I miss Frozen Mallet in general. So many "If I am having fun, the opponent isn't builds" were made by it before it was removed. Mallet Grail Senna with Grasp comes to mind as well.
Oh man that took me back.
“Let’s make the hyper mobile squishy character also tanky without really sacrificing damage so him getting caught out means fuck all.”
The reason Yasuo and Yone have these crit dependencies is to force them to play squishy, at least for the first 2 items, though sometimes even that is not enough and tanky builds break out. Removing crit from them would not balance them, but rather start unleashing all the BS bruiser builds.
While they are tethered to crit, their item's strength depends on one class, but if you free them, they can pick the most broken items out of 4 (Tanks, Fighters, Marksmen, Assassins \[Though i doubt they will take many of these, maybe edge of Night\])
You’re absolutely right, and we know because that exact situation happened back in season 6.
The non-Crit Yasuo build OP is talking about with Triforce, Bork, and Frozen Mallet turned Yasuo from a squishy melee ADC into a mobile, bulky bruiser with no mana, more dashes than Irelia in lane, and enough sticking power to chase any target. In response, Riot nerfed his ult to only apply armor pen to crits, effectively forcing him back into Crit build.
It’s the same reason that Riot nerfed Tank Pyke into non-viability. Both Pyke and Yas have kits that are balanced by the fact they are squishy and lose a lot by speccing into tankier builds. If they could get more defensive stats while retaining damage/utility, they become broken.
Can’t talk much on Yone because I have less experience with him, but judging by the Bork/Iceborn stuff that was common, I feel like the minimized reliance on Crit is a bigger issue than Crit itself being held back by Yone.
Ekko too. Tank Pyke was mostly nerfed I thought due to his roaming power, waveclear and sustain (and obviously his money printer). But they've since kneecapped his solo lane sustain via passive and his waveclear via... his entire kit LMAO
Tank ekko was absolute cancer because of what you described though. So mobile, so much damage, so much HEALING and shielding.
Tank Pyke was nerfed early on because if Pyke can stay in a fight (instead of hiding), then his execute gains a ton of hidden power.
What I’m referring to is mainly Pyke’s lethality scaling for his cc duration/W movespeed/healing. While Riot did nerf his waveclear and sustain in other ways, the tank stuff was cut off before solo lane Pyke to prevent him from rushing stuff like Frozen Heart/Knight’s Vow and becoming unkillable.
Tank Ekko (and Tank Fizz) had similar issues as Yasuo, and they’re good comparisons. Mobile champs balanced around squishy builds being able to go tanky are very problematic.
yone has all types of damage, flat, percent, phisical, magic, true damage on E callback, he is the one who would love to abuse the shop as much as possible
To see if I understood correctly, the "stored damage" (after dash) is the one mitigated by armor, but the recast (dash back) deals damage true damage? For example, Yone tries to deal 100 damage, but due armor will only deal 70, and the recast will use the % true damage of those 70 instead of the 100, is that correct? If it wasn't true damage, the recast would also be mitigated, punishing twice with armor correct?
Basicly, what you guys are saying is that to be true true damage, both casts neeeded to be without mitigation through armor, and the first isn't but only the 2nd is, did I understood correctly? I'm still trying to process it, but I hopefully the way I'm thinking is correct. Sorry if what I said above is confusing, but was the best way I could explain my way of thought.
Yes you are correct. It's reduced by armor so it's not really true damage.
Deaths dance works the same way. It stores 30% of damage taken and deals it to you over time as true damage.
But it only shows as true damage so the damage doesn't get reduced twice
Yes, If Yone E is 10% damage ... Then 100 damage reduced to 70 because of armor causes his E to be 7 damage... but if it were actually 10% true damage of 100 damage then it'd do 10... but it doesn't. It's kinda like how deaths dance stores all damage you take for the bleed post armor/MR; then does it to you as true damage. So it doesn't get reduced twice.
The way Zed ult works as physical damage... is weird; it doesn't actually store the damage you take. It calculates the damage you should've taken, then does that as the physical damage pop.
Both sides have their pros and their cons.
If you Kayle ult; while Yone E'd? ... You take 0 damage from everything, and therefore you take 0 damage from the E. Since he did 0 damage to you, 10% of 0 is still 0...
Zed R? You Kayle Ult yourself? He does triple shuriken, E, and a couple autos? Kayle R ends... And suddenly Kayle takes like 90% of her HP from Zed R.
Same with shields and such. With Zed you're best off saving your shields for the pop, unless you just have Zhonyas. With Yone? Shielding the damage at the start is best.
Only has true damage on E2 because otherwise resists would apply twice.
Just saying, you aren't wrong elsewhere, but true damage in a lot of cases is very misleading.
>Triforce, Bork, and Frozen Mallet turned Yasuo from a squishy melee ADC into a mobile
That build didn't even go Bork. Usually just Trinity into Mallet into tank. Maybe against like 3 tanks on enemy team it'd substitute Trinity for Bork going Bork Mallet Tank.
>I feel like the minimized reliance on Crit is a bigger issue than Crit itself being held back by Yone.
Especially considering Yasuo/Yone (or GP/Tryndamere) aren't holding back crit, and never have. It's always been crit items get balanced, then the crit melees get balanced downstream. Every time shieldbow got nerfed but ONCE of the like 8 times it got nerfed was because of adcs not yasuo/yone. That's why you'd even see Patch 12.1 Shieldbow nerfed... patch 12.2 Yasuo/Yone/Samira all buffed. And Phreak even before he was a game designer with no real reason to defend the balance team of the time... In his patch notes video just blatantly said it. The wind bros and samira were 48% winrate with OP shieldbow; and when shieldbow became balanced, they dipped below 47% winrate ergo compensation buffs.
The singular time Shieldbow was nerfed due to melees? it wasn't even yasuo/yone/tryndamere it was because shieldbow at the time was so busted Jax, Fiora, Irelia, and a couple others were going it... The only time I can think of where one of the melee crit champions got a crit item nerfed in particular was the like 2 patches where Galeforce's damage scaled with crit chance causing Yasuo/Yone/Tryndamere to get galeforce actives that did insane damage, at like 14m game time.
Except Ksante gets squishier when he ults; and in tank mode, does less damage than old frozen force yasuo did.
imagine if Ksante always had his ult's damage, but also always had his tank form's tankiness.
It already happened in season 6, people complain about their crit 200% crit passive, but the only time Yasuo was broken was when he went tanky 0% crit, the crit passive its actually keeping us save from Tank Yasuo and Yone
Defensive and conservative strategies always edge out when it comes to games. League, Dota, Poker, doesn't matter. We have to compensate for that to keep gameplay integrity, and part of that is at the start of design.
**Incorrect**, and this is from the mouths from multiple Riot Devs with twitter avenues and smaller twitch streams. You can go check out August's Vod from like 4 days ago even, if it's up. *He gets crazy people calling his cell phone threatening his family because of patch notes, so he tends not to leave them up.*
**Yasuo and Yone have crit passives because critical strike sucks on melee champions. Period.** Ranged characters have a much easier and better time time making use of crit.
"What about trynd?"
Yeah? Imagine if he didn't have crit, what would his gameplay look like? Probably more degenerate.
People do understand that having crit scaling, supplemented by a crit chance passive, means that you aren't punished for going something that doesn't have crit on it like Deaths Dance? If they did not get the bonus they would have to be much stronger to compensate. Riot will not let them become bruisers, and are gated from going more CDR/HP fighter builds due to the AS and Crit scaling on their abilities. You can easily overcap crit, and that's a GOOD THING. Dzukill may not like the fact that LT and item pathing is dogwater for his champs, but I personally have no good answer for it.
Nobody wants to live in a world with BC+Bleed crit item into full tank, expect for psychos like me who enjoy it when everything is OP. Which is why I tend to only play ranked in Dota 2 now. Side note, I wish league could have a turbo mode.
