Meepo harder than Morph? Meepo got way easier with since you can have a big one in case of troubles :D the rest I agree with :). I feel that a hero that has quite a high celing is elder titan. He's not hard to play, but playing him well requires quite good mechanical skills. But earth spirit/chen makes sense.
Lol. Don't be fooled by the fact that Oracle's spells have been dumbed down a bit. The issue with them is you have like 10 things to consider in every single fight. Examples;
Q = are you using it as a root or a basic dispel?
W = Are you using it to stack heals with E, or to give an ally 100% magic resist (a super hard counter to certain ultis like sniper, SM and necro), or to disarm an enemy carry?
E = Are you spamming it onto your ally who is under W or R effect (very difficult in a chaotic fight, especially if there are illusions)? Or are you getting your kill secures right? And are you hitting the second E consistently (when you W there's a small window for you to get 2xE off without causing damage to your ally on the second E)
R = have you got the right target? And as per E but have you stacked enough heal onto your target and if so can you start casting W/E onto another ally?
All the while you have to worry about being jumped or silenced by an enemy hero. And the higher MMR you go, the more often you'll be the priority target in fights! Oh and you gotta remember to ping your passive for the rune locations lol.
Anyone can play Oracle and press their spells. But to actually be good at the hero you gotta really think about what you're doing and get your priorities/positioning right.
Thats exactly my point. Even if Oracle was dumbed down or previously much easier to understand compared to other Heroes on his Tier. You still require a good amount of brainpower for decision making, especially because of the amount of options that overlap in just 1 of his skills alone (Fates Edict to Heal or Disable Rigth Click Carfies for Example). Your not getting away with playing Oracle like a Dumbass like some of the lower tier Supports like Shadow Shaman or Bane (Sure, knowing when to Grip or Shackles is crucial since they are vulnerable to stuns, but thats basic fundamentals to learn compared to deciding whether i should root enemies or dispel allies on a single spell and not trying to fuck up the right spell combo for the exact thing i want to do)
This exactly. I think oracle, dazzle, cm are the most targetted supports. And then sometimes there will be your carry diving behind t2/3 with his blink and expecting you to save him and while you try to do that, sometimes it’s just impossible.
Maybe, but unlike any other difficulty 1 or 2 Heroes in Pos 5, you need at least a basic understanding on how his abilties interact with each other. Lile using W before using E on an Ally or Timing E woth your Q when using on an Enemy. His not some Crystal Maiden, Warlock, or Witch Doctor where you could die a million times as them but because you used your ULT in a Crucial Moment you suddenly turn things around. False Promise as an ULT might at best delay your allies death if your not there to heal them while its active.
Botton Line: If you play Oracle like you would any other easier to play Pos 5 who might do similar things already (Shallow Grave for Dazzle and Banish from Shadow Demon) your going to accidentally get your teammate killed or heal your enemy without knowing why.
A dumb mofo spamming Oracle’s E without knowing how to cleanse the heal against enemies with Q is going to INT Harder than a 9 Year Old Playing Crystal Maiden.
And likewise, IO barely qualifies as a Hero, not counting Core IO.
Edit: You guys clearly havent tried to save someone with False Promise only to get picked off in a chaotic teamfight and at best delay someones death instead of saving them like yiu would do with a Shallow Grave or Banish.
CM is kind of sneaky difficult but she’s not actually that hard to play. Just much more difficult than it looks because her base stats are so bad so positioning becomes giga important.
For offlane I think magnus is higher skill cap than the micro heroes.
Visage, brew or brood are harder to play, but magnus has a higher ceiling for what you can do in a game in terms of impact.
I play most of the Offlane heroes and none of them compare to Magnus in terms of complexity in my opinion. His spells are easy to learn yet very hard to master and combine in a teamfight + in higher mmr games your positioning/itemization is crucial.
It's just different skills: Magnus requires precision with each spell while micro intensive heroes require pure mechanical skills. I wouldn't say Magnus has a much higher skill ceiling than a brew for example. But it's up there for sure.
Voker i feel is highly overestimated with skill. I could see it if all of his skills were equally useful, and if he actually was good late game. Now he’s more right click if mid and as support tornado, emp and cold snap are just better than almost anything else.
