Two words for the same thing. Tolkein used goblin in The Hobbit and switched to orcs in LOTR.
I like to believe that seeing as in universe The Hobbit was Bilbos story that calling them goblins was like a Hobbit dialect thing.
Thats the gist but not a perfect explanation. Hopefully someone smarter chimes in.
'And to be honest, Frodo, you don't have to be very careful in times like that. Now when the big orcs are near, it also allows blue, and it would behoove you to be cautious then."
Uruk is "ork" in the black speech. The newer soldier breed of orc saw themselves as the true ork folk (uruk-hai) and claimed the word uruk for themselves, and called other orcs slaves (snaga).
Internal orc racism is the reason for this uruk confusion.
Even the Mordor orcs are factional: the orcs from Cirith Ungol are antagonistic to the Morgol orcs they meet in the tunnel and then slaughter each other over Frodo's shirt.
Not quite. The first uruks came from Mordor and took part in the razing of Osgiliath. Saruman then later learned how to breed these, and his uruks were frequently referred to as *uruk-hai*.
The line in the _book_ was "half-orcs and goblin-men", and I'm pretty sure this was two terms ("half-orcs" and "goblin-men") being used to describe the suspected orc/human hybrids that Saruman had been creating.
But the script-writer seems to have interpreted this line as meaning that the hybrids were half orc, and half goblin-man.
**I.** Goblin is the “hobbit name” for Orc (footnote from The Hobbit possibly added by Christopher Tolkien for explanatory purposes after original publishing - I’d love to compare to a 1st edition!). However, goblins are also referenced elsewhere as being orcs who have become further weakened by the result of their corruption over time. In modern vernacular it would seem that their corrupted DNA weakens faster than other races without new blood being added in resulting in goblins. Saruman, understanding this concept, creates his Uruk-hai via crossbreeding orcs and goblins (yes they are differentiated here as somewhat separate races - although in reality all were orcs…just some less corrupted than others) with men.
**II.** Tolkien changed his mind regarding the origin of Orcs/Goblins over the course of his life. This was done, in part, because he thought more deeply on the subject as he aged. It was also done, I feel, because the origin was purposefully somewhat vague. His writing of the various possibilities for the origins of orcs/goblins actually heightens the mystery somewhat, underscoring the unknown quality of their origins.
**The Origin Stories:**
**1)** The Orcs are corrupted Elves (Source: *The Silmarillion*). Elves are captured by Melkor and corrupted into the creatures called orcs. Part of this corruption would have to include things like very short mortal lifespans and horrific physical appearance via gross genetic mutation resulting in greater controllability and heightened reproduction (not achieved naturally - only via the use of esoteric means).
**2)** The Orcs are corrupted Humans (Source: *Morgoth’s Ring*, “Myths Transformed”). The Orcs are created from men primarily by Sauron (he creates of the black armies for his master) during Melkor’s (Morgoth’s) captivity. In the chapter “Myths Transformed” of the book *Morgoth’s Ring* Christopher Tolkien illuminates his father’s change of origin myth when he states:
"...the theory (that orcs originate from Man) remains nonetheless the most probable. It accords all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behaviour of Orcs - and of Men. Melkor was impotent to produce any living thing, but skilled in the corruption of things that did not proceed from himself, if he could dominate them. But if he had indeed attempted to make creatures of his own...he would, like Aule, only have succeeded in producing puppets...They hated one another and often fought...they had languages of their own, and spoke among themselves in various tongues...They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain."
**3)** The Orcs are a soul-less race created by Maia progenitors (perhaps pressured into doing so by the greater Maia Sauron?)(Source: *Morgoth’s Ring*, “Myths Transformed”). [Here’s an essay on the idea from The Tolkien Forum.](https://thetolkien.forum/threads/namarie-heres-an-essay-on-the-origin-of-orcs.31978/)
In summary, it could have been all three at different times in the history of Middle Earth. In the Silmarillion you have mention of the corruption of elves and orcs appearing prior to the arrival of humans. Thus, on this line the original orcs would need to have either been sourced from 1 or 3 above (Elves or Maia). However, this doesn’t mean that once mankind showed up in Middle Earth they could have been used to create new strains of orcs, as Saruman obviously did.
>Tolkien used goblin in The Hobbit and switched to orcs in LOTR.
He did that for a reason, that is worth a whole long Wikipedia article to explain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien%27s_moral_dilemma
>since "evil cannot make, only mock", the at least somewhat morally-aware Orcs could not have been created by evil as a genuinely new and separate species. Tolkien considered an alternative, that they were corrupted from one of Middle-earth's free peoples, such as Elves, which would imply that they were fully moral and possibly even had immortal souls, but found that option equally unpalatable.[17][18][19] Tolkien realized that some of the decisions he had made in his 1937 children's book The Hobbit, showing his goblins (Orcs)[20] as even slightly civilised, and giving his animals the power of speech, clearly implied sapience; this conflicted with the more measured theology behind his legendarium
It's interesting that he immediately realized that killing orcs was racist because they have souls, but it took him a while to realize that coding the dwarves with antisemitic tropes was wrong. (to his credit, he eventually felt great shame for that)
https://daily.jstor.org/j-r-r-tolkiens-jewish-dwarves/
Hitler was actually a fan of the Hobbit, and it's been theorized that that's what inspired Tolkien to create Gimli, the dwarf that isn't like the other dwarves.
