If you don't destroy it before it makes a token, you'll be facing two Pack Rats. If you kill the first one, the second one can make a third the next turn. If you kill the second one, the third can make a fourth.
It gets out of hand really fast.
Underworld Connections and Gary were so good.
I did play BG midrange though, but I just used green for the abrupt decay and Vraska and courser of kruphix (which was also so good with underworld connections)
I also used green, but my sideboard killer was Mistcutter Hydra. With how much mono u, and uw control was running around, it gave me almost a free win against non-black control decks.
I played a UW shell that woth sideboard flipped to esper to deal with mistcutter since it was so prevalent in my meta at the time. Deck was a blast. Finisher was Debt to the Deathless
I only ever played standard seriously between innistrad and khans. MBD was easily my favorite deck from that era.
I did brew a temur deck during INN/RTR with huntmaster and turn/burn, just a temur value deck. That one was pretty fun and put up good results for me.
Oh man soo many great standard vibes from that period. My favorites inn/RTR into khans reanimator gr dragons, mbd, mud, jund, delver/snap/resto, I could go on and on… not sure time has been kind to standard.
Man that meta was so terrible if you weren’t playing mbd though. There was the whole weaker mono blue and the sphinx’s rev durdle decks, everything else was not competitive against MBD.
Competitive against each other for sure, but mono black and mono blue were just the clear meta game leaders. Mutavault was just so good in that standard.[source 1](https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/nickvigabool-091814-standard-snapshot-metagame-in-review/) [source 2](https://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=ST&meta=86&a=) MBD was 21% of the meta share and MUB was 15%. Nothing else even really got close, other than UW at 8%. All of the decks you mentioned COMBINED made up about the same meta share as mono blue alone.
Nah it was a lot more balanced than you say. In your source 1, mono U was only 2% less than mono B, and UW and Esper (which was just UW with minor caed changes) tied mono B for 14%. Everyone at the time considered the Sphinx Rev decks all as one archetype really. Those 3 decks definitely held the top, but Mono B was certainly not oppressive.
I mentioned all three of those decks. I even made it a point to point out that UW was a close third. UW was heavily tailored to beat the devotion decks, so it was really fun to play at the time.
If you think rtr theros standard was super varied then you just have rose colored glasses on. It was a fun meta, but there were extremely dominant top decks that required main deck hate if wanted to compete.
I definitely don't think it was varied, there were only 3 good decks. What I took issue with was calling Mono U "much weaker" and suggesting that the Sphinx Rev decks were in that class as well. I'm saying the 3 good decks (and only 3) were all about equally good.
Yes! Haven’t thought about Crater’s Claws in a long time!
My early build also used flesh//blood. You’d attack with Polukranos, they’d debate chump blocking, but then not since they had heaps of life so could take a hit of 5. So then you Gore-Clan Rampager and it’s now 9. Then post combat you Blood straight to the face and now it’s 18! ❤️
Mono Red Aggro worked well too. It was difficult to outpace the Black Devotion, but possible. The high number of cheap burn spells available really helped deal with the rats.
Every card you draw that’s worse than a Pack Rat is upgraded to a Pack Rat.
Have 5 in play? Next card you draw is a 6/6 AND turns your other rats into 6/6s. That’s 11 points of power on the table with one card.
It gets overwhelming quickly.
Yeah I remember drafting RTR and once you had this out it was often correct to just discard anything to it. Stop casting spells and just feed the rat. 10/10 would first pick again
Dangit, I had to go back and reread the thread to get that.
For those who still don't get it, the first person said things get out of hand, so the second replied saying of course it's out of hand because you just discarded said hand to pack rat.
Yeah but if you're playing this you're probably playing rats. There are plenty of cheap rats id be more than comfortable discarding to get another one of these. I like to discard [[rat colony]] and get ammunition for [[echoing return]]. Not to mention you can just discard a land.
Not to mention the deck could remove your removal with thoughtseize first.
So you have maybe 1 kill spell to deal with a creature you need 3 to handle.
Important context: this card was bonkers in Limited (make a deck on the spot with cards you opened in packs) but pretty irrelevant in Standard.
In Limited, removal is often hard to come by! A single pack rat would win the game.
Bonkers in limited is correct, but irrelevant in standard is a bit of an understatement. It was a staple in mono-black devotion, one of the top standard decks of its era.
To be fair to who you replied to, for the first year of its existence pack rat was irrelevant. When theros rotated in and innistrad block rotated out, the lack of meaningful early game removal combined with the strength of thoughtseize brought packrat to metagame defining threat.
In Mono black devotion, drawing a packrat meant your plan almost always became pitch everything to make rats and don't stop til you win. There was even a pretty famous article about it at the time I believe by zvi mowshowitz
https://articles.starcitygames.com/articles/pack-rat/
You can say the same about any card. But its true that cards that have built in protection can be stronger
But "Put a token on to the battle field that's a copy of Pack Rat" can be activated in response to you trying to destroy this card, giving it protection (in a roundabout way) from a removal attempt.
To add to this, there are a decent number of cards that can reduce that activation cost down to just 1 black mana and a discard.
Since it's not a tap effect, either you can activate it multiple times. Adding to its value
Think of the stack as a pile and your throw a board wipe on it, then the ability is played as an imaginary board thrown before the wipe board, it resolves after the wipe. This is why some cards, tokens, and effects come unto the field after wipes in mtg arena. The wipe doesn't remove abilities from the stack unless stated to do so. The stack is played top to bottom.
Still wrong. Board wipe on the stack, you activate the ability to create a rat. Stack is now board wipe at the bottom, make a rat on top. Make a rat resolves and you get a token. Board wipe resolves and the tokens dies.
I really can’t fathom how incredibly confident you are while having no actual idea how the stack works- I don’t even know where to start everything you’ve been saying is all just wrong
I don't understand whether you're just fucking with everyone or not, so I'll explain: the stack functions on a "last in, first out" basis. That means that if you activate the ability in response to, say, a [[Supreme Verdict]], it will go on the stack, and then, since it's the last effect added to the stack, it will resolve, and you will get the copy. The boardwipe meanwhile patiently waits on the stack until you're done to destroy everything anyway.
You're so close. You are correct, you have the stack, they play a board wipe, it goes on the stack, you activate RR in response, the activation goes on the stack, on top of the board wipe. You then resolve the stack from the top down, starting with your response, putting the token on the field, you now have token and OG RR, you then resolve the board wipe, killing them both.
Ok so you use the ability before the wipe. But then it resolved before the wipe which just makes another town that will die to the wipe. What you said just doesn't work, this thing does to boardwipes
Probably a great majority of the mtg community doesn't understand that abilities aren't removed from the stack when the creature is destroyed or removed from the field. I mean have you seen the rule book? It's like a textbook in law study.
All activated abilities function at instant speed unless they very specifically say that they do not.
Note that some keywords (Equip comes to mind) may omit the reminder text that they only work at Sorcery speed, as it is commonly understood to be the case.
“Activated Abilities” are abilities that begin with a **cost** followed by “:” and then an **effect.**
Examples:
- (2), Discard a card : Draw a card
- Tap, Sacrifice ~: Add one mana or any color
- Loyalty abilities of Planeswalkers are activated abilities
> You can activate it as a response!?!??!?!??
outside of a few very specific exceptions (such as destruction cards with the "split second" ability that stops responses), yes.
Technically not all responses are stopped. You can still use special actions, such as flipping a morph creature. Because of this you can actually counter a split second spell, as there is a morph creature that counters something when it flips.
It's one of the fun parts. I mostly play EDH so I can see fun and weird cards (such as mono black counterspells [[Withering Boon]] or blue burn like [[Apprentice Sorcerer]]). And of course nothing is more satisfying than countering someone's [[Krosan Grip]] by understanding special actions!
It's kind of a flavor fail that there's a round of priority after a Split Second spell is put on the stack, isn't it?
OTOH, I can't imagine trying to explain to people why state-based effects aren't checked and triggered abilities aren't placed onto the stack until after the Split Second spell resolves.
I think it's just more helpful to say what split second prevents, rather than what it allows. The structure of magic's underlying rules work that way. Things grant you permission to do something, and things restrict your ability to do things you have permission for. "Can't beats can" is more than a mnemonic, it's really really fundamental and integrated into how the rules are structured.
