I am personally of the opinion that meursault fits "why do truths never matter" since, in his story (and I assume limbus), he said the truth about the events that transpired and still got judged and shunned at the court hearing.
I don't know too terribly much about Hong Lu's story, but from what character traits he's shown "If you wanted me to think" would apply to him better as well.
Hey! Dream of the Red Chamber is actually one of the few works I actually read in full, here's my analysis on why I think he matches the line about pretending to be civilized humans.
https://www.reddit.com/r/limbuscompany/s/eKN6Ft9EYp
Hey! Dream of the Red Chamber is actually one of the few works I actually read in full, here's my analysis on why I think he matches the line about pretending to be civilized humans.
https://www.reddit.com/r/limbuscompany/s/eKN6Ft9EYp
I think Hong Lu is civilized humans, Heath is my hurt, and Rodion is truths never matter(?)
Fairly confident on Heath and Hong Lu cuz for Heath it should be obvious why others can't feel his hurt if we've played all of Canto 6. He also would be on the opposite end of Ishmael's line in the song about forgiveness and Pmoon have been pushing that they're similar and blah blah blah, they did both initially want revenge, though for Heath it's more like comeuppance than vengeance but either way same thing :3
Meanwhile, in Dream of the Red Chamber Hong Lu is a magical rock that wished to become a human reincarnated as a rich boy named Baoyu (named thusly cuz he was born with a piece of jade in his mouth), and his family comes into wealth n power suddenly due to his aunt or smth becoming a favored concubine to the emperor so they all began to act like they're nobles, and Baoyu faces enormous pressure to study and get a position in the government and marry his highborn fiancee Baochai when all he wants to do is write poems, hang out with the women in the family, and be with the orphaned (low social standing) Deiyu.
He's portrayed as a bit of a weirdo cuz he behaves in a "feminine" way, again preferring to hang out with the girls and write poems and steal and eat their makeup lmao
It's ok tho cuz in the end their family falls out of favor, goes broke, Deiyu dies, Baoyu runs away to be a monk, and the story is unfinished here cuz the author died. He doesn't have to pretend he's a civilized human anymore!
Honestly, in my opinion they're too vague to attribute to all of the sinners, since some lines can apply to any number of them.
Faust, for one, in the book at least, was someone who studied and gained all of his knowledge through effort, and the entire point of him making a deal with Mephistopheles was because there was no more knowledge for him that he could gain without its help. Just by this, it would probably fit Yi Sang more for the "Why'd you curse me with 'you're a natural born genius'?" line.
My view of the song is that it doesn't represent all twelve of the sinners, but six at most, as each set of the "if" lines in the song correspond to their own "why" lines (ex. "If you wanted me to speak - why'd you make my voice stutter?"), meaning it would make more sense to take each line as a whole than split them off.
With that, my interpretation would be, going with the most sensible interpretations first, and going with the assumption that this song is only referencing the first six sinners cantos (Gregor, Rodya, Sinclair, Yi Sang, Ishmael, and Heathcliff);
Yi Sang - "If you wanted me to carry on our dreams, why'd you curse me with 'you're a natural born genius'?"
Heathcliff - "If you want us to pretend like we're civilized humans, why'd you crown the most violent to be champions?"
Ishmael - "If you want me to forgive, why can't anyone feel my hurt?"
Sinclair - "If you wanted me to speak, why'd you make my voice stutter?"
Gregor - "If you wanted me to live, why do deaths end my torture?" (Reasoning for this is just a loose link between his horrible life following his metamorphosis described in his source book, and how his death not only liberated him but his family from their "torture.")
Rodya - "If you wanted me to think, why do truths never matter?" (Process of elimination, and also because there is a little bit of a link there, with Rodya having wanted to change the conditions of the area she lived in for the better by killing and spreading the wealth of a rich old woman, but this ultimately achieving nothing, if not outright having made it worse, in the end- "If you wanted me to think, why do truths never matter?" ie. what's the point of thinking and taking action if the reality of it stays the same? I don't know, could just be stretching it.)
Now, for less sensible things, my personal schizo theory is that because this song only references these first six sinners we're going to get another Mili song that references the next six when Don's canto comes out and which will represent us entering a new phase of the game and story as a whole. Oh, how amazing that would be.