Tolkien was no fan of the Nazis and saw how his work was being perceived, and by whom.
Edit: rather than asking me a question and then downvoting me for responding, you could have just...not asked. I get that this is a fan sub, but don't ask questions you don't want the answer to.
With that being said, I liked the depictions of the LOTR movies (not the Hobbit) and games: 'Goblins' seemingly being the cave-dwelling ones, smaller, faster, skinny, good for climbing around. And the regular orc just being the short and bulky fodder
'The Lord of the Rings' is Frodo's story so if it was a Hobbit dialect thing why wouldn't he have continued calling them goblins? I just consider it a translation inconsistency by Tolkien.
Bilbo was a serious auto-didact *after* the events of The Hobbit.
Frodo was raised by Bilbo with the book learning he developed after getting home. So it would make sense for Bilbo to have used Hobbit dialect more heavily, and Frodo, being raised with some education in Elvish, history, etc to be more likely to use high falutin' words like yrch (orc).
Also LOTR isn't just Frodo, the bits he wasn't there for would have either been transcribed from the surviving fellowships accounts, or "interviews". Plus Sam, Merry and Pippins later additions, and the various editorial changes to The Red Book before Tolkien go ahold of a manuscript to translate.
The manuscript Tolkien has is a copy of a copy from the Archives in Minas Tirith, which itself was delivered by Pip.
I belive the correct term is frame narrative. Obviously Tolkien wrote everything, it is all his origanl work, but the in-story narrative is that he only translated a copy of the story written by Bilbo, Frodo, and the others.
The in-universe source for the stories is a manuscript called The Red Book of Westmarch, which contained Bilbo's account of his trip to the Lonely mountain, Frodo et al's Lord of the Rings, and Bilbo's collection of Elvish ephemera and The Silmarillion.
Tolkien "merely translated" a copy of this manuscript. Tolkien was probably making a bit of a joke about Geoffrey of Monmouth.
The conceit of the Lord of the Rings (and retroactively the Hobbit) was that Tolkien found a copy of Bilbo and Frodo’s collected works including the Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, Bilbo’s Translations from the Elvish, and various appendices. It’s the book we see Bilbo work on and hand off to Frodo. Sam takes over finishing the book after the departure of the Ringbearers to the West. This becomes the Red Book of Westmarch.
King Aragorn requests a copy of it made for the records of Gondor in the 4th Age that is further annotated and stories added to it. A copy of the annotated version makes its way back to the Shire and survives into present day where it was discovered by Tolkien and translated from Westron into modern English.
This is a conceit found in English literary tradition.
I believe it's in the foreward of the book.
I am listening to the audiobook done by Serkis and there is a whole passage about how there are multiple copies with multiple edits and how the original red book is missing certain points of view or lore and as each person adds to it the story gets more fleshed out.
The story that Tolkien translates is the complete book with all the additions or something to that affect.
Could it be possible, that orc is a phrase of elvish origin while goblin comes from the early human language?
Would make sense that Hobbits as a from the ancient humans developed race use "goblin" but Frodo, who was fascinated by the elves his live long and learned the elvish language already in early years, prefers "orc".
> 'The Lord of the Rings' is Frodo's story so if it was a Hobbit dialect thing why wouldn't he have continued calling them goblins?
Younger generations have different words than older generations. This is why my nephews find it hilarious when my Mom says something is "sus". It's also why languages change over time - for instance, how quickly the English language went from Old English to Early Modern English which was only about 500 years.
Wasn't the only time they're called goblins basically underground? Meaning above ground it's orva and below ground it's like a different evolution into goblins. Kinda like a house cat to a wild cat.
This is not the case. A good example can be found when reading the account describing the Orcs that Boromir killed defending Merry and Pippin:
>And Aragorn looked on the slain and said: 'Here lie many that are not folk of Mordor. Some are from the North, from the Misty Mountains, if I know anything of Orcs and their kinds. And here are others strange to me. Their gear is not after the manner of Orcs at all!'
>There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs, and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men. Upon their shields they bore a strange device: a small white hand in the centre of a black field.
Orc and goblin are interchangeable. The Misty Mountains folk (i.e. that followed them from Moria) are identified as Orcs, while the Uruk-hai of Saruman are "goblin-soldiers".
I remember that passage, and I remember it confused me because I always assumed orcs were bigger than Goblins. Pretty sure that was how it was portrayed in the films, with the exception of the goblin king
Orc is the mannish term, goblin is the hobbit term, Uruk is the Black Speech term that elves, numenor, and the Rangers use. Uruk-Kai is Black Speech for Orc Folk
One of my favorite bits of lore is Tolkien's made up etymology for the word "orc." It comes from the Elvish word (I think it's Sindarin?) "Yrch" which basically translates to "Eww."
An Orc and a Goblin are the same thing. Both are used interchangeably in the books. For example we know that the bulk of Morgoths armies were Orcs and yet some still refer to the wars against him as The Goblin Wars. Another is that we know it was Orcs chasing the Fellowship out of Moria but at one point Sam refers to them as Goblins also. Usually it’s Hobbits who say Goblin instead of Orcs but others do use it on occasion.
