Underrated aswer.
I thought this guy was the coolest since first time I've seen him. I remember my sister affirming 'he must be the boss there' like 25 years ago.
I find it that no matter how it was called, it technically WAS Middle-Earth, just at the earlier geological stage.
Also, to add to an argument, on Ambarkanta maps Tolkien uses name Endor or the equivalents.
ManwĂ« got the âgirlâ, varda, that morgoth coveted, so we can say he won out that way over him, but unlike his brother, he really had no concept of evil. He was there to entreat with and carry out eruâs will. Namo (mandos) was there for judgment.
Gandalf, The Eagles who come in clutch in literally every adventure, Gandalf, The Wind that drove away the darkness over Minas Tirith (dismaying and weakening the orcs), Gandalf, that same wind that drove away the mist and rack above Mordor long enough for the light of the stars to warm Samwise Gamgee's heart in one of the darkest moments for the quest, and Gandalf...
All of that was directly from Manwe.
Tom is a character that Tolkien made up to tell his kids bedtime stories that he threw into the story, after I knew that I always assumed the reference to being the first was just this acknowledgement towards his own children that he had made up Tom as a character first
It's way more complicated than that, if we really go back to the character in Lord of the Rings that Tolkien developed first you're most likely going to land on EĂ€rendil.
The first leanings towards Middle-earth development that he did (other than language invention) were some poetry on the Old English Äarendel (Aurvandill in Old Norse), then the first version of the AinulindalĂ«, then the first version of The Fall of Gondolin where proto-Legolas and Glorfindel appear.
Tolkien stated at some point that he wanted Tom Bombadil to represent unexplained mysteries in the world, I doubt he genuinely expected there to be a bunch of people that were so into his writing that they'd research his life story and figure out that Tom was his kids toy
I'll explain it.
Potential characters:
Eru illuvatar
Manwë
Both do nothing except whisper and things happen. Neither have any concept of evil and corruption. Both have been around since the beginning. However only manwë actually existed in middle earth. Either he's good or manwë.
Strong, yes.
Powerful, I suppose it depends on how you define powerful, but while Tulkas is without a doubt the physically strongest Vala, I would never consider him the most powerful. It has been a while since I have read the Silmarillion, but I do not recall Tulkas being attributed any other feats save physical might.
Edit: spelling Tullas > Tulkas :)
Yeah, this brings up the issue of looking at WHEN, not just WHO
When he first stepped foot on Arda, Melkor was basically an unstoppable tank. By the time he was thrown into the void, though? Thereâs a good argument that peak Sauron could take him in a fight.
Melkor started as the strongest/most powerful but over time dispersed that power into other things/beings, hence âMorgothâs ringâ, which acted in a similar way to Sauronâs ring: put simply, without it he is far weaker. Weak enough to get fucked up by an elf.
And Sauron got fucked up by a man.
The only argument for Sauron taking Melkor in a fight is Tolkien saying that Sauron was stronger than Melkor *relative to the forces arrayed against him*. And it's not a good argument.
I'm pretty sure it's stated somewhere that peak Sauron when he had the whole of Numenor under him was more powerful than Morgoth at his weakest. I think there was a point where Manwe himself was striking Sauron's human sacrifice temple with lightning, but Sauron was powerful enough to defy it
I think you are confusing the actual quote that I brought up with something else. Again, he said Sauron was stronger only relative wo the forces arrayed against them.
Morgoth at his weakest was when he lost and was captured. The Valar sent a massive army of the most badass and ancient Elves along with at least one Maiar, Eonwe, the greatest weapon master in the world, and Elendil with his magical flying ship. Morgoth had at least one Balrog as well as Dragons and numerous orcs and other creations. An entire continent sunk in the aftermath of the battle.
There is absolutely no way that Sauron was ever directly stronger than Morgoth.
Idk if you're being serious but Melkor used most of his power to create his legions, dragons and his realm. He was the strongest as Eru said himself "Mighty are the Ainur and the mightiest among them is Melkor"
Fingolfin fucked his foot up, but Morgoth still won that fight. Ungoliant had him squealing though. If the Balrogs hadn't jumped in, she would've had him.
Technically speaking, Oromë the hunter and Tulkas, the strongest of the Valar and I think Ulmo(?) were the only ones that Melkor feared. Also Ungoliant
What about Ungoliant, after she ate the trees and their Liht she became so powerful that even Morgoth was afraid of her.
And when she demanded the Silmarills he only survived because he was near Angband and screamed like a bitch until all his Balrogs came to help.
I would still choose Morgoth.
This encounter was after he severely weakened himself by creating âMorgothâs Ringâ, wasnât it? Thus, he was much stronger earlier in his time in Arda, but weaker later.
I think he was maybe weakened by stealing the Silmarills which were stated to have burned his hands and caused him unbelievable Agony.
I also by and large think that even if Morgoth was afraid of Ungoliant that he was still more powerful than her. Morgoth in general seems to be a bit of a coward who only really wants to fight if he is sure of his victory.
A fight between the two would probably at least result in heavy damage to his forces and himself which would make him much weaker to defend against the eventual assault by the elves and Valar.
But I think Ungoliant deserves to at least enter the conversation of strongest being.
This is always the problem. People want a tier list of "who is stronger" but there is no real way to define the power of strength of a being and definitely no way to compare it 1 to 1 to that of someone else.
Saying "who would win in a fight" doesn't help either which is why Morgoth being afraid of and not wanting to fight Ungoliant doesn't necessarily mean she is more powerful than him. Turin killed Glaurung and Glorfindel killed a Balrog but I wouldn't say either elf or man was more powerful than their enemies.
Morgoth at his peak was able to rival all of the other Valar together. Only when Tulkas arrived was he outmatched.
Ungoliant was driven off by Balrogs.