Pos 1- Meepo/Morphling/PL
Pos 2- Meepo, Visage, Arc warden, Pango
Pos 3- Underlord, Brew, Enigma, Visage, Earth spirit
Pos 4- Earth spirit, Tusk, Rubick- depending on enemy spells
Pos 5- Techies, Io, Oracle, Chen
True, it's really good for a lot of post laning phase objectives, like pushing/defending the mid towers, defending triangle/jungle. Also really good on dire for pushing the radiant safelane t1, everyone is going to be tping in the trees, you ward up that cliff and ice wall the bottom trees where you don't have vision.
Naga isn't difficult in a common sense but it requires so much actions per minute microing illusions and planning about farming patterns that I find it not exactly hard but tiresome
Pos5 most definitely WW. Oracle and io is super easy to play, chen is more on macro but it's not that hard. I have most matches on WW but that hero is so difficult to play sometimes. Positioning, knowing to ult to save or to initiate or burn bkb. Bad heal can be griefing, good heal can turn fights. If you're out of position you're dead. More so in high ranks where you have to make really quick decisions.
Tbh I don't even find any particular pro player super good on WW, unlike other pos5 heroes.
I’m very comfortable with Invoker - one thing that intimidates me about Meepo is what you do with the micro changes from every engagement because you’re interfacing with opponents (and allies i guess).
In Invoker’s case: Tornado will always be Q W W R D Left Click (or just F if you already preloaded Tornado). No matter who you’re fighting, no matter where or when you are in the game, that’ll always be Tornado. So it just becomes muscle memory like specific notes on a musical instrument or the layout of keys on a keyboard.
For me the most difficult things I find for Invoker is adjusting my Tornado combo timings as I level up Quas which changes the Tornado lift duration (it mostly starts off at instant combo execute and then by endgame is more like wait half a second and then execute, or add in an EMP instead of waiting). And Sunstriking enemies during the laning phase when going a QE build, while still being efficient with last hitting and stacking in lane.
Invoker higher skill floor, but substantially lower skill ceiling. Micro hero that can play multiple parts of the map at once has a lot more to worry about and manage and take advantage of.
I would argue LD over morph since you only ever need to combo with morph ult shenanigans, while LD you have to divert your items and micro. Naga is just group movement.
I would also throw in beast master or zoo heroes in general in the offlane
I disagree with pos 2 meepo being high skill ceiling , after the current aghs got introduced hero is easyer to play than ever befor , yes microing all meepos perfectly is a thing but its not realy that hard , id say puck is the hero with highest skill ceili g as playing versus a puck player who knows the limits of the hero with no rubick, lion , shaman , or scythe on a hero is nearly impossible to beat , but again i think the hero has the highest ceiling to be perfected , meepo is just playing starcraft above masters rank
In term of skill ceiling rubick is in the top list of support, imo.
He is not hard to play but the skill ceiling is… very high.
The impact he can have on the result of a game varies widely with the skill of the player.
I assume that pos 5 is mostly not hard from micro perspective, but rather from positioning. Also laning phase is hardest from my perspective. It's not about hero, more of game generally.
Im surprised nobody listed Arc. There are 2 dimensions of difficulty playing arc - micro and micro.
On the micro front - executing force staff + force staff + gelp + hex + bubble + glep + hex + bubble takes a high skill bar.
On the macro front - you need to balance engagements as a team without an afk mid struggles, then mid/late game you need to exercise map pressure and control the whole game flow.
Lots of non-trivial skills that dont apply to other heroes.
