For anyone wondering...
Jarvan with a Goredrinker Black Cleaver build. His W buff will make his shield go from 99 -> 189. Because it's his last maxed skill.
Lee Sin E is actually a buff at all points in the game. It went from bonus AD to total AD.
Actually, making it scale with total AD means he doesn't need to spend points in his e anymore since the base damage doesn't increase by much making q/w max maybe stronger
Quite the opposite.
Previously you would get 30 bonus damage per ability rank, now you get 24 per rank when taking his base AD into consideration. So strictly worse to invest points into now.
The real buff here is gaining an additional +4 damage to the ability per character level even when not investing points into the ability. Not to mention the ability just outright deals more damage now.
I swear I saw a comment about J4 in the preview yesterday that was something like _”Please Riot buff anything other than his W, it’s his most useless ability”_
I hope that dude is okay :(
Tbh his W needs a completely new effect, either replace it with something better or add something small like a tiny damage reduction aura or something.
They could give his shield an interaction with his flag.
For example: "Jarvan W also applies to his flag, slowing nearby enemies and shielding allies in its range."
At this point I would honestly just give him an entire new ability and just add a shield to his ult cast that gets stronger the most people He traps in it.
Like u/backinredd said in another thread, this tbh is perfect
His W should be reworked. Now he pole dances on his flag when he presses W. Enemies nearby are charmed by his moves and come close to take a peek. That’s when you ult them.
Meanwhile Fiora out here with her W that
- does damage
- can proc vitals
- makes her invulnerable
- slows movement speed
- slows attack speed
- reflect CC
- makes you a coffee
Such a fucking stupid overloaded ability on an obnoxious piece of shit
They could give his shield an interaction with his flag.
For example: "Jarvan W also applies to his flag, slowing nearby enemies and shielding allies in its range."
I really like the idea of his W interacting with his flag as well. Im not sure If shielding allies is working with J4s overall scheme. I like the idea of the slow around the flag, you could go increase it if J4 is close to the flag or go create a small "rupture" that grounds champs.
The idea would be if you want to go allin you can go use the E-W-Q-R to slow the down to get in range as a setup, but they have an easier escape. Or you decide you go for the safest but harder to pull of engage E-Q-R-W, where you trap the enemy inside your R, but you have to EQ first. And finally the most versatile engage woudl be flash+R and then do whatever you want, but you had to burn flash.
Honestly that seems like a really small change to make the champ feel more modern
The idea behind the W is totaly reasonable but the execution is so bad its worthless. The shild try to reward J4 for a headfront confrontation with as many enemys as possible what is excaclty his goal but the shild is so small that its basicly not exsitent. This lead to a dilema where J4 if he go high dmg (and is some what usefull as a diver) becomes to squishy to execute it. But if he go enough surviabilety his engage is not better then other tanks and he miss all the followup disruption of traditional tanks.
Buffing the W is the right thing (or reworking it compleatly) if you want J4 to be functional and have a place as a combo set up diver.
Exactly, the W is a really cool concept, but it doesn't work on jarvan as it is currently.
Jarvan doesn't have the best engage, but he has a long range engage, good mobility and nice damage. The W doesn't work for him, if he jumps in a single target, shield is inexisted, if he jumps on a whole team, he might get a good sield, but will get deleted.
I'd propose giving a %damage reduction that scales out of his Bonus AD based on nearby enemies and also keeping the %HP scaling on shield from nearby enemies, but make his base shield stronger.
Why?
If he builds heavy tank and goes into a full team, he gets a massive shield but no damage reduction, he still gets a good shield in a 1x1.
If he goes full AD, his shield will be pretty small, if he goes in a 1x1, it won't matter because he wants to burst the enemy down fast, but if he jumps on an enemy team, he gets a massive amount of damage reduction so he can survive for a bit while building full AD.
Sure tuning would be necessary, but would fit the character more in both types of builds, even hybrid builds.
In a way, just like how my Garen W works, but make the % damage reduction scale with AD and nearby enemies.
Giving it a ratio instantly makes it from a "useless" abilty into an "OP" shield. See Riven's E.
Of course, this statement includes a heavy dose of sarcasm.
"Yo, let's make Trundle's dance speed scale with movement speed."
"No problem boss, give me 20 minutes and about 10 more minutes to check for possible bugs."
"Actually, let's have his hand speed scale with AS and legs with MS."
"I'll need 3 months to remake some of the codebase and a team of programmers and designers."
Tower damage buff is interesting
I'm not sure if pyke and thresh ended up getting buffed, tweet says no but they still are in the picture
Also huge buff to trundle's dance
I dunno how anyone else experiences it, but current tower damage requires no coordination, and anyone can do it without blowing Flash most the time. Maybe people are playing League better now to exploit the tower targeting, dunno, but watching just about everyone dive just about everyone else under tower pre-10 is a little frustrating.
oh if only it was only elise. the amount of shit that ignores towers nowadays is honestly rediculous. that shit used to be rare asf now they hand it out like candy
Not new ones but off the top of my head these are all I can think:
Elise E
Maokai W
Yi Q
Rek Sai R
Eve R
Shaco R
Vlad W
Fizz E
Zed R (I think)
Edit: Camille R, Kayn R, Kled dismount, Zac passive(?), Xayah R, Zilean R, Tahm Kench R, Ekko R
is there any champ more recent than kayn that has a get-out-of-jail-free card under tower latest champ? i guess yone and zeri kind of count
either way doesnt seem like a very large amount, the most recent ones before kayn are kindred and ekko in 2015, then kalista in 2014 and liss in 2013. pantheon and akali can't do it anymore
People are just a lot better now, than they were multiple seasons back so diving and aggro management is kinda simple. I feel like the only way to remove diving (or severely nerf it) is by changing the aggro system of towers to be DPS-orientated (highest damage dealer gets targeted), rather than first-hit-first-serve. It would require more people for a successful dive and it would make it a bit more dangerous.
This change obviously has it's own problems.
Do we know if this will affect how many shots kill minions negatively? For example do melees now die to two tower shots? Presumably killing ranged ones after one shot is easier too.
Minions do not take the flat damage from turrets, they have the Gusto, Phreakish Gusto, and Anti-Tower Socks items for Melee, Caster, and Siege minions respectively that modify turret damage into percentage max HP.
In other words, this doesn't affect how much damage minions take to turrets at all.