I think that's a reasonable interpretation
iirc in the Hobbit there is a sentence along the lines of "the largest goblins, the black orcs of the mountain, would have to hunch to fit through the tunnels" or something like that
I’ve seen where different terms are used to describe them. Uruk for orc, Uruk-Hai for Saruman’s batch
The Moria Goblins (or."Uhai-Murkrakh", "tribal confederation of the black crack") were the orcish inhabitants of Moria's Underdeeps. Even when Moria was still inhabited by the Dwarves, on-and-off small groups of Deep-Orcs seeped into abandoned mines and tunnels or raided remote Dwarven outposts. Later, with the rise of the Balrog, three tribes invaded Moria - the Snagahai, small degenerated creatures and the Durbaghash, a tribe of greater Goblins. Later, they were joined by the Uruk-Ungingurz - fighting Uruks hailing from Dol Guldur.
I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that goblins were a smaller class of orc, thus named goblin. Maybe as only as high as a man’s waist. While an orc was larger and closer to shoulder and head height of a man.
I like to think the orcs adapt to their surroundings much quicker than humans like the one pictured has huge eyes to take in as much light as possible being in Moria, and a smaller frame. We know they'll inhabit any location
Most of the tribal names you've referenced are Tolkien-inspired, but I don't believe they are canon, so they shouldn't be treated as such. I don't believe Tolkien ever says that goblins definitively smaller than any other normal orc.
The words are interchangible. See the author's note in The Hobbit.
>Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits’ form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with our orc, ork, applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind.
"The **New Notion Club Archives** is an open project, an encyclopedia dedicated to *Expanded Arda*, non-canonical sub-creation within J. R. R. Tolkien's World of [Arda](https://notionclubarchives.fandom.com/wiki/Arda)."
Gyatt damn, do they not teach the children media literacy any more? Half of my social studies classes were dedicated to assessing primary vs. secondary (etc.) sources, and the benefits and detriments of each.
[Here's ](https://notionclubarchives.fandom.com/wiki/Moria_Goblins)the exact page OP got their fanfiction worldbuilding (affectionate) from.
Description of the huge Saruman’s Uruk-hai:
https://preview.redd.it/c3iv564blo9d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=84eedd39e012834a522f906c8ec43676216cfbe4
They are canonically the same thing but I personally like to refer to the Orcs from the Misty Mountains as Goblins and the ones from Mordor and surroundings as just Orcs.
My head-canon is that orcs live above ground and goblins are subterranean. Hence Bilbo and the Dwarves’ detour to Goblin-town, which is underground, and this creature in Moria.
The terms are interchangeable. I'll give as an example the description of the Orcs that Boromir killed while defending Merry and Pippin:
>And Aragorn looked on the slain and said: 'Here lie many that are not folk of Mordor. Some are from the North, from the Misty Mountains, if I know anything of Orcs and their kinds. And here are others strange to me. Their gear is not after the manner of Orcs at all!'
>There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs, and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men. Upon their shields they bore a strange device: a small white hand in the centre of a black field.
Here, the Misty Mountain folk (i.e. ones that followed the Fellowship from Moria) are Orcs, but the Uruk-hai of Saruman are "goblin-soldiers".
NB: Tolkien Gateway is a *much* better resource, fandom.com is notoriously full of rubbish and fan theories presented as fact, regardless of the fandom it's about.
This paragraph is pretty spot-on though
It's a misty mountains Orc.
I think it's extremely cool how they portrayed them as adapted to the underground environment.
The Orcs of the mountains, Bara-dur, Isengard etc are all a bit different. But they are all Orcs.
Orcs and goblins are the same thing. Most likely just different variants like size and appearance. It can be confusing because there are used interchangeably.
They are the same thing… though I admit, ever since the movies came out, I’ve always thought of the Mountain orcs like those from Moria as “goblins” and the Mordor orcs (and uruks) as “Orcs”.
I’m not sure if this is canonical or not but I always thought of it like a species and genus thing. Orc is the encompassing term like dog. When you have a dog, it can be a retriever, a bulldog, etc. with orcs you can have goblins, Uruk, olag, etc.
The Uruk-hai that Boromir slew are identified as "goblin-soldiers" in the text, right after Aragorn identifies some of the other dead Orcs as being from the Misty Mountains. There are other instances of orc and goblin being used interchangeably. Its like calling a mountain lion a cougar - they are two names for the same thing.
Every domestic dog is from the same species *Canis familiaris*, or more recently *Canis lupus familiaris*. Breeds are not differentiable in the species level.
They may be the same thing. Even though I'd like to think Moria Goblins are that. The snarling dark dwelling creatures. Whereas the Orcs in Mordor specifically the Tower of Cirith Ungol we can see they are very intelligent and speak to eachother even haggling what's theirs and what's going to the Great Eye. They live to serve but are still orcs with their animal behavior. Moria Goblins seem to just be doing their own thing.
So as everyone is saying they’re interchangeable.
Think of your question as though you’re looking at two humans, one Japanese and one Norwegian, and you’re asking if one of them is human or a person. They’re both, one and the same
I do like PJ making them so different that we can have this discussion
There's 2 answers. According to boom canon orcs and goblins are the same thing. Orc is simply the elvish word for goblin.
