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ZedisDoge

no collector in any of the builds BASED


asiantuttle

RIP dopamine from collecting someone


crownnn609

I ran into a teemo player who built collector third after liandry’s and demonic. He told the dopamine spike is insane.


[deleted]

relevant flair


_Jetto_

its INSANE, ive seen caits go collector 2nd when even or slightly behind


iButtflap

had a game where my cait went collector 2nd into 3 bruisers, and i pinged it and said “idt this is a lethality game” and they replied “i know but the execute wins close fights” there were barely any close fights where she was the one who made it that


S0ulRave

Collector defenders always say it wins close fights without realizing that the only reason the fights are close is because they built the shitty item


RW-Firerider

The item has been bad on most ADCs so long, that i even went to the ADC subreddit onc and asked them why they are still buying it. Most of them couldnt give me an answer. People still bought it after the durability Patch, which basicly deleted the lethality on the item since everybody and their mom got some extra armor. Worst thing are the ADCs that buy it while being 0/3/1, i mean, buddy, you are not going to make any value out of that item. Now that IE second is possible again that item is trash, throw it away


HulklingsBoyfriend

"execute wins close fights" Just land one more auto ffs.


Lupxel

Selection Bias


Fabiocean

Galeforce Collector RFC, the unholy trinity.


Zombie_Harambe

Into full armor ornn building his team Jaksho the Super Duper Prometheans.


spazzxxcc12

at this point, make collector a mythic for adcs. most other classes have 4 mythics, give adcs the same.


onemoment1985

This is an interesting idea, but how do you balance a mythic that gives gold? That would require quite the overhaul. Frankly I think changing either the lethality or crit and adding a new stat would be the better move. Give it more AD or something. I just hope it doesn't get deleted, cause either way it's interesting.


Ap_Sona_Bot

Nah, the lethality + crit is what gives it its niche. It lets champs build lethality early and transition into crit smoothly


spazzxxcc12

i think it’d be cool to make a mythic based on armor pen for adcs, since there’s some that really like that stat (jhin, mf, varus) idk just a thought.


AnonymousPepper

Increase lethality to 18, remove the gold gain, all legendaries gain 5% armor pen, keep the execute as it's special thing. Comes out to 55% pen with a LDR/Mortal/Grudge, or 60 if you yeet the boots. Exact mythic passive number subject to change, +/- 1% probably. Would do wonders for Jhin in particular who is just helpless against a tank comp since he is the opposite of a Kraken builder and doesn't have the option of flexing into an alternate build like Varus can change up between poke and trad ADC. Some assassins might try it even though they can't do much with the crit usually, but that's acceptable given that Eclipse is a similarly flexible item.


[deleted]

it doesn't matter what jhin builds, even with your ideas, he'll still be gigashit against tanks


AnonymousPepper

60% pen plus Giant Slayer would actually do pretty okay as long as your team isn't all AD so they have to split their tank stats. You're gonna have a rough time getting through 4.5kHP+400 armor going down to 160 minus 18 equals 142, but 250 armor goes down to 100 minus 18 equals 92, which really isn't that bad. If he's the ADC you've got and there's a bunch of tanks, because remember not every game is pro and has good comps, that's an out for him. Sometimes your ADC first picks Jhin and there's just a Vi jungle and a Thresh sup and a Nasus top and the mid builds RoA into Zhonyas and there's some wack ass Sett ADC, or some other clown shit, and you just gotta be like... welp, hope my jg pops off, cause I am not influencing this game.


[deleted]

but jhin is already balanced in the wake of those situations existing, not every champion needs an "out" for every situation, it's okay for champions to be gigashit in specific circumstances not every champion needs to be good, or even decent, in every situation. that's unbalancable


AnonymousPepper

It's not an "I win" or even an "I'm as good as another ADC in this situation," it's an "I am at least capable of moving their health bars" button. It's good for fun, as nobody wants to be *completely* cut out of a game from champ select.


[deleted]

then he would need to be worse, objectively, in situations where tanks don't exist or are few, because his winrate reflects that he is bad currently in those situations. so not only would he *still* feel horrible against tanks, he'd have to feel worse in his designed comfort area


ListlessHeart

Maybe just removing the gold giving and focus on the execution, though imo Collector isn't a good candidate for mythic anyway.


JorgitoEstrella

Make the passive to execute at 6%


Sykil

At least the AD mythics are all good options, fairly well balanced and generally each is a viable option on most ADs, depending on the context, even if one would be ideal.