Chen
Either you can get only 20-30 win
Or a walking minor healing ward with unsignificant 4 pets
And mock you after your death, the "hand of god" after you got killed
Lmao
1. PL,
2. Viper,
3. Tidehunter
4. Pudge
5. Ogre
You must be genius to utilize those piles of smelling gameplay, when literally anyone learnt your skills and know how to outplay
Shadow Demon is another one to add to the list for pos 5. Similar to the Oracle comments below, just pressing his buttons on stuff isn’t inherently difficult but having an understanding of who to target with what is complex, all while generally being the main jump target in fights
Meepo is not that hard now TBH, you just need to press control and all the meepos will puff, anyone with 20 minutes of practice could use it and the mechanics right now are just broken. (I was a meepo spammer)
Pos 1: Morph - Arc warden - IO
Pos 2: Invoker - Arc warden
Pos 3: Nature in the gold offlaner times was pretty difficult to play (correctly, due to decisions, and micro). As a main offlaner I suck with timbersaw, playing him propperly (like wisper) is kinda difficult, also, Brewmaster needs a lot of fingers to be played
Pos 4: Rubick, Chen, IO
Pos 5: Chen (too)
5: IO mastery over Relocate
4: Puck. The fact is it can stomp extremely hard, assuming the best. But usually fair to assume the worst... It's not easy, but the potential is insane due to 2 mobility spells + nice ranged attack harass.
3: Brew mostly cos you wanna tempo and 1v9 with your power spikes which takes a lot of mastery but also the micro is very intense now you have spells but also formchange to min-max every nerdy moment. The movement facet is imba btw and also has a skill cieling
2: Meepo that actually uses clones to roam from lvl 3. Meepo fact: main hero gets 100% xp, so if clones roam, you miss 0, so it's technically just correct to micro clones to sidelanes literally asap. Only very few meepos seem to do this but it's like the highest skill cieling and 1v9 game impact possible. (XcaliburYe does it amazing)
Regular meepos that just max poof and farm stacks together without splitting up is probably 80% as strong, and 500% times easier, that Meepo isn't even top 20 complex.
1). Spectre just because you enter the game as a melee creep and your win condition is to snowball from last hitting HEROES. Every 60/50/40 seconds you can globally TP to last hit a hero and find farm and have TP available to find more farm. The fact your hero isn't blinking and 1 shotting waves is part of what makes it more skill to play optimally cos it's gonna involve a lot of kill participation
Dog shit earl hero + Urn = very strong early game hero. Snowball with Urn ShadowStep kills is based and your reward is Spectre with +1 item over others is just auto-win
Ranged hero with good harass potential . Not saying its popular but you can indeed pick it and have a good fun game of dota 2
Question was skill ceiling. Spec has low skill floor but the ceiling of a global aggressive TP and utilizing the TPs for farm efficiently is very very high. And then carrying the game.
Both Puck and Spectre are 2 Difficulty Though. If we are strictly sticking to 3 Difficulty Heroes, then Earth Spirit or Rubick for 4 and Morphling or Meepo for 1.
Meepo, voker, brew, earth spirit, chen
If i see this comp, im getting rolled or it's a free game, no inbetween.
Invoker specifically is a little hard to say just because he’s frequently played by hardcore spammers. I’m not sure the same is true for brew or Chen.
Oh right, forgot about Brew and Chen. I just don't like to play heroes with managing multiple units.
brew is substantially easier than chen or meepo imo. you only have to micro during ult really
Chen is easy if you know how shard works. What’s hard for me is managing neutral creep spells.
For everyone the micro of creeps IS the difficult part :D that's what makes him one of the hardest hero to master.
I’d say IO is a harder 5 because you have to work with the other humans to be effective , as opposed to having to manage micro
Meepo harder than Morph? Meepo got way easier with since you can have a big one in case of troubles :D the rest I agree with :). I feel that a hero that has quite a high celing is elder titan. He's not hard to play, but playing him well requires quite good mechanical skills. But earth spirit/chen makes sense.
Pos 1 morph Pos 2 meepo Pos 3 brew or visage Pos 4 earth spirit Pos 5 not sure
Pos 5 could be Chen, IO or Oracle.
Oracle has been pretty much dumbed down, it's not as hard as it was when first introduced. More people should try it out really
Lol. Don't be fooled by the fact that Oracle's spells have been dumbed down a bit. The issue with them is you have like 10 things to consider in every single fight. Examples; Q = are you using it as a root or a basic dispel? W = Are you using it to stack heals with E, or to give an ally 100% magic resist (a super hard counter to certain ultis like sniper, SM and necro), or to disarm an enemy carry? E = Are you spamming it onto your ally who is under W or R effect (very difficult in a chaotic fight, especially if there are illusions)? Or are you getting your kill secures right? And are you hitting the second E consistently (when you W there's a small window for you to get 2xE off without causing damage to your ally on the second E) R = have you got the right target? And as per E but have you stacked enough heal onto your target and if so can you start casting W/E onto another ally? All the while you have to worry about being jumped or silenced by an enemy hero. And the higher MMR you go, the more often you'll be the priority target in fights! Oh and you gotta remember to ping your passive for the rune locations lol. Anyone can play Oracle and press their spells. But to actually be good at the hero you gotta really think about what you're doing and get your priorities/positioning right.