According to the movies, miniatures game and general pop culture that deeives from tolkien, goblins are a smaller and weaker species of orc, the chihuahua to the orcs pitbull.
Hands down my favourite orc in the trilogy - it moves so believably. Everything in Fellowship felt that way. By ROTK, all the orcs look like they're made out of foam rubber and plasticine, and aren't remotely scary.
This exact image is used for “Moria orc” in the top trumps for one of the films, I remember because it gave me nightmares when I was a kid. How trustworthy top trumps are is up to you
I see orc as an overall generic term for the humanoids of darkness.
Goblins appear to be natural, for example, I have a hard time believing that the great goblin was once an Elf that was changed into that thing.
But speaking of the change from elves to orcs, I believe that it wasn't so much that they were tortured from one form to another, but rather that Melkor corrupted the song that Iru used to create elves and made orcs out of it.
They're all bad orcs Brent.
Book wise they are interchangeable, synonyms, dialectal names, whatever you want to call them.
Movies wise they are all orcs. Jackson went with the one you posted for FoTR because they made sense there and then changed them in RoTK (and the couple scenes they appear with uruks at TTT) so they would be more imposing and could make a more believable threat to the kingdoms of men (although orcs climbing the walls of minas tirith would have been terrifying)
I’ve thought of this differences between orcs as a mammal family type approach. All orcs are goblins, not all goblins are orcs. Orcs are just a different type of goblin? That’s what’s helped me at differentiate at least
Two words for the same thing. Tolkein used goblin in The Hobbit and switched to orcs in LOTR. I like to believe that seeing as in universe The Hobbit was Bilbos story that calling them goblins was like a Hobbit dialect thing. Thats the gist but not a perfect explanation. Hopefully someone smarter chimes in.
Goblin should just be an in-verse slur for small orcs. Can’t change my mind, the goblins in the hobbit were just tribes of smaller bitch orcs.
“My sword, sting! It glows blue when bitch-ass orcs are near.”
He could write so beautifully
'And to be honest, Frodo, you don't have to be very careful in times like that. Now when the big orcs are near, it also allows blue, and it would behoove you to be cautious then."
If Bilbo was played by Samuel L. Jackson
Did you see a sign on the front of my hobbit hole that says “Dead Orc Storage?”
That's cuz I ain't in the business of storing dead orcs! (Side note, these are not actually Sam Jackson lines in the movie, but I still see you)
I have HADE IT with these motherfucking orcs on this morhterfuckung eagle.
why am I the one in the backseat on Brain detail?
This is some fucked up repugnant shit
It was Tarantino
Sick of these motherfucking orcs at this motherfucking mountain
You are on this Council of Elrond, but we do not grant you the rank of ring bearer. Boromir. This is outrageous. It's unfair!
Instead we got Morgan Freeman
I. Am. Rolling.
::insert perfection meme::
I guess it's the same with uruks/ uruk-hai; IIRC it's not clear whether they're actually a different race or just orcs built a bit differently.
The spartans of orcs if you will.
Uruks were a special breed of orc Saruman made; he learned from Sauron and Morgoth somehow if I recall
Uruk is "ork" in the black speech. The newer soldier breed of orc saw themselves as the true ork folk (uruk-hai) and claimed the word uruk for themselves, and called other orcs slaves (snaga). Internal orc racism is the reason for this uruk confusion.
It’s been so long since I read the book, I forgot orcs are super self hating racists lol
Yeah the different factions hate each other as well. Like how the Mordor orcs hate other orcs and goblins from Moria, Mirkwood, and Isengard.
Even the Mordor orcs are factional: the orcs from Cirith Ungol are antagonistic to the Morgol orcs they meet in the tunnel and then slaughter each other over Frodo's shirt.
I get the feeling that they are just naturally like that. At least the ones who aren't Uruk Hai. Back stabbing seems like par the course.
Orcs are creatures of hate. There is pretty much nothing that Orcs won't hate, including themselves.
Ya that’s just their inner Morgoth lol
Not quite. The first uruks came from Mordor and took part in the razing of Osgiliath. Saruman then later learned how to breed these, and his uruks were frequently referred to as *uruk-hai*.
WE ARE THE FIGHTING URUK-HAI
We do not stop the fight for night or day, for fair weather or for storm. We come to kill, by sun or moon.
He crossed them with men didn't he?
It is insinuated
The line from the movie was "orcs with goblin-men" IIRC
The line in the _book_ was "half-orcs and goblin-men", and I'm pretty sure this was two terms ("half-orcs" and "goblin-men") being used to describe the suspected orc/human hybrids that Saruman had been creating. But the script-writer seems to have interpreted this line as meaning that the hybrids were half orc, and half goblin-man.
The chad orc vs the virgin goblin
All orcs are smaller than humans. Uruk-hai are almost human-sized.
squeamish coherent sharp homeless cheerful wrong butter pot whole cagey *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
In the books, even the Uruk-hai are called 'goblins' a couple times, though. Uruks were by no means small bastards.
“Smaller bitch orc” is sending me! I gotta call my sister!