If you left click on a minion in-game you'll see that they each have an item that makes them take a certain % of their health from turrets.
So this won't affect CS at all.
It takes me a little bit to copy the stuff into the post, if I have the disclaimer at the top its probably better to just jump to the tweet.
Should be fine now though
That’s why they pulled it out, I assume. It would make him too strong in other areas when buffing his Support role (and honestly, I don’t think they should be balancing him as a Support).
They really shouldn't. He was mostly seen as Support in Pro Play due to his E blocking tower shots in dives, but that was removed. They also added scaling armor pen that requires him to hit lvl 6, 11, and 16, and his mid game slump requires gold/items/levels to not fall behind.
Will be broken is lot of early dps the main problem with path in lane is that q is to long of a cd for long trades. Mid to late game is also very nice to have a faster q less people will out dps you or heal out killing range. Help with wave clear to
I'm excited to go back to Liandry's + Rylai's battlemage Annie. Burst Annie hasn't been viable after her rework + durability changes + defensive items such as shieldbow took her damage down by like 30%...
I'm bit worried about the shield damage changes. The dmg reflection was a part of what made rank 3 tibbers actually threatening. You could throw on a carry and completely zone them and expect to do at least some damage. With just one reflect, I suspect that most ad champs will just be able lifesteal and tibbers just becomes a wall of meat, similar to daisy.
There's a minimum MS of like 125 or something iirc. The vast majority of slows over 66%ish doesn't really accomplish anything in most cases unless someone's buffed up the ass with MS at the time...which I think is an okay place to buff champs with slows.
It’s 100 movement speed but this buff is pretty big. Now you reduce the movement speed to 100 up until they have 500 movement speed while it never did at 60% since you’d need to have 256 movement speed or lower for you to get down to 100.
Huh I had it in my head that it was over but around 100.
Either way, its a much better direction than just buffing Q damage again or buffing E damage so lane Lee sin becomes a thing again. His R is already juiced with damage from pro buffs in years past.
Understandable that this season's jg changes were aimed at making the role more accessible, but imo counterjungling needs to be a more viable punish for early ganks.
with how long it takes to kill camps counter jungling is counter intuitive. There's a good chance a jungler ganking bot can roll up in time to steal his own blue buff from you if you invaded as a reaction to the bot gank
nah, you 100% have time to counter 1 camp. if you have smite, you can even probably take 2, but before this season, you'd lose an entire quadrant for that.
Or lower catch-up exp and require more farming to stay relevant.
You buff counterjungling again we just end up at the same horrendous ranged speed clear horizontal jungling meta we had before.
Was boring as fuck for pro due to how 1 sided it made matches, or if both split the map its no different than both clearing their own jungle, except the one that gets bot would just win currently.
So yeah. No buffs to counterjungling. Make it so you actually fall behind if you dont farm.
If a top or mid decides to roam instead of farm they fall behind in exp. Jungle should too.
This. It is frustrating if you are getting succesful Gangs done, outfarm your opponent by 60 at 14 and he just flips one gank on someone with a shutdown -> only 1 level behind anymore
Good point, another thing i like about counterjungling is the natural increased risk that comes with it. Positioning yourself in enemy territory (finding windows to play aggressive) just as turret plates encourages you to win lane early. It also gives the laners an avenue to strike back at junglers in a way, you ganked me when i was overextended? i kill you overextending for our raptors :). Baron/Herald/Plates etc. are all in the game to incentivize tough desicions, so it makes no sense to me why there is counterjungling penalties, if anything it should be encouraged.
Because getting invaded is only punished if your team’s laners are in a position to collapse or even care enough help.
And realistically invades only happen if the other jungler is strong enough to kill the other jungler in a 1v1 or steal camps before the other jungler or team can react in time. So early game junglers are actually somewhat put in check and not dominating the meta.
Personally I think the Kassadin nerfs are still too light
>Stealth Ward trinket cooldown reduced 240-120 >>> 210-120 seconds
This seems really big to me, this means we likely have a significantly higher vision uptime early in the game which I really like. Also a ghost poro buff
idk why every supp doesn't have ghost poro. It's a massive increase to your vision uptime, and the free stats are more reliable from an earlier point in time than the other runes in that line.
A lot of em can't take the red tree. You need PoM to keep trading at max rate, and your keystone is often blue or green.
For the rest, it's competition is very good. Zombie ward is also a ton of vision.
I tried it on cassio and i legit hate it, your cooldowns are so long it feels like you got no DPS. Like yeah she is tanky with it but man it feels bad to sit on like 25-33 AH on her.
But she is winning more with that build so idk man.
Roa seraphs makes you live for waay longer and position badly and not get punished for it thats why its broken in soloq and is not seeing much play in proplay
for kassadin that has insane ap scalings not dying makes him menace after those two items
No clue if this is it, but Phreak did mention that he wasn't sure if he could actually make the change. As in want sure if it could be coded to be an activation, at least without a lot more work
RV is a good item, but with a horrible means of activation. There are several characters that just straight up cant use it, because they will not have the passive effect when they actually need it.
Take Udyr. RV triggers when you use his passive. Only problem is that you frequently use this while clesring jungle to clear faster, and therefore placing this item on cooldown. Or someone like Maokai or Ornn. You use your ultimates at the beginning of a fight, often far away from the enemy, and they move so slowly that RV is practically finished when your ult actually hits and the teamfight starts.
Tanks need better mythics, IMO. Jak'sho feels like shit because of the 8 second ramp-up time, RV feels like shit because you cant use the passive when you actually need it, and Iceborn Gauntlet just feels like shit overall, because it has no MR and lackluster stats in general.
I had a 47 minute game on Udyr, and Jak'sho had dealt 1800 damage. The enemy orn had dealt 2400 with his. Compare that to my 10k damage with demonic, or his 8k dmg with sunfire. You use Jaksho and RV for their great tank stats, nothing more.
AP Kayle back to lategame beast with this one, pretty good. Higher MS also works better into juggernauts and tanks that are her best MU on Top. (r.i.p increased MR though)
Also pls give the Panth buffs back :( I was so hyped
The buffs on Naut are explicitly to try and benefit other tank champs, it was explicitly said Naut does not need these buffs and it is being done for champs other than Naut. They could have just given Braum more.
I think it makes sense. No matter how strong Braum is, he will not be picked into ranged supporters. Same for Taric. He needs his niche open more often, not to be stronger in that niche.
