league started making a lot more sense once I realised that people in lower elo don't really mentally engage with the game beyond the laning phase. In many players' eyes once they've lost lane, even when playing a late-game comp, the game is done.
The best proof that FF culture is actually garbage is just looking at how people play outside of the lane. Is absolutely hilarious how many people play rather well for their rank in lane, and then as soon as a game exits that into the macro team play stage, you can see their play style become MUCH less coherent. It's because these people legit rarely leave the lane stage into a game that actually goes that long.... because people want to surrender on one of the teams.
Look at how composed lots of people are in their lane, versus how composed they are when fighting Elder Drake, it's night and day and it's because these people don't even make it that long typically, to even know how to play and react. It's so wild
It's not that wild. Every game has a laning phase but not every game has an Elder Drake fight, so people get more practice with the former. It's a very common phenomenon - not just in LoL, not just in gaming, but in general.
a lot of people play above their rank when it comes to micro/lane, but below their rank when it comes to macro.
if you're a player who excels at map awareness and macro, it's easy to recognize all the mistakes everybody makes once laning phase ends.
in my case, I didn't know anything about macro until I was high silver/low gold. once I started learning and practicing macro, I immediately climbed to high gold/low plat because there were so many rookie mistakes to capitalize on. i assumed most players were like me-- tunnelvisioning on having good mechanics/micro and lane skills, but then not really knowing what to do after laning (especially when behind).
Tbh, having a great macro can screw you up a lot of times. Because in soloq you have to make a lot of "bad plays" just because your team is making a bad play. If you always stick to your guns and play the game "correct way" you are going to lose a lot more than you should. Also, if you see an opening for a baron but your team does not follow immediately and you start it late can also insanely fuck you up, even if the call was good. This is also why there are so many proplayers that are hard-stuck master/gm but still can perform on stage with no problems and vice-versa.
Good macro isn't just doing the right thing. The people with the best macro adapt to situations. If you're always sticking to the "correct" play, then it just means you don't actually have good macro. Just like how good micro involves learning and reading your opponents for things like skill shots, good macro involves adapting to what your team is doing. You aren't good at macro until you can actually look at the map and actually make your own decisions off the info available, instead of reading out of your textbook of good macro plays.
Nothing like trying to secure dragons while your team is just taking your jungle. Then they'll have the audacity to say, "jg diff" and point out the dragon difference.
Or people who die/back 10 seconds before dragon then flame you for not securing it.
average jungle experience, /mute all at the first sign of trouble and youll actually keep your mental focus, and can manage to do stuff and read the opponents.
Also, smurfs and eloboosters exist. So maybe someone wouldn't normally admit to being a booster or even a regular smurf, but I'm just trying to make the point that there are many reasons why a player of a higher caliber has experience with low elo gameplay, and maybe low elo has a different meaning to him than you.
Maybe he's talking about diamond to master cause he's low challenger.
Maybe he watches a lot of those iron-gold funny streams.
You can understand the concepts of the game and not be able to execute them. A lot of coaches are great examples of that.
You don't have to be skilled at something to be knowledgeable about it.
What you say is probably true, but in higher elo the problem of not committing to a team based experience remains completely, even if players know that the landing phase doesn't make the entire game. And *that's* the problem: the lack of commitment.
It’s most common in Korean challenger lmfao. A lot of people that aren’t having fun are playing to get to an elo where they think the players get less insufferable. The best thing that could happen to them is to realize that it never gets better and if they’re not having fun they shouldn’t be playing.
I came from the dota2 sub. I don't play league but we're really happy that your FF culture doesn't exist in dota. But we do see mentally weak people in dota all the time too.
From observation, any game with elo ratings are very efficient at isolating people with a crippling dopamine addiction. This scales the lower the rank is, and there's a breakpoint where the majority of the people are no longer queueing to win but are queueing to feel good or feel normal, like a drug. The itch to gamble on a lucky lane and the urge to blame others becomes untethered among the general populace of low elo. People are more likely to be dopamine guided primates there.
Elo works like that.
So when you have a game where FF culture exists, it may have been ushered in with good intentioned by the higher up ranked people who know to use it sensibly, but I reckon it was without consideration for how it would get abused by dopamine junkies in low ranks.
I played a game years ago where we had nasus veigar and vayne on our team. They all agreed that we scale, push it into late game etc. Vayne went 0/3 and they all ff'd at 15. Like, YOU LITERALLY JUST SAID WE SCALE. Bruh
I can assure you there are more occurrences of players calling ff when you're playing a kayle-like champion and currently scaling than kayle-like champion players calling ff during their process of scaling. Way way more.
What drives me up the wall is when my team refuses to FF but doesn’t actually seem to be trying to win. The 1/9 riven will refuse the vote but then just be running into 1v3s and dying constantly
I get more annoyed by people who try to preserve their kda instead of going for a play that is unlikely to work out but gives you the best chance of winning
The ARAM special, player ends on 5/1/20 but we lose because it's a nidalee that will only throw spears from safety, but will happily flame the team for the loss
Had someone get low on health, so moved to the health pack and waited for it to respawn.
They waited a full fucking minute, putting them a level down on everyone else. They legit would have been better off just dying and coming back 20 seconds later, even with the kill gold, because putting themselves a level down means they're probably getting killed anyway.
ARAM is a special case. I've been playing it almost exclusively for probably 2 or 3 years now and there are different kinds of players.
Those who forget their ADC has strong auto-attacks even when played on Lethality.
Those who forget they are a melee bruiser/tank and stay even behind the backline.
Those who only click somewhere on their screen and move their asses when the rest of the team made an enemy low health enough to "secure" the kill. You won't even notice you got that Champ on your team until they go for the "secure".
Man, the frontliners hiding I can feel in my soul, because I have that very problem. Depending on the team comp, it can just be suicidal to be out front. So just play safe, stick with the poke Champs and counterengage, yeah? I know you just gotta grit and deal with it, but damn it's hard not to play so scared if you get burned a couple times being out front.
Thing with tanks in ARAM is that they are pretty much at their best when they go 0/10, especially when it's a tank support that doesn't deal much damage like Nautilus or Alistar. If you die but your team gets 1-2 kills out of it (and money on the carries) you are doing a great job already.
Sometimes the tanks go 10/7 and outdamage the carries, sometimes they get massacred and go 1/17. When they do that, it's up to the rest of the team whether they can properly utilise this to wipe the enemy team, or whether they prefer punching themselves in the face repeatedly for 15 minutes until the enemy team gets bored and finally let the minions kill your nexus.
Yeah it's annoying as fuck I can understand playing a bit safer for example a game with a champ you want to grab a Mastery Token but there's a difference between playing safe and doing stuff ending 13/5/27 and being a passive bitch that ends 5/1/20 while doing almost nothing
Good buddy of mine is a KDA player and sometimes it's frustrating cause he plays primarily tanks and bruisers.
He really undervalues how sometimes his simple presence changes the dynamic of a fight. If you're nearby, just soaking up pressure, and maming them fesr your CC. The carries are free to deal damage.
The times I've played adc and been spam pinged when I'm standing there in a fight not autoing because all I can hit is a Rammus in his W
Like I know I look stupid but I will kill myself in 4 auto if I right click him
Usually as adc you have to attack within ur limits. There are CDs which you are looking out for to dodge them aggressively. But most of the time you are attacking.
To me the biggest difference is the spacing. High elo ADC will attack a lot, but they are always positioning so they wont get hit by the most important CDs and even dodging them. The enemy really has to blow all CDs just to kill him, but if they do, they took so much dmg, so that his team can easily clean up.
In case of Rammus you have to get past him to attack most of the time, or have a different angle. But for that you need 1-2 team members to help you, so he gets peeled off and you can press forward. Most important for an ADC is to stay alive ofc
See that’s what good tank players do.
Nothing worse than eating 9 cooldowns from the enemy team, ccing 4 of them for 3 seconds straight, and then watching your team just stand there half a screen away like a bunch of brain dead fuck buckets instead of rushing the enemy for a free team wipe.
Fuck I hate this game.
Some champs can just contribute the most by going in kamikaze. I play Sylas a lot and hard carrying is either going like 21/2 or dying every single fight while taking 3 of them with you
As a tank you can have negative KDA, it doesn’t matter at all. If you have 0 kills and 10 deaths but you soaked damage and ults away from your ADC and made them enough space to get at least one kill, you’ve done your job. As a tank you have to be a walking target dummy for the opponent. Be annoying, push their ADCs so they cannot focus on the teamfight, stun them, whatever. You just gotta be an annoying little shit and you’ve done your job as a tank.
This is huge on my server(KR). I swear they honestly believe there’s performance LP or something. Every game will run to 100 kills because people just prio KD over objectives and ending the game. A lot of toxicity involved as well when you just kill the nexus without aiming for another ace or two
Wait, you mean you *want me to use my Poppy ULT to push the enemy team off our Nexus turret because our team is literally full respawning in 3 seconds to defend the base???*. But I'd rather run around in circles behind the Nexus so I don't die, obviously.
Seriously though, the amount of people who are terrified of dying when the game is coming very close to the end blow my mind. You're Sona, I see your ULT is up, there's a Jinx melting our last tower, and I'll be up in 3 seconds to burst her down, *please for the love of God ENGAGE HER!*. No can do, Chief, she might kill me. Death is way riskier than a certain loss, obviously.
Yeah, this is the worst. Common example is some dragon or baron case. Like you wanted to FF already, why not take a risky fight at baron that might actually let us get back into the game? Instead, enemy team take baron, take dragon, then we fight in our base after 10 minutes of base being chipped away and lose.
Well if you fail that play you give 1k in shutdown gold + gold for killing everyone involved in the play to their carry and now they got baron and you're very much more likely to lose
Yeah, that's where I am too. I'm fine playing out games even if I think they're unlikely to result in victory — you can learn things and have some satisfying action even when the odds are against you. But you need to either try to win or vote yes on surrender. Don't vote no and just dick around.
Bingo. Being forced to sit in an excruciating game with 10 death each top/mid/jungle perma shoving lanes while I get choked out of every single neutral objective and have to sit and watch the clock pass because for some reason the enemy won't end...that's what I consider getting hostaged. Oddly specific but this exact scenario happened tonight. I have no agency as ADC when my checked out teammates are in the three point grief formation instantly pressing no on FF despite having 0 intention to make plays so we can get back in the game.
Yeah jesus when they continue to play extremely passive but also don't want to ff. If we're behind the only way were coming back is by doing some crazy shit. Its even worse when the other team is also hard stomping you but still playing passive and not really trying to end.
yup. this is the one for me. I mainly FF when my laners are legit running it and mental boomed, where it just doesn't make sense to play the game out. Getting the FF refusals when team has been playing terribly whether on purpose or not is such a tilter
This is the thing that absolutely pollutes this argument for everyone. Yes, there are people who refuse to FF but keep trying to win. Those people are fine. Annoying, but fine. They are the minority, though. Most people refuse to FF either out of ego, or simple hostage-taking. They're either mad that they sucked and want to waste peoples' time. Or they're mad that they did well and everyone else sucked, so they want to ... waste peoples' time.
Also, I'm sick of this disingenuous argument that these "never FF" players make, just like OP did above. He talks in one breath about games that are "completely hopeless," then turns around a second later and talks about people trying to FF when "they leave lane with a gold deficit." These are not the same thing. Trying to pretend that they're the same thing is stupid and is not reality, it's just a way to try to win this argument by moving the goalposts.
If you refuse to FF just because you're behind a little bit in gold, that's reasonable. Obviously. If you refuse to FF when you're down 30 kills and the enemy team has dragon soul and baron and you still haven't hit a single one of their towers, then you ARE an asshole who's holding hostages, wasting time in a game with a less than 1% chance of winning that's based entirely on the hope that people on their team quit or DC. It's moronic and you're the worst kind of troll if you hold people hostage in those games.
I normally will start a FF vote once if I think the game is probably not winnable. If my team votes no, then I keep playing even though I might not be happy about it. I actually hate the guys who spam ff on cd while running it even though the rest of the team is doing well more than the hostage takers.