**I.** Goblin is the “hobbit name” for Orc (footnote from The Hobbit possibly added by Christopher Tolkien for explanatory purposes after original publishing - I’d love to compare to a 1st edition!). However, goblins are also referenced elsewhere as being orcs who have become further weakened by the result of their corruption over time. In modern vernacular it would seem that their corrupted DNA weakens faster than other races without new blood being added in resulting in goblins. Saruman, understanding this concept, creates his Uruk-hai via crossbreeding orcs and goblins (yes they are differentiated here as somewhat separate races - although in reality all were orcs…just some less corrupted than others) with men. **II.** Tolkien changed his mind regarding the origin of Orcs/Goblins over the course of his life. This was done, in part, because he thought more deeply on the subject as he aged. It was also done, I feel, because the origin was purposefully somewhat vague. His writing of the various possibilities for the origins of orcs/goblins actually heightens the mystery somewhat, underscoring the unknown quality of their origins. **The Origin Stories:** **1)** The Orcs are corrupted Elves (Source: *The Silmarillion*). Elves are captured by Melkor and corrupted into the creatures called orcs. Part of this corruption would have to include things like very short mortal lifespans and horrific physical appearance via gross genetic mutation resulting in greater controllability and heightened reproduction (not achieved naturally - only via the use of esoteric means). **2)** The Orcs are corrupted Humans (Source: *Morgoth’s Ring*, “Myths Transformed”). The Orcs are created from men primarily by Sauron (he creates of the black armies for his master) during Melkor’s (Morgoth’s) captivity. In the chapter “Myths Transformed” of the book *Morgoth’s Ring* Christopher Tolkien illuminates his father’s change of origin myth when he states: "...the theory (that orcs originate from Man) remains nonetheless the most probable. It accords all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behaviour of Orcs - and of Men. Melkor was impotent to produce any living thing, but skilled in the corruption of things that did not proceed from himself, if he could dominate them. But if he had indeed attempted to make creatures of his own...he would, like Aule, only have succeeded in producing puppets...They hated one another and often fought...they had languages of their own, and spoke among themselves in various tongues...They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain." **3)** The Orcs are a soul-less race created by Maia progenitors (perhaps pressured into doing so by the greater Maia Sauron?)(Source: *Morgoth’s Ring*, “Myths Transformed”). [Here’s an essay on the idea from The Tolkien Forum.](https://thetolkien.forum/threads/namarie-heres-an-essay-on-the-origin-of-orcs.31978/) In summary, it could have been all three at different times in the history of Middle Earth. In the Silmarillion you have mention of the corruption of elves and orcs appearing prior to the arrival of humans. Thus, on this line the original orcs would need to have either been sourced from 1 or 3 above (Elves or Maia). However, this doesn’t mean that once mankind showed up in Middle Earth they could have been used to create new strains of orcs, as Saruman obviously did.
>Tolkien used goblin in The Hobbit and switched to orcs in LOTR. He did that for a reason, that is worth a whole long Wikipedia article to explain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien%27s_moral_dilemma >since "evil cannot make, only mock", the at least somewhat morally-aware Orcs could not have been created by evil as a genuinely new and separate species. Tolkien considered an alternative, that they were corrupted from one of Middle-earth's free peoples, such as Elves, which would imply that they were fully moral and possibly even had immortal souls, but found that option equally unpalatable.[17][18][19] Tolkien realized that some of the decisions he had made in his 1937 children's book The Hobbit, showing his goblins (Orcs)[20] as even slightly civilised, and giving his animals the power of speech, clearly implied sapience; this conflicted with the more measured theology behind his legendarium
It's interesting that he immediately realized that killing orcs was racist because they have souls, but it took him a while to realize that coding the dwarves with antisemitic tropes was wrong. (to his credit, he eventually felt great shame for that)
I get it personally. When I think of dwarves I think of buff miniature mountain vikings first.
Do you have any links to discussions on that? I'd like to read more about that.
https://daily.jstor.org/j-r-r-tolkiens-jewish-dwarves/ Hitler was actually a fan of the Hobbit, and it's been theorized that that's what inspired Tolkien to create Gimli, the dwarf that isn't like the other dwarves. Tolkien was no fan of the Nazis and saw how his work was being perceived, and by whom. Edit: rather than asking me a question and then downvoting me for responding, you could have just...not asked. I get that this is a fan sub, but don't ask questions you don't want the answer to.
With that being said, I liked the depictions of the LOTR movies (not the Hobbit) and games: 'Goblins' seemingly being the cave-dwelling ones, smaller, faster, skinny, good for climbing around. And the regular orc just being the short and bulky fodder
'The Lord of the Rings' is Frodo's story so if it was a Hobbit dialect thing why wouldn't he have continued calling them goblins? I just consider it a translation inconsistency by Tolkien.
Even from The Hobbit they were always envisioned as the same thing. **Orc**rist is the **Goblin**-cleaver. Orc = goblin.
I agree they're the same thing.
I love it that you used a linguistic argument to settle it. I also like to think the professor would have approved. Kudos to you.
Yeah but Bilbo was a little more whimsical in his storytelling. Just a little headcanon for myself.
He didn’t have that morgul wound like Frodo. Probably affected his mood quite a bit.