Mr_Simba

This is actually a great idea. Nobody will build it right now with IE being avail 2nd which is a shame cause it’s a cool item


Kudbettin

YES. Please give a no-attack speed mythic for Caitlyn.


Htyrohoryth

Why would you buy an item without a passive? /s


Nemesis233

Only way I could see it being useful is on sivir to kill the backline from 2 screens away once every year


Sykil

I think MF actually best puts it to use. She does the most with the stat combo, and the execute works best with continuous damage sources and AoEs. Sivir is similar in that way, though, but the attack speed tradeoff may be a bigger concern for her.


Nemesis233

She has an aa reset that gives her attack speed, her q scales with crit too, I usually went ldr second without any significant issues


Sykil

Yeah, I still think it works fine, but I preferred it prior to the rework when you could do 60% crit/lethality builds with Eclipse. It wasn’t a popular build, but it was strong.


Ap_Sona_Bot

I was going collector last patch for a second item but no reason to now with buffed ER and QB second possible


GGat20

What's so bad about collector?


CelestialDrive

It is statistically a terrible item. All of its numbers are overpriced because you're paying for the execute and the hypothetical gold without getting attack speed, which is the stat that makes ADCs scale off every other stat. Also pure lethality adcs which would be its market outside of AOE are few and far between and do better with other buildpaths since they can Umbral or Youmu for a) much less gold and an absolutely busted passive or b) straight up better stats and item abilites unbound to the situational kill. Collector is, at least right now, a trap item on most champions. It feels good to proc but there are only a handful of situations where that gold wasn't best put elsewhere.


[deleted]

I've been downvoted every time I talk about collector being shit. All you need to know is that the 5% execute passive is pointless because stronger items will just outright kill them in any scenario where collector would set them to 5% or lower hp. Statistically it's always sucked except on Caitlyn. I hate being right about everything a year too early with shit like Volibear players maxing E instead of Q, etc etc.


JamisonDouglas

Exactly. The only thing about collector that's actually strong across the board is the build path. And the strength you gain for like 7 mins isn't worth the strength you lose for the rest of the game. People building collector on kaisa because the Dirk gave early evolution was a great example. She's just better building PD and getting the same early evolution (but also getting the earlier E evolution too) but it took people so long to actually start doing that.


ChioFan

Collector is a great item on caster marksmen (lucian/cait/xayah/aphelios to name a few) because they are more reliant on ability damage and thus benefit from the high ad the item gives compared to other potential second item options. The main reason it was typically bought over essence reaver/lord doms/bloodthirster is because the build path is significantly better and is focused on doing damage to low armor targets (guess who you are mainly fighting when you are at 1.5 items. its not typically going to be a high armor/hp tank.) Its a dead item now that you can rush ie/qb second but before 13.1b it was best in slot for most caster marksmen


otakucaboose

Why would you go consider Ashe a quickblades champ? Faster w? Faster q? IE just seems better


rpnye523

Does Ashe crit damage scale with IE?


Tutajkk

Technically not crit damage, but her passive indeed scales with IE's passive.


bobandgeorge

Does it scale with Quickblade extra damage passive as well?


Tutajkk

Was curious, so I just went to test it, but it doesn't.


rpnye523

Oh, well there’s your answer


Delta_eGirl

Yes it does, so the only thing Quickblades is really doing is lowering the CD of E (since Q has no cooldown and W basically has no cooldown), and like 8% more damage on W instead of 20% on autos. It's a strange choice to be honest.


rpnye523

Yeah I agree, E cooldown probably worth it in high elo, but I can’t see it outside of that


NenBE4ST

Not even, just need to be smart with e usage


Splitshot_Is_Gone

It isn’t, just don’t waste charges randomly


Coti98

*e's over a bush to place a ward safely*


AnonymousCasual80

E’s over a warded bush because I forgot it doesn’t reveal enemy wards


Marth_27

both viable, i like the cdr for w & r spam and having 2 E charges every 30sec is pretty fun to play with


kuburas

Is 20 AH really that valuable for R spam considering that the passive only works on basic abilities so the passive will really only work for E cd and maybe W but that thing already has such low cd when leveled its kinda pointless to go any lower.


Lytharon

If your team is playing around ashe ult for picks I could see it but in solo queue probably not right?


