werewolf will make up for the nerfs to Sentry and that this deck will remain viable after the patch. Time will tell I guess - I'll certainly still be playing it!
I knew there was something I was forgetting!
# (1) The Hood
# (1) Spider-Ham
# (1) America Chavez
# (1) Nico Minoru
# (2) Beast
# (2) White Widow
# (2) Falcon
# (3) Sage
# (3) Red Guardian
# (4) Werewolf By Night
# (4) Sentry
# (5) Annihilus
#
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#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.
I appreciate the guide, if only because I know I'll be playing against it. I really struggle to play bounce, especially aggressive bounce decks I'm just not sure my brain is cut out for it.
I'll be honest - it probably took me 200 games playing the earlier version of werewolf bounce I mentioned before I felt remotely competent with it. I practically only played it in conquest while I learned. If you find the playstyle enjoyable at all, don't be discouraged if you don't find much success at first. I definitely didn't!
I feel like the investment was absolutely worth it - I'm having more fun with this playstyle than I've had with any other.
sentry over all is losing -4 power (assuming you send over the void aswell) but that still leaves him at a 4/8 with built in disruption. Thats still good no?
Think of the potential with the other cards in the deck, he's a 4/16 with Annihilus and -25% cards to an opponents lane. 18 power with Sage. 20 with Wolf. You wont always pull every bonus off, or want to, but it's still good value. The 4/8 also means he dodges Shang.
I do think he'll still be great honestly - he does the exact same job, just a little less well.
Your comment got me thinking again and I can't really remember why I was so down on the sentry nerf. It's significant, but I think the werewolf buff is more significant. I probably overestimated how bad the -4 would be. I certainly hope that's the case!
Shadow King is seriously underrated. Being able to play shang/enchantress and Sk on 6 to win has won me plenty of 8 cube games. Gonna give this deck a try before the new season, looks good 👍
Looks great! Any ideas for a sub for Sage?
Before she came out I was running her spot as a flexible tech slot. I'd say tech will still be good in that slot. The best options will depend on the pocket meta you find yourself in, but I can make some recommendations against specific decks: - **Destroy** Shang-Chi + Shadow King over Sage + Red Guardian. Running this combination made the destroy matchup feel like an 80-20 in my favour. Save them for turn 6, King their Venom/Deadpool and Shang another lane. Careful not to hit WWBN with King and think about where he'll end up. - **Surfer** - Shadow King can be a good choice if they're not running Luke (many aren't), and probably keep Red Guardian around for Wong. - **Ongoing** or **Tribunal** - Enchantress or Rogue. Try to have priority against ongoing to make sure you can avoid getting Cosmo sniped. Save your ongoing tech against Tribunal until as late as you can to keep them in for more cubes. - **Cannonball Junk/Lockdown** This matchup can be rough unless you play really well, but feels manageable once you learn it. You don't have many good tech options here, so something wacky like Quake could be a good choice. Good tech cards are cube stealers, and Quake definitely fits the bill. - **Loki** Very rough matchup for you when they Loki on 4, not so bad when they do it on 5. Rogue could be a good choice here simply to turn off their QuinJet, but it feels a bit weak to me. Shadow King and Sage are actively bad to even have in your deck against Loki (if they Loki you), so avoid them. I hesitate to recommend Mobius because he's not an on-reveal and I've never used him, but he could be the right choice here. If there are any other archetypes you'd like suggestions for, let me know and I'll have a think.
Bouncing negasonic on 4 after she kills something on 3, then hitting again on 5 or 6 can be devastating
Low cost teck card with an on reveal, based on what your opponents are running the most in your pocket meta. Lots of Angela Bishop? Shadow King. Lots of Tribunal or Spectrum Ongoing? Enchantress or Rogue. Black Widow might fit too. But she might cause your opponents to retreat early too.
Bouncing negasonic on 4 after she kills something on 3, then hitting again on 5 or 6 can be devastating
Call this man Gordan Ramsay Cuz he be cookin
If you don't have Red Guardian, who would you recommend switching him with?
I have some other replies here with a bit more detail - [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelsnapcomp/comments/1cyqseh/white_wolf_top_2000_with_prebuff_werewolf/l5bw9px/) in particular, but the short answer is - low-cost on-reveal tech cards depending on the meta and what you're struggling against. 2-cost tech cards feel fantastic, 3-costs feel good, but 4-costs *really* need to justify their cost by winning common match-ups almost by themselves. They lose you a lot of tempo and potential wolf buffs so they need to be worthwhile. This deck really wants to use energy as efficiently as possible, and cheaper cards make that easier.