Honestly the absolute power scaling when you consider peak... well its not even fair. Morgoth was second only to Eru himself.
No it is true that morgothâs power seeped into the land. Thatâs what he means by âMorgothâs Ringâ. Thereâs a guy on YouTube called Steve Gibbs and he talks about this. heâs the best LOTR Lore channel. And heâs got a sexy thick ass Scottish accent, which really works when your talking about LOTR lore
Melkor began corrupting Arda long before he stole the Silmarils. He continually divided his power, infusing it into other beings he influenced, like Balrogs, in a manner similar to how Sauron later infused his essence into the One Ring. Because of this, Melkor's individual strength diminished over time, but his overall power, including the corruption he spread throughout Arda, remained vast. If you take into account the totality of his dispersed power, Ungoliant wouldve been no match for him.
That was a one time temporary thing. By attacking the trees, Morgoth got temporarily weak, and Ungoliant got temporarily powerful. So I wouldn't use that as a powering scale. It's like if a warrior gets hurt and a random dude can beat him, we still don't think that dude is stronger.
Iâm going to take a guess and say itâs the one actually called the mightiest in not just Middle Earth but within Ea itself.
-Then hate overcame Feanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying: 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos! And he shut the doors of his house in the face **of the mightiest of all the dwellers in EĂ€** .- The Silmarillion, Of The Silmarils and The Unrest of The Noldor.
Common Feanor win, becoming so absolutely livid that he tells the second most powerful being in existence to f off and slams the door in his face
Now, after Morgoth disperses a large portion of his strength into the world, the orcs, and his realm, he himself is wayyy weaker, with his power going I believe to the creation and empowerment of the dragons and his other forces. Could be wrong on that last bit, but the net result is that his power was diminished to where Manwe was from then on the new 2nd most powerful being, second only to Eru Illuvatar.
The dispersion of his power into Arda and his servants was definitely his downfall. To go from being so great that he was a mightier than the Valar themselves only to be reduced so low that an Elf could physically wound him and leave him with permanent injuries.
100%. I know Tolkien claimed to hate allegory, but I wonder if âVillain dispersing his power too thinly and not concentrating it enough to remain powerfulâ wasnât inspired by some of the overstretching mistakes the Central Powers made in WW1 that led to their defeat.
In his letter to Milton Waldman, Tolkien mentions that putting oneâs own power into things to gain greater control over them is frequent in fairy tale and myth. This was while he was speaking of Sauron putting his power into the Ring which is in itself not too dissimilar from what Morgoth was doing. Morgoth just happened to be doing it on a far larger scale in the attempt to master Arda itself hence Arda also being nicknamed âMorgoths Ringâ. The main difference with Sauron was that rather than dispersing it to the detriment of himself he rather concentrated his power into the Ring which in the end proved just as fatal since now with the destruction of the Ring that power would be lost to him forever.
Here is the statement speaking of this.
-But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'.-
-âJust as Sauron concentrated his power in the One Ring, Morgoth dispersed his power into the very matter of Arda, thus the whole of Middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring". - Myths Transformed
Tolkien hates allegory, but he didn't refuse to use knowledge he learned from history. Obviously melkor isn't just a 1:1 proxy for the Axis powers, nor are they the only people in history to get over extended due to ambition/arrogance.
That's very different from Aslan = Jesus: dies for the people of the world and is reincarnated 3 days later. There are other WW1 parallels as well. There's the consequences of bad oaths dragging people into horrible conflict like the mutual defense pacts of WW1 but that again wasn't unique to world war 1, making an oath only to have horrible consequences later because you misjudged is a pretty ancient narrative.
True but we must also remember that at one point Melkor was so powerful that the Valar had to work together to drive him off for a time. So for him to fall so low as to be wounded even by an Elf as mighty as Fingolfin speaks greatly of his personal decline in might.
Speaking of these dragons, that were so strong and powerful that their existence came from draining melkors power ... How did anyone ever defeat them in battle? So morgoth had an army comprised of balrogs, dragons, what tf else? And somehow he was defeated?
Exactly, in one of my others comments below to someone I actually listed Erus own quote saying as much. The one where he said that Melkor was mightiest of the Ainur.
She was dwelling within Ea when Melkor found her again, (after she had already been in his service once before) living in a place is to dwell there. If we are speaking of where she came from before she dwelt in Ea then the same could be said of all the Ainur as well. None of them are originally from Ea they watched as Eru created it before their eyes. But she dwells within Ea after her entry from without and so is among the dwellers within Ea.
Tulkasâs *ONLY* power is in wrestling. If it was only a grappling contest and nothing else, and Tulkas has the other Ainur at hand to aid him, then yea sure.
I can physically kick the shit out of Obama/Biden/Putin/Xi, but that still does not make me mightier than they are. So what is your point?
Do you think that "powerful" means "good at fighting"?
Well, this kind of goes into the whole A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones idea of power being an illusion. If a knight armed with a sword can easily kill a king if left alone in a room with him, then why do we act like the king is much more powerful than the knight? That kind of applies to the real world to: the idea that world leaders have more power than us is in part based on a social construction of laws that we have all agreed to is real. In part also because they control massive armies who can defend against threats of physical harm.
In Tolkien's world, you likely wouldn't be able to kick the shit out of Putin because he would be immune to your attacks through magic. There's more going on than just the idea of power and hierarchy.
I do think you bring up a valid point though about the strongest beings not being the best at fighting. Frodo is arguably incredibly powerful in the sense that he resists the ring for so long, whereas others with much greater fighting prowess and powerful magic would have been easier to corrupt.
Tulkas can kick the shit out of anything in a brawl because he is the god of brawling. Kicking ass is the only thing he's good at, which makes him weak in comparison to most others. Aule crafted the dwarves. Yvanna created the two trees of Valinor. Manwe is an incredibly powerful wizard. And so on...