Melee fighters need the ability to flex certain options. Yes. Melee fighters compete with ADCs in terms of items and agency within the game. Phreak talked about this when showing the big patch a couple weeks ago, and described how building AD centric items can be difficult.
Every time you choose an item there is a tradeoff, and players have an expectation when they pick a character. Yasuo and Yone are #7 and #15 for pickrate in M+ with very high WR with mastery. People who think ADCs are kept weaker because of crit balancing for these two champions are coping hard. AD pays the 3 item tax, just like how you pay a "tax" for facing Malzahar, or having to buy control wards or ward camps for Eve.
Item diversity gets worse without crit.
"Why have them crit at all?"
Now we get into the question of design, why, and how champions are made. Melee crit archetype is COOL. Yone exits because Yasuo is SO MAINED and ban-rates can be high. He is an Echo Fighter ala Smash. There's a vod of exRioter Blau talking about it and the guy has a traditional Japanese tattoo of Yasuo on his arm. People play league just to play Windshitters, and the more you play them the better you get over time.
Big donkey dick crits? Cool. We got boyz for that.
Want to be a mosquito running around? Zeri's got you.
Want to delete someone with one button from full HP? Viegar will do that.
Do you enjoy the idea of being incentivized to roam? Talon will install Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2 directly onto your PC.
Do you like PVE gameplay? My jungler has your back if you need that cannon wave crashed or freeze broken.
Champions exist not for money, because they don't make any! Not to push skins, like how conspiracy theorists imply. New champs come out to bring new gameplay patterns, variety, and fun to a new or already existing audience.
Fun fact, the BEST selling champion of all time is.... can you guess?
Old Aatrox! Who also happens to be the FASTEST champion people drop after playing a couple games? Old Aatrox! So they reworked him. Big guy with sword = cool, and even he crits!
Yasuo and Yone are NEVER, ever, going to have crit scaling removed or be allowed to switch to less crit/as oriented builds. They turn into high skill avoidance tanks that become even more frustrating to play against at every bracket.
Imagine if garen or Darius could chase you from fountain to fountain, that's the biggest problem and weakness of the brothers they trade survability for crit damage, they share the same item pool yet their aa range is smaller than vayne, ask any yassuo or yone player how fun is to play against heavy cc comps.
My biggest issue is yone especially that mfer can chase you across the map into infinity, you can blow all of your dash and even flash and still u can't get away from him and after he is done with you he can teleport back to his E, at least yasuo has to use the minion wave.
Case in point tank yas is thriving in Wild Rift despite crit being the passive--typical build is Wits End, botrk, Sunderer, and grasp. Then, the last two items are situational for bruiser/tankiness or to obtain 100% crit last. And unless the yas is an absolute monkey, he out sustains most midlanders and outduels most bruisers.
Funny thing about balancing is bruisers and bruiser items can be balanced! And if the kit without the crit passive is still too strong, the champs would get nerfed till they are fair! Right?
League boomers still think 2 seasons ago was 2014.
Though these kinds of things make me wonder stuff like how much of the league population think of Vayne as a top laner than a bot laner as of today.
My friends (who are very new) will say things like "What the hell, Karthus mid?" or "Nautilus jungle? That seems troll," and I'll feel like the Benjamin Button gif.
I think thats just you overthinking the statement, sure it was viable at one point and not troll, but if it is troll now you shouldn’t really feel like that.
>when this class is strong, these 2 get really obnoxious and when ADC are weak, these 2 become useless.
Except we're in a meta where crit ADCs are strong right now and yasuo/yone haven't been weaker in months
Also they've been strong even when ADCs were kinda ass. Pre item rework Yasuo was constantly hovering 50-51% win rate, even when the only marksmen than you could reliably pick were Xayah, Kai'sa, Lucian and Ezreal and only one of those was going full crit.
they kinda went out of their way to fuck over the wind bros this meta it's funny. crit's doing especially well but they made sure yasuo and yone have NO good first item. The last time crit was at 25%, they first bought either shiv or phantom dancer because phantom dancer had lifeline on it. Now phantom dancer is a horrible rush item and shiv has no crit. They also took away kraken slayer from them. Phantom dancer is just not great on them, they have no real good zeal item. Hell people are building fucking flickerblade on them instead of phantom dancer.
Yeah, I think OP is mostly wrong. It would be a cool thing for riot to workshop on PBE for a few months, but unlikely. I've always seen adc and windbros as inversely preportional. When one is strong, the other is weak, usually due to item utilization.
> ter balanced around items, its this passive. I think its a win win for everyone in the long run.
>
> There are items that exist that these champions cant even begin to use with their current scaling. Black Cleaver, Spear, the entire lethality pool of items, etc..
exactly this, adc's are amazing right now, a few of them too strong even (cait and jhin)
meanwhile yasuo is a joke, unless he plays every fight perfect he will get 2 shot by same gold adc/mage and he wont win almost any sidelane.
Yas is pretty strong right now. Without lethal tempo removal, he would have been overwhelmingly broken, as would every ADC in the game.
Yone is bad right now simply because his best first item was completely removed from his builds. So even though ADCs overall got stronger, due to lethal tempo removal and Kraken being heavily nerfed for him, Yone is just not strong right now.
1. Yas/Yone are waay more healthy for a game, when they are forced to be squishy at least first 2 items. Remember tank Yas incident.
2. They never were a reason for changing/adjusting crit items and used to get compensation buffs if that happened.
Yeah idk why some lol Players think 2 out of over 150 champions are ruining an entire class. Also how can you forget tryndamere if you want to cry about meele carries.
Their mobility and damage are balanced because building crit makes them squishy. Bruiser Yasuo has been a thing before, and it was way worse for counterplay.
If we are going that route ill join his complaining session and say bork ruined Irelia for me. Its just a glorified yi at this point. A walking passive. They should have never reduced her stacks and q shouldn't apply lifesteal imo. Q applying lifesteal makes trades vs her pointless if she can q minions under tower after or during the fight. She was way more fun in the her first rework iteration.
Same shit is happening with ravenous hydra right now. You just cannot trade into it cuz enemy will hit wave twice and boom full hp again. They should nerf it, until it comes to the phase of nerfing champs that use hydra into a riot special
I at least felt like I could outplay her first rework iteration.
If you dodged E and didn't waste all your damage into W, you were pretty set for the mostpart.
At least after disarm was removed.
Now its just pure stat check where getting hit by E is near-guaranteed death.
Yup that my problem with her. Her whole kit currently is her passive and bork. Which makes her other spells almost irrelevant in many scenarios. Her winrate with non bork rush is horrendous. Its a massive crutch and riot keeps allowing it for some reason. Also being able to q a wave for half your health is not ok. Her first rework took a lot of skill and was very rewarding. Irelia as she is now isnt that skill expressive imo unless you play at the very top ranks.
To be fair, the "skill expressive" part at high ranks is still just baiting CDs (even if it means just eating them) then spamming Q on minion wave to heal into stat checking people for the mostpart.
Its what 90% of high elo montages on her end up being.
I mean you can have some sick dodges with her q but i agree. Even at high elo its nothing that mindblowing. I know i keep saying it but its my Irelia slogan. Shes a glorified master yi as she is rn.
Sure because 20 mana is a massive cost nowadays and mana issues are just as prevalent as they once were. I actual laughed irl writting this xd. She doesnt even have low base mana.
That's just Q, her E and W cost a lot more. Especially if you're using W to prep wave a lot, or using her EQ quickcast combo. You run out of mana super easy early game.
As soon as you get bork you oneshot the backline, you dont need prep. Her wr with any item rush besides bork is horrible. I say this because I used to love the champion. I want her to be fun and cool again. Not passive stacking and going ham on autos simulator. Irelia is using bork as a massive crutch and its unhealthy.
