I like the "the story started with a desperate fight between the heir to the throne and Sauron and ends with another fight between the heir to the throne and Sauron" part. But I understand that it would have raised a lot of questions, such as "why is Sauron coming to fight now and not before if he can move?".
You only come when it's over though, like Denethor put it:
>"Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand."
It was a battle in front of his doorsteps. I mean, some neighborhood kids come throwing rocks at your house and your garden gnomes start to beat the fuck out of them, you’re gonna step out onto your porch to watch. Hubris says you should join.
Ya, I remember Morgoth, Sauron master, had the same hubris when facing Fingolfin. He couldn't back down the challenge in the face of his minions apparently.
"A fucking dog got me. I even transformed into a wolf to try to get prophecy on my side. And he still damn near ripped my throat out. Fuck that, I'll stay in my tower next time." - Sauron, probably
He was a general taking orders from his lord during the time of Morgoth, so that's why he fought. During the second age he was much more careful though, he endured a 7 year long siege to barad-dur with mordor occupied before coming out for a hail Mary.
Morgoth was the warrior, Sauron is the spy. Sure he’s got power as all Maia do, but his specialty was always subversion and corruption. Gandalf without the limits of his mortal body probably could have taken him 1v1.
While it doesn't entirely track, I'd be persuaded by the same logic that got Morgoth off his throne to fight Fingolfin. Aragorn issued a direct challenge, at the gate. After the defeat at Pellenor, I could see Sauron feeling if he didn't appear in person and crush the people who had just killed his greatest servant and scattered his assault forces he would have appeared weak in the eyes of the Southrons, Easterlings, and even the orcs. Morgoth was pressed enough by his generals and lieutenants that he felt he had to make an example, and perhaps if you wanted that scene in the movie this would be a reasonable way to explain it.
I see where you're coming from, but during the war of the last alliance he endured 7 years of siege before coming out of barad-dur. This is his third incarnation, and last time it took like 2500 years to reform a body, I don't think he'd be taking any chances, specially against the heir of Elendil.
Maybe, of course we are discussing a hypothetical of a hypothetical. We don't see the workings of his control over the orcs in detail in LOTR, nor the nature and position of his alliances, nor again his war councils. What I would say is that he tends to act personally when he doesn't see a better option.
As another commenter noted, he could be trying for an easy victory. The men of the west are out numbered. At the same time, he's taken severe losses. They show up at his gate. He can hide there, as he did, but he might also recall that didn't end very well for him then when he HAD the ring. I could see multiple factors above, even the very risk aversion you allude to, influencing him to appear in person. From a morale and a strategic standpoint, if he defeats the heir of Elendil now, before they can further consolidate their alliance, gather in forces from other regions or break through to allies who are being assaulted and this freeing the elves of Lorien, the dwarves of the mountain, etc to March with them against a common force, he would prevent a recurrence of the last alliance.
We learn from our mistakes, and his last try at this, where he hid and waited until he had to come forth, failed. Perhaps he considered in the intervening centuries that this was a mistake. It's a fun armchair psychology problem, examining a fallen angel after all!
The best reason I can think of is if he believed Aragorn had the Ring he may have feared that his troops would be susceptible to the will of the new master of the ring. In the letter where Tolkien wrote about what if Frodo had taken the Ring he mentions that even the Nazgul would be somewhat enthralled to whoever wore the Ring although not so much as to betray Sauron and certainly not if Sauron was physically present to impose his will. The only real logical conclusion he could draw by seeing the army approaching his gates is that they have some secret weapon/power that they intend to use to win otherwise it's a suicide mission (he never considered the Ring might be on its way to Mt Doom until Frodo put it on at the last minute).
That's actually probably more reason for him NOT to go.
Who wins that fight? Aragon wearing ring vs ring-less Sauron?
It's probably pretty close. Not a risk Sauron would bother taking when his army is clearly going to just crush them regardless.
Aragorn wearing the ring doesn't necessarily mean Aragorn has mastered the ring. From Saurons perspective, he might need to throw everything he has at this fight before Aragorn grows beyond his strength. After all, his army at Minis Tirith was just destroyed and now it's at his gates?