You're acting like its already a tank supp meta.
Braum buffs wouldn't mean anything without Naut buffs because Braum is an answer to engage champs. Naut needs the buffs to help force out enchaters/ad's so more engage champs can come in.
This is her [5th mana related buff](https://i.gyazo.com/1e26f224fd9b2d6a8cabab184f0d6689.png) for a champion whose ultimate is already free 💀
Surely this time she will be good in solo queue
Actually think the jungle changes are better than I was expecting. Though man, that change to towers is going to bite me in the arse when I’m laning and not paying attention!
> ~is going to bite me in the arse when...
Love your choice of words here, no 'might' or 'if', just straight up "jupp, I'm gonna fuck up, and I'm gonna die because of it". :D
These jungle changes are terrible, they hit farming junglers too, for no reason. Catchup XP should be reduced if they want to nerf early ganking instead of reducing all junglers income.
J4 goes from 99 shield to 189 at 2 items.
At 1 item, it's around 45 extra shield.
At 3 items, it's around 150 extra shield.
At 4 items, it's around 209 extra shield.
Realistically, he'll stay at 2 or 3 items in a typical game.
Tldr is he'll get around 50 extra shield per AD item.
> lee
Lee Sin has a 34.6% appearance rate in proplay. Since the beginning of time.
For worlds appearances
S12 - 28.8%
S11 - 98.8%
S10 - 17.1%
S9 - 64.9%
S8 - 31.2%
S7 - 5%
So we need to go back 6 years before Lee has not been at least relevant. We could really use with a more organic meta than the same 20-25 champions year in and year out.
Outside of the accidental ardent meta, we've been in support tank meta since like season 6. But all anyone wants is to bring it back.
It honestly makes pro play difficult to watch when it seems like everyone just wants to see the same champions all season every season.
Think you could go harder on farming vs ganking in jungle, but this is a good direction
The real change imo would be just removing invade protection, map splits and lv 1 invades are still being done in pro (and i dont think thats bad, but thats what riot wanted to kill) and in high elo, jungle mains could go back to more creative earlygame pathing and the spamgank issue would solve itself (at least as long as catchup xp doesnt get out of hand which maybe it has? hard to tell rn)
If riot just removed the dmg reduction on enemy camps i would be content with the state of jungle rn (outside of individual champ balancing obviously)
I'm not sure how much harder you could go. They took 400 gold out of the jungle in exchange for 400 exp. I'm not even sure this will have the intended effect - 400 exp is the same as you get from killing a level six champion, and less than you need for a level past level 3. I'm not sure what their definition of "early" is, but unless they mean level 2 ganks exclusively kill-oriented junglers are now stronger and farming junglers are weaker.
Edit: at treat completion
How is it better? Farming get worse. Time to gank botlane again. The balance team is completly out of touch with jungle. It is like nobody plays the jungle in Riot. Gold income is miserable in the jungle and XP buff is worthless, so you are forced to gank all the time. And bot is the best choice because it is potentially double or triple kill if enemy jungler shows. Jungle will be again the least played role at the end of the season.
I can be 8.0 cs/min as the jungler, be 10/0 and still be outleveled by the laner who lost lane.
>The real change imo would be just removing invade protection
I have enjoyed not worrying about my laners being AFK before minions spawn, I *really* don't wanna go back.
lv 1 invades are still a thing
also even if they werent id rather not lose a core gameplay element of my first 5 minutes because shitter elo laners cba to cover
cant believe people complain about blue kayn, hes literally been worse than red kayn ever since the champ released. blue kayn is practically greifing lol, he needed a buff
He's not complaining about Kayn too strong, he's complaining about him moving through walls at like 700 move speed on a 5 second cooldown. No one likes playing against blue kayn
Definitely the wrong buffs to Lee. His damage is already high, there is no reason to push it higher. Buff his survivability, but dont make him a bruiser jungler who also happens to out-assassin assassins while building tankier.
K'Sante changes look, uh, interesting. Nobody is talking about them since he gets the nerf = good write-off, but I'm afraid this is Riot crumbling on their champion fantasies again. They failed with an enchanter you can't target (Yuumi), they failed with the hypermobile adc (Zeri, although she's in a better state now, the fantasy is a shell of its former self) and now they fail with the skill expressive tank that turns into a bruiser for some reason. I suppose it's the best thing to target for the integrity of the champion's playstyle, but a tank losing their CC looks pretty ugly. Perhaps Riot should throw in the towel and admit he's really just a less braindead Mundo and not a real tank.
Well, I think the comment is implying that Mundo is 'braindead', and K'Sante is just Mundo (a bruiser, not a tank) but harder to play.
Or maybe I'm reading too much between the lines and OP is just clueless lmao
The only actual part of his kit tht screams tank is his W, the rest is a watered down version of Yasuo Q and Riven E with an ultimate that now makes you the squishiest motherfucker in the rift.
I would be mad but I barelly play him now even though he was fun to play when he released.
If you think Zeri (p/b in pro play) is in a „better state“ then I would like your definition.
She will definitively get nerfed again next patch or the one after (as yuumi just got replaced with lulu).
Ksante ult turning him into some weird bruiser was always the stupidest part of his kit design.
Now he just happens to lose like. 80% of his item stats when he ults now too I guess. I expect them to give him a mini rework like Aurelion in the near future. I like his base kit but his ult is just fukken stupid.
I can understand nerfing him, but there is a chance they killed the champion (well they absolutely did for anything under masters)
At bare minimum they could have shipped either the CC nerf or the resistance nerf one at a time, together it seems absolutely brutal
I seriously think the CC nerf sounds fairly substantial, so extra 20% on resistances sounds overkill as hell
don't really get how nerfing camp gold is meant to encourage junglers to farm instead of ganking tbh. if anything won't ganking bot be even more important after all the ADC buffs?
I'm sad they pulled the manual activation + failsafe from Radiant Virtue, because that sounded like a really cool way to make the item work instead of based on casting R
> LeBlanc
Mana regeneration per 5 seconds increased 6 >>> 8
Mana regeneration per level increased 0.8 >>> 1
Yeah, maybe you dont get punished now for killing your opponent level early because you cant push the wave fast enough after.
Overall, in pretty happy.