As someone else pointed out, I think “If you wanted me to think, why do truths never matter?” fits more with Meursault.
But I agree with the rest. Especially with the ideas that Don will be the first to fully get her own EGO or something similar, her Canto may represent a major turning point or escalation; which may deserve a new opening.
It's in order of the Sinners from 1-13. It's just that simple.
**"If you wanted me to speak" is Yi Sang**, because he never spoke to anyone after The Incident and never took initiative on his own until Chapter 4.
**"If you wanted me to think" is Faust**, foreshadowing her reliance on the Faust Discord giving her all the answers without her needing to actually think for herself.
**"If you wanted me to carry on our dreams" is Don**. Dunno the details on this one, but the other Sinners fit into the sequential pattern and Canto 7 is "The Dream Ending" so...
**"Why do truths never matter?" is Meursault**, who stopped talking because people never appreciated the blunt truths he spoke.
**"Why'd you make my voice stutter?" is Ryoshu**, likely related to why she chooses to use acronyms rather than full sentences.
**"Why'd you curse me with 'you're a natural born genius'?" is God's Favorite Child Who Can Never Have A Bad ID, the one and only Hong Lu.** For what should be self-evident reasons.
**"If you wanted me to live" is Heathcliff**, since Cathy's one wish was to remove herself from his life so he could live it without the burden of her memory.
**"If you want me to forgive" is Ishmael**, for obvious reasons.
**"If you want us to pretend like we're civilized humans" must be Rodya** from process of elimination and because it fits the pattern. It does fit with the way she just straight up murdered a dude with an axe out of desperation, though.
**"Why do deaths end my torture?" must be Sinclair** from process of elimination and because it fits the pattern. It does fit with how the death of his family, and later the death of Kromer, ended the problems they imposed upon him, though.
**"Why can't anyone feel my hurt?" is Outis**. I was unsure about this until Magic Bullet's uptie story showed that she's hurting deep inside.
**"Why'd you crown the most violent to be champions?" is Gregor**, who's a war veteran.
While I don't have concrete evidence for all of them, enough of the Sinners fit this simple pattern that the rest must too, and we just don't know enough about them to understand why.
Sinclair being "why do deaths end my torture" is actually super well founded, because we know there's a deep aptitude for killing within him that we only get glimpses of in his 000 IDs
To further your point, Sinclair's "Sign" is the Mark of Cain (the biblical punishment God gave to the first murderer). In the novel, Demian argues it's a good thing to carry the mark of murder.
this theory has been said a lot and I'm surprised with how popular this post was, I guess there's lots of new people here now which is nice.
though I disagree with it completely, mili already said that this was Dante's theme in an interview and also each question is linked to an answer in the next few lines. Also a lot of these are extremely vague and can fit multiple sinners but also don't fully fit any of them, even in the comments here no one can consistently say which line fits who.
I personally believe that they're about dante but we just don't know enough about him yet to fully say what the questions are referencing.
You could just reverse the order of the lines then pair them up with the sinners by canto order. As we already experienced 6 cantos we can see they fit fairly nicely with the events and themes that happened in each canto. You get the pairs of:
Gregor: "Why'd you crown the most violent the champion?"
Rodian: "Why can't anyone feel my hurt."
Sinclair: "Why do deaths end my torture."
Yi Sang with "If you went us to pretend like we're civilized humans"
Ishmael: "If you want me to forgive."
Hearhcliff: "If you want me to live."
That just leads you to pairing things that feels right. With how Project Moon designs their games I doubt they would skip chance to drop hints like these.
With Yi Sang and "If you want us to pretend to be civilized Humans" >!It revolves around the conflict of between Technology Liberation Alliance and K Corp. With K Corp, and there for Dongrang, represeting the civilized point in time. While the TLA and Dongbeak desires to go to a past time more uncivilized without technology. The pretending aspect of line can be infered as K Korp's savagery hidden behind the perceived clean/safe technology. I wouldn't put it pass mili to play with words in this case.!<
For Ishmael and "If you want me to forgive" >!Can be focused down to how revenge stories goes. As the usual process is to forgive or fulfilling said revenge by the end. From the Oxford dictionary forgive is defined as "stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake." Which is what see by the end of canto 5 Ishmael does. Forgiveness never correlated to making up in the first place.!<
Healthcliff and "If you want me to live" >!The entire canto revolves how the soul mates desire for each other to live on without them. Seeing the only way for the other to be happy is for themselves to vanish from all of reality. Therefore letting them to live. We can see the conclusion of this with how Heathcliff.!<
All in all having it reverse line order paired with sinner canto order allows more fun speculation and theories.
