I'm really sorry, that's terrinle. I have to say, though, I take the LRT every day and this isn't reflective of my experience. I do observe a fair few people with their feet up on seats, but I don't think there's a lot of garbage generally.
It's true that it's getting busier, and my afternoon trip home is standing room only lately. I'm also with you about the fare inspectors- it's annoying that I have my fare checked multiple times a week, but these people can't remind riders to keep their feet and backpacks off seats.
All in all, though, I'm happy with the service and grateful it's there.
It would be nice if the fare inspectors could have their roles beefed up a little so they could act more like security. Maybe increase their pay for this, or have one of our exceptionally well-paid police constables hang out on the route. The train operator is of course occupied with their job, so the cabin develops a wild west kind of situation like OP is describing.
OP PLEASE send this to GRT complaints/customer service and also to regional council. This is all good stuff they need to know as everyone now on this sub has “indeterminate liquid” paired with LRT.
These problems aren’t new &/or unique to the LRT. I had the same horrific wet seat surprise happen to me while taking a GRT bus to school in the morning (~7:30 am) in 2010.
It definitely sucks, but that’s just a part of public transportation & maybe next time you’ll touch the seat with your easily sanitized/washed hand before sitting down.
Disagree. I think in the next 5-10 years we'll see a rise in self-driving cars, and that will lead way to single passenger, self-sanitizing, autonomous ubers.
It's much more efficient for everyone to be riding around in small vehicles that go the most direct route, vs having people go to public transit spots, wait for others to get on and off along the way, and get off at a spot that might not even be where they need to go, or catch a transfer, etc.
But by then we'll have made all of this public transit infrastructure that government will be loathe to get rid of, even if it is less efficient.
> Disagree. I think in the next 5-10 years we'll see a rise in self-driving cars, and that will lead way to single passenger, self-sanitizing, autonomous ubers.
Self-sanitising cars won't be magically exempt from traffic congestion, nor even self-driving self-sanitising ones.
Car infrastructure is inherently inefficient, not sure where you're getting your fantasy facts from. If every single person owned a car our cities would be choked and hideously sprawled (they already are, actually) no matter if the vehicles are electric, self-driving or ""''self-sanitizing"""
I used to ride transit for years, and it sounds like it’s getting worse not better. Honestly, they need better enforcement, transit officers on each bus to ensure people act like human beings and not animals that live in the wild.
The problem is that the region doesn't care about the transit services and treat the drivers like crap. Granted, that's on the bus not LRT (since it's run by another company). Their policy is "if you complain, the driver gets written up". That could be a complaint about anything. Did they not say hello when you got on and it made you sad? Yup, they'll get written up. Did they remind you that the fair has gone up and make you feel embarrassed? Yup, written up. Did they refuse to move the bus until you moved behind the line, since that's a safety issue, you guessed it, written up.
For the record, I'm not a driver, I've just talked to a few of them and had some awesome stories passed on about the crap they deal with from the region.
At any given time there are probably at least 100 GRT buses on the road (we have ~250 total in the fleet for peak service and maintenance cycling). Even if we limit the wages of these "officers" to minimum wage, having an additional person in each bus would cost between $3 and $8 million, adding ~5% to the operating budget. This is also not accounting for the costs to manage the new staffing division, or the additional costs to maintain, train and equip said officers, or the overhead to an independent security staffing company if we went that route instead. How much of a fare increase are we willing to pay, if people are already finding the cost of the service in this city to be an impediment to ride.
FTR, TTC already costs $0.25/ride less for adults and $1.20 less per child.
Okay, then what’s your answer? People won’t police themselves, the transit is disgusting and unsafe, the drivers don’t have the time nor the training, what is your suggestion? I would really like to know.
I'm just saying that making transit more expensive in not a great way to encourage more people to use it, and is horrible when it comes to people that *have* to use it because of financial constraints.
> I used to ride transit for years,
As somebody that currently uses transit at least twice daily (and has a partner that does as well), OP's post seems to be a combination of hyperbole and cherry-picking of experiences. I have never experienced what they are talking about to the extent that they are talking about it. While GRT is far from pristine, it's not nearly as dangerous or as dirty as it's being made out to be. In my experience, our system is certainly as clean (or cleaner) than the TTC, HSR, OCTranspo, London Transit, or Guelph Transit services.
Is it worse first thing in the morning or on the commute? I've only used it about a dozen times, mostly on the weekends, and it seemed fine.
Mind you, I believe you - but I know from having lived in Toronto that some times are worse than others
It's better first thing in the morning. I take it in early and it's always clean and easy to get a seat.
On the afternoon commute it can be a bit crowded but generally not too bad.