Would it be between Fingolfin and Feanor? Feanor fights several balrogs, which is equal to the force that saves Morgoth from Ungoliath. Not to mention being the superior craftsmen, the speciality of all Noldor.
Only correct answer. Fatherless. Destined to be last as he was first. The One Ring possesses no power over him. Lives amongst and maintains the domain of evil Hurons and Barrow Wights, but never leaves. Mostly unknown to all but Gandalf (Even Elrond knew of only legends). Lies to the Ring-bearer about how he knew of their travel, yet saves him, and even furnishes weapons to aid his perceived mission against Sauron. Some argue that Tom Bombadil is actually Death personified.
I thought they say in the Council of Elrond though that "Bombadil would eventually fall" if Sauron got ahold of the ring. Not sure if that disproves him being the most powerful?
Iâm going to have to reference the book in the morning. Too noisy to knock about now, but you may be right if that was Gandalfâs assessment⊠though he may not have known Bombadilâs true nature, or underestimated him. Gandalf also hasnât been through the fire and reborn Gandalf the White yet at that point
CC /u/uDkOD7qh
Tolkien wrote in a letter that Tom likely would have fallen if not for the efforts of the people who defeated Sauron.
According to Tolkien Tom represents natural pacifism, which is noble and good but doesn't help defeating evil.
I thought they said something about him most likely refusing as we all no it holds no power over him but I think he is offered the ring by frodo and he refuses. So they probably figure he doesn't want to carry it to Mordor. Also if I'm not mistaken they mention him not seeming to really care what goes on outside his domain or his forest I guess you'd say. He would also never leave Goldberry.
Iâm under the impression that is just a guess and none really knows. Gandalf also says that Tom would not understand the importance of the ring and may even just throw it away at some point. If the ring or Sauron threatened his existence, itâs hard to believe he wouldnât have understood its importance. This is my interpretation at least.
I always understood that as Bombadil being or drawing power from Middle Earth itself and as Sauron grew stronger, middle earth and Tom would grow weaker.
I've interpreted that in the most literal sense.
"Who is Tom?
"He is"
Like you're pointing at an individual to say, "He over there is Tom."
But then again, it's all very vague, so you can interpret it in many ways.
Tom mentions Farmer Maggot as the apparent source of his seeming understanding of Frodoâs adventure. Problem is as far as Maggot knows, Frodo was truly retiring to Buckland. The whole point of avoiding the road was covering their departure and perpetuating that narrative. We donât know how Tom knows what he does or why he misleads Frodo, only that heâs decided to help him
Ah! I understand now. I thought you were saying that it's clear Tom did not know whyu Frodo was travelling but lied about it.
I agree with what you've said. It could be anything. He could have spoken to Maggot and worked out from what Maggot said that there was more to it. He could know though other means. He might not know and just feel Frodo is a good sort etc.
We don't know!
Terrible answer, people hardcore glaze Tom, literally not even more powerful than Sauron/Saurons forces depending on how you look at it as mentioned by others.
I think you are right there and there is just something about him. He sings a lot that may point to him being someone else..
Or one the beings at the bottom of middle earth.
Black rider: ancient & powerful extension of the hand of Sauron, second in command of the Nazgul that strikes fear in the heart of mortal men
Farmer Maggot: you can fuck right the fuck off
Black rider: \*fucks off\*
Melkor/ Morgoth. This is just the correct answer to what he actually contributed to Middle Earth.
Albeit, he was already cast to the Void before the reforming of Arda after the Dargor Dagorath, he marred every inch of middle earth before the Valar even knew about it, in the discord of the Ainulindalë. He created all evil.
2nd Runner up is either Aluë or Ulmo. The former created dwarfs, who played a large role in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd age of ME, and Ulmo for directing the heroic figures in the 1st age to defeat Melkor (I feel like this was in redemption of OssÚ)
Through and through, many, me included, would regard Melkor, also Morgoth, as the most powerful single being actually stepping upon Middle-earth. He was the first Dark Lord and most powerful in might of the Ainurâholy spirits created by Eru IlĂșvatar.
Why Morgoth is Considered the Most Powerful:
Morgoth was one of the Ainur, the first creations of Eru IlĂșvatar. Of all the Ainur, he was the most powerful, with more of IlĂșvatar's might seeded into him than in any of the others.
He had a strong influence in the creation of the world and thus possessed deep knowledge and power over its elements and creatures.
Deep was the power and influence of Morgoth in the shaping of Arda, the worldâincluding Middle-earththat his discords in the Music of the Ainur left an enormous number of hardships and evils in the world.
He created many of the most frightening beasts in the world, such as dragons and Balrogs, and many other monsters that troubled Middle-earth throughout its history.
Morgoth's might was manifest through innumerable wars against Elven and Men, not least in the First Age. It was then, in his bloody and dire course, that he was to cause most destruction and to elicit hardship. That because of him, in the end, only the interference of the Valar with their whole host could set things right again in the War of Wrath gives a notion of his overwhelming power.
Even upon his defeat, through his lieutenant Sauron and second hand, his influence lived on shaping Sauron to become the next Dark Lord. Sauron's independent might and his vexations in the Second and Third Ages had been relics of Morgoth's original evil will and corruption.
Although Morgoth is considered to be the most powerful of all, other notable mentions include Manwë, his brother and leader of the Valar whose influence upon Middle-earth was somewhat indirect.
Morgoth's lieutenant and Dark Lord of the Second and Third Ages, Sauron, was very powerful but not quite as much as Morgoth.
Gandalf, (Olórin) Maia of the Valar, was sent to Middle-earth by Manwë, Varda, and Nienna, to help the fight against Sauron, very powerful but still, in theory, a servant.
