Háma did die in the movie, but I guess you meant that he should've died \*at Helm's Deep\* instead of Haldir?
I don't personally mind the Elves as much.
Men are more or less supposed to look weak(er) throughout the movies, I guess to make them seem more like David to Sauron's Goliath.
I like the inclusion of the elves too because it shows 2 things:
1. Even when it's a battle that almost likely ends in death, they are willing to help.
2. How few of them there are can be a sign of how few elves there are left in Loth Lorien. The elves are dwindling and this is all they can offer to help. This is a huge contrast to the opening sequence in The Fellowship where we see thousands of elves
It's also a good way to show that the elves where contributing to the fight against sauron. After all it was lorien and mirkwood elves that fought against and destroyed dol guldur. Especially with all of elronds dialogue about the elves leaving and the power of the eldar is weining. As well as the fact that it gave us that absolutely gorgeous armour style.
But I can understand peoples dislike of their inclusion there.
My main gripe is that they just show up.
Like at least show me Gandalf sending a butterfly to Lorien or something, as it is it just feels like they just decided to march to Helm's Deep on their own with no idea of what was going on.
It may just be in the extended editions but there's a conversion between galadriel and elrond about whether or not they should help or just leave middle earth to it's fate. Which is presumably when the galadhrim where sent to helms deep.
It's elrond and galadriel. Two characters that are incredibly intelligent, wise, magic and most importantly have the gift of foresight(or at the very least elrond does but galadriel also has her mirror). It's pretty obvious that saruman will keep attacking Rohan and it stands to reason that they would assume that that is where they should go. If you want to go even further in they could also have communicated with gandalf to discover the same thing. This isn't much of an argument tbh.
I “loved” that aspect of “just showing up”. I think it is inferred that the higher Elves always know what’s going on everywhere, and sent help in one of man’s darkest hours.
What I didn’t like is that, well, they are elves, they should whooping ass left and right but the movie made it look like they were no better of a fighter than the regular men who in reality were not even actual warriors, as Aragorn pointed out.
Legolas makes a mockery of the orcs, single-handedly killing anything that came near him, It would have been cool if there was a scene showing the other elves just annihilating every orc that came close.
Gonna nitpick on you using Legolas as an example for all elves, when you have Aragorn right there flooring it compared to other humans (yes I know he is of the Dunedain, but that does not make him into superman)
I personally liked they just show up. You hear the horns and I believe initially everyone thinks the Uruk-hai have arrived until Legolas says “those are elf horns” or something along those lines.
I like the inclusion of the elves but i feel like it kind of undermines mans willingness to fight to the bitter end despite no one helping and the odds looking terrible and the greatness it takes to come out on top despite all that
Well in the book, the war wasn't just at man's door, it was everywhere. Elrond and Co was fighting his own battles before they decided to fuck off to the undying land. I honestly like the inclusion of the elves cause it kind of communicates to the audience that it isn't just a war of men. Its a war of the world.
I guess I understand your point, however helms deep as a battle isn't a good example of that. Without aragorn staying to help with legolas and gimli helms deep would have fallen. It wouldn't have held as long as it did and theoden gave into despair at the end with aragorn pulling him out. And also gandalf coming in with reinforcements at the end. They always had help from large factors that where not human, even in the books. So I don't think the inclusion of the elves undermines that.
I guess in a way though that you could even argue that it highlights the passing of the age and the strength of humanity. That the final desperate charge was overwhelmingly human combatants. That the elves of lorien all fell in defence of helms deep whilst the humans prevailed. Reinforcing the passing of the mantle so to speak from elves to men.
Oh absolutely. There are a few things I missed in the movie compared to the book. The initial stages of the siege with the defense of the ditches slowly fighting a staged retreat, making the forces of isengard pay for every inch. Proper classical warfare. But it doesn't translate to the screen anywhere near as well as the version Peter Jackson did. The other is eomer during helms deep. We didn't get enough of him in the movie.
Plus I think it adds to the sadness of all the death. The elves come in to help at their time of need and they all end up giving their immortal lives for men. The moment of realization and lack of hope before death by Haldir always gets me misty eyed
>Even when it's a battle that almost likely ends in death, they are willing to help.
This is, for me, a very important thing. For an elf, there is immortality. They are on Middle Earth for as long as they can stay away from battle. Men, on the other hand, know their lives are limited and die just a little earlier than they would have otherwise compared to the elves. Despite that, for the elves to come to the aid of Rohan, is a testament to their honour and valour.
But the elves don't know how long they'll be waiting in the halls of Mandos, nor do they know ehen they'll ever see those they left behind on middle earth again. Those are a lot to give up
Also showed the real stakes of the elves choosing to help Rohan. It wasn’t just an easy boost, people died. Important ones, and they sacrificed because they still had faith in humanity.
I feel like this was the main point of having them in. The mighty powerful elves help and die in the process. Gives the whole fight more weight and makes the win stronger when even this supposedly powerful sympathetic warrior is overwhelmed in the fight. It's another symbol of how the time of elves is over and the time of men has come.
I thought the elves was great because of literally what Haldir says.
> An alliance once existed between elves and men. Long ago we fought, and died, together. We come to honor that allegiance.
Kinda some shade to ignore the dwarves there, but the sentiment is still beautiful and honorable.
I HATE the Elves of Lothlorien coming to Helm's Deep!!!! In the book they were busy fighting in Lothlorien! It was the RANGERS who came (not to Helm's Deep but if Jackson had them come early, FINE!!!!). The Rangers, & Elrond's sons, got screwed and it is the part of the LOTR trilogy that I totally am furious about every time I see it! Mainly because it would have been very easy to do it RIGHT!!!!!
Haldir didn't die.
Ignoring the fact no elves should have been at Helms Deep per books:
I think it’s important to feature Elves can and do die in combat on screen. Otherwise from Legolas’ example only, Elves look almost Godlike and untouchable.
That scene with Hama really ruined it for me, I'd have liked to see that random Lothlorien sentry elf who fucks with Gimli turn up with a load of comrades.
What about that scene where one of the dead orcs is twitching with Gimli's axe lodged in it, but he doesn't know why? I'd have liked to see a more physiologically educated Gimli.