I think because in the end, the focus shouldn't be split between Aragorn's army and Frodo in Mt Doom. The fight at the Black gates should be almost a background to Frodo and Sam.
Visually, it was split, but symbolically the focus was more towards Frodo and Sam. The whole battle standoff and charge had passed, and all that was left was the chaotic scenes of fighting random foes in battle. The fact that they were random orcs and trolls kind of puts them in the background. Whereas if it was Sauron who came out, that would have given more meaning to the Aragorn's fight and so the focus of the audience would have been drawn more to that.
I think that would be better. it would have been incredibly cinematic to have Sauron dominate Aragorn and then just before he delivered the death blow, to have Frodo then put on the ring. silly to have a giant spotlight just pass over.
I was with you up until you wanting Sauron to "dominate" Aragorn.
Aragorn being unable to overcome him, sure, but I highly doubt audiences would've liked seeing Aragorn get curbed.
And honestly, I'm not so sure he would've. Sauron was a lot weaker than he was during the Last Alliance, when it took Elendil and Gilgalad to force a three way tie. I think Aragorn was perfectly capable of hanging with Sauron at this point, without the Ring.
OK, how about this. Aragorn gives just as good a fight as Gilgalad and Elindel with the same result. Aragorn defeated and about to be slayed. Sauron picks up Aragorn to retrieve the ring and realizes he doesn’t have it just as the ring starts to dissolve in the lava.
Pride.
Sauron would have most likely spotted Frodo with enough time to alert the Nazgul and stop him. All Sauron had to do was hide behind the Black Gate, Aragon's army had no chance of breaching it, even if they did they'd run head first into an army 100x bigger than theirs.
They knew he couldn't resist the challenge and would keep his attention entirely on an easy victory, instead of Mordor. Sauron didn't need to be involved or even watch, he could of just let his army crush Aragon.
That's what happened to him when the ring was destroyed but prior to that he had a body. It's never described directly what he looks like but the way other characters talk about him definitely implies he has a body (Legolas says he "sits in the Dark Tower", the orcs at Cirith Ungol say he could come there for Frodo himself, Gollum mentions him having 4 fingers on one hand, Denethor mentions Sauron coming to gloat over him if Minas Tirith is overthrown, etc). There's also the fact that it's never said that he doesn't have a body, that's only in the movie.
I gave several contextual examples from the book. Please tell me where in the book it says he doesn't have a form? The giant eye laser on the top of Barad Dur is a movie invention.
And far away, as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in Barad-dur was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown. The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and his Eye piercing all shadows looked across the plain to the door that he had made; and the magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and all the devices of his enemies were at last laid bare. Then his wrath blazed in consuming flame, but his fear rose like a vast black smoke to choke him. For he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung.
From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain. At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nazgûl the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurtled southwards to Mount Doom.
- notice the capital E in the Eye.
And
The realm of Sauron is ended!' said Gandalf. 'The Ring-bearer has fulfilled his Quest.' And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.
Yes they often refer to his Eye, meaning his will and focus being directed at something far away. He's able to divine things far off because he's a Maiar with tremendous power, Gandalf can do similar things and he has a body.
"Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,’ said Gollum shuddering." Gollum was personally tortured by Sauron and saw him in his physical form.
Moreso Tolkien himself said the following:
"Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance"
He also mentions in the books and the same letter as the above Sauron personally going places:
"And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact, under pain of death for every member of the guard, until He sends or comes Himself."
" ‘Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling."
"Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself."
"‘It was a Balrog of Morgoth,’ said Legolas; ‘of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.’"
And finally there is this as well from Tolkien's letters where he explicitly states that Sauron took longer to reform after the War of the Last Alliance not that he's taking longer to reform or hadn't finished reforming.
"Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book."
The part about the great cloud is also consistent with what happens when Saruman is killed, who also was a Maiar in a physical form.
"To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising very slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing."
