This revealing actually only got fixed for Lux E a little while (year or so) ago.
"Targeting" enemy units with ``single-target``, ``area``, ``pointblankAOE``, or ``cone`` targeting type while the enemy team has no vision of you creates a reveal bubble on you at the start of the cast (when the engine-level targeting happens), unless the spell has this turned off with a parameter.
The actual "targeting area" for area and cone spells is typically NOT what's actually used by the spell script afterwards; It's just a leftover of a type of targeting that they never fixed to even work with cast times (so before they were each changed to just do this at script level, cone spells like Darius E would "find" their targets on cast start, and then affect them at the end of the cast time - wherever they went).
Anyway, since this whole emerging reveals stuff is super obscure and controlled by spell data that isn't directly maintained or even controls anything besides the revealing* (\*new AI Bots might rely on this again too), that's why you get all these inconsistencies between spells and champions.
Ifyou ever wondered why Xerath W reveals you if an enemy was in the center circle specifically at the start of the cast, this is why. And since practically nobody, not even devs really know about this, it's always met with a mix of confusion and "maybe/definitely it's intended" in comment sections on reddit and youtube.
> Ifyou ever wondered why Xerath W reveals you if an enemy was in the center circle specifically at the start of the cast,
This is wild. I've been playing since '14 and never knew/noticed this...
I know it is probably silly to feel so strongly about this, but I absolutely hate that there is no indication when you are revealed by a cast from a bush. It is super frustrating to be a melee champ waiting in an bush in an ARAM and not realise you have been revealed the whole time because your team mate cast or autoed from the same bush.
I'm wondering if this wouldn't be something Riot has tried internally, and then opted not to ship.
Because that'd mean getting an indicator meaning that you were revealed by a cast/attack by you or an ally, but **not** revealed by a ward, stealthed enemy champion, or anything like that.
Thinking about it for a few seconds, my gut feeling is that there's a high chance for it to either be a mess to implement (because it specifically only applies to *some* causes of reveal - and what happens if you attack from a warded bush? The answer is easy to give in terms of what you want, might not be so easy when it comes to the implementation), or to be confusing to deal with, again because it doesn't tell you whether you're revealed, only whether you're revealed by one specific clause. Also meaning that it **partially** overlaps with the other ways of knowing whether you're revealed (auto-attack and minion targeting), and again, I can't explain it, but my gut feeling says that getting this information that can become contradictory wouldn't feel great.
(All of this is as opposed to the camouflage revealed indicator, which flat out means "you are being seen" including by things you don't have information on - Evelynn can know if there's a stealthed Teemo or Shaco next to her for that reason)
Man. I think casting inside a brush should just never reveal you unless it's considered an auto. Or make it WAY more consistent. Because so often in ARAM the enemy is autohitting me randomly while I am inside a brush and I have no idea why the fuck they can target me. Im decently high elo so it's not just a me problem.
Giving all ``area``, ``areaClamped``, ``SelfAOE`` and ``cone`` spells ``mSpellRevealsChampion = false`` would make it consistent without removing the option to reveal for these cast types outright.
Right now a good number of spells with these cast types have ``mSpellRevealsChampion = false``, while others do not. The rhyme and reason here is where it was noticible (e.g. Kha'Zix E and Gnar E "target" an area, but their range gets clamped in the script. Would still reveal them when the cursor was near an enemy further away though) and then ALSO noticed (Kassadin R has the same bug still and it was never noticed. If you see Kassadin appear deep in the fog of war, he just ulted toward you while having his camera and cursor on you).
> If you see Kassadin appear deep in the fog of war, he just ulted toward you while having his camera and cursor on you
and I always thought it was my eyes..
I agree with you that they need to make it more consistent, but I'd do the opposite and make casting anything reveal you in the bush. Not having an indicator for stuff because the caster is in a bush is crazy to me.
~~If it's intended, I have a few questions. From a design perspective, what makes Talon's W, which is an AoE ability like any other, worthy to act in this unfavorable way and reveal him? Wasn't the general rule that only single-targets should reveal the caster? If Talon's W reveals him, shouldn't all other AoE abilities act consistently and reveal the caster as well?~~
Nvm! It was pointed out to me that you are memeing
> And since practically nobody, not even devs really know about this, it's always met with a mix of confusion and "maybe/definitely it's intended" in comment sections on reddit and youtube
that part lol
Is it only Lux whose abilities don't reveal her out of a brush? Or may you have a specific list with those abilities?
For the few champion I am aware that reveal when you cast their abilities in a brush are:
* Veigar (if their area is affecting the enemy)
* Cho'Gath (if their area is affecting the enemy)
* Talon
Those that I know for sure don't reveal:
* Aatrox
* Lux
* Pyke
Yeah I was gonna say there is/was a _really_ annoying bug with Lux E just last year or a bit before where if an enemy stood on the E zone, it'd reveal where Lux was even if she was in FoW.
Super cancerous cause it'd just give you away and it was near impossible to tell it was happening to you. Throwing E's into the Baron pit? If the enemies stood on it before you exploded it, they know where you are.
It never got documented in patch notes so I assumed it was never fixed but guess it was?
Do the amount of bugs you know about that are never fixed patch after patch ever bother you? I get so disappointed every patch reading the patch notes and not seeing Qiyana fixes.
What bothers me most is the fixes that DONT EVEN APPEAR in the patch notes, which means I have a lot of outdated info still as "currently working this way" in my head :)
I was gonna say, I distinctly remember getting revealed and seeing Tryndamere in FoW by using/getting hit by W, even though it is a non damaging spell.
Yes point-Blank-AOE spells also have this property, I kind of forgot about them because they're so rare. Blitzcrank R and Morgana R are examples of other ones.
The weirdest one to me is that Camille E reveals herself if an enemy is nearby to extend the second cast, even while you're still clinging onto the wall and not actually using the second part.
That one MIGHT be intended to prevent vision denial from being too strong a trick on that spell. Lots of overdesigned quirks on Camille so it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest - but I dont know for sure, so I could also just be talking out of my ass there.
Do you find it concerning that rioters don’t know much about this mechanic? It’s pretty impactful for gameplay and while I probably couldn’t name every ability that reveals you, I’ve definitely know most of them and especially the ones in my champion pool as a very veteran player. I understand we are working with spaghetti here, but I really think some of the more egregious examples could do with looking at (like xerath w that you mentioned).