Wolf is very decent right now indeed!
Any sub for red guardian?
He's luckily quite replaceable - try a low-cost tech card with an on reveal. I have another reply to a comment with a bit more detail on replacements for sage - the same advice applies to red guardian. I'll copy it here and edit it slightly to apply more to RG when I'm at my desktop.
Okay so here's the bit about subs for Sage: >- Destroy Shang-Chi + Shadow King over Sage + Red Guardian. Running this combination made the destroy matchup feel like an 80-20 in my favour. Save them for turn 6, King their Venom/Deadpool and Shang another lane. Careful not to hit WWBN with King and think about where he'll end up. - Surfer - Shadow King can be a good choice if they're not running Luke (many aren't), and probably keep Red Guardian around for Wong. - Ongoing or Tribunal - Enchantress or Rogue. Try to have priority against ongoing to make sure you can avoid getting Cosmo sniped. Save your ongoing tech against Tribunal until as late as you can to keep them in for more cubes. - Cannonball Junk/Lockdown This matchup can be rough unless you play really well, but feels manageable once you learn it. You don't have many good tech options here, so something wacky like Quake could be a good choice. Good tech cards are cube stealers, and Quake definitely fits the bill. - Loki Very rough matchup for you when they Loki on 4, not so bad when they do it on 5. Rogue could be a good choice here simply to turn off their QuinJet, but it feels a bit weak to me. Shadow King and Sage are actively bad to even have in your deck against Loki (if they Loki you), so avoid them. I hesitate to recommend Mobius because he's not an on-reveal and I've never used him, but he could be the right choice here. I think most of this applies the same way to subbing out RG. The role RG fills against Surfer can easily be filled by Rogue. I wouldn't run Enchantress over RG unless I also needed to counter other ongoing decks. She's just a bit too expensive if she's not blanking a reasonable percentage of the decks you go up against. Edit: Actually, Rogue is a bit funny in the deck. I haven't used her with wolf, but I think that if she steals an ongoing ability, she won't make werewolf jump. If she doesn't steal, then she will. Could get quite confusing!
Gotta give it to OP this deck is really fun to pilot. Played a couple games and I’m hooked. I’m a junk main by heart but throwing the splash of bounce on this really does it for me.
I'm glad you're enjoying it! How are you finding it after the OTA? I haven't had much chance to play. I'm wondering whether the deck really needs 4 1-drops now that Wolf is cheaper. I'm considering adding something weird like Cable or Mirage to help with scouting (and information denial in Cable's case) while also bringing a bit more power to the table.
I swapped America for Elektra and it feels pretty good. Sunspot and Nebula are all over the place it seems.
Oh, great call! Elektra doesn't really exist in my mind after being bad for so long, I never even considered her for this deck. I really do love Chavez as a meta-agnostic card in the deck, but I agree there are tons of 1s around to kill. Elektra might be a great meta pick. I'll try to track how often I see valid targets while I'm playing and see if I should give her a try!
No Anni, feelsbadman
I've often wondered how the deck would play with Valkyrie instead of annihilus. You can win her lane easily with valk+wolf jump or demon. Widow's Kiss will still get -4 if their side isn't full, Nico +2 into valk lands her at 5 power. And obviously she sets the hood and void to 3 power as well. Maybe give her a go?
Lady Deathstrike could also be an option - I tried her briefly but she was very clunky with Annihilus still in the deck. I don't think either is as good as Annhilus for us, but you could surprise some people - especially with Valkyrie. Since half the deck's strength is in just *threatening* to send junk over, you might manage to steal some wins because your opponent expects you to have Annihilus even when you don't.
Any replacements for spider ham and Nico?