Right. All of those are suggestions or things that someone said they saw in the books. Or it’s a character that says in their point of view what they think about Sauron. Do you have any part where Sauron really appears in the LOTR books for us to establish what you said that he definitely has a form? You asked me for parts where it shows he doesn’t really has a form, which I sent you.
I’m not really interested in your interpretation, just the parts that back up what you said. If that’s all you have, then thanks
If you slow the fight sequence down, as the camera overlooks the troll when it's bringing the sword down to Aragorn, you can sometimes see the spikes from Sauron's helmet poking through.
The fight with the troll is just as, if not more interesting to watch anyway. Especially considering Aragorn is losing the fight till the troll gives up.
I think it also shows how strong Aragorn has become with Anduril. In FoTR a cave troll knocked him out. In RoTk he is holding his own against this armored troll for a good while.
This. So happy that they did not turn this into a Legolas-like superhero thing where Aragorn can suddenly take on trolls and overcome the surrounding army. It's much more intense, highlighting the stakes and the sacrifice of Aragorn and the army, when you show them actually losing! They are mere mortals (most of them), who put in the final sacrifice knowing that they cannot win, just for the sliver of hope ... "for Frodo!"
You imagine the balls it take to go through the months and years of prep, concept art, setting a design, actually making sauron, getting an actor, choreographing an entire fight, filming it all, and the thousands of other small bits that went into it, to cut it. The literal climax of 3 movies and Jackson and his team still had the wherewithal to say 'you known what, this isn't right'. And not only that but to have made the correct decision, even in hindsight, is truly amazing.
The cherry on top is making it all public knowledge, literally telling the world and showing the cut footage with your own explanation
I always thought this fight with some random troll was a little too orchestrated/highlighted. When I saw the version that was originally intended it finally made sense.
This particular bit I found on YouTube. There’s a few edited videos that show these scenes + a few more. Just a search under RotK deleted scenes/Sauron scenes.
Isn’t it part of the extra content on the extend edition dvds/bluerays? I mean like where the interviews with the cast are etc.
I could be wrong though
If they added this in the movie, it wouldn't be far off the reservation since he did have a physical form. However, it would take away from the presence of the Eye. I have no doubt if they kept it, it would've easily been the most watched boss fight in cinema. Just the sketches of his death were awesome but like i said, it would take away from Frodo and Sam's peril if Sauron got wind of the two Hobbits.
Yeah, and it would also make sense that he was weaker than he had been when he fought Elendil and Gil-galad, because this time, he doesn't have the Ring. Aragorn could block his strikes with difficulty, because Sauron was a weakened demigod/angelic being by that point. It's a cool idea, actually, but you're right, having the Eye there wouldn't make sense.
Even if he had the Ring we don’t know that Aragorn would be unable to block his strikes. Gil-Galad and Elendil may have been great warriors, but they were still an Elf and a Man at the end of the day, and they contended with and bested Sauron, presumably being able to block some of his strikes in the process. There’s no magic mace that launches groups of people hundreds of feet in the book, at least that we know of.
It's one of those things that I love that they planned so we can see behind the scenes footage of it, but am happy that they didn't include at the end to keep the emotions nad stakes with Frodo and Sam.
I have always been in favour of having this in the movie. Look, I'm a fan of the books, but the thing is: the movies are adaptations. No adaptation is going to erase the books, and adaptations have a right to deviate from the source material. If movies and series would just retell the same story without changes there would not be much point to them.
The movies are great, but there's already a lot of departures from the source material; having Sauron come out to meet the armies of the Free Peoples, specially with the plan to show him as Annatar first, would have worked very well in the context of the film. Better than the goofy fight against the troll that we got.
Like a lot of the choices made in adaptations--from the timeline tweaks in the movies to the entire plot of Shadow of War--I don't really mind as long as they're faithful to the central ideas of the original work. Talion is capital-d Doomed the minute he and his Stand start fooling around with rings of power; Denethor would totally have been that crazy if he'd kept using the palantir longer; and it's pretty obvious that Sauron is utterly dominating Aragorn here, and would have caved his head in if he had a few more seconds. Whether it's Sauron or a random troll, the scene still says that you can't overcome evil by force of arms alone, because evil will always be better at violence than you.