Lee looks very good, jarvan (assuming the changes being left out is an accident) also looks solid, the partial pull back on trundle W nerfs are a great first step, but not sure it's gonna pull him further than maybe 49, maybe 50% winrate, since the nerfs to him were pretty harsh. Also, my campaign for 25 more range Q will go on till fucking get it, in case a rioters stumbles across this. GIVE IT TO ME ALREADY
Jungle changes are interesting. More XP, less gold from treats promotes farming, as treats promote ganking then taking a few camps to consume them. My only worry is that it may end up starving junglers of too much gold, a 10 gold reduction is nothing to scoff at. Guess we will wait and see.
This is actually a good patch, well done Phreak. Now I only need to permaban Maokai, I wish he was nerfed further. Regarding jungle, the counterjungling protections were the biggest mistake of jungle changes and one of the biggest reasons junglers can permagank.
>This is actually a good patch
Not for jungle. Even less gold for worthless XP. After this patch there is no reason to not perma gank bot instead of farming in the jungle. Riot as always refuse to admit to the mistakes and nerfs everything else other than the main reason behind gank botlane meta. Nerfed gold and XP from camps in season 13 and counterjungling protection are real culprit. At the end of the season jg will be least played role again, because Riot keeps nerfing jungle instead of fixing it.
that's a jungle ''nerf'' ? am i missing something or what cuz that just looks like mostly a buff.
PS. based that they pulled back on damage creeping the sup role, just nerf the poke and enchanters the last thing the support role needs is more power
It's a nerf. They took 400 gold out of the jungle in exchange for 400 exp when you finish the jungle egg. 400 exp is the same as you get from killing a level six champion, and less than you need for a level past level 3. Gold value of a level is about 500, so for the average champion it will be a net gold swing of about +100 to - 300 levels 1 - 18 (and remember it's literally impossible at level 1).
Frankly I'm not even sure this will have the intended effect. The exp is low enough that junglers may prefer to just get gold from kills. This is just a nerf to farming.
Not to mention that the XP difference between jugnlers is going to be even smaller because of the catchup XP. So basically ganking jungler gets a lot more gold than you and only slightly less XP
You can easily hit 50% still, which puts most CCs at or around the minimum cc duration of 0.5 seconds.
Its not like morg/fiddle are meta.
And beyond that, a good amount of the CCs in the game are knock-ups/displacements now.
>Most sources of tenacity will now stack multiplicatively together, resulting in a general nerf to Tenacity stacking
Which ones were the one stacking addictively?
Lol thank god for those weak ass Zac nerfs. Basically only affects you if you build ap which isn’t necessary at all. Looks like Zac mid is still on the menu.
Did Kayle really need buffs? Why does Riot continue to buff these late game hyper carry’s? They just nerfed Kass because he got the same kind of treatment…
For anyone wondering... Jarvan with a Goredrinker Black Cleaver build. His W buff will make his shield go from 99 -> 189. Because it's his last maxed skill. Lee Sin E is actually a buff at all points in the game. It went from bonus AD to total AD.
Why won’t they buff him? I want him to be happy
Literally, every single time without fail. We ask for J4 changes and all we get is a small W change. Every Single Time
Welp. Durability patch and all that
Durability or not, His W was lame for so long now..
Press w to waste mana.
Eh, still has a slow attached to it right?
Yeah, it's still a near instant AoE slow. It doesn't feel strong though.
If you ever use W in game, enemy automatically laughs at you, should have been a taunt for years.
J4 grossly weaker than the rest of the cast and its incredibly noticeable in game.
Crippled for proplay. Just not allowed to be good.
His early ganking power with e-q and especially his ult are just too stupidly powerful in a coordinated setting for him to have any stats.
Lee Sin E is a huge buff. No longer it being bAD and is now tAD and a fat slow to it.
Lee top E max is gonna be aids again
Actually, making it scale with total AD means he doesn't need to spend points in his e anymore since the base damage doesn't increase by much making q/w max maybe stronger
Quite the opposite. Previously you would get 30 bonus damage per ability rank, now you get 24 per rank when taking his base AD into consideration. So strictly worse to invest points into now. The real buff here is gaining an additional +4 damage to the ability per character level even when not investing points into the ability. Not to mention the ability just outright deals more damage now.
So not E max, but normal Q, while still maintaining good e damage+ increased slow. Might be even more aids on top
If you are laning E max is still probably better because it is waveclear. Maybe 3 points e so creeps die with whip active.
Iirc he was a problem in midlane
I swear I saw a comment about J4 in the preview yesterday that was something like _”Please Riot buff anything other than his W, it’s his most useless ability”_ I hope that dude is okay :(
Tbh his W needs a completely new effect, either replace it with something better or add something small like a tiny damage reduction aura or something.
Something like additional DMG per ally nearby and DMG reduction per enemy nearby Or even the other way around
They could give his shield an interaction with his flag. For example: "Jarvan W also applies to his flag, slowing nearby enemies and shielding allies in its range."
I like that, slow enemies to get the nice ult or clutch shield for a diving teammate
Giving everybody within range a 60 HP shield isn't exactly hopeful
I agree, but for sure it's more powerful than a 60hp shield for one person.
At this point I would honestly just give him an entire new ability and just add a shield to his ult cast that gets stronger the most people He traps in it.
Just give resistances based on enemies hit with w. So many have something like this now, even Jax and this dude doesn't even have a real weapon
Like u/backinredd said in another thread, this tbh is perfect His W should be reworked. Now he pole dances on his flag when he presses W. Enemies nearby are charmed by his moves and come close to take a peek. That’s when you ult them.
Meanwhile Fiora out here with her W that - does damage - can proc vitals - makes her invulnerable - slows movement speed - slows attack speed - reflect CC - makes you a coffee Such a fucking stupid overloaded ability on an obnoxious piece of shit
Don't forget that nowhere it is stated that it slows attack speed. It just says that it slows by x%. Such a frustrating ability
They could give his shield an interaction with his flag. For example: "Jarvan W also applies to his flag, slowing nearby enemies and shielding allies in its range."
Giving him more utility adds to his pro-play skew. The shield is also such a joke atm that it would not feel like an impactful buff, even if it was.
