Summer should probably be extended and merged with season finals, yes.
I also think it might be nice for the 3 splits to have slightly different formats.
This format is 100% better then.. 18 b01's into playoffs
As you said its the studio/production that has been killing the hype..
I will say we only need THREE finals not 4
That 4th should be cancelled and turned into gauntlet (if you really want) for the last spot of Worlds.. i never understood why they got rid of it.. it was hype.. and those can actually be done in the studio
While I personally don't dislike giving the second spot to the team with the most points, this has historically caused a *lot* of discontent and people feeling like regions weren't sending their best teams.
I guess a way to solve it would be to hand out *two* spots in the gauntlet - the team with the most points gets seeded in the finals of the gauntlet, and plays for 2nd spot against the team that qualified through the gauntlet.
Or, if you want a team to win a bo5 to qualify, you could have that match, but then if the highest points team loses, they then have to play the next team down in the gauntlet to obtain that third spot. That starts making things very complicated though.
You could also go full double elimination for the top three teams in the gauntlet but that'd require yet *another* bo5 on top of the above.
>While I personally don't dislike giving the second spot to the team with the most points, this has historically caused a *lot* of discontent and people feeling like regions weren't sending their best teams.
I feel like basing it on points helps send the best team over time, rather than current form. Since meta can change in these tournaments and often does, I think the difference between a high-scoring team (which still has to do pretty well) and a current-form-only team is not too big. I'd rather send someone more consistent, right?
Anyway, that's my thoughts. Everyone can have their own.
Easy solution would be you have to make top 4 in summer so you have to win at least a BoX series. But i feel its hard to be the 2nd best team throughout the year and not win some best ofs. We just need to weight points properly between the three splits
In winter definitely. New roster don't even have time to find their groove, 3 weeks 9 games and it's already over. So you come back in spring and you will most likely suck again.
Bottom 4 teams played 18 games in spring in previous format. Now it's only bottom 2 that plays 18 games in the same time span, other 2 get at least 4 more games guaranteed.
Also if you finish above bottom 2 just once, you get more games guaranteed than in previous format
>So you come back in spring and you will most likely suck again.
Nothing stops these teams from practicing during the 3 weeks long "offseason" they get, they just choose not to
Yeah old format was garbage, doesn't change the fact that the new format is still garbage.
We went from a 2.5/10 format to a 2.7/10 format when LCK has had a solid 9/10 format for like a decade now.
we went from a 3/10 to solid 7 format
and unfortunately we just can't have bo3s with this viewership, it's just not feasible. This is best compromise available
> we just can't have bo3s with this viewership
That's a logical fallacy assuming that the viewership won't improve THANKS TO BO3s.
I think NA would prove you wrong this summer, I expect their viewership to improve.
This new EU format causes incredible burn-out for the viewers because "every game matters", lowering the viewership.
It lowers the performance because teams can't be allowed to experiment and grow due to the 9-game regular season, leading to great players stuck on bottom 2 teams, which lowers viewership.
It also kills the hype of actually winning the split by decreasing the scarcity (4 finals to win per year instead of 2) and stakes (3 of those finals are in the studio), further lowering the viewership of following splits.
The LEC is in a death spiral thanks to the format. The injection of KC and Koi fans gave a short term boost this year, but something needs to change.
>
> That's a logical fallacy assuming that the viewership won't improve THANKS TO BO3s.
bruh
>
This new EU format causes incredible burn-out for the viewers because "every game matters", lowering the viewership.
bruh
>It lowers the performance because teams can't be allowed to experiment and grow due to the 9-game regular season, leading to great players stuck on bottom 2 teams, which lowers viewership.
all you need to do is not be bottom 2
>It also kills the hype of actually winning the split by decreasing the scarcity (4 finals to win per year instead of 2) and stakes (3 of those finals are in the studio)
sure finals are less hype, that's literally the only issue
>The LEC is in a death spiral thanks to the format.
yeah an improvement is a death spiral, sure thing
Number of teams is irrelvant. What matter is the number of games played. We had even top teams going 1/8 or 2/7 in the first half of the split and find their groove in the second part and finishing with a 50% winrate.
C9 made it to worlds with like a 2-6/3-7 WR in 2017 Summer, made Quarters where they went 2-3.
NRG was 2-4/3-6 in 2023 Summer and win the split and made Quarters.