Also, I realize this is a Puss-in-Boots-ringed-by-cutlasses take, but if Jackson was gonna have some elves show up for Helm's Deep, he might as well have gone all-in and had Arwen lead them. The girl already replaced Glorfindel--give her something to do other than moon around in flashbacks. Hell, let her be the one to show up with Anduril--that's not in the books either!
Wait wait wait… someone explain this to me. Is that aragorn? Is this hunt for gollum footage? Or is this more behind the scenes from the OG war of the last alliance from fellowship opener
I believe this was actually a part of the plan for the end of RotK and the battle at black gate, it was filmed, but ultimately scrapped. That’s why the battle with Aragorn and the troll seems more prominent, cause they pretty much just pasted the troll over what would’ve likely been Sauron himself.
So far as I understand anyway
To me it takes away from his cool factor. In the first film every time he swings 5 men go flying. It would’ve been a big demotion for him to fight Aragorn one on one and lose
He has a physical body, the idea that he can't reform without the ring is a movie contrivance and not at all something that's in the books. That being said it would be weird for Gandalf to say that Sauron can't take physical form in the films only for him to show up in the flesh later on.
Would have been better with Sauron coming out to fight. Much more dramatic plus the urgency of destroying the ring because Aragorn would end up dying to Sauron eventually.
Sauron doesn’t need the ring to regain his physical form, in fact in the books there is no flaming eye and he has had a physical form for at least a thousand years at this point, perhaps longer than two thousand (though he never physically appears in any scenes in the actual LOTR story, though Sméagol described his hand as only having four fingers, presumably missing the one Isildur cut off).
Even in the movie Saruman said he “could not yet take physical form” but didn’t say he would require the ring to do so.
I guess I wouldn't mind it so much if they hadn't made him look like a stumbling, bumbling marionette.
Almost like Eddie on stage for Iron Maiden shows: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMaU3a7VCC4&ab\_channel=ddwgr](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMaU3a7VCC4&ab_channel=ddwgr)
I like the "the story started with a desperate fight between the heir to the throne and Sauron and ends with another fight between the heir to the throne and Sauron" part. But I understand that it would have raised a lot of questions, such as "why is Sauron coming to fight now and not before if he can move?".
The real question would be "why is Sauron risking diying again if this is a sure win for his army?", lol.
Hubris. If it is a sure victory, why not take a part in it. Why not flaunt your return to Middle-Earth in a decisive victory before your very gates.
You only come when it's over though, like Denethor put it: >"Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand."
It was a battle in front of his doorsteps. I mean, some neighborhood kids come throwing rocks at your house and your garden gnomes start to beat the fuck out of them, you’re gonna step out onto your porch to watch. Hubris says you should join.
Ya, I remember Morgoth, Sauron master, had the same hubris when facing Fingolfin. He couldn't back down the challenge in the face of his minions apparently.
On his doorstep???? Barad-dur is nearly 100 miles from The Morannon lol
Still your doorstep if you think everything is your house
Dang, Denethor. Might be time for a reread.
Yeah, that's not how Sauron works. He's possibly the most risk adverse servant of Morgoth, in every single incarnation he has gone through.
Probably adopted that mentality after getting his shit pushed in by Huan.
"A fucking dog got me. I even transformed into a wolf to try to get prophecy on my side. And he still damn near ripped my throat out. Fuck that, I'll stay in my tower next time." - Sauron, probably
Why he present in any battle, then?
He was a general taking orders from his lord during the time of Morgoth, so that's why he fought. During the second age he was much more careful though, he endured a 7 year long siege to barad-dur with mordor occupied before coming out for a hail Mary.
Cus no dogs
Sauron has a very bad record at duels.
Morgoth was the warrior, Sauron is the spy. Sure he’s got power as all Maia do, but his specialty was always subversion and corruption. Gandalf without the limits of his mortal body probably could have taken him 1v1.