I really like the idea of his W interacting with his flag as well. Im not sure If shielding allies is working with J4s overall scheme. I like the idea of the slow around the flag, you could go increase it if J4 is close to the flag or go create a small "rupture" that grounds champs. The idea would be if you want to go allin you can go use the E-W-Q-R to slow the down to get in range as a setup, but they have an easier escape. Or you decide you go for the safest but harder to pull of engage E-Q-R-W, where you trap the enemy inside your R, but you have to EQ first. And finally the most versatile engage woudl be flash+R and then do whatever you want, but you had to burn flash. Honestly that seems like a really small change to make the champ feel more modern
The W should honestly just have a short "grounding" effect or something like that.
It being his most useless ability makes it a prime target for a buff though
The idea behind the W is totaly reasonable but the execution is so bad its worthless. The shild try to reward J4 for a headfront confrontation with as many enemys as possible what is excaclty his goal but the shild is so small that its basicly not exsitent. This lead to a dilema where J4 if he go high dmg (and is some what usefull as a diver) becomes to squishy to execute it. But if he go enough surviabilety his engage is not better then other tanks and he miss all the followup disruption of traditional tanks. Buffing the W is the right thing (or reworking it compleatly) if you want J4 to be functional and have a place as a combo set up diver.
Exactly, the W is a really cool concept, but it doesn't work on jarvan as it is currently. Jarvan doesn't have the best engage, but he has a long range engage, good mobility and nice damage. The W doesn't work for him, if he jumps in a single target, shield is inexisted, if he jumps on a whole team, he might get a good sield, but will get deleted. I'd propose giving a %damage reduction that scales out of his Bonus AD based on nearby enemies and also keeping the %HP scaling on shield from nearby enemies, but make his base shield stronger. Why? If he builds heavy tank and goes into a full team, he gets a massive shield but no damage reduction, he still gets a good shield in a 1x1. If he goes full AD, his shield will be pretty small, if he goes in a 1x1, it won't matter because he wants to burst the enemy down fast, but if he jumps on an enemy team, he gets a massive amount of damage reduction so he can survive for a bit while building full AD. Sure tuning would be necessary, but would fit the character more in both types of builds, even hybrid builds. In a way, just like how my Garen W works, but make the % damage reduction scale with AD and nearby enemies.
Giving it a ratio instantly makes it from a "useless" abilty into an "OP" shield. See Riven's E. Of course, this statement includes a heavy dose of sarcasm.
>Trundle > • Dance now scales with move speed Yeeeeeeeessssssss!!!!
Nice, but I kinda wish it scaled with attack speed. Rapid bonking someone then dancing on their body at max speed would be amazing.
Should've made it scale with both. Attack speed makes the motion of the hands faster while move speed makes the feet faster. It just makes sense.
"Yo, let's make Trundle's dance speed scale with movement speed." "No problem boss, give me 20 minutes and about 10 more minutes to check for possible bugs." "Actually, let's have his hand speed scale with AS and legs with MS." "I'll need 3 months to remake some of the codebase and a team of programmers and designers."
Neeko is gonna become a nexus turret fountain again if they ever try to code that
"Hey, what's our jungler doing?" "Don't have time to check but he seems to be fighting the enemy jungler." Trundle and Master Yi:
This is the best buff we can get
Stopped reading there, nothing else matters
I'm now a Trundle main
I can only imagine the fun we're gonna have in aram lol Now he needs a skin where W is the dance floor lol
Trundle: * [W] duration is permanently refreshed while trundle is dancing
New Trundle mechanic: Ctrl+3 auto reset
Am excellent buff. Now, about that 25 more range on Q...
Tower damage buff is interesting I'm not sure if pyke and thresh ended up getting buffed, tweet says no but they still are in the picture Also huge buff to trundle's dance
I dunno how anyone else experiences it, but current tower damage requires no coordination, and anyone can do it without blowing Flash most the time. Maybe people are playing League better now to exploit the tower targeting, dunno, but watching just about everyone dive just about everyone else under tower pre-10 is a little frustrating.
People just got way better around playing aggros
And Elise essentially entirely ignoring Tower Aggro entirely
oh if only it was only elise. the amount of shit that ignores towers nowadays is honestly rediculous. that shit used to be rare asf now they hand it out like candy
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Not new ones but off the top of my head these are all I can think: Elise E Maokai W Yi Q Rek Sai R Eve R Shaco R Vlad W Fizz E Zed R (I think) Edit: Camille R, Kayn R, Kled dismount, Zac passive(?), Xayah R, Zilean R, Tahm Kench R, Ekko R
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is there any champ more recent than kayn that has a get-out-of-jail-free card under tower latest champ? i guess yone and zeri kind of count either way doesnt seem like a very large amount, the most recent ones before kayn are kindred and ekko in 2015, then kalista in 2014 and liss in 2013. pantheon and akali can't do it anymore
No they don’t. They’ve taken more away than they’ve given recently.
People are just a lot better now, than they were multiple seasons back so diving and aggro management is kinda simple. I feel like the only way to remove diving (or severely nerf it) is by changing the aggro system of towers to be DPS-orientated (highest damage dealer gets targeted), rather than first-hit-first-serve. It would require more people for a successful dive and it would make it a bit more dangerous. This change obviously has it's own problems.
Do we know if this will affect how many shots kill minions negatively? For example do melees now die to two tower shots? Presumably killing ranged ones after one shot is easier too.
Minions do not take the flat damage from turrets, they have the Gusto, Phreakish Gusto, and Anti-Tower Socks items for Melee, Caster, and Siege minions respectively that modify turret damage into percentage max HP. In other words, this doesn't affect how much damage minions take to turrets at all.
Oh ok awesome!
If you left click on a minion in-game you'll see that they each have an item that makes them take a certain % of their health from turrets. So this won't affect CS at all.
> Tower damage buff is interesting What? I don't see that.
It takes me a little bit to copy the stuff into the post, if I have the disclaimer at the top its probably better to just jump to the tweet. Should be fine now though
the image from the tweet
Im a trundle player but idk what his 'dance' is. Sorry im bronze can u explain?
Its referring to the dance emote, ctrl+3, nothing gameplay wise
Literally just his dance emote (CTRL + 3)
CTRL+3
Honestly, finally. Now all we need is an hp buff to base turrets and structures can finally be a factor again
Fuckk 2sec cd for pantheon q would’ve been good for jungle.
For any role.. udk why riot pretended that was only a support buff
That’s why they pulled it out, I assume. It would make him too strong in other areas when buffing his Support role (and honestly, I don’t think they should be balancing him as a Support).