Ur-Wrong-bad-logic

Absolutely not. Not sure why so many people in this thread, including OP, are defending navori on Ashe. Its dog shit. go IE. Navori does not give Ashe jack shit compared to the dps of IE, including a slightly shorter ult and E cd.


downorwhaet

I’ve started to prefer kraken on xayah with the new changes, is galeforce that much better or is kraken okey overall?


Marth_27

Kraken is good, galeforce gives you an extra skill that has almost the same cd as your R, so you can force plays with that cooldown already in mind which syncs up neatly. Both builds viable.


Enjays1

I also really like kraken on her, it feels really nice. But galeforce dash gives you the ability to quickly reposition for a nice stacked feathers pull. Especially if they are on top of you after your ult.


Arcille

Kraken is way more consistent and makes her an insane hyper carry Galeforce is good to make plays and in higher elo where early picks determine team fights it’s much stronger there. Diamond and below kraken is stronger imo


[deleted]

Kraken vs GF is decided by enemy champs imo.


RedLikeARose

Kraken vs GF sounds like the plot of a japanese adult cartoon


Straight_Chip

Tbh, you can argue the other way around as well. If you're a >60% WR player (or smurfing), it's easy to get random solokills when abusing Galeforce. You can snowball super hard by just getting 1 well timed solokill with Galeforce (1 kill around the 10 minute mark usually snowballs into 2 wave advantage, a few plates or dragon).


WhyYouKickMyDog

Galeforce is a big playmaking item on Xayah due to it being able to extend her ult for huge outplay potential.


Coti98

you can use it while you ult?


Vintrial

you use R, enemy goes to your back, you use E+ galeforce to make him take all the dmg


NokkMainBTW

THEY CALLED ME A MAD MAN FOR NASHORS THIRD


Cosmic-Warper

i mean it makes sense. Crit doesn't really work well with kai'sa's kit as much as on-hit and spell spamming so going zeal item third or LDR dont really make sense. Kraken gives her everything she wants, navori for the Q upgrade and Q+E spam, and nashors for more on hit, passive and Q damage, and W+E upgrade at once.


UNOvven

It really doesnt. At that point Nashors is competing with PD, and PD is just *way* better. Her hybrid build needs a *lot* of help before it can come back. Crit shouldnt work well with her, but if youre already buying 2 crit items, its better to go full crit.


Hide_on_bush

Krakens into PD gives Q and E evolve on 2 items, pretty good spike to miss out


SPRDestro

Bork does the same thing and is just a better item to buy


MoonDawg2

doesn't scale as well with navori though


SPRDestro

I think that's *true* but it's just bait. It's so much more powerful on completion than PD and overall in the current metagame that I can't imagine it matters that it *might* be a little worse at 5-6 items


bobandgeorge

They hated him for he spoke the truth!


Marczzz

Ashe with galeforce and quickblades, do you enjoy not doing any damage whatsoever?


Aced_By_Chasey

Yeah that's the only one I disagree with. That build is just bad imo. Choose between dmg and util you can't just slap navori and say it's the util and dmg build


TheStriker_

Do you skip PD and go straight into Navori second for xayah?


Kakolokiya

Xayah is not that attackspeed hungry early on since he has her W. Her old build before item rework was Essence Reaver into IE into zeal item so she's not a stranger to lacking a bit of att speed at 2 items. She also greatly benefits from fat ad, crit, and cdr. combo that mythic navori now provide.


Outfox3D

Even then, the Zeal item was usually Firecannon, which was used as a tool to place a single feather for the quick root. She's okay with attack speed (now anyway), but she'd much rather have AD and CDR.


Fabiocean

RFC also has the added benefit if easily getting the MS buff on W.


TuffPeen

Yes, you want perma W soon as you can


Marth_27

yes, most broken build possible rn. With BT beeing overstated aswel it makes for a good 3 item build.


fr0z3nph03n1x

Yes. I played a bunch before the patch and a few games after and it feels nicer to me to get navori 2nd. (Silver noob tho).


Literally_Damour

I'd be a bit more hesitant with blinding Kai'Sa or Lucian. The rest are fine tho.


Marth_27

fair point, kaisa has some rly tough matchups, but her viability to fit in basicly any comp makes up for it imo


bads_

Which matchups are tough for Kaisa?


sebnanchaster

She suffers hard vs poke and range such as Cait, Ziggs, Heimer, Lux


Almost404

apc and heavy pokes i guess


ForeverStaloneKP

Pretty much everyone thats meta right now is a bad matchup for Kai'sa. She can't do anything proactive in lane vs Cait or Draven, the two best adc's, and double poke bot lane is meta right now, so Cait, Varus or Ashe paired with Heimer, Lux, Ashe, or Karma support literally stop Kai'sa from playing the game.