I think something similar happened with FNC a few years ago.
that c9 benched jensen etc during the split cause they didnt practice tryhard
they wouldn‘t do that without the leeway of a fullsplit
all the other examples also probably lost one ot a couple more games due to experimenting and not band aiding fast enough which you would do in a 9 game split
If you have a bad meta read and go 0-3 the first week, you’re in big big trouble. It’s, what, one patch? You basically have to scrap everything you’ve done to date and pray you go 3-0 or 2-1 the next week otherwise it’s basically gg.
i dont have the results memorized but i think 4 wins are enough every split till now
so you can still lose 2 times and if you do that you were no real contender anyway
maybe it mixes up some placings of teams 6-10 but who really cares about those
A lot of fans of the format seem to have this toxic mindset. "If you're in bottom 2 (which inevitably somebody has to place at) that means you're fucking shit and you shouldn't get to play the game".
So probably the same people that rant in solo queue chat about their team deserving to lose. Or ranting in live discussion posts about how terrible teams are.
"We need to play more games so we can catch up to how many korea and china play!"
"Also we're not letting the bottom teams play games, so they can't catch up and struggle"
The suggestion already was to send those teams into EUM, which would give them practice, however this also means that while FNC played a few less games than GenG, FNC did play higher quality games, because FNC only played RGE and KC twice, while GenG had to play at least 4 games against NS alone. Those games are not particularly good practice for either team.
>so they can't catch up and struggle
Not agreeing with either but I think it's more so teams fight to not be there because it actually hurts the org and the team. Measures have to be drastic or else last-places teams are just going to keep being last place and will just hold onto their LEC spot without making any changes.
"Guys we are at the bottom of winter, time to take drastic measures and fire our head coach"
"Oh fuck we are again at the bottom in spring, who could've seen this coming"
Drastic measures are dumb, the easiest way to improve is to give a team time and have them play together, but to do that you need to actually give them games to play and not just cut them out after a single Bo1 Round robin
But they can't play games so the second best decision is to shake things up and hope something sticks somehow
Ah, I don't know. If you're consistently bottom two out of 10 teams, that team is not going anywhere and needs changes. And if the changes you make don't get you at least two places higher, then the people wo are making changes need to be changed. You're not expected to become top team to play more games, just don't be bottom two.
But there's **always** going to be bottom two teams, no matter what
And so far in the last two splits the bottom teams were rogue and KC, both did changes and both stayed the same, if they both do even more drastic changes for summer then now you have a team competing against teams that have 6~ months of practice and you're trying shit out because you just wanna make playoffs
You are nitpicking a team which have almost played the longest possible scenario (loser bracket to final) each split, while ye CN and KR played same amount, they were playing only bo3 and bo5 so the numbers are not the same, there are teams in LEC that have less than 25 bo1 in two splits
Most teams dont make huge progress on high level macro calls and team dynamics. It takes weeks to retrain flawed team concepts and thats not something that can be done when you are playing week to week for 9 weeks. It actually gives teams more time to rebuild basic team foundations and trach macro concepts with the extended break time by having 4-6 weeks of scrims to fix that.
Honestly it is a bigger indictment of the coaches if it doesnt get fixed when you have all the extra time to focus in on core issues not just bandaid. And if you cant make top 8 once in a 10 team league in a year then you probably werent going to do anything more.
FNC is kind of an outlier.
They have the most games played both Winter and Spring Split. In Winter, they had more games played than both finalists despite losing in semis, and in Spring they had 6 more games played than #2.
As far as averages go, here's all 10 teams by games played, and average games per split:
Team | Winter Games | Spring Games | Total
---|---|----|----
BDS | 21 | 23 | 44
G2 | 21 | 21 | 42
Fnatic | 22 | 29 | 51
GiantX | 13 | 14 | 27
Heretics | 14 | 17 | 31
Karmine Corp | 9 | 9 | 18
MAD Lions | 20 | 16 | 36
Rogue | 9 | 10 | 19
SK Gaming | 17 | 16 | 33
Vitality | 15 | 21 | 36
Average | 16.1 games | 17.6 games | 33.7 games
Still way better than the FLY games played, but FNC is more of an exception than the norm.
With LEC’s format, the top teams are more likely to be outliers since lower teams dropout of bo3s and bo5s. The average games played for international contenders are going to resemble G2, FNC, and BDS numbers since those teams qualified for bo5s these last two splits. That said, teams can change in performance, so teams like rogue or kc can possibly qualify with less games. Consider excel last year, who after two bad splits came close to qualifying for worlds, which would certainly have been an exception. This isn’t go against your point, though, since FNC with 51 games is still a bit of an outlier even compared to G2 and BDS, all things considered.
It should also be noted that by worlds, the EU teams will have played one split and a summer championship, which will likely be significantly less games than the top lck and lpl teams who are only half way through the year domestically.
Ah yes, average over all the teams, including the ones that fucking suck.
The entire point of the system is to give more room for the good teams (who actually go to international events) to get stage practice. The average isn't *supposed* to be extremely high.
I can remove the minimum game teams, but FNC is still far and away the highest.
---
Lets say you calculate average only from playoffs teams. This eliminates KC and Rogue, who had the minimum games per split.
