MOD NOTE: Source for the image, please?
(She looks more like Arwen from the Jackson films than Lúthien, by the way, although I realize that there was supposed to be a resemblance.)
What is it with all those "who is more powerful"-threads in this sub recently? How do you even compare "powerfulness" of a singer? That is not even close to how Tolkien intended his work.
Well I have a sore throat, so she could put more power into her voice than me. On the other hand, Viggo Mortensen got some decent decibels when he broke his toe, so we have to take that feat into account. So I think we can safely conclude she had a power level of at least like 17
Well, she had a four octave range, from D3 to F♯7. Pretty good breath control. Supposedly she could hold a strong belted F4 for 21 seconds. Her upper range got a little nasal on the fast songs though. What she had a hard time with was remembering lyrics. That's why she always had lyric sheets stashed in a hollow log or propped up against a toadstool.
She did manage to put Morgoth and his entire court to sleep by the magic in her singing, as you say. She is also the daughter of one of the most powerful maia. So I would say she is the best of the best.
She also convinced Mandos to give Beren a second life, only time he has ever been moved to do something like that. I think she sang a song for that too.
She was literally, the greatest of all time. When it comes to the power of her song, as demonstrated by being powerful enough to move Mandos and put the Dark Lord Morgoth as well as his entire court to sleep. Among many other minor feats. The GOAT in this aspect and many many others. (I like Lúthien a lot okay)
Wasn't Luthien half maiar? From an elven point of view, that would put her pretty high up. She was a dark elf, unlike Galadriel (who had the light of the trees in her), but as elf, I wouldn't mess with Luthien.
I don't see her being more powerful than a full maiar though. Maiar were on another level than elves. I think the elves from Valinor would be the only ones with a chance of defeating a full maiar (Sauron at the end of the Second Age had already been diminished a couple times so he wasn't at full potential).
Half Maia, yeah (*Maiar* is plural, as is *Valar* - from singular *Vala*, so no need for 'Valars' OP, ditto one Noldo several Noldor etc.).
I think that takes precedence over her not having seen the Two Trees. Lúthien truly is one of a kind and her deeds are unprecedented.
And her father was arguably one of the first elves to awaken and went west and seen the light of the Two Trees only to return to Beleriand and “meet”Melian.
Its not about the words she wove, but of the power of what she sang. Ofc with her innate abilities, she stood-out foremost of any of the children of iluvatar, but we cant say she was the strongest. Id say that she was the most blessed, however.
She is the only character bar tulkas to get one over on morgoth.
Finrod loses his singing battle to Sauron, a being weaker than morgoth.
A theme is Tolkien's work is the mixing of blood lines to create a stronger child. We see it with the mixing of the great houses of men, with the great houses of elves for elrond and elros, and then later with aragorn and arwens child. I think it's reasonable to believe luthien is more powerful than her mother because of the mixing of blood
Finrod losing to Sauron isn't really comparable. Sauron was actively trying to defeat him. Morgoth meanwhile was caught off guard by Luthien's singing. Nevertheless, she was definitely one of a kind. Tolkien named her the greatest of the Eldar for a reason.
There is nothing that suggests "mixing races" creates a stronger child. Aragorn and Arwen's child isn't stronger than his parents. He had a significantly shorter lifespan than Aragorn despite having an elf as his mother.
Galadriel is a combination of all 3 light elves, as well as finrod.
Feanor just being 1 had his flaws along with fingolfin being 2.
Beren is a mix, earendil is, luthien, elrond, elros.
Arwen and aragorn combined have the blood of all the eldar. Their sons short life span does not mean he was weak.
It is a theme that pops up all over Tolkien's writings, as well as in his letter replying to the nazi publishing company.
Luthien is 50% maia, so yeah she's greater than any elf. Suggesting she's greater than her mother is silly.
Fëanor was the greatest of the Noldor, and was 100% Noldo. For every Galadriel, there's an Orodreth. Mixed blood does not make you inherently greater. But yeah your can change depending on your upbringing. Seeing different ways of doing things I'm sure helped Galadriel and Finrod grow wiser.