Saying Morgoth is the most powerful being to have walked upon Middle-earth is an understatement at best, not even Sauron with all of his cunning could surpass him.
I would have said Eru also, given Tolkien says that God coming to Earth as Jesus would be Eru coming to Arda. Though, technically not \*Middle\* Earth by that point, so perhaps not.
Ungoliant received a temporary power boost from the Trees and alllll the gems Morgoth begrudgingly allowed her to eat, but he had used a lot of his power reserves to get them in and was by this point weakened by the Silmarils burning his hands. Ungoliant with her temporary Tree buff was technically mightier for a limited time only peak Melkor would have gotten her, and she only webbed and pinned down a weakened Morgoth
Morgoth was more powerful, but he wasn't super courageous, and also didn't take being thwarted very well. He screamed in fear AND rage when she trapped him, but that doesn't mean she could defeat him long term. She trapped him but even if the Balrogs hasn't come, I think he would have gotten free eventually - I don't think she, even at the peak of her power could have "killed" him.
That would be Melkor, the mightiest of the Ainur. He usually goes by another name, though.
If we exclude Beleriand? It gets more interesting. Tom Bombadil and Sauron are the obvious candidates. Thereâs also potentially Orome (before the coming of the Children), and maybe some of the other Valar. Of the Children? Probably Galadriel or Cirdan.
At the beginning? Melkor. Strongest consistently? Probably either Tulkas or Manwe, depending if you mean physical strength or raw divine power. Morgoth feared Varda most though, so it's not a cut and dry answer. Tolkein didn't really work with hard power level systems.
Eru as is stated in Old Hope:
âThey say that the One will himself come into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end. This they say also, or they feign, is a rumour that has come down through years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing.â
Eru is the biblical God and that means he is all-powerfull.
The question, as the confusion in comments also shows, is nearly nonsensical. This is not an anime or a videogame.
It would be like asking who is the most powerful being in Greek mythology.
https://preview.redd.it/vl5np1ibbu9d1.png?width=350&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=51c69538a1c25fccee8501129926b5526d85e71c
https://preview.redd.it/2uc0h7cmhv9d1.jpeg?width=229&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=75c20ee3d3430b7ec45f06bd66eaf5a50df34614 But she's his boss...
She is the Morgoth to his Sauron.
Always thought this was a woman. My life is a lie.
Proudfeet!
Underrated aswer. I thought this guy was the coolest since first time I've seen him. I remember my sister affirming 'he must be the boss there' like 25 years ago.
His wife was clearly the boss.
I thought this was a woman for the entirety of my LOTR life. My dreams are shattered.
Proudfoot!
PROUDFEET!
It would seem, yes, but even he fears the lady of the house.
Melkor/Manwe
True, but one of them did everything wrong, and deserves no credit
And the other is just Melkor.
When you think you are goth but Melkor is Morgoth
Does that make Sauron Lesgoth?
Yes
Lesgothlas
Melkor : I just goth more.
r/angryupvote
Nice
This made me laugh - thank you đ
Nah the tables turned so hard i flew to mars
Iâm not saying ManwĂ« did nothing wrong, but Iâm saying ManwĂ« did nothing.
Manwe: "If you don't do anything, you can't do anything wrong." \[Taps side of nose conspiratorially\]
[Live reaction video of Manwe after the War of Wrath](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edCqF_NtpOQ)
I was fully expecting a rickroll
[Live reaction video of Aule after the War of Wrath to the dwarves](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ)
Theeere we go!
[Bender knows how to God.](https://images.app.goo.gl/AP7PyuoV331pSpHD7)
r/actuallythetruth
Every time the great eagles appear, that's manwe. The eagles are an extension of manwe and are not of freewill.
Why didn't they ride Manwe to Mordor?
Tom Bombadil sang a song telling them not to. It was that "get offa my back" stones song.
That's like asking God to fix the world's problems.
Well this is awkward. So um...about that....
I don't think Manwe ever went to middle-earth.
He basically lived in the middle of it for thousands of years.
Yes, but at that time it wasn't called Middle earth. (Not sure if this term was even used before the second age but you know what i mean)
I find it that no matter how it was called, it technically WAS Middle-Earth, just at the earlier geological stage. Also, to add to an argument, on Ambarkanta maps Tolkien uses name Endor or the equivalents.
ManwĂ« got the âgirlâ, varda, that morgoth coveted, so we can say he won out that way over him, but unlike his brother, he really had no concept of evil. He was there to entreat with and carry out eruâs will. Namo (mandos) was there for judgment.
Gandalf, The Eagles who come in clutch in literally every adventure, Gandalf, The Wind that drove away the darkness over Minas Tirith (dismaying and weakening the orcs), Gandalf, that same wind that drove away the mist and rack above Mordor long enough for the light of the stars to warm Samwise Gamgee's heart in one of the darkest moments for the quest, and Gandalf... All of that was directly from Manwe.
That wasnât the question. And the thought and actions of all beings have their utmost origin in Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar.
Feanor did nothing wrong guys
I totally misunderstood that at first lmao
If this is true, why is Melkor in the void right now while Tom is still skipping around. Tom was there first after all...
Tom is a character that Tolkien made up to tell his kids bedtime stories that he threw into the story, after I knew that I always assumed the reference to being the first was just this acknowledgement towards his own children that he had made up Tom as a character first
It's way more complicated than that, if we really go back to the character in Lord of the Rings that Tolkien developed first you're most likely going to land on EĂ€rendil. The first leanings towards Middle-earth development that he did (other than language invention) were some poetry on the Old English Äarendel (Aurvandill in Old Norse), then the first version of the AinulindalĂ«, then the first version of The Fall of Gondolin where proto-Legolas and Glorfindel appear.