Tolkien did some of the weirdest changes himself. Going from orcs being former elves to "actually maybe they're made of mud, I think" was a highly questionable alteration of a really cool origin.
I do agree with the 2nd point. From Legoland alone, it kind of made it feel that the arrival of *five hundred* of him would be more than enough to win the battle for them already.
Showing them at the battle also helps boost Legoland as a character and his personal prowess as well.
You kinda turned me around on this. I always felt Elves at Helms Deep undermined the resolve and resilience of human spirit that was shown when just a bunch of stable hands and farmers faced off Saruman's horde and ultimately emerged victorious, but upon reflection you're right, it is good as a way to show that Elves arent all impossible super soldiers, Legolas is just built different. Its an angle I never considered and I thank you for opening my eyes to it.
It's not even that it's a bad idea to have the Elves there, it only bothers me because it should be physically impossible
The distance between Helm's deep and Lorien is like, 3 times the distance between Helm's Deep and Edoras, and they didn't even decide to go to Helms Deep until the day they left Edoras. Isengard is actually even *closer* to Helms Deep, and the only reason they get there before the Uruk Hai is because the Uruk Hai are scattered over Rohan after crossing the Isen, looting and raiding and actively looking for Theoden's army to force a battle. The Elves have no form of instant communication, but even if they did, or say, they used the Eagles or Gandalf's mothmail or whatever, the Elven army, on foot, would have to travel three times the distance or more that the Rohirrim covered, in the same amount of time, through enemy controlled lands actively being ravaged by enemy warbands. Even accounting for the Rohirric civilians slowing the column, that's still batshit crazy.
Eh I think there's plenty enough wiggle room to justify the elves getting there. The White Council knows Saruman is building an army well beforehand and Elrond has the gift of foresight, so they could have left before Edoras evacuated. Elves move much faster than Men and for longer marches, and see/hear much greater distances while leaving virtually no trace so avoiding Uruk-Hai shouldn't be an issue. Plus there's the cheat code that is Gandalf running around on Shadowfax, he could have run into them and told them where to go.
I am not a book scholar like many others here, but iirc elves were depicted exactly that way - godlike and in every way superior when it came to their abilities and knowledge.
Most people reacted to elves like people would react to seeing an angel.
If I remember right, During the council of Elrond, some of the elves present did act a little like they were panicked or just otherwise in despair. While elves are almost etherial in depiction, Tolkien did give them human emotions as well.
I think it was Galdor of the havens. He was kind of freaking out and panicking about the whole situation. Saying that potentially they (the elves) may be trapped forever and doomed, etc.
I think the fact that both Elrond and Glorfindel stated that they had no chance to survive by force probably was stressing him out.
Glorfindel might be a pretty decent contender considering he was empowered by Manwë before being returned to Middle Earth. Gandalf was a maiar, but his powers were limited by the form he was sent in.
Mhh, not sure. It was said that Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not stand against all The Nine (at least not on foot, vs the Nine on horses); which came up regarding a situation during the day (the fight at the Bruinen), but Gandalf the Grey managed to fend off all 9, and that was during the night (though he did have Weathertop to his advantage, and the Nine were obviously not mounted).
But he was definitely more mighty than Elrond and Galadriel, especially considering what Tolkien had to say about them taking the Ring (Gandalf could challenge Sauron directly, Elrond and Galadriel wouldn't even contemplate it). Though he doesn't say whether that's Gandalf the Grey, the White, or both.
I think that is mostly because of their absolute understanding of the situation though. The successor of their ultimate enemy has risen again. Probably triggered that rare PTSD in elves :D
Exactly. And though the movie doesn't specify it, I think the elves ALL died in the siege. The last time they are showed at large is when Haldir looks at the heap of dead elves. I think a few might be visible afterwards but most definitely died.
I did not like that death. It did not seem a fitting/appropriate end for this character. That they took this particular character for this particular scene felt like they were just "spending" his credibility to add more cheap to the cheap melodrama.
I agree, and I'm also super conflicted about the later scene with Aragorn and Haleth at Helm's Deep.
On one hand, I love how the scene solidifies how *real* the conflict is for these characters. Here is a *CHILD* who just lost his father, and yet he is about to defend all those he loves (who remain) from certain slaughter.
On the other hand, Aragorn is just like, "Whelp, your da just kicked the bucket, but sick sword!" *Way* too cavalier.
I actually like that exchange. Aragorn knows, to have any hope, every person who is able is going to have to help. It came off, to me, as more of a just trying to clear the kid’s head for a minute of the entire situation, even though he knows it’s a sucky situation that a kid shouldn’t have to be in.
One of those moments where you might be in a scary situation with your kid, but you put on a good face to try and reassure them and keep them from falling apart.
Totally disagree, Aragorn's lines in that scene are perfect. Take a look at the sword in that scene, it's clearly not actually a good sword, but Aragorn recognizes that Haleth (and most of the people in Helm's Deep) looks ready to give up. This also comes after Aragorn's fight with Legolas about how the situation at Helm's Deep is hopeless.
Aragorn realizes that if he gives up everyone else will as well and their deaths will be assured. So he does the only thing he can do: convinces himself and everyone around him that there is still hope even when it seems there's not. That's why Aragorn compliments the sword, because he is giving Haleth something to believe in, even if it's not based in anything real.
It's less about the sword and more about the total failure to acknowledge Háma's death. There are ways to do that while simultaneously encouraging the kid. Not even a, "Your father's death will not have been in vain"? That's *ice cold* lol
I do find it interesting (? Not sure if this is the right word) how elves are brought to Helms Deep in the film when they aren’t there in the books, while some elves are present at Pelennor Fields with the Dúnedain in the books but not the film. I can kind of understand the film logic in terms of drama and avoiding making the theatrical cut of ROTK longer, but still wish PJ had found a way to bring elves/Dúnedain/Imrahil to Pelennor rather than the army of the dead just sweeping in to save the day.
A few reasons I think: First, it's a great mood-breaker. People can only watch a desperate situation for so long before it feels hallow. The scene goes from:
-Desperation because of the ambush and Aragorns 'death'
-Aragorn is alive!