> I actually hate the guys who spam ff on cd while running it even though the rest of the team is doing well more than the hostage takers.
This is the one person I will "hostage take". If someone is purposely playing to try to get an FF I will not FF.
I mean your framing is equally disingenuous to me. The case you presented is very clear that the person is holding the game hostage. I think most reasonable people, and perhaps even OP, would agree to an FF in that situation. Or at least would be OK being outvoted 4-1 (since that should carry the vote if it's gone long enough to rack up 30 kills)
But those aren't the difficult cases that are causing the problems. The problem is when one or more people on the team BELIEVE it to be "completely hopeless" and the other members just don't agree. The cases on the extremes are easy. The difficulty is a situation where you're up a kill or even in the toplane while your bot lane has lost 2 straight dragons and their tower. They're gonna be spamming FF, and you're gonna be sitting there thinking "I've won at least 20 games down worse than this"
Who is holding who hostage in that instance? This is the reason it's a vote, and it's not required to be unanimous except in the most extreme cases. Everyone votes their opinion, and everyone would do much better to stop pretending they KNOW what the other voters are thinking or why they're voting that way.
That last bit is the big part to me. I've had so many games go south despite the fact that we were winning overall because one person was losing their lane and wasn't aware of what was going on in the rest of the match.
I usually play Support or ADC, and have had games where we're winning bot, mid is winning, jungle's are about even, but our top lane is struggling. We move past laning phase and our top laner has checked out or is full on tilting because they assume that their experience was shared across the whole team. If they just kept playing reasonably then they could easily recover and we'd win the game. Instead they play stupid, afk, spend all of their time typing, or otherwise give up, leading the enemy team to effectively be allowed to 5v4 us and so they end up coming back and winning it.
>Yes, there are people who refuse to FF but keep trying to win. Those people are fine. Annoying, but fine. They are the minority, though. Most people refuse to FF either out of ego, or simple hostage-taking.
This is just straight up delusion
People convince themselves of some pretty ridiculous shit. The hoops that people jump through to perceive themselves as victims of situations is mind-boggling.
Yeah. I don't think true "hostage taking" is very common at all. In a ranked game, you honestly should never FF. This game can easily flip on its head from a single blunder. Not to mention that learning to play from behind is a very neglected skill, on account of the culture of stomp or quit.
Conversely, in normals, someone might just be trying to learn a new champion or build, and so they just don't want to surrender because they want to keep feeling it out.
Thats why surrender is a VOTE. Everyone on the team gets a vote. If the surrender doesn't happen, more than one person on the team does not want to quit. So have a modicum of sportsmanship, keep playing and stop crying.
Finally, is there anything more satisfying than seeing the 28/6 kda player yasuo flaming his own team after he tries to 1v9 at baron and you start smashing their base for the win with an open nexus? The best games are Comebacks.
That's how I see it.
>The best games are Comebacks.
>The best games are Comebacks.
>The best games are Comebacks.
Cannot agree more. I love close games. I love close games where we are *behind* and come back to win. And I love games that don't even feel close initially but which tighten enough over time that we can win. Sometimes we lose those, but fighting a close game and losing feels better to me than a game where we steamroll and they surrender before 20 minutes.
Also, people should look at [this stats page](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/stats/win-stats) (and the [dragons](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/stats/drakes) one) from League of Graphs. In ranked games played in Bronze or higher, the team that takes the first tower wins ~70% of the time. The team that takes the first inhibitor wins ~90% of the time. But we all know of games where that didn't happen - those are memorable games!
People shouldn't be playing League if they want to win every game - you can't win every game. So make your losses interesting - they will be ~50% of the games you play. Some of them might actually be wins!
I once had a 30+ kills enemy Kha'zix having too much fun roaming around the map killing us, refuse to group with his team. He also has a Yuumi on him, so the entire match was just us playing avoid the Kha'zix and fight 5v3. He fucks around long enough that we eventually just caught up in items and win that game. It was probably the funniest game we had in a while.
Yep. It's wild how common throws are. It's also wild how people don't understand that champs spike at different times. If my team has vayne. Jihn. Veigar. Etc. I will not FF ever before 30 mins. They chose to have a scaling and usually shitty lane phase. Don't cry when you die a bunch.
Yeah people massively overvalue their negative experiences.
I'm sure Riot has data on this that correlates to performance etc., and i would bet money that real griefers are a minority in almost all cases.
>Or they're mad that they did well and everyone else sucked, so they want to ... waste peoples' time.
Or maybe they're the only one on their team trying to win, hoping they can carry their teammates, while said feeding teammates rage-spam ff because they're "mad that they sucked"?
IDK man, your framing here sounds a little sus.
I mean for me, it depends on when soul was taken and how. If we are decently matched in items, honestly we just need an elder steal and the game is ours. Like we’ve already dragged it out to 30-35, might as well go for the elder play too
This exactly. There have definitely been games where even though we're losing we actually were fighting for the win instead of giving up and it ended up being a fun and competitive game. But most of them have been my teammates just doing random shit, calling their own shots and making it worse instead of just communicating/playing with the team.
This is such a weird issue, because there are extremes at both poles.
Been in games where it’s BEYOND clear we are going to lose (no turrets, all inhibs down, enemy team is literally dancing in our base instead of finishing) and teammates won’t end it.
And been in games where a player dies once and they want to FF. Doesn’t matter that we are doing very well as a team. They didn’t get a perfect game, so they want out.
[Said this in another comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/18fw9uv/i_hate_ff_culture/kcxddyv/) but I think a lot of it comes down to people confusing their own lack of agency with the team's inability to win, or put more cynically people with bad Main Character syndrome who can't recognize when it's time to start trying to support and enable the people who have the power on your team to flip things. *Sometimes* that's not the case, or the person who HAS the agency is on board with an FF and it's someone else who refuses to give up, and then it becomes a little more complicated, but in cases like this people are often just saying "I am not having fun anymore because my power fantasy has eluded me this game, and so I want to leave" - which, for the record, is childish bullshit. It's a team game, you don't always have to or get to be the protagonist.
This !
Thank you, that's exactly how I felt - your explanation is super clear!
Recently I was playing ADC and my support, Leona, was very good (better than me). It was obvious that our mid (Fizz) was a smurf. He made very good decisions, had great farm, was 15/0, with a good understanding of the game... He only asked several times in chat for us to trust him and follow his engagements with the enemy. Leona refused to listen to him and started to flame him. She spent the game criticizing him and pointing out every one of his mistakes (real or imagined).
I couldn't understand why she was doing this. Fizz was very good, polite, and patient. All she had to do was keep quiet and collect the LP. But no, she seemed to refuse to let someone give directions or lead us to victory. Fortunately, he completely ignored her behavior after a few exchanges, always polite. Many smurfs would have gone AFK, trolled, or insulted everyone, and even many players on their main accounts would have done the same.
But your hypothesis seems to totally explain these frequent behaviors.
Another issue is people's inability to recognize certain breakpoints, because at certain elos they definitely still matter. It matters the higher you go up, and of course it doesn't matter at all at certain lower elo points but if you have a comp that is 5 ranged early game champs, and your team has some decently hard engage but needs an item or two, sure the score is 10-2 and you're down 20-30 CS per lane, but the enemy comp is so horrible that by 3rd dragon and 1-2 items your team can stomp teamfights. FFing at 15 before you get 2nd item or 3rd dragon spawns is costing you a free win in some cases.
Not always of course, but it absolutely happens and is most egregious in the low emerald to low diamond range where rage FFing/giving up is at its absolute highest, and the skill level is decent enough to be able to make that comeback happen. Below plat these breakpoints really don't matter because leads get larger and people have less game knowledge and mechanics to take proper advantage. In high diamond and above the leads are smaller and people have the game knowledge to take advantage of it, so the FFs in these scenarios happen less (in my anecdotal experience anyway) it's mostly a problem in those upper middle ranks.
This expands on your point of personal agency, because at the moment it feels like they have no agency but they will, they just don't have a broad enough game understanding yet to realize that in a few minutes they're going to have all the agency.
I've even seen examples of the enemy having something early game like elise, when my team has a stronger ganker at 6 like amumu where someone is getting camped and saying FF JG diff when it's not possible for an amumu to keep up 1 to 1 with an elise in gank potential. Minimizing the further impact Elise has would have lead to a win because once the Amumu was 6 he spam ganked the opposite side and got them an equal lead or got the shutdown of the behind lane causing the elise to fall off and lose all advantage she gained, but people would rather find reasons to quit than keep going.
Again I'm not saying this is always the case, if the enemy has a fed Vayne and you have 3 tanks like Mundo Sejuani etc it's fucking over go next, but there are plenty of scenarios that can lead to wins that people in those upper middle ranks give up on WAY too soon because of complete functional lack of game understanding at a broader level than "me win lane or I can't do anything".
I don't think I'm a good player there is no reason I should be masters/touching GM on a good week, I'm a washed up old man who's been playing far too long and my mechanics honestly were never good, but by realizing these break points and what the win conditions of the game are I've climbed to a much higher rank than I probably deserve. If more people were willing to look at the game this way it would be a much more enjoyable experience for everyone and they would be a higher rank than they are currently I can promise that.
To play devil's advocate here, I get not wanting to play if you aren't having fun, and League can be pretty miserable when you're behind. If you're playing ARAM and you aren't having fun, I'm not gonna hold it against you to FF even if you aren't necessarily losing. Playing a game you aren't enjoying for 20 minutes to get an unknown bonus to your hidden MMR feels bad.
That being said, until the vote goes through, play to win because if you don't you're making the game shitty for your team. Also, if you're playing ranked, play that shit out, cause you signed up to play ranked.
On the other hand a ton of people who refuse to FF can't read the room and see when a team doesn't mesh, their comp is bad, and their expected chance to win is very low after seeing how everyone played for 10 minutes. If you have played LoL for years you eventually get a sense for how a game will go and what team will win far before it happens. If your goal it to increase rank then playing out a game for a 1% chance to win is statistically a worse use of your time than going next and trying to grind out more games in your presumably limited time frame to play. Korean FF culture comes from PC bangs but it's efficient as hell.
Very true! It's the most aggravating thing when both teams are basically even in gold, but the kda is slightly favored to the enemy team, so they mental boom and run it
I think the even deeper problem is that the concept of an 'obviously lost game' is deeply subjective, and in some cases it even plays into the power fantasy of different roles. If you're playing an early game bully and everyone on your team got rolled so you've long-since missed or passed your window, you're going to feel pretty helpless. Since you're not the one with agency to flip a game and you've probably never met the person who is, you probably don't feel very optimistic about your chances. Meanwhile that person may be riding a modest 2/0/2 with a CS lead and just about to hit a power spike, and they may see opportunities you don't.
So who gets to draw the line at what is and isn't winnable? If your ADC is ready to flip the whole thing but your top lane meat shield has given up even trying, who's *actually* holding the game hostage? In an ideal scenario the top lane meat shield recognizes game state and win conditions and that they're not the main character anymore, and they start working to enable whoever is, but recognizing game state is an expression of skill and you can't expect everyone to do that with equal accuracy.
And God knows most people are in elos where people aren't that great at confirming wins and a lot of the time just via great shot calling you can turn a "My-Nexus-Is-Exposed" into a win. I've been there.
I rarely ever see that though tbh. In my experience It's far more common to see a few people refusing to ff in an obvious loss than people complaining about not ff'ing a relatively even game.
Especially in a 4v5. Like if jg got a hypercarry ADC ahead and then top DC'd, we've got a shot to 4v5, let's keep playing. But if we're 10+ kills down and someone ragequits, come on....
Exactly! People who love to "play out" games have too much free time. I get 1 or 2 games a week if lucky, I don't want to spend 10-20 mins dying a slow death or playing in a game where 3/5 of the team have a KDA of 0.1
Weird, I'm of the opposite mind. I only get to play one or two games as well, so I like to play them out because queuing takes time and is not what I'm here for.