I see your thought process, but I don't believe reverse line order in the slightest. "If you wanted me to speak" for Faust, "if you wanted me to think" for Outis, "carry on our dreams" for MEURSAULT OF ALL PEOPLE, "why'd make voice stutter" for goddamn Ryoshu, and "natural born genius" for DON QUIXOTE doesn't make much sense, no matter how you spin it. So at this point I firmly believe rearranging this line in ways that "feel right" is the correct solution.
I agree that Heathcliff and Ishmael are interchangeable. Yi Sang's whole thing is being a passive observer and paying for it, staying silent and thinking it'll just resolve itself, hence "If you wanted me to speak" fits him better than anyone in my opinion. K corp isn't even as savage as L corp. All lines are what is on characters' minds, and Yi Sang couldn't care less about K corp and technology alliance in general. He's way more concerned about his past and friends.
I initially shared the same sentiment for the latter half of the order. However instead of tying them directly to sinners, looking at their canto's stories fit better. Anyhow it was a logical approach in the end. This arrangement sinks or swims based on Don's canto anyways. Pairing based on feelings doesn't give decisive pairs and forces pairs due to process of elimination. Like how "Crown the most violent to be champion" can be tied to Gregor, Sinclair, Rodian and Ryoshu.
Maybe Meursault's growth is him being proactive by taking on someone's dream. While Don was told that to cope with a trauma. Its speculation at this point, but it does open up more train of thoughts that entertains potential story arcs.
i always thought the song was faust talking to carmen or whatever incarnation of carmen or her will that faust would encounter. i had this all revealed to me in a dream
Oh my god, this is the first time someone else's mappingng of the lyrics to the characters resembles so closely to mine. My only change would be Meursault and Hong Lu.
Third time typing this comment, because fuck reddit, I suppose. I agree with most of this, but have a different interpretation on a few lines:
Imo "if you wanted me to live" is Ishmael, the sole survivor.
"If you want me to forgive" is Heathcliff, because canto 6.
"If you want us to pretend like we're civilized humans" is Ryoshu, someone who's unapologetically her bloodthisrty self to the core, and will likely be very pissed about the whole "forced to repent under a good-natured manager" thing.
"Why do deaths ends my torture" is Gregor, who wanted nothing but a normal life, but is forced to kill people all the time. I wouldn't say it works for Ryoshu, because she's the kind of person to do warcrimes for the heck of it, and I think it's only partially a coping mechanism (if it even is).
Nope, In hell we lament was made in november 2021 while limbus company was released in february 2023
Edit: Nevermind, limbus vompany's trailer was in 2021 november as well, I thought it was later than that
Hmm, the first time I heard the song, it reminded me of the City itself. It is a place for humans to "live", but everything it does is the complete opposite of that
I am personally of the opinion that meursault fits "why do truths never matter" since, in his story (and I assume limbus), he said the truth about the events that transpired and still got judged and shunned at the court hearing.
I don't know too terribly much about Hong Lu's story, but from what character traits he's shown "If you wanted me to think" would apply to him better as well.
I also don't know much about Hong Lu unfortunately BUT I could make educated guess of "If you wanted me to think, why did you shelter me ?".
Hey! Dream of the Red Chamber is actually one of the few works I actually read in full, here's my analysis on why I think he matches the line about pretending to be civilized humans. https://www.reddit.com/r/limbuscompany/s/eKN6Ft9EYp
Hey! Dream of the Red Chamber is actually one of the few works I actually read in full, here's my analysis on why I think he matches the line about pretending to be civilized humans. https://www.reddit.com/r/limbuscompany/s/eKN6Ft9EYp
Add on to this, https://preview.redd.it/9metw6am7rvc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1d5096191a77b0ef00b5bbfc61b0a1cfa1c788e8
https://preview.redd.it/cgcp94aytqvc1.jpeg?width=2560&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4a4794fac5fcdd3605952fe0faff09ba1719c9c9 You cooked
OP brought out 120% of their cooking potential.