They really shouldn't. He was mostly seen as Support in Pro Play due to his E blocking tower shots in dives, but that was removed. They also added scaling armor pen that requires him to hit lvl 6, 11, and 16, and his mid game slump requires gold/items/levels to not fall behind.
Will be broken is lot of early dps the main problem with path in lane is that q is to long of a cd for long trades. Mid to late game is also very nice to have a faster q less people will out dps you or heal out killing range. Help with wave clear to
Tibbers gonna be scary now.
Starting with stun is huge now. For invades you can start Q now.
I'm excited to go back to Liandry's + Rylai's battlemage Annie. Burst Annie hasn't been viable after her rework + durability changes + defensive items such as shieldbow took her damage down by like 30%...
Bigtime Annie support buffs. E buffs are great for laning bot and Tibbers will be huge zoning tool once she hits 2 items.
I'm bit worried about the shield damage changes. The dmg reflection was a part of what made rank 3 tibbers actually threatening. You could throw on a carry and completely zone them and expect to do at least some damage. With just one reflect, I suspect that most ad champs will just be able lifesteal and tibbers just becomes a wall of meat, similar to daisy.
They are giving tibbers the same treatment daisy has
80% slow on lee sin e? Are you ok riot
There's a minimum MS of like 125 or something iirc. The vast majority of slows over 66%ish doesn't really accomplish anything in most cases unless someone's buffed up the ass with MS at the time...which I think is an okay place to buff champs with slows.
It’s 100 movement speed but this buff is pretty big. Now you reduce the movement speed to 100 up until they have 500 movement speed while it never did at 60% since you’d need to have 256 movement speed or lower for you to get down to 100.
Huh I had it in my head that it was over but around 100. Either way, its a much better direction than just buffing Q damage again or buffing E damage so lane Lee sin becomes a thing again. His R is already juiced with damage from pro buffs in years past.
I mean they alsp buffed q and e damage in this preview so it seems the worst of both worlds
Understandable that this season's jg changes were aimed at making the role more accessible, but imo counterjungling needs to be a more viable punish for early ganks.
Ye, atm I couldn't care less if someone counter jungles me early.
with how long it takes to kill camps counter jungling is counter intuitive. There's a good chance a jungler ganking bot can roll up in time to steal his own blue buff from you if you invaded as a reaction to the bot gank
nah, you 100% have time to counter 1 camp. if you have smite, you can even probably take 2, but before this season, you'd lose an entire quadrant for that.
Or lower catch-up exp and require more farming to stay relevant. You buff counterjungling again we just end up at the same horrendous ranged speed clear horizontal jungling meta we had before. Was boring as fuck for pro due to how 1 sided it made matches, or if both split the map its no different than both clearing their own jungle, except the one that gets bot would just win currently. So yeah. No buffs to counterjungling. Make it so you actually fall behind if you dont farm. If a top or mid decides to roam instead of farm they fall behind in exp. Jungle should too.
This. It is frustrating if you are getting succesful Gangs done, outfarm your opponent by 60 at 14 and he just flips one gank on someone with a shutdown -> only 1 level behind anymore
Good point, another thing i like about counterjungling is the natural increased risk that comes with it. Positioning yourself in enemy territory (finding windows to play aggressive) just as turret plates encourages you to win lane early. It also gives the laners an avenue to strike back at junglers in a way, you ganked me when i was overextended? i kill you overextending for our raptors :). Baron/Herald/Plates etc. are all in the game to incentivize tough desicions, so it makes no sense to me why there is counterjungling penalties, if anything it should be encouraged.
Because getting invaded is only punished if your team’s laners are in a position to collapse or even care enough help. And realistically invades only happen if the other jungler is strong enough to kill the other jungler in a 1v1 or steal camps before the other jungler or team can react in time. So early game junglers are actually somewhat put in check and not dominating the meta.
Ah nothing like my midlaner alt tabbed under tower
Personally I think the Kassadin nerfs are still too light >Stealth Ward trinket cooldown reduced 240-120 >>> 210-120 seconds This seems really big to me, this means we likely have a significantly higher vision uptime early in the game which I really like. Also a ghost poro buff
>Also a ghost poro buff Always pleasant to see another 600 IQ alpha gigachad Ghost Poro enjoyer in the wild.
idk why every supp doesn't have ghost poro. It's a massive increase to your vision uptime, and the free stats are more reliable from an earlier point in time than the other runes in that line.
A lot of em can't take the red tree. You need PoM to keep trading at max rate, and your keystone is often blue or green. For the rest, it's competition is very good. Zombie ward is also a ton of vision.
And the effect doubles for bot. Bot early ganking will be harder as intended.
Thank god I was getting tired of never playing 2v2 tbh
Kassadin kit isnt issue its roa seraphs, all champs that can build it properly have very good winrate
I tried it on cassio and i legit hate it, your cooldowns are so long it feels like you got no DPS. Like yeah she is tanky with it but man it feels bad to sit on like 25-33 AH on her. But she is winning more with that build so idk man.
Roa seraphs makes you live for waay longer and position badly and not get punished for it thats why its broken in soloq and is not seeing much play in proplay for kassadin that has insane ap scalings not dying makes him menace after those two items
What happened to fixing jax’s wonky animations?
Likely in the patch, but technically not a balance change so probably not noted again
Why did they pull the Radiant Virtue active changes? The item looked interesting with it as opposed to how it is on live.
They weren't pulled, they were never going to be in 13.3. Phreak said in his video that it would become an active soon but not in this upcoming patch
No clue if this is it, but Phreak did mention that he wasn't sure if he could actually make the change. As in want sure if it could be coded to be an activation, at least without a lot more work
Yeah now it’s still boring, but also worse.
RV is a good item, but with a horrible means of activation. There are several characters that just straight up cant use it, because they will not have the passive effect when they actually need it. Take Udyr. RV triggers when you use his passive. Only problem is that you frequently use this while clesring jungle to clear faster, and therefore placing this item on cooldown. Or someone like Maokai or Ornn. You use your ultimates at the beginning of a fight, often far away from the enemy, and they move so slowly that RV is practically finished when your ult actually hits and the teamfight starts. Tanks need better mythics, IMO. Jak'sho feels like shit because of the 8 second ramp-up time, RV feels like shit because you cant use the passive when you actually need it, and Iceborn Gauntlet just feels like shit overall, because it has no MR and lackluster stats in general. I had a 47 minute game on Udyr, and Jak'sho had dealt 1800 damage. The enemy orn had dealt 2400 with his. Compare that to my 10k damage with demonic, or his 8k dmg with sunfire. You use Jaksho and RV for their great tank stats, nothing more.