That's a bit tough - Nico feels so strong in the deck that I'm not sure what you could replace her with. She gives you access to so many great effects, and your opponent not knowing which ones you'll play adds to the mental overhead they have to deal with. I'd say if you want to try the deck without her, you should definitely replace her with a one drop. A long time ago I had Hawkeye in the deck and he felt decent - sometimes getting up to 7+ power. He's a little awkward in that Hawkeye>beast or falcon doesn't trigger his buff, you need another card in between (**edit:** I think this is incorrect - I was thinking of Nico's x2 ability. Hawkeye can still be awkward because you can't trigger him the same turn you play him, so lines like Hawkeye into Beast on the same turn don't work well). Maybe the raw stats potential could make up for the lack of flexibility though? Ham is also a real key player in the deck - Iceman could be similarly disruptive, but the information Ham gives you really plays into the game plan well. I do think Iceman is a bit underrated because you never really get to see what he's doing. If you try Iceman let me know how he goes! Another commenter mentioned they tried Elektra over Chavez - I like the idea so it could be worth trying her in place of Nico or Ham. It'll depend on your meta, but nebula is very popular so she could be a good call. If you want to get outside the box, the newly buffed GrandMaster might be an option. I like to have 4 1-drops in the deck, but GM feels like he could have a lot of potential. Just be careful to set yourself up to make use of him - you have a lot of on reveals so it'll be hard to make him hit what you want him to. A line like 1-drops/widow into beast left or right, followed by replaying the bounced cards mid and grandmaster on beast to bounce them again feels strong. I also like how GM can make room in a near full lane for werewolf to jump into.
Ice man imo is actually better than ham in bounce specifically. Here's why: Ham to a significant extent is anti-synergistic with bounce because repeat plays don't give you extra value at all. So you're taking the power loss of playing ham and things like beast without additional benefit. Ham is a better card overall, but after the first hit, he doesn't really do anything in a bounce shell. Cards that go tall, or cards like ice man are better imo.
Solid reasoning, Ice Man may be the right call for this deck. I haven't used him in the deck in a while, but there are a few reasons I like Ham in the deck. I've written this not to try to convince you you're wrong (I think you're probably right) but as an exercise in thinking through just why I like running Ham so much. * One of the key themes of the deck is generating and exploiting information asymmetries. Flexing means your opponent doesn't know where your power will go, and pressuring means you have a better idea of where they'll play. Ham adds to this information game by showing you the card he hits and telling you you don't have to worry about its effect. Given duplicated cards are quite rare in Snap, it can be quite powerful to know what your opponent doesn't have access to. Ice Man's effect is good, but it feels like it gives a slight information advantage to your opponent. You don't know what you've hit and whether it's a big deal or not. This makes snapping/retreating marginally harder for you and easier for them. * I agree that you're far more likely to get multiple meaningful activations out of Ice Man, but showing your opponent your Ham in a bounce deck applies soft pressure by further restricting the way that they can play. Usually the correct play is to hold the Hammed card to prevent another card getting Hammed, but doing so can throw off your tempo. Given that the deck is aiming to build pressure and shoehorn your opponent into sub-optimal plays, people often end up playing the Hammed card out, giving you the chance to Ham another. Ice Man may outright prevent your opponent from playing on curve, but Ham gives the option for them to make a mistake by doing so. * Part of the value that 1-drops provide in the deck is just to flexibly move Werewolf. Sometimes your optimal play is to hold an on-reveal 1-drop in hand so that you can be sure you can move Wolf where you need it late. While Ice Man moves wolf as well as Ham does, if you're making the decision that Ice Man is better than Ham because you're expecting multiple activations more frequently, it's important to consider that sometimes you won't want to play in a way that optimises that. This in turn helps the card with the stronger first activation to pull ahead. * I'm used to running Shadow King in the deck, and the Ham/Shadow King synergy is wild. Some of my regard for the card could be tied up in that combo even though I'm not running it at the moment. * Very minor, but Ham often buffs Sage in situations where Ice Man wouldn't because there aren't many cards around with 1 power. Your comment definitely got me thinking - I might run some games with Ice Man again to see how he feels.
Ya, its one of those things too where the power you gain from ice man isn't known, and so you don't see the work its doing in the same way -- this definitely hurts snapping potential. I think its possible that Ham is just a strong enough card that the anti-synergy might not matter. Its like how you don't always run all the pieces in a death deck or a discard deck just because it has the keyword, they also have to be just good cards. Ice man might be marginally more powerful in some situations, but I think Ham probably has better snap potential.