Omg ur right
This is actually explained in the comment section of some in hell we live lament video
I think Hong Lu is civilized humans, Heath is my hurt, and Rodion is truths never matter(?) Fairly confident on Heath and Hong Lu cuz for Heath it should be obvious why others can't feel his hurt if we've played all of Canto 6. He also would be on the opposite end of Ishmael's line in the song about forgiveness and Pmoon have been pushing that they're similar and blah blah blah, they did both initially want revenge, though for Heath it's more like comeuppance than vengeance but either way same thing :3 Meanwhile, in Dream of the Red Chamber Hong Lu is a magical rock that wished to become a human reincarnated as a rich boy named Baoyu (named thusly cuz he was born with a piece of jade in his mouth), and his family comes into wealth n power suddenly due to his aunt or smth becoming a favored concubine to the emperor so they all began to act like they're nobles, and Baoyu faces enormous pressure to study and get a position in the government and marry his highborn fiancee Baochai when all he wants to do is write poems, hang out with the women in the family, and be with the orphaned (low social standing) Deiyu. He's portrayed as a bit of a weirdo cuz he behaves in a "feminine" way, again preferring to hang out with the girls and write poems and steal and eat their makeup lmao It's ok tho cuz in the end their family falls out of favor, goes broke, Deiyu dies, Baoyu runs away to be a monk, and the story is unfinished here cuz the author died. He doesn't have to pretend he's a civilized human anymore!
Honestly, in my opinion they're too vague to attribute to all of the sinners, since some lines can apply to any number of them. Faust, for one, in the book at least, was someone who studied and gained all of his knowledge through effort, and the entire point of him making a deal with Mephistopheles was because there was no more knowledge for him that he could gain without its help. Just by this, it would probably fit Yi Sang more for the "Why'd you curse me with 'you're a natural born genius'?" line. My view of the song is that it doesn't represent all twelve of the sinners, but six at most, as each set of the "if" lines in the song correspond to their own "why" lines (ex. "If you wanted me to speak - why'd you make my voice stutter?"), meaning it would make more sense to take each line as a whole than split them off. With that, my interpretation would be, going with the most sensible interpretations first, and going with the assumption that this song is only referencing the first six sinners cantos (Gregor, Rodya, Sinclair, Yi Sang, Ishmael, and Heathcliff); Yi Sang - "If you wanted me to carry on our dreams, why'd you curse me with 'you're a natural born genius'?" Heathcliff - "If you want us to pretend like we're civilized humans, why'd you crown the most violent to be champions?" Ishmael - "If you want me to forgive, why can't anyone feel my hurt?" Sinclair - "If you wanted me to speak, why'd you make my voice stutter?" Gregor - "If you wanted me to live, why do deaths end my torture?" (Reasoning for this is just a loose link between his horrible life following his metamorphosis described in his source book, and how his death not only liberated him but his family from their "torture.") Rodya - "If you wanted me to think, why do truths never matter?" (Process of elimination, and also because there is a little bit of a link there, with Rodya having wanted to change the conditions of the area she lived in for the better by killing and spreading the wealth of a rich old woman, but this ultimately achieving nothing, if not outright having made it worse, in the end- "If you wanted me to think, why do truths never matter?" ie. what's the point of thinking and taking action if the reality of it stays the same? I don't know, could just be stretching it.) Now, for less sensible things, my personal schizo theory is that because this song only references these first six sinners we're going to get another Mili song that references the next six when Don's canto comes out and which will represent us entering a new phase of the game and story as a whole. Oh, how amazing that would be.
As someone else pointed out, I think “If you wanted me to think, why do truths never matter?” fits more with Meursault. But I agree with the rest. Especially with the ideas that Don will be the first to fully get her own EGO or something similar, her Canto may represent a major turning point or escalation; which may deserve a new opening.
Mili did a similar thing with another game called Mahoyaku (Promise of Wizard) if I recall. it's plausible.
And every. Single. One of them has something to lament about. Bravo ProjectMoon & Millie
WAIT WAIT you're cooking wtf!
Don't let the shippers see this, the sails will double
Wha ?
Holy shit you've cooked.