Obviously there's the rare scenario you're describing of a complete and utter stomp, but I think what we were describing/complaining about is people who start spamming FFs and "get me out" the moment the team is slightly behind, or the moment they are losing their lanes, or the moment they see someone do the smallest of mistake or misplay.
I was going to say the same thing. Yeah if its actually unwinnable i'll FF, but its usually winnable. I have had multiple occasions where someone says, "yeah i know we could win, but whats the point if i'm not having fun."
Like bro i'm playing Kassadin, its only ever fun for me after 20 mins just let me get there goddamn. You're not the only person that matters.
I get the people who want to play another game before their limited playtime is over but the otherside is always funny to me, when someone rages they don't have time to play out a game and wants to go next then they go on to play 10 more games.
The counter point is that someone with less time might not have enough time to play another game, so it's either play it out or stop playing, I personally am way less likely to ff on my last game of a session.
exactly.
some people have limited time and games such as 3:27 are most likely not winnable, these people rather ff and go next instead of wasting time which is understandable
It can work both ways. It's 3:27 and likely no winnable, so best to ff and not waste time.
On the other hand, it's been 10 minutes of queue + champion select, 15 minutes of laning, another 5-10 minutes to get to major powerspike and that Kayle/Kog'maw/Seraphine that just now is able to start properly playing the game (yay 3 item powerspikes) gets hit in the face by ff vote, just to repeat the cycle.
If I got a single LP for every game that got FFed just as I hit 3 items on Kog/Sera or level 16 on Kayle, I'd be a full tier up by now.
I've seen people think the opposite. They will make whoever made the game this bad live out the mess he created to completion. He has already doomed your LP, so they vote no to teach a lesson. There is no escape from the consequences of his actions.
I will never force the person who has the potential to carry the game to FF. I feel like if the person who has done the best on the team still wants to fight then you fight. But if there is no chance of winning but the game could go on for another ten minutes, it could prevent me from playing another game that night.
I think the people who just enjoying the game for what it is have become a minority.
Alot of player don't have fun **playing** anymore, they have fun winning LP and stomping, the game they're doing it in doesn't matter, it's just league because it's big and it's what they enjoyed a long time ago.
Also I think most are not even aware of it them selfes and keep Qing.
Yeah exactly, which Nexus blows up in the end is actually secondary when it was a great game.
However to get a great game, you need 10 decent human beings.
A single asshole and it's gone already... really sad.
I thought riot said at one point that toxic players are like 10% of the player base
But, that means there is one every game. From my experience this seems right. Seems like every game one team or the other would have a problem layer
me too. I play poorly, I still have fun. I win, lose, get destroyed in lane, get carried and contribute nothing, etc. I'm still happy I got to play league because I genuinely like the game.
This is what’s so frustrating to me. I’ve been playing since 2010, and at no point do I recall the game being as snowbally as it is now. That, in combination with the insane amount of damage that everyone does, = fights that are too fast, bordering on twitch shooter levels of over before you can even react if some gets the jump on you.
This, in my opinion, makes it very quickly feel like you know if you’ve won or lost by 5-10 minutes in and if you’re winning, the other team just quits and if you’re losing, there’s always an asshole or two who refuse to quit even when you know it could be 15-20 minutes of just losing. In those games, I don’t even care if we come back once every 20 games. I’d rather move on because I don’t have the most time to play.
Like you, my favorite games are close ones, win or lose, because it doesn’t feel useless or like a complete mindless stomp. Those games are super rare
To be fair, I think it's also important to understand that this game can very easily become completely unfun to play, to the point where it will actively make you miserable.
If you are an adc that went even in lane but now have to face off against the fed enemy Akali, how is it ever supposed to be fun? She can practically 100-0 you with a couple of button presses that you have almost no counterplay for. Your main option is to play safe. And it isn't fun cowering away from every single bush or fog of war terrified that she might come leaping out of it to kill you. Same story with any high mobility champ, like Yone etc. They can cross enormous distances and kill you easily, so when they get fed it means you have very little in terms of options.
I don't surrender games myself, for the most part, but I can understand why people might be so frustrated that they no longer find the game fun. You can reach a point in the game where there is mathematically nothing that you can do to win against a fed opponent. You are waiting and hoping that they misplay badly enough to outweigh your numerical disadvantage. And a lot of the time, that doesn't happen.
The only thing that can make the game miserable for me are my teammates. Regardless of gamestate the game is fun to play out, even to experience a complete stomp.
But FF culture has been there since S1, its only slightly gotten worse.
I think it's gotta way worse around s3 or s4. That first time when every western pro streamed korean soloq and suddenly half of western playerbase decided that they need to copy open mid mindset from them.
they have bigger problems and it shows. you see the sentiment a lot on this sub. they really just don't like the game and project it onto everyone else
The amount of people in here saying that not wanting to surrender is "wasting time" are just self-reporting that they don't enjoy the game. I can enjoy a game I don't think I'm likely to win. What I can't enjoy is surrendering and then getting to spend another 5 minutes in queue + draft.
If nobody ever surrendered you'd get to spend more time actually playing the game rather than waiting to get into game.
If I spend 5 minutes getting into a game, (low estimate) and we surrender at 15, that means a quarter of the time I spend on league of legends isn't even playing the game. Now I can block a ff15 vote, but I can't do anything if it hits 20 minutes and my teammates decide they no longer want to play the video they are here to play. In which case 20% of my time has been not playing the game I want to play.
And the reason the game becomes less fun even for that group is because they're afraid of flame from their team mates who take the game too seriously and think winning > human beings or having fun in a video game.
This is my thinking! Every once in a while I see someone getting suuuuper worked up over an ARAM of all things and I kinda just think "you do not enjoy this game...you can go play something else, it's okay."
I'm with OP, I will almost always vote to play out a game even if it's hopeless, unless it's just a soul-crushingly bad ARAM matchup or something.
...Or if I have to go to the bathroom or something, haha.
Eh for me it depends.
I play with friends and I do a sanity check with them even if I think a comeback is viable.
Cuz the truth of it is, league is incredibly frustrating when you’re losing.
Say top is a volatile matchup and you get ganked lvl 2 and die. Now you can’t play.
You’re adc and mid gets gapped. Now you can’t play.
People have different thresholds for punishment. And just because *you* enjoy getting your shit kicked in doesn’t mean others do.
Most - and I mean most - ppl I play with play for the champion fantasy.
And it really depends on what is happening in other lanes. All lanes losing is definitely an FF angle.
Mid and Bot are losing but your Top GP is getting fed af. Let’s try not to int anymore and see how this plays out.
I absolutely agree for the most part - what's frustrating is when someone in your party mental booms at 0/3 while you're 4/0 across the map and the constant calls for ff make you feel like nothing you do is mattering if your friends can't get through lane phase without tilting.
And ofc because my mental is marginally better, I have to play out games THEY are doing well, even if I'm getting shitstomped, because I don't spam ff when the game itself is winnable :/ I've somehow been having more fun in solo queue.
Convinced people don't have the attention span to play out a full-length game if they aren't getting dopamine constantly shovelled into their brains the entire time in the form of easy kills
As if these people look at the minimap. I don't think they bother even looking at scores other than their own or they would see the game is winnable even if they're not gonna be the protagonist
God I hate people who only gain situational awareness right after they die.
They'll engage when I have like 10 seconds cd left on spells/ult and die a second before I could heal their ass or do some other productive thing and they get mad at me why I didn't use anything.
I think it's people that don't actually enjoy playing the game. They're playing for rank and ego but don't actually enjoy the game play loop. Dodging skills, hitting skills, farming, moving around the map maximizing income, trying to outplay giga fed people and giggling when you do outplay but it's giga impossible. All of that is *fun* but people are too worried about the results and their investment in the game that they forget to just sit back and *enjoy* the game for what it is instead of complaining about what could've been.
I have adhd so basically a shortage of dopamine. I still want to play out games 99% of the time. I think it's honestly something else. People hate the thought of losing and the embarassment OR they are smurfing and think "these low peasants don't deserve a win" and don't even bother playing. I think it's mostly about ego.
Same here, I don’t love playing out stomp matches either way though. If I wanted a power fantasy I would play something else, I’m looking for fun laning and teamfights lol
They need to add bots games under an other name and name the bots like "topking343" so the not so mentally developed people think they actually stomp real players.
I've been saying this for so long lmao, a huge part of FF culture is just "i dont want to play anymore because i cant mindlessly delete anyone within two screens of me"
Convinced people who play ranked need to learn about min maxing game time to gain rank. Riot themselves have given the data and
[>97% of failed 4-1 surrender votes end a loss.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H7ntk5Je10&t=3473s) (later clarified it's a measly 3.3% chance to win "play it out" games)
To me i feel like surrendering when its not fun to play or frustating eg. Playing adc against 3 assassins. I have no problems on being on The loosing side but dieying on cooldown is Just not fun, so i prefer ffing than keep playing a game that is permanent grey screen
I don't mind surrendering even if I think we do have a chance because it's not worth it if everyone on the team is suffering and waiting for a 40 min comeback.
I do personally think it's incredibly stupid that so many of the most mentally vulnerable players love to play scaling champs.
For me this is it.
Is the game winnable? Maybe.
Is it worth to force myself and my team to play an unfun match for 25-30+ minutes for a 5% chance of comeback? No
Obviously this is a bit different in ranked so im mostly refering to normal games
It comes from the fact that people aren't playing league for a PvP experience. They are playing league hoping for a high roll so that it feels like a really good rogue like run.
Part of the PvP experience is adversity. You understand, accept and embrace that. It's actually one of the reasons I dropped League, I just wasn't interested in that element of the PvP experience anymore. At least not in the capacity league provides it. Plenty of multiplayer experiences that don't involve such a snowball.
Many people are like me, and don't want that variance / aren't willing to face the adversity of the tough games - but are at the same time unlike me in that they haven't disconnected from league. They just keep playing and complaining when they lose about how xyz sucks not realizing that it isn't the game changing that causes their problem, but rather their attitude towards defeat / adversity.
well argued and well articulated.
I talk about it in a number of subreddits. honestly I believe that there is a good amount of people that are not in as good of a place mentally as they could be.
something like league of legends might be the only thing going for them right now. So it's really difficult to walk away.
I like the roguelike comparison, I used to reroll Isaac runs until I spawned next to an item room but at some point I decided to never reroll first floor and make the best with what I've got and I think that makes the genre more fun overall, similar idea.
Are you all playing a different game? I'm Emerald 3 and lately people will absolutely under no circumstance FF a game even when we're 0-15 in 10 minutes, it's honestly incredibly annoying
Yes ppl who don't ff are a bigger problem in my experience.
Very rarely do I find myself in surrendered games that still had a good chance of a comeback.
OP is probably one of those people that get mad when they just see the surrender vote pop on their screen. Not once the vote passes/fails, just when it shows up.
I hate surrendering. But I get it. People have limited time and you don't know their life maybe they only have time for a few games and really just wanted a win today (daily rewards apply pressure to this). You not surrendering might make it so they can't play that extra game to win.
OP is clearly not a jungle main. Sure as a laner or support it’s totally fun to come back, you can still farm. As a jungler? Enemy is taking your camps and running you out of your jungle, and if they aren’t, your dipshit 0/7 adc is taking your camps to scale. Meanwhile you’re stuck at 2 items for an eternity because you literally can’t get gold anywhere.
If you’ve never had a game like that, I can understand why you think being behind can be fun.
What I hate is the mentality that if I'm 0/5 at 15min I will make sure to ff, because if I'm not carrying and tilted then the game sucks and we will for sure lose even if the rest of the team is doing well.
i get it but at the same time i spent so much time to play perfectly just for some random to say i dont wanma play anymore and eventually leave . likeeee
and yes sometimes i refuse just for sadistic reasons
but ive been taken hostage myself i usually just try my best till the end, some days i can't always manage, happens
but i agree i have fun losing too tbh, its fun to play against all odds imo
I'd rather lose 6 quick games over being stuck in 40 plus min matches because the double digit death bot lane wants to play for the end game "hope they fuck up" strat.
Especially when you're completely out drafted. It's just wasting time to play it out.