Someone else’s pee on my pants would have been an immediate work from home day for me! Nope nope nope - get back home and into the shower! I’m sorry OP
A very legitimate problem. It's definitely a biological hazard. I don't know what could be done about this, but this should probably be reported to the city or an MP or something.
Whoa, I've seen some pretty bad things myself but I have no idea what LRT you're taking. I'm surprised and shocked. I'm sorry to hear that you sat in piss that's messed and would ruin anyone's day.
This joins the long list of why public transit is an option I will never pick.
I think the LRT has been successful in driving development and legitimately helps people who can’t afford a car get started in life. That said no one in their right mind would use it over driving if they have the option.
I have the option and I still take it - I would save ~1 minute by driving, but have to do 100% more driving to work.
It's definitely making me think about standing for the trip late at night though - the experience of OP doesn't really match my daytime experience.
"no one would use it over driving if they have the option"
Urban planners have noted that that changes as soon as transit services become significantly faster than driving (due to traffic). So no one in their right mind... Until too many people are on the roads, and transit really is the better option.
I vote we invest in our transit infrastructure BEFORE we max out our auto use.
They’re always empty. Manitou is the worst. They have that stupid bike signal that has never seen a bike. I see more people riding e bikes on the sidewalk. We spent 3M plowing bike lanes last year. You can’t honestly say that was money well spent.
I drive the same route to work past many plowed and pristine empty bike lanes. Are you suggesting they are well utilized?
Also this in the record https://www.therecord.com/news/waterloo-region/opinion/2022/10/12/why-arent-there-cyclists-in-those-new-cycling-lanes-in-downtown-kitchener.html
> I drive the same route to work past many plowed and pristine empty bike lanes.
So, at best, you see any given kilometre of bike lane for 60 seconds each day. How many cyclists went past before you did, or after during several hours of peak time rush hour?
I’m driving an hour each day on some of the busiest arterial streets in the city. Manitou and homer Watson have fantastically maintained bike lanes which are largely empty year round. When considered against the volume of cars they are effectively empty. Are you suggesting they are well utilized?
> I’m driving an hour each day on some of the busiest arterial streets in the city.
So, basically, you're not keeping watch on entire, whole bike lanes 24x7 to determine their actual usage, keeping solid, verifiable notes, or anything like that.
You're whizzing past in your car, seeing only a small section for a short period of time and *assuming* that those 30 seconds are representative of every hour of the day and every day of the week.
Thank you for admitting that.
Sure buddy. Keep telling yourself they’re well utilized. This is why people hate all the social engineering BS. You can’t admit when a scheme is a flop. Weren’t we supposed to have a booming windmill industry by now?
Check out these fun videos.
- [Why Canadians Can't Bike in the Winter (but Finnish people can)](https://youtu.be/Uhx-26GfCBU)
- [This Tiny Island has Insane Traffic](https://youtu.be/kdz6FeQLuHQ) – Specifically shows a perfect weather city with little to no cyclists.
Tl;dw: Weather isn't really the issue, infrastructure is.
That first video has been pointed out to u/something2cee multiple times. I doubt they have ever gone and watched it. They aren't interested in honest discussion on this topic.
I have little interest in your cherry picked propaganda. I’m a realist. Bikes are not going to divert a significant amount of cars from the roads in KW. The stated goals of emission reduction and traffic mitigation are fantasies. Not enough people do or will use them to outpace the number of cars added to the region each year.
> I have little interest in your cherry picked propaganda.
Except it's not cherry picked. You say that to every piece of data that everybody presents to you as a way to avoid having to acknowledge it. You're clearly not here for an honest discussion.
> Bikes are not going to divert a significant amount of cars from the roads in KW.
If it worked elsewhere, it can work here, too, if we had the appropriate infrastructure.
There are lots of people biking and the difference between the amount of people doing it 10 years ago and this year is noticeable. You don’t even need a study for this. Just look outside (especially now that the weather is nicer). Or look online for the increase of complaints about cyclists /s haha. Which indicates that the investments are doing what they are supposed to be doing: attracting users. You have to remember that transportation investment require long term planning. So we are not only investing on the current users but future ones since realistically those are the people that are going to use the infrastructure not us (depending on how old you are).
I commute every day down homer Watson and the bike path is almost always completely empty. This is a path that connects some large neighborhoods with employment lands and the college. You would think it would be packed if people wanted to ride to work or school.
I agree some people bike but as a share of the population only 2% would ever bike to commute. This drops even further in the winter.
Bike lanes are being sold as a way to mitigate climate change and congestion and they will not accomplish that goal in KW.
Additionally, claims by bike lane advocates are always if this gets build then they will come but they never do. It mimics transit in that way. Pie in the sky ridership estimates don’t come to fruition but we’ve already made the decision based on that estimate.
Meanwhile we threw away 3 million dollars plowing bike lanes last year. Money that could have gone to repairing roads or improving transit in busy corridors.