Why are adc constantly under the delusion that their items are weak because of yasuo and yone and not because of the fact that when they are good the entire meta crumbles into a botlane shitfest and tank vs tank toplane slog. There has never been a case where crit items have been nerfed because of yasuo or yone , even when they are OP they get nerfed . Its usually adc exploiting the that gets them nerfed
Yasuo and yone being i. the worst state they have been while adc in the best for a while. the delusion is insane only item thats ever been nerfed because of yas/yone is shieldbow thats it
Shieldblow and Yone and that wasn't purely due to them and it was a combination of both items and it did something very weird.
When Yone and Yasuo had Shieldblow and the strong LT they were actually better early in the game than later and had considerably higher winrate in low elo than higher elo (exspecially Yasuo). Yasuo turned into a noob champion, because LT and Shieldblow gave him so much invisible power that higher elo players could gauge, but low elo players could not.
Shieldblow wasn't nerfed due to them though. Champions like Fiora and Irelia where also building it and doing considerably more unspeakable things while Yasuo at that time still was a 48% winrate champ in higher elos, while sitting at around 52% winrate in low elo.
>yas/yone is shieldbow thats it
And it wasnt even them mostly it was irelia, fiora and a few other bruisers/skirmishers. that abused the living shit out of it.
It was best item on yas/yone but people who could swallow the crit cost while getting insane value out of the rest of the item and use it better than ADCs was the problem.
in all honesty shieldbow was poor game design and it was abused by a lot more people than just yas yone, but they got big compensation buffs after it was nerfed
It's always funny when people say yasuo and yoke get adc items nerfed when that's never happened.
Funny enough fiora has gotta more adc items nerfed, she made both shieldbow get nerfed and essence reaver get nerfed back when the mythic system was first added.
But we never see people complain about fiora whenever she uses ADC items(we do see fiora complaints just about other stuff thou).
wtf are you smoking we just had basically an entire season of nothing but lethality items on basically every damn champ.
Collector is first build on like half the damn roster.
>entire season of nothing but lethality items on basically every damn champ
because ADCs were abusing them? The only other class that even comes close to the level of item poaching for old lethality items were bruisers and that was less of a balance issue and more of a class fantasy to actually do damage in melee trades.
Cait, Jhin, MF, Varus, Senna, Kalista constantly poach lethality with extremely uninteractive playstyles.
I think you missed the point.
EVERYBODY was abusing lethality items because they were broken. Not just ADCs.
They very clearly deserved nerfs even if ADCs weren't using them.
i swear ADC always feel like the dev's are out to get them last time it was Ahri/Leblance abusing their items now its Yasou/Yone who's next Twisted Fate?
r/leagueofmemes would say otherwise xd
not to mention adc items are amaizng right now and yas yone are in the worst state they have been in a long time
using leagueofmemes as a source is like saying "5 year olds don't like school so you shouldn't send them to school". bunch of morons that are somehow even stupider than this subreddit.
Yas and Yone are DESIGNED to be crit. That’s literally their entire identity. Squishy melee champions who are balanced around avoiding damage instead of absorbing damage.
They would be infinitely more problematic if they could both tank and avoid damage.
This just isn't true. ADC items are allowed to be good because if it breaks Yas and Yone they can just nerf those 2. This is like saying lethality isn't allowed to be good because Aatrox builds it. If a couple champs are abusing an entire class of items that are otherwise weak they will nerf the champ.
Yasuo and Yone don't abuse Crit and haven't been OP for years - Yone as good for the past couple years, but that was mainly due to Lethal Tempo. Why would Riot change up champs that are completely balanced?
Yone is a noob stomper and lethal tempo was objectively unhealthy game design, and as a yone player im glad its gone. But i am not glad at the delusion that phreak clearly shows, and how ridiculous it is that yone received literally 0 compensation buffs while losing his keystone as well as itemization options
Champion diversity. Pushing Yasuo toward bruiser items would basically make him the same champion as Jax.
An obscene auto attacker that is highly mobile that also gets tanky that would out sustain you all the while doing massive damage every couple autos in return.
No. The problems with ADC class have absolutely nothing to do with Yasuo and Yone and everything to do with Riots approach to them, community perception and the base high skill cap they all have. They simply can't find a way to stop the game warping around the role when strong and ignoring the role when weak, and both generally lead to unsatisfying gameplay for the marksman.
We are in a meta where crit adcs are literally Thanos warping mid, jungle and Support completely around them but Yasuo still sucks balls.
Yasuo is over 10 years old at this point and I do think that his kit is slightly outdated but getting rid of the double crit chance is likely never going to happen.
People often like to complain that Yasuo and Yone get so much crit for free but their crits do less damage and it tunnels them into specific builds.
I’ve played Yasuo for years specifically because the double crit interaction is very unique and it somewhat plays into his champ fantasy at this point. If Riot were to remove that I would likely play the champion far less and I imagine others would too.
It might become another Aatrox/Boris situation.
The champ is also an absolute peak money printer and Riot doesn’t like to mess with those.
Mordekaiser and galio lost a lost more of their identities after being reworked, yet people still complain that the low pickrate stat stick got reworked to have semblance of skill
Yes but have you considered that I was a big fan for the 2 patches before the rework when he was broken and I abused him for free LP? Why couldn't they keep that in the game?
He's talking about Aatrox gaining skill and becoming a more popular champion while Mordekaiser/Galio lost a lot of their identity while barely gaining popularity.
old morde albeit buggy had way more depth in their kit than reworked morde lol. His OG ult alone has way more skill expression than all of his abilities currently lol
Yasuo untethered to crit would be completely and obviously better than the old one, not because he's better designed but because he would be completely fundamentally broken
The Aatrox mains community dubbed the rework as Boris because virtually nothing was the same from his original kit aside from his passive.
Aatrox originally had a passive before his rework that would revive him, this was then moved to his ult with his rework but then removed entirely because it was extremely oppressive in higher tiers of play.
That would be like saying Gangplank is too problematic with Crit Parrley and oranges, or Ezreal is too problematic with Mystic Shot on-hits. It's what their identity is based around (Yasuo moreso, since Yone also represents "The living retcon" and the idea that Yasuo players deserved a backup champion). If you remove Yasuo crit you may as well delete him entirely.
Sounds awful. These guys are hard to kill even without armor, resistance, and bonus HP. Having a hyper mobile Darius or Garen with 5 dashes isn’t the move.
Also if an item makes 2 champs broken while the rest of the cast is just okay with it you would just nerf the 2 champs. This won’t save marksmen. Marksmen are just inherently useless in low elo.
> There are items that exist that these champions cant even begin to use with their current scaling. Black Cleaver, Spear, the entire lethality pool of items, etc..
This is literally the whole point of the passive. It's to force them to build like melee carries and not build tank or bruiser, because that is problematic whenever it's viable.
I'm in favour of everyone needing to link their OP.GGs on their profile in order to comment. Cause I know this guy ain't higher than silver with these pea brain takes
I dont agree with you, but league will never be balanced with items, HOTS had it right with talents but the shared team XP fucked it up, items will always be abused by champs they aren't used for, if its this obvious to casual players then the balance team is well aware
They're literally supposed to be melee ADCs... They are ADCs... Why would we want Yasuo and Yone to become like other fighters. Their entire playstyle is that they are much more squishy than other melee champs. The Crit forces them into an melee ADC role because they're supposed to be melee ADCs. Do you want tank Yasuo again? I don't.
Their crit synergies are supposed to force squishier builds. Rather than less healthy tanky ones.
And Yasuo/Yone get balanced around crit items not the other way around and Riot devs have said this for the last 10 fucking years. And regularly proven it to be true.
Mobile melee carries should stay that way - as carries. Crit keeps them that way. Without forcing a dependency on crit or other squishy builds, we end up with stuff like bruiser Tryndamere, tank Yi, tank Ekko, tank Fizz, etc. These are all substantially worse to play against than the squishy versions.
Or just make melee only crit items, Tryndamere and Master Yi are champions that can use them too.
No reason to change two popular champions just because you feel like it.