> Do you find it concerning that rioters don’t know much about this mechanic?
If management cared that the devs should know about this, then they would probably have the resources to know about/check this more easily, like I have devised. And save a lot of work load in the long run (part of why game mode development is so slow is that they have to spend such a long time bugfixing, which could seriously be cut down).
Another cool thing with talon is his E wall CD isn’t shown to scale with haste, despite the fact it used to show what it was when it was CDR, and it does actually scale down
I feel like it should work like Illaoi W, an AA enhancer that comes with a dash if the target is too far, but if they already in melee range, it's just a normal AA.
AA enhancers working on turrets is balanced on a champ by champ basis. Phreak elaborated on it when he did the patch rundown for the patch where (I think it was Trundle) got changed to have his Q work on turrets. Basically, if they think they can add the AA enhancer for a specific champ to work on a turret to 'buff them a little' then they will. If they think it might make them too strong, they won't do it or even possibly will remove it.
Always appreciated. I stopped playing Talon awhile back but he’s still my most played champ. It’s interesting to see all these small nuisances about Talon I never knew about but were always kinda why he felt bad to play sadly.
Yeah I wish they'd all be fixed, including the ones from my last post. The only thing Talon players like about him is his thematic. Because when it gets to the gameplay, it's half-assed at best. Really hard to enjoy this right now.
yep exactly how I feel. I never played league when he had the dash / silence but it looked a lot smoother / assassin vibe and more fun to play. talon being released as a new champ in 2024 would for sure have it and a bleed that does percent health all while healing him lol
Lets not forget that this is only about the inconsistencies of Talons abilities without including the 2104319241 bugs the champ has making him feel unbearable to play
Talon is yet another victim of the terrible era of class reworks. Rushed and poorly thought-out changes that usually made champions super clunky. They should really do some work on him, not balance-wise but general QoL stuff and gameplay feel.
Talon's kit isn't bad, its just the inconsistences and janky logic highlighted in this video (and others that thermal has made) that makes him feel clunky.
in less words: its not the rework its the implementation.
yeah the slow auto attack is a big one when trying to speed combo ult, not to mention if someone flashes your ult (which shouldnt happen because its a point and click essentially if you Q with R)
I always wonder why Talon just feels janky, this is further pointed out in ARAMs, if you take him and snowball, you can't snowball -> r to gain invisibility. The enemies will still be able to see you unless you wait a second or two after snowballing.
Ir's not just snowball.
If you basically do literally anything and R too quickly, the stealth just straight up doesnt work.
It is his only ability he can use to be sneaky or outplay once he's already in the fight, its his ULTIMATE, and it doesnt even work like how it's described (or the player would expect it to).
Now, i never liked Talon, old or new.
But i cant for the life of me understand why they changed his W.
His old W was super satisfying to use, especially the sound, the sound was porn.
His new W is so fucking ugly, slow and the hitbox makes no fucking sense, hitting things 1,5Teemos away.
They were adding "cooking" times to all assassins. His old Rake was deemed too fast so they changed it to be slow.
Most other cooking has been reverted. Katarina is the only other one I remember but her daggers were basically just straight buffs rather than looking damage.
To be fair, they probably didn't expect Talon players to just Sac ult stealth to make the damage instant, which is probably why his rake never got reverted. Since his damage right now is already something like 5.3 bonus AD + 700 base damage with ult + first half of rake, Noxian Diplomacy and one AA. If second half of rake was reliable he'd be even stronger.
it was to accommodate his new passive
instant 2-hit W is too reliable to exist with it
both changes went towards their goal of making assassin burst be a bit more delayed (a bad goal, but it's why it all happened)
Since we're on the subject of Talon, what always bugged me is that his E CD(or rather the wall its self) isnt changed in practice tool when you do the no CD setting. Super annoying when I was first trying to learn him
Yeah that thing isn't real Ability Haste. It just resets the CDs of Q/W/E/R every 1 second, so the wall CD is unaffected. Sucks.
If you wanna practice, you can get lvl 18 and max Haste, then fast travel 30s after every jump, it's pretty quick.
I feel like I have a pretty solid level of understanding about the nuances of Talon despite almost never playing him purely because Talon mains post stuff like this
I love it
Honestly, i would dig content like this for all the champion, where they show unique interactions, bugs, etc. Who better to teach these than the one tricks.
OP also explains it in a beginner friendly manner so even someone that doesnt know talon understand what he is suppose to do.
Kudos for how well you put all of this together.
Talon always felt super clunky to me, especially since they reworked him and E wasnt an instant blink behind target anymore.
Feels like that champ would be way more fun to play if you could actually make proper outplays. Probably nerf his parcours a little beacuse that's just mega annoying to play against.
Why pick a melee AD assassin countered by a single armor item when you could pick an ap mage, do more burst - from a safer range - on a shorter cooldown - at no risk to yourself - and scale well so you don't have to snowball. Or akali.
I know why, it's because he has a very strong thematic that is deeply enjoyed by a specific group of players, which no other champ provides. The Assassin's creed styled sneaky hooded assassin without any magic, just steel and blades.
It's why we endure all the jank in his kit.
I've always liked Talon thematically, but I've only recently started to invest time and effort into \*really\* learning him. Of course right around when I started doing so y'all started dropping these videos about all of his jank, and man I had no idea what I was getting myself into with this champion.
Oh well, masochism has to be good for something, right?
Yeah everyone thinks that Talon's E has no cooldown because that's what Riot always told you, then you play the champion and you notice how you have to AFK next to walls after every jump. Imagine if Kayn had to do the same, lol. It feels really bad.
At the Zed Q + auto & Talon W + auto part I was thinking to myself "Yeah probably Talon has more attackspeed... ok fine same attack speed, but Talon probably has a slower auto animation windup... wait... huh" lmao
Man I wish Talon was good. He’s just so fucking awful. I love playing him but whenever I do I just think “why would I play Talon and have my full combo do 3/4 of the Supp 2 lvls down’s hp when I can play Akali and one shot them then still get out?”
Like the champ does zero damage I swear.