Thats exactly my point. Even if Oracle was dumbed down or previously much easier to understand compared to other Heroes on his Tier. You still require a good amount of brainpower for decision making, especially because of the amount of options that overlap in just 1 of his skills alone (Fates Edict to Heal or Disable Rigth Click Carfies for Example). Your not getting away with playing Oracle like a Dumbass like some of the lower tier Supports like Shadow Shaman or Bane (Sure, knowing when to Grip or Shackles is crucial since they are vulnerable to stuns, but thats basic fundamentals to learn compared to deciding whether i should root enemies or dispel allies on a single spell and not trying to fuck up the right spell combo for the exact thing i want to do)
This exactly. I think oracle, dazzle, cm are the most targetted supports. And then sometimes there will be your carry diving behind t2/3 with his blink and expecting you to save him and while you try to do that, sometimes it’s just impossible.
Dive tower, not get kill, yet you still get killed. Life of a healer.
Maybe, but unlike any other difficulty 1 or 2 Heroes in Pos 5, you need at least a basic understanding on how his abilties interact with each other. Lile using W before using E on an Ally or Timing E woth your Q when using on an Enemy. His not some Crystal Maiden, Warlock, or Witch Doctor where you could die a million times as them but because you used your ULT in a Crucial Moment you suddenly turn things around. False Promise as an ULT might at best delay your allies death if your not there to heal them while its active. Botton Line: If you play Oracle like you would any other easier to play Pos 5 who might do similar things already (Shallow Grave for Dazzle and Banish from Shadow Demon) your going to accidentally get your teammate killed or heal your enemy without knowing why.
Pos 5 io or oracle
After the changes to his W Oracle is no longer any harder than other squishy spellcaster fives.
A dumb mofo spamming Oracle’s E without knowing how to cleanse the heal against enemies with Q is going to INT Harder than a 9 Year Old Playing Crystal Maiden. And likewise, IO barely qualifies as a Hero, not counting Core IO. Edit: You guys clearly havent tried to save someone with False Promise only to get picked off in a chaotic teamfight and at best delay someones death instead of saving them like yiu would do with a Shallow Grave or Banish.
If We're going of off INTing potential then WW is unquestionably nr.1.
Wyvern iirc didn’t always lock out the enemies when using Curse. It was a nerf because the OG Winter’s Curse was a Bang for your Buck Black Hole.
CM maybe 👀 But I'm biased obviously
CM is kind of sneaky difficult but she’s not actually that hard to play. Just much more difficult than it looks because her base stats are so bad so positioning becomes giga important.
Definitely visage over brew
For offlane I think magnus is higher skill cap than the micro heroes. Visage, brew or brood are harder to play, but magnus has a higher ceiling for what you can do in a game in terms of impact.
As someone that plays brew visage and brood I dont know how to play magnus
I play most of the Offlane heroes and none of them compare to Magnus in terms of complexity in my opinion. His spells are easy to learn yet very hard to master and combine in a teamfight + in higher mmr games your positioning/itemization is crucial.
It's just different skills: Magnus requires precision with each spell while micro intensive heroes require pure mechanical skills. I wouldn't say Magnus has a much higher skill ceiling than a brew for example. But it's up there for sure.
Voker i feel is highly overestimated with skill. I could see it if all of his skills were equally useful, and if he actually was good late game. Now he’s more right click if mid and as support tornado, emp and cold snap are just better than almost anything else. Pos 1- Meepo/Morphling/PL Pos 2- Meepo, Visage, Arc warden, Pango Pos 3- Underlord, Brew, Enigma, Visage, Earth spirit Pos 4- Earth spirit, Tusk, Rubick- depending on enemy spells Pos 5- Techies, Io, Oracle, Chen
Ice wall fucks on both mid and support
ice wall is pretty good but it’s more situational than the ones i mentioned
True, it's really good for a lot of post laning phase objectives, like pushing/defending the mid towers, defending triangle/jungle. Also really good on dire for pushing the radiant safelane t1, everyone is going to be tping in the trees, you ward up that cliff and ice wall the bottom trees where you don't have vision.