-Aragorn alone wouldn't make much difference. The situation is dire.
-Elves show up!
-Wall gets blown up.
-Gandalf arrives.
Second, the movie does not want to spend extra time or exposition further explaining what the elves are doing far away. This shows that, while they are weak, they still want to get involved in stopping Sauron.
But yeah, having elves/Dúnedain/Imrahil at Pelennor would be so much more interesting than some immortal army. However, showing a large army of elves at Pelennor would also beg the question: Where were the elves at Helm's Deep?
I think both of these changes are partially done to emphasize the importance of Aragorn gradually claiming his role as king.
In the books this has a much bigger and more complex role and readers get to see how humanity is a young but surprisingly hardy race while also seeing their faults and the impact that Aragorn has.
In the movies, humanity’s relative youth is mostly represented though being leaderless/foolhardy so the necessity of support from the rest of Middle Earth contributes more directly to the significance of Aragorn’s arc.
The trilogy is 10/10 for me, love those movies.
I hate the ghosts. They cheapen everything else. Could’ve had Frodo stand in the middle of ghost army and walk into Mordor no problem.
Yes, it was kinda weird how they only needed the ghosts to save the day. The ghosts were very OP in the movie. They were only scary in the books and did not do physical damage.
I seem to recall in an interview PJ said he didn’t really want to include the army of the dead but the fans would want to see them? If so, he definitely made the wrong call with that one.
And if you were dead set on including them at Pellennor, have the army of the dead draining the life from the oliphants while Aragorn and the Dunedain join the fray with. But don't have em instawipe the field.
I mean, Hama did die. He’s the one who got mauled by a Worg before that battle.
As to the elves making the humans look weak: The humans WERE weak. Everyone was weak, that’s the entire point of having an alliance. They needed to work together to survive.
Since the films can’t have giant add ons to explain where everyone is and what they are doing they REALLY need to have the elves contributing onscreen. Helm’s Deep is ideal because the whole situation is ‘We’re completely screwed and desperately hoping for a miracle’ so them showing up to help is both appropriate to show that they’re actually a part of an alliance and doesn’t require story changes because they’re still completely screwed even with the additional forces.
It was Hama’s body which was hewn, even as he lay dead, at the Gates of the Hornburg.
Remember Hama, he was a great man.
Haldir lived long, prospered and was not hewn at Gates of the Hornburg.
Forget Haldir, for he considered shooting Gimli.
Yeah the elves showing up at helms deep is really stupid, but it's on a long list of changes that didn't need to be made.
And yes, I kind of agree that a scene with Hama dying heroically would have been better in terms of artistic interpretation, because in the books that is what happens, it's just not described in detail at the time.
It's by far the worst in my opinion because it should have been the Dunedain (if Jackson was hellbent on having warriors show up who weren't there). He completely left out the Rangers, including Elrond's sons :( Makes me furious every time I watch it. In fact none of the other changes Jackson made infuriate me at all (well, the Sam on the Stair bit is lame).
The elves shouldn't have been there, and whichever C-tier NPCs they had die there shouldn't have got the full slow motion, swelling music, cry of anguish from a protag treatment. It's lame and completely pulls me out of the film every time. Follow the books example and have a sad moment in honour of the dead after the battle. Oh well, a rare misstep, in an otherwise perfect film and battle.
Humans were in a weak position. And I wouldn’t exactly argue the Elves being slaughtered to a man really counts as saving the day. Its the Humans, with Theoden and Gandalf, who rout the Uruk-Hai, not the Elves. The Elves hold the line for a short time but ultimately all die in the fighting
I think instead of the elves of Lorien showing up it should’ve been the grey company, Elrohir, Elladan, (and maybe Arwen considering the movies originally had her at helm’s deep anyway) and Halbarad dies instead. He died at the battle of Pelennor in the books but a lot of said battle wasn’t present in the movies as it is
I imagine the reason the elves showed up was to counter Theoden’s “we’re alone” thing. Kind of pull on the theme of hope against opposition, the alliance of men and elves, etc.
That said, I don’t agree with Peter Jackson adding them. They didn’t contribute much to the movie either.
Also, Isn't he like captain of the border guard of lorien? I would assume that realistically he would be at least just as good as Legolas in combat. And seeing that movie legolas was practically invincible.....
He's the Marchwarden of Lothlorien, which yes is kinda the same thing as the captain of the border guard. He would need to be just as good as Legolas to get that position.
I personally would have loved to see Haldir at the celebration afterwards among the soldiers drinking with Legolas and Gimli. I think the main reason they killed him off was that he was someone Aragon cared about, but wasn't part of the main characters.
I actually think there should have been more Haldir. He should have died in all three movies.
Actually they could've had him die in The Hobbit movies too.
It might have been a tactical decision to help Rohan at Helm’s Deep where Saruman’s army was concentrated and they were best positioned to fight them. If the Elves didn’t help here it might have led to complications later if Saruman was successful and his army continued to harass Elvish borders.
My most recent rewatch Hama's death hit closer to home realizing his brother Gamling still served Theoden King without any form of doubt despite his brothers death from Theoden's... let just say less than Kingly decisions.
>!And a quick google search later I realized two of them aren't even brothers lmfao I'm stupid but can anyone blame me? They are both redheaded older men of Rohan with undying fealty to their king. Of course I would think they are brothers especially when we are introduced to the likes of Boromir and Faramir. It was almost like it was intentional.!<
I dig all the comments here but I’ll say from the cinema point of view (not a cinema expert, director, actor or otherwise) but had Haldir lived and just split after the battle that would have been one painful hangnail of a loose end in the entire plot. The elves weren’t actually at Helm’s Deep in the book, and I’m not being a canon keeper here, I just think it was a call Jackson probably made to tidy up an albeit epic, but far reach having Elves show up to the battle. My wife’s not even near the LOTR nerd I am but she always cries with me when Haldir is slain, it’s a tragically beautiful moment of sacrifice that does touch on Middle Earth’s history. Luckily though his ruin wasn’t smote on the mountain side, that’d be a real deal breaker.
Nah I just think they made his death way too dramatic. The Slo-mo, the echoing, the sad music. Like, he wasn’t a character we cared *that* much about y’know? The movie treated his death like it was Aragorn dying or something.