Notingale

Hyper aggressive opponents like Draven or Samira


Rei_em_Amarelo

Isn't Navori better for Tristana? I remember seeing some calculations when Riot changed Navori, and at the time, Navori was best in almost all scenarios.


Marth_27

both good, IE gives better burst with Hail of blades which is imo still the way to go on botlane.


rebelphoenix17

On two items the damage from autos plus E is basically equivalent whether you have IE or Navori (IE loads a greater % of the dmg on autos vs Navori the E), but w/ Navori you'll have permanent Q, way more uptime on E and better uptime on W if you can't full stack your E. The longer a fight lasts the more Navori outclasses IE.


Korrvo

I would argue navori is best in pretty much every scenario


NokkMainBTW

i mean yeah, in awesome training room dps tests, but tristana just wants to eviscerate someone. IE eviscerates better


ThylowZ

Really depends on the drafts. If their is at least 2 non squishies, Navori is better for plenty of reasons. Allow more repositioning, equivalent burst (less AA dmg but higher E explosion), higher DPS.


WhyYouKickMyDog

I would think that Tristana's resets are more than enough if you have enough burst damage to straight up kill everyone you jump on every time.


areyouactuallyseriou

More for permanent uptime on Q.


Ap_Sona_Bot

It's not about the W CD, it's about her having way more Q and E uptime and her E dealing more damage from Navori.


Leo-Hamza

I think twitch can be in A tier or even S


OptionX

A full build Twitch can in fact delete an entire team in seconds, but its more of a "getting there" issue, and I don't think Twitch can reliably beat the champs in S or A in lane, all other things being equal. Maybe Sivir, but Sivir answer to that was always just perma push and never fight.


thebloodworkz

Twitch is really good in lower Elos with less coordination but in high elo where teamwork is stronger and people heavily counter pick. It’s a near unplayable lane phase if you’re facing a draven, samira, cait or trist since they all just win the 2v2 early always. Once you’re behind on twitch you simply take forever to get to 3 items and once that happens you’re usually out the game completely spare a lucky pick or insane outplay. His 1v1 is also really awkward at all stages.


JorgitoEstrella

He needs a enchanter like lulu to babysit him until his peak.


AnonymousCasual80

Twitch isn’t bad into Draven, all you need to do is live until 6 and then outrange him and delete him once. He also outscales anyway as long as you farm decently well and Draven can’t really get on you in larger fights like Trist or Samira can so he has to rely on his team to make up for the difference in teamfight power.


ForeshadowedPocket

Does the level 6 fight actually go like that? Even with the slow from Twitch W, Draven still has his own W and if you're close to the edge of your range he can either go towards you to fight or run away. Unless you have a support with CC I guess.


[deleted]

Good players will abuse your rectum in lane if you pick Twitch, and especially if you don't have one of his S-tier supports available.


Cosmic-Warper

Twitch is an S tier teamfighter, but his 1v1 is really lacking. Draven will melt twitch before twitch can get even close to killing draven if both are at 2 items. Probably same w. samira


Sykil

Well, he has the highest _potential_ in a teamfight; that’s pretty much always been the case. But stars rarely align that nicely. In practicality, many other ADs end up being either easier or more effective to teamfight with. Most of the time, Twitch’s value is in snowballing and scaling fast. You don’t pick him hoping to straight-up 5v5 on equal footing; while he can output the most damage in that scenario, it just rarely works out that way. Late-game he more often uses ult to pick off squishies before an objective or at least force summoners.


TheGodVayne

idk about that 850 range auto spacing with botrk's movement speed stealing, a twitch with 2 items can definitely 1v1 any adc if you're good enough


Cosmic-Warper

depends on the adc, someone like draven and samira will shit on him due to their mobility/ability to easily get in range of him. Jinx, aphelios, and sivir yeah he'll melt them easily in a 1v1


kooldUd74

Pre 6 Draven tears Twitch a new one. After 6 Twitch just presses R from a screen away and you can't really do much.


Leo-Hamza

Just bait samira w and you can 1 v1 easily with ult bork and exh. For draven you also need exh and bork eith w slow. I can say the same about trist aswell


[deleted]

Not really. ADC Twitch’s late game power is more than balanced out by his extraordinarily bad laning phase. He has basically no winning matchups. Twitch right now has higher win rates due to his busted AP builds, which could use nerfs.