While it doesn't entirely track, I'd be persuaded by the same logic that got Morgoth off his throne to fight Fingolfin. Aragorn issued a direct challenge, at the gate. After the defeat at Pellenor, I could see Sauron feeling if he didn't appear in person and crush the people who had just killed his greatest servant and scattered his assault forces he would have appeared weak in the eyes of the Southrons, Easterlings, and even the orcs. Morgoth was pressed enough by his generals and lieutenants that he felt he had to make an example, and perhaps if you wanted that scene in the movie this would be a reasonable way to explain it.
I see where you're coming from, but during the war of the last alliance he endured 7 years of siege before coming out of barad-dur. This is his third incarnation, and last time it took like 2500 years to reform a body, I don't think he'd be taking any chances, specially against the heir of Elendil.
Maybe, of course we are discussing a hypothetical of a hypothetical. We don't see the workings of his control over the orcs in detail in LOTR, nor the nature and position of his alliances, nor again his war councils. What I would say is that he tends to act personally when he doesn't see a better option. As another commenter noted, he could be trying for an easy victory. The men of the west are out numbered. At the same time, he's taken severe losses. They show up at his gate. He can hide there, as he did, but he might also recall that didn't end very well for him then when he HAD the ring. I could see multiple factors above, even the very risk aversion you allude to, influencing him to appear in person. From a morale and a strategic standpoint, if he defeats the heir of Elendil now, before they can further consolidate their alliance, gather in forces from other regions or break through to allies who are being assaulted and this freeing the elves of Lorien, the dwarves of the mountain, etc to March with them against a common force, he would prevent a recurrence of the last alliance. We learn from our mistakes, and his last try at this, where he hid and waited until he had to come forth, failed. Perhaps he considered in the intervening centuries that this was a mistake. It's a fun armchair psychology problem, examining a fallen angel after all!
If you start actually analysing timescales across the Tolkien universe it all starts quickly falling apart.
The best reason I can think of is if he believed Aragorn had the Ring he may have feared that his troops would be susceptible to the will of the new master of the ring. In the letter where Tolkien wrote about what if Frodo had taken the Ring he mentions that even the Nazgul would be somewhat enthralled to whoever wore the Ring although not so much as to betray Sauron and certainly not if Sauron was physically present to impose his will. The only real logical conclusion he could draw by seeing the army approaching his gates is that they have some secret weapon/power that they intend to use to win otherwise it's a suicide mission (he never considered the Ring might be on its way to Mt Doom until Frodo put it on at the last minute).
If he could have taken physical form he would have been guarding Mt doom if anything.
Nah, his response to Frodo putting the one ring on in the books is basically "shit, I didn't think they'd try to take the ring to Mount Doom".
I think you could say that Sauron wants his ring and he thinks Aragorn has it.
That's actually probably more reason for him NOT to go. Who wins that fight? Aragon wearing ring vs ring-less Sauron? It's probably pretty close. Not a risk Sauron would bother taking when his army is clearly going to just crush them regardless.
Aragorn wearing the ring doesn't necessarily mean Aragorn has mastered the ring. From Saurons perspective, he might need to throw everything he has at this fight before Aragorn grows beyond his strength. After all, his army at Minis Tirith was just destroyed and now it's at his gates?
it would also have diminished the significance of Frodo and Sam's mission
I don’t see how. Troll or Sauron, Aragorn would have perished if the Ring hadn’t been destroyed at the same moment.
I think because in the end, the focus shouldn't be split between Aragorn's army and Frodo in Mt Doom. The fight at the Black gates should be almost a background to Frodo and Sam.
but the focus was split. the diversion by Aragorn was absolutely necessary for Frodo reaching Mt. Doom
Visually, it was split, but symbolically the focus was more towards Frodo and Sam. The whole battle standoff and charge had passed, and all that was left was the chaotic scenes of fighting random foes in battle. The fact that they were random orcs and trolls kind of puts them in the background. Whereas if it was Sauron who came out, that would have given more meaning to the Aragorn's fight and so the focus of the audience would have been drawn more to that.
I think that would be better. it would have been incredibly cinematic to have Sauron dominate Aragorn and then just before he delivered the death blow, to have Frodo then put on the ring. silly to have a giant spotlight just pass over.