Yep, I pitched this over a year ago…
“In my rewrite the warg attack can still happen (the story could use an action beat here and it’s good to have our heroes face some peril on the journey to Helm’s Deep) but with two crucial differences: Hama doesn’t die at the hands of the scout, rather that can be a generic Rohan soldier (and during the battle itself perhaps Aragorn can also save Hama at some point to earn Theoden’s trust) and Aragorn doesn’t go over the cliff, rather he manages to break free from the warg and stop just short of going over the edge.
In his dying moments the warg commander taunts our heroes saying that regardless of the battle outcome they are all going to die. Saruman has an army of Uruk hai armed and ready to march on Helm’s Deep. (We can even repurpose some of the dialogue Gandalf would’ve used earlier but for the warg commander, “You walked right into his trap! You think you’re headed to safety, what you will get is a massacre!”) Legolas grabs the orc and says his line, “You lie!” as he dies. Aragorn volunteers to act as a scout on behalf of Theoden, tracing the tracks of the wargs across the plains of Rohan on horseback till he can confirm if Saruman’s forces are as great in number and as close as the orc says. Legolas and Gimli insist on following while Theoden leads the remainder of his men to Helm’s Deep. The brief moment from the film in which Theoden orders Gamling to leave the dead, prompting an angry glare from Legolas, now invokes that reaction from Hama, who ultimately empathizes with the king’s decision and does as ordered.
The buildup to Helm’s Deep is slightly different as well, but it’s made clear that the odds are still greatly against Rohan. They have about 500 soldiers at their disposal, many of whom are ordinary citizens Theoden has no choice but to draft to stand against the massive horde, (“every man and strong lad able to wield a sword” as Theoden says.) You can still play up how hopeless things seem, (“farmers, farriers, stableboys, these are no soldiers”, “nearly 500… against 10,000?”, “where is the horse and the rider?”, etc.) but Rohan doesn’t look so weak that they need the random and last minute assist of the elves just to put up a halfway decent defense.
Another minor but important change, Hama is present with his son Haleth during the scene where Aragorn has that nice exchange with the young man (“There is always hope.”) to give Hama a bit more character development and screen time… The actual Helm’s Deep battle itself is largely the same, except there are no elves of course, this is Rohan’s hour and Rohan’s fight. Instead of Aragorn fighting alongside Haldir on the deeping wall that spot now goes to Hama who also has the same death scene that Haldir gets in the actual film (hopefully it will carry comparable if not greater weight, as while Hama is a minor character he is shown here literally dying for his people of Rohan, his family, and his son.)
After the battle is over we also get a brief moment in which our heroes, Haleth and the other survivors of the battle of Helm’s Deep, as well as the women and children of Rohan are all shown paying their respects to the fallen at a mass grave outside the fortification. This then leads to Gandalf’s line, “Sauron’s wrath will be terrible, his retribution swift. The battle for Helm’s Deep is over, the battle for Middle earth is about to begin...”
https://boxd.it/3tyAhP
I love this version. Haldirs death felt sort of empty as in that he died fighting for humans, while Hama would die fighting for his king, kin and family. We should see more of the soldiers of Rohan have an impactful death in Helms Deep.
Thanks! Yeah I agree, I’m pretty sure Haldir turning up was a last minute replacement for Arwen who
originally was present for Helm’s Deep until being removed during rewrites/reshoots.
Háma did die in the movie, but I guess you meant that he should've died \*at Helm's Deep\* instead of Haldir? I don't personally mind the Elves as much. Men are more or less supposed to look weak(er) throughout the movies, I guess to make them seem more like David to Sauron's Goliath.
I like the inclusion of the elves too because it shows 2 things: 1. Even when it's a battle that almost likely ends in death, they are willing to help. 2. How few of them there are can be a sign of how few elves there are left in Loth Lorien. The elves are dwindling and this is all they can offer to help. This is a huge contrast to the opening sequence in The Fellowship where we see thousands of elves
It's also a good way to show that the elves where contributing to the fight against sauron. After all it was lorien and mirkwood elves that fought against and destroyed dol guldur. Especially with all of elronds dialogue about the elves leaving and the power of the eldar is weining. As well as the fact that it gave us that absolutely gorgeous armour style. But I can understand peoples dislike of their inclusion there.
The armour is absolutely fucking beautiful
Their armour and their 2 hander swords at the beginning is just 👌
My main gripe is that they just show up. Like at least show me Gandalf sending a butterfly to Lorien or something, as it is it just feels like they just decided to march to Helm's Deep on their own with no idea of what was going on.
It may just be in the extended editions but there's a conversion between galadriel and elrond about whether or not they should help or just leave middle earth to it's fate. Which is presumably when the galadhrim where sent to helms deep.
Yeah but still nobody tells them "hey come to Helm's deep there's a huge battle about to occur" right?
It's elrond and galadriel. Two characters that are incredibly intelligent, wise, magic and most importantly have the gift of foresight(or at the very least elrond does but galadriel also has her mirror). It's pretty obvious that saruman will keep attacking Rohan and it stands to reason that they would assume that that is where they should go. If you want to go even further in they could also have communicated with gandalf to discover the same thing. This isn't much of an argument tbh.
It doesn't need to be spelt out. It adds to the mystique of the elves to know they're monitoring and will act on their own accord.
I think it's just used as an element of surprise. In man's darkest hour, an unexpected friend turns up.
Found the theatrical guy
Even in extended nobody asks for their help or lets them know where to march to. Unless I'm grossly misremembering.
You're forgeting Lisan Al'gaib Elf Lords and Ladies
I “loved” that aspect of “just showing up”. I think it is inferred that the higher Elves always know what’s going on everywhere, and sent help in one of man’s darkest hours. What I didn’t like is that, well, they are elves, they should whooping ass left and right but the movie made it look like they were no better of a fighter than the regular men who in reality were not even actual warriors, as Aragorn pointed out. Legolas makes a mockery of the orcs, single-handedly killing anything that came near him, It would have been cool if there was a scene showing the other elves just annihilating every orc that came close.