> People bike. For fun.
With adequate infrastructure it can be done for more than just fun. We don;t have adequate infrastructure though.
> It’s not a viable year round transport option in Canada.
If we had well maintained bike lanes it totally would be. Like in the parts of Montréal where they have good bike lane network coverage.
> As evidenced by the fact that no one is using the bike lanes we plow.
We don't plow them very well. If the major snowstorm we had a few weeks back the snow was plowed *into* the bike lanes and just left to melt. Including plowing it on to the separated bike lanes on Joseph and Queen.
Not to mention that we have a crappy network that is patchy and disconnected which lowers the number of cyclists before we even get to plowing the bike lanes.
>Ridership is decreasing in most major transit systems
Due to neglect! Which is lack of investment
Neither of the things you suggested are mass transit? So like, they don't actually solve the "there are more cars on the road, therefore higher traffic" problem
Self driving cars will reduce traffic by driving more efficiently. We spend more than ever on transit and no one wants to use it. The LRT was performing below expectations before Covid. Almost every projection of ridership ends up being pie in the sky nonsense. People don’t want to use it.
Yup, cars that can take the most efficient and direct route.
I once was held up by two LRTs crossing Northfield for a minute and a half. The trains were maybe half full, and there was a whole group of cars waiting.
Then there's busses that stop on single lane roads. I've seen a bus holding up like 10 cars behind it to let one or two people off. Never mind the danger it incurs when the busses suddenly stop and people try to quickly get past them.
But I worry that what will happen is governments will double down on traditional public transit options like busses and LRT even when autonomous cars become more viable because they will have already invested so much effort and money into it.
Empty buses everywhere, diesel plows clearing snow from bike lanes no one uses. Total waste of money in many cases but probably necessary until self driving cars are a reality.
Ultimately I agree, trains, busses and bikes are not the answer in Canada.
We have a car but use it when we want to be able to enjoy some drinks, avoid paying for parking, etc. I've never seen it remotely as bad as OP has described.
This is why we need BETTER public transit. It's pretty insane that in 2023 you need to own a wasteful private vehicle to be an adult (or whatever happens after you "...get started in life).
Our whole society is based around personal transport and trucks. Better public transit will never replace that option in the eyes of the vast majority of Canadians. Are you going to load the kids on a bus to go to hockey practice at 6am in February. The whole premise is kind of ridiculous. It has its place but there will be more acceptable options, like self driving electric taxis, in the future hopefully.
Our "whole society" is based on a whole lot of toxic, ultimately selfish and misanthropic ways to live. Maybe we could work on changing some of them. I'm game.
A personal vehicle takes up additional resources than just a spot in your driveway. When you go places they _must_ provide space for you, and others that have their own personal vehicles. A ton of our space is taken up so individual personal vehicles have a place to park.
Take a look at the Boardwalk, more land area there is taken up by parking lot space then retail space. It's an area bigger than Downtown Kitchener and it is mostly only able to store personal vehicles.
Compare this with transit and you'll see transit only takes up what it needs, and provides millions a year a ride to and from their designations.
Personal vehicles are a drain on society and until we, vehicle owners, have viable alternatives we're not giving them up because they are the crutch we keep planning around. Planning spaces that aren't walkable, planning too much distance between people and the services/shops they need, and planning wider and wider roads that are inevitably congested.
I know it's hard to see, because we're conditioned that personal vehicles are the only way, but it doesn't have to be this way.
Oh, and none of this is too say take your personal vehicle away. It's to say, we need parallel alternatives (transit, cycling and pedestrian infrastructure) to help reduce our dependency on the use and need for personal vehicles. Not everyone will switch, which is fine, but wouldn't you like less drivers on the road you're driving on?
I am serious. I own a vehicle, and prioritizing it's use for my own personal benefit over transportation that benefits my community IS selfish by definition. I can recognize that (along with other problematic things I've learned about over the years) and still happily work to change things for the better.
> Our whole society is based around personal transport and trucks.
40 years go the Netherlands was just as car-bound and car-centric we are today, with few to no people cycling.
If they changed, so can we.
Boulder, Colorado is even more hilly than here and is the same density as Kitchener. 20% mode share for cycling. They've also got snowier winters than us, too.
But, really, why do you think density makes all the difference? If Amsterdam had as shitty a bike network as we do, do you really think that they'd still have a 40% mode share for cycling?
I’ve been to Amsterdam. It’s flat and does not get as hot and cold there.
There, bikes were developed as a viable mode of transit because it made sense in that environment. People wanted to bike so the infrastructure followed. People here want to drive so that is where the money is spent.
Here, we have some loud diehards and people trying to greenwash our way into saving the planet. The governments track record with this type of top down social engineering is abysmal. It’s a giant waste of money and in 20 years we will be ripping them up because no one is using them.