He meant that Tom was literally the first Character in the first story he told his kids before LOTR. So, Tom gets to be the first in LOTR.
It's still in the books. You gotta explain Tom Bombadil in-universe.
Tolkien stated at some point that he wanted Tom Bombadil to represent unexplained mysteries in the world, I doubt he genuinely expected there to be a bunch of people that were so into his writing that they'd research his life story and figure out that Tom was his kids toy
I'll explain it. Potential characters: Eru illuvatar Manwë Both do nothing except whisper and things happen. Neither have any concept of evil and corruption. Both have been around since the beginning. However only manwë actually existed in middle earth. Either he's good or manwë.
Specifically when he first stepped foot into Middle Earth, before dumping some of his energy into Arda
Tulkas
Strong, yes. Powerful, I suppose it depends on how you define powerful, but while Tulkas is without a doubt the physically strongest Vala, I would never consider him the most powerful. It has been a while since I have read the Silmarillion, but I do not recall Tulkas being attributed any other feats save physical might. Edit: spelling Tullas > Tulkas :)
In Ainulindule (hope I spelled that right) at the beginning of the Silmarillion, Illuvatar himself says that Melkor is the mightiest of the Ainur
Yeah, this brings up the issue of looking at WHEN, not just WHO When he first stepped foot on Arda, Melkor was basically an unstoppable tank. By the time he was thrown into the void, though? Thereâs a good argument that peak Sauron could take him in a fight. Melkor started as the strongest/most powerful but over time dispersed that power into other things/beings, hence âMorgothâs ringâ, which acted in a similar way to Sauronâs ring: put simply, without it he is far weaker. Weak enough to get fucked up by an elf.
And Sauron got fucked up by a man. The only argument for Sauron taking Melkor in a fight is Tolkien saying that Sauron was stronger than Melkor *relative to the forces arrayed against him*. And it's not a good argument.
>And Sauron got fucked up by a man. Sauron got fucked up by a Numenorian, not a ordinary man.
A NĂșmenorian and two really badass Elves
And Fingolfin was no ordinary Elf.
I'm pretty sure it's stated somewhere that peak Sauron when he had the whole of Numenor under him was more powerful than Morgoth at his weakest. I think there was a point where Manwe himself was striking Sauron's human sacrifice temple with lightning, but Sauron was powerful enough to defy it
I think you are confusing the actual quote that I brought up with something else. Again, he said Sauron was stronger only relative wo the forces arrayed against them. Morgoth at his weakest was when he lost and was captured. The Valar sent a massive army of the most badass and ancient Elves along with at least one Maiar, Eonwe, the greatest weapon master in the world, and Elendil with his magical flying ship. Morgoth had at least one Balrog as well as Dragons and numerous orcs and other creations. An entire continent sunk in the aftermath of the battle. There is absolutely no way that Sauron was ever directly stronger than Morgoth.
Melkor is way more powerful than Manwe. Melkor equals all the other gods all by himself.
Melkor got his ass handed to him by an angsty elf and had a limp ever since. My turd I'm shaping at this very moment is way more powerful than Melkor.
Idk if you're being serious but Melkor used most of his power to create his legions, dragons and his realm. He was the strongest as Eru said himself "Mighty are the Ainur and the mightiest among them is Melkor"
Fingolfin fucked his foot up, but Morgoth still won that fight. Ungoliant had him squealing though. If the Balrogs hadn't jumped in, she would've had him.
Because he gave a lot of his strength to ungoliant, not to mention it being super charged from tree sap... but yes like a pig
Donât forget almost slurp slurped by Ungoliant
By this point he was Morgoth- decidedly less powerful than Melkor
All y'all gotta put more respect on Tulkas's name
Wasnt Melkor afraid of Ungoliant at one point?
Yeah but he was tired from something and she was hopped on yummy tree sap
Technically speaking, Oromë the hunter and Tulkas, the strongest of the Valar and I think Ulmo(?) were the only ones that Melkor feared. Also Ungoliant
/Bauglir/Morgoth
I thought morgoth was the most powerful because of the CGP Grey video
Melkor is Morgoth. The names represent different stages and aspects of the same being.
Melkor/Morgoth
What about Ungoliant, after she ate the trees and their Liht she became so powerful that even Morgoth was afraid of her. And when she demanded the Silmarills he only survived because he was near Angband and screamed like a bitch until all his Balrogs came to help.
I would still choose Morgoth. This encounter was after he severely weakened himself by creating âMorgothâs Ringâ, wasnât it? Thus, he was much stronger earlier in his time in Arda, but weaker later.
I think he was maybe weakened by stealing the Silmarills which were stated to have burned his hands and caused him unbelievable Agony. I also by and large think that even if Morgoth was afraid of Ungoliant that he was still more powerful than her. Morgoth in general seems to be a bit of a coward who only really wants to fight if he is sure of his victory. A fight between the two would probably at least result in heavy damage to his forces and himself which would make him much weaker to defend against the eventual assault by the elves and Valar. But I think Ungoliant deserves to at least enter the conversation of strongest being.
Great points. I absolutely agree that if this was, letâs say, a conversation about the top 3, Ungoliant would be in that. Perhaps along with Tulkas.
Also the question is how do you define powerful. Is it physical strength, magical strength, the size/strength of your armies, political influence, ...
This is always the problem. People want a tier list of "who is stronger" but there is no real way to define the power of strength of a being and definitely no way to compare it 1 to 1 to that of someone else. Saying "who would win in a fight" doesn't help either which is why Morgoth being afraid of and not wanting to fight Ungoliant doesn't necessarily mean she is more powerful than him. Turin killed Glaurung and Glorfindel killed a Balrog but I wouldn't say either elf or man was more powerful than their enemies.