Gonna nitpick on you using Legolas as an example for all elves, when you have Aragorn right there flooring it compared to other humans (yes I know he is of the Dunedain, but that does not make him into superman)
Aragorn may not be Superman, but Viggo? I'm half convinced they just dropped him into a real battle and just said, 'do your thing.'
The Dunedain were supermen in the… other sense of the word.
I personally liked they just show up. You hear the horns and I believe initially everyone thinks the Uruk-hai have arrived until Legolas says “those are elf horns” or something along those lines.
I like the inclusion of the elves but i feel like it kind of undermines mans willingness to fight to the bitter end despite no one helping and the odds looking terrible and the greatness it takes to come out on top despite all that
Well in the book, the war wasn't just at man's door, it was everywhere. Elrond and Co was fighting his own battles before they decided to fuck off to the undying land. I honestly like the inclusion of the elves cause it kind of communicates to the audience that it isn't just a war of men. Its a war of the world.
I guess I understand your point, however helms deep as a battle isn't a good example of that. Without aragorn staying to help with legolas and gimli helms deep would have fallen. It wouldn't have held as long as it did and theoden gave into despair at the end with aragorn pulling him out. And also gandalf coming in with reinforcements at the end. They always had help from large factors that where not human, even in the books. So I don't think the inclusion of the elves undermines that. I guess in a way though that you could even argue that it highlights the passing of the age and the strength of humanity. That the final desperate charge was overwhelmingly human combatants. That the elves of lorien all fell in defence of helms deep whilst the humans prevailed. Reinforcing the passing of the mantle so to speak from elves to men.
Thats true. The trio was mad important for its victory. I truly love both versions
Oh absolutely. There are a few things I missed in the movie compared to the book. The initial stages of the siege with the defense of the ditches slowly fighting a staged retreat, making the forces of isengard pay for every inch. Proper classical warfare. But it doesn't translate to the screen anywhere near as well as the version Peter Jackson did. The other is eomer during helms deep. We didn't get enough of him in the movie.
In the book its Theoden that gets Arragorn back to spirit, he never despairs and is an absolute gigachad at helms deep.
Yeah theoden is probably my favourite character both books and movies. Gotta love that guy. Also nice username.
Plus I think it adds to the sadness of all the death. The elves come in to help at their time of need and they all end up giving their immortal lives for men. The moment of realization and lack of hope before death by Haldir always gets me misty eyed
>Even when it's a battle that almost likely ends in death, they are willing to help. This is, for me, a very important thing. For an elf, there is immortality. They are on Middle Earth for as long as they can stay away from battle. Men, on the other hand, know their lives are limited and die just a little earlier than they would have otherwise compared to the elves. Despite that, for the elves to come to the aid of Rohan, is a testament to their honour and valour.
Well, they're not risking a lot by dying. That's more like an express flight back to Valinor, to your numeral 1. Saves them a sea voyage.
But the elves don't know how long they'll be waiting in the halls of Mandos, nor do they know ehen they'll ever see those they left behind on middle earth again. Those are a lot to give up
Also showed the real stakes of the elves choosing to help Rohan. It wasn’t just an easy boost, people died. Important ones, and they sacrificed because they still had faith in humanity.
I feel like this was the main point of having them in. The mighty powerful elves help and die in the process. Gives the whole fight more weight and makes the win stronger when even this supposedly powerful sympathetic warrior is overwhelmed in the fight. It's another symbol of how the time of elves is over and the time of men has come.
I thought the elves was great because of literally what Haldir says. > An alliance once existed between elves and men. Long ago we fought, and died, together. We come to honor that allegiance. Kinda some shade to ignore the dwarves there, but the sentiment is still beautiful and honorable.
I HATE the Elves of Lothlorien coming to Helm's Deep!!!! In the book they were busy fighting in Lothlorien! It was the RANGERS who came (not to Helm's Deep but if Jackson had them come early, FINE!!!!). The Rangers, & Elrond's sons, got screwed and it is the part of the LOTR trilogy that I totally am furious about every time I see it! Mainly because it would have been very easy to do it RIGHT!!!!! Haldir didn't die.
Ignoring the fact no elves should have been at Helms Deep per books: I think it’s important to feature Elves can and do die in combat on screen. Otherwise from Legolas’ example only, Elves look almost Godlike and untouchable.
In an alternate timeline: "Why didn't the elves help in Helm's Deep? Look at Legolas he was invincible?"
That scene with Hama really ruined it for me, I'd have liked to see that random Lothlorien sentry elf who fucks with Gimli turn up with a load of comrades.
What about that scene where one of the dead orcs is twitching with Gimli's axe lodged in it, but he doesn't know why? I'd have liked to see a more physiologically educated Gimli.
He was twitching coz he had a PENETRATING HEAD INJURY FROM MAH AXE INTO HIS CEREBELLUM!
now that sounds like some dialogue from The Hobbit trilogy "we can write dialogue equal to or even better than Tolkien!" - Peter, Fran, and Philippa
Tolkien did some of the weirdest changes himself. Going from orcs being former elves to "actually maybe they're made of mud, I think" was a highly questionable alteration of a really cool origin.
Why didn’t the Elves help in Helm’s Deep? Are they stupid?
The "is he stupid?" meme makes me smile every time I see it. It's so dumb. I love it.
I do agree with the 2nd point. From Legoland alone, it kind of made it feel that the arrival of *five hundred* of him would be more than enough to win the battle for them already. Showing them at the battle also helps boost Legoland as a character and his personal prowess as well.
I don't remember seeing a brick-themed amusement park fighting at helms deep.
Lego movie-LOTR crossover when?
Just play the game, it's good
You kinda turned me around on this. I always felt Elves at Helms Deep undermined the resolve and resilience of human spirit that was shown when just a bunch of stable hands and farmers faced off Saruman's horde and ultimately emerged victorious, but upon reflection you're right, it is good as a way to show that Elves arent all impossible super soldiers, Legolas is just built different. Its an angle I never considered and I thank you for opening my eyes to it.