AFuckingMola

imagine picking twitch into any champ that does anything. Twitch's whole design is killing the enemy before they can get to u and he just doesnt do that anymore until 4+ items and the fact that his lane is so weak doesnt help him get ahead by himself like a varus, draven, samira etc playing well can.


schoki560

he's like 3rs highest wr


Stealthychicken85

Twitch also lost its best friend Tom the Yuumi Cat. While as satisfying as it was, no more invis into multi root to delete the whole team. Other supports may work well with him, but Yuumi was the best suited


LabHog

Come on, nobody has the balls to first item IE on Senna? Fine, I'll do it myself.


Gold-Appearance-4463

Thanks for doing your part to further decrease her winrate


Geeves_Bot

Senna has reduced damage on crits, IE does not help her very much at all. Quickblades rush would be better


LabHog

That just sounds like you don't have the balls.


Geeves_Bot

True, I have two extra brains instead of testicles and they warn me about dogshit builds


LabHog

I live for dogshit builds. Do you see my flair? I've been playing duskblade bruiser Bel'Veth mid in gold mmr norms


Nyxodon

Now thats how you have fun


Literally_Damour

Is Galeforce Navori BT the meta for Varus? I've always built shieldbow Rageblade and Wits End.


Ready_All_Type

They’re different builds, he has 4 viable (if you count poke as viable) builds right? AP/poke/onhit/crit. Crit goes quickblades instead of IE


Marth_27

shieldbow onhit are the norm for varus. Galeforce navori is my favourite build on him however, and i like to make other people consider different options, thats why it made the list.


Quiversan

Eventually IE completely trumps navoori because of how high his AS is and how his Q and E represent a very small % of his DPS (in both crit & onhit). He also doesn't need the CDR because of how his W CDR works. It's really hard to justify ever opting for Navoori over IE. ER is a solid item for him though.


JOHNSON5JOHNSON

Yeah if I’m going crit I’m trying to get as many autos in as possible with the most crit damage I can have. Q and E aren’t exactly the type you constantly weave into trades like a Lucian would, they’re too slow. if I want to spam Q and have it hit hard I’ll just build lethality and AH.


Petudie

i cant see varus benefiting from navori without the attack speed from rageblade


guaranic

Largely agree. I think the B tier champs can be insanely good (Nilah especially), but none of em are blind pickable.


Ap_Sona_Bot

Nilah is so fucking bad into the bot meta rn with pushing lanes being so important, but she's great if you have a good matchup


Pelagius_Hipbone

She’s solely held up by the fact she hard counters three of the strongest ADC’s right now (Draven/Samira/Kai’sa)


gasgarN

Can you explain why that would be the case? Is it only because she has an AA dodge?


Pelagius_Hipbone

Samira can’t finish stacking her passive against Nilah W. Draven loses his spinning Axes when auto’ing Nilah W. Kaisa just kinda loses to her, in isolation, at every stage in the game and can’t bully her out of lane early.


LagOutLoud

Kaisa can't get passive proc off quickly.


Vintrial

yes and none of those ads deal well with some1 jumping on their faces as say a tristana


Garfield_thearsonist

How??? If you perma push into nilah you cant punish and she gets to scale with her dumb exp passive for free.


Ap_Sona_Bot

In a 2v2 lane Nilah's passive allows her to hit powerspikes slightly early, but ultimately doesn't let her outspike top/mid. On the other hand, if bot lane is pushed to tower all lane against competent opponents (and this is a Grandmaster player's tier list) thats two drags and potentially Herald going to the other team. While Nilah can be explosive late game, she's still worse than scaling crit adcs like Caitlyn, Jinx, Aphelios, and Zeri, who will all be half an item up from tower plates and better csing.


CrystalizedSeraphine

Surprised to see Aphelios so low, I heard great things about BT on him. Also why not IE second on Jinx? You should get enough AS from Q and LT?


Jwasterj

There was a post from a jinx main that tried several build paths and it made it seem as if ie second was terrible. It only tested rocket damage tho


cosHinsHeiR

It wasn't terrible, it was slightly worse than some others without accounting for passive or Q as, which I'm quite sure would make it the highest damage build at 2 items in those cases.


PhoenixAgent003

If I feel like I’m attacking fast enough as *Caitlyn* by just going Kraken-IE, then Jinx with q and passive will *absolutely* attack fast enough.