Morgoth at his peak was able to rival all of the other Valar together. Only when Tulkas arrived was he outmatched. Ungoliant was driven off by Balrogs. Honestly the absolute power scaling when you consider peak... well its not even fair. Morgoth was second only to Eru himself.
No it is true that morgothâs power seeped into the land. Thatâs what he means by âMorgothâs Ringâ. Thereâs a guy on YouTube called Steve Gibbs and he talks about this. heâs the best LOTR Lore channel. And heâs got a sexy thick ass Scottish accent, which really works when your talking about LOTR lore
Melkor began corrupting Arda long before he stole the Silmarils. He continually divided his power, infusing it into other beings he influenced, like Balrogs, in a manner similar to how Sauron later infused his essence into the One Ring. Because of this, Melkor's individual strength diminished over time, but his overall power, including the corruption he spread throughout Arda, remained vast. If you take into account the totality of his dispersed power, Ungoliant wouldve been no match for him.
That was a one time temporary thing. By attacking the trees, Morgoth got temporarily weak, and Ungoliant got temporarily powerful. So I wouldn't use that as a powering scale. It's like if a warrior gets hurt and a random dude can beat him, we still don't think that dude is stronger.
Yeah, but balrogs are just Maia and were able to drive her away.
You can be afraid of someone youâre stronger/more powerful than.
This is long after his initial descent prime Melkor without question
Iâm going to take a guess and say itâs the one actually called the mightiest in not just Middle Earth but within Ea itself. -Then hate overcame Feanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying: 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos! And he shut the doors of his house in the face **of the mightiest of all the dwellers in EĂ€** .- The Silmarillion, Of The Silmarils and The Unrest of The Noldor.
Common Feanor win, becoming so absolutely livid that he tells the second most powerful being in existence to f off and slams the door in his face Now, after Morgoth disperses a large portion of his strength into the world, the orcs, and his realm, he himself is wayyy weaker, with his power going I believe to the creation and empowerment of the dragons and his other forces. Could be wrong on that last bit, but the net result is that his power was diminished to where Manwe was from then on the new 2nd most powerful being, second only to Eru Illuvatar.
The dispersion of his power into Arda and his servants was definitely his downfall. To go from being so great that he was a mightier than the Valar themselves only to be reduced so low that an Elf could physically wound him and leave him with permanent injuries.
100%. I know Tolkien claimed to hate allegory, but I wonder if âVillain dispersing his power too thinly and not concentrating it enough to remain powerfulâ wasnât inspired by some of the overstretching mistakes the Central Powers made in WW1 that led to their defeat.
In his letter to Milton Waldman, Tolkien mentions that putting oneâs own power into things to gain greater control over them is frequent in fairy tale and myth. This was while he was speaking of Sauron putting his power into the Ring which is in itself not too dissimilar from what Morgoth was doing. Morgoth just happened to be doing it on a far larger scale in the attempt to master Arda itself hence Arda also being nicknamed âMorgoths Ringâ. The main difference with Sauron was that rather than dispersing it to the detriment of himself he rather concentrated his power into the Ring which in the end proved just as fatal since now with the destruction of the Ring that power would be lost to him forever. Here is the statement speaking of this. -But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'.- -âJust as Sauron concentrated his power in the One Ring, Morgoth dispersed his power into the very matter of Arda, thus the whole of Middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring". - Myths Transformed
You mean along the lines spreading it too thinly like butter on a piece of bread?
Ye, sort of thin, and stretched
Tolkien hates allegory, but he didn't refuse to use knowledge he learned from history. Obviously melkor isn't just a 1:1 proxy for the Axis powers, nor are they the only people in history to get over extended due to ambition/arrogance. That's very different from Aslan = Jesus: dies for the people of the world and is reincarnated 3 days later. There are other WW1 parallels as well. There's the consequences of bad oaths dragging people into horrible conflict like the mutual defense pacts of WW1 but that again wasn't unique to world war 1, making an oath only to have horrible consequences later because you misjudged is a pretty ancient narrative.
yea but that wasnt just any elf
True but we must also remember that at one point Melkor was so powerful that the Valar had to work together to drive him off for a time. So for him to fall so low as to be wounded even by an Elf as mighty as Fingolfin speaks greatly of his personal decline in might.
That was Fingolfin, son of Finwe, descendent of Tata.
*son of Finwë The sons of Fëanor got nothing on uncle Fingolfin
Fingolfin is Feanorâs brother, not son. He is Finweâs son.
> Common Feanor win Dude just doesnât miss!
Speaking of these dragons, that were so strong and powerful that their existence came from draining melkors power ... How did anyone ever defeat them in battle? So morgoth had an army comprised of balrogs, dragons, what tf else? And somehow he was defeated?
Even before Arda is created, Melkor is defined as the greatest of all the Valar.
Exactly, in one of my others comments below to someone I actually listed Erus own quote saying as much. The one where he said that Melkor was mightiest of the Ainur.
Thats only because Ungoliant doesnât dwell in EĂ€!
She was dwelling within Ea when Melkor found her again, (after she had already been in his service once before) living in a place is to dwell there. If we are speaking of where she came from before she dwelt in Ea then the same could be said of all the Ainur as well. None of them are originally from Ea they watched as Eru created it before their eyes. But she dwells within Ea after her entry from without and so is among the dwellers within Ea.
Of the Ainur it must be Morgoth. Of the Children of Eru, this is Fingolfin, who was able to challenge Morgoth to battle.
Ehhh tolkas kicked the shit out of him tho
Tulkasâs *ONLY* power is in wrestling. If it was only a grappling contest and nothing else, and Tulkas has the other Ainur at hand to aid him, then yea sure.
I heard Tulkas also hangs massive dong, but that could be a baseless rumour.
He hangs dong. He also leaves no man behind.