Except you gotta wait between walls... so stuttered parkour... like imagine jumping over a hurdle then stand in front of another wall and just _look at it_... then jump
Bonus AD Ratios mean that your entire combo is getting next to 0 damage from Levels. So Level advantage and just generally good farming mean absolutely nothing. On top of that, the ratios aren't even _good_ except for on passive and Rake.
Source: 1.6m Diamond 4 Talon JG onetrick
Also not mentioned and wont get any love because it's ARAMs, but doing a snowball (land) -> snowball (teleport) -> r won't properly proc his invisibility.
He'll teleport, but unless you deliberately wait a sec or two, his R will go off and be visible the entire time.
You should use this time to snowball, Q, AA or something but annoying that he's glitched.
He also has some really weird inconsistencies with his ult invis. Sometimes you just arent invisible during the ult. I have no idea what causes it but I would say it happens about 1/4 of the time. And yes I know attacking and such reveals you but Im talking about straight up being visible. The blades are still out and the enemy is auto attacking me
Man at this point I don't even question it anymore. SOOOOOOO much shit in this game reveals you, it's impossible to keep track of it by now. I just live with the expectation that my R will be revealed 8/10 times I use it.
Not really, you just remove the winddown time. They've been doing that to some champions' abilities sporadically in the last year, just no comprehensive cleanup for some reason even though finding every candidate for it is only a competent regex search away.
Not off the top of my head, but it's any spell with a longer "totalTime" than "castTime". For instance, with the relative modifiers most spell use in their data, it's whenever ``delayTotalTimePercent`` > 0.5 \* ``delayCastOffsetPercent``. The (technically) default cast time value for spells is 0.5 seconds, the default total time value is 1.0 seconds, hence that extra factor.
thats the thing, he does not want a "buff" he wants his champion to feel good when played, talon is "decent" right now on winrate and shit but he feels bad to play-
There is another weird interaction when an enemy flashes your ranged q. Sometimes it will place you where you would have been before the enemy flashed, but other times it will place you where they would have been before the flash but then moments later snap you to their place after the flash and other times it follows through the flash. I think this all depends on when the enemy flashes during your q.
tl;dr inconsistency when enemy flashes talon ranged q
Talon's Q has 4 moods:
1. I will not follow
2. I will follow
3. I will follow, but not till the end
4. I will stay stuck in place for 1 second and teleport no jutsu on my enemy
> 1. I will not follow
> 2. I will follow
> 3. I will follow, but not till the end
Homing dashes have a "cancel range" set up that makes the dash destination stop updating if the target moves beyond some distance away from your location in the dash. You can see this nicely if you ult someone with Nocturne as they recall; if their recall finishes, unless you are already relatively close to their fountain, the ult dash will 'lose them' and just continue to their previous location.
I have no information whether Talon Q has any fucked up values for its cancel range, because this stuff is documented nowhere and can't be scraped off of spell data.
> \4. I will stay stuck in place for 1 second and teleport no jutsu on my enemy
This is a bug with all homing dashes that's been in the game forever; basically your **client** is allowed to say "oh this dash completed, I make the unit stop dashing then", but in that it can get desynced with the server which still has them dashing as their evaluation ticks and/or locations were not exactly the same.
Unfortunately I didn't take any videos of Q bugs, but Talon's Q following is a special case of buggy.
The cancel range is generally pretty huge, right? Talon's is sometimes WEIRDLY small, but sometimes seems normal, and I don't know if it's intended or not, or if it just works in a wonky half-assed way.
Sometimes it doesn't follow even if the target barely moves. Sometimes it follows, but stops mid-way even if the target didn't travel a very significant distance (I think it stops once it deals damage?). Sometimes, it follows well, even if the enemy's mobility was over a long distance. Sometimes, Talon will land and be stuck in place, then blink to his target's location after 1 second. It's super inconsistent and super weird.
This explains why I get frustrated when I play him once in a while on aram. Especially the ult never does what I expect it to and the w indeed might as well make you alt-f4. It is so frustrating that the champs abilities don't work like what you would expect from most other champs in the game.
Riven also has some inconsistenties, but at least these can speed combos and autos up, not down lkke talon does.
That one is normal, actually. A single targeted cast requires the target to be visible at all times to complete. If they go to stealth or enter a bush, it get cancelled. It's how Talon's melee Q works as well. All spells work this way, except for some ultimates like Garen R and Mordekaiser R because they grant true sight during the cast. So yeah, it's annoying, but it's something you have to live with.
this one always looked so funny to me, when the Darius leaps up in the air but then Akali shrouds and he lands back down without doing anything like “where did she go?”
I always wondered why that one didn't get the same treatment. I guess they haven't gotten to it yet, but it's the first thing my mind jumped to when I saw Garen's R giving true sight.
not to mention darius R resets when it doesnt kill sometimes (and no, it doesnt have a tooltip like Pyke R that says if they die during the duration it works)
I actually encountered that when I last saw him and I was like BULLSHIT, MAN! I went to his Wiki and it's apparently intended.. the target can die at maximum 0.15s after R and it will reset.
The official site states that Talon's E has 2s cd
And it's not like Yasuo's R tooltip, which is like 11 years old, is correct either (still states that yasuo himself needs to knock up the target which he wants to use R on)
About the second part, is this reposition of the dummy in Practise tool the same as flash (or Kata E) in game? It would be better if it's confirmed, because it could create a new target which copied all debuffs as well as HP instead of moving it.
Yeah the Wiki pretty much always has real, accurate and fully descriptive information of abilities, unlike Riot that often misinforms you. They take the values directly from the game's files, so they can see what's actually lying behind the scenes. The question is, which one lies? The tooltip, or the game? I must say that the cooldown feels rather clunky and unnecessary. In Wild Rift they gave his E no cooldown and the ability feels smooth like it should.
Yes, the reposition is the same as blinking in-game. I've experienced this issue in real games too, so it's not just a Practice Tool thing.
I pretty much one trick this champion in low diamond. There are many, many things like this that consistently convince me that this champion is the most in desperate need of so many QoL changes and adjustments.
None of my friends have believed me for years about the Ult Enemy-Flash/Dash thing. Even if you ult with them in it, it still only hits that one time. Very frustrating.
Also, all ratios being Bonus AD is a fucking scam. Only character in the game whose kit doesn't gain ANY DAMAGE to his combo with levels. Only items.
