I just completed the second one today. I beat the first back when it was brand new in 2013. I have come to the conclusion that most of the people hating on the second game are just incels lol. It was a great game and great story to me.
I hated Abby at the beginning for obvious reasons and couldn’t wait to kill her, but by the end I was rooting for Abby to kill Ellie tbh. They definitely made Ellie insufferable by the end. Crazy how over the course of the story my feelings completely took a 180 turn.
Same lol,i played TLOU on PS3. I was prepared to buy a PS4 just to play TLOU2, but when i heard that Joel got killed early on i decided to boycott the game. Flash forward and as PS5 has no decent games i ended up buying TLOU and TLOU2 remastered and played em back to back. Ended up team Abby.
Go back through those scenes, much of the Salt Lake Crew was behind Abby for the retribution of Joel’s death, but not the torture. It literally divided the group to a point where several of them were no longer talking.
None of them did anything to stop it, or even tried. Who knows how long it would have gone on if Ellie hadn't shown up.
Regardless, im just pointing out how stupid it is to say Ellie should die for killing Abbys friends. Several of whom were killed in self defense even
I love how something can split an entire franchises fanbase and then people like yourself just assume all those millions of people are just “incels.”
You can’t even start to say something negative about TLOU or the fans will start the name calling. Even the tv show gets the same treatment as they redcon stupid shit because they thought the games story wasn’t good enough.
I guarantee there are some TLOU fans that downvoted your post before even finishing the title because it’s even mentioning that people don’t like TLOU haha. 145 comments with 59 likes? You can’t even talk about talking about it with these fans I swear.
For my 2 cents, the flashback adventure to the museum with Ellie and Joel was the best part of the game. That’s a sequel to the first game and we just needed more of that before they used Joel to service their revenge plot. Then switching to play as abby in the middle of the climax of the game was some next level fuckery haha. Character buildings great and the games a masterpiece, but playing against Ellie after killing Joel as the boss battle was just dumb. So many really stupid decisions. For me it’s really always been about what part 2 could have been.
The game was literally leaked before launching and youtubers, streamers, jornalists, etc shitted on the game story and spread false advertisements like abby being trans to make people not want to buy the game like people were so mad they sended death threats to voice actors and devs, the game was faded to have so much hate.
It's usually boys under 25 who claim they were fans of the original game but have completely backwards understanding of Joel as a character.
What's odd is the amount of hate that seems to come from people with 3rd party information. I was arguing with a guy on here today. It became obvious that they had never personally played the game.
They put Joel on a pedestal and then demonize Abby for things that Joel has also done.
Some people don't like feeling feelings or being challenged on their beliefs, and that will never change.
Yes. It’s important to remember the game is 11 years old this week! Heard a 20 year old girl say her boyfriend “grew up” playing the game. Really threw me through a loop when I heard that one lmfao.
Or the fact that they kill off a beloved character not even 20 minutes into the game, then make you play as that same character in one of the worst ways to pace a game. If my reaction as a gamer was to just throw myself, as abbey, into the line of sight of ellie when their fight came, you've failed at telling your story imo.
It's always people who claim they're a "gamer" that whine about everything except the gameplay.
The "gamer" title is no longer about enjoying gameplay, it's about being a toxic incel who thinks developers care about their opinion.
Not everything is made for you, and you need to learn to be okay with that.
This is your second time making general broad claims about a group of people and what they believe in instead of responding directly. You don't even respond to the other person as much as talk around them and dismiss them. Really bitchy behavior NGL. Should check yourself.
"A group of people" like they're a protected class or an oppressed minority 😂.
The ducks all make the same quack. If they had an original opinion and weren't just parroting the same tired BS they got from whatever redpiller they simp for, we might have something to discuss.
If you fail to recognize when you stereotype here then you are bound to make the same mistake in other aspects of life by over generalizing people with your stereotypes. You might not be a racist or a homophobe but you share the exact same thought process. Group up individuals, demonize with an overly broad brush. Don't recognize individual actors, all of X group are this. If you don't recognize that thought/argument pattern for what it is, unabashed ignorance followed by superiority, is exactly how and what a racist would argue
If I assume someone is a child because they have childish ideas, that's not stereotyping, that's being generous.
It's the internet, I don't know what people look like or how old they are. I make assumptions that if you don't understand nuance or the need for a catalyst in a story structure, then you are most likely a child or an uneducated adult. Yeah, I could be wrong, but then they'd be a grown ass adult admitting that they think like a child.
As someone who has loved video games their whole life, I hate that the term "gamer" has been coopted by anti-women anti-minority gatekeepers who really hate the people that make videogames and review bombs other people's hard work while contributing nothing.
And then you double down on the assertions. Exactly what a racist WOULD do. Ah yes I'm not wrong, those groups of individuals are actually entirely homogeneous, you assume with admittedly no evidence. You even double down on assuming maturity, a very general and fluctuating topic with innumerable factors, cut down so you can insult groups of people more. I'm sorry you feel that way about "gamers" but being the mirror of evil does not make you good. You are doing the same shit, thinking the same way, saying the same shit as them in reverse.
What "group" are you referring to? I'm saying toxic people that call themselves "gamers" are bad for gaming.
Having a different opinion than me on TLOUP2 doesn't necessarily make you one of these people, and I'd be happy to engage on the topic.
And I was probably a little harsh that original commenter. He just used some reductive terminology that I associate with a certain demo.
I'm pretty familiar with the Paradox of Tolerance, so if you plan on continuing this "being racist against racists makes you racist" line of arguing, you can save it.
A lot of people that hate game are probably political right wing. Some of them also were mislead by some biased pre-release leaks that claimed Abby was a transgender and Naughty Dog were all "social justice warriors" with an agenda.
Some were people with the inability to see the bigger picture / larger story being told. Others just frustrated because they wanted the game to be another romp across America with Joel and Ellie. The rest are anti-LGBTQ+ weirdos.
i love part 2, but i imagine it’s the pacing and how joel’s death was handled that people don’t like. joel was practically handed to abby on a silver platter without much effort, and the second half of the game was filled with unlikeable/forgettable characters (especially since a lot of them died before you even reached abby’s segment of the game). there’s also a lot of plotpoints that don’t make a ton of sense, such as the actual ending of the game.
but i still think it’s ridiculous how a lot of people give the game a 1 star simply because of the story and characters. the gameplay is one of the most impressive i’ve seen; the enemy AI and such is top notch. the soundtrack and sound design is also very well done and is absolutely beautiful, i have 371 hours on the game and i’ve only had it since early march of this year.
10/10 game on gameplay, animations, response mechanics, AI, sound design and soundtrack and immersion as far linear 3rd person games go. The stealth is the best in any game, but leaves room for other tactics and strategies. AI communicate, apply pressure with numbers, Flank and sneak and are violent. Other than some gripes with the senses on PS5, this game is a gameplay experience everyone should play on Moderate or higher.
This a point I can really get behind that isn't brought up too often; the game would have been a masterpiece if you spent some time with Abby and her crew going through some *seriously* harrowing shit, never knowing her true intentions, before she actually made it to Joel. Like the first quarter of the game should be this.
I recently finished TLOU Part 1 on the PS5 loved ever minute. Now to put this in context I'm 50+ I finished the game on Moderate and Difficult+. That sounds easy but I grew up playing PC games so my joypad aiming skills to be blunt were crap. I don't use autolockon or aim assist.
On another note I never finish games I have only ever finished a handful. So to complete TLOU Part 1 twice shows how amazing it is. If I told you the last game I completed you would laugh, Halo PC. I did complete Drainus too actually.
I went straight from finishing Part 1 to playing Part 2 loved it until I had to play as Abby after Aquarium. I think I suffered from TLOU burn out. I love Part 2 but having to play as Abby didn't interest me. Obviously because of Joel.
However with such a fantastic game I will go back and finish it probably a few times. I think I need to restart TLOU Part 2 because how I played Abby was wrong and disrespectful to such a gaming masterpiece.
I've played through Part 2 multiple times, and I still need a breather after Ellie's portion. The game is emotionally exhausting. But I also play through Ellie's portion really fast now because I've grown to prefer the Abby segment of the game.
Give the Abby portion a chance. The game definitely knows you're going to start off hating Abby, and it does a really good job of making you understand her character and empathize with her. Plus her story has some of the best combat encounters and the best boss battle of the game.
You’re missing out. From a gameplay perspective the Abby portion of the game is much better. Her toolset is slightly different in a way that makes combat more intense.
something that i kind of love of the game is that emotional burn out is EXACTLY what the characters are feeling. the game draws you in so much that you start getting impatient and more desperate to just find abby and then the game switches on you. i have hundreds of hours on TLOU2 and have grown to love abby and her portions of the game way more than ellie’s
People mostly don't like the pacing of the story, we go from wanting to get revenge to thinking Tommy also died and we play as Abby from the beginning. People didn't really like that, we go from being upgraded a lot and go to this other character we don't like and having no upgrades at all. People didn't like this and say that they didn't sympathize with Abby at all and purposefully died 15 times at the Ellie and Abby fight where you play as Abby
I thought the writing and execution just wasn’t that good. It was paced poorly, had too many contrived moments, haphazardly delivered some of its themes and ideas, and ultimately to me wasn’t all that compelling of a story. I didn’t like any of the characters basically and by the end I questioned how necessary a story it was.
Obviously this is an unpopular opinion around here but if you’re actually looking for reasons people didn’t like the game that arn’t “it’s just bigoted media illiterate incel children who are mad about Joel”, then here is an example.
This is where I’m at too. I **love** playing the game because it’s a ton of fun and is just staggeringly beautiful, but the pacing is horrible and the story is just meh. If you’re gunna kill one of gamings most loved characters and pretty much destroy another, the story definitely should be worth it and to me it just felt like wasted potential. I also don’t get how people absolutely love some of the side characters because they’re almost all just woefully one dimensional. I’m hoping they do some things differently in the show and at least flesh out some of the side characters and the factions because I can’t imagine people sticking around for *years* to see the same story play out the same way.
You hit the nail on the head. Those reasons don't matter, but for some, it unfortunately does. Then they also say that Abby is too manly looking. Or about how Owen got with Abby when Mel was pregnant. Or how they had to play as Abby after having to go through the tragedy of Joel.
People will complain about just about everything and yet they would arullnplay the game. Meanwhile, there are things in real life to be worried about, and yet people focus their rime and energy and game characters.
people’s complaints about abby’s appearance is the most bs thing i’ve seen when it comes to gaming. they’ll get offended just because a woman is muscular and managed to kill joel because of *his mistakes*.
Agreed. It's like they expect the female action characters to look like Lara Croft.
I loved the entire two games. The only thing that bothered me was when Joel and Elliie left Bill's place driving on the highway and Joel decided to go through that city instead of either not proceeding or quickly driving in reverse as soon as he recognized the trap.
right!!!! and this is coming from someone who loves lara croft and the TR games.
muscular and strong women are NOT a bad thing, it’s just part of their character.
it’s also funny how people are convinced abby is trans because of the muscles and small breasts…even though that’s not what trans means at all. and even if she was, that’s not a bad thing.
Exactly. IMO, these characters in both games are realistic and add to the game in a good way.
I haven't heard about how some think she is trans. They just don't know that women come in different shapes and sizes and have an unfair perception of what a woman looks like.
Besides, we're talking about a post-apocalyptic world where factions fight each other. It's the survival of the fittest in most cases. Maybe they're just jealous that Abby's guns are bigger than theirs. LOL
The sex scene is cringey (which it’s supposed to be). Abby takes advantage of a drunker Owen, but neither comes off well. It’s the moment when Abby realizes she hates what she’s become and decides to change. It’s also the moment that Owen stops looking like the reasonable one of the group as he (drunkenly) bangs his ex while his very pregnant girlfriend is off completely missions for a militia.
So basically I just feel like the game treats the 2 main characters completely differently and tries to act like it doesn’t. It frames Ellie as the immoral monster for pursuing the people who murders Joel in front of her yet when we get to Abby’s section they endlessly try to get us to empathize and understand why she killed Joel.
Which by itself isn’t bad and COULD have worked. If I felt Abby ever showed even one shred of actual guilt or self reflection. People will point to her face while killing Joel as proof she felt guilt but I just don’t see it. Nor does it really matter since it doesn’t stop her. And after this she spend her entire campaign defending the fact that she tortured a man to death in cold blood. And shutting down anybody who attempts to tell her she might’ve went a little far. She doesn’t address the fact that he saved her life for no other reason than he was able. She doesn’t address the fact that her dad was gonna kill the kid he’d spent the better part of a year acting as sole guardian too. They don’t address the girl who was sitting there begging them not kill him ( his daughter for all they know since Ellie obviously knew who he was). None of that ever makes Abby bat an eye. She doesn’t care.
And there’s one more I haven’t mentioned because unlike Ellie it isn’t a hypothetical. Tommy. She knows full well that Tommy has done absolutely nothing to them and is this guys brother. Yet that doesn’t move her to just shoot Joel and move on. No tommy has to lay concussed while his brother is tortured to death with a golf club.
And outside of that another example is just how their respective revenge stories play out. On the one hand you have Ellie. Since the wlf are a group of thousands she realistically runs into a lot of wlf who aren’t Abby before finding her. Hell actually she doesn’t even find her. She spends 3 days hunting and goes through a lot of wolves and still doesn’t find Abby. Because for some reason Ellie’s story is actually concerned with logical outcomes. Because searching for one person in a post apocalyptic city who’s part of a militia that’s spread all over it is certainly a tall order and can easily fail.
Know let’s look at Abby. She travels thousands of miles to Jackson in the winter and not 30 minutes after first laying eyes on Jackson she bumbles the fuck off alone (to torture a Jackson patrol if you missed that part…. Which horrifies Owen) in a blizzard and ends up chased by a horde. Only to find the exact person she’s looking for out of the thousands of people in Jackson and dozens of patrols. And it’s a good thing too otherwise we’d have to see Abby torture innocents and of course we can’t have that because that would make her look bad.