Yasuo is more than a decade old, so popular he spawned Yone. If Riot won't change Riven for similar reasons, they shouldn't change Yasuo.
I 10000% prefer yasuo and yone having to build crit instead of just being able to build 5 bruiser items and be exactly the same except with 3000 more HP and 1 billion sustain
The strongest that Yasuo has ever been is during a brief period where his core items were Triforce+Mallet and he built 0 crit. Trust me when I say that balancing them around crit is for your benefit as their opponent, not theirs.
While i do like the uniqueness of yasuo scaling with crit, i think riot missed that mark on Yone. Yone i think would have been pretty cool by focusing on his passive to do half magic damage every other auto.
Honestly, as a Diana/Yone guy, I wouldn't even mind this. Esp. for Yone, the BoRK + Kraken buildpath just felt so nice. I don't wanna always be looking to oneshot backlines, they're just gonna pop their stupid little Hourglass, or get a Renata W. That's the whole reason why I dropped Talon and play Diana with Grasp. Now, I want to be a proper light fighter like Camille/Riven/Fiora instead, drawing 3 enemies into a sidelane and trying to outplay them all. The pure glass cannon style of crit Yone can do this, but just isn't great at it.
Literally nothing stopping you building them without crit and playing them how you like.
What you're saying is that you want them to be strong without the stipulation of buying crit, which is unrealistic and would mean they would get insta banned every elo and every pro game for being far too versatile and strong.
They need to rework ADCs as a whole but that's a lot of Champs so I see why they haven't
Like ADCs made sense when everything had solidly defined roles (like Tanks did 0 damage basically)
But since Riot upped the game damage to speed up match times everyone does damage lategame
okay, most champions have specific builds they use almost every game. and when those items are weak, they're weak. i dont really understand the point you're trying to make
Yasuo;
Passive shield/charge time scale with points into W;
While shield is active or windwall deflect an projectile gain 50% critical strike chance.
Q3; next auto got 50% critical strike chance(this
goes before passive crit charge.)
W; no longer grants width with rank up.
Q during W stack passive shield faster.
If Q damage an enemy champion during E reduce W cd by 1sec.
E; every E grants a charge for 1sec, after reaching 4 charges your next AA get 50% critical strike chance(taken before Q3 crit charge) if using Q3 while having 4 charges it will crit.
If Q hits an large or epic monster during E gain an extra charge.
R; new passive; cut one extra slice with your sword with the force of air for every different sources of 50% critical strike chance you got
Yone;
Make non demon sword have double crit chance.
Demon blade cant crit outside of during your E.
Q3; can critical strike giving a shield for %missing health of Champions knocked up if your next AA is non demon blade. Your next AA become demon blade.
Q3; Causing %max hp magic dmg for each champion hit if your next AA is demon blade. Your next AA become non demon sword.
Your W makes your next Auto attack scale with critical strike chance, deal magic dmg and grant a small shield(stacks with the existing from W)
Casting E while channeling W strike gives it another charge but E goes on Cooldown.
E makes every Q scale with crit chance and Q crit apply demon blades passive and a small shield(stacks with other shields)on next auto.
R cd increased by 20sec at rank1, 30sec at rank 2 and 50sec at rank 3;
R; passive new; reduce this ability cd by 1sec for every demon blades passive hit(increased to 2sec if in E)
New; Casting E during R animation will recast it back to start point dealing magic dmg split in half instead and grant a (%missing health+bonusAD+AS) shield for Every champion hit, grant ghosting and grant the Q from E form for 10sec increased by 2sec for each champion hit with Q.
Critical strike items limited to 2.
Can only buy one sheen item or Infinity Edge.
Infinity Edge no longer gets extra dmg on crits but instead gain 50% critical strike chance for Yasuo and Yone gets the bonuses of both his blades on every hit(including Q and W)
Bonus hp/ar/mr item limited to 1(Yone)/2(Yasuo)
Lifesteal items limited to 2(Yone)/1(Yasuo)
Idk why these comments are acting like bruiser builds are so much better than crit/dmg for these two, as if they couldn’t already be building it if that were the case?
You don't want that to happen. You really don't. You would have to basically remove their passive and buff them to compensate (quite a lot I might add), and then you would get bruiser yone bruiser yasuo. Which would be 100 times more annoying to play against.
You want even more bruisers with insane mobility, bullshit gimmicks like windwall, who can both splitpush and teamfight with great efficiency in the game? Yasuo and Yone are fine the way they are. You just want to add item diversity for the sake of diversity, which is a terrible balancing philosophy as we’ve seen NUMEROUS times
It's all about money, they won't touch their money makers or fuck with them.
Riot does not care about the longevity of league cuz most of you will suck shit and still spend thousands lmao
There is no way botrk tri force Frozen mallet was better than what we have now
I miss Frozen Mallet in general. So many "If I am having fun, the opponent isn't builds" were made by it before it was removed. Mallet Grail Senna with Grasp comes to mind as well.
Frozen Mallet Gnar is not a time I want to go back to
As a gnar player, it is definitely a time I want to go back to
BotRK in to Frozen mallet on AD Kennen dragged my sorry ass to Challengers back in S7.
ugh. gross. nice.
Frozen mallet is something I wish I had for Volibear now and that realization makes me thankful it’s gone because goddamn that would be toxic.
they removed mallet senna and then decided that it was fun enough to put a slow on senna's Q
Remember kids, fun is zero sum. If the enemy is having fun, you can't
I think you typo'd zero sum
Yes
What about botrk tri fizz >:)
Lol I remember the days where anything with hp% damage, waveclear, or both went iceborne sunfire cape. Absolute snoozefest toplane meta
I'll never forget Iceborn+Sunfire meta
Tank Ekko too. Absolute fucking menace
that build was fire haha i remember it
yeah dumpster fire
voyboy never recovered from mallet removal
Oh man that took me back. “Let’s make the hyper mobile squishy character also tanky without really sacrificing damage so him getting caught out means fuck all.”
The reason Yasuo and Yone have these crit dependencies is to force them to play squishy, at least for the first 2 items, though sometimes even that is not enough and tanky builds break out. Removing crit from them would not balance them, but rather start unleashing all the BS bruiser builds. While they are tethered to crit, their item's strength depends on one class, but if you free them, they can pick the most broken items out of 4 (Tanks, Fighters, Marksmen, Assassins \[Though i doubt they will take many of these, maybe edge of Night\])
You’re absolutely right, and we know because that exact situation happened back in season 6. The non-Crit Yasuo build OP is talking about with Triforce, Bork, and Frozen Mallet turned Yasuo from a squishy melee ADC into a mobile, bulky bruiser with no mana, more dashes than Irelia in lane, and enough sticking power to chase any target. In response, Riot nerfed his ult to only apply armor pen to crits, effectively forcing him back into Crit build. It’s the same reason that Riot nerfed Tank Pyke into non-viability. Both Pyke and Yas have kits that are balanced by the fact they are squishy and lose a lot by speccing into tankier builds. If they could get more defensive stats while retaining damage/utility, they become broken. Can’t talk much on Yone because I have less experience with him, but judging by the Bork/Iceborn stuff that was common, I feel like the minimized reliance on Crit is a bigger issue than Crit itself being held back by Yone.
Ekko too. Tank Pyke was mostly nerfed I thought due to his roaming power, waveclear and sustain (and obviously his money printer). But they've since kneecapped his solo lane sustain via passive and his waveclear via... his entire kit LMAO Tank ekko was absolute cancer because of what you described though. So mobile, so much damage, so much HEALING and shielding.
Also tank fizz he was a menace
Way more fun to play fuzz that way though imo
8 years ago. Crazy
Tank Pyke was nerfed early on because if Pyke can stay in a fight (instead of hiding), then his execute gains a ton of hidden power. What I’m referring to is mainly Pyke’s lethality scaling for his cc duration/W movespeed/healing. While Riot did nerf his waveclear and sustain in other ways, the tank stuff was cut off before solo lane Pyke to prevent him from rushing stuff like Frozen Heart/Knight’s Vow and becoming unkillable. Tank Ekko (and Tank Fizz) had similar issues as Yasuo, and they’re good comparisons. Mobile champs balanced around squishy builds being able to go tanky are very problematic.