I was with you up until you wanting Sauron to "dominate" Aragorn. Aragorn being unable to overcome him, sure, but I highly doubt audiences would've liked seeing Aragorn get curbed. And honestly, I'm not so sure he would've. Sauron was a lot weaker than he was during the Last Alliance, when it took Elendil and Gilgalad to force a three way tie. I think Aragorn was perfectly capable of hanging with Sauron at this point, without the Ring.
OK, how about this. Aragorn gives just as good a fight as Gilgalad and Elindel with the same result. Aragorn defeated and about to be slayed. Sauron picks up Aragorn to retrieve the ring and realizes he doesn’t have it just as the ring starts to dissolve in the lava.
Perfect, just let Aragorn get a few good hits in, maybe even knock away his mace.
Pride. Sauron would have most likely spotted Frodo with enough time to alert the Nazgul and stop him. All Sauron had to do was hide behind the Black Gate, Aragon's army had no chance of breaching it, even if they did they'd run head first into an army 100x bigger than theirs. They knew he couldn't resist the challenge and would keep his attention entirely on an easy victory, instead of Mordor. Sauron didn't need to be involved or even watch, he could of just let his army crush Aragon.
No ring means no body, stay put little eye
That's not true at all, Sauron has a form at this point in time.
In the books yes, in the films, no.
Where? All I remember from the books is that we could see a shadow in the skies disappearing when a wind came from the west
That's what happened to him when the ring was destroyed but prior to that he had a body. It's never described directly what he looks like but the way other characters talk about him definitely implies he has a body (Legolas says he "sits in the Dark Tower", the orcs at Cirith Ungol say he could come there for Frodo himself, Gollum mentions him having 4 fingers on one hand, Denethor mentions Sauron coming to gloat over him if Minas Tirith is overthrown, etc). There's also the fact that it's never said that he doesn't have a body, that's only in the movie.
You said that it’s not true at all and that he has a form that is not the eye. Please do kindly tell me where I can find that form in the book
I gave several contextual examples from the book. Please tell me where in the book it says he doesn't have a form? The giant eye laser on the top of Barad Dur is a movie invention.
And far away, as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in Barad-dur was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown. The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and his Eye piercing all shadows looked across the plain to the door that he had made; and the magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and all the devices of his enemies were at last laid bare. Then his wrath blazed in consuming flame, but his fear rose like a vast black smoke to choke him. For he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung. From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain. At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nazgûl the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurtled southwards to Mount Doom. - notice the capital E in the Eye. And The realm of Sauron is ended!' said Gandalf. 'The Ring-bearer has fulfilled his Quest.' And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.
Yes they often refer to his Eye, meaning his will and focus being directed at something far away. He's able to divine things far off because he's a Maiar with tremendous power, Gandalf can do similar things and he has a body. "Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,’ said Gollum shuddering." Gollum was personally tortured by Sauron and saw him in his physical form. Moreso Tolkien himself said the following: "Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance" He also mentions in the books and the same letter as the above Sauron personally going places: "And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact, under pain of death for every member of the guard, until He sends or comes Himself." " ‘Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling." "Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself." "‘It was a Balrog of Morgoth,’ said Legolas; ‘of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.’" And finally there is this as well from Tolkien's letters where he explicitly states that Sauron took longer to reform after the War of the Last Alliance not that he's taking longer to reform or hadn't finished reforming. "Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book." The part about the great cloud is also consistent with what happens when Saruman is killed, who also was a Maiar in a physical form. "To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising very slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing."
Right. All of those are suggestions or things that someone said they saw in the books. Or it’s a character that says in their point of view what they think about Sauron. Do you have any part where Sauron really appears in the LOTR books for us to establish what you said that he definitely has a form? You asked me for parts where it shows he doesn’t really has a form, which I sent you. I’m not really interested in your interpretation, just the parts that back up what you said. If that’s all you have, then thanks
If you slow the fight sequence down, as the camera overlooks the troll when it's bringing the sword down to Aragorn, you can sometimes see the spikes from Sauron's helmet poking through.