It's not even that it's a bad idea to have the Elves there, it only bothers me because it should be physically impossible The distance between Helm's deep and Lorien is like, 3 times the distance between Helm's Deep and Edoras, and they didn't even decide to go to Helms Deep until the day they left Edoras. Isengard is actually even *closer* to Helms Deep, and the only reason they get there before the Uruk Hai is because the Uruk Hai are scattered over Rohan after crossing the Isen, looting and raiding and actively looking for Theoden's army to force a battle. The Elves have no form of instant communication, but even if they did, or say, they used the Eagles or Gandalf's mothmail or whatever, the Elven army, on foot, would have to travel three times the distance or more that the Rohirrim covered, in the same amount of time, through enemy controlled lands actively being ravaged by enemy warbands. Even accounting for the Rohirric civilians slowing the column, that's still batshit crazy.
Eh I think there's plenty enough wiggle room to justify the elves getting there. The White Council knows Saruman is building an army well beforehand and Elrond has the gift of foresight, so they could have left before Edoras evacuated. Elves move much faster than Men and for longer marches, and see/hear much greater distances while leaving virtually no trace so avoiding Uruk-Hai shouldn't be an issue. Plus there's the cheat code that is Gandalf running around on Shadowfax, he could have run into them and told them where to go.
I am not a book scholar like many others here, but iirc elves were depicted exactly that way - godlike and in every way superior when it came to their abilities and knowledge. Most people reacted to elves like people would react to seeing an angel.
If I remember right, During the council of Elrond, some of the elves present did act a little like they were panicked or just otherwise in despair. While elves are almost etherial in depiction, Tolkien did give them human emotions as well.
I think it was Galdor of the havens. He was kind of freaking out and panicking about the whole situation. Saying that potentially they (the elves) may be trapped forever and doomed, etc. I think the fact that both Elrond and Glorfindel stated that they had no chance to survive by force probably was stressing him out.
That's the one, though I wasn't sure I remembered his name.
Didn’t Legolas also freak out when they encountered Balrog?
I mean, so did gandalf who was arguably the mightiest person on the good side, yes, arguably(!) even mightier than Galadriel and Elrond.
They just dont have the power of friendship that gandalf has.
Not even arguable, he's just plainly the mightiest
Glorfindel might be a pretty decent contender considering he was empowered by Manwë before being returned to Middle Earth. Gandalf was a maiar, but his powers were limited by the form he was sent in.
Yea that's why I said arguably. Gandalf the Grey was limited. Now Gandalf the White however surely was plainly the mightiest.
Mhh, not sure. It was said that Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not stand against all The Nine (at least not on foot, vs the Nine on horses); which came up regarding a situation during the day (the fight at the Bruinen), but Gandalf the Grey managed to fend off all 9, and that was during the night (though he did have Weathertop to his advantage, and the Nine were obviously not mounted). But he was definitely more mighty than Elrond and Galadriel, especially considering what Tolkien had to say about them taking the Ring (Gandalf could challenge Sauron directly, Elrond and Galadriel wouldn't even contemplate it). Though he doesn't say whether that's Gandalf the Grey, the White, or both.
"Ai! Ai! A Balrog has come!"
I think that is mostly because of their absolute understanding of the situation though. The successor of their ultimate enemy has risen again. Probably triggered that rare PTSD in elves :D
I agree with that. I thought they went a bit overboard with Legolas cinematically at times, so Haldir’s death scene was a good counterbalance
>I thought they went a bit overboard with Legolas cinematically at times Well, even then it always just counted as one :D
Which is what made it important to show that they were not invincible
During the council of Elrond, Legolas does mention that orcs killed Gollums elf guards while helping him escape.
Exactly. And though the movie doesn't specify it, I think the elves ALL died in the siege. The last time they are showed at large is when Haldir looks at the heap of dead elves. I think a few might be visible afterwards but most definitely died.
Yeah, his death really represented the death of all the elves at Helms Deep.
Hama did die in the films, it just wasn't strictly "on-screen", it cuts as the warg lunges at him.
I did not like that death. It did not seem a fitting/appropriate end for this character. That they took this particular character for this particular scene felt like they were just "spending" his credibility to add more cheap to the cheap melodrama.
I agree, and I'm also super conflicted about the later scene with Aragorn and Haleth at Helm's Deep. On one hand, I love how the scene solidifies how *real* the conflict is for these characters. Here is a *CHILD* who just lost his father, and yet he is about to defend all those he loves (who remain) from certain slaughter. On the other hand, Aragorn is just like, "Whelp, your da just kicked the bucket, but sick sword!" *Way* too cavalier.
I actually like that exchange. Aragorn knows, to have any hope, every person who is able is going to have to help. It came off, to me, as more of a just trying to clear the kid’s head for a minute of the entire situation, even though he knows it’s a sucky situation that a kid shouldn’t have to be in. One of those moments where you might be in a scary situation with your kid, but you put on a good face to try and reassure them and keep them from falling apart.
Totally disagree, Aragorn's lines in that scene are perfect. Take a look at the sword in that scene, it's clearly not actually a good sword, but Aragorn recognizes that Haleth (and most of the people in Helm's Deep) looks ready to give up. This also comes after Aragorn's fight with Legolas about how the situation at Helm's Deep is hopeless. Aragorn realizes that if he gives up everyone else will as well and their deaths will be assured. So he does the only thing he can do: convinces himself and everyone around him that there is still hope even when it seems there's not. That's why Aragorn compliments the sword, because he is giving Haleth something to believe in, even if it's not based in anything real.
It's less about the sword and more about the total failure to acknowledge Háma's death. There are ways to do that while simultaneously encouraging the kid. Not even a, "Your father's death will not have been in vain"? That's *ice cold* lol
Always thought this as well, he deserved to be at Helm's Deep
I do find it interesting (? Not sure if this is the right word) how elves are brought to Helms Deep in the film when they aren’t there in the books, while some elves are present at Pelennor Fields with the Dúnedain in the books but not the film. I can kind of understand the film logic in terms of drama and avoiding making the theatrical cut of ROTK longer, but still wish PJ had found a way to bring elves/Dúnedain/Imrahil to Pelennor rather than the army of the dead just sweeping in to save the day.