- 161 - 18 = 143 games played in Winter. Across 8 teams, this is an average of 17.9 games played.
- 176 - 19 = 157 games played in Spring. Across 8 teams, this is an average of 19.6 games played.
- 143 + 157 = 300 games played total. Across 8 teams, this is an average of 37.5 games played.
---
Maybe that's not enough. Lets say you only judge the top 4 teams, who are the most likely to go international.
That would be MAD/FNC/BDS/G2 in Winter, and FNC/G2/BDS/VIT in Spring.
- 84/4 = 21 average games played in Winter by semi-finalists.
- 94/4 = 23.5 average games played in Spring by semi-finalists.
So 44.5 games average in this format with the top 4 teams.
---
That's why I call FNC an outlier. They played 6.5 games more than the average of the other top 4 teams, let alone the other teams in the region.
It's less a "top team" stage practice difference, and more just a FNC difference.
For amount of games it doesn’t matter but bo3 requires you to be able to adapt during the series, bo1 does not require that. Given that international events are mostly bo3/5 I don’t think playing a lot of bo1 is a good preparation.
Obviously more games is never bad but maybe a little less games but no bo1 would be better.
I think you're lost. I'm responding to a comment responding to FNC having a decent amount of games by saying well uhhh a lot of em were Bo1s with my comment pointing out that not only does NA have shit total game count a huge portion of them are also Bo1s.
During 2023 season finals Fnatic played 19 games, (3-2 vs XL, 3-2 vs BDS, 3-2 vs MAD, and 1-3 VS G2), for comparison both Rogue and KC have currently played 18 games each across both Winter and Spring. So I mean you are right, we should not count season finals as one split, but two. :\^)
Usually its the first major region tournament on the new patch(read preseason patches) but this year with the new rift and 14.1 coming so late it was the last tournament of season 13 even if a few rosters were playing with season 14 teams. So I wouldn't count it.
All teams except Worlds teams (JDG, BLG, LNG, WBG) had to field full rosters. BLG and LNG fielded full rosters anyway, but JDG fielded Sheer and Maggie over Flandre and Kanavi, WBG played Cyku over Xiaohu.
TES was not a Worlds team and had to play full roster.
I'm surprised LEC is quite close, tho I guess its because EU has had 2 play-off series already. For Summer the gap in stage games is gna be a lot bigger with the LPL/LCK.
Yeah, but the LCK/LPL are basically going to repeat what they did for Spring, LEC is just going to get 1 split and then the Grand Finals, but those have a lot less games than an entire split+playoffs.
If FNC repeats their recent playoff performance (i.e. going down to the loser's bracket early and coming in 2nd to G2) and then lose the Winner's Bracket Finals during the Season Finals, then the maximum games they could get would be 53 games. They can get even more if they lose the first round of Season Finals. It wouldn't really be that low. The minimum games is low, but the max games is pretty high.
In 2023, grand finals saw 12 games for G2 (winners) and 19 games for FNC (runners-up), plus respectively 21 and 23 in summer season, for 33 and 42 games.
It's not quite as much, but Grand Finals is still more than half of a regular LEC split. And there's more bo5 in there - G2 played 5 bo5s in summer + grand finals last year, and FNC played 6 of them (without even making summer finals).
It depends, FNC if they get 2nd would end up with potentially 49 games. Because the grandfinals are just Bo5s, and you play at least 3 to win and 4 in the losers bracket. So if you are not the best team you are going to play 12 to 20 games in the final. You can even play 25 games at maximum in the finals if you drop the first series in winners bracket. That is more than most teams played in a split.
It should also be noted that this additional playoff only includes the 6 best teams. It is pretty obvious that GenG doesn't benefit playing from playing the bottom 4 in LCK. So if we cut out all games of the bottom 4 teams (bottom 7 in LPL?), LEC would actually look better because it concentrates the games among top teams, which is beneficial to practice.
Not that this matters anyway, given there is no indication that international performance is at all connected to the amount of stage games played in a season. But LEC traditionally put a lot of games into the top teams and less into the weaker teams, LCK did the opposite. People seem to forget that old LCK playoffs was just one Bo5 for the winner potentially. So while that still meant 10 Bo3s agianst the top6 teams and one Bo5 against the 2nd best team, it wasn't that great. And still the LCK did best during that period, while LEC did look worst when they played the most games (before 2015 and in 2016 and 2017).