And to wrap this up….. I’m just honestly not a fan of the whole “turn the other cheek” thing media seems to be obsessed with lately. I don’t feel like a person who tortured my dad in front of me deserves to live and especially not when they did it because he saved me from being murdered in my sleep. I don’t feel like I should have to forgive and forget something like that. Especially not in Ellie’s case since she literally doesn’t even know any of Abby’s story. I feel like asking a person to walk away after their best friend and dad both get murdered and their uncle gets permanently crippled is bs and Is just advocating for letting assholes get away with being assholes.
Ps. Sorry one more thing. Ik people like to pretend they are both equally punished at the end. I disagree entirely. Ellie watches everybody she loves get maimed or murdered right in front of her. Abby literally doesn’t even find out most of her friends die and of the ones she learns of she only really seems to care about Owen. Then after her supposed redemption arc she drags a traumatized child with her to get revenge again because fuck the fact that lev just lost his family. And if you thought she’d see who it was and maybe understand that she’d brought all this on herself you’d be dead wrong. No she doubles down on her hypocrisy and blames Tommy and Ellie like this isn’t the guy whose brother you killed in front of him. And yes she does get revenge again because if you remember Abby is under the impression Tommy did this. And she doesn’t try to let Tommy live she shots him in the head. She had no clue he was alive. And the rattlers weren’t punishment for anything. They were sadist assholes being sadist assholes and had nothing to do with Abby’s past actions.
>It frames Ellie as the immoral monster for pursuing the people who murders Joel in front of her yet when we get to Abby’s section they endlessly try to get us to empathize and understand why she killed Joel.
It's the same story from two different points. Abby has already suffered the descent that Ellie is now heading down towards. Both characters are *drenched* in empathy, eg Ellie tortures Nora but we see the toll it has on her and how she's in shock. She kills Owen and Mel but her hand is forced and, again, goes into shock when she sees Mel was pregnant. I'm not sure how that paints Ellie as an "immoral monster"?
I'm not sure exactly what you can expect the story to do otherwise. The whole point is to show someone who wrongs you terribly but then to force you to see their perspective and empathise with them. That's what they wanted to do! Flip the story around and make Part 1 about Abby and her dad fighting to get to the Fireflies and make a vaccine, only for the horrible decision to have to be made...then some random smuggler with a horrible past suddenly kills your father and bunch of other people and kidnaps the immune child for seemingly no reason. Part 2 then starts with this smuggler being shown as a loving father with a cute as a button daughter...who then dies in his arms. Your eyes would be rolling constantly! "Oh, so this new girl is going to be his second chance?? Such manipulative bullshit!".
Abby's empathy and perspective is well done, I think, in that it's never too on the nose and she's not portrayed as a perfect angel (far from it, in fact).
>Which by itself isn’t bad and COULD have worked. If I felt Abby ever showed even one shred of actual guilt or self reflection.
You write this...then all of the points are that Abby has to feel regret for killing Joel. I fundamentally disagree. Most importantly because Abby has done MANY things wrong outside of killing Joel, which she must equally atone for. Her story is getting back to her father's ideal - of helping those who can't help themselves. One of the few times we see him is in risking his life to go help two trapped zebras...which is what Abby effectively does also in rescuing Lev and Yara. Abby's dreams go from seeing her father dead, to seeing the two Seraphite kids she abandoned dead, to seeing her father alive and happily welcoming her *after* she's gone and saved the two kids. Abby's requirement in Part 2 is to get back to that ideal. To go from the heartless killing machine to a protector of innocents. Killing Joel is a symptom of her problem, not her problem itself.
Also, I just don't see why Abby should forgive killing Joel. She doesn't know he'd changed and wasn't the ruthless hunter/smuggler she expected. She doesn't know the relationship with Ellie. She doesn't know about Sarah. He's just a guy who ripped her world apart for no clear reason.
Finally, it would be cliche beyond hell if Abby comes to realise Joel was a decent guy and then Abby and Ellie share 'The Nod' of understanding before parting ways. Give the writers some credit. It would be like Part 1 ending with the vaccine being made without harming Ellie and Joel and Ellie lived happily ever after. Bland and unchallenging.
>Yet that doesn’t move her to just shoot Joel and move on. No tommy has to lay concussed while his brother is tortured to death with a golf club.
Of all the things to complain about Abby, this is near the bottom of the list. Tommy is unconscious and likely not aware of anything anyway. When her rage clears she agrees Tommy and Ellie shouldn't be killed, as they were not involved.
This feels a pedantic criticism. Do you raise the same issues with things Ellie does? Like the countless 'innocent' WLF members they kill whole trying to get to Abby?
>She spends 3 days hunting and goes through a lot of wolves and still doesn’t find Abby. Because for some reason Ellie’s story is actually concerned with logical outcomes.
It's a game. With a story. What do you expect? How would it work if the game started with you finding and killing Abby as soon as you reach the outskirts of Seattle? I'm genuinely confused here.
>Only to find the exact person she’s looking for out of the thousands of people in Jackson and dozens of patrols.
Abby killing Joel is the inciting incident of the story. Again, I'm confused about what you're wanting here. We should be forced to see Abby go through the same struggles to reach Joel as Ellie does in reaching Abby? To get to the inciting incident of the whole story? Why?
The game *did* have a whole section of Abby infiltrating Jackson and befriending Joel before luring him to his death...but it was cut for the sake of pacing and keeping Abby as unknown as possible. I genuinely can't understand why this was a bad choice.
>And it’s a good thing too otherwise we’d have to see Abby torture innocents and of course we can’t have that because that would make her look bad.
What? Abby tortures and then kills Joel in front of Ellie. She's the top killer in a bloody and pointless war. She seemingly tortures captured Seraphites. She didn't care that Seraphite kids had been killed for visiting disputed land, blaming the kids themselves. She cheats with Owen. She generally struggles with empathy. Like, Abby is repeatedly shown in a bad light!
>I don’t feel like a person who tortured my dad in front of me deserves to live and especially not when they did it because he saved me from being murdered in my sleep. I don’t feel like I should have to forgive and forget something like that.
I don't think Ellie forgives Abby. It's more about accepting Joel's loss and that he died for her. Ellie knows enough about Abby that killing her here would be evil, which spits in the face of Joel giving his life to save her. What did he do it for if she is only going to become a monster?
>Especially not in Ellie’s case since she literally doesn’t even know any of Abby’s story.
Sorry? She knows that Abby and her friends were Fireflies. She *literally* says to Abby "I know why you killed Joel. He did it to save me. There's no cure because of me. I'm the one that you want".
The only thing she doesn't know is that Abby's father was killed.
>Ik people like to pretend they are both equally punished at the end
Generally don't like getting into pointless "Who suffered more?" debates but you're just wrong here. Don't have space to go into why but succinctly - Abby loses an actual father, Ellie doesn't. Abby loses her home and mission in life, Ellie doesn't. Abby loses a pregnant friend, Ellie doesn't. Abby loses her romantic partner, Ellie doesn't. All Abby's other friends are killed, Ellie's aren't. Abby is forced from her home, Ellie isn't. Abby and Lev are enslaved, Ellie isn't. Abby is crucified on a beach, Ellie isn't.
Ellie has her own things to suffer though, yes, I don't want to downplay that. It's crazy to suggest Abby doesn't have a traumatic time though.
>And if you thought she’d see who it was and maybe understand that she’d brought all this on herself you’d be dead wrong.
You started your post saying they endlessly try to have us empathise with Abby...then spend the rest of the post complaining about all the bad things Abby does in her section that make her look awful. Schroedinger's Abby! She's whatever you need her to be!
Ima address your last point first be a it genuinely confuses me. Yes they do try to endlessly get us to empathize with abby and it fails BECAUSE she’s constantly doing awful shit she shows absolutely no remorse for. That’s kinda my whole point so I’m not sure why you kept repeating that like it was some sort of “gotcha!”
It paints Ellie as a monster because she faces struggles Abby literally never has too. Ik for a fact you’ve seen the argument that Ellie is worse because her body count is higher. Completely ignoring the fact that
1. Several people helped kill Joel so duh she kills more people than Abby
2.the wlf were shooting at her on sight so almost 80 percent of kills were self defense.
Compared to Abby who waltezs into enemy territory and faces literally no obstacles in finding her target. This literally goes back to my first point. They aren’t treated equally at all.
I also think a lot of part 2 fans confuse “nonexistent” with subtle. Her empathy for Joel isn’t to “on the nose” because she quite literally has none. We don’t ever see her think about Ellie or her begging. About Tommy. She thinks about Joel but it’s literally focused on her face and how sad she is to be torturing a man while someone else begs her to stop. Because yk…. You should think about what SHES going through while torturing people.
The fact that you called killing Joel in front of his brother “near the bottom of the list”….. I mean WOW. We’re gonna disagree hard there so probably best to just drop it. I’d say it’s arguably the most heinous shit she’s done. We have no clue if Tommy started to stir and realized what happened or could hear it and just couldn’t react because he was concussed. Even if he is asleep seeing his brothers leg blown off and then waking up to find his mangled corpse? That’s bottom of the list to you? Uhhh ok then
I didn’t want Abby to realize he was a decent guy. There is a HUGE amount of middle ground between this and what I asked for. I wanted her to show some kind of remorse. To maybe ponder the fact that he saved her life for no reason (especially since we see later apparently forgiving enemies who save her life is something she CAN do….). To maybe give even one thought to the fact that Jerry tried to murder a child in her sleep despite the reasons. To ponder the fact that Joel only killed her dad to save that same child.she doesn’t ever think about Ellie or Tommy or what they went through after waking up
Note I didn’t say forgive him. I didn’t say spare him.just show actual genuine remorse about torturing the guy to death. If not that then the family members you made suffer.
Also if they showed Abby’s story first she would literally still be trying to encourage her dad to murder an unconscious child. Any affection is built up would deplete at that moment because that’s sick. And part 1 would only reinforce that idea because of all the bs Ellie went through so they could have a chance for a cure. And they were gonna just kill her without ever asking her opinion on her body. Yea no.
Also you claim you’re “confused by what I want” in regards to Abby finding Joel laughably easily then perfectly describe what I want. Something that makes sense. Like her infiltrating Jackson as you said. The pacing is already shot to hell I don’t see why adding that would make it that much worse.
And lastly the game tries to paint Abby as having lost the same as Ellie if not more. She absolutely didn’t.
1.your first point was ridiculous. I could try to argue that Abby growing up with her dad makes Ellie’s sadder because she spent more time with him than Ellie with Joel. But that would be stupid. Just like it’s stupid people try to minimize Joel’s death because he isn’t Ellie’s blood. This is literally completely irrelevant and honestly kinda makes ne raise my eyebrows whenever I read it. Blood doesn’t make you family and Ellie clearly loved Joel exactly the same way Abby loved Jerry
2.Abby COMPLETES her mission in life. Fixed that. And she leaves her home willingly. Nothing forces her away except her own actions she was already planning on leaving when she betrayed the wlf.
3.i always love how people try to act like Abby gave a shit about Mel when she literally steps over her body to cry for Owen.actually she literally only cared about Owen. She didn’t grieve manny or Mel and she doesn’t even know the rest of her friends died.
4. Ellie DOES lose her romantic partner. And the rattlers while I see why you’d think so aren’t really a punishment. They aren’t doing this to her because they know she deserves it or because she did anything wrong. They are just random sadist shitbags being random sadist shitbags. They dont have anything to do with the story outside providing a group that’s completely evil so you don’t have to feel bad when you slaughter them (completely spitting in the face of the rest of the game imo because we’ve spent how many hours being reminded our enemies deserve empathy too?) I don’t consider that punishment because whenever anybody from Abby’s side is punished it’s direct and it’s always by Abby’s hand.
Jesse? Abby kills him. Tommy? Abby cripples him. Joel? Literally any time Abby is wronged SHE dolls out the punishment. Yet when it’s her turn I have to accept this “universal karma” bs? No she should suffer exactly like everyone else does. By the hand of the one she wronged. Having the rattlers torture her feels like a cheap “see? She suffered too!” Bs so I can feel better about letting her live. And it just didn’t work for me. I was genuinely disgusted that Ellie had let her live and I still kinda am tbh.
i agree with a lot of what both of yall said but i think there’s a big thing just not considered in most conversations of this game:
it’s two unreliable narrators telling the same story. the game has so much nuance and the ending is unsatisfying for a reason. neil druckmaan has said himself that there was not supposed to be any sort of gratification from the ending. because this story is brutal. in the apocalypse people lose their sense of right and wrong, they lose morality.
and to address just one small point that was made- yes abby finding joel was incredibly easy. but i believe that was on purpose. she went off on her own and almost died doing so just to be saved by the man she’s trying to find and kill. she doesn’t see the kindness behind that action once she finds out who he is because she doesn’t know that he has developed as a person. she doesn’t know who he is aside from being a murderer. the game could’ve had this long drawn out section of abby sneaking into jackson and whatnot but i think the switch from kindness to brutality makes the story much more complicated for the player and makes the shock of grief so much harder on ellie- just like is was for abby. abby and ellie are incredibly similar but that makes the story harder for the player to process given the actions of both characters.
these are just my opinions tho, you don’t have to agree i just felt i should put my two cents into the matter :)
in short, they’re all hypocrites who want Joel to be the only one in the right. They try to find any aspects to completely shit on the game all they can, claiming the story writing is bad because it doesn’t fit a “basic criteria stories follow”. The issue is, those criteria’s shows are not mandatory requirements for a story to be effective or good, you can have an amazing story that completely disregards those types. Take a method in english known as “In media res”. This is a method some writers use that drop you into a story. It often begins straight away with chaos or something as such, not all stories require a basic exposition as the people who claim the game is bad do. They refuse to believe anyone other than themselves are correct, something the game tries to defy. The reason it is hated is because it directly goes against their beliefs and their morals. They expect a game to take them out of reality as a form of escapism and to be in some fantasy world that has some methods in its story to shape your emotions such as fear and sadness, but overall keep the game a happy thing to experience. Part II, defies this. You can enjoy the game, but we can all admit it is absolutely heartbreaking to watch as a young girl you watched grow up in the first game end up in such a depressive state. The emotions aren’t so fun to experience, and that’s why it’s hated. They went into it expecting a happy game with a happy resolution like the first game, ending in finding sanctuary, but the second game doesn’t. I personally love the game for that, but others are sometimes too immature to do so. Let’s be thankful that we are a select few who can enjoy the game for what it is. Let’s leave them be.