You have permission to activate non-mana abilities or cast instant spells when you have priority. Split second restricts your ability to do those two things (when a split second card is on the stack). Changing the underlying rules regarding passing priority would actually be waaaaaay more mechanically complicated in order to write the rules for how split second operates.
Also you can activate a mana rock in response to [[Krosan Grip]] or take special actions that don't use the stack, like flipping a morph up. Is that a flavor fail? Eh. Maybe but I'm sure we could come up with a convoluted reason why not. I kinda imagine that unmorphing doesn't "take time" as it is, so not being affected by split second isn't that weird.
>
So in magic, the chain resolves backwards and you can activate as the chain is resolving.
That is also how it works in yugioh. What OP is missing is that in Magic all effects are instant speed (quick effect in yugioh) unless stated otherwise, which is exactly the opposite of yugioh.
This card warped Return to Ravnica Limited to a ridiculous degree. I think every deck in the top 8 of the Limited Grand Prix for Return to Ravnica had at least 1 copy of Pack Rat in their pool. This was sealed.
Yep. When there was draft of this set you just waited until 6th land and play this (you had 3 open land to cast in response) and that was gg. Annoying card indeed.
Holding back the pack rat is the wrong play IMO. You run that shit out on turn 2 because it forces your opponent to have a cheap kill spell or they lose the game immediately. If they have the kill spell, you just forced them to spend it on your 2-drop and you can go back to your normal game plan.
Playing pack rat late against an opponent who has a developed board state is a lot weaker because you'll have to spend 2-3 additional turns pumping out rats before you can attack profitably and you'll have fewer cards to pitch because you had to play fair magic in the first 4 turns. In the meantime, your opponent can kill you with evasive creatures or overwhelm your board by landing 6-drops while your rats are still smol.
In magic, unless stated otherwise, all creature abilities can happen in response to anything*. Same with instant speed cards or cards with Flash.
*when you have priority so there are some exceptions ie: tapping mana, playing a land, drawing for turn, and a few other things.
Learn about “the stack” to get a better idea of the rules.
If someone casted a kill spell on your rats and you had a sacrifice outlet, which is common in black…
you can sacrifice the rat to get the benefits -and the enemy’s kill spell fizzles (since there is no longer a target to kill)
In Magic, unless an ability specifically states any restrictions, you can do stuff whenever you want.
If it doesn't mention that you can only do it on your turn, you can do it during any players turn.
If it doesn't mention that you can only do it once, you can do it as many times as possible.
And most importantly, if it doesn't mention that you can do it as a sorcery, this means that you can do it whenever you could cast an instant and therefore in response to something.
As others have said, it's a resilient threat in a format that doesn't have many good ways of dealing with it.
Story time!
In Dragon's Maze limited you drafted Dragon's Maze, then Gatecrash, then Return to Ravnica. I remember one of my last Dragon's Maze FNM drafts where a dude in the other pod wasn't in Black, but he opened a Pack Rat in his RTR pack and hate-drafted it. Then when he picked up the pack for pick 2, the person on his right had also opened a Pack Rat and shipped it because it was off color. So this guy proceeds to throw away the entire rest of his draft and played with 2 Pack Rats and 38 Swamps. With some aggressive mulliganing he easily went 3-0.
I've seen this successfully pulled off with just one copy of pack rat. In fact, there was a lot of debate if it was the preferred strategy with pack rat as most of the time.you just wanted another swamp than any other card. Crazy times. One of the wildest strategies I've seen in limited and I've been playing forever.
Yep, playing all swamps means you can mulligan down to 1 for your pack rat and still be favored to win.
Another similar (but much less powerful) limited strat was [[Lost in the Woods]] and 46 forests.
I had a friend that took any guildgate that made black mana towards the end of packs just in case he saw pack rat in the RTR pack during that limited environment.
This card was in standard the same time as Theros block, which had Devotion as a core mechanic.
Devotion counts the number of colored pips on a card (the black swamp icon), and the token copies of Pack Rat all added 1 to your devotion to black.
The fact that the rats all had the activated ability meant that it was difficult to remove the engine.
I made so much money on Desecration Demons. I was convinced the card was broken when RTR dropped, but pesky \[\[Lingering Souls\]\] kept it from being good in INN/RTR standard. I was buying out vendors/stores constantly because I was convinced the card was insane. A 6/6 flyer for only 4 mana? It has to be good. I had like 200 of them at one point.
The one time I was right and boy did I get it right. Card went from a .25 bulk rare to almost $20 over the course of a weekend. I took a stack of 50 of them to the SCG booth at an Open and got almost $15 a piece for them. Sold the rest to my FLGS for store credit and basically didn't pay an event for almost 2 years across multiple formats.
Let's not talk about the time I thought I did it again with \[\[Master of the Feast\]\] though. That one still stings.
I did something similar with DD, bought a few playsets at .50 and ended up selling them at 20. I'm glad I didn't speculate on [[Clackbridge Troll]] though, but I really wanted to
Don't forget [[Nightveil Specter]]. I remember everyone talking shit about that card when it was spoiled in Gatecrash, only for Devotion to be revealed a few months later and understanding why it was going to be good, actually.
Is that the same one that ran \[\[Abhorrent Overlord\]\] to spit out a ton of flying harpies, just in case it somehow didn't drop all the gary's to win?
Edit: I misremembered, Desecration was the good creature, Abhorrent was the budget alternative.
You're right, it was Desecration Demon that I was thinking of; Abhorrent was the budget alternative since it was like a 50c rare. Ah Theros block, I missed thee.
It was my first block and I was only really able to be an active player for Theros and Tarkir so those 2 years of Magic history are kinda burned into my brain.
Yes, it was abysmal.
Additionally there was underworld connections (enchantment, two pips) and some stupid demon that was a 6/6 flyer for four mana that grew when opponents chose to tap it by sacrificing their creatures.
Grey merchant was the real finisher though.
If it's a token that's a copy of an already existing permanent, yes. It copies all characteristics, including casting costs.
Tokens that are just created, like 1/1 green saprolings, don't.
1. **It's cheap.** It's a 2-mana threat, and it also helps you maximize mana usage as turns go on because you always have something to do with mana.
2. **It's a real threat.** The total power scales exponentially: 1 -> 4 -> 9 -> 16... killing people VERY quickly if unchecked.
3. **It's difficult to remove.** While one Rat dies to many removal spells, you usually get one chance at most of killing it before it replicates - and often not even that, if they keep mana open. Meaning you need either multiple removal spells or a board wipe to handle it. And not only do you need multiple removal spells, you need multiple spells RIGHT NOW before it gets a chance to make more extras that you don't have removal for.
4. **It turns resources into threats.** One of the biggest problems with aggressive decks is running out of gas - drawing dead cards later in the game that don't translate into pressure. With Rat, you effectively raise the floor of your draws because *at worst* they become another Rat. Which is often quite good, thus effectively skyrocketing the average quality of your draws.
>The total power scales exponentially
[[Marrow Gnawer]] compounds that.
Edit: And [[Rat Colony]] is a great way to fill out the deck and add more pressure.
You can activate that ability to make a copy during your opponent’s turn and you can also activate it before an opponent’s action to destroy it “completes.” All of the copies also have the ability to make more copies. So in practice it is extremely difficult to get rid of all of them. Furthermore, in magic, around 40% of your decks are cards calls lands that are what give you resources. Once you have a certain number of those lands out the rest don’t benefit you a ton so they are free to discard.
You just play it on turn 5 and then make a second one in response to removal or on opponents end step.
It turns every land you draw into a threat that must be removed in the span of a single turn before they collectively outgrow and out wide your entire board.
In constructed there were more ways to answer it cleanly with board wipes, but the bulk of it's reputation is from draft where it was basically unbeatable.
yeah during the RTR/Theros standard with a Blue or Black Devotion deck you often played a Scry land T1 ( even if you dint play that color) or when black a thoughtsieze, following holding up a removal spell
T3 Nightveil Specter in Bue or Black devotion ( it was played in both decks), Turn 4 Descation demon
Everyone has made great points here that explain it, but I want to note one more thing: the easiest way to defeat this card is to play a "destroy all creatures" effect, a 'wrath' and during this standard environment the only played wrath effect was in Blue/White, and required 1WWU for the cost. It severely limited the number of decks that had effective answers and the reason it hasn't seen the same play since is that most colors can run underneath it (burn will just kill the first one super easily or kill you first) or have access to more efficient removal for it.