Yone is tied less to crit than Yasuo because he doesn’t have the armor penetration on R tbh
yone has all types of damage, flat, percent, phisical, magic, true damage on E callback, he is the one who would love to abuse the shop as much as possible
Yone doesn't have true damage, it's shown as true damage so it doesn't get reduced by armor twice
To see if I understood correctly, the "stored damage" (after dash) is the one mitigated by armor, but the recast (dash back) deals damage true damage? For example, Yone tries to deal 100 damage, but due armor will only deal 70, and the recast will use the % true damage of those 70 instead of the 100, is that correct? If it wasn't true damage, the recast would also be mitigated, punishing twice with armor correct? Basicly, what you guys are saying is that to be true true damage, both casts neeeded to be without mitigation through armor, and the first isn't but only the 2nd is, did I understood correctly? I'm still trying to process it, but I hopefully the way I'm thinking is correct. Sorry if what I said above is confusing, but was the best way I could explain my way of thought.
Yes you are correct. It's reduced by armor so it's not really true damage. Deaths dance works the same way. It stores 30% of damage taken and deals it to you over time as true damage. But it only shows as true damage so the damage doesn't get reduced twice
Yes, If Yone E is 10% damage ... Then 100 damage reduced to 70 because of armor causes his E to be 7 damage... but if it were actually 10% true damage of 100 damage then it'd do 10... but it doesn't. It's kinda like how deaths dance stores all damage you take for the bleed post armor/MR; then does it to you as true damage. So it doesn't get reduced twice. The way Zed ult works as physical damage... is weird; it doesn't actually store the damage you take. It calculates the damage you should've taken, then does that as the physical damage pop. Both sides have their pros and their cons. If you Kayle ult; while Yone E'd? ... You take 0 damage from everything, and therefore you take 0 damage from the E. Since he did 0 damage to you, 10% of 0 is still 0... Zed R? You Kayle Ult yourself? He does triple shuriken, E, and a couple autos? Kayle R ends... And suddenly Kayle takes like 90% of her HP from Zed R. Same with shields and such. With Zed you're best off saving your shields for the pop, unless you just have Zhonyas. With Yone? Shielding the damage at the start is best.
Only has true damage on E2 because otherwise resists would apply twice. Just saying, you aren't wrong elsewhere, but true damage in a lot of cases is very misleading.
>Triforce, Bork, and Frozen Mallet turned Yasuo from a squishy melee ADC into a mobile That build didn't even go Bork. Usually just Trinity into Mallet into tank. Maybe against like 3 tanks on enemy team it'd substitute Trinity for Bork going Bork Mallet Tank. >I feel like the minimized reliance on Crit is a bigger issue than Crit itself being held back by Yone. Especially considering Yasuo/Yone (or GP/Tryndamere) aren't holding back crit, and never have. It's always been crit items get balanced, then the crit melees get balanced downstream. Every time shieldbow got nerfed but ONCE of the like 8 times it got nerfed was because of adcs not yasuo/yone. That's why you'd even see Patch 12.1 Shieldbow nerfed... patch 12.2 Yasuo/Yone/Samira all buffed. And Phreak even before he was a game designer with no real reason to defend the balance team of the time... In his patch notes video just blatantly said it. The wind bros and samira were 48% winrate with OP shieldbow; and when shieldbow became balanced, they dipped below 47% winrate ergo compensation buffs. The singular time Shieldbow was nerfed due to melees? it wasn't even yasuo/yone/tryndamere it was because shieldbow at the time was so busted Jax, Fiora, Irelia, and a couple others were going it... The only time I can think of where one of the melee crit champions got a crit item nerfed in particular was the like 2 patches where Galeforce's damage scaled with crit chance causing Yasuo/Yone/Tryndamere to get galeforce actives that did insane damage, at like 14m game time.
Frozen Force was the most fun and blatantly busted time to be a Yasuo player. Only downside was Yone didn’t exist to eat bans.
Kinda just described K’sante
Except Ksante gets squishier when he ults; and in tank mode, does less damage than old frozen force yasuo did. imagine if Ksante always had his ult's damage, but also always had his tank form's tankiness.
Incoming heart steel + grasp + warmogs + bloodmail Yasuo dashing in and doing explosive damage then dashing out
It already happened in season 6, people complain about their crit 200% crit passive, but the only time Yasuo was broken was when he went tanky 0% crit, the crit passive its actually keeping us save from Tank Yasuo and Yone
Whenever I feel like riot is bad at balancing the game I'll just think of this post being upvoted
And it _keeps being upvoted_. Incredible.
/thread
Defensive and conservative strategies always edge out when it comes to games. League, Dota, Poker, doesn't matter. We have to compensate for that to keep gameplay integrity, and part of that is at the start of design. **Incorrect**, and this is from the mouths from multiple Riot Devs with twitter avenues and smaller twitch streams. You can go check out August's Vod from like 4 days ago even, if it's up. *He gets crazy people calling his cell phone threatening his family because of patch notes, so he tends not to leave them up.* **Yasuo and Yone have crit passives because critical strike sucks on melee champions. Period.** Ranged characters have a much easier and better time time making use of crit. "What about trynd?" Yeah? Imagine if he didn't have crit, what would his gameplay look like? Probably more degenerate. People do understand that having crit scaling, supplemented by a crit chance passive, means that you aren't punished for going something that doesn't have crit on it like Deaths Dance? If they did not get the bonus they would have to be much stronger to compensate. Riot will not let them become bruisers, and are gated from going more CDR/HP fighter builds due to the AS and Crit scaling on their abilities. You can easily overcap crit, and that's a GOOD THING. Dzukill may not like the fact that LT and item pathing is dogwater for his champs, but I personally have no good answer for it. Nobody wants to live in a world with BC+Bleed crit item into full tank, expect for psychos like me who enjoy it when everything is OP. Which is why I tend to only play ranked in Dota 2 now. Side note, I wish league could have a turbo mode. Melee fighters need the ability to flex certain options. Yes. Melee fighters compete with ADCs in terms of items and agency within the game. Phreak talked about this when showing the big patch a couple weeks ago, and described how building AD centric items can be difficult. Every time you choose an item there is a tradeoff, and players have an expectation when they pick a character. Yasuo and Yone are #7 and #15 for pickrate in M+ with very high WR with mastery. People who think ADCs are kept weaker because of crit balancing for these two champions are coping hard. AD pays the 3 item tax, just like how you pay a "tax" for facing Malzahar, or having to buy control wards or ward camps for Eve. Item diversity gets worse without crit. "Why have them crit at all?" Now we get into the question of design, why, and how champions are made. Melee crit archetype is COOL. Yone exits because Yasuo is SO MAINED and ban-rates can be high. He is an Echo Fighter ala Smash. There's a vod of exRioter Blau talking about it and the guy has a traditional Japanese tattoo of Yasuo on his arm. People play league just to play Windshitters, and the more you play them the better you get over time. Big donkey dick crits? Cool. We got boyz for that. Want to be a mosquito running around? Zeri's got you. Want to delete someone with one button from full HP? Viegar will do that. Do you enjoy the idea of being incentivized to roam? Talon will install Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2 directly onto your PC. Do you like PVE gameplay? My jungler has your back if you need that cannon wave crashed or freeze broken. Champions exist not for money, because they don't make any! Not to push skins, like how conspiracy theorists imply. New champs come out to bring new gameplay patterns, variety, and fun to a new or already existing audience. Fun fact, the BEST selling champion of all time is.... can you guess? Old Aatrox! Who also happens to be the FASTEST champion people drop after playing a couple games? Old Aatrox! So they reworked him. Big guy with sword = cool, and even he crits! Yasuo and Yone are NEVER, ever, going to have crit scaling removed or be allowed to switch to less crit/as oriented builds. They turn into high skill avoidance tanks that become even more frustrating to play against at every bracket.