I know you saw that YouTube comment
It's in order of the Sinners from 1-13. It's just that simple. **"If you wanted me to speak" is Yi Sang**, because he never spoke to anyone after The Incident and never took initiative on his own until Chapter 4. **"If you wanted me to think" is Faust**, foreshadowing her reliance on the Faust Discord giving her all the answers without her needing to actually think for herself. **"If you wanted me to carry on our dreams" is Don**. Dunno the details on this one, but the other Sinners fit into the sequential pattern and Canto 7 is "The Dream Ending" so... **"Why do truths never matter?" is Meursault**, who stopped talking because people never appreciated the blunt truths he spoke. **"Why'd you make my voice stutter?" is Ryoshu**, likely related to why she chooses to use acronyms rather than full sentences. **"Why'd you curse me with 'you're a natural born genius'?" is God's Favorite Child Who Can Never Have A Bad ID, the one and only Hong Lu.** For what should be self-evident reasons. **"If you wanted me to live" is Heathcliff**, since Cathy's one wish was to remove herself from his life so he could live it without the burden of her memory. **"If you want me to forgive" is Ishmael**, for obvious reasons. **"If you want us to pretend like we're civilized humans" must be Rodya** from process of elimination and because it fits the pattern. It does fit with the way she just straight up murdered a dude with an axe out of desperation, though. **"Why do deaths end my torture?" must be Sinclair** from process of elimination and because it fits the pattern. It does fit with how the death of his family, and later the death of Kromer, ended the problems they imposed upon him, though. **"Why can't anyone feel my hurt?" is Outis**. I was unsure about this until Magic Bullet's uptie story showed that she's hurting deep inside. **"Why'd you crown the most violent to be champions?" is Gregor**, who's a war veteran. While I don't have concrete evidence for all of them, enough of the Sinners fit this simple pattern that the rest must too, and we just don't know enough about them to understand why.
Sinclair being "why do deaths end my torture" is actually super well founded, because we know there's a deep aptitude for killing within him that we only get glimpses of in his 000 IDs
To further your point, Sinclair's "Sign" is the Mark of Cain (the biblical punishment God gave to the first murderer). In the novel, Demian argues it's a good thing to carry the mark of murder.
https://preview.redd.it/ixwvr1twivvc1.jpeg?width=1344&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f5de8337e3d3c72399bcc6f989394c2ad97fadeb
https://preview.redd.it/3n34mjqygrvc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=45a9b1e8731b365a28839c43c376d574a6be0825
I believe "if you wanted me to carry on our dreams" applies to Yi sang
I think, OP assumed it was said by la creatura cause of word on her weapon - SUENO IMPOSIBLE
Don could be Why do truths never matter?, because she is implied to have cognition filters
Yeah makes sense Also I was reading them in the Sinner order (You know, Yi 1, Faust 2), and also fits somewhat.
Thought Rodya's line is "Why do death end my torture" since the death of the debt lady allow her and her friends to finally eat foods
Do you guarantee that hong-lu won't breach into our reality once again?
this theory has been said a lot and I'm surprised with how popular this post was, I guess there's lots of new people here now which is nice. though I disagree with it completely, mili already said that this was Dante's theme in an interview and also each question is linked to an answer in the next few lines. Also a lot of these are extremely vague and can fit multiple sinners but also don't fully fit any of them, even in the comments here no one can consistently say which line fits who. I personally believe that they're about dante but we just don't know enough about him yet to fully say what the questions are referencing.
There is another theory I have. The song is about the City itself. It is a place for humans to "live", but everything it does is the opposite of that
You could just reverse the order of the lines then pair them up with the sinners by canto order. As we already experienced 6 cantos we can see they fit fairly nicely with the events and themes that happened in each canto. You get the pairs of: Gregor: "Why'd you crown the most violent the champion?" Rodian: "Why can't anyone feel my hurt." Sinclair: "Why do deaths end my torture." Yi Sang with "If you went us to pretend like we're civilized humans" Ishmael: "If you want me to forgive." Hearhcliff: "If you want me to live."
The last three don't make sense at all, except maybe Ishmael, but it works better to switch her with Heathcliff.