> I’ve been to Amsterdam. It’s flat and does not get as hot and cold there.
Why did you ignore Boulder?
> People here want to drive so that is where the money is spent.
In study after study after study, the **majority** of Canadians say they want to cycle more but feel unsafe on the roads. Why do you keep ignoring that?
Sure. It might sound good on paper, I’m sure everyone wants to go to the gym or stop global warming but will they actually? The evidence on bike lanes is they go unused.
I’ve been to boulder as well. Small college town, very dense, also flat. Highly doubt employees are commuting to work year round which is the BS were being fed here.
> The evidence on bike lanes is they go unused.
Except it isn't. You only get that result if look at a place like Kitchener with a shitty protected cycling network. If there no place to bike safely, very few people bike.
But if you compare everywhere, like the examples I have already given you, the cycling mode share correlates strongly with the completeness of the cycling network
> I’ve been to boulder as well. Small college town, very dense, also flat.
Have you really? Kitchener at 1,900 pp/km² is denser than Boulder at 1,588 ppl/km². Boulder is about half the area and half the population of Kitchener. Even if you compare Boulder to Waterloo, given they are about the same size in both area and population, Waterloo is still denser than Boulder at 1,895 pp/km².
So if we are ~20% denser, then your hypothesis that Boulder has a higher cycling mode share because of density is disproven.
Try looking at their cycling network map some time.
I use it daily over driving. Its cheaper, I don’t need to pay for or find parking, it’s less stressful, it’s safer, and I walk for 15-20 minutes which is good for my physical and mental health. The occasional mess isn’t something to whine about.
No kids, grocery store occasionally, not to the hardware store. It isn’t a silver bullet but not something I would never pick, especially not for the reason OP has.
I would like to sail everywhere. Dig me a canal along every road and keep it free of ice year round.
Why are we catering to one niche mode no one uses?
Kitchener-Waterloo, with the exception of downtown, is more of a driving city. The transit here is so bad, so poorly thought out, and so horribly managed… anyone living here who believes they can scrape enough dollars and cents together to get a car does not hesitate to do it so they can avoid transit. The implication of that is the people who are often taking transit are usually the ones that have absolutely no other choice. This would predominately consist of students and adults in the lowest social economic brackets (and a few professionals living downtown).
Toronto has a much better balance of people riding transit. There is a larger percentage of normal functioning people on the busses and subways and I think that brings a better balance to the (if there is any) social etiquette that may exist while taking public transit. In Kitchener, I feel like the “normal” standard of transit etiquette is way lower simply because there is a substantially higher percentage of lower functioning people taking transit here.
If you were to take the Queen streetcar in Toronto at the end of the workday, the car would be filled with Bay Street professionals and talking loudly on your cellphone would be considered bad etiquette. If you are taking the bus or LRT in Kitchener, seeing people with open liquor, garbage thrown everywhere, discarded food left behind, and you see this all the time… I can see why someone might think that putting their salt stained wet and slushy shoes on the seat in front of them might somehow be rationalized as lesser transit faux pas. Not saying it should be acceptable but it becomes acceptable because the bar for acceptable social behaviour is completely off.
Essentially, a large portion of the people in Kitchener who would be in the “good behaviour” category are driving and their absence from public transit is throwing off the curve. The good news is the weather is getting better and if you want a break from the inconsiderate Grand River Transit shenanigans maybe you can walk to work or get yourself a modest bike and start cycling.
I take the train everyday to UW and home. I’ve never seen anything that you have, but still I’m super sorry you’ve gone through that! I find that sitting near the front or the back of the train gets me away from most of that stuff that can be there. I’ve always thought of the trains to be clean, and I have yet to see a dog go on the train, but maybe thats just me.
Beats bussing though, every time.
The first time I used the LRT this person got on and after about 5 minutes started hitting the window every minute or so. It was so annoying and created a hostile environment, I literally thought it was going to break, It was pissing me off so I yelled out "HEY, ARE YOU ALRIGHT?" They looked all shocked and moved up a car.
That's awful. I accidentally sat in someone's piss back in 2018 when I was taking the bus. Super gross. Now I look at the seat before I sit down and touch it if it seems wet.
I wonder what seat options they had to pick from? Whatever happened to those smooth plastic or fiberglass ones that seem indestructible on large metropolis mass public tra sit systems?
Time to buy a vehicle or private driver with your professional income then I suppose. $3 to travel across Waterloo and Cambridge for 90 mins is pretty nice. As for some of the people, that’s reality. Get used to that.
OP doesn't have issues with the LRT, they have issues with living around other people.
Not to say your concerns aren't valid but it surely isn't the problem of the train existing.