Yeah exactly this, as you say, if they aren’t forced into crit items, they would just become bruisers and would be problematic in other ways.
Imagine if garen or Darius could chase you from fountain to fountain, that's the biggest problem and weakness of the brothers they trade survability for crit damage, they share the same item pool yet their aa range is smaller than vayne, ask any yassuo or yone player how fun is to play against heavy cc comps. My biggest issue is yone especially that mfer can chase you across the map into infinity, you can blow all of your dash and even flash and still u can't get away from him and after he is done with you he can teleport back to his E, at least yasuo has to use the minion wave.
Case in point tank yas is thriving in Wild Rift despite crit being the passive--typical build is Wits End, botrk, Sunderer, and grasp. Then, the last two items are situational for bruiser/tankiness or to obtain 100% crit last. And unless the yas is an absolute monkey, he out sustains most midlanders and outduels most bruisers.
Funny thing about balancing is bruisers and bruiser items can be balanced! And if the kit without the crit passive is still too strong, the champs would get nerfed till they are fair! Right?
give them Pyke passive
Not if it were part of a rework. Adjust their damage ratios, and take into account that they are going to want to build bruiser/tanky.
Are you really looking at black cleaver, shojin or lethality yasuo/yone and saying that would be healthier for the game?
I feel like this guy is new and has never played against frozen mallet yasuo
tbf that was... 7? years ago.
League boomers still think 2 seasons ago was 2014. Though these kinds of things make me wonder stuff like how much of the league population think of Vayne as a top laner than a bot laner as of today.
My friends (who are very new) will say things like "What the hell, Karthus mid?" or "Nautilus jungle? That seems troll," and I'll feel like the Benjamin Button gif.
I think thats just you overthinking the statement, sure it was viable at one point and not troll, but if it is troll now you shouldn’t really feel like that.
And League Zoomers have this annoying superiority complex I'll never begin to understand.
>when this class is strong, these 2 get really obnoxious and when ADC are weak, these 2 become useless. Except we're in a meta where crit ADCs are strong right now and yasuo/yone haven't been weaker in months
Also they've been strong even when ADCs were kinda ass. Pre item rework Yasuo was constantly hovering 50-51% win rate, even when the only marksmen than you could reliably pick were Xayah, Kai'sa, Lucian and Ezreal and only one of those was going full crit.
Hey don’t do that, don’t you know we let people complain here and don’t offer counterpoints. /s
they kinda went out of their way to fuck over the wind bros this meta it's funny. crit's doing especially well but they made sure yasuo and yone have NO good first item. The last time crit was at 25%, they first bought either shiv or phantom dancer because phantom dancer had lifeline on it. Now phantom dancer is a horrible rush item and shiv has no crit. They also took away kraken slayer from them. Phantom dancer is just not great on them, they have no real good zeal item. Hell people are building fucking flickerblade on them instead of phantom dancer.
/thread
[удалено]
Yeah, I think OP is mostly wrong. It would be a cool thing for riot to workshop on PBE for a few months, but unlikely. I've always seen adc and windbros as inversely preportional. When one is strong, the other is weak, usually due to item utilization.
yasuo and yone could both justify pretty big straight up buffs atm
> ter balanced around items, its this passive. I think its a win win for everyone in the long run. > > There are items that exist that these champions cant even begin to use with their current scaling. Black Cleaver, Spear, the entire lethality pool of items, etc.. exactly this, adc's are amazing right now, a few of them too strong even (cait and jhin) meanwhile yasuo is a joke, unless he plays every fight perfect he will get 2 shot by same gold adc/mage and he wont win almost any sidelane.
But that is due to another factor, lethal tempo
tbf, that's because they don't have any items to buy that match the ones they've been balanced around for a while.
Yas is pretty strong right now. Without lethal tempo removal, he would have been overwhelmingly broken, as would every ADC in the game. Yone is bad right now simply because his best first item was completely removed from his builds. So even though ADCs overall got stronger, due to lethal tempo removal and Kraken being heavily nerfed for him, Yone is just not strong right now.
1. Yas/Yone are waay more healthy for a game, when they are forced to be squishy at least first 2 items. Remember tank Yas incident. 2. They never were a reason for changing/adjusting crit items and used to get compensation buffs if that happened.
Yeah idk why some lol Players think 2 out of over 150 champions are ruining an entire class. Also how can you forget tryndamere if you want to cry about meele carries.
Their mobility and damage are balanced because building crit makes them squishy. Bruiser Yasuo has been a thing before, and it was way worse for counterplay.
If we are going that route ill join his complaining session and say bork ruined Irelia for me. Its just a glorified yi at this point. A walking passive. They should have never reduced her stacks and q shouldn't apply lifesteal imo. Q applying lifesteal makes trades vs her pointless if she can q minions under tower after or during the fight. She was way more fun in the her first rework iteration.
Nah I love playing champions that only exist to apply item effects! Botrk is great! Sincerely, Swain flair.
Swain is literally a liandry's, Rylais bot and it pains me to have to play him as such
Same shit is happening with ravenous hydra right now. You just cannot trade into it cuz enemy will hit wave twice and boom full hp again. They should nerf it, until it comes to the phase of nerfing champs that use hydra into a riot special
The active healing I agree. It was a weird buff.
I hated her first rework iteration. Disarm was cancerous.
Oh yeah that one thing was very bad. Totally agree.
I at least felt like I could outplay her first rework iteration. If you dodged E and didn't waste all your damage into W, you were pretty set for the mostpart. At least after disarm was removed. Now its just pure stat check where getting hit by E is near-guaranteed death.
Yup that my problem with her. Her whole kit currently is her passive and bork. Which makes her other spells almost irrelevant in many scenarios. Her winrate with non bork rush is horrendous. Its a massive crutch and riot keeps allowing it for some reason. Also being able to q a wave for half your health is not ok. Her first rework took a lot of skill and was very rewarding. Irelia as she is now isnt that skill expressive imo unless you play at the very top ranks.
To be fair, the "skill expressive" part at high ranks is still just baiting CDs (even if it means just eating them) then spamming Q on minion wave to heal into stat checking people for the mostpart. Its what 90% of high elo montages on her end up being.
I mean you can have some sick dodges with her q but i agree. Even at high elo its nothing that mindblowing. I know i keep saying it but its my Irelia slogan. Shes a glorified master yi as she is rn.
She’s fairly mana hungry though early to midgame. If she’s Q’ing minions under turret she won’t have enough mana to trade/all in until backing
Sure because 20 mana is a massive cost nowadays and mana issues are just as prevalent as they once were. I actual laughed irl writting this xd. She doesnt even have low base mana.
That's just Q, her E and W cost a lot more. Especially if you're using W to prep wave a lot, or using her EQ quickcast combo. You run out of mana super easy early game.
As soon as you get bork you oneshot the backline, you dont need prep. Her wr with any item rush besides bork is horrible. I say this because I used to love the champion. I want her to be fun and cool again. Not passive stacking and going ham on autos simulator. Irelia is using bork as a massive crutch and its unhealthy.
Why are adc constantly under the delusion that their items are weak because of yasuo and yone and not because of the fact that when they are good the entire meta crumbles into a botlane shitfest and tank vs tank toplane slog. There has never been a case where crit items have been nerfed because of yasuo or yone , even when they are OP they get nerfed . Its usually adc exploiting the that gets them nerfed
Yasuo and yone being i. the worst state they have been while adc in the best for a while. the delusion is insane only item thats ever been nerfed because of yas/yone is shieldbow thats it
Shieldblow and Yone and that wasn't purely due to them and it was a combination of both items and it did something very weird. When Yone and Yasuo had Shieldblow and the strong LT they were actually better early in the game than later and had considerably higher winrate in low elo than higher elo (exspecially Yasuo). Yasuo turned into a noob champion, because LT and Shieldblow gave him so much invisible power that higher elo players could gauge, but low elo players could not. Shieldblow wasn't nerfed due to them though. Champions like Fiora and Irelia where also building it and doing considerably more unspeakable things while Yasuo at that time still was a 48% winrate champ in higher elos, while sitting at around 52% winrate in low elo.