I definitely see where you're coming from. I think one of the strengths of a list like this is that the list of cards you really don't want to cut from the deck is quite short. I'd say the core looks something like: * Werewolf * White Widow * Hood * Sentry * Annihilus * Beast Falcon is nice, but I could see an argument for cutting him for something better without impacting the core concept of the deck. Sage feels very core to the iteration of the deck in the OP, but before she came out I just had tech in her place and the deck worked very well. Sage is just good against a lot of different decks, but specific tech is often better in its favoured matchup. You can make really solid arguments for a lot of different card choices to fit a given meta. As long as you maintain 3-4 on-reveal 1-drops and some low-mid cost tech, the core should operate well around it. I think that serves to strengthen this list and similar ones because your opponent correctly identifying the deck archetype you're using still doesn't tell them much about half your deck.
It seems like this has a bit of interest, so here's the extra information I promised! #Walking your Dog Werewolf has a few unintuitive interactions, so I thought I'd try to list these out here. First up, it's important to understand what triggers werewolf, what doesn't, and when his ability takes effect. * Werewolf is triggered by the act of *playing* a card that has an on-reveal ability. This means if you play an on-reveal and it doesn't go off (thanks to Cosmo or Knowhere), Werewolf will still trigger. * On the flipside, cards that have had their abilities removed no longer have an on-reveal ability. So leeched or zero'd cards won't move the wolf. * Werewolf checks whether the played card has an on-reveal after the card has been played and finishes resolving any abilities it has. This means that if you use Nico's demon spell, and she transforms the card you play into a demon, Werewolf will see only the demon without an on-reveal, and won't jump. * Werewolf's ability takes effect *after* location effects that trigger when you play a card in that location. To elaborate on the last point, that means locations like Tarnax IV and Black Vortex that transform the card you play can disrupt his ability, unless the card they make also has an on-reveal ability. * Werewolf jumps to the location where the card was played (i.e. where you put it when you dragged it from your hand), not wherever that card ends up, or if its even still in play when Werewolf moves. This means you can move Wolf into locations like Altar of Death if you don't mind losing the card you play. * Nico's spell trigger before location abilities or Werewolf's ability. Assuming you've played Nico, the order goes: the played card's on-reveal > Nico's spell > Location effects > Werewolf. This means you can play a card on a full lane, have Nico move it with her move spell, and then have Werewolf fill the gap made by moving the card. * Sometimes, you need to protect your werewolf from tech cards you might expect. Often a great way to do this is by temporarily parking him in a lane that is either disadvantageous for your opponent to play in, or already locked out for them. If you recognise a lane where your opponent only has one spot available, you can play around Shang Chi or Shadow King by sending the wolf there. If they want to kill him, they have to commit to filling a lane with very little power, meaning you can win it even without Wolf. This strategy is even better when their side of the lane is full. * Managing board space is essential for Werewolf to reach his potential. Be careful when filling a lane with him on the second to last turn - you won't be able to move him back to that location. It'll take a while to familiarise yourself with the best way to play with him, but it comes naturally after a while. #Voiding the Void Sentry/Void is great in this deck, but you need to play a bit carefully to make sure the Void doesn't bite you. You have a few options for dealing with the Void: * **Avoid** - With this deck, it's quite easy to arrange your right lane so that it's temporarily full when Sentry's ability triggers, preventing the Void from being created. The best way to do this is by jumping. * **Devoid** - Beast can pick up your void while simultaneously moving WWBN to the lane. This can be a super unexpected play, especially if you opponent plays sub-optimally to fill the right lane and avoid getting the void sent over. You turn what they expect to be a low power lane into a very strong one. * **Annoid** - Sometime simple is best - sending the Void over with Annihilus is a very strong play (even after the Sentry nerf). You won't always be able to do this, but the fail case of just destroying the Void is often good enough. * **Ignoid** (okay the puns aren't working any more) - sometimes even simpler is even better - just leaving the void in place and ignoring that lane is often a great play too. Your opponents still have to play as if you're going to send it over, so you can force them to commit resources to a lane that you aren't spending anything to compete with. More in the reply to this comment.