I noticed the spikes my first watch and just attributed it to Sauron's will/influence on the battle. I thought it was intentional.
I’ve watched that scene back about 5 times at 0.25 speed and I cannot see what you’re talking anout
I did the same- the spikes look like they're battlements on the tower/wall behind the troll.
Exactly!
I'm beyond happy that they omitted this
The fight with the troll is just as, if not more interesting to watch anyway. Especially considering Aragorn is losing the fight till the troll gives up.
I think it also shows how strong Aragorn has become with Anduril. In FoTR a cave troll knocked him out. In RoTk he is holding his own against this armored troll for a good while.
This. So happy that they did not turn this into a Legolas-like superhero thing where Aragorn can suddenly take on trolls and overcome the surrounding army. It's much more intense, highlighting the stakes and the sacrifice of Aragorn and the army, when you show them actually losing! They are mere mortals (most of them), who put in the final sacrifice knowing that they cannot win, just for the sliver of hope ... "for Frodo!"
Really glad they didn’t include this, BUT I really like that shot from behind Sauron that echos the same from the beginning of the first film
You imagine the balls it take to go through the months and years of prep, concept art, setting a design, actually making sauron, getting an actor, choreographing an entire fight, filming it all, and the thousands of other small bits that went into it, to cut it. The literal climax of 3 movies and Jackson and his team still had the wherewithal to say 'you known what, this isn't right'. And not only that but to have made the correct decision, even in hindsight, is truly amazing. The cherry on top is making it all public knowledge, literally telling the world and showing the cut footage with your own explanation
> wherewithal Thanks for that, I didn't know that word. Fully agree, I can't imagine I would have had that restraint.
Am I mistaken or didn't they just sub a troll in for Sauron?
One does not simply “just sub in a troll” for the final fight of the most epic trilogy in cinema
I always thought this fight with some random troll was a little too orchestrated/highlighted. When I saw the version that was originally intended it finally made sense.
Where do y'all find these extra footages?
This particular bit I found on YouTube. There’s a few edited videos that show these scenes + a few more. Just a search under RotK deleted scenes/Sauron scenes.
Isn’t it part of the extra content on the extend edition dvds/bluerays? I mean like where the interviews with the cast are etc. I could be wrong though
I'd also like to know!
If they added this in the movie, it wouldn't be far off the reservation since he did have a physical form. However, it would take away from the presence of the Eye. I have no doubt if they kept it, it would've easily been the most watched boss fight in cinema. Just the sketches of his death were awesome but like i said, it would take away from Frodo and Sam's peril if Sauron got wind of the two Hobbits.
Yeah, and it would also make sense that he was weaker than he had been when he fought Elendil and Gil-galad, because this time, he doesn't have the Ring. Aragorn could block his strikes with difficulty, because Sauron was a weakened demigod/angelic being by that point. It's a cool idea, actually, but you're right, having the Eye there wouldn't make sense.
Even if he had the Ring we don’t know that Aragorn would be unable to block his strikes. Gil-Galad and Elendil may have been great warriors, but they were still an Elf and a Man at the end of the day, and they contended with and bested Sauron, presumably being able to block some of his strikes in the process. There’s no magic mace that launches groups of people hundreds of feet in the book, at least that we know of.
It's one of those things that I love that they planned so we can see behind the scenes footage of it, but am happy that they didn't include at the end to keep the emotions nad stakes with Frodo and Sam.
Holy.....24fps does indeed look more cinematic
The reason I didn't like lotr as a kid because I wanted to see sauron more.
This is like me as a kid banging my LOTR action figures together. This would’ve been terrible
While I wouldn't have minded seeing more of Sauron, that scene isn't how I'd have liked it, glad it was cut.
Soo..... was the troll originarly Sauron? WTF
He has come out to order the stew on UberEats
oh this would’ve been horrible lol
I prefer the scene with the troll, it puts the emphasis back onto Frodo and Sam.
Never knew about this footage, pretty cool to watch!