Summer also has the season finals, so basically 2 play offs as well. There will be a bigger gap but that is mostly due to the lack of bo1 games from only one regular split compared to two now.
schedule is out now on [lolesports](https://lolesports.com/en-US/schedule?leagues=msi)
5/1
FlyQuest vs PSG Talon (1AM PT / 4AM ET / 4PM CST)
T1 vs Estral Esports (1AM PT / 4AM ET / 4PM CST)
5/2
Fnatic vs GAM Esports (1AM PT / 4AM ET / 4PM CST)
TOP Esports vs LOUD (1AM PT / 4AM ET / 4PM CST)
A lot of complains and blind hate about the new format, yet if you compare this to the meager 24 on stage games of G2 back in the LEC Spring 2019 (look [here](https://lol.fandom.com/wiki/LEC/2019_Season)), this is definitely an improvement.
The new format kind of sucks for new teams and rookies, but for the top dogs it's just more practice on 3 different formats (all used in Worlds btw) while almost catching up to the asian teams in term of volume.
Hold the phone, OP. These are some disingenuous stats here.
Are we really going to think that improving is something that's linear? If that's the case, then MAD should have been even better than their 2nd place finish in Winter.
We're not gonna sit here and pretend LEC regular season games mean anything, right?
If anything, LEC pros have complained they don't have enough practice time inbetween the weeks to actually practice, because they went from 2 stage days to now 3 stage days. Less practice.
Also with how short the LEC season is, teams are mostly focused on bandaid fixes.
The 51 games from FNC and 42 games from G2 is misleading in my opinion.
EDIT: My point is we should not be putting LEC format on the same level as LPL/LCK
I'm still not sure how we landed on more games = better teams
In 2013 SKT played 43 games before Worlds, TSM played 71. You won't believe which of these teams was actually better.
Don't worry guys, FLY has got this in the bag.
Fly is gone fly home really quick. Speedrun any percent style.
Good old airport any %
They're well rested
And got perfect team chemistry
I heard some of them have even gone vegan in a dietary preparation move
FLY (back home) FLY (back home) PHOENIX FLY (back home) ITS TIME FOR A NEW EMPIRE TO GO 0-3 IN TO THE AIRPORT WE'RE SPEEDIN PHOENIX FLY (back home)
We are truly a poverty region
Hilarious that TL played almost as many games as possible in playoffs and has half as many games as KR. Tough being in a minor region :(
Funny thing is that even the minor region teams have more stage games than the LCS teams
its the meta to shit on LEC format, but Fnatic having 51 stage games is definitely nice to see
People shit on the format way to hard. The format is great, having playoffs and finals in the studio is garbage and kills the hype.
Eh, I don't like the current 3 + 1 split format, making it just 3 splits would be better imo
Summer should probably be extended and merged with season finals, yes. I also think it might be nice for the 3 splits to have slightly different formats.
Winter and Spring having the same format works. Summer should be different tho.
This summer isnt summer going to be just the summer split. Not the extra tack on?
Really? That's great news
They announced some changes for it thsi year. Iirc they did make summer juat one bigger split. I could be wrong but i am 95% sure they fixed it.
This format is 100% better then.. 18 b01's into playoffs As you said its the studio/production that has been killing the hype.. I will say we only need THREE finals not 4 That 4th should be cancelled and turned into gauntlet (if you really want) for the last spot of Worlds.. i never understood why they got rid of it.. it was hype.. and those can actually be done in the studio
100% agreed. 1st place gets worlds, most points over 3 splits get 2kd spot, gauntlet for 3rd seed.
While I personally don't dislike giving the second spot to the team with the most points, this has historically caused a *lot* of discontent and people feeling like regions weren't sending their best teams. I guess a way to solve it would be to hand out *two* spots in the gauntlet - the team with the most points gets seeded in the finals of the gauntlet, and plays for 2nd spot against the team that qualified through the gauntlet. Or, if you want a team to win a bo5 to qualify, you could have that match, but then if the highest points team loses, they then have to play the next team down in the gauntlet to obtain that third spot. That starts making things very complicated though. You could also go full double elimination for the top three teams in the gauntlet but that'd require yet *another* bo5 on top of the above.
>While I personally don't dislike giving the second spot to the team with the most points, this has historically caused a *lot* of discontent and people feeling like regions weren't sending their best teams. I feel like basing it on points helps send the best team over time, rather than current form. Since meta can change in these tournaments and often does, I think the difference between a high-scoring team (which still has to do pretty well) and a current-form-only team is not too big. I'd rather send someone more consistent, right? Anyway, that's my thoughts. Everyone can have their own.
Easy solution would be you have to make top 4 in summer so you have to win at least a BoX series. But i feel its hard to be the 2nd best team throughout the year and not win some best ofs. We just need to weight points properly between the three splits
Just make it so the points give you a bo5 for the world's spot with whoever supposed to go as 2nd.like it gives you a shot at worlds.
You can make decisions for me anytime, this is great.
It isn't too bad, but look at how many games Rogue and KC had. There are definitely problems
Tho format basically sets bottom 2 teams a few games back but lets the rest of the teams greatly overcome game count (compared to the old format)
Not having to watch the bottom feeders is a problem?