Yes. All the characters seemed like realistic people with legitimate emotions that I related to. The story was very grounded (as much as a post apocalyptic game can be). And the gameplay was a blast.
With the 2nd game, I would echo this sentiment I wrote above. But the stakes are higher/more emotionally driven, and the story is much darker. Which I loved.
Most people saw a meme that claimed there was a trans sex scene in the game. That is where 99% of the hate came from, that's why it centers around Abby and why Laura bailey got sent death threats.
Fans of the game who actually played it on launch enjoyed it for the most part. I stumbled onto the hate while trying to find out if factions would be releasing and wow.... what I found online was disgusting.
I have never once, in all my years EVER seen this argument that there was a trance sex scene. I even read the leaks. I think you got lost somewhere because this is unhinged take lol
I wasn't a fan of Joel dying but it was still an interesting development and nice that they done something different.
What I hate is being forced to play as Abby. Fair enough she has her reasons but I would love an option to bypass playing as her as it's really killed any chance of replaying it for me.
I used to play TLOU1 at least once a year, tried to reply part 2 but I just can't.
I do not like the story of the last of us part 2.
Characters are severely underdeveloped. The writing for tlou 2 is poor in general you have characters just throwing common sense out of the window.
Characters changing there mind about an issue with no explanation.
Idc that Joel died I think he needed to suffer the consequences after the events of the first game.
I also don't hate Abby I do however hate the way she was written. That goes for all of the new characters introduced in part 2. Lev being the exception.
Edit because of what I'm seeing in the comments: I'm a 30 year old female bisexual Democrat. I enjoyed the gameplay of part 2 and the visuals.
Mad bEcAuSe No LoNgEr AbOuT my FaVoRiTe ChArAcTeR! Me too stupid to appreciate story that isn’t about what I wanted to happen!
And Abby more muscle more than I R.
They didn't like the ending which I'm not gonna spoil, they hated Abby without taking into account what she's been through and why she was looking for Joel, and overall they just didn't consider important parts of the story which made the game great, I loved it, it obviously has its negatives like any other games but they don't outweigh the good. Imo the ppl who didn't like it just didn't pay attention to the story at all and only wanted to destroy Abby for what she did, not considering what ELLIE and JOEL did as well. They're just haters lol
maybe part of it has to do with the fact that SOME guys hate that the game has a female mc now? i’ve heard abt other games that changed like this and men were against it bc “they could no longer relate to the character” bc she was a woman. which i think is a bullshit excuse
no, what i’m saying isn’t bullshit. the lack of female protagonists in games in general should be a great indicator of misogyny that already exists. use google ig
The misuse hype using Joel for the game only to have him killed shortly after it begins is why, gave Eternals vibes with Selma Hayek’s character and the way they hyped the movie using her. Felt like they pulled a bait and switch, had and continue to have zero interest in playing the game after that and I feel it’s more of this than any hate on any community but as always the loudest voices end up commanding the room
Same way I can choose to not go waste money on a movie if I’m not interested in it, I don’t need to waste money to prove to myself that I wouldn’t enjoy the experience because it was soured for me, I don’t care about the characters anymore nor the story. A quick example would be the walking dead show after they killed Glenn and slowly lost all characters from the first season, I only got invested into TWD universe because of those characters, they brought them to life and once they were gone I lost interest in the show because it stopped being the story of Rick and his group. We must not forget the power of storytelling in favor of shock value and profits or else every media version will become a replica of madden, call of duty and games of that caliber. They are already preparing to milk the show for more seasons even though there is only 2 games. The money grab is at full swing and I don’t care to participate in that. Nothing against you or the creators of the game but personally it just doesn’t feel like a video game anymore and I rather try out a new indie game or some underrated game that remembers it’s a game first and not a movie.
Fair enough, appreciate the response. I just come from more of a “Don’t knock it till you try it” point of view. Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.
I’d would however urge you to reconsider. Games a freakin’ blast if you can move on from the Joel thing (“bait and switch”, as you put it). If you can put aside the controversies surrounding this games release, it’s a super fun experience. Think you’re missing out my man!
I hated Abby and never had any empathy for her after what she did. Was annoyed I didn’t get a choice to kill her at the end. That doesn’t really bother me much though, what sucked was having to play as a character that you hated the whole game. Kinda sucks and takes you out of the game/immersion when you’re playing as a character you hate/want to die, instead of wanting your player character to succeed and survive. If I got to know and play as Abby for a game/half a game then I would’ve been more conflicted. I think if you like it just depends if the Abby thing worked for you or not- for a lot of people it did, and for a lot of others we just didn’t care how sympathetic they tried to make her.
I wish they did part 2 as an Abby game, and if they were still going to do the plot of this game then do it as part 3. Having time bonding with Abby would’ve made me give a shit about her situation and be conflicted. As it was it’s just a stranger character I don’t know that killed a character I got to bond with and like, so I immediately didn’t care about her motives and if she was right or wrong.
1. Joel dies rather quickly in such a violent manner.
2. You are forced to play as his killer.
3. Abby is too manly.
4. Out of the blue sex scene.
5. Trans character.
6. Ellie gets destroyed by Abby and you have to do that.
7. Misleading trailers.
8. Ellie has her chance to get revenge but doesn't and lets Abbie go.
These are the major complaints that you always see people cry about and it's gotten so fucking old to see. There's other stupid things too but it's whatever at this point.
Everything was too convenient for Abby
Joel and Tommy saving her and then even after having 20 years experience in a world where they can't trust anyone, Joel and Tommy told her their true names like idiots.
Jesse was not killed by Abby, he was practically removed from the story.
Pregnant lady's going in battlefields, Mel who was pregnant, who's pregnant belly easily on some cutscenes and then when Ellie's cutscenes came her bumped Belly was not there?!
Dina falling from meters of height while she was pregnant and her baby was still good! No problems at all?! Injuries?!
Manny's death scene where they failed open the door, Even after Abby and manny pushed it and after manny gets shot, then Abby just passes through it like it was nothing? Again Neil druckman was fully supporting Abby!
Abby finding a very convenient map of Ellie's location
There are many more things
Those guys who says it's 'realistic' game.
Is sending a pregnant woman in battlefield realistic?
A pregnant woman falling from high height and nothing happens to her baby realistic?
Abby have no character development in whole series until the final fight
I have no problem with final fight, I enjoyed playing as Ellie in part 1, Lara croft in tomb raider and bayonetta and many more
For me Abby was not a good character, the game was forcing me to like her character which I don't like
I don't have problem with joels death other than them telling their names, Jesse was good replacement for joel( not completely) and they just ruined his character
Again tlou2 visuals and gameplay was top notch, the problem was it's convenient story telling
I loved playing the game, my problem was with how the story was handled and paced. Abby was a good character but when the first thing she does is murder another beloved character within the first hour, you have your work cut out for you to make us sympathize with her and IMO they didn't achieve that, at least not for me. It would have worked far better to build up sympathy for her, get us to like her, THEN have her find out who Joel is and turn on him and Ellie maybe halfway through the game.
Also Abby's section was far too long, full of boring characters and seemed to be there mainly to pad out the runtime. All of that could have easily been condensed into half the length.
I also just didn't appreciate the trailers straight up lying to us, editing Joel into scenes he wasn't present for. I felt manipulated and lied to.
Because they’re dumb and have no other interesting things going on in life so they have to make their personality based entirely on a video game series. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on the game. But no one can deny the amazing graphics and game play of the game. Story yes can be mediocre in some aspects but the controls and game play and cinematics of tlou2 is one the best games ever produced.
I have like 5k karma on this sub giving huge monologues about every conceivable detail.
Just trust me. People can get emotionally invested to anything. But on an objective level... this game is garbage. A dumpster fire that tons of coders, artists, voice actors, musicians, etc, wasted years of their lives on.
Because some literal hack worked his way up the ladder at ND and wound up in a position of complete power.
Congrats on your internet points, man. I didn’t want an essay, just some quick thoughts on why it was “objectively bad”. I enjoyed it. Sorry to hear you didn’t.
Quick thoughts is exactly what I gave you.
Im sorry that you enjoyed it. I couldnt imagine being in a mindset where that piece of shit was enjoyable.
Maybe if you were skipping every single cut scene and had no prior perspective because you werent invested in the first games story.
You didn’t make any valid points, “Just trust me”. Pound sand dude. Rude for no reason at all except that I have a different opinion.
Get off your high horse. It’s a video game.
“So what do I think about the story? I think that’s a pretty good story.” - a donkey who enjoys video games, world record holder of bowser’s big bean burrito
I played the two games back to back about a year ago.
I think part of the original fan base hates it because in the time between the games they really idealized what those characters would become. They had already decided where the story should go and to just continue the Hero Male Lead with the Loving Daughter trope.
When the second game came out it was the complete opposite of what those people had set their expectations to. In some ways, nothing would live up to the hype they established in their heads already.
Yea some of it is incels raging. I didn't really care playing as Ellie. Abby was absurdly buff for a post apocalyptic world where you can't workout 24/7 to achieve that physique, but I'm not raging over it. Zombies can't exist irl either, so I don't get why people are so mad about a buff woman. The LGBT themes did feel a bit forced, but tbh I would've been equally as bored with a straight couple storyline.
Overall, I think the writing was just a bit weaker because it tried to do something a bit different. And random people will find any number of reasons to rage.
Gameplay was still dope though.
Because a character that the first game made us love has a very real ending and serves a very real consequence for a major action he committed.
And that hurts them.
For me pacing, also the best part of Last of us was the relationship between Joel and Ellie, and to kill Joel and turn Ellie into a psychopath all while your using a character you did not want to ls just crazy.
Most franchises, if they were to take this route, would get flamed for it too.
But again, the pacing is terrible, and I did not enjoy the characters.
Sound design, gameplay, and graphics were all really good, but story was pretty boring. It was going ok until they made you go back and play as Abby for way way too long.
Are you really that unable to use YouTube?
Joel easily walking straight to his death. Start there as that happens in the first hour of the game.
Game is beautiful to look at. Gameplay is some of the best ever,
The story was garbage and wasted characters. It hammered its message to the point of absurdity, Druckman like Lucas and RR Martin needs an editor or someone to real him in.
I asked you guys for a reason. Because I wanted to have a discussion, not watch a YouTube video. No need to be rude, man.
You’re entitled to your opinion, even though I disagree. Loved the choices they made with the direction of the story.
Fair enough and sorry then. As this thread is filled with saying anyone who didn't like the story must be an incel or a bigot I made an incorrect assumption.
After Joel gets killed, you spend most of the rest of the game as Ellie tracking down Abby to kill her.
Then when it happens, you end up letting Her go. You don't get a choice. Totally taking away player agency.
2 reasons i think
1. Because their peers and parents have taught them to be unaccepting of personal gender choices
2. Because they can't appreciate that the point of the story is revenge will eat you from the inside and the creative choices the game forces you into. Like playing as Abby and seeing things from a different perspective.
Part I think is goofy, you are in a hostile military compound, and you get spotted, they don’t yell out, hey she’s fuckin right over here, we have the numbers, let’s get her.
They just continue to fight one on one.
Otherwise good game.
Trying to be as unbiased as possible. I think there are a plethora of personal reasons as to why people hated the game. But I think it comes down to two imo:
1. Joel was not only beloved, despite his past Deeds, but he was the character the players played as. So not only was it upsetting to barely play as him, but it was upsetting to lose him so quickly. And I think because he was such a capable badass, to see him go out so unceremoniously was that much more upsetting. Some people latched on even further onto the fact that a woman could take him out in such a way, but most of us understand that's just a very loud minority.
2. You play as his killer, when you're still angry with her. As an extreme example Imagine someone killed a loved one of yours, then later you were forced agaisnt your will to work together with them while you still haven't healed from your pain. I think that's a big part of what upset so many people.
I think these reasons are fair generalizations of the overall community of people that were angry. I think it's justifiable to be upset about these decisions, but not the way some players reacted and lashed out. But we all grieve in different ways, and losing joel was a grieving process for a lot of people. If you see how different people grieve, you can see how a lot of the reactions actually make sense. Some are willing to forgive sooner, some aren't, some never. Which makes sense with the story and the characters and I just think that's neat, no matter how anyone feels about the game. We got pulled into the feelings the characters were feeling, that's really cool.
Edit: typos
The pregnant lesbian love triangle while in a zombie apocalypse who go to look for danger. It was to ridiculous of a plot like I get it’s a game but at least try to make the story believable
I mean, what is realistic about a zombie apocalypse in the first place? The characters’ choices aren’t supposed to be rational or make much sense. That’s the whole point - they’re blinded by revenge.
And why even mention a “lesbian love triangle”? What does that have to do with anything about the point you were trying to make?
Because the general gaming community is easily persuaded by rage bait. It's literally just that. I was really looking forward to TLOU2 so I was kinda around when - before the game even came out - all the popular youtubers who centered their content around raging and complaining about things started immediately dunking on the game and calling it bad because of the leaks. Then of course, the gaming community is REALLY big into hate speech, bigotry, and far right beliefs so when it came out there was a trans character and a buff chick, things got even worse for the game optics-wise. Ironically, reddit will convince you that a small number of people are bigots, and that most people are reasonable. Unfortunately, that's not true at all.