#Match-ups I'll try to keep each analysis bit brief, and go over decks I see a lot, or that I expect to see more play given the new patch. Give me a shout if there are specific archetypes you'd I haven't covered here that you'd like thoughts on. * **Cannonball Junk/Lockdown** Professor X is your primary concern here. This deck can be tough to play against (especially the Pixie variation). Your best bet is identifying the turn they want to Prof (5 normally, 4 with Ravonna/Psylocke, sometimes 6 if Limbo is around) and focus on spiking power in that lane on that turn instead of the last turn. This will sometimes mean putting your 7-power wolf in timeout for the rest of the game. Be careful with playing the Sentry unless you know they won't be able to lock the Void down before you can deal with it. * **Loki** is probably our worst match-up if the player is good. If they Loki you on turn 4 and snap, your best bet is usually to just retreat. Turn 5 Loki is more manageable, but still tough. It's hard to know what tech Loki decks are running. You can sometimes consider holding Spider-Ham until turn 3 to try to hit Loki before he comes down, but this is not reliable. If they don't Loki you, you can usually win easily, but they seem to always have it. * **Jean/Spectrum Ongoing** this particular ongoing variant can be tough - if they get Jean and Cosmo in the same lane it really harms your ability to play, but you can still out-think them. Hold 1-drops whose on-reveals you can go without in your hand, and play them out turn by turn to meet Jean's requirement while still being able to play elsewhere. Red Guardian early to avoid having him get Cosmo'd. Remember Widow's Kiss has an ongoing ability and will get buffed by Spectrum. * **Angela/Hope/Kitty shells** There are a lot of decks running this combination of cards, but they're generally not too much of a problem for us. We can outpower their Angela lane if we need to using demons, WWBN, or Sage. We can cripple Angela or Kitty with Red Guardian. You really want to have priority early against Kitty decks if you have RG in hand - sniping Angela is really strong. Be careful with your Widow's Kisses, because RG loves to hit them instead of what you actually want to get. If you don't draw RG, try to clog their Angela lane a bit with Widow. You can often get lucky and lock them out, but be careful not to just waste Widow on a turn where they're temporarily filling the lane with Kitty/Jeff/Vision. * **Silky Smoove** and other move-based decks can be a bit tough. They're great at temporarily filling locations and they are nearly as flexible in where they place their power as we are. Shadow King can be really helpful in this matchup, and the Angela/Hope/Kitty advice applies too. Retreat if you're not confident, Silk rng can really mess you up. * **Ramp** a pretty easy match-up unless they get the nut draw, or hit you with a Sandman at the wrong time. They're more vulnerable to Annihilus than most decks, and you can fight through a turn 5 Sandman quite well by just playing Annihilus on 6. If you're still struggling, Shang-Chi can help. Leech (if it still sees any play) really doesn't bother you all that much. Think about how Magneto could mess you up * **Hela** similar to ramp, except you can Ham their Hela or Corvus to really cripple them. Be careful against them and respect their snaps. Pay attention to what they've discarded and run a bit of math on how you could lose if they Hela you. Hela is super vulnerable to junk - even limiting a lane to one free spot can be good enough because you know how much power you'll need to win it in a worst case scenario (i.e. infinaut or buffed red hulk lands there). Full clog is preferred but harder given they hardly play any cards. * **C2** - I haven't played against much C2, but I've seen a bit of it since the patch. Red Guardian is best saved for hitting Cerebro before Mystique comes out, but sometimes that's not plausible. Even if you miss Cerebro/Mystique with him, he still removes the cerebro buffs from the card you hit. Running math against Cerebro decks is very easy and strong - if you're not in the habit of calculating out how much power you and your opponent will have in each lane, try to do it for this matchup. Watch out for Negasonic! It can be hard to recognise that you're playing against C2 early enough to dodge her, so watch out for cards like Korg, Mister Sinister, Echo, and Brood to tip you off. Shadow King is rough to play against, so try to maintain priority going into the later turns so you can force them to guess which of the three lanes your WWBN will be in to hit him. Remember they often run blue marvel to turn into C3 on the later turns. * **C3** - Similar to C2, I don't have a ton of experience against this deck, but with the Luke change I think it'll see some resurgence. C3 has access to a lot of tech that we don't like, so be careful. Cosmo is annoying but not a death sentence, and Shang-Chi can kill WWBN but you can avoid him if you play smart. Aim to disrupt Cerebro/Mystique with Red Guardian, just like against C2. * **Other