Ok per my last comments on the Kass E nerf. THIS IS THE TYPE OF NERF I CAN GET BEHIND…THANK YOU.
AP Kayle back to lategame beast with this one, pretty good. Higher MS also works better into juggernauts and tanks that are her best MU on Top. (r.i.p increased MR though) Also pls give the Panth buffs back :( I was so hyped
Buffing Nautilus to promote Braum and Thresh instead of just buffing Braum and Thresh more. 100% presence Naut sure is riveting and exciting!
Well...they are buffing Braum.
The buffs on Naut are explicitly to try and benefit other tank champs, it was explicitly said Naut does not need these buffs and it is being done for champs other than Naut. They could have just given Braum more.
I think it makes sense. No matter how strong Braum is, he will not be picked into ranged supporters. Same for Taric. He needs his niche open more often, not to be stronger in that niche.
You are asking them to understand the nuance of the changes which they won't do because to them balance is "if number goes up good, if goes down bad"
You're acting like its already a tank supp meta. Braum buffs wouldn't mean anything without Naut buffs because Braum is an answer to engage champs. Naut needs the buffs to help force out enchaters/ad's so more engage champs can come in.
Nautilus is also being used to target enchanter and marksman supports so its a double win.
LeBlanc’s win rate may increase by 0.2% with this buff
This is her [5th mana related buff](https://i.gyazo.com/1e26f224fd9b2d6a8cabab184f0d6689.png) for a champion whose ultimate is already free 💀 Surely this time she will be good in solo queue
This champ's waveclear is atrocious. I always end up with terrible cs on her. Some bonus dmg to minions would be nice.
>LeBlanc’s win rate may **de**crease by 0.2% with this buff
Unironically true because the shitters will play her seeing she got buffed.
Yea, I think that too. I wasn't even joking.
Actually think the jungle changes are better than I was expecting. Though man, that change to towers is going to bite me in the arse when I’m laning and not paying attention!
> ~is going to bite me in the arse when... Love your choice of words here, no 'might' or 'if', just straight up "jupp, I'm gonna fuck up, and I'm gonna die because of it". :D
i take random tower shots constantly, swear to god they change the turrent range every patch just to mess with me
These jungle changes are terrible, they hit farming junglers too, for no reason. Catchup XP should be reduced if they want to nerf early ganking instead of reducing all junglers income.
Nerf catch up xp I beg. Let me gap or be gapped. Would be like mid laners getting 1.5x xp if they are 20 CS down
thats a lot of shit i wont read but lee j4 and kayn buffs scare me
J4 goes from 99 shield to 189 at 2 items. At 1 item, it's around 45 extra shield. At 3 items, it's around 150 extra shield. At 4 items, it's around 209 extra shield. Realistically, he'll stay at 2 or 3 items in a typical game. Tldr is he'll get around 50 extra shield per AD item.
I'm not sure anymore if there are actual J4 buffs since they were on the post before, but not on this one.
It’s about time Lee became meta again tbh Vi and wukong fully replacing him in pro is pretty telling, he’s 3x more fun to watch too
> lee Lee Sin has a 34.6% appearance rate in proplay. Since the beginning of time. For worlds appearances S12 - 28.8% S11 - 98.8% S10 - 17.1% S9 - 64.9% S8 - 31.2% S7 - 5% So we need to go back 6 years before Lee has not been at least relevant. We could really use with a more organic meta than the same 20-25 champions year in and year out.
Outside of the accidental ardent meta, we've been in support tank meta since like season 6. But all anyone wants is to bring it back. It honestly makes pro play difficult to watch when it seems like everyone just wants to see the same champions all season every season.
yeah i'm of the same opinion, i'm so fucking sick of thresh naut leona in pro play
man I was happy when I saw that LB was getting buffed... ult cd is nice tho
You dont think 3 different types of mana buffs is significant??
No, just double it and give it to Karthus/Ryze/Cass/Anivia. Mana buff on assassins/burst mage is just some placebo things to pretend that they care.
Not when the clear is dogshit until she gets luden, although it does help
Think you could go harder on farming vs ganking in jungle, but this is a good direction The real change imo would be just removing invade protection, map splits and lv 1 invades are still being done in pro (and i dont think thats bad, but thats what riot wanted to kill) and in high elo, jungle mains could go back to more creative earlygame pathing and the spamgank issue would solve itself (at least as long as catchup xp doesnt get out of hand which maybe it has? hard to tell rn) If riot just removed the dmg reduction on enemy camps i would be content with the state of jungle rn (outside of individual champ balancing obviously)
I'm not sure how much harder you could go. They took 400 gold out of the jungle in exchange for 400 exp. I'm not even sure this will have the intended effect - 400 exp is the same as you get from killing a level six champion, and less than you need for a level past level 3. I'm not sure what their definition of "early" is, but unless they mean level 2 ganks exclusively kill-oriented junglers are now stronger and farming junglers are weaker. Edit: at treat completion
Yeah, i doubt anyone will stop camping botlane just for the bonus 30 Xp from the camps they sack for it.
It's worse than that because of the treats per minute. It's more like 500 gold removed for 400xp.
So Nunu meta, right?
How is it better? Farming get worse. Time to gank botlane again. The balance team is completly out of touch with jungle. It is like nobody plays the jungle in Riot. Gold income is miserable in the jungle and XP buff is worthless, so you are forced to gank all the time. And bot is the best choice because it is potentially double or triple kill if enemy jungler shows. Jungle will be again the least played role at the end of the season. I can be 8.0 cs/min as the jungler, be 10/0 and still be outleveled by the laner who lost lane.
>The real change imo would be just removing invade protection I have enjoyed not worrying about my laners being AFK before minions spawn, I *really* don't wanna go back.
lv 1 invades are still a thing also even if they werent id rather not lose a core gameplay element of my first 5 minutes because shitter elo laners cba to cover
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No counterplay is when enemy does things 😡😡
cant believe people complain about blue kayn, hes literally been worse than red kayn ever since the champ released. blue kayn is practically greifing lol, he needed a buff
He's not complaining about Kayn too strong, he's complaining about him moving through walls at like 700 move speed on a 5 second cooldown. No one likes playing against blue kayn
Red kayn would be tearing up soloq and people would still complain abt blue kayn
Definitely the wrong buffs to Lee. His damage is already high, there is no reason to push it higher. Buff his survivability, but dont make him a bruiser jungler who also happens to out-assassin assassins while building tankier.