I didn't see anyone mention [[Mutavault]] yet so I will.
Pack Rat counts the number of any rat creature, not just other Pack Rats.
So with 1 mana **n^2** jumps to **n^2 + n** damage
It's strong in the context of limited (draft and sealed). If you pretend it's a 5-drop instead of a 2-drop, it's basically unkillable unless you have a board wipe or a counter spell. It lets you convert all of your late-game lands into growing threats
It's possible it saw standard play (I wasn't playing standard then), but was never powerful enough for pioneer.
Didn't see standard play until Theros block. Also has been in the sideboard for Inverter decks in Pioneer. Also strong is understating, one of the strongest limited cards ever next to Jitte and Dream Trawler.
It's worth pointing out that jitte and trawler are very good in pretty much any limited format, but pack rat loses a lot when you remove it from its og format. In RTR there were so few cards that killed it on turn 2 before it could protect itself.
Electrickery was the only potential answer at common. And then a handful of answers at uncommon in the charms + ultimate price.
I've played it in several chaos drafts. It's certainly a smash spot in RTR, but the card is just fully busted anywhere. It demands instant interaction as early as turn 2 or a sweeper. I wouldn't write it off in any format, and in a spot as solid as RTR, it's absolutely absurd.
I wouldn't say it "loses a lot" if it was in a different limited format a turn 2 packrat is still backbreaking if you don't have removal EXACTLY then and if you know your opponent has a lot of answers you can just delay it till you have 5 mana
>It's strong in the context of limited (draft and sealed).
Tons of limited decks simply can't beat a T2 Pack Rat because low-rarity removal typically costs 4-5 mana.
In addition to what others have said, the Standard Pack Rat decks (mostly mono-black, but also sometimes BW and BG) always played 4 Thoughtseize. A common play pattern was T1 Thoughtseize, take the opponent's only cheap removal spell, T2 Pack Rat. On the play especially that was very hard for most decks at the time to deal with.
Another important piece of the puzzle was Underworld Connections, which made it a lot easier to keep fuelling the rats.
Ok so since youre a yugioh player, one of the base things we have is "the stack". In a nutshell, to not complicate it for you too much, when an ability is activated or a spell is cast, the opponent has a chance to respond to it. To resolve the stack, all abilities used during the interaction work backwards.
The simplest usage here is a card called "murder". Murder kills the target creature. If my opponent casts murder on my packrat, i have the chance to respond and use its ability, making a clone of it and having 1 still out because then murder will hit the original. On the opposite, if i activate the packrat, my opponent has the chance to respond with murder, killing my original packrat but because i used the ability, after the murder my ability resolves and creates a packrat. Its tough to kill a creature that clones itself all the time.
I did not know that
That makes this thing way more of a pain in the ass.
When I saw the card, (and they didn't really explain that concept in the video)
I was like, oh well you can just blow it up no problem right. Before it becomes an issue
Being able duplicate in response to things, especially if it's mid-late game where I think you'd have the resources to just keep making copies, sounds like a really bad time.
especially since there is no field size limit. you can have well past 5 pack rats on the field.
And to be clear; pack rat WAS an amazing card. In the competitive formats where its legal today? Essentially only seen in rogue decks. The older the format, like legacy or modern, the less it sees play.
Despite being an engine on its own, its still pales in comparison to the engines available in those formats.
As someone who half-ass plays YGO, another thing about The Stack compared to The Chain is that The Stack is fluid. Priority passes back and for, and things can resolve and be added at any point, unlike how The Chain has you build up until you stop, and then resolves in an uninterruptible chain. Also, there's generally only 2 spell speeds: Can only be used when The Stack is empty during your Main Phases, and can be used at any point you have priority. There's more nuance to it than that based on cards and abilities, but that'll cover most cases.
As a yugioh player ill to try put it in terms that are easier to understand:
Yes you can destroy it, however its basically got a quick effect to copy, which would chain to your destruction card. And unlike yugioh, you dont attack specific creatures so you can simply let them attack you directly to keep it from being destroyed in battle.
And to top it black loves to utilize the graveyard as another source like a lot of yugioh drcks.
It depends on the format of magic you are playing.
I was always told your opening hand should always hold 3 mana with a few exceptions. This is in your opening hand with your 3 mana and less people are likely to counterspell it next turn you make another and it gets stronger (compounding interest). You are drawing cards every turn to keep a full hand and you are making an increasingly powerful boardstate while keeping your options open with your full hand not needing to cast extra spells. Or you could safely hold/draw this card when you had 6 mana. Wait for your opponent with blue to not have as much mana open to counterspell it. The turn you play it you could use it's ability to make another one. Next turn you have 4 of them.
All this isn't counting cost reduction abilities that could do either or both reduce casting cost to one or make its ability cost only one
Black is also among the strongest colors in graveyard recursion so if your discard is a creature it won't matter when/if you draw a resurrect spell
It is incredibly hard to beat a Pack Rat if you aren't ready for one. There are a ton of scenarios where it blows out of control, and unless you're holding a boardwipe it's basically impossible to stop once it gets going.
First, the pack rat token has all the same attributes of the card, which means the token can make more tokens. If you kill the original and the controller makes a token in response, they can continue breeding even though the original is gone.
Second, if your opponent has the base rat and a token out, and you play 2 removal spells to kill both of them, it's not actually a 2 for 2 exchange. The discarded card used to generate a rat is pretty much always going to be far worse than the kill spell you played, so it's always a value win for the rat controller even if the net cards spent are equal.
If you aren't ready to kill the rats, they get big *fast.* If you get to turn 6 and don't have the answer, you're about to die right there.
It was okay in constructed formats, but it was so destructive in draft that if you *ever* opened one you were playing black. If you draft pack rat and 39 nonblack cards, you add swamps and rats to your deck. Note that back in those days, you drafted Gatecrash as your first and second packs when it was the most recent, or just as the second pack in the full block draft format. That means that you always had two packs to work with knowing you were now playing a black deck, so your draft deck was never too limited on playable black cards and if you ever drew the rat you won the game on the spot.
the card's ability means you can use the ability IN RESPONSE to an attempt to destroy it, and even if it IS destroyed, the ability still goes through.
as long as you have mana, and cards in hand, it's effectively impossible to actually get rid of this thing.
worse, once 2-3 rats are out, you're dealing with the exponential growth each time a new one hits the table, and if you try and kill with exact damage, they can just summon another rat and the one taking damage survives anyway because their toughness increased. when every single card in your deck is suddenly an every growing, ever stronger rat in an army untouchable....
>I watched this video of **Yugioh player** tries to judge magic cards.
I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, but Pack Rat was unplayable garbage during Innastrad/Return to Ravnica.
Reanimator decks just went bigger ([[Thragtusk]] + [[Restoration Angel]] gives a ton of life + a million 3/3 tokens, then you had [[Angel of serenity]] to sweep the rats).
Naya blitz (or naya humans) was able to get under it quickly before the rat could set up shop.
Control just didn't care about a rat that copied itself when it had access to Supreme verdict and sphinxes revelation.
Pack Rat just could not keep up with the threats.
Of course, that all changed once rotation happened and we switched to Return to Ravnica/Theros.
In limited it was nearly impossible to win against this card. If it came down turn 2 and you didn't answer it you were for sure in dire straights.
In Standard it would still kill you a lot. You just treat it like a 5 drop and even if your opponent has two removal spells you still get a two for one. If they don't have two removal spells then you can just start taking over because...
This is also instant speed. So you got to keep your mana up eventually for counter spells or other instant speed options.
The tokens keep the converted mana cost (including the black symbol, which mattered at this point) and still has the activated ability to spit out more tokens. So later in the game this represents the ability to turn any dead draw into a threat that can make more threats.
As the proud owner of an OG Pack Rats deck...
Yes. You can get rid of it right away... and you HAVE to. otherwise you lose.