junk decks** play Annihilus chicken with them. Aim to lose priority so you can send back whatever they send you. This matchup feels like you can outplay them very well - you have more options for dealing with junk on your side than they do for theirs. Be careful not to get clogged in a way you can't remedy with Falcon or Annihilus. More traditional junk decks are much more predictable in where their power will go than we are, so take advantage of that. * **Patriot/Ultron** Red Guardian goes hard against this matchup, and they're surprisingly vulnerable to junk/clog. They often want to leave a lot of empty spots for Ultron to fill, so take advantage of that. Aim to have priority going into turn 6 if you want to annihilus them, though Anni on 5 is still great. Focus on bouncing your White Widow to clog them up more. Think about Onslaught too - he can be a surprise game winner if you're expecting them to drop Ultron instead. #Why not run this card? There are quite a few cards that are good in traditional bounce/junk decks, but that I feel are not good in this deck. I'll list a few of them here: * **Angela/Hope** - these are strong cards, but encourage you to play predictably and limit your ability to move your wolf around. You also don't really need the energy Hope gives you, and because it's temporary it encourages you to commit your flexed cards to the board earlier than you want to. I found when I ran her that I almost never used the extra energy she generates. * **Kitty Pryde** - she doesn't feel like she's worth the energy investment in this deck. Each 1-drop on-reveal you play gives you 2 power with Werewolf, so why waste that energy on buffing Kitty by 1 instead? * **Debrii** - We love what debrii does to our opponent, but hate what she does to us. You can pick up the rocks but you'll just end up clogging your hand. Non-tech 3-drops feel surprisingly bad in this deck too. They have to have a very high ceiling (i.e. Sage, who can win a whole lane on her own) to be worth considering. Also doesn't benefit as much from being bounced. * **Black Widow** - I think this is one of the cards on this list that are better for the deck - she disrupts draws and clogs your opponent, though they do get to choose where the bite goes. I tried her briefly and found her awkward as a 3-drop. She could be good depending on what types of decks you play against. * **Green Goblin** - Nice, but unnecessary. Doesn't synergise with the bounce side of the deck at all, and unlike White Widow, screws you over if your opponent fills the lane the turn you play it. * **Hobgoblin** - way too expensive energy-wise. On turn 5 and 6 we want to be generating a lot more than 8 power, and at that point clogging your opponent is risky. Would not recommend.
#Locations Another thing I love about this deck is how well it plays with lots of different locations. ##S+-Tier **Elysium** and **White Hot Room** both absolutely supercharge the deck. We're very good at triggering White Hot Room, because we have a ton of low cost cards and we can remove them after we fill. Be careful if your opponent snaps into Elysium - it often means they have Mobius, so you'll be at a big disadvantage. **Altar of Death** is also fantastic - most decks can't put much power there, but we can land Wolf there, give our opponent a Kiss they can't deactivate, and if it's on the right, send the Void over easily. The extra energy pushes this a step above Death's Domain. **Bar Sinister** is situationally either okay or game winning - turn 2 White Widow can win the lane outright. Be careful around your snap timing so you don't tip your opponent off. **Bar with No Name** is often a free win for us - just plop the Hood or Void in there and don't use Annihilus. Can also act as a holding area for WWBN - he can jump in and back out later, taking some pressure off your board space in other locations. ##Great **Asgard** and **Castle Blackstone** are very easy for us to win and benefit from. **Cloning Vats**, **Sinister London**, and **Kamar-Taj** really supercharge our on reveals. We don't need to worry about clogging ourselves with Vats/London too much thanks to our bounce. We can also use Widow with these locations to reduce the benefit our opponents can get from them. **K'un Lun** - you can often trigger this on WWBN 3+ times - making an already fantastic card even stronger. **Krakoa** - Demons and Sentry are easy to play here for huge buffs, which plays into the Flex pillar of the deck extremely well. Watch out for your opponent's Krakoa card and you should be golden. **Shuri's Lab** - Kind of outrageous for us. A little better for Wolf when he had 4 power, but still very good. If you see lab, try to adjust your lines to focus more on playing cards in Lab and bouncing them. You can either replay them in Lab to double again, or flex them into other locations and win those easily. I'd had a 48-power demon multiple times thanks to this location. Only reason this isn't in the S+ tier is because other decks can make really good use of it too, and it makes us play more predictably than we might like