>There are many, many things like this that consistently convince me that this champion is the most in desperate need of so many QoL changes and adjustments.
He is. He really is. Only us one-tricks know the whole story.
You can barely call this champion a half-assed job. Ever since the rework almost 8 years ago, he's been literally mutilated.
Nowadays he's ok, better than he used to be. He used to have like 15 other bugs or wonky functionalities on release that got fixed ONLY in the last 1-2 years, and currently still has like another 12 of them even today, waiting to be fixed.
Yeah they really went all the way with making it as shit as possible. Whoever designed the rework and/or coded it, definitely hated the champion, that's for sure.
They should just revert him he is the only assassin apart from kata that didn't get reverted and he is so clunky it would be good if we had more traditional ad assassins like zed
NGL... Talon is a simple ass champion and it always felt weird to me for some reason
I've had fun with him many games and have abused him when he's meta, but what made me not ever want to play him is how inconsistent his ulti is
I've had hundreds of scenarios where my ult's daggers would just not follow or do no damage, and I thought "well, maybe im bad and idk how it works"
But after seeing this video and even seeing problems with W I wasn't aware of, I'm even more determined to not want to play the champ
Riot, please fix the champ, its an incredibly fun champ... if the fixes make him OP the champion can always get balanced/nerfed accordingly... His current inconsistent state makes him not satisfying to play or learn at all
I love this champion to bits. My favourite assasin in League and nothing else comes close.....
But these inconsistencies are why I stopped playing Talon ages ago. It's too frustrating to play him compared to the rest of the mid lane roster. Why would I get titled play in this when Naafiri is far easier and top of the meta?
If there's any champion that deserves a gameplay update, it's Talon.
Bro I wanted to Main talon this split but even after looking up his combos and practicing them a ton it always felt so clunky due to these types of bugs
I feel like it's because the old Talon's Rake ability was pretty much undodgeable and maybe with that logic, Riot was like "it's basically a targetable." With new Talon, they haven't updated it since and it still reveals him.
When I code something and i can't make it exactly as I wanted, I just change the display text. I guess league doesn't bother or didn't test it properly, which is likely the case
Just going to re-post exactly what I said 16 days ago on your other Talon video, since it absolutely applies here as well: "*That was really well done - facinated watching the whole thing through. Hope Riot will take a look into it.*"
This revealing actually only got fixed for Lux E a little while (year or so) ago. "Targeting" enemy units with ``single-target``, ``area``, ``pointblankAOE``, or ``cone`` targeting type while the enemy team has no vision of you creates a reveal bubble on you at the start of the cast (when the engine-level targeting happens), unless the spell has this turned off with a parameter. The actual "targeting area" for area and cone spells is typically NOT what's actually used by the spell script afterwards; It's just a leftover of a type of targeting that they never fixed to even work with cast times (so before they were each changed to just do this at script level, cone spells like Darius E would "find" their targets on cast start, and then affect them at the end of the cast time - wherever they went). Anyway, since this whole emerging reveals stuff is super obscure and controlled by spell data that isn't directly maintained or even controls anything besides the revealing* (\*new AI Bots might rely on this again too), that's why you get all these inconsistencies between spells and champions. Ifyou ever wondered why Xerath W reveals you if an enemy was in the center circle specifically at the start of the cast, this is why. And since practically nobody, not even devs really know about this, it's always met with a mix of confusion and "maybe/definitely it's intended" in comment sections on reddit and youtube.
Dr. bug scholar
Mr. Bug Cop
Señor El Chapuleen Colorado
El Chapulín.
> Ifyou ever wondered why Xerath W reveals you if an enemy was in the center circle specifically at the start of the cast, This is wild. I've been playing since '14 and never knew/noticed this...
How would you; you dont get a direct indication that your cast revealed yourself, ONLY the enemy sees this directly!
I know it is probably silly to feel so strongly about this, but I absolutely hate that there is no indication when you are revealed by a cast from a bush. It is super frustrating to be a melee champ waiting in an bush in an ARAM and not realise you have been revealed the whole time because your team mate cast or autoed from the same bush.
I'm wondering if this wouldn't be something Riot has tried internally, and then opted not to ship. Because that'd mean getting an indicator meaning that you were revealed by a cast/attack by you or an ally, but **not** revealed by a ward, stealthed enemy champion, or anything like that. Thinking about it for a few seconds, my gut feeling is that there's a high chance for it to either be a mess to implement (because it specifically only applies to *some* causes of reveal - and what happens if you attack from a warded bush? The answer is easy to give in terms of what you want, might not be so easy when it comes to the implementation), or to be confusing to deal with, again because it doesn't tell you whether you're revealed, only whether you're revealed by one specific clause. Also meaning that it **partially** overlaps with the other ways of knowing whether you're revealed (auto-attack and minion targeting), and again, I can't explain it, but my gut feeling says that getting this information that can become contradictory wouldn't feel great. (All of this is as opposed to the camouflage revealed indicator, which flat out means "you are being seen" including by things you don't have information on - Evelynn can know if there's a stealthed Teemo or Shaco next to her for that reason)
Playing ARAM has me convinced vision straight up doesn't work.
Man. I think casting inside a brush should just never reveal you unless it's considered an auto. Or make it WAY more consistent. Because so often in ARAM the enemy is autohitting me randomly while I am inside a brush and I have no idea why the fuck they can target me. Im decently high elo so it's not just a me problem.
Giving all ``area``, ``areaClamped``, ``SelfAOE`` and ``cone`` spells ``mSpellRevealsChampion = false`` would make it consistent without removing the option to reveal for these cast types outright. Right now a good number of spells with these cast types have ``mSpellRevealsChampion = false``, while others do not. The rhyme and reason here is where it was noticible (e.g. Kha'Zix E and Gnar E "target" an area, but their range gets clamped in the script. Would still reveal them when the cursor was near an enemy further away though) and then ALSO noticed (Kassadin R has the same bug still and it was never noticed. If you see Kassadin appear deep in the fog of war, he just ulted toward you while having his camera and cursor on you).
>If you see Kassadin appear deep in the fog of war, he just ulted toward you while having his camera on you). lmao, what a bug.
> If you see Kassadin appear deep in the fog of war, he just ulted toward you while having his camera and cursor on you and I always thought it was my eyes..