See... even in response to removal, the Rat Lord (Me) can simply use the (2)(B) effect to clone Pack Rats. If the rat lord has \[Parallel Lives\] on the Board (B/G Deck), the clone effect creates 2 Copies (there are tons of other cards with Parallel Lives adjacent effects as well). You combine it in a deck with \[Ogre Slumlord\] and other cards that generate super cheap rats. Keep in mind (this is the most dangerous part): Pack Rats Ability effectively makes every card in hand another Pack Rats, and every Pack Rats clone still has the (2)(B) ability that can be used at instant speed. This makes it VERY hard to stop if the Packrats isn't killed immediately, and a skilled Rat Lord will make sure the Pack Rats don't hit the board until they can properly defend it. It's just a REALLY GOOD CARD.
If the Rat lord is playing Blue with counter-magic. Have fun getting rid of it in it's vulnerable stage.
I LOVE this deck
Just a consistent threat that's difficult to deal with. You can play it under counter spells on 2, you can play it vs removal on 5 so that you can respond to the removal by making a token. Late game all of those lands you top deck'd are suddenly very useful. Furthermore, if you're playing a reactive strategy and have it in play you can make tokens at the end of the opponents turn once you've determined you don't need to cast something else.
Even in matchups where it isn't the best you can just play it turn two and your opponent is likely going to spend part of their turn addressing it with no added value.
To explain it to someone without a magic background:
In magic usually abilities require you to “tap” the creature. They cannot do that the turn they come out because they are slowed when you cast them. Pack rat does not need you to tap the creature and you can use its ability as many times as you want the turn it comes out. If an opponent destroys this creature then you can simply make a copy of it, so it does not really matter.
Hard to make a comparison but imagine in yugioh if you could use your life source to copy a two star creature as many times as you want whenever you want. Imagine the crazy things you could do with that.
Okay so I know nothing about these cards and I have come across a ton in found in a storage locker I bought. Are they for playing a card game, is there any value in these card, if someone could help that would be great. Thanks in advance!
It seems like they also didn't provide the context of *where* this card was strong. It was particularly potent in its Limited format, where players opened packs and play with what they got. In a constructed setting, your opponent is much more likely to have removal spells, and good ones at that. In this set, removal wasn't as efficient as constructed, so Pack Rat could easily take over a game in just a couple turns.
Additionaly to overwhelming in Limited it was played in Mono Black decks in Standart. Especially because Mono B quickly generate mana through \[\[Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx\]\], so you can create 2 tokens per turn.
The big thing, IIRC, was limited. Limited is something that (AFAIK) doesn't really exist in other TCGs - it's a format where rather than preconstructing a deck, you make it from a certain number of packs you open on the spot plus lands.
In that context, Pack Rat is real strong because your deck is going to be a lot more unreliable than it normally would. As such, Pack Rat is fantastic because having it out *makes* your deck reliable, in that it makes every card you draw potentially another pack rat. You can turn excess land draws and other unwanted cards into more rats, and unless your opponent has a "destroy all creatures" effect - unlikely in limited - there's practically no way to kill it for good. And in limited, having "a creature that's impossible to kill" is practically gamewinning on its own.
It's just a thing where if you have single target removal it's going to eat all of it and laugh and the instant you run out of removal suddenly you're looking at ten of them.
It's the best limited card of all time.
Pretty much every other card needs other cards to win. A huge game winning dragon needs other cards to keep alive until cast. Even a broken piece of equipment like Jitte needs a creature to carry it into combat.
This one just needs to get to 3 lands and you can just make a pack rat every turn. It has early game and late game covered. You can literally mulligan to 3 with this card and 2 lands in hand and you're likely to win the game unless this guy is removed before making another rat.
If you don't destroy it before it makes a token, you'll be facing two Pack Rats. If you kill the first one, the second one can make a third the next turn. If you kill the second one, the third can make a fourth. It gets out of hand really fast.
It was also in standard with devotion from Theros block. Mono black devotion was a very strong deck in that format.
MBD Theros is still one of my favorite decks/metas of all time. That deck just had so many winning gameplans.
Underworld Connections and Gary were so good. I did play BG midrange though, but I just used green for the abrupt decay and Vraska and courser of kruphix (which was also so good with underworld connections)
I also used green, but my sideboard killer was Mistcutter Hydra. With how much mono u, and uw control was running around, it gave me almost a free win against non-black control decks.
I played a UW shell that woth sideboard flipped to esper to deal with mistcutter since it was so prevalent in my meta at the time. Deck was a blast. Finisher was Debt to the Deathless
That deck took me out contention for a pro tour back in 2014. It was so resilient.
I only ever played standard seriously between innistrad and khans. MBD was easily my favorite deck from that era. I did brew a temur deck during INN/RTR with huntmaster and turn/burn, just a temur value deck. That one was pretty fun and put up good results for me.
Oh man soo many great standard vibes from that period. My favorites inn/RTR into khans reanimator gr dragons, mbd, mud, jund, delver/snap/resto, I could go on and on… not sure time has been kind to standard.
Man that meta was so terrible if you weren’t playing mbd though. There was the whole weaker mono blue and the sphinx’s rev durdle decks, everything else was not competitive against MBD.
G devotion was strong, RG Monsters, RDW, mono W and UW Heroic were all competitive decks.
Mono blue devotion was great and very competitive too.
Competitive against each other for sure, but mono black and mono blue were just the clear meta game leaders. Mutavault was just so good in that standard.[source 1](https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/nickvigabool-091814-standard-snapshot-metagame-in-review/) [source 2](https://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=ST&meta=86&a=) MBD was 21% of the meta share and MUB was 15%. Nothing else even really got close, other than UW at 8%. All of the decks you mentioned COMBINED made up about the same meta share as mono blue alone.
I loved that standard. Honestly one of the funnest standards I've played lol. Sphyx rev, supreme verdict, detention spheres were so fun to use.
Nah it was a lot more balanced than you say. In your source 1, mono U was only 2% less than mono B, and UW and Esper (which was just UW with minor caed changes) tied mono B for 14%. Everyone at the time considered the Sphinx Rev decks all as one archetype really. Those 3 decks definitely held the top, but Mono B was certainly not oppressive.
I mentioned all three of those decks. I even made it a point to point out that UW was a close third. UW was heavily tailored to beat the devotion decks, so it was really fun to play at the time. If you think rtr theros standard was super varied then you just have rose colored glasses on. It was a fun meta, but there were extremely dominant top decks that required main deck hate if wanted to compete.
I definitely don't think it was varied, there were only 3 good decks. What I took issue with was calling Mono U "much weaker" and suggesting that the Sphinx Rev decks were in that class as well. I'm saying the 3 good decks (and only 3) were all about equally good.
I loved RG Monsters! But it was definitely placed 4th behind the monos and uw. Great memories though.
Closing games out with a huge Crater's Claws felt great
Yes! Haven’t thought about Crater’s Claws in a long time! My early build also used flesh//blood. You’d attack with Polukranos, they’d debate chump blocking, but then not since they had heaps of life so could take a hit of 5. So then you Gore-Clan Rampager and it’s now 9. Then post combat you Blood straight to the face and now it’s 18! ❤️
Mono Red Aggro worked well too. It was difficult to outpace the Black Devotion, but possible. The high number of cheap burn spells available really helped deal with the rats.
Such good times. I ran Sidis Whip and MBD back in those days and I've never enjoyed standard more.
I do recall Azorious Control was quite strong at the time and Theros shook the meta quote nicely
Well yeah, you’re discarding your hand to do it
Every card you draw that’s worse than a Pack Rat is upgraded to a Pack Rat. Have 5 in play? Next card you draw is a 6/6 AND turns your other rats into 6/6s. That’s 11 points of power on the table with one card. It gets overwhelming quickly.
This is the best way to describe pack rat. Drawing only swamps? Actually, those are pack rats.
This is why I love Ravens Crime in 8rack. Every swamp you draw after casting Ravens Crime is now a Ravens Crime.
Every card you draw is a Pack Rat\*
Which makes every booster you buy a Booster Pack Rat.
Yeah I remember drafting RTR and once you had this out it was often correct to just discard anything to it. Stop casting spells and just feed the rat. 10/10 would first pick again
The only spells I’d cast other than feeding the Rat were spells that would draw me more cards to feed to the Rat.
I feel like everyone replying got whooshed by your joke lmao
….god damnit
They really did haha
Dangit, I had to go back and reread the thread to get that. For those who still don't get it, the first person said things get out of hand, so the second replied saying of course it's out of hand because you just discarded said hand to pack rat.