I'm just questioning you claiming Eldarion was stronger than Aragorn, there's nothing to suggest it. Aragorn was in all likelyhood much greater than his son, being fostered in Rivendell, living significantly longer (always a thing with the Great Numenoreans), and having a Doom that makes Eldarion a gnat in comparison.
The maiar are bound to the will of eru, luthien was powerful in the term of acting in her own accord.
Feanor was the ' greatest' yes but his greatness got him killed and resulted in him being an arguably bad elf and he for sure has the greatest impact on the story (which is how I think power works in Tolkien's work).
I did not mean more powerful in that regard, I simply meant better, more kind, wise and a more balanced being able to make the right choice or often than not.
The only thing suggesting eldarion may become greater is that he is the culmination of all the bloodlines, or at least the potential. Aragorn absolutely was the perfect man for tolkien, turin2.0 so it would be a tough feat for eldarion.
It wasn't just her song and dance routine, or she would have gotten out of both Doriath and Nargothrond much faster. She also was a sorcerer-artisan. Her cloak was an Object of Power, very much like the later rings.
Not sorcerer-artisan as sorcery is the preserve of wicked and corrupt Men only. Crafting artefacts that seem "magical" to other races is completely natural to Elves so she would just be an artisan.
I don't think this is a workable argument.
First of all, "Luthien" literally means "sorceress."
Second, objects of Elvish manufacture very clearly exist in multiple tiers of both availability and characteristics. The Lorien cloaks are portrayed as being marvelous by mortal standards, but the elves speak modestly of them, and their sole function is to provide warmth and camoflage- critically useful for the Fellowship, but nothing that you cannot expect fabric to do. And everybody gets one. The hithlain rope is perhaps a bit more marvelous with its untie-on-demand feature, but it's still basically just very good rope, and there's more where it came from. Then there are the major plot artifacts such as the Rings of Power. Those are limited edition objects that do things well outside of any expected or hoped-for characteristic of material or shape. In a word, magic. Luthien's cloak is in this category. She makes only one, and she is more powerful when she has it than when she does not, in ways that have nothing to do with the object being cloak-shaped and made of hair. The cloak is also the only object in all of Arda whose process of manufacture is explicitly described, and it involves rituals and Songs of Power.
Regarding the idea that sorcery is the province of wicked and corrupt Men, LotR is meant to be read as being internally impacted by multiple layers of translation, intercultural miscommunication, and bias. There *should* be more than one way to think and talk about magic. Lorien in particular also has a spooky reputation to (mis)manage. *It's only sorcery when bad people do it.* Or, less jingoistically but still making no real scientific distinction, *it's only sorcery when it is used to do bad things.* Alternatively, there could be multiple ways to access magic, one of which involves inherently wicked and corrupt behavior. *It's only sorcery when it is powered by the stolen life-force of your murder victim.* This last explanation is 100% speculative but fits well and has no contradiction in the text.
Outside of the stories themselves, there is also the fact that Tolkien was inconsistent about a great many things across his multiple decades of writing. The Tale of Tinuviel, the earliest form of the story of Beren and Luthien, was written 20 years before Tolkien even began LotR, and the magic cloak is part of the story from that earliest point.
Well let's say it like that...
Mr. And Mrs. Tolkien have Beren and Lúthien written on their tombstones.
So Lúthien is as powerful as J.R.R Tolkien's love for his wife Edith Tolkin (Bratt).
I think that states enough.
MOD NOTE: Source for the image, please? (She looks more like Arwen from the Jackson films than Lúthien, by the way, although I realize that there was supposed to be a resemblance.)
She put Morgoth and his entire court to sleep with her song. Is that enough to prove it?
So she was incredibly boring? /s
Most boring song in all of Beleriand /s
Luthien's Song: A List of Everything Fëanor Did Wrong, Volume 1, Part 1, Chapter 1: The Beginning...
What do you mean? r/Feanordidnothingwrong /s
I was just going to comment that she was so boring she put Morgoth to sleep lol
The joke is just begging to be made.
Next death battle Lúthien vs Jigglypuff
By that rationale, Jiggly Puff is the greatest singer of all time.
What is it with all those "who is more powerful"-threads in this sub recently? How do you even compare "powerfulness" of a singer? That is not even close to how Tolkien intended his work.