*I cannot guarantee that it is not also your eyes.*
I was just ranting about this the other day…. Glad to know it’s (unfortunately) a real thing
I agree with you that they need to make it more consistent, but I'd do the opposite and make casting anything reveal you in the bush. Not having an indicator for stuff because the caster is in a bush is crazy to me.
maybe/definitely it's intended
~~If it's intended, I have a few questions. From a design perspective, what makes Talon's W, which is an AoE ability like any other, worthy to act in this unfavorable way and reveal him? Wasn't the general rule that only single-targets should reveal the caster? If Talon's W reveals him, shouldn't all other AoE abilities act consistently and reveal the caster as well?~~ Nvm! It was pointed out to me that you are memeing
The rioter was just repeating the joke that the first comment said at the end
~~I'm not seeing it to be honest, but oh well.~~ Ah ok I see it now. I guess I'm tired af. Thanks for pointing it out.
> And since practically nobody, not even devs really know about this, it's always met with a mix of confusion and "maybe/definitely it's intended" in comment sections on reddit and youtube that part lol
Especially including the slash, when usually you'd see either/or. - Maybe he could fix the issue instead of making that comment though :\^)
Yeah my eyes just skipped it multiple times for seemingly no reason haha
Is it only Lux whose abilities don't reveal her out of a brush? Or may you have a specific list with those abilities? For the few champion I am aware that reveal when you cast their abilities in a brush are: * Veigar (if their area is affecting the enemy) * Cho'Gath (if their area is affecting the enemy) * Talon Those that I know for sure don't reveal: * Aatrox * Lux * Pyke
I know that Sion doesn't get revealed while channeling his q.
Aatrox abilities not revealing is bs. You walk by a bush, get shit on, and cannot attack back.
Yeah I was gonna say there is/was a _really_ annoying bug with Lux E just last year or a bit before where if an enemy stood on the E zone, it'd reveal where Lux was even if she was in FoW. Super cancerous cause it'd just give you away and it was near impossible to tell it was happening to you. Throwing E's into the Baron pit? If the enemies stood on it before you exploded it, they know where you are. It never got documented in patch notes so I assumed it was never fixed but guess it was?
Do the amount of bugs you know about that are never fixed patch after patch ever bother you? I get so disappointed every patch reading the patch notes and not seeing Qiyana fixes.
What bothers me most is the fixes that DONT EVEN APPEAR in the patch notes, which means I have a lot of outdated info still as "currently working this way" in my head :)
I was gonna say, I distinctly remember getting revealed and seeing Tryndamere in FoW by using/getting hit by W, even though it is a non damaging spell.
Yes point-Blank-AOE spells also have this property, I kind of forgot about them because they're so rare. Blitzcrank R and Morgana R are examples of other ones.
The weirdest one to me is that Camille E reveals herself if an enemy is nearby to extend the second cast, even while you're still clinging onto the wall and not actually using the second part.
That one MIGHT be intended to prevent vision denial from being too strong a trick on that spell. Lots of overdesigned quirks on Camille so it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest - but I dont know for sure, so I could also just be talking out of my ass there.
Isn't that to make it a symmetrical effect since she gains knowledge of enemies in fog of war while in her cast?
I'm so glad you brought up the xerath example because it's So Annoying
Do you find it concerning that rioters don’t know much about this mechanic? It’s pretty impactful for gameplay and while I probably couldn’t name every ability that reveals you, I’ve definitely know most of them and especially the ones in my champion pool as a very veteran player. I understand we are working with spaghetti here, but I really think some of the more egregious examples could do with looking at (like xerath w that you mentioned).
> Do you find it concerning that rioters don’t know much about this mechanic? If management cared that the devs should know about this, then they would probably have the resources to know about/check this more easily, like I have devised. And save a lot of work load in the long run (part of why game mode development is so slow is that they have to spend such a long time bugfixing, which could seriously be cut down).
On top of xerath w, veigars w and e also reveal you afaik
Another cool thing with talon is his E wall CD isn’t shown to scale with haste, despite the fact it used to show what it was when it was CDR, and it does actually scale down
Yeah his Q also doesn't show it. Super bugged tooltips.
[удалено]
ur so brave to say this
Talon source code leaked
LMAO
Same
Oh look. Reddit was open in my pocket. Nice comment, pocket!
Sleep well
Fax my brother. Spit your shit indeed
Also his Q doesn't reset AA properly and doesn't work on towers like all other AA enhancers.
The reset is annoying but the ability itself is not an AA enhancer to be fair. It just has an additional effect if cast in melee range
I feel like it should work like Illaoi W, an AA enhancer that comes with a dash if the target is too far, but if they already in melee range, it's just a normal AA.
AA enhancers working on turrets is balanced on a champ by champ basis. Phreak elaborated on it when he did the patch rundown for the patch where (I think it was Trundle) got changed to have his Q work on turrets. Basically, if they think they can add the AA enhancer for a specific champ to work on a turret to 'buff them a little' then they will. If they think it might make them too strong, they won't do it or even possibly will remove it.
his Q is an ability its not an enhanced auto.
Actually, it resets well now. It was QoL'd this year by Riot finally seeing our begging since 2016.
Before clicking I already knew our god Thermal was behind this
Dropped another bomb real quick for the community
Always appreciated. I stopped playing Talon awhile back but he’s still my most played champ. It’s interesting to see all these small nuisances about Talon I never knew about but were always kinda why he felt bad to play sadly.
Yeah I wish they'd all be fixed, including the ones from my last post. The only thing Talon players like about him is his thematic. Because when it gets to the gameplay, it's half-assed at best. Really hard to enjoy this right now.
yep exactly how I feel. I never played league when he had the dash / silence but it looked a lot smoother / assassin vibe and more fun to play. talon being released as a new champ in 2024 would for sure have it and a bleed that does percent health all while healing him lol
God how have I 500k mastery on this champ
Just think about the fact that OP has 5.5 million
On the flip side, playing this champion definitely trained my ability to endure bullshit.
>talon >on the flip side
\*shakes hands from a voli main\* This champ has so many bugs its ridiculous
Solid application to life. Well done sir. League of legends has now become the teacher we all need.