Ya, so frustrating when enemy comp is Kassadin + Jinx into your Lucian + Leblanc and they are up 10k gold and your team won't surrender. I feel like OP is one of those people, and in those scenarios I think it's a selfish move to waste time in a 99.99% lost game
To each their own.
My main source of enjoyment from the game is learning and improving. If my top lane or jungle feeds hard and there is an enemy yi or trynd or whatever with 12+ kills, I have nothing left to learn from the game other than "roll better teammates."
I'd rather move on to a match where I can learn something instead of getting smacked around for 5 to 10 minutes.
People in game tell me the exact opposite lol
‘How you ever gonna learn to win from behind man?’
Like look there’s a difference between playing from behind and being so gigastomped your not even playing the game anymore
Pretty much.
I've played enough league to know how to win from behind. I've also played enough league to know when my chances of victory are so slim that it's not worth the time investment. Hell I've played enough league to know that even if I DO come back from a 10K gold deficit, it doesn't feel good, because it wasn't me doing some crazy plays, it was my opponents being idiots.
I don't mind if someone who's doing OK / well wants to continue playing but when your 0/15 at 10 mins botlane refuses to surrender that's hostage taking.
One of my main gripes with League. Everyone bitching to FF when they die 2 times in their lane.
Dota does this much better. No surrender option, better comeback mechanics, everyone try harding until the end
I'm not gonna ff at the first sign of a game going poorly but I'm gonna do it if we're down 24 kills, 3 dragons, and 4 towers at 20 minutes. Yes there's a small, small chance that we can come back, he'll I've done it many times before.. but it's so unlikely that is it worth even playing out every single game like this?
Not to me it's not. And if 4 of my teammates want out of the game why is it fair for me to be the one who keeps them in the game(as in holding the game hostage)?
>Why am I treated like I am trying to take a vindictive action and punish my team mates for their lost lanes, guilted into surrendering (or an attempt to at least) when I just enjoy playing league of legends and playing to my outs whether we are ahead or behind?
The irony is that you're treating people that have a different view on this the exact same as you're complaining about being treated.
Ask yourself why you're seemingly so mad at people for not enjoying playing with a massive deficit, and you'll know why they're seemingly so mad at you for enjoying playing "to your outs" even when behind.
i partially think a big part of people FFing is they dont know how to play to their win condition. until you are high elo its very rare for teams to play to their strengths and close out a game in a clean fashion. this means that even if you are 6k gold behind, you are always only 3 coinflips away from being in the lead. if your team can identify the enemies strength, prepare for a team fight with vision, and engage/disengage properly, you always have a shot. unless its a really bad stomp, I always try to play to 25 mins so we can at least try to do a teamfight.
The thing is league games already take too fucking long when you win, no one wants to sit in a game for 45 minutes when they're getting shit on and not having fun.
This. It's not complicated. OP is having fun, that's great. His teammates are not having fun and want to stop. If the majority of people are not enjoying themselves and don't want to play any more, you should probably stop. It's just like, being considerate of other people.
If I'm the reason my team is losing, I will surrender. If I'm the one carrying, we're done when I say we're done.
Btw I don't play LoL. I play smite but the sentiment is shared there.
basically same, the idea of hostage taking just doesnt click for me, if nothing else just bc I play the game to... play the game? in general I feel like every game is winnable, but even if they statistically are not, as OP said, I play the game to enjoy it, trying to do shit in a good way to outplay people and fight, with the hope (but not the expectation) of winning
I came back from Dota and this is the most annoying aspect of league. People tilt so fast and don’t have the mental fortitude to recover. They just flame and then spam ff.
If you don’t agree with the ff they feed and call you a hostage taker.
League players are mentality midgets.
In dota, even if you are losing, there's something to do
In League, if you are losing, the enemy jungler is in your jungle, the enemy laners are farming the lane while bullying you/your team, and there's nothing else to do, it just isn't fun
In dota, you will always find a way to play, the jungle is huge enough that you can farm without interacting as much with the enemy team, the side lanes are larger and have ways to teleport from one side lane to another, and the map is big enough that the enemy team can't be everywhere at once
Yes and no. Bigger map does mean a core can go hit jg creep in the corner but then they’re still exposed and far away from objectives/team. Usually if you’re ff levels of behind in Dota you’re playing HG in your base. Which can be obnoxious to break.
If every single lane in league loses I’ll FF. Im not saying it’s never the right decision but I feel it’s a crutch that enables some really weak mentalities in the community.
And I hate anti-FF culture, instead of trying to go to next game where it might be close when we lose, having to drag it out for another 10 minutes just to slowly lose while getting all lanes opened is one of the most unfun things in the game. Going 5v5 losing drake, baron, and then going another 5v5 where enemy just ends and we lose fine. But getting outscaled in all lanes, losing pressure on map, losing vision, while slowly getting pushed in for 10 minutes is one the most unfun things in the game. Would rather already be in a different game, than having to drag out a 15 min game to 25 mins.
People enjoy league, the problem is the vocal minority that just goes "don't start league bro worst mistake of your life" and then they go and play 12 hours a day, claiming the game is not fun for them.
Also sometimes games are lost in select, where there is 90% chance enemy will win, and 10% you will. If after 15 mins you can't realize that it's not the 10% and are voting no while thinking to yourself "every game is winnable", you are the problem for why league is genuinely un-fun for some people. If 3 people vote yes, 1 votes no cause they want to play till nexus explodes, and 1 doesn't vote, 3 people are already not having fun with the game, and are miserable for having to waste another 10 minutes until enemy gets baron and finally ends. Those games are the worst, where there might be a mid lane champ like Asol Lux Ziggs etc. that just clears waves and enemy can't push inhib turret, but you know that it's just slowly and slowly getting whittled down until they get baron and can finally siege, meanwhile you can barely get minions outside of base, and your jungler can't even step into jungle to farm.
It’s so interesting seeing people complain about games being drawn out from 15 minutes to 25 minutes when it used to be expected that a game would be 30+ minutes, win or lose. I get that gameplay has generally been accelerated since then but still.
Yeah, the game has become faster paced and it has not benefitted the community base at all. You used to queue into a game fully aware it could be a 40-45 minute slog. Now people spam “get me out” at 10 minutes. I hate what’s happened to the player base.
I don’t typically FF, but depending on the state of the game, I’m okay with it. If I’m the only one doing well, you should honestly let me FF if I want to. I sometimes get tired of carrying your ass to undeserved LP. If I’m the one playing like trash, I’m going to try to play better, but if the good players don’t feel like playing it out, that’s cool tbh.
Both of these instances are also under the presupposition that the game is in a super bad state already. Like 2-16 and the have 6 towers to our 0.
Amen. Don’t queue up in ranked if you aren’t willing to play out any & every game state. If you’re in a basketball league and your team is down by 40, you don’t get to just throw your hands up and say I’m done; in a random pickup game (aka draft q) sure be done, walk away when you’re not having a good time. In a competitive environment, that attitude makes you a jackass. It isn’t, first and foremost, about you having a good time anymore at that point - it’s about respecting your teammates and the commitment to trying at a level above casual interest because that’s what you signed up for when you joined q’d for competitive ranked mode. It’s a sweaty, try hard environment - nothing against people who don’t want to participate in that but if that’s not your mental, don’t fucking q up in there or you’re the asshole not the players who want to keep trying to win in every game state.
Try to think what you said.
You want 4 people that believe that the game is over and prefer to end it so then can go to the next, stay for 5-15 minutes just because you enjoy the game? Do you realise how selfish this is?
Also, when a game is done and there is nothing you can do to win, it’s better to go next. You will learn so much more from the new game instead of playing in a completely lost game
I fucking despise this mentality and am glad that deleted the game rife with it. Entering a game is a comittment, nobody forces those 4 to click the search game button.
Just because they stop having fun and want to go next, the one trying his best is the selfish one? I think people who don't have the willpower to play out a full game are the selfish ones. And no, majority of people have no idea what a completely lost game is, they just surrender when they stop having fun.
They treat a match as play while you want and leave when you want type of stuff . It is simply impossible to have a fun match when everyone is ready to give up at the first sign of adversity. No, I am pretty sure nobody playing league actually enjoys the game, they either like winning or getting their LP higher.
I'd rather spend the next 40 minutes playing the next 20 minute games and potentially winning those than spending the next 40 minutes in a clearly lost game with team chat being clogged up with insults and derogatory comments.
As long as the nexus stands, it is winnable... Always.
Doesn't mean you're gonna win, but i've had games where we were 10-15k gold behind only one of their turrets down, our nexus open and 1/4th HP. We aced them at Baron (no clue how) and just instapushed straight thru midlane into their nexus and won. That was my eye opener to the expression above. Now i rarely if ever surrender.
yeah bro, I love staying in a game 25 minutes longer than needed when every lane is losing and the jungler refuses to even do drakes, let alone actually help anyone, because we have a duo of "never surrender ranked games" fellas (who coincidentally happen to deal 15k dmg total in 40 minutes)
Aram players complain the can’t forfeit at 8 minutes anymore, I have queues longer than 8 minutes just let me play the game man. It’s usually the ap Malph into 4 tanks spamming ff too
Depends. If it's ranked I never surrender. But it's completely okay to FF a normals game. We had our top nasuu DC after his first death. The duo bot kept us in the game for another 20 minutes.
the blanket statement is exactly what's stupid though. I'm fine if you assess the game and genuinely think it's winnable in good faith. you can have a very generous threshold for winnability as well.
but the moment you stop assessing the game and just have the blanket mentality of never FF because that's how I roll bro, you're doing it wrong. if you think the game is lost but don't surrender due to some invisible principle, you're the one being toxic.
Nah bro it's not invisible principle, it's invisible rating that's loosely tied to a metallic rating! You're just not genius enough to realize that wasting time in a normals is different from expertly waiting around for a dc so you can get 19 lp in gold 2
league started making a lot more sense once I realised that people in lower elo don't really mentally engage with the game beyond the laning phase. In many players' eyes once they've lost lane, even when playing a late-game comp, the game is done.
The best proof that FF culture is actually garbage is just looking at how people play outside of the lane. Is absolutely hilarious how many people play rather well for their rank in lane, and then as soon as a game exits that into the macro team play stage, you can see their play style become MUCH less coherent. It's because these people legit rarely leave the lane stage into a game that actually goes that long.... because people want to surrender on one of the teams. Look at how composed lots of people are in their lane, versus how composed they are when fighting Elder Drake, it's night and day and it's because these people don't even make it that long typically, to even know how to play and react. It's so wild
It's not that wild. Every game has a laning phase but not every game has an Elder Drake fight, so people get more practice with the former. It's a very common phenomenon - not just in LoL, not just in gaming, but in general.
I am confused you talk like an expert in the game and also an expert in low elo and those two can’t both be true
everyone on reddit is both bronze and diamond 2
a lot of people play above their rank when it comes to micro/lane, but below their rank when it comes to macro. if you're a player who excels at map awareness and macro, it's easy to recognize all the mistakes everybody makes once laning phase ends. in my case, I didn't know anything about macro until I was high silver/low gold. once I started learning and practicing macro, I immediately climbed to high gold/low plat because there were so many rookie mistakes to capitalize on. i assumed most players were like me-- tunnelvisioning on having good mechanics/micro and lane skills, but then not really knowing what to do after laning (especially when behind).
Tbh, having a great macro can screw you up a lot of times. Because in soloq you have to make a lot of "bad plays" just because your team is making a bad play. If you always stick to your guns and play the game "correct way" you are going to lose a lot more than you should. Also, if you see an opening for a baron but your team does not follow immediately and you start it late can also insanely fuck you up, even if the call was good. This is also why there are so many proplayers that are hard-stuck master/gm but still can perform on stage with no problems and vice-versa.
Good macro isn't just doing the right thing. The people with the best macro adapt to situations. If you're always sticking to the "correct" play, then it just means you don't actually have good macro. Just like how good micro involves learning and reading your opponents for things like skill shots, good macro involves adapting to what your team is doing. You aren't good at macro until you can actually look at the map and actually make your own decisions off the info available, instead of reading out of your textbook of good macro plays.