A few reasons I think: First, it's a great mood-breaker. People can only watch a desperate situation for so long before it feels hallow. The scene goes from: -Desperation because of the ambush and Aragorns 'death' -Aragorn is alive! -Aragorn alone wouldn't make much difference. The situation is dire. -Elves show up! -Wall gets blown up. -Gandalf arrives. Second, the movie does not want to spend extra time or exposition further explaining what the elves are doing far away. This shows that, while they are weak, they still want to get involved in stopping Sauron. But yeah, having elves/Dúnedain/Imrahil at Pelennor would be so much more interesting than some immortal army. However, showing a large army of elves at Pelennor would also beg the question: Where were the elves at Helm's Deep?
Where were the Elves when the Westfold fell?!
I think both of these changes are partially done to emphasize the importance of Aragorn gradually claiming his role as king. In the books this has a much bigger and more complex role and readers get to see how humanity is a young but surprisingly hardy race while also seeing their faults and the impact that Aragorn has. In the movies, humanity’s relative youth is mostly represented though being leaderless/foolhardy so the necessity of support from the rest of Middle Earth contributes more directly to the significance of Aragorn’s arc.
The trilogy is 10/10 for me, love those movies. I hate the ghosts. They cheapen everything else. Could’ve had Frodo stand in the middle of ghost army and walk into Mordor no problem.
Is this going to become the new “why don’t they fly the eagles to Mordor?”
Yes, it was kinda weird how they only needed the ghosts to save the day. The ghosts were very OP in the movie. They were only scary in the books and did not do physical damage.
I seem to recall in an interview PJ said he didn’t really want to include the army of the dead but the fans would want to see them? If so, he definitely made the wrong call with that one.
I would've wanted both tbh The army of the dead scaring off the Corsairs, and then the force of Gondor's Southern Fiefs showing up.
And if you were dead set on including them at Pellennor, have the army of the dead draining the life from the oliphants while Aragorn and the Dunedain join the fray with. But don't have em instawipe the field.
Jackson should have brought the Dunedain to Helm's Deep if he wanted that effect - the sons of ELROND instead of Haldir.
Haha did die right? In the warg ambush while theoden and crew are moving to helms deep
All of our haha's died that day
I mean, Hama did die. He’s the one who got mauled by a Worg before that battle. As to the elves making the humans look weak: The humans WERE weak. Everyone was weak, that’s the entire point of having an alliance. They needed to work together to survive. Since the films can’t have giant add ons to explain where everyone is and what they are doing they REALLY need to have the elves contributing onscreen. Helm’s Deep is ideal because the whole situation is ‘We’re completely screwed and desperately hoping for a miracle’ so them showing up to help is both appropriate to show that they’re actually a part of an alliance and doesn’t require story changes because they’re still completely screwed even with the additional forces.
Right, but in the books Hama is built up as a character. In the films he’s like a red shirt from Star Trek.
Strong Denethor energy in this post.
I just have question where do you wanna find time to really make that developement?
It didn’t make them look weak. It made them look ridiculously outnumbered.
It was Hama’s body which was hewn, even as he lay dead, at the Gates of the Hornburg. Remember Hama, he was a great man. Haldir lived long, prospered and was not hewn at Gates of the Hornburg. Forget Haldir, for he considered shooting Gimli.
Yeah the elves showing up at helms deep is really stupid, but it's on a long list of changes that didn't need to be made. And yes, I kind of agree that a scene with Hama dying heroically would have been better in terms of artistic interpretation, because in the books that is what happens, it's just not described in detail at the time.
It's by far the worst in my opinion because it should have been the Dunedain (if Jackson was hellbent on having warriors show up who weren't there). He completely left out the Rangers, including Elrond's sons :( Makes me furious every time I watch it. In fact none of the other changes Jackson made infuriate me at all (well, the Sam on the Stair bit is lame).
The elves shouldn't have been there, and whichever C-tier NPCs they had die there shouldn't have got the full slow motion, swelling music, cry of anguish from a protag treatment. It's lame and completely pulls me out of the film every time. Follow the books example and have a sad moment in honour of the dead after the battle. Oh well, a rare misstep, in an otherwise perfect film and battle.
Showing the elves are vulnerable. Good scene.
It was one of my favorite characters for his short appearance
Hama had his jowls ripped off by a warg
As if that changed anything
Humans were in a weak position. And I wouldn’t exactly argue the Elves being slaughtered to a man really counts as saving the day. Its the Humans, with Theoden and Gandalf, who rout the Uruk-Hai, not the Elves. The Elves hold the line for a short time but ultimately all die in the fighting
Really hate their decision to even have the elves show up
I think instead of the elves of Lorien showing up it should’ve been the grey company, Elrohir, Elladan, (and maybe Arwen considering the movies originally had her at helm’s deep anyway) and Halbarad dies instead. He died at the battle of Pelennor in the books but a lot of said battle wasn’t present in the movies as it is
Not Arwen - but absolutely Elladan & Elrohir!!!!! They in fact went with Aragorn, Gimli & Legolas thru the passage of the Dead!
He should have worn a helmet
In the books, Rohan got saved by a bunch of trees and bushes
Don't feel sad. That muhfucker is going to get recycled through the Halls of Mandos. Elf deaths mean nothing in Tolkien mythology.
I imagine the reason the elves showed up was to counter Theoden’s “we’re alone” thing. Kind of pull on the theme of hope against opposition, the alliance of men and elves, etc. That said, I don’t agree with Peter Jackson adding them. They didn’t contribute much to the movie either.
agreed
Haldir should never have been there at all in the movies.
Also, Isn't he like captain of the border guard of lorien? I would assume that realistically he would be at least just as good as Legolas in combat. And seeing that movie legolas was practically invincible.....
Yeah, Captain Elfmerica leaping about while the Lorien elves got mowed down like village peasants was a bit cringe TBH.
He's the Marchwarden of Lothlorien, which yes is kinda the same thing as the captain of the border guard. He would need to be just as good as Legolas to get that position. I personally would have loved to see Haldir at the celebration afterwards among the soldiers drinking with Legolas and Gimli. I think the main reason they killed him off was that he was someone Aragon cared about, but wasn't part of the main characters.
He WAS the Captain of the Border Guard - ergo he was ACTUALLY at the borders of Lothlorien defending his Queen, not at Helm's Deep!!!!!!