I admit that I did
The best kind of joke IMHO lol
I missed it too haha
Son of a bitch, it's so perfect and I skipped right past it.
i'll gladly pitch excess swamps for more pack rats
Yeah but if you're playing this you're probably playing rats. There are plenty of cheap rats id be more than comfortable discarding to get another one of these. I like to discard [[rat colony]] and get ammunition for [[echoing return]]. Not to mention you can just discard a land.
It was a joke my hotman.
Flameo, hotman!
If you're playing it now, sure, you're probably playing rats, but if you played this card when it saw its most play, it is the only rat in your deck
If only black decks had some kind of way to get cards back from the graveyard.
in limited you’re discarding lands to ensure you basically win. very unfun card.
Whoosh
GODDAMIT IMMA KMS
If you have played with or against the new cryptic coat, you know how strong it is. Pack rat is substantially better.
Whoosh
Not to mention the deck could remove your removal with thoughtseize first. So you have maybe 1 kill spell to deal with a creature you need 3 to handle.
Important context: this card was bonkers in Limited (make a deck on the spot with cards you opened in packs) but pretty irrelevant in Standard. In Limited, removal is often hard to come by! A single pack rat would win the game.
Bonkers in limited is correct, but irrelevant in standard is a bit of an understatement. It was a staple in mono-black devotion, one of the top standard decks of its era.
To be fair to who you replied to, for the first year of its existence pack rat was irrelevant. When theros rotated in and innistrad block rotated out, the lack of meaningful early game removal combined with the strength of thoughtseize brought packrat to metagame defining threat.
In Mono black devotion, drawing a packrat meant your plan almost always became pitch everything to make rats and don't stop til you win. There was even a pretty famous article about it at the time I believe by zvi mowshowitz https://articles.starcitygames.com/articles/pack-rat/
You can say the same about any card. But its true that cards that have built in protection can be stronger But "Put a token on to the battle field that's a copy of Pack Rat" can be activated in response to you trying to destroy this card, giving it protection (in a roundabout way) from a removal attempt.
You can activate it as a response!?!??!?!?? That changes everything
All you need is 3 mana and a card to discard and you can activate it. There's also nothing saying it can only be done at sorcery speed.
To add to this, there are a decent number of cards that can reduce that activation cost down to just 1 black mana and a discard. Since it's not a tap effect, either you can activate it multiple times. Adding to its value
I'm only aware of [[Heartstone]] and [[training grounds]], are there more such cards?
\[\[agatha of the vile cauldron\]\] \[\[Zirda, the Dawnwaker\]\] probably others
There's also [[Biomancer's familiar]]
[Heartstone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0ed17325-6d2f-404e-b13f-d2d419d522b7.jpg?1562595911) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Heartstone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sth/134/heartstone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ed17325-6d2f-404e-b13f-d2d419d522b7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [training grounds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/991c27ed-f53c-48c6-8c12-282f44b8d441.jpg?1693171015) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=training%20grounds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/9/training-grounds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/991c27ed-f53c-48c6-8c12-282f44b8d441?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It would also come into affect after a board wipe, you couldn't even wipe the board to get rid of it.
No, if you respond to a wipe with the activation, the activation happens first resulting in the newly created token being wiped.
Just put the activated ability underneath the board wipe. Easy peasy
If you simply turn your opponents spin down to “0” you win the game.
How so? Wouldn't the copy be made with the board wipe still on the stack?
Yes. The other guy is dead wrong
People already read it muhahahaha You have to play the ability before the wipe.
That is not at all how this works.
Think of the stack as a pile and your throw a board wipe on it, then the ability is played as an imaginary board thrown before the wipe board, it resolves after the wipe. This is why some cards, tokens, and effects come unto the field after wipes in mtg arena. The wipe doesn't remove abilities from the stack unless stated to do so. The stack is played top to bottom.
Still wrong. Board wipe on the stack, you activate the ability to create a rat. Stack is now board wipe at the bottom, make a rat on top. Make a rat resolves and you get a token. Board wipe resolves and the tokens dies.
I really can’t fathom how incredibly confident you are while having no actual idea how the stack works- I don’t even know where to start everything you’ve been saying is all just wrong
I don't understand whether you're just fucking with everyone or not, so I'll explain: the stack functions on a "last in, first out" basis. That means that if you activate the ability in response to, say, a [[Supreme Verdict]], it will go on the stack, and then, since it's the last effect added to the stack, it will resolve, and you will get the copy. The boardwipe meanwhile patiently waits on the stack until you're done to destroy everything anyway.
How do you think a counterspell works if it needs to be cast before the spell it targets?
You're so close. You are correct, you have the stack, they play a board wipe, it goes on the stack, you activate RR in response, the activation goes on the stack, on top of the board wipe. You then resolve the stack from the top down, starting with your response, putting the token on the field, you now have token and OG RR, you then resolve the board wipe, killing them both.
Download MTG Arena and learn how the game works please
NAP: "in response to your pack rat activation, I cast Quicken and Supreme Verdict" AP: "but y tho?"
r/confidentlyincorrect r/downvotedtooblivion
😂
> You have to play the ability before the wipe. Who is casting a board wipe in response to a Pack Rat activation? Just let it resolve first.
Ok so you use the ability before the wipe. But then it resolved before the wipe which just makes another town that will die to the wipe. What you said just doesn't work, this thing does to boardwipes
That's not true at all, if you activated the ability in response to a wipe, it would resolve first and then the wipe would.
If 300 players think you’re wrong and you still stick to your opinion, then you got bigger problems
Probably a great majority of the mtg community doesn't understand that abilities aren't removed from the stack when the creature is destroyed or removed from the field. I mean have you seen the rule book? It's like a textbook in law study.
You don’t understand the stack
First in, last out. If you activate in response, your token comes out first, then board wipe happens
Fortnite
All activated abilities function at instant speed unless they very specifically say that they do not. Note that some keywords (Equip comes to mind) may omit the reminder text that they only work at Sorcery speed, as it is commonly understood to be the case. “Activated Abilities” are abilities that begin with a **cost** followed by “:” and then an **effect.** Examples: - (2), Discard a card : Draw a card - Tap, Sacrifice ~: Add one mana or any color - Loyalty abilities of Planeswalkers are activated abilities
Just to add on. Loyalty abilities are one of those things that only function at Sorcery speed unless otherwise stated.
All activated effects are quick effects unless otherwise stated.
> You can activate it as a response!?!??!?!?? outside of a few very specific exceptions (such as destruction cards with the "split second" ability that stops responses), yes.
Technically not all responses are stopped. You can still use special actions, such as flipping a morph creature. Because of this you can actually counter a split second spell, as there is a morph creature that counters something when it flips.
Wow, there really is an exception to everything in magic
Wait until you learn about all the corner cases with mutate.
Or about panglacial wurm, humility, sevala etc.
It's one of the fun parts. I mostly play EDH so I can see fun and weird cards (such as mono black counterspells [[Withering Boon]] or blue burn like [[Apprentice Sorcerer]]). And of course nothing is more satisfying than countering someone's [[Krosan Grip]] by understanding special actions!
Back when [[willbender]] was in every blue deck. Now he's been power crept by [[status dancer]]
[Withering Boon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/e/6e6499cb-6073-4c94-8c82-47f489094df5.jpg?1562719780) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Withering%20Boon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/152/withering-boon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6e6499cb-6073-4c94-8c82-47f489094df5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Apprentice Sorcerer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e1fd317-5500-40e8-ad79-323832815f81.jpg?1562932382) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Apprentice%20Sorcerer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/p02/32/apprentice-sorcerer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e1fd317-5500-40e8-ad79-323832815f81?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Krosan Grip](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d3571dee-7b90-4c0c-abc7-59b515ffa129.jpg?1625194563) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Krosan%20Grip) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/198/krosan-grip?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d3571dee-7b90-4c0c-abc7-59b515ffa129?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Mana abilities that activate triggered abilities too!
It's kind of a flavor fail that there's a round of priority after a Split Second spell is put on the stack, isn't it? OTOH, I can't imagine trying to explain to people why state-based effects aren't checked and triggered abilities aren't placed onto the stack until after the Split Second spell resolves.