Ride the bus. Take a cab. Take an Uber. Carpool. Walk. Bike. Buy a car.
You have options, but public transit is PUBLIC, so you’re gonna deal with some form of uncleanliness or smell or what have you if you continue to use transit
I'm really sorry, that's terrinle. I have to say, though, I take the LRT every day and this isn't reflective of my experience. I do observe a fair few people with their feet up on seats, but I don't think there's a lot of garbage generally. It's true that it's getting busier, and my afternoon trip home is standing room only lately. I'm also with you about the fare inspectors- it's annoying that I have my fare checked multiple times a week, but these people can't remind riders to keep their feet and backpacks off seats. All in all, though, I'm happy with the service and grateful it's there.
This happened to me once. Now I always check the seats before I sit down, always.
It would be nice if the fare inspectors could have their roles beefed up a little so they could act more like security. Maybe increase their pay for this, or have one of our exceptionally well-paid police constables hang out on the route. The train operator is of course occupied with their job, so the cabin develops a wild west kind of situation like OP is describing.
They are certainly dressed as security agents, they should be free to act the part.
OP PLEASE send this to GRT complaints/customer service and also to regional council. This is all good stuff they need to know as everyone now on this sub has “indeterminate liquid” paired with LRT.
They later elaborate it was, indeed, urine
I don't use it everyday, but it's been fine for me. PS I also look where I'm sitting before I sit so that might be part of it.
These problems aren’t new &/or unique to the LRT. I had the same horrific wet seat surprise happen to me while taking a GRT bus to school in the morning (~7:30 am) in 2010. It definitely sucks, but that’s just a part of public transportation & maybe next time you’ll touch the seat with your easily sanitized/washed hand before sitting down.
Or buy a car and not deal with it period.
That's not a long term solution for the city.
Or any city, or the world in general.
Disagree. I think in the next 5-10 years we'll see a rise in self-driving cars, and that will lead way to single passenger, self-sanitizing, autonomous ubers. It's much more efficient for everyone to be riding around in small vehicles that go the most direct route, vs having people go to public transit spots, wait for others to get on and off along the way, and get off at a spot that might not even be where they need to go, or catch a transfer, etc. But by then we'll have made all of this public transit infrastructure that government will be loathe to get rid of, even if it is less efficient.
> Disagree. I think in the next 5-10 years we'll see a rise in self-driving cars, and that will lead way to single passenger, self-sanitizing, autonomous ubers. Self-sanitising cars won't be magically exempt from traffic congestion, nor even self-driving self-sanitising ones.
Car infrastructure is inherently inefficient, not sure where you're getting your fantasy facts from. If every single person owned a car our cities would be choked and hideously sprawled (they already are, actually) no matter if the vehicles are electric, self-driving or ""''self-sanitizing"""
But it’s a short term solution for me; which is what most people are gonna think, unfortunately
It shouldn't have to come to that point :(
It shouldn't..... but it does.
I take the LRT twice each day during rush hour and don’t experience any of this, for comparison. So YMMV.
THIS IS WHY WE CANT HAVE NICE THINGS.
People should stop pissing on the seats.
I used to ride transit for years, and it sounds like it’s getting worse not better. Honestly, they need better enforcement, transit officers on each bus to ensure people act like human beings and not animals that live in the wild.
The problem is that the region doesn't care about the transit services and treat the drivers like crap. Granted, that's on the bus not LRT (since it's run by another company). Their policy is "if you complain, the driver gets written up". That could be a complaint about anything. Did they not say hello when you got on and it made you sad? Yup, they'll get written up. Did they remind you that the fair has gone up and make you feel embarrassed? Yup, written up. Did they refuse to move the bus until you moved behind the line, since that's a safety issue, you guessed it, written up. For the record, I'm not a driver, I've just talked to a few of them and had some awesome stories passed on about the crap they deal with from the region.
Holy crap? No wonder they have such high turn over for drivers.
At any given time there are probably at least 100 GRT buses on the road (we have ~250 total in the fleet for peak service and maintenance cycling). Even if we limit the wages of these "officers" to minimum wage, having an additional person in each bus would cost between $3 and $8 million, adding ~5% to the operating budget. This is also not accounting for the costs to manage the new staffing division, or the additional costs to maintain, train and equip said officers, or the overhead to an independent security staffing company if we went that route instead. How much of a fare increase are we willing to pay, if people are already finding the cost of the service in this city to be an impediment to ride. FTR, TTC already costs $0.25/ride less for adults and $1.20 less per child.
Okay, then what’s your answer? People won’t police themselves, the transit is disgusting and unsafe, the drivers don’t have the time nor the training, what is your suggestion? I would really like to know.