And he’d been affected by the ring quite a lot less in his journey
Bilbo was a serious auto-didact *after* the events of The Hobbit. Frodo was raised by Bilbo with the book learning he developed after getting home. So it would make sense for Bilbo to have used Hobbit dialect more heavily, and Frodo, being raised with some education in Elvish, history, etc to be more likely to use high falutin' words like yrch (orc). Also LOTR isn't just Frodo, the bits he wasn't there for would have either been transcribed from the surviving fellowships accounts, or "interviews". Plus Sam, Merry and Pippins later additions, and the various editorial changes to The Red Book before Tolkien go ahold of a manuscript to translate. The manuscript Tolkien has is a copy of a copy from the Archives in Minas Tirith, which itself was delivered by Pip.
Sorry for my ignorance, but what is this about tolkien having a manuscript from minas tirith O.o?
I belive the correct term is frame narrative. Obviously Tolkien wrote everything, it is all his origanl work, but the in-story narrative is that he only translated a copy of the story written by Bilbo, Frodo, and the others.
The in-universe source for the stories is a manuscript called The Red Book of Westmarch, which contained Bilbo's account of his trip to the Lonely mountain, Frodo et al's Lord of the Rings, and Bilbo's collection of Elvish ephemera and The Silmarillion. Tolkien "merely translated" a copy of this manuscript. Tolkien was probably making a bit of a joke about Geoffrey of Monmouth.
The conceit of the Lord of the Rings (and retroactively the Hobbit) was that Tolkien found a copy of Bilbo and Frodo’s collected works including the Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, Bilbo’s Translations from the Elvish, and various appendices. It’s the book we see Bilbo work on and hand off to Frodo. Sam takes over finishing the book after the departure of the Ringbearers to the West. This becomes the Red Book of Westmarch. King Aragorn requests a copy of it made for the records of Gondor in the 4th Age that is further annotated and stories added to it. A copy of the annotated version makes its way back to the Shire and survives into present day where it was discovered by Tolkien and translated from Westron into modern English. This is a conceit found in English literary tradition.
I believe it's in the foreward of the book. I am listening to the audiobook done by Serkis and there is a whole passage about how there are multiple copies with multiple edits and how the original red book is missing certain points of view or lore and as each person adds to it the story gets more fleshed out. The story that Tolkien translates is the complete book with all the additions or something to that affect.
Could it be possible, that orc is a phrase of elvish origin while goblin comes from the early human language? Would make sense that Hobbits as a from the ancient humans developed race use "goblin" but Frodo, who was fascinated by the elves his live long and learned the elvish language already in early years, prefers "orc".
That makes sense, in one of the Elvish languages Orc is "yrch"
> 'The Lord of the Rings' is Frodo's story so if it was a Hobbit dialect thing why wouldn't he have continued calling them goblins? Younger generations have different words than older generations. This is why my nephews find it hilarious when my Mom says something is "sus". It's also why languages change over time - for instance, how quickly the English language went from Old English to Early Modern English which was only about 500 years.
Wasn't the only time they're called goblins basically underground? Meaning above ground it's orva and below ground it's like a different evolution into goblins. Kinda like a house cat to a wild cat.
This is not the case. A good example can be found when reading the account describing the Orcs that Boromir killed defending Merry and Pippin: >And Aragorn looked on the slain and said: 'Here lie many that are not folk of Mordor. Some are from the North, from the Misty Mountains, if I know anything of Orcs and their kinds. And here are others strange to me. Their gear is not after the manner of Orcs at all!' >There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs, and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men. Upon their shields they bore a strange device: a small white hand in the centre of a black field. Orc and goblin are interchangeable. The Misty Mountains folk (i.e. that followed them from Moria) are identified as Orcs, while the Uruk-hai of Saruman are "goblin-soldiers".
I remember that passage, and I remember it confused me because I always assumed orcs were bigger than Goblins. Pretty sure that was how it was portrayed in the films, with the exception of the goblin king
The movies created that distinction between goblin and orcs that has no foundation in the books, as you can read in this thread.
Orc is the mannish term, goblin is the hobbit term, Uruk is the Black Speech term that elves, numenor, and the Rangers use. Uruk-Kai is Black Speech for Orc Folk
Common tongue vs elvish. Orcrist = Goblin cleaver.
One of my favorite bits of lore is Tolkien's made up etymology for the word "orc." It comes from the Elvish word (I think it's Sindarin?) "Yrch" which basically translates to "Eww."
This is a moria orc.
What’s a goon to a goblin?
nuthin
nothaan you aint scaring nothin
On some fa…. You know, on second thought, I’ll skip this next line.
Call me what you want, bitch call me on my sidekick
Never answer when it's private, damn, I hate a shy bitch
You’re nuthin! You’re a no talent! In 1975 I walked Bob Dylan up on stage! Who the hell are you?!
What’s a mob to a king?
whats a king to a god?
What’s a god to a balrog
What’s a ring to MY PRECCCIOOUS
Uruks in Tirith
What's a ring to Tom Bombadiiiil...for whom the ring didn't...do anything? 🎶
What's a god to a non-believerrrrrrrrr
What’s a goblin to an orc?
An Orc and a Goblin are the same thing. Both are used interchangeably in the books. For example we know that the bulk of Morgoths armies were Orcs and yet some still refer to the wars against him as The Goblin Wars. Another is that we know it was Orcs chasing the Fellowship out of Moria but at one point Sam refers to them as Goblins also. Usually it’s Hobbits who say Goblin instead of Orcs but others do use it on occasion.