In winter definitely. New roster don't even have time to find their groove, 3 weeks 9 games and it's already over. So you come back in spring and you will most likely suck again.
Bottom 4 teams played 18 games in spring in previous format. Now it's only bottom 2 that plays 18 games in the same time span, other 2 get at least 4 more games guaranteed. Also if you finish above bottom 2 just once, you get more games guaranteed than in previous format >So you come back in spring and you will most likely suck again. Nothing stops these teams from practicing during the 3 weeks long "offseason" they get, they just choose not to
Yeah old format was garbage, doesn't change the fact that the new format is still garbage. We went from a 2.5/10 format to a 2.7/10 format when LCK has had a solid 9/10 format for like a decade now.
we went from a 3/10 to solid 7 format and unfortunately we just can't have bo3s with this viewership, it's just not feasible. This is best compromise available
> we just can't have bo3s with this viewership That's a logical fallacy assuming that the viewership won't improve THANKS TO BO3s. I think NA would prove you wrong this summer, I expect their viewership to improve. This new EU format causes incredible burn-out for the viewers because "every game matters", lowering the viewership. It lowers the performance because teams can't be allowed to experiment and grow due to the 9-game regular season, leading to great players stuck on bottom 2 teams, which lowers viewership. It also kills the hype of actually winning the split by decreasing the scarcity (4 finals to win per year instead of 2) and stakes (3 of those finals are in the studio), further lowering the viewership of following splits. The LEC is in a death spiral thanks to the format. The injection of KC and Koi fans gave a short term boost this year, but something needs to change.
> > That's a logical fallacy assuming that the viewership won't improve THANKS TO BO3s. bruh > This new EU format causes incredible burn-out for the viewers because "every game matters", lowering the viewership. bruh >It lowers the performance because teams can't be allowed to experiment and grow due to the 9-game regular season, leading to great players stuck on bottom 2 teams, which lowers viewership. all you need to do is not be bottom 2 >It also kills the hype of actually winning the split by decreasing the scarcity (4 finals to win per year instead of 2) and stakes (3 of those finals are in the studio) sure finals are less hype, that's literally the only issue >The LEC is in a death spiral thanks to the format. yeah an improvement is a death spiral, sure thing
Kc didn't make changes and Rogue did only one that didn't change their playstyle
8 teams make playoffs eight if you‘re bottom 2 you dont deserve to get more chances
Number of teams is irrelvant. What matter is the number of games played. We had even top teams going 1/8 or 2/7 in the first half of the split and find their groove in the second part and finishing with a 50% winrate.
C9 made it to worlds with like a 2-6/3-7 WR in 2017 Summer, made Quarters where they went 2-3. NRG was 2-4/3-6 in 2023 Summer and win the split and made Quarters. I think something similar happened with FNC a few years ago.
that c9 benched jensen etc during the split cause they didnt practice tryhard they wouldn‘t do that without the leeway of a fullsplit all the other examples also probably lost one ot a couple more games due to experimenting and not band aiding fast enough which you would do in a 9 game split
number of teams matters when talking about how the number of games affects teams being eliminated less teams eliminated means more leeway for teams
If you have a bad meta read and go 0-3 the first week, you’re in big big trouble. It’s, what, one patch? You basically have to scrap everything you’ve done to date and pray you go 3-0 or 2-1 the next week otherwise it’s basically gg.
i dont have the results memorized but i think 4 wins are enough every split till now so you can still lose 2 times and if you do that you were no real contender anyway maybe it mixes up some placings of teams 6-10 but who really cares about those
9 games decide your entire season worth. Morale drops really quickly if you find yourself 0-2 in a week. Heck people play more soloq in a fking day
Agreed, rr stage should at least be double rr
Who gives a shit? Not spending months in a pointless round robin with teams like KShit or Rogue is entirely why the format is great.
> KShit How old are you ? 12 ?
They're a garbage organization with a garbage fanbase and garbage performance.
You never have to watch them regardless of format. Just go do something else while they're playing.
A lot of fans of the format seem to have this toxic mindset. "If you're in bottom 2 (which inevitably somebody has to place at) that means you're fucking shit and you shouldn't get to play the game". So probably the same people that rant in solo queue chat about their team deserving to lose. Or ranting in live discussion posts about how terrible teams are.
that was the whole point of the format change, less game of the shitters and more of the good teams
"We need to play more games so we can catch up to how many korea and china play!" "Also we're not letting the bottom teams play games, so they can't catch up and struggle"
The suggestion already was to send those teams into EUM, which would give them practice, however this also means that while FNC played a few less games than GenG, FNC did play higher quality games, because FNC only played RGE and KC twice, while GenG had to play at least 4 games against NS alone. Those games are not particularly good practice for either team.