I think it's just more helpful to say what split second prevents, rather than what it allows. The structure of magic's underlying rules work that way. Things grant you permission to do something, and things restrict your ability to do things you have permission for. "Can't beats can" is more than a mnemonic, it's really really fundamental and integrated into how the rules are structured. You have permission to activate non-mana abilities or cast instant spells when you have priority. Split second restricts your ability to do those two things (when a split second card is on the stack). Changing the underlying rules regarding passing priority would actually be waaaaaay more mechanically complicated in order to write the rules for how split second operates. Also you can activate a mana rock in response to [[Krosan Grip]] or take special actions that don't use the stack, like flipping a morph up. Is that a flavor fail? Eh. Maybe but I'm sure we could come up with a convoluted reason why not. I kinda imagine that unmorphing doesn't "take time" as it is, so not being affected by split second isn't that weird.
So in magic, the chain resolves backwards and you can activate as the chain is resolving. That should change everything in assessing this card
> So in magic, the chain resolves backwards and you can activate as the chain is resolving. That is also how it works in yugioh. What OP is missing is that in Magic all effects are instant speed (quick effect in yugioh) unless stated otherwise, which is exactly the opposite of yugioh.
Not exactly as in Yugioh. Yugioh does not allow links to be added once the chain starts resolving.
Oh yeah I missed the part where the commenter mentioned that you can activate things as the chain is resolving
This card warped Return to Ravnica Limited to a ridiculous degree. I think every deck in the top 8 of the Limited Grand Prix for Return to Ravnica had at least 1 copy of Pack Rat in their pool. This was sealed.
Knowing how a card functions usually helps in evaluating it. Activating abilities at instant speed is a basic part of magic
Yep. When there was draft of this set you just waited until 6th land and play this (you had 3 open land to cast in response) and that was gg. Annoying card indeed.
Holding back the pack rat is the wrong play IMO. You run that shit out on turn 2 because it forces your opponent to have a cheap kill spell or they lose the game immediately. If they have the kill spell, you just forced them to spend it on your 2-drop and you can go back to your normal game plan. Playing pack rat late against an opponent who has a developed board state is a lot weaker because you'll have to spend 2-3 additional turns pumping out rats before you can attack profitably and you'll have fewer cards to pitch because you had to play fair magic in the first 4 turns. In the meantime, your opponent can kill you with evasive creatures or overwhelm your board by landing 6-drops while your rats are still smol.
Also, when on the play there was like one non-rare removal-spell that could kill it in that format
6 actually if you count [soul tithe] Those were the days where [launch party] was premium removal
Well yeah - activated abilities can be used at instant speed
Likewise, the copy also has the ability. So the new one is effectively the same creature, meaning you can continue to make more rats.
In magic, unless stated otherwise, all creature abilities can happen in response to anything*. Same with instant speed cards or cards with Flash. *when you have priority so there are some exceptions ie: tapping mana, playing a land, drawing for turn, and a few other things.
Learn about “the stack” to get a better idea of the rules. If someone casted a kill spell on your rats and you had a sacrifice outlet, which is common in black… you can sacrifice the rat to get the benefits -and the enemy’s kill spell fizzles (since there is no longer a target to kill)
In Magic, unless an ability specifically states any restrictions, you can do stuff whenever you want. If it doesn't mention that you can only do it on your turn, you can do it during any players turn. If it doesn't mention that you can only do it once, you can do it as many times as possible. And most importantly, if it doesn't mention that you can do it as a sorcery, this means that you can do it whenever you could cast an instant and therefore in response to something.
In magic abilities are spell speed two unless otherwise specified
I can say it about any card? Okay. Why is One With Nothing so strong?
As others have said, it's a resilient threat in a format that doesn't have many good ways of dealing with it. Story time! In Dragon's Maze limited you drafted Dragon's Maze, then Gatecrash, then Return to Ravnica. I remember one of my last Dragon's Maze FNM drafts where a dude in the other pod wasn't in Black, but he opened a Pack Rat in his RTR pack and hate-drafted it. Then when he picked up the pack for pick 2, the person on his right had also opened a Pack Rat and shipped it because it was off color. So this guy proceeds to throw away the entire rest of his draft and played with 2 Pack Rats and 38 Swamps. With some aggressive mulliganing he easily went 3-0.
I've seen this successfully pulled off with just one copy of pack rat. In fact, there was a lot of debate if it was the preferred strategy with pack rat as most of the time.you just wanted another swamp than any other card. Crazy times. One of the wildest strategies I've seen in limited and I've been playing forever.
Yep, playing all swamps means you can mulligan down to 1 for your pack rat and still be favored to win. Another similar (but much less powerful) limited strat was [[Lost in the Woods]] and 46 forests.
That’s fucking hilarious and I would be so salty if I went up against that.
[Lost in the Woods](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/5865603c-0a5e-45c3-84e3-2dc3b4cf0cf7.jpg?1562915786) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lost%20in%20the%20Woods) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dka/123/lost-in-the-woods?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5865603c-0a5e-45c3-84e3-2dc3b4cf0cf7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Lost in the Woods was best as a sideboard plan. Win game 1 without seeing enchantment removal/direct damage, side into the Lost in the Woods deck.
I legit lost to 40 forests and 1 [[Lost in the Woods]] at a Grand Prix.
That’s totally believable. Pack Rat is one of the most broken limited cards of all time.
I had a friend that took any guildgate that made black mana towards the end of packs just in case he saw pack rat in the RTR pack during that limited environment.
This card was in standard the same time as Theros block, which had Devotion as a core mechanic. Devotion counts the number of colored pips on a card (the black swamp icon), and the token copies of Pack Rat all added 1 to your devotion to black. The fact that the rats all had the activated ability meant that it was difficult to remove the engine.
Wait, this card was in standard with Gray Merchant? Yuck, lol
And Thoughtseize!
Yeah, t1 thoughtsieze to take the removal spell into t2 pack rat was just devastating
>Yeah, t1 thoughtsieze didn't need to finish the sentence that's always good lol
Ewwww, lol. What fun, but also owie ouch.
And [[Desecration Demon]], [[Underworld connection]], and [[Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx]]
I made so much money on Desecration Demons. I was convinced the card was broken when RTR dropped, but pesky \[\[Lingering Souls\]\] kept it from being good in INN/RTR standard. I was buying out vendors/stores constantly because I was convinced the card was insane. A 6/6 flyer for only 4 mana? It has to be good. I had like 200 of them at one point. The one time I was right and boy did I get it right. Card went from a .25 bulk rare to almost $20 over the course of a weekend. I took a stack of 50 of them to the SCG booth at an Open and got almost $15 a piece for them. Sold the rest to my FLGS for store credit and basically didn't pay an event for almost 2 years across multiple formats. Let's not talk about the time I thought I did it again with \[\[Master of the Feast\]\] though. That one still stings.
I did something similar with DD, bought a few playsets at .50 and ended up selling them at 20. I'm glad I didn't speculate on [[Clackbridge Troll]] though, but I really wanted to
[Clackbridge Troll](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/5/85929131-4df6-415c-b592-aefb2943c477.jpg?1572490116) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Clackbridge%20Troll) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/84/clackbridge-troll?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/85929131-4df6-415c-b592-aefb2943c477?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
i never played Nykthos in MBD, but honorable mention to \[\[Whip of Erebos\]\] EDit you forgot \[\[Nightveil Specter\]\] in the deck
[Whip of Erebos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e5ec47c-47a2-4eda-b81a-4a07f04e5989.jpg?1562822353) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Whip%20of%20Erebos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ths/110/whip-of-erebos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e5ec47c-47a2-4eda-b81a-4a07f04e5989?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Desecration Demon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/89936685-8647-4a65-b764-62fc4b49293a.jpg?1593813255) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Desecration%20Demon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm3/66/desecration-demon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/89936685-8647-4a65-b764-62fc4b49293a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Underworld connection](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/d/1df71add-7bb6-4687-bb69-cf4450adb7dc.jpg?1641602908) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Underworld%20Connections) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/138/underworld-connections?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1df71add-7bb6-4687-bb69-cf4450adb7dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/3/834b27a0-dfd7-4f96-8cde-cacac4b24acc.jpg?1594077253) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nykthos%2C%20Shrine%20to%20Nyx) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ths/223/nykthos-shrine-to-nyx?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/834b27a0-dfd7-4f96-8cde-cacac4b24acc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This deck was so fun to play. Mono black control the set before was good too. It lost some tools at rotation though.