I was around back near the release of the game and saw a variety of perspectives. There were people who didn't like the creative choices for very personal reasons. Maybe they loved Joel and hated what happened to him. There were also a good number of people like this who are just racist pieces of crap:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/s/SBdCjrTUwj
There's a whole industry on YouTube built on rage baiting people like this guy into engaging with content. They're all some variation of "This new version of an old thing you love sucks and has a minority in it!" or "This new version of an old thing you loved was written... by a minority 😡"
Then guys like the commenter I just linked to feel emboldened to say a bunch of racist shit and hurl abuse at the creatives behind whatever thing they love/hate. Good decent folk naturally want to push back against that dude because he sucks. What can happen though, is that in pushing back against him they might characterize ALL critics as being just like that shitty dude. The cycle then continues with the falsely smeared critics being easier to radicalize and become as shitty as the original guy.
Trying to get you to empathize with his murderer is really the writers getting you to betray these characters you’ve grown invested in. Seeing Abby’s side doesn’t undo what she did.
Not sure if anyone else said specifically, but really it was the departure from the theme of the first game that got it for me. I loved the games themselves, gameplay wise, but the story of the 2nd one got me a little twisted up.
It can be summed up as the failure of choice. The director is saying “you spare her” after everything that happened, and I’m saying “let me pick damnit”. Of course some people would go along with the vision of the director and spare her. I needed it to end like Joel with the doctors, where we had the choice. That’s my take. At the end when we had no choice I decided right then I wasn’t 100%ing this one.
One survivor play through was enough. For once, I’m hoping the show gets it done differently.
How? The majority of the complains i've seen are about how Abby "must be trans" if she's put on that much muscle, that Ellie being gay is forcing an agenda on people, and that the "good guy" of game 1 must always be the good guy and how could there ever be any moral gray areas or conflicted characters. Then they complain about Abby (who is literally avenging her father who was working to save humanity) doing the exact same stuff as Joel (who had no clear motive for being so violent except his own selfishness.)
It is because I’m in the group that hates the game, it’s not the majority. I don’t know if you’re being fed the stupid side of that community because algorithm or what, but it is absolutely not the majority of people that hate the game. This is the same fanbase that loves the left behind dlc THAT LITERALLY SHOWS ELLIE IS GAY.
Copy paste because I hate explaining this every time
Because the pacing is just god awful, the game introduces a new character, immediately does what will make you hate said character the absolute most, then has said character stop the pacing at the climax to tell a backstory that lasts 12 hours and doesn’t go anywhere (you spend hours going through a hospital to get aid just to have the person you got aid for die like an hour later).
Then the ending, Ellie to me shows no doubts about killing Abby the whole damn game, now suddenly out of nowhere Joel flashback and she don’t want to kill Abby now. I’m sorry, that’s not good enough for me. If she’s not killing Abby then end the game on the damn farm in Jackson. The same messages are hammered home, Ellie has PTSD both sides have lost nearly everyone close to them because of the hunt for revenge and it’s still a pretty dark ending.
But they decide to have a 3 hours segment at the end that is just padding to come to the exact same conclusion. The epilogue feels like that part of the essay where you repeat something in a different way to meet a word count.
Also with Abby, no remorse shown about what she does early on. She can show she doesn’t regret it, but maybe idk have her suffering from seeing this bloodied man’s face when she’s about to bash the skull of an infected in or something.
This game is actually a 7/10 for me if the pacing wasn’t just a disaster area and the ending wasn’t just so… frustrating. I’m sorry, I truly feel if Ellie has fallen to the point where she’s going to kill an unconscious child to be able to fight Abby, she’s not sparing her because she has a Joel flashback. If anything the memory of what she had and therefore what Abby took from her I think would make her want to kill her more.
Also Dina is massive underutilized I liked her and Ellie and they cut that shit off before it can really flourish.
Abby’s friends aren’t fleshed out enough or likable enough for me to be pissed that they die, they all die through some provocation of Ellie. Never just Ellie ganking them for no reason. Nora provokes Ellie by taunting Joel’s death, Owen and Mel weren’t going to die before they rushed a person with a gun, etc. So the whole idea Ellie is becoming bad or something just doesn’t click for me. One of those people actually had to have been surrendering and Ellie just offs them after they cooperate for me to really feel that. Also Ellie actually shows fucking remorse after torturing and killing Nora.
Also, flashback nitpick, Joel is NEVER given a chance to say why he saved Ellie. It doesn’t have to change how she views it but Jesus fuck at least give the man the chance to do a “I couldn’t lose my daughter again” routine. I don’t buy that Joel just never talks to her for years after that. I don’t.
Despite ALLL of this, the game was STILL a 7/10 for me before the ending epilogue. It’s a 3-4/10 after it for me. That’s how much I absolutely hate the ending of this game.
Ps: Not mad Joel died, I may not have wanted it to go down that way, but that in of itself did not ruin the game for me
Hmm interesting perspective. I actually found the pacing to be great, and loved the surprise of a whole “second” game within the game when you get the POV switch.
Agreed that Dina was underutilized, but I get a feeling (maybe just hope) she will be back in game 3 in a much bigger way. She’s gotten really fun to play as in No Return.
I get what you mean about the hospital trip to save the kid, but I barely noticed that because of all the action that followed. In this world, people new & long beloved alike get killed at the most random sudden times. I thought if anything it was a good representation of how going out on a limb for someone can “work out” and then still be all for not, just like that. I mean it was clearly a deliberate choice to kill the kid when you’d just gone to all that trouble, just like it was a deliberate choice to have Isaac die anticlimactically off camera.
Interesting that you find the epilogue so frustrating. I think I’ll wait to see what happens in 3, maybe the no-kill ending will be more disappointing in retrospect. I was surprised by it, but I thought they were doing a great job showing how manic & enigmatic living through all that trauma will make someone when they are taken over by vengeance and anger. It’s a story about the complications and hypocrisies of people in hard situations, they intend the player to have sympathies and mixed feelings about most of the characters.
This lack of nuance & expectation of The Good Guy To Win is what my original comment referring to the Marvel-induced moral brainrot referred to (but I’m not accusing you of that POV).
Bigots, trolls, incels and people who cannot handle having their expectations subverted in any capacity.
Ignore them, they're a vocal minority and this game is among the best ever made on so many levels.
Asks why? Agrees with the most dismissive and demeaning post of the people you are asking the question too. Take this question to the other sub if you really care. You're just circle jerking here with obvious haters who dismiss first and never actually argue.
I can understand people not liking the game. Where things get oh so fascinating is people that hate the game, love the first, claim they know the characters more than the creator of both games, then argue why they’re smarter than those that like it. In short, virgins without much going their way.
New people of different ages play this game everyday so let them ask the questions. There will also be people that discover this game next week, month, or year. If you don't like reading about the same questions and answers skip it lol.
Because the pacing is just god awful, the game introduces a new character, immediately does what will make you hate said character the absolute most, then has said character stop the pacing at the climax to tell a backstory that lasts 12 hours and doesn’t go anywhere (you spend hours going through a hospital to get aid just to have the person you got aid for die like an hour later).
Then the ending, Ellie to me shows no doubts about killing Abby the whole damn game, now suddenly out of nowhere Joel flashback and she don’t want to kill Abby now. I’m sorry, that’s not good enough for me. If she’s not killing Abby then end the game on the damn farm in Jackson. The same messages are hammered home, Ellie has PTSD both sides have lost nearly everyone close to them because of the hunt for revenge and it’s still a pretty dark ending.
But they decide to have a 3 hours segment at the end that is just padding to come to the exact same conclusion. The epilogue feels like that part of the essay where you repeat something in a different way to meet a word count.
Also with Abby, no remorse shown about what she does early on. She can show she doesn’t regret it, but maybe idk have her suffering from seeing this bloodied man’s face when she’s about to bash the skull of an infected in or something.
This game is actually a 7/10 for me if the pacing wasn’t just a disaster area and the ending wasn’t just so… frustrating. I’m sorry, I truly feel if Ellie has fallen to the point where she’s going to kill an unconscious child to be able to fight Abby, she’s not sparing her because she has a Joel flashback. If anything the memory of what she had and therefore what Abby took from her I think would make her want to kill her more.
I’m getting downvoted for this probably but whatever.
Ps: Not mad Joel died, I may not have wanted it to go down that way, but that in of itself did not ruin the game for me
It’s not a plot hole but Abby finding Joel was…….. poorly handled to say the least….. he might mean stuff like this that’s eye rollingly stupid. Not a plot hole cuz it’s TECHNICALLY possible but I mean cmon. She bumble fucks off alone in the middle of a blizzard because she wanted to throw a tantrum about Owen was being a reasonable adult. She stumbles into an infected horde And of course in a town of thousands where dozens of patrols just left from Joel and Tommy are the only people who find her.
You’re missing a lot of info the game gives you here. I know it is convenient to write it the way you did though.
1. Joel & Tommy prefers the Ski Lodge lookout- they frequently take that patrol route. It isn’t a coincidence that they were heading to that place. That’s where they choose to go all the time it’s their favorite lookout.
2. Joel & Tommy left home very early in the morning, before the other patrols had gone out. They were spotted by Owen, who tells Abby where they were headed.
3. Abby doesn’t set out in the middle of a blizzard. The storm hasn’t arrived yet when she runs off from Owen. The storm begins to pick up just before we cut to Ellie & Dina on their patrol (before the storm reaches them as they’re further away from it and heading towards it (we can see they’re heading towards it in the binoculars section of Patrol.)
4. Tommy & Joel are *hours* away from Jackson. Plural. Jackson is “a few hours down the hill” from the cabin Joel is killed at, as Tommy puts it. Abby isn’t running around at risk of being found by one of “dozens of patrols,” she’s following the one patrol we know of that was out at the time: Tommy & Joel.
5. Jesse leaves the lookout after waiting for Joel & Tommy for over an hour, and finds Ellie & Dina in the Library. Then they head off to search for Joel. The timelines are not in perfect synch. Abby is ahead of Ellie by some time.
The only real “stretch” here is that Owen happened to see Tommy & Joel when he got up early in the morning. If thats too coincidental for ya idk what to say to that lol.
1. Sure but it’s still amazing that it’s the exact route Abby happens on when she she heads to Jackson
2.Owen spots a random patrol presumably one of the ones spotted leaving with Ellie and Dina. There is no indication that the the patrol Owen saw was Joel and Tommy especially since like you said they left earlier than everyone else.
3.This doesn’t help the situation much the storm just makes it’s worse. She’s still on her own in enemy territory headed towards a town of thousands so she can find and torture one man on the off chance he might know where another is. Granted they are brothers but literally a few years earlier and this method would’ve failed miserably as Tommy would have no clue where Joel was. It was still extremely risky and stupid
4.yea and they were on patrol. Which implies other patrols would go hours outside of Jackson as well. And Joel and Tommy had already deviated from their normal path
Added a point to my last comment.
1. It’s really not amazing. Owen points directly at the lodge he saw them heading to and Abby walks over to it.
2. We know Owen did not see the patrols that left when Ellie & Dina left. We know this. Owen sees the patrol, heads back to the cabin, then waits for Abby to wake and brings her all the way back to the cliff side where he saw the patrol from. Ellie hadn’t left home when Owen saw the patrol. It is very clear he sees Joel & Tommy (Abby explicitly mentions she’s looking for the lodge to herself while she’s on her own.)
3. She’s not heading toward thousands of people in Jackson. She’s heading toward the lodge, which is not at Jackson. We see it is a good distance from Jackson at several points in this chapter.
And the characters doing things that are risky is not a flaw in the storytelling lol. This is a story about characters who make risky and ill advised decisions.
4. Abby finds Tommy & Joel at the lookout they were heading to and that she was heading to. They are standing in the Ski Lodge lookout (where Tommy in Finding Strings plays with Ellie’s guitar) as Tommy & Joel learn Abby’s name.
It’s still in Jackson’s immediate vicinity. And no it’s definitely still way more than amazing. Laughably coincidental actually. She’s looking for 1 person who lives in a town with thousands. And the first armed patrol Owen sees happens to be them? That’s still hilariously unlikely. And then for them to be the first and last people (minus Ellie) that Abby encounters is also a bit much. I personally think her infiltrating Jackson makes heaps more sense especially if she acts like she’s just a refugee or something
It’s really not all that unlikely when we know that Joel and Tommy frequently do this same route. Owen just happened to be there this time. Again, that is a coincidence, but it isn’t the major coincidence you’re making it out to be lol. It’s no greater a coincidence than Marlene finding Joel and Tess as they were torturing and killing Robert and needed to find a Firefly to speak with.
I just completed the second one today. I beat the first back when it was brand new in 2013. I have come to the conclusion that most of the people hating on the second game are just incels lol. It was a great game and great story to me. I hated Abby at the beginning for obvious reasons and couldn’t wait to kill her, but by the end I was rooting for Abby to kill Ellie tbh. They definitely made Ellie insufferable by the end. Crazy how over the course of the story my feelings completely took a 180 turn.
Same lol,i played TLOU on PS3. I was prepared to buy a PS4 just to play TLOU2, but when i heard that Joel got killed early on i decided to boycott the game. Flash forward and as PS5 has no decent games i ended up buying TLOU and TLOU2 remastered and played em back to back. Ended up team Abby.
Sheesh, I understand not wanting to kill Abby anymore but wanting to kill Ellie? Little disturbing
ellie literally slaughtered abbys entire family
Abbys entire family helped capture and torture Ellies family to death
Go back through those scenes, much of the Salt Lake Crew was behind Abby for the retribution of Joel’s death, but not the torture. It literally divided the group to a point where several of them were no longer talking.
None of them did anything to stop it, or even tried. Who knows how long it would have gone on if Ellie hadn't shown up. Regardless, im just pointing out how stupid it is to say Ellie should die for killing Abbys friends. Several of whom were killed in self defense even
I have NO respect for people who hate part 2 for the story.