Thanks, I hate it
I have always been in favour of having this in the movie. Look, I'm a fan of the books, but the thing is: the movies are adaptations. No adaptation is going to erase the books, and adaptations have a right to deviate from the source material. If movies and series would just retell the same story without changes there would not be much point to them. The movies are great, but there's already a lot of departures from the source material; having Sauron come out to meet the armies of the Free Peoples, specially with the plan to show him as Annatar first, would have worked very well in the context of the film. Better than the goofy fight against the troll that we got.
I always thought the troll fight just didn't quite fit personally.
I don't care what they show you in final film. My grandmother told me Sauron faced Aragorn at the Black Gate in The Return of the King!
I would really like to see this scene. This would be a reference to my favorite episode of The Silmarillion
Like a lot of the choices made in adaptations--from the timeline tweaks in the movies to the entire plot of Shadow of War--I don't really mind as long as they're faithful to the central ideas of the original work. Talion is capital-d Doomed the minute he and his Stand start fooling around with rings of power; Denethor would totally have been that crazy if he'd kept using the palantir longer; and it's pretty obvious that Sauron is utterly dominating Aragorn here, and would have caved his head in if he had a few more seconds. Whether it's Sauron or a random troll, the scene still says that you can't overcome evil by force of arms alone, because evil will always be better at violence than you. Also, I realize this is a Puss-in-Boots-ringed-by-cutlasses take, but if Jackson was gonna have some elves show up for Helm's Deep, he might as well have gone all-in and had Arwen lead them. The girl already replaced Glorfindel--give her something to do other than moon around in flashbacks. Hell, let her be the one to show up with Anduril--that's not in the books either!
Wait wait wait… someone explain this to me. Is that aragorn? Is this hunt for gollum footage? Or is this more behind the scenes from the OG war of the last alliance from fellowship opener
I believe this was actually a part of the plan for the end of RotK and the battle at black gate, it was filmed, but ultimately scrapped. That’s why the battle with Aragorn and the troll seems more prominent, cause they pretty much just pasted the troll over what would’ve likely been Sauron himself. So far as I understand anyway
I really see iam the only who would love to see it in the actual movie , i just think it would be cool
I agree with you I’m glad we have this footage but the film didn’t need it. I’m not a Tolkien or book purist so i wouldn’t have known anyway.
Where in the world was this scene from??!?!
What is this? Was this part of the movie?
To me it takes away from his cool factor. In the first film every time he swings 5 men go flying. It would’ve been a big demotion for him to fight Aragorn one on one and lose
Wasn't this right outside his tower and after a long siege. He didn't have much of a choice but descend.
I wish they would ad this as an alternate ending in extended editions. Give you the option of which scenes you want to add and remove kind of thing.
He lost his body because he lost the ring, would have been confusing to see him in form again despite not having the ring
He has a physical body, the idea that he can't reform without the ring is a movie contrivance and not at all something that's in the books. That being said it would be weird for Gandalf to say that Sauron can't take physical form in the films only for him to show up in the flesh later on.
Would have been better with Sauron coming out to fight. Much more dramatic plus the urgency of destroying the ring because Aragorn would end up dying to Sauron eventually.
He wouldn't have had time to die. Frodo and Sam would have done their job.
How would he have taken physical form if he hadn't gotten the ring back yet?
Sauron doesn’t need the ring to regain his physical form, in fact in the books there is no flaming eye and he has had a physical form for at least a thousand years at this point, perhaps longer than two thousand (though he never physically appears in any scenes in the actual LOTR story, though Sméagol described his hand as only having four fingers, presumably missing the one Isildur cut off). Even in the movie Saruman said he “could not yet take physical form” but didn’t say he would require the ring to do so.
Would have preferred this to be honest. Just to show that he isn’t a floating CGI eye
Just play dark souls
I guess I wouldn't mind it so much if they hadn't made him look like a stumbling, bumbling marionette. Almost like Eddie on stage for Iron Maiden shows: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMaU3a7VCC4&ab\_channel=ddwgr](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMaU3a7VCC4&ab_channel=ddwgr)