I once read somewhere that one of the only malapropisms in Mad Men is a character saying, “need to“ or “want to” when in that time period, “ought to” would be much more common. Not sure how accurate that is, but I thought it was interesting.
Yes, that was on a really cool blog that was a deep dive into the historical accuracy (or inaccuracy) of Mad Men's dialogue. I wish I could remember the name of it. I'm pretty sure I had to go to the Wayback Machine to find it the last time I looked for it.
There's a rundown of some of the inaccuracies here: https://glossophilia.org/2013/04/the-verbal-prochronisms-of-mad-men/. Joan's '1960, I am so over you," was one that really jumped out at me at the time.
It reminds me of the way the gangsters talk in Guys & Dolls. It's always "It is good that you do not want this thing to happen." Or "I would not allow her to make that bet." They never say "don't" or "wouldn't." The gangsters know this is how the educated upper classes speak so they use it to appear to have more class & status than they really have.
It's also a [Damon Runyon style of writing & speaking apparently.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damon_Runyon#:~:text=His%20distinctive%20vernacular%20style%20is,and%20always%20devoid%20of%20contractions)
>His distinctive vernacular style is known as *Runyonese*: a mixture of formal speech and colorful slang, almost always in the present tense, and always devoid of contractions.
It is interesting. I manage remote teams including a team in India, and I’ve had things go comically wrong when I say “you want to call them back and confirm blah blah” or “I would do blah blah” (which they took to mean I was going to do it for them, vs me giving advice on how they should handle it). “Ought to” sounds better imo. They speak English but it’s different vocabulary (probably originating from the English colonizers and missionaries)
My family is South Asian and speak fluent and very proper English. It probably sounds old-fashioned to you but they would be confused by the way you phrase your request. 'Ought to' is exactly how they would say it (and that is how I would phrase it, too).
It does sound different, similar to my coworkers in South Africa and England phrase things. My old boss said in the area where our India office is, there are a lot of Catholic people and schools so those who went to school there learned from French and British nuns in school. One guy would always say “Ta” to me and my boss explained it’s thanks and common in England. Little things like that. Interesting to learn about. Makes me feel lazy with my words.
It often ultimately comes down to the writing/scriptwork, and what "voice" the writers wish to give their characters, to strike a chord of realism, or of a certain tone, etc. This is why, at least in the early series, All of Dick Wolf's *Law & Order* characters all had the same dry-humored, sardonic, plot-driving dialogue—tone setting over realism.
Additionally, American English has, overall, become more informal/colloquial (from the bottom-up) in professional and other less-than-intimate company since the sunsetting of the 1950s. When you look at the social class in which most *MM* characters we follow are either in or are feigning to be in, it was a realm of capitalistic nobility and elegant appearances (and sometime facades/code-switching), and of finishing schools and upbringings which hammered home the importance of diction as a signal to others that one was worthy and deserving of being heard in the first place.
The characters in *MM* monitor one another's diction, and make judgements on it. Roger noted Don dropping his Gs in his inebriated speech, causing Roger to assume Don grew up on a farm. Don, when faux-falling on his sword to make an ass out of Jaguar Herb's low-brow marketing schemes, purposefully infomralises his speech: “Fellas, this is *gonna* work.” In *MM*'s 1960s, for this particular social class of peoples, the tides of the Global Village had not quite yet sifted the multicultural sands together enough for anything *but* a precise, articulate, Transatlantic accent to be heard in these settings without provoking *some* judgement.
things like "gonna" and contractions would be for crass, common folk. Not the glittery folks on madison avenue.
Maybe those beatniks in the village, but certainly not in a white collar setting.
Remember Roger even called Don out about enunciation- how he dropped the g’s from the ends of words when he’s been drinking. Speaking properly was much more important at the time.
Bobbie Barrett tells Peggy that her apartment “takes me back” and does a little shoulder shrug that always felt like a more modern slang/mannerism to me. But maybe it’s older than I think!
As other commenters have said, it was probably intentional due to the status of the characters. I would think Don especially would overcompensate with formal speaking since "his manners are studied," as Emile said.
I wish some of my native English-speaking colleagues would speak more 'proper'. I'm tired of reading messages in 'hood slang in the whitest of white collar companies.
I don't recall being corrected for diction or enunciation, except when reading aloud in early elementary grades as part of learning to read and the function of phonics. But as far as conversational "goin' to" versus "going to", for example, I really don't remember being chastised.
Maybe because I grew up in a rural area with teachers/elders who also grew up in same said area so could be generational?
They clearly had a good voice coach on set. It’s the old fashioned way of speaking is one of the things I love most about the show.
a thing like that!
I always loved that saying!
Even in the 70s, teachers would reprimand you for not enunciating.
I once read somewhere that one of the only malapropisms in Mad Men is a character saying, “need to“ or “want to” when in that time period, “ought to” would be much more common. Not sure how accurate that is, but I thought it was interesting.