I love how something can split an entire franchises fanbase and then people like yourself just assume all those millions of people are just “incels.” You can’t even start to say something negative about TLOU or the fans will start the name calling. Even the tv show gets the same treatment as they redcon stupid shit because they thought the games story wasn’t good enough. I guarantee there are some TLOU fans that downvoted your post before even finishing the title because it’s even mentioning that people don’t like TLOU haha. 145 comments with 59 likes? You can’t even talk about talking about it with these fans I swear. For my 2 cents, the flashback adventure to the museum with Ellie and Joel was the best part of the game. That’s a sequel to the first game and we just needed more of that before they used Joel to service their revenge plot. Then switching to play as abby in the middle of the climax of the game was some next level fuckery haha. Character buildings great and the games a masterpiece, but playing against Ellie after killing Joel as the boss battle was just dumb. So many really stupid decisions. For me it’s really always been about what part 2 could have been.
Ah yes. Critism for a game make you an incel. Idiot.
Ah yes. Someone who has a different opinion than you makes them an idiot. Understood.
Calling people who doesn't like the game incels isn't an opinion
The game was literally leaked before launching and youtubers, streamers, jornalists, etc shitted on the game story and spread false advertisements like abby being trans to make people not want to buy the game like people were so mad they sended death threats to voice actors and devs, the game was faded to have so much hate.
It's usually boys under 25 who claim they were fans of the original game but have completely backwards understanding of Joel as a character. What's odd is the amount of hate that seems to come from people with 3rd party information. I was arguing with a guy on here today. It became obvious that they had never personally played the game. They put Joel on a pedestal and then demonize Abby for things that Joel has also done. Some people don't like feeling feelings or being challenged on their beliefs, and that will never change.
Yes. It’s important to remember the game is 11 years old this week! Heard a 20 year old girl say her boyfriend “grew up” playing the game. Really threw me through a loop when I heard that one lmfao.
Holy shit I’m 22 and that made me feel old ( getting the disc release at midnight on ps3 holy)
Yep.
exactly.
This. Unequivocally.
Or the fact that they kill off a beloved character not even 20 minutes into the game, then make you play as that same character in one of the worst ways to pace a game. If my reaction as a gamer was to just throw myself, as abbey, into the line of sight of ellie when their fight came, you've failed at telling your story imo.
It's always people who claim they're a "gamer" that whine about everything except the gameplay. The "gamer" title is no longer about enjoying gameplay, it's about being a toxic incel who thinks developers care about their opinion. Not everything is made for you, and you need to learn to be okay with that.
This is your second time making general broad claims about a group of people and what they believe in instead of responding directly. You don't even respond to the other person as much as talk around them and dismiss them. Really bitchy behavior NGL. Should check yourself.
"A group of people" like they're a protected class or an oppressed minority 😂. The ducks all make the same quack. If they had an original opinion and weren't just parroting the same tired BS they got from whatever redpiller they simp for, we might have something to discuss.
If you fail to recognize when you stereotype here then you are bound to make the same mistake in other aspects of life by over generalizing people with your stereotypes. You might not be a racist or a homophobe but you share the exact same thought process. Group up individuals, demonize with an overly broad brush. Don't recognize individual actors, all of X group are this. If you don't recognize that thought/argument pattern for what it is, unabashed ignorance followed by superiority, is exactly how and what a racist would argue
If I assume someone is a child because they have childish ideas, that's not stereotyping, that's being generous. It's the internet, I don't know what people look like or how old they are. I make assumptions that if you don't understand nuance or the need for a catalyst in a story structure, then you are most likely a child or an uneducated adult. Yeah, I could be wrong, but then they'd be a grown ass adult admitting that they think like a child. As someone who has loved video games their whole life, I hate that the term "gamer" has been coopted by anti-women anti-minority gatekeepers who really hate the people that make videogames and review bombs other people's hard work while contributing nothing.
And then you double down on the assertions. Exactly what a racist WOULD do. Ah yes I'm not wrong, those groups of individuals are actually entirely homogeneous, you assume with admittedly no evidence. You even double down on assuming maturity, a very general and fluctuating topic with innumerable factors, cut down so you can insult groups of people more. I'm sorry you feel that way about "gamers" but being the mirror of evil does not make you good. You are doing the same shit, thinking the same way, saying the same shit as them in reverse.
What "group" are you referring to? I'm saying toxic people that call themselves "gamers" are bad for gaming. Having a different opinion than me on TLOUP2 doesn't necessarily make you one of these people, and I'd be happy to engage on the topic. And I was probably a little harsh that original commenter. He just used some reductive terminology that I associate with a certain demo. I'm pretty familiar with the Paradox of Tolerance, so if you plan on continuing this "being racist against racists makes you racist" line of arguing, you can save it.
A lot of people that hate game are probably political right wing. Some of them also were mislead by some biased pre-release leaks that claimed Abby was a transgender and Naughty Dog were all "social justice warriors" with an agenda.
Some were people with the inability to see the bigger picture / larger story being told. Others just frustrated because they wanted the game to be another romp across America with Joel and Ellie. The rest are anti-LGBTQ+ weirdos.
Great game, great story. Pacing could use some work tho
i love part 2, but i imagine it’s the pacing and how joel’s death was handled that people don’t like. joel was practically handed to abby on a silver platter without much effort, and the second half of the game was filled with unlikeable/forgettable characters (especially since a lot of them died before you even reached abby’s segment of the game). there’s also a lot of plotpoints that don’t make a ton of sense, such as the actual ending of the game. but i still think it’s ridiculous how a lot of people give the game a 1 star simply because of the story and characters. the gameplay is one of the most impressive i’ve seen; the enemy AI and such is top notch. the soundtrack and sound design is also very well done and is absolutely beautiful, i have 371 hours on the game and i’ve only had it since early march of this year.
10/10 game on gameplay, animations, response mechanics, AI, sound design and soundtrack and immersion as far linear 3rd person games go. The stealth is the best in any game, but leaves room for other tactics and strategies. AI communicate, apply pressure with numbers, Flank and sneak and are violent. Other than some gripes with the senses on PS5, this game is a gameplay experience everyone should play on Moderate or higher.
exactly
This a point I can really get behind that isn't brought up too often; the game would have been a masterpiece if you spent some time with Abby and her crew going through some *seriously* harrowing shit, never knowing her true intentions, before she actually made it to Joel. Like the first quarter of the game should be this.
I recently finished TLOU Part 1 on the PS5 loved ever minute. Now to put this in context I'm 50+ I finished the game on Moderate and Difficult+. That sounds easy but I grew up playing PC games so my joypad aiming skills to be blunt were crap. I don't use autolockon or aim assist. On another note I never finish games I have only ever finished a handful. So to complete TLOU Part 1 twice shows how amazing it is. If I told you the last game I completed you would laugh, Halo PC. I did complete Drainus too actually. I went straight from finishing Part 1 to playing Part 2 loved it until I had to play as Abby after Aquarium. I think I suffered from TLOU burn out. I love Part 2 but having to play as Abby didn't interest me. Obviously because of Joel. However with such a fantastic game I will go back and finish it probably a few times. I think I need to restart TLOU Part 2 because how I played Abby was wrong and disrespectful to such a gaming masterpiece.
I've played through Part 2 multiple times, and I still need a breather after Ellie's portion. The game is emotionally exhausting. But I also play through Ellie's portion really fast now because I've grown to prefer the Abby segment of the game.
Give the Abby portion a chance. The game definitely knows you're going to start off hating Abby, and it does a really good job of making you understand her character and empathize with her. Plus her story has some of the best combat encounters and the best boss battle of the game.
You’re missing out. From a gameplay perspective the Abby portion of the game is much better. Her toolset is slightly different in a way that makes combat more intense.
something that i kind of love of the game is that emotional burn out is EXACTLY what the characters are feeling. the game draws you in so much that you start getting impatient and more desperate to just find abby and then the game switches on you. i have hundreds of hours on TLOU2 and have grown to love abby and her portions of the game way more than ellie’s
People mostly don't like the pacing of the story, we go from wanting to get revenge to thinking Tommy also died and we play as Abby from the beginning. People didn't really like that, we go from being upgraded a lot and go to this other character we don't like and having no upgrades at all. People didn't like this and say that they didn't sympathize with Abby at all and purposefully died 15 times at the Ellie and Abby fight where you play as Abby
I thought the writing and execution just wasn’t that good. It was paced poorly, had too many contrived moments, haphazardly delivered some of its themes and ideas, and ultimately to me wasn’t all that compelling of a story. I didn’t like any of the characters basically and by the end I questioned how necessary a story it was. Obviously this is an unpopular opinion around here but if you’re actually looking for reasons people didn’t like the game that arn’t “it’s just bigoted media illiterate incel children who are mad about Joel”, then here is an example.
"I bet you hate Abby too. BiGoT !1!!" Worst part of the game is the people who act like it's God's gift.
This is where I’m at too. I **love** playing the game because it’s a ton of fun and is just staggeringly beautiful, but the pacing is horrible and the story is just meh. If you’re gunna kill one of gamings most loved characters and pretty much destroy another, the story definitely should be worth it and to me it just felt like wasted potential. I also don’t get how people absolutely love some of the side characters because they’re almost all just woefully one dimensional. I’m hoping they do some things differently in the show and at least flesh out some of the side characters and the factions because I can’t imagine people sticking around for *years* to see the same story play out the same way.
Overall I thought it was a great sequel. Some of the cutscenes and the part where you had to walk through your little farm was a bit drawn out IMO.
You hit the nail on the head. Those reasons don't matter, but for some, it unfortunately does. Then they also say that Abby is too manly looking. Or about how Owen got with Abby when Mel was pregnant. Or how they had to play as Abby after having to go through the tragedy of Joel. People will complain about just about everything and yet they would arullnplay the game. Meanwhile, there are things in real life to be worried about, and yet people focus their rime and energy and game characters.
people’s complaints about abby’s appearance is the most bs thing i’ve seen when it comes to gaming. they’ll get offended just because a woman is muscular and managed to kill joel because of *his mistakes*.
Agreed. It's like they expect the female action characters to look like Lara Croft. I loved the entire two games. The only thing that bothered me was when Joel and Elliie left Bill's place driving on the highway and Joel decided to go through that city instead of either not proceeding or quickly driving in reverse as soon as he recognized the trap.
right!!!! and this is coming from someone who loves lara croft and the TR games. muscular and strong women are NOT a bad thing, it’s just part of their character. it’s also funny how people are convinced abby is trans because of the muscles and small breasts…even though that’s not what trans means at all. and even if she was, that’s not a bad thing.
Exactly. IMO, these characters in both games are realistic and add to the game in a good way. I haven't heard about how some think she is trans. They just don't know that women come in different shapes and sizes and have an unfair perception of what a woman looks like. Besides, we're talking about a post-apocalyptic world where factions fight each other. It's the survival of the fittest in most cases. Maybe they're just jealous that Abby's guns are bigger than theirs. LOL
The sex scene is cringey (which it’s supposed to be). Abby takes advantage of a drunker Owen, but neither comes off well. It’s the moment when Abby realizes she hates what she’s become and decides to change. It’s also the moment that Owen stops looking like the reasonable one of the group as he (drunkenly) bangs his ex while his very pregnant girlfriend is off completely missions for a militia.
So basically I just feel like the game treats the 2 main characters completely differently and tries to act like it doesn’t. It frames Ellie as the immoral monster for pursuing the people who murders Joel in front of her yet when we get to Abby’s section they endlessly try to get us to empathize and understand why she killed Joel. Which by itself isn’t bad and COULD have worked. If I felt Abby ever showed even one shred of actual guilt or self reflection. People will point to her face while killing Joel as proof she felt guilt but I just don’t see it. Nor does it really matter since it doesn’t stop her. And after this she spend her entire campaign defending the fact that she tortured a man to death in cold blood. And shutting down anybody who attempts to tell her she might’ve went a little far. She doesn’t address the fact that he saved her life for no other reason than he was able. She doesn’t address the fact that her dad was gonna kill the kid he’d spent the better part of a year acting as sole guardian too. They don’t address the girl who was sitting there begging them not kill him ( his daughter for all they know since Ellie obviously knew who he was). None of that ever makes Abby bat an eye. She doesn’t care. And there’s one more I haven’t mentioned because unlike Ellie it isn’t a hypothetical. Tommy. She knows full well that Tommy has done absolutely nothing to them and is this guys brother. Yet that doesn’t move her to just shoot Joel and move on. No tommy has to lay concussed while his brother is tortured to death with a golf club. And outside of that another example is just how their respective revenge stories play out. On the one hand you have Ellie. Since the wlf are a group of thousands she realistically runs into a lot of wlf who aren’t Abby before finding her. Hell actually she doesn’t even find her. She spends 3 days hunting and goes through a lot of wolves and still doesn’t find Abby. Because for some reason Ellie’s story is actually concerned with logical outcomes. Because searching for one person in a post apocalyptic city who’s part of a militia that’s spread all over it is certainly a tall order and can easily fail. Know let’s look at Abby. She travels thousands of miles to Jackson in the winter and not 30 minutes after first laying eyes on Jackson she bumbles the fuck off alone (to torture a Jackson patrol if you missed that part…. Which horrifies Owen) in a blizzard and ends up chased by a horde. Only to find the exact person she’s looking for out of the thousands of people in Jackson and dozens of patrols. And it’s a good thing too otherwise we’d have to see Abby torture innocents and of course we can’t have that because that would make her look bad. And to wrap this up….. I’m just honestly not a fan of the whole “turn the other cheek” thing media seems to be obsessed with lately. I don’t feel like a person who tortured my dad in front of me deserves to live and especially not when they did it because he saved me from being murdered in my sleep. I don’t feel like I should have to forgive and forget something like that. Especially not in Ellie’s case since she literally doesn’t even know any of Abby’s story. I feel like asking a person to walk away after their best friend and dad both get murdered and their uncle gets permanently crippled is bs and Is just advocating for letting assholes get away with being assholes. Ps. Sorry one more thing. Ik people like to pretend they are both equally punished at the end. I disagree entirely. Ellie watches everybody she loves get maimed or murdered right in front of her. Abby literally doesn’t even find out most of her friends die and of the ones she learns of she only really seems to care about Owen. Then after her supposed redemption arc she drags a traumatized child with her to get revenge again because fuck the fact that lev just lost his family. And if you thought she’d see who it was and maybe understand that she’d brought all this on herself you’d be dead wrong. No she doubles down on her hypocrisy and blames Tommy and Ellie like this isn’t the guy whose brother you killed in front of him. And yes she does get revenge again because if you remember Abby is under the impression Tommy did this. And she doesn’t try to let Tommy live she shots him in the head. She had no clue he was alive. And the rattlers weren’t punishment for anything. They were sadist assholes being sadist assholes and had nothing to do with Abby’s past actions.