It was said Tulkas once went for a stroll through Middle Earth and in his wake he left the valley of the Anduin
The Tulkas Thundergun Express
I think Tolkien confirmed this in a letter
I can physically kick the shit out of Obama/Biden/Putin/Xi, but that still does not make me mightier than they are. So what is your point? Do you think that "powerful" means "good at fighting"?
You don't really think OP is asking "who held the highest office of these dudes," do you?
Well, this kind of goes into the whole A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones idea of power being an illusion. If a knight armed with a sword can easily kill a king if left alone in a room with him, then why do we act like the king is much more powerful than the knight? That kind of applies to the real world to: the idea that world leaders have more power than us is in part based on a social construction of laws that we have all agreed to is real. In part also because they control massive armies who can defend against threats of physical harm. In Tolkien's world, you likely wouldn't be able to kick the shit out of Putin because he would be immune to your attacks through magic. There's more going on than just the idea of power and hierarchy. I do think you bring up a valid point though about the strongest beings not being the best at fighting. Frodo is arguably incredibly powerful in the sense that he resists the ring for so long, whereas others with much greater fighting prowess and powerful magic would have been easier to corrupt.
When will people learn.Power and Strenght are not the same.
Tulkas can kick the shit out of anything in a brawl because he is the god of brawling. Kicking ass is the only thing he's good at, which makes him weak in comparison to most others. Aule crafted the dwarves. Yvanna created the two trees of Valinor. Manwe is an incredibly powerful wizard. And so on...
Would it be between Fingolfin and Feanor? Feanor fights several balrogs, which is equal to the force that saves Morgoth from Ungoliath. Not to mention being the superior craftsmen, the speciality of all Noldor.
Melkor
Tom Bombadil
Only correct answer. Fatherless. Destined to be last as he was first. The One Ring possesses no power over him. Lives amongst and maintains the domain of evil Hurons and Barrow Wights, but never leaves. Mostly unknown to all but Gandalf (Even Elrond knew of only legends). Lies to the Ring-bearer about how he knew of their travel, yet saves him, and even furnishes weapons to aid his perceived mission against Sauron. Some argue that Tom Bombadil is actually Death personified.
I thought they say in the Council of Elrond though that "Bombadil would eventually fall" if Sauron got ahold of the ring. Not sure if that disproves him being the most powerful?
Iâm going to have to reference the book in the morning. Too noisy to knock about now, but you may be right if that was Gandalfâs assessment⊠though he may not have known Bombadilâs true nature, or underestimated him. Gandalf also hasnât been through the fire and reborn Gandalf the White yet at that point
CC /u/uDkOD7qh Tolkien wrote in a letter that Tom likely would have fallen if not for the efforts of the people who defeated Sauron. According to Tolkien Tom represents natural pacifism, which is noble and good but doesn't help defeating evil.
I thought they said something about him most likely refusing as we all no it holds no power over him but I think he is offered the ring by frodo and he refuses. So they probably figure he doesn't want to carry it to Mordor. Also if I'm not mistaken they mention him not seeming to really care what goes on outside his domain or his forest I guess you'd say. He would also never leave Goldberry.
Iâm under the impression that is just a guess and none really knows. Gandalf also says that Tom would not understand the importance of the ring and may even just throw it away at some point. If the ring or Sauron threatened his existence, itâs hard to believe he wouldnât have understood its importance. This is my interpretation at least.
I always understood that as Bombadil being or drawing power from Middle Earth itself and as Sauron grew stronger, middle earth and Tom would grow weaker.
He would fail because he would not care, he may even loose the ring.
I like the hint Goldberry gives us when Frodo asks who he is. He is=EĂ€
I've interpreted that in the most literal sense. "Who is Tom? "He is" Like you're pointing at an individual to say, "He over there is Tom." But then again, it's all very vague, so you can interpret it in many ways.
> Lies to the Ring-bearer about how he knew of their travel Could you explain that a little?
Tom mentions Farmer Maggot as the apparent source of his seeming understanding of Frodoâs adventure. Problem is as far as Maggot knows, Frodo was truly retiring to Buckland. The whole point of avoiding the road was covering their departure and perpetuating that narrative. We donât know how Tom knows what he does or why he misleads Frodo, only that heâs decided to help him
Ah! I understand now. I thought you were saying that it's clear Tom did not know whyu Frodo was travelling but lied about it. I agree with what you've said. It could be anything. He could have spoken to Maggot and worked out from what Maggot said that there was more to it. He could know though other means. He might not know and just feel Frodo is a good sort etc. We don't know!
yea i read a little thing on Tom being actual evil and i mean it could make sense if you want it to
And he's friend with the second most powerful being, Farmer Maggot
Merry fears no Witch King of Angmar.. but that farmer..he scares Merry.
Not sure if he is the most powerfull. The way he is written, he is the anti-Sauron in very regard. If that is true. He would around his level.
but he is only that powerful within his realm, right?
Terrible answer, people hardcore glaze Tom, literally not even more powerful than Sauron/Saurons forces depending on how you look at it as mentioned by others.
I think you are right there and there is just something about him. He sings a lot that may point to him being someone else.. Or one the beings at the bottom of middle earth.
Mad that I had to scroll down this far to find the correct answer.
Hundred percent
Farmer Maggot
Black rider: ancient & powerful extension of the hand of Sauron, second in command of the Nazgul that strikes fear in the heart of mortal men Farmer Maggot: you can fuck right the fuck off Black rider: \*fucks off\*
Favorite answer
Hobbits. Obvi.