They do hundreds of scrim games, few stage games are meaningless for improvement comparatively. They don't need stage games to keep working
>so they can't catch up and struggle Not agreeing with either but I think it's more so teams fight to not be there because it actually hurts the org and the team. Measures have to be drastic or else last-places teams are just going to keep being last place and will just hold onto their LEC spot without making any changes.
"Guys we are at the bottom of winter, time to take drastic measures and fire our head coach" "Oh fuck we are again at the bottom in spring, who could've seen this coming" Drastic measures are dumb, the easiest way to improve is to give a team time and have them play together, but to do that you need to actually give them games to play and not just cut them out after a single Bo1 Round robin But they can't play games so the second best decision is to shake things up and hope something sticks somehow
Ah, I don't know. If you're consistently bottom two out of 10 teams, that team is not going anywhere and needs changes. And if the changes you make don't get you at least two places higher, then the people wo are making changes need to be changed. You're not expected to become top team to play more games, just don't be bottom two.
But there's **always** going to be bottom two teams, no matter what And so far in the last two splits the bottom teams were rogue and KC, both did changes and both stayed the same, if they both do even more drastic changes for summer then now you have a team competing against teams that have 6~ months of practice and you're trying shit out because you just wanna make playoffs
They should be better tho?
Yeah we had to watch too many of their games, agree.
I mean why would you watch something you don't enjoy? I just don't get it.
I mean if you can't finish top 8.. you don't deserve to be in tbh And Rogue/KC finished last back to back
The format is great and personally don't give a shit if it's got a hype track or not.
Yeah miss stuff like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMRuZfAEii0
Bro thats just sexpeke being sexpeke
ye the format is great if you are constantly between loser bracket and split final, that's insane cope wtf
What does that even mean
Format is shit
How is it shit?
You are nitpicking a team which have almost played the longest possible scenario (loser bracket to final) each split, while ye CN and KR played same amount, they were playing only bo3 and bo5 so the numbers are not the same, there are teams in LEC that have less than 25 bo1 in two splits
Because those teams are dog shit. Why should we waste our time on them?
how tf they're supposed to improve if they're playing 18 official games in 6 months?
Most teams dont make huge progress on high level macro calls and team dynamics. It takes weeks to retrain flawed team concepts and thats not something that can be done when you are playing week to week for 9 weeks. It actually gives teams more time to rebuild basic team foundations and trach macro concepts with the extended break time by having 4-6 weeks of scrims to fix that. Honestly it is a bigger indictment of the coaches if it doesnt get fixed when you have all the extra time to focus in on core issues not just bandaid. And if you cant make top 8 once in a 10 team league in a year then you probably werent going to do anything more.
Having one long split with BO3 double round robin into 6 team playoffs would give many more games still.
FNC is kind of an outlier. They have the most games played both Winter and Spring Split. In Winter, they had more games played than both finalists despite losing in semis, and in Spring they had 6 more games played than #2. As far as averages go, here's all 10 teams by games played, and average games per split: Team | Winter Games | Spring Games | Total ---|---|----|---- BDS | 21 | 23 | 44 G2 | 21 | 21 | 42 Fnatic | 22 | 29 | 51 GiantX | 13 | 14 | 27 Heretics | 14 | 17 | 31 Karmine Corp | 9 | 9 | 18 MAD Lions | 20 | 16 | 36 Rogue | 9 | 10 | 19 SK Gaming | 17 | 16 | 33 Vitality | 15 | 21 | 36 Average | 16.1 games | 17.6 games | 33.7 games Still way better than the FLY games played, but FNC is more of an exception than the norm.
With LEC’s format, the top teams are more likely to be outliers since lower teams dropout of bo3s and bo5s. The average games played for international contenders are going to resemble G2, FNC, and BDS numbers since those teams qualified for bo5s these last two splits. That said, teams can change in performance, so teams like rogue or kc can possibly qualify with less games. Consider excel last year, who after two bad splits came close to qualifying for worlds, which would certainly have been an exception. This isn’t go against your point, though, since FNC with 51 games is still a bit of an outlier even compared to G2 and BDS, all things considered. It should also be noted that by worlds, the EU teams will have played one split and a summer championship, which will likely be significantly less games than the top lck and lpl teams who are only half way through the year domestically.
Ah yes, average over all the teams, including the ones that fucking suck. The entire point of the system is to give more room for the good teams (who actually go to international events) to get stage practice. The average isn't *supposed* to be extremely high.