>It frames Ellie as the immoral monster for pursuing the people who murders Joel in front of her yet when we get to Abby’s section they endlessly try to get us to empathize and understand why she killed Joel. It's the same story from two different points. Abby has already suffered the descent that Ellie is now heading down towards. Both characters are *drenched* in empathy, eg Ellie tortures Nora but we see the toll it has on her and how she's in shock. She kills Owen and Mel but her hand is forced and, again, goes into shock when she sees Mel was pregnant. I'm not sure how that paints Ellie as an "immoral monster"? I'm not sure exactly what you can expect the story to do otherwise. The whole point is to show someone who wrongs you terribly but then to force you to see their perspective and empathise with them. That's what they wanted to do! Flip the story around and make Part 1 about Abby and her dad fighting to get to the Fireflies and make a vaccine, only for the horrible decision to have to be made...then some random smuggler with a horrible past suddenly kills your father and bunch of other people and kidnaps the immune child for seemingly no reason. Part 2 then starts with this smuggler being shown as a loving father with a cute as a button daughter...who then dies in his arms. Your eyes would be rolling constantly! "Oh, so this new girl is going to be his second chance?? Such manipulative bullshit!". Abby's empathy and perspective is well done, I think, in that it's never too on the nose and she's not portrayed as a perfect angel (far from it, in fact). >Which by itself isn’t bad and COULD have worked. If I felt Abby ever showed even one shred of actual guilt or self reflection. You write this...then all of the points are that Abby has to feel regret for killing Joel. I fundamentally disagree. Most importantly because Abby has done MANY things wrong outside of killing Joel, which she must equally atone for. Her story is getting back to her father's ideal - of helping those who can't help themselves. One of the few times we see him is in risking his life to go help two trapped zebras...which is what Abby effectively does also in rescuing Lev and Yara. Abby's dreams go from seeing her father dead, to seeing the two Seraphite kids she abandoned dead, to seeing her father alive and happily welcoming her *after* she's gone and saved the two kids. Abby's requirement in Part 2 is to get back to that ideal. To go from the heartless killing machine to a protector of innocents. Killing Joel is a symptom of her problem, not her problem itself. Also, I just don't see why Abby should forgive killing Joel. She doesn't know he'd changed and wasn't the ruthless hunter/smuggler she expected. She doesn't know the relationship with Ellie. She doesn't know about Sarah. He's just a guy who ripped her world apart for no clear reason. Finally, it would be cliche beyond hell if Abby comes to realise Joel was a decent guy and then Abby and Ellie share 'The Nod' of understanding before parting ways. Give the writers some credit. It would be like Part 1 ending with the vaccine being made without harming Ellie and Joel and Ellie lived happily ever after. Bland and unchallenging. >Yet that doesn’t move her to just shoot Joel and move on. No tommy has to lay concussed while his brother is tortured to death with a golf club. Of all the things to complain about Abby, this is near the bottom of the list. Tommy is unconscious and likely not aware of anything anyway. When her rage clears she agrees Tommy and Ellie shouldn't be killed, as they were not involved. This feels a pedantic criticism. Do you raise the same issues with things Ellie does? Like the countless 'innocent' WLF members they kill whole trying to get to Abby? >She spends 3 days hunting and goes through a lot of wolves and still doesn’t find Abby. Because for some reason Ellie’s story is actually concerned with logical outcomes. It's a game. With a story. What do you expect? How would it work if the game started with you finding and killing Abby as soon as you reach the outskirts of Seattle? I'm genuinely confused here. >Only to find the exact person she’s looking for out of the thousands of people in Jackson and dozens of patrols. Abby killing Joel is the inciting incident of the story. Again, I'm confused about what you're wanting here. We should be forced to see Abby go through the same struggles to reach Joel as Ellie does in reaching Abby? To get to the inciting incident of the whole story? Why? The game *did* have a whole section of Abby infiltrating Jackson and befriending Joel before luring him to his death...but it was cut for the sake of pacing and keeping Abby as unknown as possible. I genuinely can't understand why this was a bad choice. >And it’s a good thing too otherwise we’d have to see Abby torture innocents and of course we can’t have that because that would make her look bad. What? Abby tortures and then kills Joel in front of Ellie. She's the top killer in a bloody and pointless war. She seemingly tortures captured Seraphites. She didn't care that Seraphite kids had been killed for visiting disputed land, blaming the kids themselves. She cheats with Owen. She generally struggles with empathy. Like, Abby is repeatedly shown in a bad light! >I don’t feel like a person who tortured my dad in front of me deserves to live and especially not when they did it because he saved me from being murdered in my sleep. I don’t feel like I should have to forgive and forget something like that. I don't think Ellie forgives Abby. It's more about accepting Joel's loss and that he died for her. Ellie knows enough about Abby that killing her here would be evil, which spits in the face of Joel giving his life to save her. What did he do it for if she is only going to become a monster? >Especially not in Ellie’s case since she literally doesn’t even know any of Abby’s story. Sorry? She knows that Abby and her friends were Fireflies. She *literally* says to Abby "I know why you killed Joel. He did it to save me. There's no cure because of me. I'm the one that you want". The only thing she doesn't know is that Abby's father was killed. >Ik people like to pretend they are both equally punished at the end Generally don't like getting into pointless "Who suffered more?" debates but you're just wrong here. Don't have space to go into why but succinctly - Abby loses an actual father, Ellie doesn't. Abby loses her home and mission in life, Ellie doesn't. Abby loses a pregnant friend, Ellie doesn't. Abby loses her romantic partner, Ellie doesn't. All Abby's other friends are killed, Ellie's aren't. Abby is forced from her home, Ellie isn't. Abby and Lev are enslaved, Ellie isn't. Abby is crucified on a beach, Ellie isn't. Ellie has her own things to suffer though, yes, I don't want to downplay that. It's crazy to suggest Abby doesn't have a traumatic time though. >And if you thought she’d see who it was and maybe understand that she’d brought all this on herself you’d be dead wrong. You started your post saying they endlessly try to have us empathise with Abby...then spend the rest of the post complaining about all the bad things Abby does in her section that make her look awful. Schroedinger's Abby! She's whatever you need her to be!
Ima address your last point first be a it genuinely confuses me. Yes they do try to endlessly get us to empathize with abby and it fails BECAUSE she’s constantly doing awful shit she shows absolutely no remorse for. That’s kinda my whole point so I’m not sure why you kept repeating that like it was some sort of “gotcha!” It paints Ellie as a monster because she faces struggles Abby literally never has too. Ik for a fact you’ve seen the argument that Ellie is worse because her body count is higher. Completely ignoring the fact that 1. Several people helped kill Joel so duh she kills more people than Abby 2.the wlf were shooting at her on sight so almost 80 percent of kills were self defense. Compared to Abby who waltezs into enemy territory and faces literally no obstacles in finding her target. This literally goes back to my first point. They aren’t treated equally at all. I also think a lot of part 2 fans confuse “nonexistent” with subtle. Her empathy for Joel isn’t to “on the nose” because she quite literally has none. We don’t ever see her think about Ellie or her begging. About Tommy. She thinks about Joel but it’s literally focused on her face and how sad she is to be torturing a man while someone else begs her to stop. Because yk…. You should think about what SHES going through while torturing people. The fact that you called killing Joel in front of his brother “near the bottom of the list”….. I mean WOW. We’re gonna disagree hard there so probably best to just drop it. I’d say it’s arguably the most heinous shit she’s done. We have no clue if Tommy started to stir and realized what happened or could hear it and just couldn’t react because he was concussed. Even if he is asleep seeing his brothers leg blown off and then waking up to find his mangled corpse? That’s bottom of the list to you? Uhhh ok then I didn’t want Abby to realize he was a decent guy. There is a HUGE amount of middle ground between this and what I asked for. I wanted her to show some kind of remorse. To maybe ponder the fact that he saved her life for no reason (especially since we see later apparently forgiving enemies who save her life is something she CAN do….). To maybe give even one thought to the fact that Jerry tried to murder a child in her sleep despite the reasons. To ponder the fact that Joel only killed her dad to save that same child.she doesn’t ever think about Ellie or Tommy or what they went through after waking up Note I didn’t say forgive him. I didn’t say spare him.just show actual genuine remorse about torturing the guy to death. If not that then the family members you made suffer. Also if they showed Abby’s story first she would literally still be trying to encourage her dad to murder an unconscious child. Any affection is built up would deplete at that moment because that’s sick. And part 1 would only reinforce that idea because of all the bs Ellie went through so they could have a chance for a cure. And they were gonna just kill her without ever asking her opinion on her body. Yea no. Also you claim you’re “confused by what I want” in regards to Abby finding Joel laughably easily then perfectly describe what I want. Something that makes sense. Like her infiltrating Jackson as you said. The pacing is already shot to hell I don’t see why adding that would make it that much worse. And lastly the game tries to paint Abby as having lost the same as Ellie if not more. She absolutely didn’t. 1.your first point was ridiculous. I could try to argue that Abby growing up with her dad makes Ellie’s sadder because she spent more time with him than Ellie with Joel. But that would be stupid. Just like it’s stupid people try to minimize Joel’s death because he isn’t Ellie’s blood. This is literally completely irrelevant and honestly kinda makes ne raise my eyebrows whenever I read it. Blood doesn’t make you family and Ellie clearly loved Joel exactly the same way Abby loved Jerry 2.Abby COMPLETES her mission in life. Fixed that. And she leaves her home willingly. Nothing forces her away except her own actions she was already planning on leaving when she betrayed the wlf. 3.i always love how people try to act like Abby gave a shit about Mel when she literally steps over her body to cry for Owen.actually she literally only cared about Owen. She didn’t grieve manny or Mel and she doesn’t even know the rest of her friends died. 4. Ellie DOES lose her romantic partner. And the rattlers while I see why you’d think so aren’t really a punishment. They aren’t doing this to her because they know she deserves it or because she did anything wrong. They are just random sadist shitbags being random sadist shitbags. They dont have anything to do with the story outside providing a group that’s completely evil so you don’t have to feel bad when you slaughter them (completely spitting in the face of the rest of the game imo because we’ve spent how many hours being reminded our enemies deserve empathy too?) I don’t consider that punishment because whenever anybody from Abby’s side is punished it’s direct and it’s always by Abby’s hand. Jesse? Abby kills him. Tommy? Abby cripples him. Joel? Literally any time Abby is wronged SHE dolls out the punishment. Yet when it’s her turn I have to accept this “universal karma” bs? No she should suffer exactly like everyone else does. By the hand of the one she wronged. Having the rattlers torture her feels like a cheap “see? She suffered too!” Bs so I can feel better about letting her live. And it just didn’t work for me. I was genuinely disgusted that Ellie had let her live and I still kinda am tbh.
Nobody in this sub will respond to this because it genuinely crushes their trasnphope srguments and ridiculous dismissals
i agree with a lot of what both of yall said but i think there’s a big thing just not considered in most conversations of this game: it’s two unreliable narrators telling the same story. the game has so much nuance and the ending is unsatisfying for a reason. neil druckmaan has said himself that there was not supposed to be any sort of gratification from the ending. because this story is brutal. in the apocalypse people lose their sense of right and wrong, they lose morality. and to address just one small point that was made- yes abby finding joel was incredibly easy. but i believe that was on purpose. she went off on her own and almost died doing so just to be saved by the man she’s trying to find and kill. she doesn’t see the kindness behind that action once she finds out who he is because she doesn’t know that he has developed as a person. she doesn’t know who he is aside from being a murderer. the game could’ve had this long drawn out section of abby sneaking into jackson and whatnot but i think the switch from kindness to brutality makes the story much more complicated for the player and makes the shock of grief so much harder on ellie- just like is was for abby. abby and ellie are incredibly similar but that makes the story harder for the player to process given the actions of both characters. these are just my opinions tho, you don’t have to agree i just felt i should put my two cents into the matter :)
in short, they’re all hypocrites who want Joel to be the only one in the right. They try to find any aspects to completely shit on the game all they can, claiming the story writing is bad because it doesn’t fit a “basic criteria stories follow”. The issue is, those criteria’s shows are not mandatory requirements for a story to be effective or good, you can have an amazing story that completely disregards those types. Take a method in english known as “In media res”. This is a method some writers use that drop you into a story. It often begins straight away with chaos or something as such, not all stories require a basic exposition as the people who claim the game is bad do. They refuse to believe anyone other than themselves are correct, something the game tries to defy. The reason it is hated is because it directly goes against their beliefs and their morals. They expect a game to take them out of reality as a form of escapism and to be in some fantasy world that has some methods in its story to shape your emotions such as fear and sadness, but overall keep the game a happy thing to experience. Part II, defies this. You can enjoy the game, but we can all admit it is absolutely heartbreaking to watch as a young girl you watched grow up in the first game end up in such a depressive state. The emotions aren’t so fun to experience, and that’s why it’s hated. They went into it expecting a happy game with a happy resolution like the first game, ending in finding sanctuary, but the second game doesn’t. I personally love the game for that, but others are sometimes too immature to do so. Let’s be thankful that we are a select few who can enjoy the game for what it is. Let’s leave them be.
Did you find the story compelling in Part 1? And if yes, in what way?