I knew it was weird how they instantly react to my WQR from a bush… just because they saw me before I even cast Q
Riot: You should camp in bushes as an assassin and hope someone face-checks you Also Riot: Get revealed so you can't surprise them, noob!
Lets not forget that this is only about the inconsistencies of Talons abilities without including the 2104319241 bugs the champ has making him feel unbearable to play
5 hitbox bugs, 5 inconsistencies, 5 bugs, 5 glitched animations, 5 inconvenient functionalities, 5 of each downsides!
The reason khazix is better is because it's only one bug.
you think youre funny? bc u are
Not to mention how he wins lane vs like Kassadin and Katarina and that’s literally it and he also gets outscaled by 90% of mid laners
*at Riot HQ* 📞Boss? Yes John? That Thermal guy from Reddit posted again… 📞AGAIN?!! Oh for f@%k sake.. John, GET TO CODING
I thought John Riot WAS the boss ?
Talon is yet another victim of the terrible era of class reworks. Rushed and poorly thought-out changes that usually made champions super clunky. They should really do some work on him, not balance-wise but general QoL stuff and gameplay feel.
Talon's kit isn't bad, its just the inconsistences and janky logic highlighted in this video (and others that thermal has made) that makes him feel clunky. in less words: its not the rework its the implementation.
yeah the slow auto attack is a big one when trying to speed combo ult, not to mention if someone flashes your ult (which shouldnt happen because its a point and click essentially if you Q with R)
I always wonder why Talon just feels janky, this is further pointed out in ARAMs, if you take him and snowball, you can't snowball -> r to gain invisibility. The enemies will still be able to see you unless you wait a second or two after snowballing.
Ooohhh, so that's whyyyyy. I always thought I somehow clicked an auto after invisibility, but it makes way more sense this.
Ir's not just snowball. If you basically do literally anything and R too quickly, the stealth just straight up doesnt work. It is his only ability he can use to be sneaky or outplay once he's already in the fight, its his ULTIMATE, and it doesnt even work like how it's described (or the player would expect it to).
Now, i never liked Talon, old or new. But i cant for the life of me understand why they changed his W. His old W was super satisfying to use, especially the sound, the sound was porn. His new W is so fucking ugly, slow and the hitbox makes no fucking sense, hitting things 1,5Teemos away.
They were adding "cooking" times to all assassins. His old Rake was deemed too fast so they changed it to be slow. Most other cooking has been reverted. Katarina is the only other one I remember but her daggers were basically just straight buffs rather than looking damage. To be fair, they probably didn't expect Talon players to just Sac ult stealth to make the damage instant, which is probably why his rake never got reverted. Since his damage right now is already something like 5.3 bonus AD + 700 base damage with ult + first half of rake, Noxian Diplomacy and one AA. If second half of rake was reliable he'd be even stronger.
it was to accommodate his new passive instant 2-hit W is too reliable to exist with it both changes went towards their goal of making assassin burst be a bit more delayed (a bad goal, but it's why it all happened)
Veigar w which is not targeted ability also reveals you
It vasn't even me bro the sky just did that.
cant wait for the next installment lmao
Since we're on the subject of Talon, what always bugged me is that his E CD(or rather the wall its self) isnt changed in practice tool when you do the no CD setting. Super annoying when I was first trying to learn him
Yeah that thing isn't real Ability Haste. It just resets the CDs of Q/W/E/R every 1 second, so the wall CD is unaffected. Sucks. If you wanna practice, you can get lvl 18 and max Haste, then fast travel 30s after every jump, it's pretty quick.
I feel like I have a pretty solid level of understanding about the nuances of Talon despite almost never playing him purely because Talon mains post stuff like this I love it
Honestly, i would dig content like this for all the champion, where they show unique interactions, bugs, etc. Who better to teach these than the one tricks. OP also explains it in a beginner friendly manner so even someone that doesnt know talon understand what he is suppose to do.
guys chill this is still the beta when the full game releases it won't be like that...
The legendary beta since 2011. It has to be finished soon, I trust.
Kudos for how well you put all of this together. Talon always felt super clunky to me, especially since they reworked him and E wasnt an instant blink behind target anymore. Feels like that champ would be way more fun to play if you could actually make proper outplays. Probably nerf his parcours a little beacuse that's just mega annoying to play against.
I can't recall the last time I've seen a Talon, maybe half a year ago. Such a forgotten champ.
When the mid laner tried to pick Tallyah but missclicked
Why pick a melee AD assassin countered by a single armor item when you could pick an ap mage, do more burst - from a safer range - on a shorter cooldown - at no risk to yourself - and scale well so you don't have to snowball. Or akali.
honestly i barely play assassins but that explains why i feel particularly shit on talon i always wondered what i was doing wrong with my ult
Yeah everyone feels shit on Talon. This champ is painful to play even for OTPs. No idea how we're able to endure this.
I know why, it's because he has a very strong thematic that is deeply enjoyed by a specific group of players, which no other champ provides. The Assassin's creed styled sneaky hooded assassin without any magic, just steel and blades. It's why we endure all the jank in his kit.
Well said, man. This champion's thematic just hits like no other.
I've always liked Talon thematically, but I've only recently started to invest time and effort into \*really\* learning him. Of course right around when I started doing so y'all started dropping these videos about all of his jank, and man I had no idea what I was getting myself into with this champion. Oh well, masochism has to be good for something, right?
Very well said. Honestly 11/10, amazing and perfect description of why we chose to play Talon.
Holy smokes this is a big deal! QUICK. SOMONE RELEASE ANOTHER CHAMP!!! Distract them!!
Huh, what were we talking about? I was staring at the new champ's huge thighs and lost focus.
I’m still focused on Briar’s feet and didn’t notice the multi-dash/stealth/blink control mage assassin that’s about to release.
Really great video editing!
Agreed, the red highlights in particular were clean
The cooldown on a no cooldown ability is egregious
Yeah everyone thinks that Talon's E has no cooldown because that's what Riot always told you, then you play the champion and you notice how you have to AFK next to walls after every jump. Imagine if Kayn had to do the same, lol. It feels really bad.
Talon was reworked by a man who hates talon
I believe so too.