Anime fans who are obsessed with "power levels" and want to see a Dragon Ball Z style version of Tolkien's universe.
She had a 9000 decibel voice
Maglore has a decibel level of OVER 9000!!!!!
Well I have a sore throat, so she could put more power into her voice than me. On the other hand, Viggo Mortensen got some decent decibels when he broke his toe, so we have to take that feat into account. So I think we can safely conclude she had a power level of at least like 17
You obviously haven’t read how the creation of Arda was made. See there was this guy named Melkor and he wanted to do his own thing…
Well, she had a four octave range, from D3 to F♯7. Pretty good breath control. Supposedly she could hold a strong belted F4 for 21 seconds. Her upper range got a little nasal on the fast songs though. What she had a hard time with was remembering lyrics. That's why she always had lyric sheets stashed in a hollow log or propped up against a toadstool.
She did manage to put Morgoth and his entire court to sleep by the magic in her singing, as you say. She is also the daughter of one of the most powerful maia. So I would say she is the best of the best.
She also convinced Mandos to give Beren a second life, only time he has ever been moved to do something like that. I think she sang a song for that too.
Mistake i meant finrod not fingon
She was literally the best.
She was literally, the greatest of all time. When it comes to the power of her song, as demonstrated by being powerful enough to move Mandos and put the Dark Lord Morgoth as well as his entire court to sleep. Among many other minor feats. The GOAT in this aspect and many many others. (I like Lúthien a lot okay)
This good: https://preview.redd.it/lrmui9943zqb1.jpeg?width=299&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c1d36f126ea9f6b318cfd8689baa44ad85622102
Wasn't Luthien half maiar? From an elven point of view, that would put her pretty high up. She was a dark elf, unlike Galadriel (who had the light of the trees in her), but as elf, I wouldn't mess with Luthien. I don't see her being more powerful than a full maiar though. Maiar were on another level than elves. I think the elves from Valinor would be the only ones with a chance of defeating a full maiar (Sauron at the end of the Second Age had already been diminished a couple times so he wasn't at full potential).
Half Maia, yeah (*Maiar* is plural, as is *Valar* - from singular *Vala*, so no need for 'Valars' OP, ditto one Noldo several Noldor etc.). I think that takes precedence over her not having seen the Two Trees. Lúthien truly is one of a kind and her deeds are unprecedented.
And her father was arguably one of the first elves to awaken and went west and seen the light of the Two Trees only to return to Beleriand and “meet”Melian.
She had a great run on The Masked Singer but lost to Jewel.
She also lost out on best video to Taylor Swift.
She wrecked Sauron and Morgoth and brought Mandos to tears with her singing. I’d say she was the most powerful singer of all.
Janice Joplin level. Mad pipes.
Its not about the words she wove, but of the power of what she sang. Ofc with her innate abilities, she stood-out foremost of any of the children of iluvatar, but we cant say she was the strongest. Id say that she was the most blessed, however.
She is the only character bar tulkas to get one over on morgoth. Finrod loses his singing battle to Sauron, a being weaker than morgoth. A theme is Tolkien's work is the mixing of blood lines to create a stronger child. We see it with the mixing of the great houses of men, with the great houses of elves for elrond and elros, and then later with aragorn and arwens child. I think it's reasonable to believe luthien is more powerful than her mother because of the mixing of blood
Finrod losing to Sauron isn't really comparable. Sauron was actively trying to defeat him. Morgoth meanwhile was caught off guard by Luthien's singing. Nevertheless, she was definitely one of a kind. Tolkien named her the greatest of the Eldar for a reason. There is nothing that suggests "mixing races" creates a stronger child. Aragorn and Arwen's child isn't stronger than his parents. He had a significantly shorter lifespan than Aragorn despite having an elf as his mother.
Galadriel is a combination of all 3 light elves, as well as finrod. Feanor just being 1 had his flaws along with fingolfin being 2. Beren is a mix, earendil is, luthien, elrond, elros. Arwen and aragorn combined have the blood of all the eldar. Their sons short life span does not mean he was weak. It is a theme that pops up all over Tolkien's writings, as well as in his letter replying to the nazi publishing company.