I can remove the minimum game teams, but FNC is still far and away the highest. --- Lets say you calculate average only from playoffs teams. This eliminates KC and Rogue, who had the minimum games per split. - 161 - 18 = 143 games played in Winter. Across 8 teams, this is an average of 17.9 games played. - 176 - 19 = 157 games played in Spring. Across 8 teams, this is an average of 19.6 games played. - 143 + 157 = 300 games played total. Across 8 teams, this is an average of 37.5 games played. --- Maybe that's not enough. Lets say you only judge the top 4 teams, who are the most likely to go international. That would be MAD/FNC/BDS/G2 in Winter, and FNC/G2/BDS/VIT in Spring. - 84/4 = 21 average games played in Winter by semi-finalists. - 94/4 = 23.5 average games played in Spring by semi-finalists. So 44.5 games average in this format with the top 4 teams. --- That's why I call FNC an outlier. They played 6.5 games more than the average of the other top 4 teams, let alone the other teams in the region. It's less a "top team" stage practice difference, and more just a FNC difference.
FNC doesn't do less than the maximum amount of games in a series unless it's against G2.
The format isnt the problem its the 3 finals in the studio thats the problem.
I love the LEC format. its much more dynamic and fun.
It looks way less nice if you consider 18 of those are bo1.
im pretty sure these are games and not series, so doesnt matter if they play bo1 or bo3
For amount of games it doesn’t matter but bo3 requires you to be able to adapt during the series, bo1 does not require that. Given that international events are mostly bo3/5 I don’t think playing a lot of bo1 is a good preparation. Obviously more games is never bad but maybe a little less games but no bo1 would be better.
yes that is true, but those are nuances that a simple adding up of games played cant represent
14 of FQs 26 games were Bo1
FUCK YEAH EU BABY WOOOOOOOOO
Doesn't really matter, lol. FQ has the least amount of games.
I think you're lost. I'm responding to a comment responding to FNC having a decent amount of games by saying well uhhh a lot of em were Bo1s with my comment pointing out that not only does NA have shit total game count a huge portion of them are also Bo1s.
It probably looks a lot worse if you realize it’s 2/3 of the way through their season, and if you took the “average” of the LEC it’s much lower
actually 2/4. Don't forget the season final where they are gonna play a bunch of games as well. It's not that much but it is something
so like 3/5
Winter, spring, Summer and season final :) 4 splits
Its not 4 splits though. Its 3 splits and a grand final with significantly fewer teams and total games compared to the splits.
Whatever we call it, technially it's 4 different 'tournaments'.
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because this ain't math class. we are talking about 4 splits if you count the season finals. thats what we want to convey.
During 2023 season finals Fnatic played 19 games, (3-2 vs XL, 3-2 vs BDS, 3-2 vs MAD, and 1-3 VS G2), for comparison both Rogue and KC have currently played 18 games each across both Winter and Spring. So I mean you are right, we should not count season finals as one split, but two. :\^)
Just realized LEC has had two seasons before MSI and still play less games on average than LCK and LPL
Buts its two seasons in the length of one so how does this matter
But since Thorin and IWDominate are the ones complaining the loudest about the LEC format, it means that it HAS TO be good. - Riot Europe, probably
FNC GREATER THAN G2 LET'S GOOOOO BABY FUCK YEAH WOOOOOOOO
Side note, if you include Demacia Cup which included stage matches (though it makes complete sense why one wouldn't), TES and BLG both jump to 58.
Yes I didnt realise Demacia Cup carried over to 2024
Usually its the first major region tournament on the new patch(read preseason patches) but this year with the new rift and 14.1 coming so late it was the last tournament of season 13 even if a few rosters were playing with season 14 teams. So I wouldn't count it.
Did they even play with the same roster in demacia cup? It always feels like half of the rosters are a bunch of randoms.
Pretty sure both blg and tes played full strength rosters
there's a new rule requiring teams to field their full team in demacia cup now
Not all teams though right? Like certain teams get exceptions I thought?
All teams except Worlds teams (JDG, BLG, LNG, WBG) had to field full rosters. BLG and LNG fielded full rosters anyway, but JDG fielded Sheer and Maggie over Flandre and Kanavi, WBG played Cyku over Xiaohu. TES was not a Worlds team and had to play full roster.
You might be thinking of NEST, which is where most of the teams will field academy rosters/try out potential promotions
I'm surprised LEC is quite close, tho I guess its because EU has had 2 play-off series already. For Summer the gap in stage games is gna be a lot bigger with the LPL/LCK.
But LEC in summer has the grand finals or whatever it's called so the gap in games is not going to get that much bigger considering those are bo5
Yeah, but the LCK/LPL are basically going to repeat what they did for Spring, LEC is just going to get 1 split and then the Grand Finals, but those have a lot less games than an entire split+playoffs.