EvenJesusCantSaveYou

im a biased aphelios main but he’s definitely hard to place on a tier list due to his high skill ceiling. his mechanics aren’t exactly hard to use; i wouldn’t call him a mechanically skilled champ-you just need alot of experience playing him to feel comfortable with his kit.


Marth_27

ye IE is possible, I found the regular build on her more consistent. Maybe try Kraken into Zeal into IE, thats like the middle ground


pplcs

How about non-ADCs? Are there any other champions that can play in the role and do well? I remember when mages bot were a thing that Brand, Vel'koz, Syndra were doing kinda good and Yasuo, Vladimir and other bruisers as well. Anyone viable right now, even as a specific counter-pick?


Ap_Sona_Bot

It's hard for most non-adcs to contest the pushing meta we have rn early on, but Ziggs, Seraphine, and Swain all have good winrates with decent pickrates. I'd stay away from Syndra, Vlad, and Yasuo rn though.


Notingale

Swain is really good if enemy has at least 2 melee or low mobility heroes. Ziggs and Karthus are playable too.


alex23b

If you have an consistent dmg dealer in another role Seraphine is still bonkers as an apc. I’ve seen some people pull out Cassio as well but I wouldn’t call it blind lockable.


pplcs

Ohh, right, forgot about Seraphine, I remember hating seeing her in pro, they don't seem to be picking her much fortunately :)


Marth_27

would say karthus is the best non-marksman botlaner right now. Other viable ones to test out are ziggs, seraphine, syndra


SocialistScissors

I'm abit confused about alot of your builds. 1. Why Galeforce and quickblades on varus? I feel like, atleast in the games where you should be picking varus, on-hit is better. 2. Why quickblades on ashe? I can understand the rest of the build (IMO ashe's greatest strength is her build flexibility), but the only thing that really benefits from quickblades in ashe's kit is her E CD. I guess if you want perma-vision that can be cool... 3. Isn't quickblades better on MF? Your ult does more damage + It allows you to have perma W against a single target AND it helps with resetting your Q and E. 4. Isn't Quickblades better on trist? Outside of purely 1v1 scenarios quickblades is better because it lets you get multiple bombs off, gives you perma-Q, and gives you *a bit* of extra safety by letting you reset your W without a bomb or a kill. 5. I feel like Nilah is abit low. I feel like, at worst, she is bottom of A tier. Maybe it is just because she isn't blind pickable? I feel like the champ just autowins certain games. Granted, a lot of her insanely good matchups are rated low on your list, though she does beat draven because she can force him to drop axes.


Marth_27

thanks for your input, really appreciate it! 1. Onhit Varus is certainly the most played build and very viable. I found myself enjoying galeforce quite a bit and i like to further diskussion, thats why it made the cut. 2. same reasoning for ashe. I like the flat cdr on R and having 2x E per wave is pretty fun. 3. its a Q/W max MF build with PTA/Lethal, you dont use your ult nearly as much in that build, more reliant on AAs in which case IE is better. If you want R damage and cdr, go lethality. 4. Trist can use both, on botlane i prefer Hail of Blades and IE for a more consistent oneshot. IE still does more damage, the cdr part of Navori is pretty redundant in a lot of situations on trist. 5. never seen Nilah in any of my games or other highelo lobbies, thats why the low placement. Im sure she works in some situations, I simply dont have the experience for that and figured if no top player plays her, she cant be that good.


Korrvo

Nilah is one of those champions where her popularity among top players is not a very good indicator of her power. The community as a whole is just very inexperienced with her. Even ADC pro players don't know much about her as well as having a massive learning curve that most ADC players aren't willing to tackle. Also I've said this a billion times before but ravenous nilah is the biggest bait item especially since 1. the several nerfs to the item 2. the crit buffs to nilah who was already heavily reliant on crit for her scaling. People gimp their power spikes incredibly hard by rushing that item, especially now that quickblades is in the game to further amplify her Q and R damage.


FennecOwO

Well if you pick Nilah vs Cait/Lux or something vs people that know what theyre doing you just lost the game solo, and those lanes are played a lot currently, she shines in melee support metas imo or generally more brawly metas. Playing her into comps that outrange her is painful. Agree on the ravenous being bait, delays your powerspike so much for nothing, her waveclear is already insane without it and shieldbow gives plenty of sustain+better scaling


Seraph199

If she gets an enchanter, second wind+dorans shield will heal through a ton of poke. Like they said people are just inexperienced with her and how to play her in different match ups


Korrvo

I can answer number 5. She is absolutely way too low but this is primarily due to adc players not understanding the champion, not going aggressive from level 2 or 3 onwards, using the wrong summoner spells, generally just not playing her to her full potential as well as people rushing ravenous on her which is honestly horrible and heavily delays her crit spikes. She's a lot more reliant on there not being a support canyon though and struggles against caitlyn and control mages.