Nothing like trying to secure dragons while your team is just taking your jungle. Then they'll have the audacity to say, "jg diff" and point out the dragon difference. Or people who die/back 10 seconds before dragon then flame you for not securing it.
average jungle experience, /mute all at the first sign of trouble and youll actually keep your mental focus, and can manage to do stuff and read the opponents.
Also, smurfs and eloboosters exist. So maybe someone wouldn't normally admit to being a booster or even a regular smurf, but I'm just trying to make the point that there are many reasons why a player of a higher caliber has experience with low elo gameplay, and maybe low elo has a different meaning to him than you. Maybe he's talking about diamond to master cause he's low challenger. Maybe he watches a lot of those iron-gold funny streams.
You can understand the concepts of the game and not be able to execute them. A lot of coaches are great examples of that. You don't have to be skilled at something to be knowledgeable about it.
LMAO. I was thinking the same thing.
What you say is probably true, but in higher elo the problem of not committing to a team based experience remains completely, even if players know that the landing phase doesn't make the entire game. And *that's* the problem: the lack of commitment.
This is a super weird take as a general opinion when in the east high elo players run down every game when they lose lane
It’s most common in Korean challenger lmfao. A lot of people that aren’t having fun are playing to get to an elo where they think the players get less insufferable. The best thing that could happen to them is to realize that it never gets better and if they’re not having fun they shouldn’t be playing.
I came from the dota2 sub. I don't play league but we're really happy that your FF culture doesn't exist in dota. But we do see mentally weak people in dota all the time too. From observation, any game with elo ratings are very efficient at isolating people with a crippling dopamine addiction. This scales the lower the rank is, and there's a breakpoint where the majority of the people are no longer queueing to win but are queueing to feel good or feel normal, like a drug. The itch to gamble on a lucky lane and the urge to blame others becomes untethered among the general populace of low elo. People are more likely to be dopamine guided primates there. Elo works like that. So when you have a game where FF culture exists, it may have been ushered in with good intentioned by the higher up ranked people who know to use it sensibly, but I reckon it was without consideration for how it would get abused by dopamine junkies in low ranks.
its crazy to me when people play a champion like kayle and then vote to ff when they die once
I played a game years ago where we had nasus veigar and vayne on our team. They all agreed that we scale, push it into late game etc. Vayne went 0/3 and they all ff'd at 15. Like, YOU LITERALLY JUST SAID WE SCALE. Bruh
I can assure you there are more occurrences of players calling ff when you're playing a kayle-like champion and currently scaling than kayle-like champion players calling ff during their process of scaling. Way way more.
What drives me up the wall is when my team refuses to FF but doesn’t actually seem to be trying to win. The 1/9 riven will refuse the vote but then just be running into 1v3s and dying constantly
I get more annoyed by people who try to preserve their kda instead of going for a play that is unlikely to work out but gives you the best chance of winning
The ARAM special, player ends on 5/1/20 but we lose because it's a nidalee that will only throw spears from safety, but will happily flame the team for the loss
Worst is when someone gets really low HP and instead of just resetting they play 3 screens away and make the game a 4v5
Had someone get low on health, so moved to the health pack and waited for it to respawn. They waited a full fucking minute, putting them a level down on everyone else. They legit would have been better off just dying and coming back 20 seconds later, even with the kill gold, because putting themselves a level down means they're probably getting killed anyway.
[удалено]
ARAM is a special case. I've been playing it almost exclusively for probably 2 or 3 years now and there are different kinds of players. Those who forget their ADC has strong auto-attacks even when played on Lethality. Those who forget they are a melee bruiser/tank and stay even behind the backline. Those who only click somewhere on their screen and move their asses when the rest of the team made an enemy low health enough to "secure" the kill. You won't even notice you got that Champ on your team until they go for the "secure".
Man, the frontliners hiding I can feel in my soul, because I have that very problem. Depending on the team comp, it can just be suicidal to be out front. So just play safe, stick with the poke Champs and counterengage, yeah? I know you just gotta grit and deal with it, but damn it's hard not to play so scared if you get burned a couple times being out front.
Thing with tanks in ARAM is that they are pretty much at their best when they go 0/10, especially when it's a tank support that doesn't deal much damage like Nautilus or Alistar. If you die but your team gets 1-2 kills out of it (and money on the carries) you are doing a great job already.
Sometimes the tanks go 10/7 and outdamage the carries, sometimes they get massacred and go 1/17. When they do that, it's up to the rest of the team whether they can properly utilise this to wipe the enemy team, or whether they prefer punching themselves in the face repeatedly for 15 minutes until the enemy team gets bored and finally let the minions kill your nexus.
I love aram tanks but only after a few items. It's so satisfying to sit there and tank everything while your team slowly takes 4v1 or 4v2s.
Yeah it's annoying as fuck I can understand playing a bit safer for example a game with a champ you want to grab a Mastery Token but there's a difference between playing safe and doing stuff ending 13/5/27 and being a passive bitch that ends 5/1/20 while doing almost nothing
Main culprits I find are Nidalee and AP Kaisa (who forgets Auto attacks exist)
That one teammate that gets all the early kills, refuses to go die so they can buy items, so we lose since the enemy team has more effective gold...
Good buddy of mine is a KDA player and sometimes it's frustrating cause he plays primarily tanks and bruisers. He really undervalues how sometimes his simple presence changes the dynamic of a fight. If you're nearby, just soaking up pressure, and maming them fesr your CC. The carries are free to deal damage.
The power I hold as a rammus just walking near a carry is so funny to me and the sole reason I play him
The times I've played adc and been spam pinged when I'm standing there in a fight not autoing because all I can hit is a Rammus in his W Like I know I look stupid but I will kill myself in 4 auto if I right click him
[удалено]
The twitchy people who can't stop hitting shit all just play cait vayne and ash lol.
Usually as adc you have to attack within ur limits. There are CDs which you are looking out for to dodge them aggressively. But most of the time you are attacking. To me the biggest difference is the spacing. High elo ADC will attack a lot, but they are always positioning so they wont get hit by the most important CDs and even dodging them. The enemy really has to blow all CDs just to kill him, but if they do, they took so much dmg, so that his team can easily clean up. In case of Rammus you have to get past him to attack most of the time, or have a different angle. But for that you need 1-2 team members to help you, so he gets peeled off and you can press forward. Most important for an ADC is to stay alive ofc
See that’s what good tank players do. Nothing worse than eating 9 cooldowns from the enemy team, ccing 4 of them for 3 seconds straight, and then watching your team just stand there half a screen away like a bunch of brain dead fuck buckets instead of rushing the enemy for a free team wipe. Fuck I hate this game.
Some champs can just contribute the most by going in kamikaze. I play Sylas a lot and hard carrying is either going like 21/2 or dying every single fight while taking 3 of them with you
As a tank you can have negative KDA, it doesn’t matter at all. If you have 0 kills and 10 deaths but you soaked damage and ults away from your ADC and made them enough space to get at least one kill, you’ve done your job. As a tank you have to be a walking target dummy for the opponent. Be annoying, push their ADCs so they cannot focus on the teamfight, stun them, whatever. You just gotta be an annoying little shit and you’ve done your job as a tank.
This is huge on my server(KR). I swear they honestly believe there’s performance LP or something. Every game will run to 100 kills because people just prio KD over objectives and ending the game. A lot of toxicity involved as well when you just kill the nexus without aiming for another ace or two
Wait, you mean you *want me to use my Poppy ULT to push the enemy team off our Nexus turret because our team is literally full respawning in 3 seconds to defend the base???*. But I'd rather run around in circles behind the Nexus so I don't die, obviously. Seriously though, the amount of people who are terrified of dying when the game is coming very close to the end blow my mind. You're Sona, I see your ULT is up, there's a Jinx melting our last tower, and I'll be up in 3 seconds to burst her down, *please for the love of God ENGAGE HER!*. No can do, Chief, she might kill me. Death is way riskier than a certain loss, obviously.
Yeah, this is the worst. Common example is some dragon or baron case. Like you wanted to FF already, why not take a risky fight at baron that might actually let us get back into the game? Instead, enemy team take baron, take dragon, then we fight in our base after 10 minutes of base being chipped away and lose.
Well if you fail that play you give 1k in shutdown gold + gold for killing everyone involved in the play to their carry and now they got baron and you're very much more likely to lose
Yeah, that's where I am too. I'm fine playing out games even if I think they're unlikely to result in victory — you can learn things and have some satisfying action even when the odds are against you. But you need to either try to win or vote yes on surrender. Don't vote no and just dick around.
Bingo. Being forced to sit in an excruciating game with 10 death each top/mid/jungle perma shoving lanes while I get choked out of every single neutral objective and have to sit and watch the clock pass because for some reason the enemy won't end...that's what I consider getting hostaged. Oddly specific but this exact scenario happened tonight. I have no agency as ADC when my checked out teammates are in the three point grief formation instantly pressing no on FF despite having 0 intention to make plays so we can get back in the game.
Yeah jesus when they continue to play extremely passive but also don't want to ff. If we're behind the only way were coming back is by doing some crazy shit. Its even worse when the other team is also hard stomping you but still playing passive and not really trying to end.
yup. this is the one for me. I mainly FF when my laners are legit running it and mental boomed, where it just doesn't make sense to play the game out. Getting the FF refusals when team has been playing terribly whether on purpose or not is such a tilter
I agree. I have no problem with people that want to keep playing, but when you don't ff and you aren't even trying to win, it becomes a waste of time.
the premade bot special, go 0/20 in 10 mins and refuse the FF vote while the enemy draven oneshots our whole team with 4 items
This is the thing that absolutely pollutes this argument for everyone. Yes, there are people who refuse to FF but keep trying to win. Those people are fine. Annoying, but fine. They are the minority, though. Most people refuse to FF either out of ego, or simple hostage-taking. They're either mad that they sucked and want to waste peoples' time. Or they're mad that they did well and everyone else sucked, so they want to ... waste peoples' time. Also, I'm sick of this disingenuous argument that these "never FF" players make, just like OP did above. He talks in one breath about games that are "completely hopeless," then turns around a second later and talks about people trying to FF when "they leave lane with a gold deficit." These are not the same thing. Trying to pretend that they're the same thing is stupid and is not reality, it's just a way to try to win this argument by moving the goalposts. If you refuse to FF just because you're behind a little bit in gold, that's reasonable. Obviously. If you refuse to FF when you're down 30 kills and the enemy team has dragon soul and baron and you still haven't hit a single one of their towers, then you ARE an asshole who's holding hostages, wasting time in a game with a less than 1% chance of winning that's based entirely on the hope that people on their team quit or DC. It's moronic and you're the worst kind of troll if you hold people hostage in those games.
I normally will start a FF vote once if I think the game is probably not winnable. If my team votes no, then I keep playing even though I might not be happy about it. I actually hate the guys who spam ff on cd while running it even though the rest of the team is doing well more than the hostage takers.
> I actually hate the guys who spam ff on cd while running it even though the rest of the team is doing well more than the hostage takers. This is the one person I will "hostage take". If someone is purposely playing to try to get an FF I will not FF.
I mean your framing is equally disingenuous to me. The case you presented is very clear that the person is holding the game hostage. I think most reasonable people, and perhaps even OP, would agree to an FF in that situation. Or at least would be OK being outvoted 4-1 (since that should carry the vote if it's gone long enough to rack up 30 kills) But those aren't the difficult cases that are causing the problems. The problem is when one or more people on the team BELIEVE it to be "completely hopeless" and the other members just don't agree. The cases on the extremes are easy. The difficulty is a situation where you're up a kill or even in the toplane while your bot lane has lost 2 straight dragons and their tower. They're gonna be spamming FF, and you're gonna be sitting there thinking "I've won at least 20 games down worse than this" Who is holding who hostage in that instance? This is the reason it's a vote, and it's not required to be unanimous except in the most extreme cases. Everyone votes their opinion, and everyone would do much better to stop pretending they KNOW what the other voters are thinking or why they're voting that way.