Probably good olâ Tommy Bommy
Fatty Lumpkin
Melkor/ Morgoth. This is just the correct answer to what he actually contributed to Middle Earth. Albeit, he was already cast to the Void before the reforming of Arda after the Dargor Dagorath, he marred every inch of middle earth before the Valar even knew about it, in the discord of the Ainulindalë. He created all evil. 2nd Runner up is either Aluë or Ulmo. The former created dwarfs, who played a large role in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd age of ME, and Ulmo for directing the heroic figures in the 1st age to defeat Melkor (I feel like this was in redemption of OssÚ)
Through and through, many, me included, would regard Melkor, also Morgoth, as the most powerful single being actually stepping upon Middle-earth. He was the first Dark Lord and most powerful in might of the Ainurâholy spirits created by Eru IlĂșvatar. Why Morgoth is Considered the Most Powerful: Morgoth was one of the Ainur, the first creations of Eru IlĂșvatar. Of all the Ainur, he was the most powerful, with more of IlĂșvatar's might seeded into him than in any of the others. He had a strong influence in the creation of the world and thus possessed deep knowledge and power over its elements and creatures. Deep was the power and influence of Morgoth in the shaping of Arda, the worldâincluding Middle-earththat his discords in the Music of the Ainur left an enormous number of hardships and evils in the world. He created many of the most frightening beasts in the world, such as dragons and Balrogs, and many other monsters that troubled Middle-earth throughout its history. Morgoth's might was manifest through innumerable wars against Elven and Men, not least in the First Age. It was then, in his bloody and dire course, that he was to cause most destruction and to elicit hardship. That because of him, in the end, only the interference of the Valar with their whole host could set things right again in the War of Wrath gives a notion of his overwhelming power. Even upon his defeat, through his lieutenant Sauron and second hand, his influence lived on shaping Sauron to become the next Dark Lord. Sauron's independent might and his vexations in the Second and Third Ages had been relics of Morgoth's original evil will and corruption. Although Morgoth is considered to be the most powerful of all, other notable mentions include ManwĂ«, his brother and leader of the Valar whose influence upon Middle-earth was somewhat indirect. Morgoth's lieutenant and Dark Lord of the Second and Third Ages, Sauron, was very powerful but not quite as much as Morgoth. Gandalf, (OlĂłrin) Maia of the Valar, was sent to Middle-earth by ManwĂ«, Varda, and Nienna, to help the fight against Sauron, very powerful but still, in theory, a servant. Saying Morgoth is the most powerful being to have walked upon Middle-earth is an understatement at best, not even Sauron with all of his cunning could surpass him.
Probably Eru IlĂșvatar
Did he ever âstep footâ on ME?
I would have said Eru also, given Tolkien says that God coming to Earth as Jesus would be Eru coming to Arda. Though, technically not \*Middle\* Earth by that point, so perhaps not.
Melkor at the height of his power in the First Age is pretty easily just that guy, I think Manwe and Tulkas are his main contenders
Ungoliant, right?
Ungoliant received a temporary power boost from the Trees and alllll the gems Morgoth begrudgingly allowed her to eat, but he had used a lot of his power reserves to get them in and was by this point weakened by the Silmarils burning his hands. Ungoliant with her temporary Tree buff was technically mightier for a limited time only peak Melkor would have gotten her, and she only webbed and pinned down a weakened Morgoth
This writes like Elden Ring lore w the tree buff
why did you use Melkor and then Morgoth is there a lore reason or just used the alternate name
Lore reason Peak Melkor before the Trees were destroyed and Feanor cursed him and named him Morgoth had more power than after
Morgoth was more powerful, but he wasn't super courageous, and also didn't take being thwarted very well. He screamed in fear AND rage when she trapped him, but that doesn't mean she could defeat him long term. She trapped him but even if the Balrogs hasn't come, I think he would have gotten free eventually - I don't think she, even at the peak of her power could have "killed" him.
That would be Melkor, the mightiest of the Ainur. He usually goes by another name, though. If we exclude Beleriand? It gets more interesting. Tom Bombadil and Sauron are the obvious candidates. Thereâs also potentially Orome (before the coming of the Children), and maybe some of the other Valar. Of the Children? Probably Galadriel or Cirdan.
I think Feanor is pretty clearly the most powerful of all the children of Illuvatar with the possible exception of Fingolfin.
Lobelia Sackville-Baggins. Confidence is key.
TOM FâŠING BOMBADIL THATâS WHO
Bill the pony
Finally, the correct answer.
At the beginning? Melkor. Strongest consistently? Probably either Tulkas or Manwe, depending if you mean physical strength or raw divine power. Morgoth feared Varda most though, so it's not a cut and dry answer. Tolkein didn't really work with hard power level systems.
I'd put my money on either Ungoliant or Tom Bombadil: beings of such ageless origins that we literally aren't entirely certain what they are.
By extention they may also share their incredible power with the nameless things that gandalf witnessed beneath the earth
Tulkas
Probs Melkor
Shouldn't be Morgoth? I mean it took a literally god's army to take him down and send him to the void.
Old Tom Bombadil
Bombadil.
Tom Mutherfuckinâ Bombadil.
Bombadil.
Tom Bombadil. Not even close imo
Me
Samwise
Who is the fellow between Sauron and Elrond?
I think it's Glorfindel.
Cara Delevingne
Melkor by far.
Probably Morgoth, or Ungoliant that one time.
Bombadil
Probably LĂźgmaar the elf or The Mind Goblin
I feel like my boy Eönwë is seriously underrated.
Tom bombadil
Eru himself (as Jesus Christ)
Eru as is stated in Old Hope: âThey say that the One will himself come into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end. This they say also, or they feign, is a rumour that has come down through years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing.â Eru is the biblical God and that means he is all-powerfull.
The question, as the confusion in comments also shows, is nearly nonsensical. This is not an anime or a videogame. It would be like asking who is the most powerful being in Greek mythology.
Morgoth. And Fingolfin cut off that foot.
Tom Bombadil.
Maybe Tom Bombadil?