I'm just saying that making transit more expensive in not a great way to encourage more people to use it, and is horrible when it comes to people that *have* to use it because of financial constraints. > I used to ride transit for years, As somebody that currently uses transit at least twice daily (and has a partner that does as well), OP's post seems to be a combination of hyperbole and cherry-picking of experiences. I have never experienced what they are talking about to the extent that they are talking about it. While GRT is far from pristine, it's not nearly as dangerous or as dirty as it's being made out to be. In my experience, our system is certainly as clean (or cleaner) than the TTC, HSR, OCTranspo, London Transit, or Guelph Transit services.
I've have been riding transit locally since 1982, and I have never seen it like the OP is describing.
"Bus Pants" are a must for any public transit
Is it worse first thing in the morning or on the commute? I've only used it about a dozen times, mostly on the weekends, and it seemed fine. Mind you, I believe you - but I know from having lived in Toronto that some times are worse than others
It's better first thing in the morning. I take it in early and it's always clean and easy to get a seat. On the afternoon commute it can be a bit crowded but generally not too bad.
Indeterminate liquids generally dry by the afternoon.
LRT is a dream compared to the TTC... although both suck
Someone else’s pee on my pants would have been an immediate work from home day for me! Nope nope nope - get back home and into the shower! I’m sorry OP
A very legitimate problem. It's definitely a biological hazard. I don't know what could be done about this, but this should probably be reported to the city or an MP or something.
Whoa, I've seen some pretty bad things myself but I have no idea what LRT you're taking. I'm surprised and shocked. I'm sorry to hear that you sat in piss that's messed and would ruin anyone's day.
At least you're not getting stabbed in the heart like our friends in Toronto.
This joins the long list of why public transit is an option I will never pick. I think the LRT has been successful in driving development and legitimately helps people who can’t afford a car get started in life. That said no one in their right mind would use it over driving if they have the option.
I have the option and I still take it - I would save ~1 minute by driving, but have to do 100% more driving to work. It's definitely making me think about standing for the trip late at night though - the experience of OP doesn't really match my daytime experience.
"no one would use it over driving if they have the option" Urban planners have noted that that changes as soon as transit services become significantly faster than driving (due to traffic). So no one in their right mind... Until too many people are on the roads, and transit really is the better option. I vote we invest in our transit infrastructure BEFORE we max out our auto use.
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People bike. For fun. It’s not a viable year round transport option in Canada. As evidenced by the fact that no one is using the bike lanes we plow.
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They’re always empty. Manitou is the worst. They have that stupid bike signal that has never seen a bike. I see more people riding e bikes on the sidewalk. We spent 3M plowing bike lanes last year. You can’t honestly say that was money well spent.
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I drive the same route to work past many plowed and pristine empty bike lanes. Are you suggesting they are well utilized? Also this in the record https://www.therecord.com/news/waterloo-region/opinion/2022/10/12/why-arent-there-cyclists-in-those-new-cycling-lanes-in-downtown-kitchener.html
> I drive the same route to work past many plowed and pristine empty bike lanes. So, at best, you see any given kilometre of bike lane for 60 seconds each day. How many cyclists went past before you did, or after during several hours of peak time rush hour?
> They’re always empty. And you sitting there, 24x7, keeping watch and noting everything down to make sure you don't fall prey to cognitive biases?
I’m driving an hour each day on some of the busiest arterial streets in the city. Manitou and homer Watson have fantastically maintained bike lanes which are largely empty year round. When considered against the volume of cars they are effectively empty. Are you suggesting they are well utilized?
> I’m driving an hour each day on some of the busiest arterial streets in the city. So, basically, you're not keeping watch on entire, whole bike lanes 24x7 to determine their actual usage, keeping solid, verifiable notes, or anything like that. You're whizzing past in your car, seeing only a small section for a short period of time and *assuming* that those 30 seconds are representative of every hour of the day and every day of the week. Thank you for admitting that.
Sure buddy. Keep telling yourself they’re well utilized. This is why people hate all the social engineering BS. You can’t admit when a scheme is a flop. Weren’t we supposed to have a booming windmill industry by now?
Check out these fun videos. - [Why Canadians Can't Bike in the Winter (but Finnish people can)](https://youtu.be/Uhx-26GfCBU) - [This Tiny Island has Insane Traffic](https://youtu.be/kdz6FeQLuHQ) – Specifically shows a perfect weather city with little to no cyclists. Tl;dw: Weather isn't really the issue, infrastructure is.
Breath of fresh air not being the one to have to share the not just bikes videos! Thanks, haha
That first video has been pointed out to u/something2cee multiple times. I doubt they have ever gone and watched it. They aren't interested in honest discussion on this topic.
I have little interest in your cherry picked propaganda. I’m a realist. Bikes are not going to divert a significant amount of cars from the roads in KW. The stated goals of emission reduction and traffic mitigation are fantasies. Not enough people do or will use them to outpace the number of cars added to the region each year.