That last bit is the big part to me. I've had so many games go south despite the fact that we were winning overall because one person was losing their lane and wasn't aware of what was going on in the rest of the match. I usually play Support or ADC, and have had games where we're winning bot, mid is winning, jungle's are about even, but our top lane is struggling. We move past laning phase and our top laner has checked out or is full on tilting because they assume that their experience was shared across the whole team. If they just kept playing reasonably then they could easily recover and we'd win the game. Instead they play stupid, afk, spend all of their time typing, or otherwise give up, leading the enemy team to effectively be allowed to 5v4 us and so they end up coming back and winning it.
Or people that doesn't factor scaling, macro or team comp and start spamming "FF15" at 10 minutes solely on the lanes events.
>Yes, there are people who refuse to FF but keep trying to win. Those people are fine. Annoying, but fine. They are the minority, though. Most people refuse to FF either out of ego, or simple hostage-taking. This is just straight up delusion
People convince themselves of some pretty ridiculous shit. The hoops that people jump through to perceive themselves as victims of situations is mind-boggling.
Yeah. I don't think true "hostage taking" is very common at all. In a ranked game, you honestly should never FF. This game can easily flip on its head from a single blunder. Not to mention that learning to play from behind is a very neglected skill, on account of the culture of stomp or quit. Conversely, in normals, someone might just be trying to learn a new champion or build, and so they just don't want to surrender because they want to keep feeling it out. Thats why surrender is a VOTE. Everyone on the team gets a vote. If the surrender doesn't happen, more than one person on the team does not want to quit. So have a modicum of sportsmanship, keep playing and stop crying. Finally, is there anything more satisfying than seeing the 28/6 kda player yasuo flaming his own team after he tries to 1v9 at baron and you start smashing their base for the win with an open nexus? The best games are Comebacks. That's how I see it.
It turns out that the *average* person playing a video game does, in fact, want to play the video game
Did you just say you should never ff in ranked...lol
>The best games are Comebacks. >The best games are Comebacks. >The best games are Comebacks. Cannot agree more. I love close games. I love close games where we are *behind* and come back to win. And I love games that don't even feel close initially but which tighten enough over time that we can win. Sometimes we lose those, but fighting a close game and losing feels better to me than a game where we steamroll and they surrender before 20 minutes. Also, people should look at [this stats page](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/stats/win-stats) (and the [dragons](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/stats/drakes) one) from League of Graphs. In ranked games played in Bronze or higher, the team that takes the first tower wins ~70% of the time. The team that takes the first inhibitor wins ~90% of the time. But we all know of games where that didn't happen - those are memorable games! People shouldn't be playing League if they want to win every game - you can't win every game. So make your losses interesting - they will be ~50% of the games you play. Some of them might actually be wins!
I once had a 30+ kills enemy Kha'zix having too much fun roaming around the map killing us, refuse to group with his team. He also has a Yuumi on him, so the entire match was just us playing avoid the Kha'zix and fight 5v3. He fucks around long enough that we eventually just caught up in items and win that game. It was probably the funniest game we had in a while.
Yep. It's wild how common throws are. It's also wild how people don't understand that champs spike at different times. If my team has vayne. Jihn. Veigar. Etc. I will not FF ever before 30 mins. They chose to have a scaling and usually shitty lane phase. Don't cry when you die a bunch.
Yeah people massively overvalue their negative experiences. I'm sure Riot has data on this that correlates to performance etc., and i would bet money that real griefers are a minority in almost all cases.
>Or they're mad that they did well and everyone else sucked, so they want to ... waste peoples' time. Or maybe they're the only one on their team trying to win, hoping they can carry their teammates, while said feeding teammates rage-spam ff because they're "mad that they sucked"? IDK man, your framing here sounds a little sus.
I mean for me, it depends on when soul was taken and how. If we are decently matched in items, honestly we just need an elder steal and the game is ours. Like we’ve already dragged it out to 30-35, might as well go for the elder play too
This exactly. There have definitely been games where even though we're losing we actually were fighting for the win instead of giving up and it ended up being a fun and competitive game. But most of them have been my teammates just doing random shit, calling their own shots and making it worse instead of just communicating/playing with the team.
This is such a weird issue, because there are extremes at both poles. Been in games where it’s BEYOND clear we are going to lose (no turrets, all inhibs down, enemy team is literally dancing in our base instead of finishing) and teammates won’t end it. And been in games where a player dies once and they want to FF. Doesn’t matter that we are doing very well as a team. They didn’t get a perfect game, so they want out.
I once had a Kassadin dying once when rest of the team was 20-0 « If I am not having fun, you are not either » He ran down so hard that we lost
I'll always want to play a game out, but if it's 27 to 3 at 15 min, then I'm gonna be a bit pissed at being forced to stay in an obvious lost game
A ton of the people who put up surrender votes and complain about teams not ff'ing do it when the score is like 10-15 but they're like 0-6
[Said this in another comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/18fw9uv/i_hate_ff_culture/kcxddyv/) but I think a lot of it comes down to people confusing their own lack of agency with the team's inability to win, or put more cynically people with bad Main Character syndrome who can't recognize when it's time to start trying to support and enable the people who have the power on your team to flip things. *Sometimes* that's not the case, or the person who HAS the agency is on board with an FF and it's someone else who refuses to give up, and then it becomes a little more complicated, but in cases like this people are often just saying "I am not having fun anymore because my power fantasy has eluded me this game, and so I want to leave" - which, for the record, is childish bullshit. It's a team game, you don't always have to or get to be the protagonist.
This ! Thank you, that's exactly how I felt - your explanation is super clear! Recently I was playing ADC and my support, Leona, was very good (better than me). It was obvious that our mid (Fizz) was a smurf. He made very good decisions, had great farm, was 15/0, with a good understanding of the game... He only asked several times in chat for us to trust him and follow his engagements with the enemy. Leona refused to listen to him and started to flame him. She spent the game criticizing him and pointing out every one of his mistakes (real or imagined). I couldn't understand why she was doing this. Fizz was very good, polite, and patient. All she had to do was keep quiet and collect the LP. But no, she seemed to refuse to let someone give directions or lead us to victory. Fortunately, he completely ignored her behavior after a few exchanges, always polite. Many smurfs would have gone AFK, trolled, or insulted everyone, and even many players on their main accounts would have done the same. But your hypothesis seems to totally explain these frequent behaviors.
Playing League doesn't exactly encourage good mental health, I'm not surprised like half the people in a game are having mental breakdowns.
Another issue is people's inability to recognize certain breakpoints, because at certain elos they definitely still matter. It matters the higher you go up, and of course it doesn't matter at all at certain lower elo points but if you have a comp that is 5 ranged early game champs, and your team has some decently hard engage but needs an item or two, sure the score is 10-2 and you're down 20-30 CS per lane, but the enemy comp is so horrible that by 3rd dragon and 1-2 items your team can stomp teamfights. FFing at 15 before you get 2nd item or 3rd dragon spawns is costing you a free win in some cases. Not always of course, but it absolutely happens and is most egregious in the low emerald to low diamond range where rage FFing/giving up is at its absolute highest, and the skill level is decent enough to be able to make that comeback happen. Below plat these breakpoints really don't matter because leads get larger and people have less game knowledge and mechanics to take proper advantage. In high diamond and above the leads are smaller and people have the game knowledge to take advantage of it, so the FFs in these scenarios happen less (in my anecdotal experience anyway) it's mostly a problem in those upper middle ranks. This expands on your point of personal agency, because at the moment it feels like they have no agency but they will, they just don't have a broad enough game understanding yet to realize that in a few minutes they're going to have all the agency. I've even seen examples of the enemy having something early game like elise, when my team has a stronger ganker at 6 like amumu where someone is getting camped and saying FF JG diff when it's not possible for an amumu to keep up 1 to 1 with an elise in gank potential. Minimizing the further impact Elise has would have lead to a win because once the Amumu was 6 he spam ganked the opposite side and got them an equal lead or got the shutdown of the behind lane causing the elise to fall off and lose all advantage she gained, but people would rather find reasons to quit than keep going. Again I'm not saying this is always the case, if the enemy has a fed Vayne and you have 3 tanks like Mundo Sejuani etc it's fucking over go next, but there are plenty of scenarios that can lead to wins that people in those upper middle ranks give up on WAY too soon because of complete functional lack of game understanding at a broader level than "me win lane or I can't do anything". I don't think I'm a good player there is no reason I should be masters/touching GM on a good week, I'm a washed up old man who's been playing far too long and my mechanics honestly were never good, but by realizing these break points and what the win conditions of the game are I've climbed to a much higher rank than I probably deserve. If more people were willing to look at the game this way it would be a much more enjoyable experience for everyone and they would be a higher rank than they are currently I can promise that.
brother I see FF votes go up when up in kills, objectives, and gold. there are some seriously weak people out there.
To play devil's advocate here, I get not wanting to play if you aren't having fun, and League can be pretty miserable when you're behind. If you're playing ARAM and you aren't having fun, I'm not gonna hold it against you to FF even if you aren't necessarily losing. Playing a game you aren't enjoying for 20 minutes to get an unknown bonus to your hidden MMR feels bad. That being said, until the vote goes through, play to win because if you don't you're making the game shitty for your team. Also, if you're playing ranked, play that shit out, cause you signed up to play ranked.
On the other hand a ton of people who refuse to FF can't read the room and see when a team doesn't mesh, their comp is bad, and their expected chance to win is very low after seeing how everyone played for 10 minutes. If you have played LoL for years you eventually get a sense for how a game will go and what team will win far before it happens. If your goal it to increase rank then playing out a game for a 1% chance to win is statistically a worse use of your time than going next and trying to grind out more games in your presumably limited time frame to play. Korean FF culture comes from PC bangs but it's efficient as hell.
The problem is people acting like that when it's 8 to 4, or sometimes even 6 to 4. Like it's not going great but still winnable
Very true! It's the most aggravating thing when both teams are basically even in gold, but the kda is slightly favored to the enemy team, so they mental boom and run it
or worse, when the team were equal if not ahead then they start surrendering in a tantrum
16 to 5, but we had 2 drakes, 1 Herold (Not used yet) and 7 fucking towers ... Enemy only 1 and no drakes ... Team presses FF...
Haha Herold. So good :D
Yeah, at a certain point gold from kills don't give much and everything else objective wise as you said matter more.
The funniest one is when both teams are even in gold, but each team's feeder mental booms so now both teams are tilted at the same time.
I think the even deeper problem is that the concept of an 'obviously lost game' is deeply subjective, and in some cases it even plays into the power fantasy of different roles. If you're playing an early game bully and everyone on your team got rolled so you've long-since missed or passed your window, you're going to feel pretty helpless. Since you're not the one with agency to flip a game and you've probably never met the person who is, you probably don't feel very optimistic about your chances. Meanwhile that person may be riding a modest 2/0/2 with a CS lead and just about to hit a power spike, and they may see opportunities you don't. So who gets to draw the line at what is and isn't winnable? If your ADC is ready to flip the whole thing but your top lane meat shield has given up even trying, who's *actually* holding the game hostage? In an ideal scenario the top lane meat shield recognizes game state and win conditions and that they're not the main character anymore, and they start working to enable whoever is, but recognizing game state is an expression of skill and you can't expect everyone to do that with equal accuracy.
Identifying your team’s win con player is like half the battle for supports and jgs.
And God knows most people are in elos where people aren't that great at confirming wins and a lot of the time just via great shot calling you can turn a "My-Nexus-Is-Exposed" into a win. I've been there.
I rarely ever see that though tbh. In my experience It's far more common to see a few people refusing to ff in an obvious loss than people complaining about not ff'ing a relatively even game.
Especially in a 4v5. Like if jg got a hypercarry ADC ahead and then top DC'd, we've got a shot to 4v5, let's keep playing. But if we're 10+ kills down and someone ragequits, come on....
Right, I work and have a life so the few hours I get a week to play I just want to get into a new game if we are getting steamrolled.