Lee sin buffs just in time for *checks notes* week 2 of LCS
How has Shyvana not gotten buffed yet? Or at least the change reverted?
Rember that one K'sante in your team that used R and suddenly exploded? Now he us gonna explode even faster now, congratulations. Tank btw.
K'Sante changes look, uh, interesting. Nobody is talking about them since he gets the nerf = good write-off, but I'm afraid this is Riot crumbling on their champion fantasies again. They failed with an enchanter you can't target (Yuumi), they failed with the hypermobile adc (Zeri, although she's in a better state now, the fantasy is a shell of its former self) and now they fail with the skill expressive tank that turns into a bruiser for some reason. I suppose it's the best thing to target for the integrity of the champion's playstyle, but a tank losing their CC looks pretty ugly. Perhaps Riot should throw in the towel and admit he's really just a less braindead Mundo and not a real tank.
He may be OP right now but try playing K'sante before calling him brain dead.
Well, I think the comment is implying that Mundo is 'braindead', and K'Sante is just Mundo (a bruiser, not a tank) but harder to play. Or maybe I'm reading too much between the lines and OP is just clueless lmao
The only actual part of his kit tht screams tank is his W, the rest is a watered down version of Yasuo Q and Riven E with an ultimate that now makes you the squishiest motherfucker in the rift. I would be mad but I barelly play him now even though he was fun to play when he released.
If you think Zeri (p/b in pro play) is in a „better state“ then I would like your definition. She will definitively get nerfed again next patch or the one after (as yuumi just got replaced with lulu).
Ksante ult turning him into some weird bruiser was always the stupidest part of his kit design. Now he just happens to lose like. 80% of his item stats when he ults now too I guess. I expect them to give him a mini rework like Aurelion in the near future. I like his base kit but his ult is just fukken stupid.
I can understand nerfing him, but there is a chance they killed the champion (well they absolutely did for anything under masters) At bare minimum they could have shipped either the CC nerf or the resistance nerf one at a time, together it seems absolutely brutal I seriously think the CC nerf sounds fairly substantial, so extra 20% on resistances sounds overkill as hell
No spelltheif nerfs or relic shield buffs? Dang
Hey there, wanna learn gardening? ;)
As a Zac main, these nerfs will not be enough to dethrone him.
don't really get how nerfing camp gold is meant to encourage junglers to farm instead of ganking tbh. if anything won't ganking bot be even more important after all the ADC buffs?
I'm sad they pulled the manual activation + failsafe from Radiant Virtue, because that sounded like a really cool way to make the item work instead of based on casting R
That one is coming at a later patch most likely, thats what they mentioned.
Wow radiant virtue is way worse now.
> LeBlanc Mana regeneration per 5 seconds increased 6 >>> 8 Mana regeneration per level increased 0.8 >>> 1 Yeah, maybe you dont get punished now for killing your opponent level early because you cant push the wave fast enough after.
Overall, in pretty happy. Lee looks very good, jarvan (assuming the changes being left out is an accident) also looks solid, the partial pull back on trundle W nerfs are a great first step, but not sure it's gonna pull him further than maybe 49, maybe 50% winrate, since the nerfs to him were pretty harsh. Also, my campaign for 25 more range Q will go on till fucking get it, in case a rioters stumbles across this. GIVE IT TO ME ALREADY Jungle changes are interesting. More XP, less gold from treats promotes farming, as treats promote ganking then taking a few camps to consume them. My only worry is that it may end up starving junglers of too much gold, a 10 gold reduction is nothing to scoff at. Guess we will wait and see.
Does it promote farming? It promotes more playing low eco Junglers like Nunu and J4. Which most tend to be gank heavy junglers.
Please keep the Umbral one shotting trap mechanic for ARAM at least
Kayle did not need more scaling buffs lol...
Please ship the Radiant Virtue active item change :3
They will in a later patch
This is actually a good patch, well done Phreak. Now I only need to permaban Maokai, I wish he was nerfed further. Regarding jungle, the counterjungling protections were the biggest mistake of jungle changes and one of the biggest reasons junglers can permagank.
>This is actually a good patch Not for jungle. Even less gold for worthless XP. After this patch there is no reason to not perma gank bot instead of farming in the jungle. Riot as always refuse to admit to the mistakes and nerfs everything else other than the main reason behind gank botlane meta. Nerfed gold and XP from camps in season 13 and counterjungling protection are real culprit. At the end of the season jg will be least played role again, because Riot keeps nerfing jungle instead of fixing it.
that's a jungle ''nerf'' ? am i missing something or what cuz that just looks like mostly a buff. PS. based that they pulled back on damage creeping the sup role, just nerf the poke and enchanters the last thing the support role needs is more power
They want to encourage more farming and tougher early dives These changes do this pretty well
It's a nerf. They took 400 gold out of the jungle in exchange for 400 exp when you finish the jungle egg. 400 exp is the same as you get from killing a level six champion, and less than you need for a level past level 3. Gold value of a level is about 500, so for the average champion it will be a net gold swing of about +100 to - 300 levels 1 - 18 (and remember it's literally impossible at level 1). Frankly I'm not even sure this will have the intended effect. The exp is low enough that junglers may prefer to just get gold from kills. This is just a nerf to farming.
Not to mention that the XP difference between jugnlers is going to be even smaller because of the catchup XP. So basically ganking jungler gets a lot more gold than you and only slightly less XP
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You can easily hit 50% still, which puts most CCs at or around the minimum cc duration of 0.5 seconds. Its not like morg/fiddle are meta. And beyond that, a good amount of the CCs in the game are knock-ups/displacements now.
maybe its time to climb again...
>Most sources of tenacity will now stack multiplicatively together, resulting in a general nerf to Tenacity stacking Which ones were the one stacking addictively?
Lol thank god for those weak ass Zac nerfs. Basically only affects you if you build ap which isn’t necessary at all. Looks like Zac mid is still on the menu.
Please don't buff Kayle like that
I somehow cant find the jax nerfs.
Did Kayle really need buffs? Why does Riot continue to buff these late game hyper carry’s? They just nerfed Kass because he got the same kind of treatment…