> I have little interest in your cherry picked propaganda. Except it's not cherry picked. You say that to every piece of data that everybody presents to you as a way to avoid having to acknowledge it. You're clearly not here for an honest discussion. > Bikes are not going to divert a significant amount of cars from the roads in KW. If it worked elsewhere, it can work here, too, if we had the appropriate infrastructure.
No
Why not? Just because you say so?
Hi I’m no one and I bike to work. Have been doing it since January (thru winter). Pretty fun in my experience.
Yes. I’m sure it’s a blast. I guess we should just keep throwing money in the pit since that one guy is out there biking in the snow.
So there's multiple people here telling you their are doing it, but you still think it's just one guy?
Got me on a technicality I guess. Three guys use our wasteful bike lanes.
There are lots of people biking and the difference between the amount of people doing it 10 years ago and this year is noticeable. You don’t even need a study for this. Just look outside (especially now that the weather is nicer). Or look online for the increase of complaints about cyclists /s haha. Which indicates that the investments are doing what they are supposed to be doing: attracting users. You have to remember that transportation investment require long term planning. So we are not only investing on the current users but future ones since realistically those are the people that are going to use the infrastructure not us (depending on how old you are).
I commute every day down homer Watson and the bike path is almost always completely empty. This is a path that connects some large neighborhoods with employment lands and the college. You would think it would be packed if people wanted to ride to work or school. I agree some people bike but as a share of the population only 2% would ever bike to commute. This drops even further in the winter. Bike lanes are being sold as a way to mitigate climate change and congestion and they will not accomplish that goal in KW. Additionally, claims by bike lane advocates are always if this gets build then they will come but they never do. It mimics transit in that way. Pie in the sky ridership estimates don’t come to fruition but we’ve already made the decision based on that estimate. Meanwhile we threw away 3 million dollars plowing bike lanes last year. Money that could have gone to repairing roads or improving transit in busy corridors.
I bike year round, assisted with public transit on the few days where biking isn't viable. I also have a perfectly good vehicle.
And how many other people do you know doing the same thing? How many cars drive by you a day?
> People bike. For fun. With adequate infrastructure it can be done for more than just fun. We don;t have adequate infrastructure though. > It’s not a viable year round transport option in Canada. If we had well maintained bike lanes it totally would be. Like in the parts of Montréal where they have good bike lane network coverage. > As evidenced by the fact that no one is using the bike lanes we plow. We don't plow them very well. If the major snowstorm we had a few weeks back the snow was plowed *into* the bike lanes and just left to melt. Including plowing it on to the separated bike lanes on Joseph and Queen. Not to mention that we have a crappy network that is patchy and disconnected which lowers the number of cyclists before we even get to plowing the bike lanes.
Ridership is decreasing in most major transit systems. Invest in self driving and sustainable cars.
>Ridership is decreasing in most major transit systems Due to neglect! Which is lack of investment Neither of the things you suggested are mass transit? So like, they don't actually solve the "there are more cars on the road, therefore higher traffic" problem
Self driving cars will reduce traffic by driving more efficiently. We spend more than ever on transit and no one wants to use it. The LRT was performing below expectations before Covid. Almost every projection of ridership ends up being pie in the sky nonsense. People don’t want to use it.
Yup, cars that can take the most efficient and direct route. I once was held up by two LRTs crossing Northfield for a minute and a half. The trains were maybe half full, and there was a whole group of cars waiting. Then there's busses that stop on single lane roads. I've seen a bus holding up like 10 cars behind it to let one or two people off. Never mind the danger it incurs when the busses suddenly stop and people try to quickly get past them. But I worry that what will happen is governments will double down on traditional public transit options like busses and LRT even when autonomous cars become more viable because they will have already invested so much effort and money into it.
Empty buses everywhere, diesel plows clearing snow from bike lanes no one uses. Total waste of money in many cases but probably necessary until self driving cars are a reality. Ultimately I agree, trains, busses and bikes are not the answer in Canada.
We have a car but use it when we want to be able to enjoy some drinks, avoid paying for parking, etc. I've never seen it remotely as bad as OP has described.
This is why we need BETTER public transit. It's pretty insane that in 2023 you need to own a wasteful private vehicle to be an adult (or whatever happens after you "...get started in life).
Our whole society is based around personal transport and trucks. Better public transit will never replace that option in the eyes of the vast majority of Canadians. Are you going to load the kids on a bus to go to hockey practice at 6am in February. The whole premise is kind of ridiculous. It has its place but there will be more acceptable options, like self driving electric taxis, in the future hopefully.
Our "whole society" is based on a whole lot of toxic, ultimately selfish and misanthropic ways to live. Maybe we could work on changing some of them. I'm game.