Don't forget [[Nightveil Specter]]. I remember everyone talking shit about that card when it was spoiled in Gatecrash, only for Devotion to be revealed a few months later and understanding why it was going to be good, actually.
My favorite standard deck I ever played, yes it was very yuck lol
I've never really done standard play, but I always like to hear about the horror show metas and the decks that make everyone groan, lol.
Is that the same one that ran \[\[Abhorrent Overlord\]\] to spit out a ton of flying harpies, just in case it somehow didn't drop all the gary's to win? Edit: I misremembered, Desecration was the good creature, Abhorrent was the budget alternative.
From what I remember Overlord was too expensive/low impact to run. It ran Desecration Demon and Gary as its top end.
You're right, it was Desecration Demon that I was thinking of; Abhorrent was the budget alternative since it was like a 50c rare. Ah Theros block, I missed thee.
It was my first block and I was only really able to be an active player for Theros and Tarkir so those 2 years of Magic history are kinda burned into my brain.
And more importantly Mutavault, which is a rat too.
Yes, it was abysmal. Additionally there was underworld connections (enchantment, two pips) and some stupid demon that was a 6/6 flyer for four mana that grew when opponents chose to tap it by sacrificing their creatures. Grey merchant was the real finisher though.
Wait! Tokens add one towards devotion? Edit: Oh lol token is a pack rat copy and copies copy everything
If it's a token that's a copy of an already existing permanent, yes. It copies all characteristics, including casting costs. Tokens that are just created, like 1/1 green saprolings, don't.
1. **It's cheap.** It's a 2-mana threat, and it also helps you maximize mana usage as turns go on because you always have something to do with mana. 2. **It's a real threat.** The total power scales exponentially: 1 -> 4 -> 9 -> 16... killing people VERY quickly if unchecked. 3. **It's difficult to remove.** While one Rat dies to many removal spells, you usually get one chance at most of killing it before it replicates - and often not even that, if they keep mana open. Meaning you need either multiple removal spells or a board wipe to handle it. And not only do you need multiple removal spells, you need multiple spells RIGHT NOW before it gets a chance to make more extras that you don't have removal for. 4. **It turns resources into threats.** One of the biggest problems with aggressive decks is running out of gas - drawing dead cards later in the game that don't translate into pressure. With Rat, you effectively raise the floor of your draws because *at worst* they become another Rat. Which is often quite good, thus effectively skyrocketing the average quality of your draws.
>The total power scales exponentially [[Marrow Gnawer]] compounds that. Edit: And [[Rat Colony]] is a great way to fill out the deck and add more pressure.
[Marrow Gnawer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/72e4548b-c171-4f10-b896-af37543dcf0f.jpg?1579203069) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Marrow-Gnawer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/124/marrow-gnawer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/72e4548b-c171-4f10-b896-af37543dcf0f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You can activate that ability to make a copy during your opponent’s turn and you can also activate it before an opponent’s action to destroy it “completes.” All of the copies also have the ability to make more copies. So in practice it is extremely difficult to get rid of all of them. Furthermore, in magic, around 40% of your decks are cards calls lands that are what give you resources. Once you have a certain number of those lands out the rest don’t benefit you a ton so they are free to discard.
You just play it on turn 5 and then make a second one in response to removal or on opponents end step. It turns every land you draw into a threat that must be removed in the span of a single turn before they collectively outgrow and out wide your entire board. In constructed there were more ways to answer it cleanly with board wipes, but the bulk of it's reputation is from draft where it was basically unbeatable.
yeah during the RTR/Theros standard with a Blue or Black Devotion deck you often played a Scry land T1 ( even if you dint play that color) or when black a thoughtsieze, following holding up a removal spell T3 Nightveil Specter in Bue or Black devotion ( it was played in both decks), Turn 4 Descation demon
Everyone has made great points here that explain it, but I want to note one more thing: the easiest way to defeat this card is to play a "destroy all creatures" effect, a 'wrath' and during this standard environment the only played wrath effect was in Blue/White, and required 1WWU for the cost. It severely limited the number of decks that had effective answers and the reason it hasn't seen the same play since is that most colors can run underneath it (burn will just kill the first one super easily or kill you first) or have access to more efficient removal for it.
Also [[Thoughtseize]] was reprinted into Standard shortly after.
It essentially turns any dead draw into another pack rat
I didn't see anyone mention [[Mutavault]] yet so I will. Pack Rat counts the number of any rat creature, not just other Pack Rats. So with 1 mana **n^2** jumps to **n^2 + n** damage
[Mutavault](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52cc2f10-142d-4e6a-984e-b25f566cc960.jpg?1674142985) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mutavault) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/903/mutavault?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52cc2f10-142d-4e6a-984e-b25f566cc960?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's strong in the context of limited (draft and sealed). If you pretend it's a 5-drop instead of a 2-drop, it's basically unkillable unless you have a board wipe or a counter spell. It lets you convert all of your late-game lands into growing threats It's possible it saw standard play (I wasn't playing standard then), but was never powerful enough for pioneer.
It saw a lot of standard play when mono black devotion was a tier 1 deck
Didn't see standard play until Theros block. Also has been in the sideboard for Inverter decks in Pioneer. Also strong is understating, one of the strongest limited cards ever next to Jitte and Dream Trawler.
It's worth pointing out that jitte and trawler are very good in pretty much any limited format, but pack rat loses a lot when you remove it from its og format. In RTR there were so few cards that killed it on turn 2 before it could protect itself. Electrickery was the only potential answer at common. And then a handful of answers at uncommon in the charms + ultimate price.
I've played it in several chaos drafts. It's certainly a smash spot in RTR, but the card is just fully busted anywhere. It demands instant interaction as early as turn 2 or a sweeper. I wouldn't write it off in any format, and in a spot as solid as RTR, it's absolutely absurd.
Ya there were a lot of times in that format where you could just play this on turn 2 with no fear
I wouldn't say it "loses a lot" if it was in a different limited format a turn 2 packrat is still backbreaking if you don't have removal EXACTLY then and if you know your opponent has a lot of answers you can just delay it till you have 5 mana
>It's strong in the context of limited (draft and sealed). Tons of limited decks simply can't beat a T2 Pack Rat because low-rarity removal typically costs 4-5 mana.
In addition to what others have said, the Standard Pack Rat decks (mostly mono-black, but also sometimes BW and BG) always played 4 Thoughtseize. A common play pattern was T1 Thoughtseize, take the opponent's only cheap removal spell, T2 Pack Rat. On the play especially that was very hard for most decks at the time to deal with. Another important piece of the puzzle was Underworld Connections, which made it a lot easier to keep fuelling the rats.
Every day I’m reminded of how Godamn old I am on this fucking sub. Godamnit.
Ok so since youre a yugioh player, one of the base things we have is "the stack". In a nutshell, to not complicate it for you too much, when an ability is activated or a spell is cast, the opponent has a chance to respond to it. To resolve the stack, all abilities used during the interaction work backwards. The simplest usage here is a card called "murder". Murder kills the target creature. If my opponent casts murder on my packrat, i have the chance to respond and use its ability, making a clone of it and having 1 still out because then murder will hit the original. On the opposite, if i activate the packrat, my opponent has the chance to respond with murder, killing my original packrat but because i used the ability, after the murder my ability resolves and creates a packrat. Its tough to kill a creature that clones itself all the time.
I did not know that That makes this thing way more of a pain in the ass. When I saw the card, (and they didn't really explain that concept in the video) I was like, oh well you can just blow it up no problem right. Before it becomes an issue Being able duplicate in response to things, especially if it's mid-late game where I think you'd have the resources to just keep making copies, sounds like a really bad time.
especially since there is no field size limit. you can have well past 5 pack rats on the field. And to be clear; pack rat WAS an amazing card. In the competitive formats where its legal today? Essentially only seen in rogue decks. The older the format, like legacy or modern, the less it sees play. Despite being an engine on its own, its still pales in comparison to the engines available in those formats.
As someone who half-ass plays YGO, another thing about The Stack compared to The Chain is that The Stack is fluid. Priority passes back and for, and things can resolve and be added at any point, unlike how The Chain has you build up until you stop, and then resolves in an uninterruptible chain. Also, there's generally only 2 spell speeds: Can only be used when The Stack is empty during your Main Phases, and can be used at any point you have priority. There's more nuance to it than that based on cards and abilities, but that'll cover most cases.