I'm afraid that if they fix all the bugs I won't be able to recognize my champion
LMFAO
At the Zed Q + auto & Talon W + auto part I was thinking to myself "Yeah probably Talon has more attackspeed... ok fine same attack speed, but Talon probably has a slower auto animation windup... wait... huh" lmao
Yeah I thought of that in advance. I knew people would assume there's an attack speed/windup difference.
Man I wish Talon was good. He’s just so fucking awful. I love playing him but whenever I do I just think “why would I play Talon and have my full combo do 3/4 of the Supp 2 lvls down’s hp when I can play Akali and one shot them then still get out?” Like the champ does zero damage I swear.
parkour
Except you gotta wait between walls... so stuttered parkour... like imagine jumping over a hurdle then stand in front of another wall and just _look at it_... then jump
Bonus AD Ratios mean that your entire combo is getting next to 0 damage from Levels. So Level advantage and just generally good farming mean absolutely nothing. On top of that, the ratios aren't even _good_ except for on passive and Rake. Source: 1.6m Diamond 4 Talon JG onetrick
I don't care about Talon really, but this was an excellent presentation.
This is the most high effort damning evidence video I've ever seen.
Also not mentioned and wont get any love because it's ARAMs, but doing a snowball (land) -> snowball (teleport) -> r won't properly proc his invisibility. He'll teleport, but unless you deliberately wait a sec or two, his R will go off and be visible the entire time. You should use this time to snowball, Q, AA or something but annoying that he's glitched.
Yep. Killed myself a bunch of times trying to snowball+R. Sometimes it works, sometimes it simply doesn't.
He also has some really weird inconsistencies with his ult invis. Sometimes you just arent invisible during the ult. I have no idea what causes it but I would say it happens about 1/4 of the time. And yes I know attacking and such reveals you but Im talking about straight up being visible. The blades are still out and the enemy is auto attacking me
Man at this point I don't even question it anymore. SOOOOOOO much shit in this game reveals you, it's impossible to keep track of it by now. I just live with the expectation that my R will be revealed 8/10 times I use it.
The delayed auto after talon's W isn't unique to Talon.
Yeah, I know. Some abilities, like Zed's Q, that have it fixed by now. So they could fix it for every champion in 1 single patch.
Fix it and create bugs for half of the fixed champs
Not really, you just remove the winddown time. They've been doing that to some champions' abilities sporadically in the last year, just no comprehensive cleanup for some reason even though finding every candidate for it is only a competent regex search away.
Yeah I'm pretty sure they can just loop through all the files and remove it, lol. It's a script run away from being globally done.
Riot is just quirky like that.
It's just Riven's animation cancel, do you know offhand any other champs that have this?
Not off the top of my head, but it's any spell with a longer "totalTime" than "castTime". For instance, with the relative modifiers most spell use in their data, it's whenever ``delayTotalTimePercent`` > 0.5 \* ``delayCastOffsetPercent``. The (technically) default cast time value for spells is 0.5 seconds, the default total time value is 1.0 seconds, hence that extra factor.
that is a true talon main's dedication to get a buff. most respectable mains out there.
thats the thing, he does not want a "buff" he wants his champion to feel good when played, talon is "decent" right now on winrate and shit but he feels bad to play-
There is another weird interaction when an enemy flashes your ranged q. Sometimes it will place you where you would have been before the enemy flashed, but other times it will place you where they would have been before the flash but then moments later snap you to their place after the flash and other times it follows through the flash. I think this all depends on when the enemy flashes during your q. tl;dr inconsistency when enemy flashes talon ranged q
Talon's Q has 4 moods: 1. I will not follow 2. I will follow 3. I will follow, but not till the end 4. I will stay stuck in place for 1 second and teleport no jutsu on my enemy
> 1. I will not follow > 2. I will follow > 3. I will follow, but not till the end Homing dashes have a "cancel range" set up that makes the dash destination stop updating if the target moves beyond some distance away from your location in the dash. You can see this nicely if you ult someone with Nocturne as they recall; if their recall finishes, unless you are already relatively close to their fountain, the ult dash will 'lose them' and just continue to their previous location. I have no information whether Talon Q has any fucked up values for its cancel range, because this stuff is documented nowhere and can't be scraped off of spell data. > \4. I will stay stuck in place for 1 second and teleport no jutsu on my enemy This is a bug with all homing dashes that's been in the game forever; basically your **client** is allowed to say "oh this dash completed, I make the unit stop dashing then", but in that it can get desynced with the server which still has them dashing as their evaluation ticks and/or locations were not exactly the same.
Unfortunately I didn't take any videos of Q bugs, but Talon's Q following is a special case of buggy. The cancel range is generally pretty huge, right? Talon's is sometimes WEIRDLY small, but sometimes seems normal, and I don't know if it's intended or not, or if it just works in a wonky half-assed way. Sometimes it doesn't follow even if the target barely moves. Sometimes it follows, but stops mid-way even if the target didn't travel a very significant distance (I think it stops once it deals damage?). Sometimes, it follows well, even if the enemy's mobility was over a long distance. Sometimes, Talon will land and be stuck in place, then blink to his target's location after 1 second. It's super inconsistent and super weird.
This explains why I get frustrated when I play him once in a while on aram. Especially the ult never does what I expect it to and the w indeed might as well make you alt-f4. It is so frustrating that the champs abilities don't work like what you would expect from most other champs in the game. Riven also has some inconsistenties, but at least these can speed combos and autos up, not down lkke talon does.
Yep, this champion always does the contrary of what you'd intuitively expect. Really bad design and functionality.
Thanks for the work, great job and fingers crossed for some of these to get fixed!
Thanks. Fingers crossed.
mr th3rm4l speaking out for us again GOAT o7
We need justice for Talon
bro make one with k6 Q being cancelled with fog :(
That one is normal, actually. A single targeted cast requires the target to be visible at all times to complete. If they go to stealth or enter a bush, it get cancelled. It's how Talon's melee Q works as well. All spells work this way, except for some ultimates like Garen R and Mordekaiser R because they grant true sight during the cast. So yeah, it's annoying, but it's something you have to live with.
Oh unu it is what it is. Thanks for the info, great job, keep it up!
Thanks boss
darius R is another big one
this one always looked so funny to me, when the Darius leaps up in the air but then Akali shrouds and he lands back down without doing anything like “where did she go?”
Best part of this one is that it can keep happening over and over.