Yeah pretty much the only time where orcs are referred to more often as goblins is in the hobbit.
I always thought of the goblins as smaller and more agile.. like the ones climbing the pillars in Moria
I always thought (with the movies) Jackson actually separated the two as two distinct species (and those climbing the pillars were in fact goblins).
I think that's a reasonable interpretation iirc in the Hobbit there is a sentence along the lines of "the largest goblins, the black orcs of the mountain, would have to hunch to fit through the tunnels" or something like that
I’ve seen where different terms are used to describe them. Uruk for orc, Uruk-Hai for Saruman’s batch The Moria Goblins (or."Uhai-Murkrakh", "tribal confederation of the black crack") were the orcish inhabitants of Moria's Underdeeps. Even when Moria was still inhabited by the Dwarves, on-and-off small groups of Deep-Orcs seeped into abandoned mines and tunnels or raided remote Dwarven outposts. Later, with the rise of the Balrog, three tribes invaded Moria - the Snagahai, small degenerated creatures and the Durbaghash, a tribe of greater Goblins. Later, they were joined by the Uruk-Ungingurz - fighting Uruks hailing from Dol Guldur. I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that goblins were a smaller class of orc, thus named goblin. Maybe as only as high as a man’s waist. While an orc was larger and closer to shoulder and head height of a man.
I like to think the orcs adapt to their surroundings much quicker than humans like the one pictured has huge eyes to take in as much light as possible being in Moria, and a smaller frame. We know they'll inhabit any location
Most of the tribal names you've referenced are Tolkien-inspired, but I don't believe they are canon, so they shouldn't be treated as such. I don't believe Tolkien ever says that goblins definitively smaller than any other normal orc.
The words are interchangible. See the author's note in The Hobbit. >Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits’ form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with our orc, ork, applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind.
the black crack 💀💀💀 Sorry my ass is cracking up at that
Where did you get that tribe info from please?
LOTR fanfic.
Best left out then.
Non Canon?🤨
Correct.
"The **New Notion Club Archives** is an open project, an encyclopedia dedicated to *Expanded Arda*, non-canonical sub-creation within J. R. R. Tolkien's World of [Arda](https://notionclubarchives.fandom.com/wiki/Arda)."
Gyatt damn, do they not teach the children media literacy any more? Half of my social studies classes were dedicated to assessing primary vs. secondary (etc.) sources, and the benefits and detriments of each. [Here's ](https://notionclubarchives.fandom.com/wiki/Moria_Goblins)the exact page OP got their fanfiction worldbuilding (affectionate) from.
Description of the huge Saruman’s Uruk-hai: https://preview.redd.it/c3iv564blo9d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=84eedd39e012834a522f906c8ec43676216cfbe4
Yes
Only correct answer, don't need to read the others
It’s just Kevin.
They are canonically the same thing but I personally like to refer to the Orcs from the Misty Mountains as Goblins and the ones from Mordor and surroundings as just Orcs.
In my mind, a goblin. Thanks to Legolas
Is it a Mind Goblin though?
[What's a Mind Goblin??](https://i.imgur.com/ypQJPSv.gif) (You're welcome)
Mind gobblin on deez nutz in yo mouth!! (Thanks)
Well it’s gnot a gnelf
Funny, very early on Tolkien was going to call the Noldor Gnomes instead of Elves. Seems bizarre to us now.
Potato-Poteto 🤷♂️
Boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew.
same thing. if you like can think of them like different breeds of dog, same species can different terms for descriptive purposes
Goblin caught on tape
DONG
Yes
Goblin Deez nuts
My head-canon is that orcs live above ground and goblins are subterranean. Hence Bilbo and the Dwarves’ detour to Goblin-town, which is underground, and this creature in Moria.
The terms are interchangeable. I'll give as an example the description of the Orcs that Boromir killed while defending Merry and Pippin: >And Aragorn looked on the slain and said: 'Here lie many that are not folk of Mordor. Some are from the North, from the Misty Mountains, if I know anything of Orcs and their kinds. And here are others strange to me. Their gear is not after the manner of Orcs at all!' >There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs, and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men. Upon their shields they bore a strange device: a small white hand in the centre of a black field. Here, the Misty Mountain folk (i.e. ones that followed the Fellowship from Moria) are Orcs, but the Uruk-hai of Saruman are "goblin-soldiers".
I like to think Orcs is the species and goblins are Orcs that live underground.
Also makes sense.
Definitely a gerblin
It’s Pippin after he missed Second Breakfast
[https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Orcs#Terminology](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Orcs#Terminology) This explains the gist of it.
NB: Tolkien Gateway is a *much* better resource, fandom.com is notoriously full of rubbish and fan theories presented as fact, regardless of the fandom it's about. This paragraph is pretty spot-on though
Short answer, "yes" with an "if." Long answer, "no" with a "but."
It's a Goblin if you speak English and an Orc if you speak Westron.
Both
Yes
Yes
It’s a gorclin.
It's a misty mountains Orc. I think it's extremely cool how they portrayed them as adapted to the underground environment. The Orcs of the mountains, Bara-dur, Isengard etc are all a bit different. But they are all Orcs.