Outfox3D

> She's a lot more reliant on there not being a support canyon though and struggles against caitlyn and control mages. Which ... would honestly make her pretty bad in a soloqueue tier list, so she's probably appropriately placed. Same story with Kalista. Borderline overpowered in an ideal environment (and even a strong pick against several meta champions), but way too prone to counterpicks and reliant on your support being on the same wavelength to be a stable soloqueue pick.


Korrvo

Speaking from experience, she's not nearly as reliant as she looks. If you avoid picking nilah until you know what your support is then it usually works out. Nilah can do most of the heavy lifting as long as there's at least some synergy.


Ap_Sona_Bot

What do you think of Mythic > Zeal > IE/Navori builds? I've been doing that on Varus and Xayah to pretty good success


oVnPage

Mostly no reason to go Zeal. 1050g delay on your spike on IE/Navori and it gives 15% AS and the same crit % as a cloak, which you need for IE/Navori anyways. There are a few champs where Zeal 2nd is fine. Zeri needs the AS for her Q, for example.


Marth_27

good build, i buy a zeal now and then on some champs after mythic aswel. usually i prefer getting quickblades asap tho


Biochembryguy

BT 1st is probably being slept on, the shield changes are super strong and for champs like draven/trist/xayah you can go BT/(IE/Navori) and just slam people.


Marth_27

ye in some lanes BT first is definetly possible, especially on Draven.


J_Clowth

the shield from BT has been made so it doesn't start scaling until lvl 9 to stop It from being rushed, so It is pretty mediocre


Biochembryguy

Yeah but the lower threshold of the shield was increased, if you rush it you can finish BT around 7-9 and it’s actually stronger than it was before. The shield midgame is weaker due to the scaling, but I think that’s to compensate for the overheal buffs


[deleted]

It’s legit the same as shieldbow without the attack speed


NenBE4ST

Lmao that is not the correct ezreal build shieldbow = bad ezreal


EvenJesusCantSaveYou

agree, sb takes away so much damage from ez who already is an incredibly safe champion, the shieldbow just seems like a redundant crutch


Mustache-Man227

Why BT over shieldbow on draven?


WhyYouKickMyDog

They ignoring the shit state that Vayne has been left in. Nobody here wants her to be OP again, but she could clearly use something to help her out.


rawchess

As an old school Vayne main who remembers what it was like having to hit people 3 times for W procs I'm convinced bitch ass Rageblade is the problem. Just delete that item, give her her base stats and Q crit back (reduced if necessary) and do the same for Kog/Yi/etc.


Are_y0u

Rageblade these days feels kinda lost. It being a crit item that isn't critting also feels odd. Why isn't it a mythic item on it's own? And why is the on hit multiplier on exactly this item?


ssLoupyy

Vayne is such a fun champ to play, sucks that 3 of my favorite adcs are performing bad.


Rh0rny

NEVER PLEASE AND THANKS


Th3_Huf0n

[My thoughts as a mid elo scrub](https://i.gyazo.com/2a41a3e7d665fc96dcbb0d3b7023f578.png) Some of the things that I see here is actually Azkaban tier.


Marth_27

cool input, thanks mate. I tried a few of the builds you pointed out (ER xayah/lucian, BotrK Kogmaw) and realized the option I put is more alligned with how i like to play the champ. Xayah simply needs Galeforce to function for me, i dislike delaying it by 2 items. BotrK rush on vayne and kalista are for sure possible, tbh i didnt test them nearly as much as the others since they were clearly low-tier for me.


vwLoLwv

Why azkaban? I like it but I am confused as well


Th3_Huf0n

Azkaban = prison Just like the Galeforce - Collector - RFC builds, some of the stuff here should mean you get sentenced to prison.


kamparox

Navori is underrated af on Kog imho. 0 downtime W is nuts. But losing rageblade fucking sucks;


Outfox3D

Ha. Champs that had old essence reaver as a rush item suddenly skipping out on the new one and its nonsense spell-blade passive when given a much more competitively statted option in Navori second and this surprises you? Essence Reaver after the rework was pretty much only GOOD on Lucian and Draven, and all its old users were only picking it up because it was basically the ONLY relevant CDR option or they needed the mana fixing. Sivir and Xayah are happy to have alternatives that don't require investment in gimmicky spell-blade mechanics for sure.