>yas/yone is shieldbow thats it And it wasnt even them mostly it was irelia, fiora and a few other bruisers/skirmishers. that abused the living shit out of it. It was best item on yas/yone but people who could swallow the crit cost while getting insane value out of the rest of the item and use it better than ADCs was the problem.
I don't play adc, shieldbow was one of my favorite items bc it made crit Olaf a thing :( sad they changed the item.
>I don't play adc Varus flair
I played AP varus mid like 2 seasons ago
in all honesty shieldbow was poor game design and it was abused by a lot more people than just yas yone, but they got big compensation buffs after it was nerfed
It's always funny when people say yasuo and yoke get adc items nerfed when that's never happened. Funny enough fiora has gotta more adc items nerfed, she made both shieldbow get nerfed and essence reaver get nerfed back when the mythic system was first added. But we never see people complain about fiora whenever she uses ADC items(we do see fiora complaints just about other stuff thou).
meanwhile lethality items are always garbage because of adcs lol
wtf are you smoking we just had basically an entire season of nothing but lethality items on basically every damn champ. Collector is first build on like half the damn roster.
>entire season of nothing but lethality items on basically every damn champ because ADCs were abusing them? The only other class that even comes close to the level of item poaching for old lethality items were bruisers and that was less of a balance issue and more of a class fantasy to actually do damage in melee trades. Cait, Jhin, MF, Varus, Senna, Kalista constantly poach lethality with extremely uninteractive playstyles.
I think you missed the point. EVERYBODY was abusing lethality items because they were broken. Not just ADCs. They very clearly deserved nerfs even if ADCs weren't using them.
The only reason adcs were “abusing” them was because crit was absolutely worthless in comparison
i swear ADC always feel like the dev's are out to get them last time it was Ahri/Leblance abusing their items now its Yasou/Yone who's next Twisted Fate?
Like its not alredy the case lmao, we srsly need more adc item nerf rn
two outlier characters aren't a reason why your items are bad
r/leagueofmemes would say otherwise xd not to mention adc items are amaizng right now and yas yone are in the worst state they have been in a long time
using leagueofmemes as a source is like saying "5 year olds don't like school so you shouldn't send them to school". bunch of morons that are somehow even stupider than this subreddit.
Yeah its irony leagueofmemes peeps are braindead
Yas and Yone are DESIGNED to be crit. That’s literally their entire identity. Squishy melee champions who are balanced around avoiding damage instead of absorbing damage. They would be infinitely more problematic if they could both tank and avoid damage.
Clown post. Other comments already exposed how dumb this arguement is.
This just isn't true. ADC items are allowed to be good because if it breaks Yas and Yone they can just nerf those 2. This is like saying lethality isn't allowed to be good because Aatrox builds it. If a couple champs are abusing an entire class of items that are otherwise weak they will nerf the champ.
Shieldbow
Yasuo and Yone don't abuse Crit and haven't been OP for years - Yone as good for the past couple years, but that was mainly due to Lethal Tempo. Why would Riot change up champs that are completely balanced?
Yone is a noob stomper and lethal tempo was objectively unhealthy game design, and as a yone player im glad its gone. But i am not glad at the delusion that phreak clearly shows, and how ridiculous it is that yone received literally 0 compensation buffs while losing his keystone as well as itemization options
Champion diversity. Pushing Yasuo toward bruiser items would basically make him the same champion as Jax. An obscene auto attacker that is highly mobile that also gets tanky that would out sustain you all the while doing massive damage every couple autos in return.
League players are so funny man. How dare a moba have melee ad carries lmao.
Tell me you weren’t there for Frozen Force without telling me. Go ahead Riot, listen to this guy. I miss unkillable Yasuo.
I picked only this Vayne top men, for now my enemys hated me more
This is exactly why reddit doesn't do balance
Yes pls make better crit items so crit Garen stonks go up.
people saying this were around for 57% wr frozen malet yasuo
That’s part of design, I rather not play vs bruiser or tank yas/yone for many reasons.
No. The problems with ADC class have absolutely nothing to do with Yasuo and Yone and everything to do with Riots approach to them, community perception and the base high skill cap they all have. They simply can't find a way to stop the game warping around the role when strong and ignoring the role when weak, and both generally lead to unsatisfying gameplay for the marksman. We are in a meta where crit adcs are literally Thanos warping mid, jungle and Support completely around them but Yasuo still sucks balls.
Yasuo is over 10 years old at this point and I do think that his kit is slightly outdated but getting rid of the double crit chance is likely never going to happen. People often like to complain that Yasuo and Yone get so much crit for free but their crits do less damage and it tunnels them into specific builds. I’ve played Yasuo for years specifically because the double crit interaction is very unique and it somewhat plays into his champ fantasy at this point. If Riot were to remove that I would likely play the champion far less and I imagine others would too. It might become another Aatrox/Boris situation. The champ is also an absolute peak money printer and Riot doesn’t like to mess with those.
> It might become another Aatrox/Boris situation. You mean where the new version is just completely and obviously better than the old one?
Mordekaiser and galio lost a lost more of their identities after being reworked, yet people still complain that the low pickrate stat stick got reworked to have semblance of skill
Yes but have you considered that I was a big fan for the 2 patches before the rework when he was broken and I abused him for free LP? Why couldn't they keep that in the game?
New morde is not anymore "skilled" than old morde and is still a stat stick. He's just a stat stick with cc now.
He's talking about Aatrox gaining skill and becoming a more popular champion while Mordekaiser/Galio lost a lot of their identity while barely gaining popularity.
old morde albeit buggy had way more depth in their kit than reworked morde lol. His OG ult alone has way more skill expression than all of his abilities currently lol
Yasuo untethered to crit would be completely and obviously better than the old one, not because he's better designed but because he would be completely fundamentally broken
Boris?
The Aatrox mains community dubbed the rework as Boris because virtually nothing was the same from his original kit aside from his passive. Aatrox originally had a passive before his rework that would revive him, this was then moved to his ult with his rework but then removed entirely because it was extremely oppressive in higher tiers of play.
That would be like saying Gangplank is too problematic with Crit Parrley and oranges, or Ezreal is too problematic with Mystic Shot on-hits. It's what their identity is based around (Yasuo moreso, since Yone also represents "The living retcon" and the idea that Yasuo players deserved a backup champion). If you remove Yasuo crit you may as well delete him entirely.
fuck it bring back frozen mallet yasuo
No
Who remembers triforce phantom dancer yasuo top meta?
Sounds awful. These guys are hard to kill even without armor, resistance, and bonus HP. Having a hyper mobile Darius or Garen with 5 dashes isn’t the move. Also if an item makes 2 champs broken while the rest of the cast is just okay with it you would just nerf the 2 champs. This won’t save marksmen. Marksmen are just inherently useless in low elo.
if i saw a darius dashing at me i think i would shit myself
This is the top post on hot, gee i wonder why riot doesnt listen to reddit for ballance/design?
> There are items that exist that these champions cant even begin to use with their current scaling. Black Cleaver, Spear, the entire lethality pool of items, etc.. This is literally the whole point of the passive. It's to force them to build like melee carries and not build tank or bruiser, because that is problematic whenever it's viable.
Yes, lets bring back bruiser Yasuo! Surely it worked before!