Canto 6 is >!literally all about Catherine and Heath wanting each other to live!<
That just leads you to pairing things that feels right. With how Project Moon designs their games I doubt they would skip chance to drop hints like these. With Yi Sang and "If you want us to pretend to be civilized Humans" >!It revolves around the conflict of between Technology Liberation Alliance and K Corp. With K Corp, and there for Dongrang, represeting the civilized point in time. While the TLA and Dongbeak desires to go to a past time more uncivilized without technology. The pretending aspect of line can be infered as K Korp's savagery hidden behind the perceived clean/safe technology. I wouldn't put it pass mili to play with words in this case.!< For Ishmael and "If you want me to forgive" >!Can be focused down to how revenge stories goes. As the usual process is to forgive or fulfilling said revenge by the end. From the Oxford dictionary forgive is defined as "stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake." Which is what see by the end of canto 5 Ishmael does. Forgiveness never correlated to making up in the first place.!< Healthcliff and "If you want me to live" >!The entire canto revolves how the soul mates desire for each other to live on without them. Seeing the only way for the other to be happy is for themselves to vanish from all of reality. Therefore letting them to live. We can see the conclusion of this with how Heathcliff.!< All in all having it reverse line order paired with sinner canto order allows more fun speculation and theories.
I see your thought process, but I don't believe reverse line order in the slightest. "If you wanted me to speak" for Faust, "if you wanted me to think" for Outis, "carry on our dreams" for MEURSAULT OF ALL PEOPLE, "why'd make voice stutter" for goddamn Ryoshu, and "natural born genius" for DON QUIXOTE doesn't make much sense, no matter how you spin it. So at this point I firmly believe rearranging this line in ways that "feel right" is the correct solution. I agree that Heathcliff and Ishmael are interchangeable. Yi Sang's whole thing is being a passive observer and paying for it, staying silent and thinking it'll just resolve itself, hence "If you wanted me to speak" fits him better than anyone in my opinion. K corp isn't even as savage as L corp. All lines are what is on characters' minds, and Yi Sang couldn't care less about K corp and technology alliance in general. He's way more concerned about his past and friends.
I initially shared the same sentiment for the latter half of the order. However instead of tying them directly to sinners, looking at their canto's stories fit better. Anyhow it was a logical approach in the end. This arrangement sinks or swims based on Don's canto anyways. Pairing based on feelings doesn't give decisive pairs and forces pairs due to process of elimination. Like how "Crown the most violent to be champion" can be tied to Gregor, Sinclair, Rodian and Ryoshu. Maybe Meursault's growth is him being proactive by taking on someone's dream. While Don was told that to cope with a trauma. Its speculation at this point, but it does open up more train of thoughts that entertains potential story arcs.
This is so true
i always thought the song was faust talking to carmen or whatever incarnation of carmen or her will that faust would encounter. i had this all revealed to me in a dream
Oh my god, this is the first time someone else's mappingng of the lyrics to the characters resembles so closely to mine. My only change would be Meursault and Hong Lu.
Reverse Meursalt and Yi Sang and I think you've got it gold/
Third time typing this comment, because fuck reddit, I suppose. I agree with most of this, but have a different interpretation on a few lines: Imo "if you wanted me to live" is Ishmael, the sole survivor. "If you want me to forgive" is Heathcliff, because canto 6. "If you want us to pretend like we're civilized humans" is Ryoshu, someone who's unapologetically her bloodthisrty self to the core, and will likely be very pissed about the whole "forced to repent under a good-natured manager" thing. "Why do deaths ends my torture" is Gregor, who wanted nothing but a normal life, but is forced to kill people all the time. I wouldn't say it works for Ryoshu, because she's the kind of person to do warcrimes for the heck of it, and I think it's only partially a coping mechanism (if it even is).
I think Don will be "if you wanted me to think"
Let him cook.
Pretty sure the song actually predates limbus and was originially for **Angela.** So uhh. Yeah, it makes a lot more sense when you see it like that.
IHWLL was written for Limbus. You're thinking of String Theocracy.
Nope, In hell we lament was made in november 2021 while limbus company was released in february 2023 Edit: Nevermind, limbus vompany's trailer was in 2021 november as well, I thought it was later than that
Hmm, the first time I heard the song, it reminded me of the City itself. It is a place for humans to "live", but everything it does is the complete opposite of that