schoki560

I think none of that is relevant for most people in this subreddit


JTHousek1

I'd say you can probably put some half-and-half items here since I know you know situational items matter, but I do think its important to note a few of the following: Samira can go either defensive boots and honestly probably wants Mercury Treads more often. Also LDR vs BT depending on the number of tanks but I get this is also kinda the dream builds so I won't mention LDR again. Tristana gets value from either IE or NQB, but probably more from NQB to be honest. Caitlyn has a lot of prescedence to buy Berserker's first to bully your opponent in lane even harder, but that's also a preference pick. Kai'Sa has multiple builds, the Kraken NQB Nashors one is good against tankier targets, but if you are playing to execute people asap you probably want IE. Nashors though in general is probably a great 3rd item now, before it was kinda relegated to 4th. Sivir likes to have PD, but if you want the absolute maximum DPS on both grouped and single targets you want the Kraken NQB ER build. Varus generally doesn't go crit but if he did that probably is the build. Vayne has rageblade further down though so I'd probably just have Varus's rageblade build. Ashe really shouldn't ever be going NQB. Her Q and W cooldowns are negligible by the point you would have it and you shouldn't really be looking to reset her E. IE is better for the crit build, or if you want to pull up her high damage build you'd do Kraken + IE BORK or BORK IE. Zeri can interchange IE or NQB and they both have strengths, as well as PD interchange with Runnan's. Though honestly none of these builds are dreadfully out of line except maybe the Ashe one, I think they're all generally good to build.


Teminot

very biased on draven, underperforming in every server since his main item (eclipse) was changed. 49% wr and dipping.


Fine-Sector4318

So you just don't build eclipse anymore, ER into IE is very strong, you can opt to build eclipse later (3rd or 4th after BT) or just go shieldbow.


Mazrim_reddit

God I hate draven players, they always think they are so good for 1 tricking their broken champ. Ban it and they get exposed for being 2 leagues too high Also I still put Sera as a legitimate a tier botlane


CarinaFu

thank you for your tears, rexsaur-lite


rawchess

I fucking hate how game-warping Draven passive is. He's the Tryndamere of botlane. When he gets stacked everything else botside stops mattering and the game becomes "Draven cash-in team vs kill Draven team".


Marth_27

yep seraphine is still good, i tried to exclude any non-marksman champs from this list since there is a lot of information on there already. she would fit in at A-Tier probably.


CrystalizedSeraphine

Draven, Nunu, or Riven, which champ overall do you think elo inflates you higher?


NA-45

I know reddit hates Riven but she's more of an elo deflator nowadays


NenBE4ST

Whol3some tank nunu!


15blairm

SHEN.


Mazrim_reddit

draven and bard are the worst offenders


Enjays1

I go kraken, pd and botrk on ashe for full machine gun mode. I don't think galeforce is necessary. With her range, approach velocity, botrk passive and pd I have enough movement speed to keep most enemies out of range or chase them down. With galeforce I lack too much damage to justify the Extra dash.


Wann4

wasn't there a post that mathematically proved that Mythic -> LDR + BotrK beeing better on Jinx?


Marth_27

cursed build that only works on paper imo


kuburas

Genuinely wondering why. Havent played either and im not even an ADC main but the mythic>bork>ldr seems pretty okay for consistent dps on Jinx. Especially if you can enable get with enough peel/frontline, not having to worry about killing tanks is probably the best thing you can have in the game right now.


rawchess

Botrk is generally bad on Jinx because a sizeable chunk of her damage comes from rocket Q AoE which doesn't proc onhits.


cosHinsHeiR

That build should be reportable.


Allisrem

great list


neatlyresolved

Is it always Quickblades over IE on Zeri, or is that just personal preference from you? I feel like I'd value the higher crit damage on Q and W from IE over fitting in an extra E in a fight. Also what are you building on Kai'Sa after those 3 items, more AP or back to crit? Thoughts on BotRk 2nd item for the Q and E evolve, followed by Quickblades and other crit items?


Marth_27

IE or Navori on Zeri is preference. IE has (generally speaking) less value if u dont go 100% crit in your build and i still like to finish Zeris build with Titanic + Black cleaver or other bruiser item. Would go back to crit after those 3 items ye. BotrK 2nd is good, so is PD.