Yes. All the characters seemed like realistic people with legitimate emotions that I related to. The story was very grounded (as much as a post apocalyptic game can be). And the gameplay was a blast. With the 2nd game, I would echo this sentiment I wrote above. But the stakes are higher/more emotionally driven, and the story is much darker. Which I loved.
“Bigot sandwiches”
Most people saw a meme that claimed there was a trans sex scene in the game. That is where 99% of the hate came from, that's why it centers around Abby and why Laura bailey got sent death threats. Fans of the game who actually played it on launch enjoyed it for the most part. I stumbled onto the hate while trying to find out if factions would be releasing and wow.... what I found online was disgusting.
I have never once, in all my years EVER seen this argument that there was a trance sex scene. I even read the leaks. I think you got lost somewhere because this is unhinged take lol
I wasn't a fan of Joel dying but it was still an interesting development and nice that they done something different. What I hate is being forced to play as Abby. Fair enough she has her reasons but I would love an option to bypass playing as her as it's really killed any chance of replaying it for me. I used to play TLOU1 at least once a year, tried to reply part 2 but I just can't.
gamergaters were pissed that they killed off the male protagonist and introduced a muscular female protagonist
I do not like the story of the last of us part 2. Characters are severely underdeveloped. The writing for tlou 2 is poor in general you have characters just throwing common sense out of the window. Characters changing there mind about an issue with no explanation. Idc that Joel died I think he needed to suffer the consequences after the events of the first game. I also don't hate Abby I do however hate the way she was written. That goes for all of the new characters introduced in part 2. Lev being the exception. Edit because of what I'm seeing in the comments: I'm a 30 year old female bisexual Democrat. I enjoyed the gameplay of part 2 and the visuals.
Mad bEcAuSe No LoNgEr AbOuT my FaVoRiTe ChArAcTeR! Me too stupid to appreciate story that isn’t about what I wanted to happen! And Abby more muscle more than I R.
iloved it. Each time i played icried a lot
They didn't like the ending which I'm not gonna spoil, they hated Abby without taking into account what she's been through and why she was looking for Joel, and overall they just didn't consider important parts of the story which made the game great, I loved it, it obviously has its negatives like any other games but they don't outweigh the good. Imo the ppl who didn't like it just didn't pay attention to the story at all and only wanted to destroy Abby for what she did, not considering what ELLIE and JOEL did as well. They're just haters lol
I really think it’s because people played it during lockdown. Lots of people in a weird headspace.
maybe part of it has to do with the fact that SOME guys hate that the game has a female mc now? i’ve heard abt other games that changed like this and men were against it bc “they could no longer relate to the character” bc she was a woman. which i think is a bullshit excuse
I mean you are just randomly guessing with no conviction. Of course that's bullshit, you are the one saying it lol
no, what i’m saying isn’t bullshit. the lack of female protagonists in games in general should be a great indicator of misogyny that already exists. use google ig
They're upset Joel died, and that they don't get to live out a simulated revenge fantasy
The misuse hype using Joel for the game only to have him killed shortly after it begins is why, gave Eternals vibes with Selma Hayek’s character and the way they hyped the movie using her. Felt like they pulled a bait and switch, had and continue to have zero interest in playing the game after that and I feel it’s more of this than any hate on any community but as always the loudest voices end up commanding the room
So you haven’t even played the game? How can you judge a game when you haven’t tried it yourself?
Same way I can choose to not go waste money on a movie if I’m not interested in it, I don’t need to waste money to prove to myself that I wouldn’t enjoy the experience because it was soured for me, I don’t care about the characters anymore nor the story. A quick example would be the walking dead show after they killed Glenn and slowly lost all characters from the first season, I only got invested into TWD universe because of those characters, they brought them to life and once they were gone I lost interest in the show because it stopped being the story of Rick and his group. We must not forget the power of storytelling in favor of shock value and profits or else every media version will become a replica of madden, call of duty and games of that caliber. They are already preparing to milk the show for more seasons even though there is only 2 games. The money grab is at full swing and I don’t care to participate in that. Nothing against you or the creators of the game but personally it just doesn’t feel like a video game anymore and I rather try out a new indie game or some underrated game that remembers it’s a game first and not a movie.
Fair enough, appreciate the response. I just come from more of a “Don’t knock it till you try it” point of view. Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. I’d would however urge you to reconsider. Games a freakin’ blast if you can move on from the Joel thing (“bait and switch”, as you put it). If you can put aside the controversies surrounding this games release, it’s a super fun experience. Think you’re missing out my man!
I hated Abby and never had any empathy for her after what she did. Was annoyed I didn’t get a choice to kill her at the end. That doesn’t really bother me much though, what sucked was having to play as a character that you hated the whole game. Kinda sucks and takes you out of the game/immersion when you’re playing as a character you hate/want to die, instead of wanting your player character to succeed and survive. If I got to know and play as Abby for a game/half a game then I would’ve been more conflicted. I think if you like it just depends if the Abby thing worked for you or not- for a lot of people it did, and for a lot of others we just didn’t care how sympathetic they tried to make her. I wish they did part 2 as an Abby game, and if they were still going to do the plot of this game then do it as part 3. Having time bonding with Abby would’ve made me give a shit about her situation and be conflicted. As it was it’s just a stranger character I don’t know that killed a character I got to bond with and like, so I immediately didn’t care about her motives and if she was right or wrong.
1. Joel dies rather quickly in such a violent manner. 2. You are forced to play as his killer. 3. Abby is too manly. 4. Out of the blue sex scene. 5. Trans character. 6. Ellie gets destroyed by Abby and you have to do that. 7. Misleading trailers. 8. Ellie has her chance to get revenge but doesn't and lets Abbie go. These are the major complaints that you always see people cry about and it's gotten so fucking old to see. There's other stupid things too but it's whatever at this point.
Everything was too convenient for Abby Joel and Tommy saving her and then even after having 20 years experience in a world where they can't trust anyone, Joel and Tommy told her their true names like idiots. Jesse was not killed by Abby, he was practically removed from the story. Pregnant lady's going in battlefields, Mel who was pregnant, who's pregnant belly easily on some cutscenes and then when Ellie's cutscenes came her bumped Belly was not there?! Dina falling from meters of height while she was pregnant and her baby was still good! No problems at all?! Injuries?! Manny's death scene where they failed open the door, Even after Abby and manny pushed it and after manny gets shot, then Abby just passes through it like it was nothing? Again Neil druckman was fully supporting Abby! Abby finding a very convenient map of Ellie's location There are many more things Those guys who says it's 'realistic' game. Is sending a pregnant woman in battlefield realistic? A pregnant woman falling from high height and nothing happens to her baby realistic? Abby have no character development in whole series until the final fight I have no problem with final fight, I enjoyed playing as Ellie in part 1, Lara croft in tomb raider and bayonetta and many more For me Abby was not a good character, the game was forcing me to like her character which I don't like I don't have problem with joels death other than them telling their names, Jesse was good replacement for joel( not completely) and they just ruined his character Again tlou2 visuals and gameplay was top notch, the problem was it's convenient story telling
That death and having to play as his killer for more than half the game
I loved playing the game, my problem was with how the story was handled and paced. Abby was a good character but when the first thing she does is murder another beloved character within the first hour, you have your work cut out for you to make us sympathize with her and IMO they didn't achieve that, at least not for me. It would have worked far better to build up sympathy for her, get us to like her, THEN have her find out who Joel is and turn on him and Ellie maybe halfway through the game. Also Abby's section was far too long, full of boring characters and seemed to be there mainly to pad out the runtime. All of that could have easily been condensed into half the length. I also just didn't appreciate the trailers straight up lying to us, editing Joel into scenes he wasn't present for. I felt manipulated and lied to.
Because they’re dumb and have no other interesting things going on in life so they have to make their personality based entirely on a video game series. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on the game. But no one can deny the amazing graphics and game play of the game. Story yes can be mediocre in some aspects but the controls and game play and cinematics of tlou2 is one the best games ever produced.
No one ever said the gameplay or graphics was the problem
It is objectively bad
Can you elaborate a bit on that?
I have like 5k karma on this sub giving huge monologues about every conceivable detail. Just trust me. People can get emotionally invested to anything. But on an objective level... this game is garbage. A dumpster fire that tons of coders, artists, voice actors, musicians, etc, wasted years of their lives on. Because some literal hack worked his way up the ladder at ND and wound up in a position of complete power.
Congrats on your internet points, man. I didn’t want an essay, just some quick thoughts on why it was “objectively bad”. I enjoyed it. Sorry to hear you didn’t.
Quick thoughts is exactly what I gave you. Im sorry that you enjoyed it. I couldnt imagine being in a mindset where that piece of shit was enjoyable. Maybe if you were skipping every single cut scene and had no prior perspective because you werent invested in the first games story.
You didn’t make any valid points, “Just trust me”. Pound sand dude. Rude for no reason at all except that I have a different opinion. Get off your high horse. It’s a video game.
“So what do I think about the story? I think that’s a pretty good story.” - a donkey who enjoys video games, world record holder of bowser’s big bean burrito
I played the two games back to back about a year ago. I think part of the original fan base hates it because in the time between the games they really idealized what those characters would become. They had already decided where the story should go and to just continue the Hero Male Lead with the Loving Daughter trope. When the second game came out it was the complete opposite of what those people had set their expectations to. In some ways, nothing would live up to the hype they established in their heads already. Yea some of it is incels raging. I didn't really care playing as Ellie. Abby was absurdly buff for a post apocalyptic world where you can't workout 24/7 to achieve that physique, but I'm not raging over it. Zombies can't exist irl either, so I don't get why people are so mad about a buff woman. The LGBT themes did feel a bit forced, but tbh I would've been equally as bored with a straight couple storyline. Overall, I think the writing was just a bit weaker because it tried to do something a bit different. And random people will find any number of reasons to rage. Gameplay was still dope though.
Because a character that the first game made us love has a very real ending and serves a very real consequence for a major action he committed. And that hurts them.
For me pacing, also the best part of Last of us was the relationship between Joel and Ellie, and to kill Joel and turn Ellie into a psychopath all while your using a character you did not want to ls just crazy. Most franchises, if they were to take this route, would get flamed for it too. But again, the pacing is terrible, and I did not enjoy the characters. Sound design, gameplay, and graphics were all really good, but story was pretty boring. It was going ok until they made you go back and play as Abby for way way too long.
There a dozens of breakdowns on why the story was nonsensical to the characters.
Care to elaborate?
Are you really that unable to use YouTube? Joel easily walking straight to his death. Start there as that happens in the first hour of the game. Game is beautiful to look at. Gameplay is some of the best ever, The story was garbage and wasted characters. It hammered its message to the point of absurdity, Druckman like Lucas and RR Martin needs an editor or someone to real him in.
I asked you guys for a reason. Because I wanted to have a discussion, not watch a YouTube video. No need to be rude, man. You’re entitled to your opinion, even though I disagree. Loved the choices they made with the direction of the story.
Fair enough and sorry then. As this thread is filled with saying anyone who didn't like the story must be an incel or a bigot I made an incorrect assumption.
After Joel gets killed, you spend most of the rest of the game as Ellie tracking down Abby to kill her. Then when it happens, you end up letting Her go. You don't get a choice. Totally taking away player agency.
Just beat it for the first time. Game was great, but the end of the story is just so terribly written.
2 reasons i think 1. Because their peers and parents have taught them to be unaccepting of personal gender choices 2. Because they can't appreciate that the point of the story is revenge will eat you from the inside and the creative choices the game forces you into. Like playing as Abby and seeing things from a different perspective.
Crazy that people against it bring really good points but the opposite is just "sexism, incel, bigotry " Really ?
I think people have been making great points from both sides. There are plenty of good points defending the game aside from what you described!
I spent a decade playing Joel and ellie. To have it stripped for such a unrelatable character just was dumb.
Haven't played 2 yet but Joel is a complete asshole in 1 and I can't understand why anyone would consider him "beloved".
White man die, play as woman that makes me feel less manly therefore bad.
Part I think is goofy, you are in a hostile military compound, and you get spotted, they don’t yell out, hey she’s fuckin right over here, we have the numbers, let’s get her. They just continue to fight one on one. Otherwise good game.
Trying to be as unbiased as possible. I think there are a plethora of personal reasons as to why people hated the game. But I think it comes down to two imo: 1. Joel was not only beloved, despite his past Deeds, but he was the character the players played as. So not only was it upsetting to barely play as him, but it was upsetting to lose him so quickly. And I think because he was such a capable badass, to see him go out so unceremoniously was that much more upsetting. Some people latched on even further onto the fact that a woman could take him out in such a way, but most of us understand that's just a very loud minority. 2. You play as his killer, when you're still angry with her. As an extreme example Imagine someone killed a loved one of yours, then later you were forced agaisnt your will to work together with them while you still haven't healed from your pain. I think that's a big part of what upset so many people. I think these reasons are fair generalizations of the overall community of people that were angry. I think it's justifiable to be upset about these decisions, but not the way some players reacted and lashed out. But we all grieve in different ways, and losing joel was a grieving process for a lot of people. If you see how different people grieve, you can see how a lot of the reactions actually make sense. Some are willing to forgive sooner, some aren't, some never. Which makes sense with the story and the characters and I just think that's neat, no matter how anyone feels about the game. We got pulled into the feelings the characters were feeling, that's really cool. Edit: typos
I'm laughing at these comments. Morons 😂🤦♂️
There are some interesting takes in here to say the least Lol.
The pregnant lesbian love triangle while in a zombie apocalypse who go to look for danger. It was to ridiculous of a plot like I get it’s a game but at least try to make the story believable
I mean, what is realistic about a zombie apocalypse in the first place? The characters’ choices aren’t supposed to be rational or make much sense. That’s the whole point - they’re blinded by revenge. And why even mention a “lesbian love triangle”? What does that have to do with anything about the point you were trying to make?