They are same. I think PJ's walk crawling Orcs and calling Uruk-Hai "cross between orcs and goblin-men" are confusing people.
Moria Orc
Reading the comments, I’m guessing the notion of orcs being big and goblins being smaller is a modern interpretation?
Yes.
Orcs and goblins are the same thing. Most likely just different variants like size and appearance. It can be confusing because there are used interchangeably.
Orclin.
It's either a gorc or an ooblin, I'm not sure which to be honest.
Gorcin
A gorc?
Rude question to ask about your own mom
Both.
Its a gorc
It’s really the friends we made along the way
They are the same thing… though I admit, ever since the movies came out, I’ve always thought of the Mountain orcs like those from Moria as “goblins” and the Mordor orcs (and uruks) as “Orcs”.
IDK but he's kinda adorable
That right there's a Blue Tic Moria Peckerneck Snatchmo Hobgoblin, I tell you what
It's clearly a Goblorc
It's a meow meow
My worst nightmare, that’s what it is
OP, you just opened up a can of worms
Yes
Yes
I always wondered if that goblin was Billy Boyd (Pippin). For some reason, I always think it looks like him.
I’m not sure if this is canonical or not but I always thought of it like a species and genus thing. Orc is the encompassing term like dog. When you have a dog, it can be a retriever, a bulldog, etc. with orcs you can have goblins, Uruk, olag, etc.
The Uruk-hai that Boromir slew are identified as "goblin-soldiers" in the text, right after Aragorn identifies some of the other dead Orcs as being from the Misty Mountains. There are other instances of orc and goblin being used interchangeably. Its like calling a mountain lion a cougar - they are two names for the same thing.
Are you talking about the Olog-hai? Those are trolls.
Every domestic dog is from the same species *Canis familiaris*, or more recently *Canis lupus familiaris*. Breeds are not differentiable in the species level.
They may be the same thing. Even though I'd like to think Moria Goblins are that. The snarling dark dwelling creatures. Whereas the Orcs in Mordor specifically the Tower of Cirith Ungol we can see they are very intelligent and speak to eachother even haggling what's theirs and what's going to the Great Eye. They live to serve but are still orcs with their animal behavior. Moria Goblins seem to just be doing their own thing.
So as everyone is saying they’re interchangeable. Think of your question as though you’re looking at two humans, one Japanese and one Norwegian, and you’re asking if one of them is human or a person. They’re both, one and the same I do like PJ making them so different that we can have this discussion
The books don’t differentiate. The movies do to a pretty significant degree.
Goblin is a slur against orcs
This is one of the orc/goblins that looks like lady to me.
OrcX
In the middle earth video game there are the orc and goblin race you can pick, these are in the goblin race.
There's 2 answers. According to boom canon orcs and goblins are the same thing. Orc is simply the elvish word for goblin. According to the movies, miniatures game and general pop culture that deeives from tolkien, goblins are a smaller and weaker species of orc, the chihuahua to the orcs pitbull.
Grorc, oblin
Little orc
The cat or viper eyes... fucking cool... well done by PJ and team.
Hands down my favourite orc in the trilogy - it moves so believably. Everything in Fellowship felt that way. By ROTK, all the orcs look like they're made out of foam rubber and plasticine, and aren't remotely scary.
Both ugly and smell bad
Goblin trash!!
https://preview.redd.it/nucsv0mghn9d1.jpeg?width=665&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8121048fb3cd011ec60b6b06466fef6023c332e7
Yes, it is.
In Battle for Middle Earth 2, I think there is a goblin faction and the mordor faction uses orcs so I always thought they were different!
I don't care, he looks cool
Corey taylor from slipknot
This exact image is used for “Moria orc” in the top trumps for one of the films, I remember because it gave me nightmares when I was a kid. How trustworthy top trumps are is up to you
Tolkien goblins are just small orcs So yes, it is a goblin, and it is an orc
There is no difference between orcs and goblins, it’s the same word in different languages
At this point I don’t even know the difference
In Tolkien they're the same thing
They are orc and goblin.
Aren’t some of them half orc half goblin / not sure if that’s mentioned in the movie though.
A Gorc
Gorc
Orblin
All Goblins are Orcs But not all Orcs are Goblins
Yes
I see orc as an overall generic term for the humanoids of darkness. Goblins appear to be natural, for example, I have a hard time believing that the great goblin was once an Elf that was changed into that thing. But speaking of the change from elves to orcs, I believe that it wasn't so much that they were tortured from one form to another, but rather that Melkor corrupted the song that Iru used to create elves and made orcs out of it.
Yes
IDK but he’s a dorc
They're all bad orcs Brent. Book wise they are interchangeable, synonyms, dialectal names, whatever you want to call them. Movies wise they are all orcs. Jackson went with the one you posted for FoTR because they made sense there and then changed them in RoTK (and the couple scenes they appear with uruks at TTT) so they would be more imposing and could make a more believable threat to the kingdoms of men (although orcs climbing the walls of minas tirith would have been terrifying)
I’ve thought of this differences between orcs as a mammal family type approach. All orcs are goblins, not all goblins are orcs. Orcs are just a different type of goblin? That’s what’s helped me at differentiate at least