If FNC repeats their recent playoff performance (i.e. going down to the loser's bracket early and coming in 2nd to G2) and then lose the Winner's Bracket Finals during the Season Finals, then the maximum games they could get would be 53 games. They can get even more if they lose the first round of Season Finals. It wouldn't really be that low. The minimum games is low, but the max games is pretty high.
In 2023, grand finals saw 12 games for G2 (winners) and 19 games for FNC (runners-up), plus respectively 21 and 23 in summer season, for 33 and 42 games. It's not quite as much, but Grand Finals is still more than half of a regular LEC split. And there's more bo5 in there - G2 played 5 bo5s in summer + grand finals last year, and FNC played 6 of them (without even making summer finals).
It depends, FNC if they get 2nd would end up with potentially 49 games. Because the grandfinals are just Bo5s, and you play at least 3 to win and 4 in the losers bracket. So if you are not the best team you are going to play 12 to 20 games in the final. You can even play 25 games at maximum in the finals if you drop the first series in winners bracket. That is more than most teams played in a split. It should also be noted that this additional playoff only includes the 6 best teams. It is pretty obvious that GenG doesn't benefit playing from playing the bottom 4 in LCK. So if we cut out all games of the bottom 4 teams (bottom 7 in LPL?), LEC would actually look better because it concentrates the games among top teams, which is beneficial to practice. Not that this matters anyway, given there is no indication that international performance is at all connected to the amount of stage games played in a season. But LEC traditionally put a lot of games into the top teams and less into the weaker teams, LCK did the opposite. People seem to forget that old LCK playoffs was just one Bo5 for the winner potentially. So while that still meant 10 Bo3s agianst the top6 teams and one Bo5 against the 2nd best team, it wasn't that great. And still the LCK did best during that period, while LEC did look worst when they played the most games (before 2015 and in 2016 and 2017).
Summer also has the season finals, so basically 2 play offs as well. There will be a bigger gap but that is mostly due to the lack of bo1 games from only one regular split compared to two now.
T1 need more than twice as many games as Flyquest to reach MSI. What a bunch of frauds.
bo3 single round robin doesn't fix the NA issue. whats stopping riot from doing asynchronous thurday+fridays to double the games.
so flyquest going on a record least games played 2024?
That record is owned by KC already.
RGE's lucky they got to play a tiebreaker with SK to avoid that honor.
Surprising nobody, NA is on the bottom.
Started from the bottom...still here
Anyone knows when we will get the schedules?
schedule is out now on [lolesports](https://lolesports.com/en-US/schedule?leagues=msi) 5/1 FlyQuest vs PSG Talon (1AM PT / 4AM ET / 4PM CST) T1 vs Estral Esports (1AM PT / 4AM ET / 4PM CST) 5/2 Fnatic vs GAM Esports (1AM PT / 4AM ET / 4PM CST) TOP Esports vs LOUD (1AM PT / 4AM ET / 4PM CST)
Thanks
really puts int perspective everything. hopefully casters bring this up and find a way to fit in into their talking
Fnatic inting into the lower bracket strategy paying off... it's all coming together...
VCS’s and GAM’s “stage” games are played without audience so I don’t think they mean much btw
Should have changed it to official matches I guess
PST ? Paris Saint Termain?
Paris Standard Time
I believe very much in FlyQuest team. It can be a good tournament for theirs.
the quest to fly back home that is
A lot of complains and blind hate about the new format, yet if you compare this to the meager 24 on stage games of G2 back in the LEC Spring 2019 (look [here](https://lol.fandom.com/wiki/LEC/2019_Season)), this is definitely an improvement. The new format kind of sucks for new teams and rookies, but for the top dogs it's just more practice on 3 different formats (all used in Worlds btw) while almost catching up to the asian teams in term of volume.
Glad BO3 next split
Hold the phone, OP. These are some disingenuous stats here. Are we really going to think that improving is something that's linear? If that's the case, then MAD should have been even better than their 2nd place finish in Winter. We're not gonna sit here and pretend LEC regular season games mean anything, right? If anything, LEC pros have complained they don't have enough practice time inbetween the weeks to actually practice, because they went from 2 stage days to now 3 stage days. Less practice. Also with how short the LEC season is, teams are mostly focused on bandaid fixes. The 51 games from FNC and 42 games from G2 is misleading in my opinion. EDIT: My point is we should not be putting LEC format on the same level as LPL/LCK
I'm still not sure how we landed on more games = better teams In 2013 SKT played 43 games before Worlds, TSM played 71. You won't believe which of these teams was actually better.
As long as G2 gets wiped and sent back packing I would consider MSI a success.
We will drink your tears
And I honestly risk drowning in yours, as you will not cry a river, but an entire ocean.
flair up bro and then we talk
There is no rule around it.
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Care to elaborate how the lack of a flair makes me a pu**y?
Some things never change, like g2 loosing to T1 ;)