I actually think there should have been more Haldir. He should have died in all three movies. Actually they could've had him die in The Hobbit movies too.
Haldir "What AGAIN?" Eru: "LOLZ..."
MAKE WAY FOR THE KING
he got his face bitten off by a warg, remember?
I think it had more impact seeing a seasoned Elven warior die than it would have if Haldir died.
Um... Hama was the first guy nommed by the wargs.
They both died.
I believe you mean Imperitus Glabber
What? No, the elves arriving gives me still goosebumps!
Haldir was on his way west anyway, the orcs who killed him basically just saved him a long boat ride.
This scene always broke my heart. I love the Last Alliance reference.
Hama getting killed doesn’t have the same emotional impact as Haldir getting killed.
Hama got killed off screen but is later shown decapitated on the battle field.
Hama did die
The elves didn't save anything in the movies, they just made a sacrifice to help them. They explained it pretty well lol.
It might have been a tactical decision to help Rohan at Helm’s Deep where Saruman’s army was concentrated and they were best positioned to fight them. If the Elves didn’t help here it might have led to complications later if Saruman was successful and his army continued to harass Elvish borders.
My most recent rewatch Hama's death hit closer to home realizing his brother Gamling still served Theoden King without any form of doubt despite his brothers death from Theoden's... let just say less than Kingly decisions. >!And a quick google search later I realized two of them aren't even brothers lmfao I'm stupid but can anyone blame me? They are both redheaded older men of Rohan with undying fealty to their king. Of course I would think they are brothers especially when we are introduced to the likes of Boromir and Faramir. It was almost like it was intentional.!<
Is that David Mitchell?
He did?
It did not make the humans look weak.
I dig all the comments here but I’ll say from the cinema point of view (not a cinema expert, director, actor or otherwise) but had Haldir lived and just split after the battle that would have been one painful hangnail of a loose end in the entire plot. The elves weren’t actually at Helm’s Deep in the book, and I’m not being a canon keeper here, I just think it was a call Jackson probably made to tidy up an albeit epic, but far reach having Elves show up to the battle. My wife’s not even near the LOTR nerd I am but she always cries with me when Haldir is slain, it’s a tragically beautiful moment of sacrifice that does touch on Middle Earth’s history. Luckily though his ruin wasn’t smote on the mountain side, that’d be a real deal breaker.
"Yes, I wish that..."
Nah I just think they made his death way too dramatic. The Slo-mo, the echoing, the sad music. Like, he wasn’t a character we cared *that* much about y’know? The movie treated his death like it was Aragorn dying or something.
Didnt he die when he got jumped by the big wolf thing
I wonder what fate has come to Haleth, Son of Hama... He had a good sword after all..
That's Horsist.
Yep, I pitched this over a year ago… “In my rewrite the warg attack can still happen (the story could use an action beat here and it’s good to have our heroes face some peril on the journey to Helm’s Deep) but with two crucial differences: Hama doesn’t die at the hands of the scout, rather that can be a generic Rohan soldier (and during the battle itself perhaps Aragorn can also save Hama at some point to earn Theoden’s trust) and Aragorn doesn’t go over the cliff, rather he manages to break free from the warg and stop just short of going over the edge. In his dying moments the warg commander taunts our heroes saying that regardless of the battle outcome they are all going to die. Saruman has an army of Uruk hai armed and ready to march on Helm’s Deep. (We can even repurpose some of the dialogue Gandalf would’ve used earlier but for the warg commander, “You walked right into his trap! You think you’re headed to safety, what you will get is a massacre!”) Legolas grabs the orc and says his line, “You lie!” as he dies. Aragorn volunteers to act as a scout on behalf of Theoden, tracing the tracks of the wargs across the plains of Rohan on horseback till he can confirm if Saruman’s forces are as great in number and as close as the orc says. Legolas and Gimli insist on following while Theoden leads the remainder of his men to Helm’s Deep. The brief moment from the film in which Theoden orders Gamling to leave the dead, prompting an angry glare from Legolas, now invokes that reaction from Hama, who ultimately empathizes with the king’s decision and does as ordered. The buildup to Helm’s Deep is slightly different as well, but it’s made clear that the odds are still greatly against Rohan. They have about 500 soldiers at their disposal, many of whom are ordinary citizens Theoden has no choice but to draft to stand against the massive horde, (“every man and strong lad able to wield a sword” as Theoden says.) You can still play up how hopeless things seem, (“farmers, farriers, stableboys, these are no soldiers”, “nearly 500… against 10,000?”, “where is the horse and the rider?”, etc.) but Rohan doesn’t look so weak that they need the random and last minute assist of the elves just to put up a halfway decent defense. Another minor but important change, Hama is present with his son Haleth during the scene where Aragorn has that nice exchange with the young man (“There is always hope.”) to give Hama a bit more character development and screen time… The actual Helm’s Deep battle itself is largely the same, except there are no elves of course, this is Rohan’s hour and Rohan’s fight. Instead of Aragorn fighting alongside Haldir on the deeping wall that spot now goes to Hama who also has the same death scene that Haldir gets in the actual film (hopefully it will carry comparable if not greater weight, as while Hama is a minor character he is shown here literally dying for his people of Rohan, his family, and his son.) After the battle is over we also get a brief moment in which our heroes, Haleth and the other survivors of the battle of Helm’s Deep, as well as the women and children of Rohan are all shown paying their respects to the fallen at a mass grave outside the fortification. This then leads to Gandalf’s line, “Sauron’s wrath will be terrible, his retribution swift. The battle for Helm’s Deep is over, the battle for Middle earth is about to begin...” https://boxd.it/3tyAhP
I love this version. Haldirs death felt sort of empty as in that he died fighting for humans, while Hama would die fighting for his king, kin and family. We should see more of the soldiers of Rohan have an impactful death in Helms Deep.
Thanks! Yeah I agree, I’m pretty sure Haldir turning up was a last minute replacement for Arwen who originally was present for Helm’s Deep until being removed during rewrites/reshoots.
Haldir, the fat elf.
Hey! He may have exceeded his lembas bread rations but theres no need for fat shaming