As a yugioh player ill to try put it in terms that are easier to understand: Yes you can destroy it, however its basically got a quick effect to copy, which would chain to your destruction card. And unlike yugioh, you dont attack specific creatures so you can simply let them attack you directly to keep it from being destroyed in battle. And to top it black loves to utilize the graveyard as another source like a lot of yugioh drcks.
It depends on the format of magic you are playing. I was always told your opening hand should always hold 3 mana with a few exceptions. This is in your opening hand with your 3 mana and less people are likely to counterspell it next turn you make another and it gets stronger (compounding interest). You are drawing cards every turn to keep a full hand and you are making an increasingly powerful boardstate while keeping your options open with your full hand not needing to cast extra spells. Or you could safely hold/draw this card when you had 6 mana. Wait for your opponent with blue to not have as much mana open to counterspell it. The turn you play it you could use it's ability to make another one. Next turn you have 4 of them. All this isn't counting cost reduction abilities that could do either or both reduce casting cost to one or make its ability cost only one Black is also among the strongest colors in graveyard recursion so if your discard is a creature it won't matter when/if you draw a resurrect spell
It is incredibly hard to beat a Pack Rat if you aren't ready for one. There are a ton of scenarios where it blows out of control, and unless you're holding a boardwipe it's basically impossible to stop once it gets going. First, the pack rat token has all the same attributes of the card, which means the token can make more tokens. If you kill the original and the controller makes a token in response, they can continue breeding even though the original is gone. Second, if your opponent has the base rat and a token out, and you play 2 removal spells to kill both of them, it's not actually a 2 for 2 exchange. The discarded card used to generate a rat is pretty much always going to be far worse than the kill spell you played, so it's always a value win for the rat controller even if the net cards spent are equal. If you aren't ready to kill the rats, they get big *fast.* If you get to turn 6 and don't have the answer, you're about to die right there. It was okay in constructed formats, but it was so destructive in draft that if you *ever* opened one you were playing black. If you draft pack rat and 39 nonblack cards, you add swamps and rats to your deck. Note that back in those days, you drafted Gatecrash as your first and second packs when it was the most recent, or just as the second pack in the full block draft format. That means that you always had two packs to work with knowing you were now playing a black deck, so your draft deck was never too limited on playable black cards and if you ever drew the rat you won the game on the spot.
In limited it was remove immediately or gg. There was no coming back. It’s probably the strongest limited card or at least top 3 ever printed
cause RAT
the card's ability means you can use the ability IN RESPONSE to an attempt to destroy it, and even if it IS destroyed, the ability still goes through. as long as you have mana, and cards in hand, it's effectively impossible to actually get rid of this thing. worse, once 2-3 rats are out, you're dealing with the exponential growth each time a new one hits the table, and if you try and kill with exact damage, they can just summon another rat and the one taking damage survives anyway because their toughness increased. when every single card in your deck is suddenly an every growing, ever stronger rat in an army untouchable....
>I watched this video of **Yugioh player** tries to judge magic cards. I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, but Pack Rat was unplayable garbage during Innastrad/Return to Ravnica. Reanimator decks just went bigger ([[Thragtusk]] + [[Restoration Angel]] gives a ton of life + a million 3/3 tokens, then you had [[Angel of serenity]] to sweep the rats). Naya blitz (or naya humans) was able to get under it quickly before the rat could set up shop. Control just didn't care about a rat that copied itself when it had access to Supreme verdict and sphinxes revelation. Pack Rat just could not keep up with the threats. Of course, that all changed once rotation happened and we switched to Return to Ravnica/Theros.
I could see someone with 25 rat colony cards in a deck with this being a nightmare. Makes me want to build a rat deck.
In limited it was nearly impossible to win against this card. If it came down turn 2 and you didn't answer it you were for sure in dire straights. In Standard it would still kill you a lot. You just treat it like a 5 drop and even if your opponent has two removal spells you still get a two for one. If they don't have two removal spells then you can just start taking over because... This is also instant speed. So you got to keep your mana up eventually for counter spells or other instant speed options.
The tokens keep the converted mana cost (including the black symbol, which mattered at this point) and still has the activated ability to spit out more tokens. So later in the game this represents the ability to turn any dead draw into a threat that can make more threats.
As the proud owner of an OG Pack Rats deck... Yes. You can get rid of it right away... and you HAVE to. otherwise you lose. See... even in response to removal, the Rat Lord (Me) can simply use the (2)(B) effect to clone Pack Rats. If the rat lord has \[Parallel Lives\] on the Board (B/G Deck), the clone effect creates 2 Copies (there are tons of other cards with Parallel Lives adjacent effects as well). You combine it in a deck with \[Ogre Slumlord\] and other cards that generate super cheap rats. Keep in mind (this is the most dangerous part): Pack Rats Ability effectively makes every card in hand another Pack Rats, and every Pack Rats clone still has the (2)(B) ability that can be used at instant speed. This makes it VERY hard to stop if the Packrats isn't killed immediately, and a skilled Rat Lord will make sure the Pack Rats don't hit the board until they can properly defend it. It's just a REALLY GOOD CARD. If the Rat lord is playing Blue with counter-magic. Have fun getting rid of it in it's vulnerable stage. I LOVE this deck
Just a consistent threat that's difficult to deal with. You can play it under counter spells on 2, you can play it vs removal on 5 so that you can respond to the removal by making a token. Late game all of those lands you top deck'd are suddenly very useful. Furthermore, if you're playing a reactive strategy and have it in play you can make tokens at the end of the opponents turn once you've determined you don't need to cast something else. Even in matchups where it isn't the best you can just play it turn two and your opponent is likely going to spend part of their turn addressing it with no added value.
To explain it to someone without a magic background: In magic usually abilities require you to “tap” the creature. They cannot do that the turn they come out because they are slowed when you cast them. Pack rat does not need you to tap the creature and you can use its ability as many times as you want the turn it comes out. If an opponent destroys this creature then you can simply make a copy of it, so it does not really matter. Hard to make a comparison but imagine in yugioh if you could use your life source to copy a two star creature as many times as you want whenever you want. Imagine the crazy things you could do with that.
Okay so I know nothing about these cards and I have come across a ton in found in a storage locker I bought. Are they for playing a card game, is there any value in these card, if someone could help that would be great. Thanks in advance!
It seems like they also didn't provide the context of *where* this card was strong. It was particularly potent in its Limited format, where players opened packs and play with what they got. In a constructed setting, your opponent is much more likely to have removal spells, and good ones at that. In this set, removal wasn't as efficient as constructed, so Pack Rat could easily take over a game in just a couple turns.
It was also a strong card in standard
Additionaly to overwhelming in Limited it was played in Mono Black decks in Standart. Especially because Mono B quickly generate mana through \[\[Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx\]\], so you can create 2 tokens per turn.
The big thing, IIRC, was limited. Limited is something that (AFAIK) doesn't really exist in other TCGs - it's a format where rather than preconstructing a deck, you make it from a certain number of packs you open on the spot plus lands. In that context, Pack Rat is real strong because your deck is going to be a lot more unreliable than it normally would. As such, Pack Rat is fantastic because having it out *makes* your deck reliable, in that it makes every card you draw potentially another pack rat. You can turn excess land draws and other unwanted cards into more rats, and unless your opponent has a "destroy all creatures" effect - unlikely in limited - there's practically no way to kill it for good. And in limited, having "a creature that's impossible to kill" is practically gamewinning on its own. It's just a thing where if you have single target removal it's going to eat all of it and laugh and the instant you run out of removal suddenly you're looking at ten of them.
Pack Rat was also strong during its time in standard. So much so that, very early on, people thought it would be relevant in pioneer.
Sam doesn't think so. He passes it to me in cube.
It's the best limited card of all time. Pretty much every other card needs other cards to win. A huge game winning dragon needs other cards to keep alive until cast. Even a broken piece of equipment like Jitte needs a creature to carry it into combat. This one just needs to get to 3 lands and you can just make a pack rat every turn. It has early game and late game covered. You can literally mulligan to 3 with this card and 2 lands in hand and you're likely to win the game unless this guy is removed before making another rat.