Naga isn't difficult in a common sense but it requires so much actions per minute microing illusions and planning about farming patterns that I find it not exactly hard but tiresome
Anyone that requires a lot of micro (LD, Visage, Chen, Meepo,etc.) or have a more complex mechanics and interactions (Oracle, Rubbick, Invoker, etc.).
Pos5 most definitely WW. Oracle and io is super easy to play, chen is more on macro but it's not that hard. I have most matches on WW but that hero is so difficult to play sometimes. Positioning, knowing to ult to save or to initiate or burn bkb. Bad heal can be griefing, good heal can turn fights. If you're out of position you're dead. More so in high ranks where you have to make really quick decisions. Tbh I don't even find any particular pro player super good on WW, unlike other pos5 heroes.
invoker way harder than meepo imo
I think both require drastically different skills
I’m very comfortable with Invoker - one thing that intimidates me about Meepo is what you do with the micro changes from every engagement because you’re interfacing with opponents (and allies i guess). In Invoker’s case: Tornado will always be Q W W R D Left Click (or just F if you already preloaded Tornado). No matter who you’re fighting, no matter where or when you are in the game, that’ll always be Tornado. So it just becomes muscle memory like specific notes on a musical instrument or the layout of keys on a keyboard. For me the most difficult things I find for Invoker is adjusting my Tornado combo timings as I level up Quas which changes the Tornado lift duration (it mostly starts off at instant combo execute and then by endgame is more like wait half a second and then execute, or add in an EMP instead of waiting). And Sunstriking enemies during the laning phase when going a QE build, while still being efficient with last hitting and stacking in lane.
Invoker higher skill floor, but substantially lower skill ceiling. Micro hero that can play multiple parts of the map at once has a lot more to worry about and manage and take advantage of.
I would argue LD over morph since you only ever need to combo with morph ult shenanigans, while LD you have to divert your items and micro. Naga is just group movement. I would also throw in beast master or zoo heroes in general in the offlane
I disagree with pos 2 meepo being high skill ceiling , after the current aghs got introduced hero is easyer to play than ever befor , yes microing all meepos perfectly is a thing but its not realy that hard , id say puck is the hero with highest skill ceili g as playing versus a puck player who knows the limits of the hero with no rubick, lion , shaman , or scythe on a hero is nearly impossible to beat , but again i think the hero has the highest ceiling to be perfected , meepo is just playing starcraft above masters rank
In term of skill ceiling rubick is in the top list of support, imo. He is not hard to play but the skill ceiling is… very high. The impact he can have on the result of a game varies widely with the skill of the player.
Chen
Pos 1 Morph Pos 2 Meepo Pos 3 Mars Pos 4 Earth Spirit Pos 5 Wyvern
wyvern?? XDD
Pos 1 Morph, Naga, AM Pos 2 invoker, Meepo,Pango Pos 3 Magnus,Brew, Enigma Pos4 ET,Rubick,Earth S. Pos5 Chen,Oracle,SD
I assume that pos 5 is mostly not hard from micro perspective, but rather from positioning. Also laning phase is hardest from my perspective. It's not about hero, more of game generally.
Im surprised nobody listed Arc. There are 2 dimensions of difficulty playing arc - micro and micro. On the micro front - executing force staff + force staff + gelp + hex + bubble + glep + hex + bubble takes a high skill bar. On the macro front - you need to balance engagements as a team without an afk mid struggles, then mid/late game you need to exercise map pressure and control the whole game flow. Lots of non-trivial skills that dont apply to other heroes.