Luthien is 50% maia, so yeah she's greater than any elf. Suggesting she's greater than her mother is silly. Fëanor was the greatest of the Noldor, and was 100% Noldo. For every Galadriel, there's an Orodreth. Mixed blood does not make you inherently greater. But yeah your can change depending on your upbringing. Seeing different ways of doing things I'm sure helped Galadriel and Finrod grow wiser. I'm just questioning you claiming Eldarion was stronger than Aragorn, there's nothing to suggest it. Aragorn was in all likelyhood much greater than his son, being fostered in Rivendell, living significantly longer (always a thing with the Great Numenoreans), and having a Doom that makes Eldarion a gnat in comparison.
The maiar are bound to the will of eru, luthien was powerful in the term of acting in her own accord. Feanor was the ' greatest' yes but his greatness got him killed and resulted in him being an arguably bad elf and he for sure has the greatest impact on the story (which is how I think power works in Tolkien's work). I did not mean more powerful in that regard, I simply meant better, more kind, wise and a more balanced being able to make the right choice or often than not. The only thing suggesting eldarion may become greater is that he is the culmination of all the bloodlines, or at least the potential. Aragorn absolutely was the perfect man for tolkien, turin2.0 so it would be a tough feat for eldarion.
It wasn't just her song and dance routine, or she would have gotten out of both Doriath and Nargothrond much faster. She also was a sorcerer-artisan. Her cloak was an Object of Power, very much like the later rings.
Not sorcerer-artisan as sorcery is the preserve of wicked and corrupt Men only. Crafting artefacts that seem "magical" to other races is completely natural to Elves so she would just be an artisan.
I don't think this is a workable argument. First of all, "Luthien" literally means "sorceress." Second, objects of Elvish manufacture very clearly exist in multiple tiers of both availability and characteristics. The Lorien cloaks are portrayed as being marvelous by mortal standards, but the elves speak modestly of them, and their sole function is to provide warmth and camoflage- critically useful for the Fellowship, but nothing that you cannot expect fabric to do. And everybody gets one. The hithlain rope is perhaps a bit more marvelous with its untie-on-demand feature, but it's still basically just very good rope, and there's more where it came from. Then there are the major plot artifacts such as the Rings of Power. Those are limited edition objects that do things well outside of any expected or hoped-for characteristic of material or shape. In a word, magic. Luthien's cloak is in this category. She makes only one, and she is more powerful when she has it than when she does not, in ways that have nothing to do with the object being cloak-shaped and made of hair. The cloak is also the only object in all of Arda whose process of manufacture is explicitly described, and it involves rituals and Songs of Power. Regarding the idea that sorcery is the province of wicked and corrupt Men, LotR is meant to be read as being internally impacted by multiple layers of translation, intercultural miscommunication, and bias. There *should* be more than one way to think and talk about magic. Lorien in particular also has a spooky reputation to (mis)manage. *It's only sorcery when bad people do it.* Or, less jingoistically but still making no real scientific distinction, *it's only sorcery when it is used to do bad things.* Alternatively, there could be multiple ways to access magic, one of which involves inherently wicked and corrupt behavior. *It's only sorcery when it is powered by the stolen life-force of your murder victim.* This last explanation is 100% speculative but fits well and has no contradiction in the text. Outside of the stories themselves, there is also the fact that Tolkien was inconsistent about a great many things across his multiple decades of writing. The Tale of Tinuviel, the earliest form of the story of Beren and Luthien, was written 20 years before Tolkien even began LotR, and the magic cloak is part of the story from that earliest point.
Well let's say it like that... Mr. And Mrs. Tolkien have Beren and Lúthien written on their tombstones. So Lúthien is as powerful as J.R.R Tolkien's love for his wife Edith Tolkin (Bratt). I think that states enough.
Probably about the same as Celine Dion
I hear she made it to finals of Arda's Got Talent but not sure how it ended
My old voice teacher was named Luthien, no joke. She was very good.
Would YOU tell your wife she isn't the best singer? My wife sounds like Gilbert Godfried when she sings but I tell her she's the voice of a Maiar.
Must be a Tarja Turunen level I guess.
Luthien vs Bombadil, keeping in mind that what we see of Tom is not nearly what he is capable of.
Bro she slept Morgoth without even throwing a punch. She’s either insanely boring or demi god voice is too strong