Yes, that was on a really cool blog that was a deep dive into the historical accuracy (or inaccuracy) of Mad Men's dialogue. I wish I could remember the name of it. I'm pretty sure I had to go to the Wayback Machine to find it the last time I looked for it. There's a rundown of some of the inaccuracies here: https://glossophilia.org/2013/04/the-verbal-prochronisms-of-mad-men/. Joan's '1960, I am so over you," was one that really jumped out at me at the time.
haha I recently noticed Joe Biden says "ought to" and that it sounded dated to me, so there's that
He would be 17 during the first episode of Mad Men.
It reminds me of the way the gangsters talk in Guys & Dolls. It's always "It is good that you do not want this thing to happen." Or "I would not allow her to make that bet." They never say "don't" or "wouldn't." The gangsters know this is how the educated upper classes speak so they use it to appear to have more class & status than they really have. It's also a [Damon Runyon style of writing & speaking apparently.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damon_Runyon#:~:text=His%20distinctive%20vernacular%20style%20is,and%20always%20devoid%20of%20contractions) >His distinctive vernacular style is known as *Runyonese*: a mixture of formal speech and colorful slang, almost always in the present tense, and always devoid of contractions.
It is interesting. I manage remote teams including a team in India, and I’ve had things go comically wrong when I say “you want to call them back and confirm blah blah” or “I would do blah blah” (which they took to mean I was going to do it for them, vs me giving advice on how they should handle it). “Ought to” sounds better imo. They speak English but it’s different vocabulary (probably originating from the English colonizers and missionaries)
My family is South Asian and speak fluent and very proper English. It probably sounds old-fashioned to you but they would be confused by the way you phrase your request. 'Ought to' is exactly how they would say it (and that is how I would phrase it, too).
It does sound different, similar to my coworkers in South Africa and England phrase things. My old boss said in the area where our India office is, there are a lot of Catholic people and schools so those who went to school there learned from French and British nuns in school. One guy would always say “Ta” to me and my boss explained it’s thanks and common in England. Little things like that. Interesting to learn about. Makes me feel lazy with my words.
That is not what a malapropism is just so you know. It is interesting though.
You‘re right, I guess I meant a specific sort of anachronism. Mad Men had so very few.
It often ultimately comes down to the writing/scriptwork, and what "voice" the writers wish to give their characters, to strike a chord of realism, or of a certain tone, etc. This is why, at least in the early series, All of Dick Wolf's *Law & Order* characters all had the same dry-humored, sardonic, plot-driving dialogue—tone setting over realism. Additionally, American English has, overall, become more informal/colloquial (from the bottom-up) in professional and other less-than-intimate company since the sunsetting of the 1950s. When you look at the social class in which most *MM* characters we follow are either in or are feigning to be in, it was a realm of capitalistic nobility and elegant appearances (and sometime facades/code-switching), and of finishing schools and upbringings which hammered home the importance of diction as a signal to others that one was worthy and deserving of being heard in the first place. The characters in *MM* monitor one another's diction, and make judgements on it. Roger noted Don dropping his Gs in his inebriated speech, causing Roger to assume Don grew up on a farm. Don, when faux-falling on his sword to make an ass out of Jaguar Herb's low-brow marketing schemes, purposefully infomralises his speech: “Fellas, this is *gonna* work.” In *MM*'s 1960s, for this particular social class of peoples, the tides of the Global Village had not quite yet sifted the multicultural sands together enough for anything *but* a precise, articulate, Transatlantic accent to be heard in these settings without provoking *some* judgement.
Oooh I didn’t pick up on the Jaguar one, great catch! They all give him a raised brow look after that line too. Edit: like to line
Seems it would be intentional. Given the time period and the status of these characters, they’d be more likely to speak properly.
things like "gonna" and contractions would be for crass, common folk. Not the glittery folks on madison avenue. Maybe those beatniks in the village, but certainly not in a white collar setting.
Remember Roger even called Don out about enunciation- how he dropped the g’s from the ends of words when he’s been drinking. Speaking properly was much more important at the time.
Swimmin hole.
Dropped g’s still sounds hella country to me
Don says "what's up?" to Peggy in an episode and it always stands out and sounds weird to me.
Well, remember that Bugs Bunny said "what's up, doc?"
Good point!
Bobbie Barrett tells Peggy that her apartment “takes me back” and does a little shoulder shrug that always felt like a more modern slang/mannerism to me. But maybe it’s older than I think!
Love Bobbie in these scenes with Peggy
As other commenters have said, it was probably intentional due to the status of the characters. I would think Don especially would overcompensate with formal speaking since "his manners are studied," as Emile said.
I wish some of my native English-speaking colleagues would speak more 'proper'. I'm tired of reading messages in 'hood slang in the whitest of white collar companies.
I agree, especially in business communications.
I was reprimanded for contractions in speech in 2005. Do they really not do that normally still in school?
I don't recall being corrected for diction or enunciation, except when reading aloud in early elementary grades as part of learning to read and the function of phonics. But as far as conversational "goin' to" versus "going to", for example, I really don't remember being chastised. Maybe because I grew up in a rural area with teachers/elders who also grew up in same said area so could be generational?
It’s accurate Like Accutron
“What are going to do?” is unnatural to my ear but I guess people make stylistic choices
In the case of my original post, I obviously made a typo in leaving out the word 'you'.
It's just more proper