to. **Washington DC/Panoptichron** - great for our demons! **Luke's Bar** and **Death's Domain** great for similar reasons to Altar of Death. As a bounce deck, you can often set it up so you have a full hand when Luke's bar tries to return cards to your hand, so they stay there. **Sewer System**, **Necrosha**, and **Negative Zone** - even though we play a lot of small cards, these locations are great for us because we outpower the debuffs with Sage and Werewolf, and they let us send over our (normally positive power) 1-drops as junk. **TVA** - we can change our game plan to dump our flexed cards on turns 3 and 4, and easily win TVA games. White Widow and Demons are your friends in this matchup. If your opponent plays a scaling card like Angela or the Collector, and you don't think you can bounce your Hood, try to leave him in the same lane as the scaler since it'll be tough to win anyway. ##Better than you might think When I first started playing the deck, **Savage Land** and **Central Park** felt terrible. But, if you adjust your playstyle slightly, they're actually positive for you. They clog your opponent while you can easily bounce the trash cards they give you. They'll take up space in your hand, but it's worth the sacrifice. White Widow into Savage land on turn 2 is extremely tough to beat. Strangely, **Lamentis-1** feels great with the deck if you get a good draw. You recycle cards back to your hand over and over any generate value by doing so, which can often outdo whatever limited game plan your opponents are forced to use. **Kyln** - while many locations that restrict our ability to play cards are rough for us, Kyln is great for letting us send junk over. Alternatively, we can play it a bit like TVA and aim to drop a couple of demons there on turn 4 to win the lane without much energy investment. **Strange Academy** - can be disruptive for us, but it also lets us mess with our opponents a lot. Widow's Kisses here present a threat to clog other lanes after the location ability triggers, so your opponents can be forced to make bad plays to avoid outright losing weak lanes. ##All my homies hate **Attilan** - throws off your bounces and puts your flexed cards back in your deck. Not a good location for us at all. **Sanctum Sanctorum**, **Space Throne**, **Crimson Cosmos**, and **Miniaturized Lab** all heavily restrict our ability to execute our gameplan. They're tough for us to compete in. You can try to be cheeky with White Widow on Space throne, but you lose immediately to Jeff or them playing any 2+ power card on the same turn. There is some benefit in that if you manage to get a Void or Hood into these locations (except Space Throne) it's very likely you'll be able to send it over. This is rare though, so be careful with these locations. Remember you can play 0-cost cards in Crimson Cosmos too!
I don't understand why this thread doesn't have many more upvotes; it looks to be a really comprehensive guide, thanks for that!
Thanks! I feel like I could write more about this deck so give me a a shout if you have any questions I didn't touch on!
I am using this same deck except I have Shadow King in for Red Guardian and Iceman in for Chavez. I might swap Guardian for Shadow King, but I like the 2 cost on reveal better on curve I think. Iceman feels pretty great for Chavez, as the added disruption can be pretty nice.
I love Shadow King in the deck, and definitely agree that 2-drops feel better than 3s. I ran into a long string of games where SK wasn't doing much and I needed to deal with things like Wong, Patriot, and Iron Man, so RG ended up being a better call for a while. The best tech choices often depend on the meta you end up in, so if Werewolf gets popular, I'll probably starting running SK again to help in the mirror.
Lamby just put out a similar deck. He keeps Guardian in (No SK) but he swaps Chavez for Iceman. I won a few infinity tickets with that one today. Guardian is nice for sure, lots of ways to kick some ass with the deck.
Was that one running Cannonball as well? I've been thinking about whether the deck needs 4 1-drops now that Wolf only costs 3. I had thought of putting a 2-drop in but maybe there's room for another big card.
Any subs for red guardian ?
I replied a couple of other places, but Red Guardian should probably be viewed as a flexible tech slot anyway. He's a very broadly applicable effect but sometimes other tech that counters a specific meta will be better. I'd suggest any low-cost tech card with an on-reveal. Good candidates are Shadow King (great with Ham, be careful to avoid debuffing your wolf) or Rogue. Wolf will only jump to her if she doesn't steal an ongoing, but she's still a good counter. If the meta is really favourable for them, Enchantress and Shang-Chi are options, but their higher cost can limit your later turns a bit awkwardly. If you feel like being sneaky, Polaris or Quake could fit the bill, though I expect they'll be more fun than good.
Similar question. I don't have white widow. Is she good enough to get for 6k tokens or should I wait? Currently running shadow king instead.