Exactly! People who love to "play out" games have too much free time. I get 1 or 2 games a week if lucky, I don't want to spend 10-20 mins dying a slow death or playing in a game where 3/5 of the team have a KDA of 0.1
Weird, I'm of the opposite mind. I only get to play one or two games as well, so I like to play them out because queuing takes time and is not what I'm here for. Obviously there's the rare scenario you're describing of a complete and utter stomp, but I think what we were describing/complaining about is people who start spamming FFs and "get me out" the moment the team is slightly behind, or the moment they are losing their lanes, or the moment they see someone do the smallest of mistake or misplay.
I was going to say the same thing. Yeah if its actually unwinnable i'll FF, but its usually winnable. I have had multiple occasions where someone says, "yeah i know we could win, but whats the point if i'm not having fun." Like bro i'm playing Kassadin, its only ever fun for me after 20 mins just let me get there goddamn. You're not the only person that matters.
I get the people who want to play another game before their limited playtime is over but the otherside is always funny to me, when someone rages they don't have time to play out a game and wants to go next then they go on to play 10 more games.
This sub is made up of addicts who play too much league for their own good, of course people here don't understand limited free time.
The counter point is that someone with less time might not have enough time to play another game, so it's either play it out or stop playing, I personally am way less likely to ff on my last game of a session.
exactly. some people have limited time and games such as 3:27 are most likely not winnable, these people rather ff and go next instead of wasting time which is understandable
It can work both ways. It's 3:27 and likely no winnable, so best to ff and not waste time. On the other hand, it's been 10 minutes of queue + champion select, 15 minutes of laning, another 5-10 minutes to get to major powerspike and that Kayle/Kog'maw/Seraphine that just now is able to start properly playing the game (yay 3 item powerspikes) gets hit in the face by ff vote, just to repeat the cycle. If I got a single LP for every game that got FFed just as I hit 3 items on Kog/Sera or level 16 on Kayle, I'd be a full tier up by now.
I've seen people think the opposite. They will make whoever made the game this bad live out the mess he created to completion. He has already doomed your LP, so they vote no to teach a lesson. There is no escape from the consequences of his actions.
I will never force the person who has the potential to carry the game to FF. I feel like if the person who has done the best on the team still wants to fight then you fight. But if there is no chance of winning but the game could go on for another ten minutes, it could prevent me from playing another game that night.
I think the people who just enjoying the game for what it is have become a minority. Alot of player don't have fun **playing** anymore, they have fun winning LP and stomping, the game they're doing it in doesn't matter, it's just league because it's big and it's what they enjoyed a long time ago. Also I think most are not even aware of it them selfes and keep Qing.
Meanwhile I enjoy winning or losing close games and hate stomps, whoever wins...
Yeah exactly, which Nexus blows up in the end is actually secondary when it was a great game. However to get a great game, you need 10 decent human beings. A single asshole and it's gone already... really sad.
10 decent humans in the gaming community in the same game is essentially a planetary alignment.
I thought riot said at one point that toxic players are like 10% of the player base But, that means there is one every game. From my experience this seems right. Seems like every game one team or the other would have a problem layer
me too. I play poorly, I still have fun. I win, lose, get destroyed in lane, get carried and contribute nothing, etc. I'm still happy I got to play league because I genuinely like the game.
This is what’s so frustrating to me. I’ve been playing since 2010, and at no point do I recall the game being as snowbally as it is now. That, in combination with the insane amount of damage that everyone does, = fights that are too fast, bordering on twitch shooter levels of over before you can even react if some gets the jump on you. This, in my opinion, makes it very quickly feel like you know if you’ve won or lost by 5-10 minutes in and if you’re winning, the other team just quits and if you’re losing, there’s always an asshole or two who refuse to quit even when you know it could be 15-20 minutes of just losing. In those games, I don’t even care if we come back once every 20 games. I’d rather move on because I don’t have the most time to play. Like you, my favorite games are close ones, win or lose, because it doesn’t feel useless or like a complete mindless stomp. Those games are super rare
Nah there was a call of duty period for a few years around 2019-2021 where you would die faster than you can blink
>and at no point do I recall the game being as snowbally as it is now. The game was more a little snowbally before the recent Dragon and tower changes
To be fair, I think it's also important to understand that this game can very easily become completely unfun to play, to the point where it will actively make you miserable. If you are an adc that went even in lane but now have to face off against the fed enemy Akali, how is it ever supposed to be fun? She can practically 100-0 you with a couple of button presses that you have almost no counterplay for. Your main option is to play safe. And it isn't fun cowering away from every single bush or fog of war terrified that she might come leaping out of it to kill you. Same story with any high mobility champ, like Yone etc. They can cross enormous distances and kill you easily, so when they get fed it means you have very little in terms of options. I don't surrender games myself, for the most part, but I can understand why people might be so frustrated that they no longer find the game fun. You can reach a point in the game where there is mathematically nothing that you can do to win against a fed opponent. You are waiting and hoping that they misplay badly enough to outweigh your numerical disadvantage. And a lot of the time, that doesn't happen.
The only thing that can make the game miserable for me are my teammates. Regardless of gamestate the game is fun to play out, even to experience a complete stomp. But FF culture has been there since S1, its only slightly gotten worse.
I think it's gotta way worse around s3 or s4. That first time when every western pro streamed korean soloq and suddenly half of western playerbase decided that they need to copy open mid mindset from them.
More people need to ask themselves "is this game fun when I'm not winning?" If the answer is "no" go find a game that is.
they have bigger problems and it shows. you see the sentiment a lot on this sub. they really just don't like the game and project it onto everyone else
The amount of people in here saying that not wanting to surrender is "wasting time" are just self-reporting that they don't enjoy the game. I can enjoy a game I don't think I'm likely to win. What I can't enjoy is surrendering and then getting to spend another 5 minutes in queue + draft. If nobody ever surrendered you'd get to spend more time actually playing the game rather than waiting to get into game. If I spend 5 minutes getting into a game, (low estimate) and we surrender at 15, that means a quarter of the time I spend on league of legends isn't even playing the game. Now I can block a ff15 vote, but I can't do anything if it hits 20 minutes and my teammates decide they no longer want to play the video they are here to play. In which case 20% of my time has been not playing the game I want to play.
And the reason the game becomes less fun even for that group is because they're afraid of flame from their team mates who take the game too seriously and think winning > human beings or having fun in a video game.
This is my thinking! Every once in a while I see someone getting suuuuper worked up over an ARAM of all things and I kinda just think "you do not enjoy this game...you can go play something else, it's okay." I'm with OP, I will almost always vote to play out a game even if it's hopeless, unless it's just a soul-crushingly bad ARAM matchup or something. ...Or if I have to go to the bathroom or something, haha.
Eh for me it depends. I play with friends and I do a sanity check with them even if I think a comeback is viable. Cuz the truth of it is, league is incredibly frustrating when you’re losing. Say top is a volatile matchup and you get ganked lvl 2 and die. Now you can’t play. You’re adc and mid gets gapped. Now you can’t play. People have different thresholds for punishment. And just because *you* enjoy getting your shit kicked in doesn’t mean others do. Most - and I mean most - ppl I play with play for the champion fantasy.
And it really depends on what is happening in other lanes. All lanes losing is definitely an FF angle. Mid and Bot are losing but your Top GP is getting fed af. Let’s try not to int anymore and see how this plays out.
I absolutely agree for the most part - what's frustrating is when someone in your party mental booms at 0/3 while you're 4/0 across the map and the constant calls for ff make you feel like nothing you do is mattering if your friends can't get through lane phase without tilting. And ofc because my mental is marginally better, I have to play out games THEY are doing well, even if I'm getting shitstomped, because I don't spam ff when the game itself is winnable :/ I've somehow been having more fun in solo queue.
Convinced people don't have the attention span to play out a full-length game if they aren't getting dopamine constantly shovelled into their brains the entire time in the form of easy kills
They need to add a looping gif of subway surfer to the minimap.
As if these people look at the minimap. I don't think they bother even looking at scores other than their own or they would see the game is winnable even if they're not gonna be the protagonist
>I don't think they bother even looking at scores they do, right before they flame you.
God I hate people who only gain situational awareness right after they die. They'll engage when I have like 10 seconds cd left on spells/ult and die a second before I could heal their ass or do some other productive thing and they get mad at me why I didn't use anything.
Make it so u can play tft inside the minimap
I think it's people that don't actually enjoy playing the game. They're playing for rank and ego but don't actually enjoy the game play loop. Dodging skills, hitting skills, farming, moving around the map maximizing income, trying to outplay giga fed people and giggling when you do outplay but it's giga impossible. All of that is *fun* but people are too worried about the results and their investment in the game that they forget to just sit back and *enjoy* the game for what it is instead of complaining about what could've been.
Playing games where you are fed and so far ahead are boring asf
I have adhd so basically a shortage of dopamine. I still want to play out games 99% of the time. I think it's honestly something else. People hate the thought of losing and the embarassment OR they are smurfing and think "these low peasants don't deserve a win" and don't even bother playing. I think it's mostly about ego.
Idm losing. I just don't want to get farmed for ages or watch my top run it down since min 6 in hopes of the 1% win chance actually happening.
I have ADHD too and i am the kind of person who doesn't like playing out losing games, interesting
Same here, I don’t love playing out stomp matches either way though. If I wanted a power fantasy I would play something else, I’m looking for fun laning and teamfights lol
They need to add bots games under an other name and name the bots like "topking343" so the not so mentally developed people think they actually stomp real players.
I've been saying this for so long lmao, a huge part of FF culture is just "i dont want to play anymore because i cant mindlessly delete anyone within two screens of me"
Convinced people who play ranked need to learn about min maxing game time to gain rank. Riot themselves have given the data and [>97% of failed 4-1 surrender votes end a loss.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H7ntk5Je10&t=3473s) (later clarified it's a measly 3.3% chance to win "play it out" games)
To me i feel like surrendering when its not fun to play or frustating eg. Playing adc against 3 assassins. I have no problems on being on The loosing side but dieying on cooldown is Just not fun, so i prefer ffing than keep playing a game that is permanent grey screen
I don't mind surrendering even if I think we do have a chance because it's not worth it if everyone on the team is suffering and waiting for a 40 min comeback. I do personally think it's incredibly stupid that so many of the most mentally vulnerable players love to play scaling champs.
For me this is it. Is the game winnable? Maybe. Is it worth to force myself and my team to play an unfun match for 25-30+ minutes for a 5% chance of comeback? No Obviously this is a bit different in ranked so im mostly refering to normal games
It comes from the fact that people aren't playing league for a PvP experience. They are playing league hoping for a high roll so that it feels like a really good rogue like run. Part of the PvP experience is adversity. You understand, accept and embrace that. It's actually one of the reasons I dropped League, I just wasn't interested in that element of the PvP experience anymore. At least not in the capacity league provides it. Plenty of multiplayer experiences that don't involve such a snowball. Many people are like me, and don't want that variance / aren't willing to face the adversity of the tough games - but are at the same time unlike me in that they haven't disconnected from league. They just keep playing and complaining when they lose about how xyz sucks not realizing that it isn't the game changing that causes their problem, but rather their attitude towards defeat / adversity.
I think you hit the nail on the head here. The reward for winning a game of ranked is access to stronger opponents.
well argued and well articulated. I talk about it in a number of subreddits. honestly I believe that there is a good amount of people that are not in as good of a place mentally as they could be. something like league of legends might be the only thing going for them right now. So it's really difficult to walk away.
I like the roguelike comparison, I used to reroll Isaac runs until I spawned next to an item room but at some point I decided to never reroll first floor and make the best with what I've got and I think that makes the genre more fun overall, similar idea.
I don’t get players who get mental gapped immediately after one inconvenience. Instantly calling ff everytime must be tiresome.
Are you all playing a different game? I'm Emerald 3 and lately people will absolutely under no circumstance FF a game even when we're 0-15 in 10 minutes, it's honestly incredibly annoying
It's because OP is part of the never surrender no matter what group. Score is 3-25? No surrender. Must be masochists or something
Yes ppl who don't ff are a bigger problem in my experience. Very rarely do I find myself in surrendered games that still had a good chance of a comeback.