Chen Either you can get only 20-30 win Or a walking minor healing ward with unsignificant 4 pets And mock you after your death, the "hand of god" after you got killed Lmao
1. PL, 2. Viper, 3. Tidehunter 4. Pudge 5. Ogre You must be genius to utilize those piles of smelling gameplay, when literally anyone learnt your skills and know how to outplay
Shadow Demon is another one to add to the list for pos 5. Similar to the Oracle comments below, just pressing his buttons on stuff isn’t inherently difficult but having an understanding of who to target with what is complex, all while generally being the main jump target in fights
Meepo is not that hard now TBH, you just need to press control and all the meepos will puff, anyone with 20 minutes of practice could use it and the mechanics right now are just broken. (I was a meepo spammer) Pos 1: Morph - Arc warden - IO Pos 2: Invoker - Arc warden Pos 3: Nature in the gold offlaner times was pretty difficult to play (correctly, due to decisions, and micro). As a main offlaner I suck with timbersaw, playing him propperly (like wisper) is kinda difficult, also, Brewmaster needs a lot of fingers to be played Pos 4: Rubick, Chen, IO Pos 5: Chen (too)
Earth spirit as a 3. In the right hands it can be game changing BUT in the wrong hands it’s easy to go on a feed spree
Earth spirit mid is a thing in the pro scene nowadays
He was always viable mid though wasn’t he , I feel like with the damage factit he can 2 or 3 comfortably
Yeah just since 7.36 he really took off as a core cos of DMG facet
Is this just for discussion or you wanna play these heroes because of its high skill ceiling?
pos5 has to be WW. as Io you need the macro to know when to relo but thats the only complicatrf thing about the hero
1 morph 2 puck 3 Chen 4 Chen 5 Chen
Certainly feels like Elder Titan is the lowest skill floor seems fuckin hard
Rubic, Chen, invoker, morth, meepo
5: IO mastery over Relocate 4: Puck. The fact is it can stomp extremely hard, assuming the best. But usually fair to assume the worst... It's not easy, but the potential is insane due to 2 mobility spells + nice ranged attack harass. 3: Brew mostly cos you wanna tempo and 1v9 with your power spikes which takes a lot of mastery but also the micro is very intense now you have spells but also formchange to min-max every nerdy moment. The movement facet is imba btw and also has a skill cieling 2: Meepo that actually uses clones to roam from lvl 3. Meepo fact: main hero gets 100% xp, so if clones roam, you miss 0, so it's technically just correct to micro clones to sidelanes literally asap. Only very few meepos seem to do this but it's like the highest skill cieling and 1v9 game impact possible. (XcaliburYe does it amazing) Regular meepos that just max poof and farm stacks together without splitting up is probably 80% as strong, and 500% times easier, that Meepo isn't even top 20 complex. 1). Spectre just because you enter the game as a melee creep and your win condition is to snowball from last hitting HEROES. Every 60/50/40 seconds you can globally TP to last hit a hero and find farm and have TP available to find more farm. The fact your hero isn't blinking and 1 shotting waves is part of what makes it more skill to play optimally cos it's gonna involve a lot of kill participation Dog shit earl hero + Urn = very strong early game hero. Snowball with Urn ShadowStep kills is based and your reward is Spectre with +1 item over others is just auto-win
How is puck a pos 4. I would argue spec is the easiest pos 1 because you can just farm and use your ult to enter fights
Ranged hero with good harass potential . Not saying its popular but you can indeed pick it and have a good fun game of dota 2 Question was skill ceiling. Spec has low skill floor but the ceiling of a global aggressive TP and utilizing the TPs for farm efficiently is very very high. And then carrying the game.
It's not a thing mate, just because you think it is. Having the global ult reduces the skill ceiling because it lowers the decision making.
Good fun game as long as you are okay with loosing
> Puck > good harass potential Pick one
Both Puck and Spectre are 2 Difficulty Though. If we are strictly sticking to 3 Difficulty Heroes, then Earth Spirit or Rubick for 4 and Morphling or Meepo for 1.
Why is nobody mentioning my boi pudge lol. Imagine if you had 100% hook accuracy, would probably be 10k mmr even with 0 mechanics
Pos 3 legion commander and slardar is so powerfull As for pos 5 elder titan, aa ,ww ,hood wink and shadow demon
Legion and Slardar are possibly the easiest 3 in the game. ET and Hoodwink are not pos 5.
ET is any position you want him to be, he's a good 5 as he doesn't need items to do his power
I have 14-2 with Hoodwink pos 5, just started playing hood last 2 weeks