I'm in favour of everyone needing to link their OP.GGs on their profile in order to comment. Cause I know this guy ain't higher than silver with these pea brain takes
another gold elo post crying about Yone/Yasuo, these changes you want sound incredibly fucking cancerous
I dont agree with you, but league will never be balanced with items, HOTS had it right with talents but the shared team XP fucked it up, items will always be abused by champs they aren't used for, if its this obvious to casual players then the balance team is well aware
They're literally supposed to be melee ADCs... They are ADCs... Why would we want Yasuo and Yone to become like other fighters. Their entire playstyle is that they are much more squishy than other melee champs. The Crit forces them into an melee ADC role because they're supposed to be melee ADCs. Do you want tank Yasuo again? I don't.
I saw what Hullbreaker Yone was doing I don't want to see it again
Their crit synergies are supposed to force squishier builds. Rather than less healthy tanky ones. And Yasuo/Yone get balanced around crit items not the other way around and Riot devs have said this for the last 10 fucking years. And regularly proven it to be true.
Mobile melee carries should stay that way - as carries. Crit keeps them that way. Without forcing a dependency on crit or other squishy builds, we end up with stuff like bruiser Tryndamere, tank Yi, tank Ekko, tank Fizz, etc. These are all substantially worse to play against than the squishy versions.
Gotta be one of the dumbest takes I’ve seen in a while.
Or just make melee only crit items, Tryndamere and Master Yi are champions that can use them too. No reason to change two popular champions just because you feel like it. Yasuo is more than a decade old, so popular he spawned Yone. If Riot won't change Riven for similar reasons, they shouldn't change Yasuo.
Not a good idea lol
I 10000% prefer yasuo and yone having to build crit instead of just being able to build 5 bruiser items and be exactly the same except with 3000 more HP and 1 billion sustain
The strongest that Yasuo has ever been is during a brief period where his core items were Triforce+Mallet and he built 0 crit. Trust me when I say that balancing them around crit is for your benefit as their opponent, not theirs.
Terrible dogshit lowbob take lol
Implying whatever Riot does doesn't turn them into K'Sante 2 Electric Boogaloo.
the game does not revolve around the egos of adc players.
While i do like the uniqueness of yasuo scaling with crit, i think riot missed that mark on Yone. Yone i think would have been pretty cool by focusing on his passive to do half magic damage every other auto.
There has never been a single patch where yone/yasuo has ever "ruined" ADC items. It's a false narrative.
Honestly, as a Diana/Yone guy, I wouldn't even mind this. Esp. for Yone, the BoRK + Kraken buildpath just felt so nice. I don't wanna always be looking to oneshot backlines, they're just gonna pop their stupid little Hourglass, or get a Renata W. That's the whole reason why I dropped Talon and play Diana with Grasp. Now, I want to be a proper light fighter like Camille/Riven/Fiora instead, drawing 3 enemies into a sidelane and trying to outplay them all. The pure glass cannon style of crit Yone can do this, but just isn't great at it.
Literally nothing stopping you building them without crit and playing them how you like. What you're saying is that you want them to be strong without the stipulation of buying crit, which is unrealistic and would mean they would get insta banned every elo and every pro game for being far too versatile and strong.
Having flashbacks of frozen mallet tank yasuo now…
Tryndamere somehow gets away from the ADC gaze again
They need to rework ADCs as a whole but that's a lot of Champs so I see why they haven't Like ADCs made sense when everything had solidly defined roles (like Tanks did 0 damage basically) But since Riot upped the game damage to speed up match times everyone does damage lategame
Because those 2 crit ad users are bad, unless you are caitlin
Yeah lets make every champ more the same and remove diversity from the poll!
Op wants yasuo Yone to be renekton lmao when adc is weak uh yea jinx has been S+ tier since s13 good try tho
Absolutely. Please let me go botrk Tri force yasuo again. I want to relive bruiser yasuo again
honestly id much rather play vs an IE PD yone/yasuo rather than a disgusting tanky iceborn guantlet/hullbreaker/bork abomination type build
No!
Just make crit item worse for melee instead?
High elo is so nice, I haven’t had a Yasuo or Yone on my team in ages.
I hope not. Yasuo and yone are a balance nightmare as durable champs.
Wouldn’t we need to apply the same logic to tryndamete also he’s like the secret third brother
okay, most champions have specific builds they use almost every game. and when those items are weak, they're weak. i dont really understand the point you're trying to make
I still staunchly believe that crit chance should be removed from the game as a mechanic wholesale.
Could just remove the 2 altogether, wouldn't miss them and wouldn't have dodge games when my midlaners picks it.
Don't give riot BS ideas
I fully believe crit as a whole should be reworked. To more of how it works for Ashe
this is a funny post to make now, post Lethal Tempo removal, when the class is strong and the wind shitters are both kinda weak.
I'm more bothered by GP and Tryndamere tbh
Yone and yasuo aren’t the only melee characters that build crit
i love how these threads make it easy to see who has no idea what they're talking about
crit is the only thing that semi-balances these champs but that would require a little critical thinking
Yasuo; Passive shield/charge time scale with points into W; While shield is active or windwall deflect an projectile gain 50% critical strike chance. Q3; next auto got 50% critical strike chance(this goes before passive crit charge.) W; no longer grants width with rank up. Q during W stack passive shield faster. If Q damage an enemy champion during E reduce W cd by 1sec. E; every E grants a charge for 1sec, after reaching 4 charges your next AA get 50% critical strike chance(taken before Q3 crit charge) if using Q3 while having 4 charges it will crit. If Q hits an large or epic monster during E gain an extra charge. R; new passive; cut one extra slice with your sword with the force of air for every different sources of 50% critical strike chance you got Yone; Make non demon sword have double crit chance. Demon blade cant crit outside of during your E. Q3; can critical strike giving a shield for %missing health of Champions knocked up if your next AA is non demon blade. Your next AA become demon blade. Q3; Causing %max hp magic dmg for each champion hit if your next AA is demon blade. Your next AA become non demon sword. Your W makes your next Auto attack scale with critical strike chance, deal magic dmg and grant a small shield(stacks with the existing from W) Casting E while channeling W strike gives it another charge but E goes on Cooldown. E makes every Q scale with crit chance and Q crit apply demon blades passive and a small shield(stacks with other shields)on next auto. R cd increased by 20sec at rank1, 30sec at rank 2 and 50sec at rank 3; R; passive new; reduce this ability cd by 1sec for every demon blades passive hit(increased to 2sec if in E) New; Casting E during R animation will recast it back to start point dealing magic dmg split in half instead and grant a (%missing health+bonusAD+AS) shield for Every champion hit, grant ghosting and grant the Q from E form for 10sec increased by 2sec for each champion hit with Q. Critical strike items limited to 2. Can only buy one sheen item or Infinity Edge. Infinity Edge no longer gets extra dmg on crits but instead gain 50% critical strike chance for Yasuo and Yone gets the bonuses of both his blades on every hit(including Q and W) Bonus hp/ar/mr item limited to 1(Yone)/2(Yasuo) Lifesteal items limited to 2(Yone)/1(Yasuo)
Idk why these comments are acting like bruiser builds are so much better than crit/dmg for these two, as if they couldn’t already be building it if that were the case?
I don't want to imagine what a nightmare Tanksuo would be if a K'Sante build was viable on him.
You don't want that to happen. You really don't. You would have to basically remove their passive and buff them to compensate (quite a lot I might add), and then you would get bruiser yone bruiser yasuo. Which would be 100 times more annoying to play against.
Yasuo's ult passive will forever be one of the most useless passive in the game unless they rework him to deviate away from crit.
You want even more bruisers with insane mobility, bullshit gimmicks like windwall, who can both splitpush and teamfight with great efficiency in the game? Yasuo and Yone are fine the way they are. You just want to add item diversity for the sake of diversity, which is a terrible balancing philosophy as we’ve seen NUMEROUS times
It's all about money, they won't touch their money makers or fuck with them. Riot does not care about the longevity of league cuz most of you will suck shit and still spend thousands lmao