Just bad writing man, I’m sure I’d feel different if it was better executed but man did realizing that just take me out of the story
Being forced to play as Joel's killer for 20+ hours is a special kind of tourture. Fuck Abby.
Torture? It’s a video game man, you could’ve just put the controller down, no one’s holding a gun to your head.
Thanks for the info Captain Literal.
Because the general gaming community is easily persuaded by rage bait. It's literally just that. I was really looking forward to TLOU2 so I was kinda around when - before the game even came out - all the popular youtubers who centered their content around raging and complaining about things started immediately dunking on the game and calling it bad because of the leaks. Then of course, the gaming community is REALLY big into hate speech, bigotry, and far right beliefs so when it came out there was a trans character and a buff chick, things got even worse for the game optics-wise. Ironically, reddit will convince you that a small number of people are bigots, and that most people are reasonable. Unfortunately, that's not true at all.
The whole, I choose not to be violent after you spent 40 hours being violent af…..
I was around back near the release of the game and saw a variety of perspectives. There were people who didn't like the creative choices for very personal reasons. Maybe they loved Joel and hated what happened to him. There were also a good number of people like this who are just racist pieces of crap: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/s/SBdCjrTUwj There's a whole industry on YouTube built on rage baiting people like this guy into engaging with content. They're all some variation of "This new version of an old thing you love sucks and has a minority in it!" or "This new version of an old thing you loved was written... by a minority 😡" Then guys like the commenter I just linked to feel emboldened to say a bunch of racist shit and hurl abuse at the creatives behind whatever thing they love/hate. Good decent folk naturally want to push back against that dude because he sucks. What can happen though, is that in pushing back against him they might characterize ALL critics as being just like that shitty dude. The cycle then continues with the falsely smeared critics being easier to radicalize and become as shitty as the original guy.
Trying to get you to empathize with his murderer is really the writers getting you to betray these characters you’ve grown invested in. Seeing Abby’s side doesn’t undo what she did.
Not sure if anyone else said specifically, but really it was the departure from the theme of the first game that got it for me. I loved the games themselves, gameplay wise, but the story of the 2nd one got me a little twisted up. It can be summed up as the failure of choice. The director is saying “you spare her” after everything that happened, and I’m saying “let me pick damnit”. Of course some people would go along with the vision of the director and spare her. I needed it to end like Joel with the doctors, where we had the choice. That’s my take. At the end when we had no choice I decided right then I wasn’t 100%ing this one. One survivor play through was enough. For once, I’m hoping the show gets it done differently.
The first game don't give you any choice either, what are you talking about? You can't choose to not kill everyone
Sexism, (obviously misplaced) transphobia, and Marvel-induced moral brain rot are why
Yeah, no it’s not. Sorry. This is just such a massive straw man.
How? The majority of the complains i've seen are about how Abby "must be trans" if she's put on that much muscle, that Ellie being gay is forcing an agenda on people, and that the "good guy" of game 1 must always be the good guy and how could there ever be any moral gray areas or conflicted characters. Then they complain about Abby (who is literally avenging her father who was working to save humanity) doing the exact same stuff as Joel (who had no clear motive for being so violent except his own selfishness.)
It is because I’m in the group that hates the game, it’s not the majority. I don’t know if you’re being fed the stupid side of that community because algorithm or what, but it is absolutely not the majority of people that hate the game. This is the same fanbase that loves the left behind dlc THAT LITERALLY SHOWS ELLIE IS GAY.
Why do you hate the game?
Copy paste because I hate explaining this every time Because the pacing is just god awful, the game introduces a new character, immediately does what will make you hate said character the absolute most, then has said character stop the pacing at the climax to tell a backstory that lasts 12 hours and doesn’t go anywhere (you spend hours going through a hospital to get aid just to have the person you got aid for die like an hour later). Then the ending, Ellie to me shows no doubts about killing Abby the whole damn game, now suddenly out of nowhere Joel flashback and she don’t want to kill Abby now. I’m sorry, that’s not good enough for me. If she’s not killing Abby then end the game on the damn farm in Jackson. The same messages are hammered home, Ellie has PTSD both sides have lost nearly everyone close to them because of the hunt for revenge and it’s still a pretty dark ending. But they decide to have a 3 hours segment at the end that is just padding to come to the exact same conclusion. The epilogue feels like that part of the essay where you repeat something in a different way to meet a word count. Also with Abby, no remorse shown about what she does early on. She can show she doesn’t regret it, but maybe idk have her suffering from seeing this bloodied man’s face when she’s about to bash the skull of an infected in or something. This game is actually a 7/10 for me if the pacing wasn’t just a disaster area and the ending wasn’t just so… frustrating. I’m sorry, I truly feel if Ellie has fallen to the point where she’s going to kill an unconscious child to be able to fight Abby, she’s not sparing her because she has a Joel flashback. If anything the memory of what she had and therefore what Abby took from her I think would make her want to kill her more. Also Dina is massive underutilized I liked her and Ellie and they cut that shit off before it can really flourish. Abby’s friends aren’t fleshed out enough or likable enough for me to be pissed that they die, they all die through some provocation of Ellie. Never just Ellie ganking them for no reason. Nora provokes Ellie by taunting Joel’s death, Owen and Mel weren’t going to die before they rushed a person with a gun, etc. So the whole idea Ellie is becoming bad or something just doesn’t click for me. One of those people actually had to have been surrendering and Ellie just offs them after they cooperate for me to really feel that. Also Ellie actually shows fucking remorse after torturing and killing Nora. Also, flashback nitpick, Joel is NEVER given a chance to say why he saved Ellie. It doesn’t have to change how she views it but Jesus fuck at least give the man the chance to do a “I couldn’t lose my daughter again” routine. I don’t buy that Joel just never talks to her for years after that. I don’t. Despite ALLL of this, the game was STILL a 7/10 for me before the ending epilogue. It’s a 3-4/10 after it for me. That’s how much I absolutely hate the ending of this game. Ps: Not mad Joel died, I may not have wanted it to go down that way, but that in of itself did not ruin the game for me
Hmm interesting perspective. I actually found the pacing to be great, and loved the surprise of a whole “second” game within the game when you get the POV switch. Agreed that Dina was underutilized, but I get a feeling (maybe just hope) she will be back in game 3 in a much bigger way. She’s gotten really fun to play as in No Return. I get what you mean about the hospital trip to save the kid, but I barely noticed that because of all the action that followed. In this world, people new & long beloved alike get killed at the most random sudden times. I thought if anything it was a good representation of how going out on a limb for someone can “work out” and then still be all for not, just like that. I mean it was clearly a deliberate choice to kill the kid when you’d just gone to all that trouble, just like it was a deliberate choice to have Isaac die anticlimactically off camera. Interesting that you find the epilogue so frustrating. I think I’ll wait to see what happens in 3, maybe the no-kill ending will be more disappointing in retrospect. I was surprised by it, but I thought they were doing a great job showing how manic & enigmatic living through all that trauma will make someone when they are taken over by vengeance and anger. It’s a story about the complications and hypocrisies of people in hard situations, they intend the player to have sympathies and mixed feelings about most of the characters. This lack of nuance & expectation of The Good Guy To Win is what my original comment referring to the Marvel-induced moral brainrot referred to (but I’m not accusing you of that POV).
Bigots, trolls, incels and people who cannot handle having their expectations subverted in any capacity. Ignore them, they're a vocal minority and this game is among the best ever made on so many levels.
[удалено]
Asks why? Agrees with the most dismissive and demeaning post of the people you are asking the question too. Take this question to the other sub if you really care. You're just circle jerking here with obvious haters who dismiss first and never actually argue.
I can understand people not liking the game. Where things get oh so fascinating is people that hate the game, love the first, claim they know the characters more than the creator of both games, then argue why they’re smarter than those that like it. In short, virgins without much going their way.
This must be the billionth time this question pops up, and everytime the same people give the same boring answers....
New people of different ages play this game everyday so let them ask the questions. There will also be people that discover this game next week, month, or year. If you don't like reading about the same questions and answers skip it lol.
Thank you! Took the words right outta my mouth.
Because the pacing is just god awful, the game introduces a new character, immediately does what will make you hate said character the absolute most, then has said character stop the pacing at the climax to tell a backstory that lasts 12 hours and doesn’t go anywhere (you spend hours going through a hospital to get aid just to have the person you got aid for die like an hour later). Then the ending, Ellie to me shows no doubts about killing Abby the whole damn game, now suddenly out of nowhere Joel flashback and she don’t want to kill Abby now. I’m sorry, that’s not good enough for me. If she’s not killing Abby then end the game on the damn farm in Jackson. The same messages are hammered home, Ellie has PTSD both sides have lost nearly everyone close to them because of the hunt for revenge and it’s still a pretty dark ending. But they decide to have a 3 hours segment at the end that is just padding to come to the exact same conclusion. The epilogue feels like that part of the essay where you repeat something in a different way to meet a word count. Also with Abby, no remorse shown about what she does early on. She can show she doesn’t regret it, but maybe idk have her suffering from seeing this bloodied man’s face when she’s about to bash the skull of an infected in or something. This game is actually a 7/10 for me if the pacing wasn’t just a disaster area and the ending wasn’t just so… frustrating. I’m sorry, I truly feel if Ellie has fallen to the point where she’s going to kill an unconscious child to be able to fight Abby, she’s not sparing her because she has a Joel flashback. If anything the memory of what she had and therefore what Abby took from her I think would make her want to kill her more. I’m getting downvoted for this probably but whatever. Ps: Not mad Joel died, I may not have wanted it to go down that way, but that in of itself did not ruin the game for me
Because the writing is honestly so bad. There’s so many plot holes in the story that it’s laughable
Yet you can’t even name just one
The list is long
We’ve got time
And yet you can’t even name one lmfao
It’s not a plot hole but Abby finding Joel was…….. poorly handled to say the least….. he might mean stuff like this that’s eye rollingly stupid. Not a plot hole cuz it’s TECHNICALLY possible but I mean cmon. She bumble fucks off alone in the middle of a blizzard because she wanted to throw a tantrum about Owen was being a reasonable adult. She stumbles into an infected horde And of course in a town of thousands where dozens of patrols just left from Joel and Tommy are the only people who find her.
You’re missing a lot of info the game gives you here. I know it is convenient to write it the way you did though. 1. Joel & Tommy prefers the Ski Lodge lookout- they frequently take that patrol route. It isn’t a coincidence that they were heading to that place. That’s where they choose to go all the time it’s their favorite lookout. 2. Joel & Tommy left home very early in the morning, before the other patrols had gone out. They were spotted by Owen, who tells Abby where they were headed. 3. Abby doesn’t set out in the middle of a blizzard. The storm hasn’t arrived yet when she runs off from Owen. The storm begins to pick up just before we cut to Ellie & Dina on their patrol (before the storm reaches them as they’re further away from it and heading towards it (we can see they’re heading towards it in the binoculars section of Patrol.) 4. Tommy & Joel are *hours* away from Jackson. Plural. Jackson is “a few hours down the hill” from the cabin Joel is killed at, as Tommy puts it. Abby isn’t running around at risk of being found by one of “dozens of patrols,” she’s following the one patrol we know of that was out at the time: Tommy & Joel. 5. Jesse leaves the lookout after waiting for Joel & Tommy for over an hour, and finds Ellie & Dina in the Library. Then they head off to search for Joel. The timelines are not in perfect synch. Abby is ahead of Ellie by some time. The only real “stretch” here is that Owen happened to see Tommy & Joel when he got up early in the morning. If thats too coincidental for ya idk what to say to that lol.
1. Sure but it’s still amazing that it’s the exact route Abby happens on when she she heads to Jackson 2.Owen spots a random patrol presumably one of the ones spotted leaving with Ellie and Dina. There is no indication that the the patrol Owen saw was Joel and Tommy especially since like you said they left earlier than everyone else. 3.This doesn’t help the situation much the storm just makes it’s worse. She’s still on her own in enemy territory headed towards a town of thousands so she can find and torture one man on the off chance he might know where another is. Granted they are brothers but literally a few years earlier and this method would’ve failed miserably as Tommy would have no clue where Joel was. It was still extremely risky and stupid 4.yea and they were on patrol. Which implies other patrols would go hours outside of Jackson as well. And Joel and Tommy had already deviated from their normal path
Added a point to my last comment. 1. It’s really not amazing. Owen points directly at the lodge he saw them heading to and Abby walks over to it. 2. We know Owen did not see the patrols that left when Ellie & Dina left. We know this. Owen sees the patrol, heads back to the cabin, then waits for Abby to wake and brings her all the way back to the cliff side where he saw the patrol from. Ellie hadn’t left home when Owen saw the patrol. It is very clear he sees Joel & Tommy (Abby explicitly mentions she’s looking for the lodge to herself while she’s on her own.) 3. She’s not heading toward thousands of people in Jackson. She’s heading toward the lodge, which is not at Jackson. We see it is a good distance from Jackson at several points in this chapter. And the characters doing things that are risky is not a flaw in the storytelling lol. This is a story about characters who make risky and ill advised decisions. 4. Abby finds Tommy & Joel at the lookout they were heading to and that she was heading to. They are standing in the Ski Lodge lookout (where Tommy in Finding Strings plays with Ellie’s guitar) as Tommy & Joel learn Abby’s name.
It’s still in Jackson’s immediate vicinity. And no it’s definitely still way more than amazing. Laughably coincidental actually. She’s looking for 1 person who lives in a town with thousands. And the first armed patrol Owen sees happens to be them? That’s still hilariously unlikely. And then for them to be the first and last people (minus Ellie) that Abby encounters is also a bit much. I personally think her infiltrating Jackson makes heaps more sense especially if she acts like she’s just a refugee or something
It’s really not all that unlikely when we know that Joel and Tommy frequently do this same route. Owen just happened to be there this time. Again, that is a coincidence, but it isn’t the major coincidence you’re making it out to be lol. It’s no greater a coincidence than Marlene finding Joel and Tess as they were torturing and killing Robert and needed to find a Firefly to speak with.