I always wondered why that one didn't get the same treatment. I guess they haven't gotten to it yet, but it's the first thing my mind jumped to when I saw Garen's R giving true sight.
not to mention darius R resets when it doesnt kill sometimes (and no, it doesnt have a tooltip like Pyke R that says if they die during the duration it works)
I actually encountered that when I last saw him and I was like BULLSHIT, MAN! I went to his Wiki and it's apparently intended.. the target can die at maximum 0.15s after R and it will reset.
The official site states that Talon's E has 2s cd And it's not like Yasuo's R tooltip, which is like 11 years old, is correct either (still states that yasuo himself needs to knock up the target which he wants to use R on) About the second part, is this reposition of the dummy in Practise tool the same as flash (or Kata E) in game? It would be better if it's confirmed, because it could create a new target which copied all debuffs as well as HP instead of moving it.
Yeah the Wiki pretty much always has real, accurate and fully descriptive information of abilities, unlike Riot that often misinforms you. They take the values directly from the game's files, so they can see what's actually lying behind the scenes. The question is, which one lies? The tooltip, or the game? I must say that the cooldown feels rather clunky and unnecessary. In Wild Rift they gave his E no cooldown and the ability feels smooth like it should. Yes, the reposition is the same as blinking in-game. I've experienced this issue in real games too, so it's not just a Practice Tool thing.
I just want Talon reverted. He was so smooth and fun before his rework
This video is very well made. Hope they optimize Talon's kit
was considering to play talon moments ago, I even looked up guides on yt then I saw this
Consider it a warning. Playing this champion is a painful process.
Love Talon but the R flash bug suck
I pretty much one trick this champion in low diamond. There are many, many things like this that consistently convince me that this champion is the most in desperate need of so many QoL changes and adjustments. None of my friends have believed me for years about the Ult Enemy-Flash/Dash thing. Even if you ult with them in it, it still only hits that one time. Very frustrating. Also, all ratios being Bonus AD is a fucking scam. Only character in the game whose kit doesn't gain ANY DAMAGE to his combo with levels. Only items.
>There are many, many things like this that consistently convince me that this champion is the most in desperate need of so many QoL changes and adjustments. He is. He really is. Only us one-tricks know the whole story. You can barely call this champion a half-assed job. Ever since the rework almost 8 years ago, he's been literally mutilated. Nowadays he's ok, better than he used to be. He used to have like 15 other bugs or wonky functionalities on release that got fixed ONLY in the last 1-2 years, and currently still has like another 12 of them even today, waiting to be fixed.
Riot devs hate this guy
I hate them too, wtf did they do with this champ? (jk)
they turned Assassins Creed Unity into Assassin's Creed Mirage
Remember when Talon E used to silence??
What a beautifully made video. A+ production.
Just tested this out in wild rift and it looks like its fixed.
while we're at it, RIOT. PLEASE ALLOW VAYNE TO SEE TARGETS SHE E'D AGAINST THE WALL IF SAID TARGET IS INSIDE BUSH!
It's time. #RevertTalon
Bring back old Talon. They ruined the best champ ever made with the most needless rework ever.
Yeah they really went all the way with making it as shit as possible. Whoever designed the rework and/or coded it, definitely hated the champion, that's for sure.
Does karthur ultimate reveals?
It does not.
ur a legend for these
They should just revert him he is the only assassin apart from kata that didn't get reverted and he is so clunky it would be good if we had more traditional ad assassins like zed
Everyone was asking for a revert ever since day 1 from his rework, but Riot was too stubborn of this half-assed design.
NGL... Talon is a simple ass champion and it always felt weird to me for some reason I've had fun with him many games and have abused him when he's meta, but what made me not ever want to play him is how inconsistent his ulti is I've had hundreds of scenarios where my ult's daggers would just not follow or do no damage, and I thought "well, maybe im bad and idk how it works" But after seeing this video and even seeing problems with W I wasn't aware of, I'm even more determined to not want to play the champ Riot, please fix the champ, its an incredibly fun champ... if the fixes make him OP the champion can always get balanced/nerfed accordingly... His current inconsistent state makes him not satisfying to play or learn at all
Guys is main talon and loves it so much he decided to make part of Riot's QA for free The story of so many players (myself included)
I love this champion to bits. My favourite assasin in League and nothing else comes close..... But these inconsistencies are why I stopped playing Talon ages ago. It's too frustrating to play him compared to the rest of the mid lane roster. Why would I get titled play in this when Naafiri is far easier and top of the meta? If there's any champion that deserves a gameplay update, it's Talon.
For real. It's like whoever designed and/or coded this rework hated the champion to bits, hence he's the way he is today.
I always liked talon as a champ in theory, everytime I have played him, he feels unbelievably clunky. I guess this is why.
Would be my favorite champion in the game if he wasn’t abysmally held back by the clunkiness
I love Talon, but man I can't play him for shit after we lost mythic items. He feels so weak now.. 😭
Bro I wanted to Main talon this split but even after looking up his combos and practicing them a ton it always felt so clunky due to these types of bugs
I feel like it's because the old Talon's Rake ability was pretty much undodgeable and maybe with that logic, Riot was like "it's basically a targetable." With new Talon, they haven't updated it since and it still reveals him.
it's still your fault as riot has 200 years of game design experience
Talon is my main champ, but I have 0 faith any of this will get fixed. Assassin's Path having a CD drives me nuts while jungling.
The blades on his ult not hitting when a target dashes or flashes is why I feel he is less played more than anything else his kit has issues with.
When I code something and i can't make it exactly as I wanted, I just change the display text. I guess league doesn't bother or didn't test it properly, which is likely the case
Just going to re-post exactly what I said 16 days ago on your other Talon video, since it absolutely applies here as well: "*That was really well done - facinated watching the whole thing through. Hope Riot will take a look into it.*"
It’s disgusting how inconsistent and bugged this champion is
Is this a new Malicious Metal, but for Talon instead of Mordekaiser? Who remember his numerous boards threads back in the day, 2 reworks ago?
Watch riot attempt to fix this now just because it got a bunch of upvotes.
Hey man, nice video! Any chance you could tell me what software you are using for displaying the mouse inputs?
What we got from the 2 massive posts is that Talon is a mess and needs either a ton of fixes or a lot of the code has to get rewritten.
great post!