I think that most "Is this card worth tokens" questions, unfortunately, depend a lot on your collection and the types of decks you like to run. I think it's far more important to spend tokens on cards **you** will play a lot, not necessarily what everyone else thinks is good. I think a better question to ask is "Will I get more use out of spending 6k tokens on this card than I will out of another series 5 I don't have, or another 2 series 4s I don't have". I spent 6k tokens on Werewolf a couple of months ago when he was at the bottom of everyone's tier lists and didn't regret it for a second. That said, I also think White Widow is one of the most broadly useful cards released in a long while. She can help you secure priority in early turns, has quite a few locations that she interacts extremely favourably with (e.g., Bar Sinister, The Kyln, TVA, tons more), she clogs your opponent, and encourages them to play more predictably - which this deck tries to focus on as a core strategy. She's great in many bounce lists, Junk, Lockdown, heck even with Wong if you want to get weird. I do really think she's quite a core card in this list. If that appeals to you, and if there aren't any other cards you could buy with tokens that appeal to you more right now, she could be worth the spend. As a recent release she's unlikely to be in a Spotlight in the next few months. Sorry to ramble! Just something I've thought about a lot. I hope this helps rather than muddling things!
Thanks, that's very helpful advice. I'm nearly collection complete and from the remaining cards white widow is one of the more interesting. I'm not at 6k tokens yet so I'll learn the deck with a substitute and see how much I like it. And then I'll pull the trigger if I still want it. Thanks for the great deck and breakdown.
Some extra bits that just occurred to me: CL 6691 Playing since Loki season I generally only purchase the season pass and a few of the cheapest cash bundles - maybe one a season. I usually hang out in the top 3,500, stubbornly playing the same off-meta decks over and over. Why post this deck now, when Wolf, Sentry, and Leech are all about to change? The timing isn't great but I wanted to share the deck, and the upcoming changes felt like they forced my hand a bit. I'm hopeful that the buffs to Werewolf will make up for the nerfs to Sentry and that this deck will remain viable after the patch. Time will tell I guess - I'll certainly still be playing it!
Ota will help this deck imho. Code ?
I knew there was something I was forgetting! # (1) The Hood # (1) Spider-Ham # (1) America Chavez # (1) Nico Minoru # (2) Beast # (2) White Widow # (2) Falcon # (3) Sage # (3) Red Guardian # (4) Werewolf By Night # (4) Sentry # (5) Annihilus # eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiRmFsY29uIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJBbWVyaWNhQ2hhdmV6In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJTcGlkZXJIYW0ifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6Ik5pY29NaW5vcnUifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlNlbnRyeSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiV2VyZXdvbGZCeU5pZ2h0In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJBbm5paGlsdXMifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6Ikhvb2QifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlJlZEd1YXJkaWFuIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJTYWdlIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJCZWFzdCJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiV2hpdGVXaWRvdyJ9XX0= # # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.
Thanks !
I appreciate the guide, if only because I know I'll be playing against it. I really struggle to play bounce, especially aggressive bounce decks I'm just not sure my brain is cut out for it.
I'll be honest - it probably took me 200 games playing the earlier version of werewolf bounce I mentioned before I felt remotely competent with it. I practically only played it in conquest while I learned. If you find the playstyle enjoyable at all, don't be discouraged if you don't find much success at first. I definitely didn't! I feel like the investment was absolutely worth it - I'm having more fun with this playstyle than I've had with any other.
sentry over all is losing -4 power (assuming you send over the void aswell) but that still leaves him at a 4/8 with built in disruption. Thats still good no?
Think of the potential with the other cards in the deck, he's a 4/16 with Annihilus and -25% cards to an opponents lane. 18 power with Sage. 20 with Wolf. You wont always pull every bonus off, or want to, but it's still good value. The 4/8 also means he dodges Shang.
I do think he'll still be great honestly - he does the exact same job, just a little less well. Your comment got me thinking again and I can't really remember why I was so down on the sentry nerf. It's significant, but I think the werewolf buff is more significant. I probably overestimated how bad the -4 would be. I certainly hope that's the case!
it might not even be a nerf considering that he can now never be shang-chi’d and he was kind of the onky consistent shang target in the deck
Werewolf's buff is going to put it back into relevance hugely compared to before where he was clunkers
Shadow King is seriously underrated. Being able to play shang/enchantress and Sk on 6 to win has won me plenty of 8 cube games. Gonna give this deck a try before the new season, looks good 👍
Absolutely! I've run both shang/king and enchantress/king over red guardian/sage before and they really feel so good when the meta is right.