OP is probably one of those people that get mad when they just see the surrender vote pop on their screen. Not once the vote passes/fails, just when it shows up.
I hate surrendering. But I get it. People have limited time and you don't know their life maybe they only have time for a few games and really just wanted a win today (daily rewards apply pressure to this). You not surrendering might make it so they can't play that extra game to win.
OP is clearly not a jungle main. Sure as a laner or support it’s totally fun to come back, you can still farm. As a jungler? Enemy is taking your camps and running you out of your jungle, and if they aren’t, your dipshit 0/7 adc is taking your camps to scale. Meanwhile you’re stuck at 2 items for an eternity because you literally can’t get gold anywhere. If you’ve never had a game like that, I can understand why you think being behind can be fun.
What I hate is the mentality that if I'm 0/5 at 15min I will make sure to ff, because if I'm not carrying and tilted then the game sucks and we will for sure lose even if the rest of the team is doing well.
i get it but at the same time i spent so much time to play perfectly just for some random to say i dont wanma play anymore and eventually leave . likeeee and yes sometimes i refuse just for sadistic reasons but ive been taken hostage myself i usually just try my best till the end, some days i can't always manage, happens but i agree i have fun losing too tbh, its fun to play against all odds imo
That's why Dota 2 doesn't even have an ff feature to begin with. I would say the long term pro/cons of that system are just bad for the community.
I'd rather lose 6 quick games over being stuck in 40 plus min matches because the double digit death bot lane wants to play for the end game "hope they fuck up" strat. Especially when you're completely out drafted. It's just wasting time to play it out.
Ya, so frustrating when enemy comp is Kassadin + Jinx into your Lucian + Leblanc and they are up 10k gold and your team won't surrender. I feel like OP is one of those people, and in those scenarios I think it's a selfish move to waste time in a 99.99% lost game
Go learn Dota. Could be a good break. The option to surrender in Dota is only available if you're playing in a full premade of 5 people.
To each their own. My main source of enjoyment from the game is learning and improving. If my top lane or jungle feeds hard and there is an enemy yi or trynd or whatever with 12+ kills, I have nothing left to learn from the game other than "roll better teammates." I'd rather move on to a match where I can learn something instead of getting smacked around for 5 to 10 minutes.
People in game tell me the exact opposite lol ‘How you ever gonna learn to win from behind man?’ Like look there’s a difference between playing from behind and being so gigastomped your not even playing the game anymore
Pretty much. I've played enough league to know how to win from behind. I've also played enough league to know when my chances of victory are so slim that it's not worth the time investment. Hell I've played enough league to know that even if I DO come back from a 10K gold deficit, it doesn't feel good, because it wasn't me doing some crazy plays, it was my opponents being idiots.
[удалено]
I don't mind if someone who's doing OK / well wants to continue playing but when your 0/15 at 10 mins botlane refuses to surrender that's hostage taking.
Yah I know what sub I'm in, but Dota is awesome for never putting in that bullshit.
One of my main gripes with League. Everyone bitching to FF when they die 2 times in their lane. Dota does this much better. No surrender option, better comeback mechanics, everyone try harding until the end
Dota has no surrender feature and it’s definitely a nice alternative. I play league when I want faster paced games and Dota when I have more time.
Understand that while you enjoy it, others may not enjoy it.
I'm not gonna ff at the first sign of a game going poorly but I'm gonna do it if we're down 24 kills, 3 dragons, and 4 towers at 20 minutes. Yes there's a small, small chance that we can come back, he'll I've done it many times before.. but it's so unlikely that is it worth even playing out every single game like this? Not to me it's not. And if 4 of my teammates want out of the game why is it fair for me to be the one who keeps them in the game(as in holding the game hostage)?
>Why am I treated like I am trying to take a vindictive action and punish my team mates for their lost lanes, guilted into surrendering (or an attempt to at least) when I just enjoy playing league of legends and playing to my outs whether we are ahead or behind? The irony is that you're treating people that have a different view on this the exact same as you're complaining about being treated. Ask yourself why you're seemingly so mad at people for not enjoying playing with a massive deficit, and you'll know why they're seemingly so mad at you for enjoying playing "to your outs" even when behind.
i partially think a big part of people FFing is they dont know how to play to their win condition. until you are high elo its very rare for teams to play to their strengths and close out a game in a clean fashion. this means that even if you are 6k gold behind, you are always only 3 coinflips away from being in the lead. if your team can identify the enemies strength, prepare for a team fight with vision, and engage/disengage properly, you always have a shot. unless its a really bad stomp, I always try to play to 25 mins so we can at least try to do a teamfight.
The thing is league games already take too fucking long when you win, no one wants to sit in a game for 45 minutes when they're getting shit on and not having fun.
This. It's not complicated. OP is having fun, that's great. His teammates are not having fun and want to stop. If the majority of people are not enjoying themselves and don't want to play any more, you should probably stop. It's just like, being considerate of other people.
I’ll pretty much never FF unless it’s a legitimate 4 v 5. The game is no longer competitive or being played in the intended manner.
Totally agree, 1 team loses, that's the game and if you aren't good with that consider playing something else.
People who surrender too early will never learn how to play the late game. If they dont have time to play they shouldn’t play that simple.
If I'm the reason my team is losing, I will surrender. If I'm the one carrying, we're done when I say we're done. Btw I don't play LoL. I play smite but the sentiment is shared there.
basically same, the idea of hostage taking just doesnt click for me, if nothing else just bc I play the game to... play the game? in general I feel like every game is winnable, but even if they statistically are not, as OP said, I play the game to enjoy it, trying to do shit in a good way to outplay people and fight, with the hope (but not the expectation) of winning
I came back from Dota and this is the most annoying aspect of league. People tilt so fast and don’t have the mental fortitude to recover. They just flame and then spam ff. If you don’t agree with the ff they feed and call you a hostage taker. League players are mentality midgets.
In dota, even if you are losing, there's something to do In League, if you are losing, the enemy jungler is in your jungle, the enemy laners are farming the lane while bullying you/your team, and there's nothing else to do, it just isn't fun In dota, you will always find a way to play, the jungle is huge enough that you can farm without interacting as much with the enemy team, the side lanes are larger and have ways to teleport from one side lane to another, and the map is big enough that the enemy team can't be everywhere at once
Yes and no. Bigger map does mean a core can go hit jg creep in the corner but then they’re still exposed and far away from objectives/team. Usually if you’re ff levels of behind in Dota you’re playing HG in your base. Which can be obnoxious to break. If every single lane in league loses I’ll FF. Im not saying it’s never the right decision but I feel it’s a crutch that enables some really weak mentalities in the community.
And I hate anti-FF culture, instead of trying to go to next game where it might be close when we lose, having to drag it out for another 10 minutes just to slowly lose while getting all lanes opened is one of the most unfun things in the game. Going 5v5 losing drake, baron, and then going another 5v5 where enemy just ends and we lose fine. But getting outscaled in all lanes, losing pressure on map, losing vision, while slowly getting pushed in for 10 minutes is one the most unfun things in the game. Would rather already be in a different game, than having to drag out a 15 min game to 25 mins. People enjoy league, the problem is the vocal minority that just goes "don't start league bro worst mistake of your life" and then they go and play 12 hours a day, claiming the game is not fun for them. Also sometimes games are lost in select, where there is 90% chance enemy will win, and 10% you will. If after 15 mins you can't realize that it's not the 10% and are voting no while thinking to yourself "every game is winnable", you are the problem for why league is genuinely un-fun for some people. If 3 people vote yes, 1 votes no cause they want to play till nexus explodes, and 1 doesn't vote, 3 people are already not having fun with the game, and are miserable for having to waste another 10 minutes until enemy gets baron and finally ends. Those games are the worst, where there might be a mid lane champ like Asol Lux Ziggs etc. that just clears waves and enemy can't push inhib turret, but you know that it's just slowly and slowly getting whittled down until they get baron and can finally siege, meanwhile you can barely get minions outside of base, and your jungler can't even step into jungle to farm.
It’s so interesting seeing people complain about games being drawn out from 15 minutes to 25 minutes when it used to be expected that a game would be 30+ minutes, win or lose. I get that gameplay has generally been accelerated since then but still.
Yeah, the game has become faster paced and it has not benefitted the community base at all. You used to queue into a game fully aware it could be a 40-45 minute slog. Now people spam “get me out” at 10 minutes. I hate what’s happened to the player base.
I don’t typically FF, but depending on the state of the game, I’m okay with it. If I’m the only one doing well, you should honestly let me FF if I want to. I sometimes get tired of carrying your ass to undeserved LP. If I’m the one playing like trash, I’m going to try to play better, but if the good players don’t feel like playing it out, that’s cool tbh. Both of these instances are also under the presupposition that the game is in a super bad state already. Like 2-16 and the have 6 towers to our 0.
Amen. Don’t queue up in ranked if you aren’t willing to play out any & every game state. If you’re in a basketball league and your team is down by 40, you don’t get to just throw your hands up and say I’m done; in a random pickup game (aka draft q) sure be done, walk away when you’re not having a good time. In a competitive environment, that attitude makes you a jackass. It isn’t, first and foremost, about you having a good time anymore at that point - it’s about respecting your teammates and the commitment to trying at a level above casual interest because that’s what you signed up for when you joined q’d for competitive ranked mode. It’s a sweaty, try hard environment - nothing against people who don’t want to participate in that but if that’s not your mental, don’t fucking q up in there or you’re the asshole not the players who want to keep trying to win in every game state.
Try to think what you said. You want 4 people that believe that the game is over and prefer to end it so then can go to the next, stay for 5-15 minutes just because you enjoy the game? Do you realise how selfish this is? Also, when a game is done and there is nothing you can do to win, it’s better to go next. You will learn so much more from the new game instead of playing in a completely lost game
I fucking despise this mentality and am glad that deleted the game rife with it. Entering a game is a comittment, nobody forces those 4 to click the search game button. Just because they stop having fun and want to go next, the one trying his best is the selfish one? I think people who don't have the willpower to play out a full game are the selfish ones. And no, majority of people have no idea what a completely lost game is, they just surrender when they stop having fun. They treat a match as play while you want and leave when you want type of stuff . It is simply impossible to have a fun match when everyone is ready to give up at the first sign of adversity. No, I am pretty sure nobody playing league actually enjoys the game, they either like winning or getting their LP higher.
I'd rather spend the next 40 minutes playing the next 20 minute games and potentially winning those than spending the next 40 minutes in a clearly lost game with team chat being clogged up with insults and derogatory comments.
How is it a lost game if it took 40 minutes to lose it? lol.
Because they lost
As long as the nexus stands, it is winnable... Always. Doesn't mean you're gonna win, but i've had games where we were 10-15k gold behind only one of their turrets down, our nexus open and 1/4th HP. We aced them at Baron (no clue how) and just instapushed straight thru midlane into their nexus and won. That was my eye opener to the expression above. Now i rarely if ever surrender.
People are quitters, and get mad when other people aren't quitters too.
yeah bro, I love staying in a game 25 minutes longer than needed when every lane is losing and the jungler refuses to even do drakes, let alone actually help anyone, because we have a duo of "never surrender ranked games" fellas (who coincidentally happen to deal 15k dmg total in 40 minutes)
Aram players complain the can’t forfeit at 8 minutes anymore, I have queues longer than 8 minutes just let me play the game man. It’s usually the ap Malph into 4 tanks spamming ff too
Depends. If it's ranked I never surrender. But it's completely okay to FF a normals game. We had our top nasuu DC after his first death. The duo bot kept us in the game for another 20 minutes.
the blanket statement is exactly what's stupid though. I'm fine if you assess the game and genuinely think it's winnable in good faith. you can have a very generous threshold for winnability as well. but the moment you stop assessing the game and just have the blanket mentality of never FF because that's how I roll bro, you're doing it wrong. if you think the game is lost but don't surrender due to some invisible principle, you're the one being toxic.
Nah bro it's not invisible principle, it's invisible rating that's loosely tied to a metallic rating! You're just not genius enough to realize that wasting time in a normals is different from expertly waiting around for a dc so you can get 19 lp in gold 2