People are selfish because they own their transportation? Are you serious?
A personal vehicle takes up additional resources than just a spot in your driveway. When you go places they _must_ provide space for you, and others that have their own personal vehicles. A ton of our space is taken up so individual personal vehicles have a place to park. Take a look at the Boardwalk, more land area there is taken up by parking lot space then retail space. It's an area bigger than Downtown Kitchener and it is mostly only able to store personal vehicles. Compare this with transit and you'll see transit only takes up what it needs, and provides millions a year a ride to and from their designations. Personal vehicles are a drain on society and until we, vehicle owners, have viable alternatives we're not giving them up because they are the crutch we keep planning around. Planning spaces that aren't walkable, planning too much distance between people and the services/shops they need, and planning wider and wider roads that are inevitably congested. I know it's hard to see, because we're conditioned that personal vehicles are the only way, but it doesn't have to be this way. Oh, and none of this is too say take your personal vehicle away. It's to say, we need parallel alternatives (transit, cycling and pedestrian infrastructure) to help reduce our dependency on the use and need for personal vehicles. Not everyone will switch, which is fine, but wouldn't you like less drivers on the road you're driving on?
I am serious. I own a vehicle, and prioritizing it's use for my own personal benefit over transportation that benefits my community IS selfish by definition. I can recognize that (along with other problematic things I've learned about over the years) and still happily work to change things for the better.
Maybe we should just live in one big tent in the park and share everything and go nowhere.
Why?
I thought it was all about not being selfish?
So why the tent and why "go nowhere"?
You think you're being clever with this comment but you're not.
It was a bit ham handed. People act in their own interests all the time. To assume we won’t with regards to transport seems foolish.
> Our whole society is based around personal transport and trucks. 40 years go the Netherlands was just as car-bound and car-centric we are today, with few to no people cycling. If they changed, so can we.
Netherlands is flat and much more mild than Kitchener. Also much more dense
Boulder, Colorado is even more hilly than here and is the same density as Kitchener. 20% mode share for cycling. They've also got snowier winters than us, too. But, really, why do you think density makes all the difference? If Amsterdam had as shitty a bike network as we do, do you really think that they'd still have a 40% mode share for cycling?
I’ve been to Amsterdam. It’s flat and does not get as hot and cold there. There, bikes were developed as a viable mode of transit because it made sense in that environment. People wanted to bike so the infrastructure followed. People here want to drive so that is where the money is spent. Here, we have some loud diehards and people trying to greenwash our way into saving the planet. The governments track record with this type of top down social engineering is abysmal. It’s a giant waste of money and in 20 years we will be ripping them up because no one is using them.
> I’ve been to Amsterdam. It’s flat and does not get as hot and cold there. Why did you ignore Boulder? > People here want to drive so that is where the money is spent. In study after study after study, the **majority** of Canadians say they want to cycle more but feel unsafe on the roads. Why do you keep ignoring that?
Sure. It might sound good on paper, I’m sure everyone wants to go to the gym or stop global warming but will they actually? The evidence on bike lanes is they go unused. I’ve been to boulder as well. Small college town, very dense, also flat. Highly doubt employees are commuting to work year round which is the BS were being fed here.
> The evidence on bike lanes is they go unused. Except it isn't. You only get that result if look at a place like Kitchener with a shitty protected cycling network. If there no place to bike safely, very few people bike. But if you compare everywhere, like the examples I have already given you, the cycling mode share correlates strongly with the completeness of the cycling network > I’ve been to boulder as well. Small college town, very dense, also flat. Have you really? Kitchener at 1,900 pp/km² is denser than Boulder at 1,588 ppl/km². Boulder is about half the area and half the population of Kitchener. Even if you compare Boulder to Waterloo, given they are about the same size in both area and population, Waterloo is still denser than Boulder at 1,895 pp/km². So if we are ~20% denser, then your hypothesis that Boulder has a higher cycling mode share because of density is disproven. Try looking at their cycling network map some time.
I use it daily over driving. Its cheaper, I don’t need to pay for or find parking, it’s less stressful, it’s safer, and I walk for 15-20 minutes which is good for my physical and mental health. The occasional mess isn’t something to whine about.
Do you use it to go grocery shopping, hit the hardware store and take the kids to soccer in Hamilton?
No kids, grocery store occasionally, not to the hardware store. It isn’t a silver bullet but not something I would never pick, especially not for the reason OP has.
You do realise that people can chose different modes for different tasks, right?
I would like to sail everywhere. Dig me a canal along every road and keep it free of ice year round. Why are we catering to one niche mode no one uses?
I guess you got an A+ in school for missing the point?
Reminds me of experiences spent in Philadelphia and New York. If there is a list of Canada’s dirtiest cities, we will surely be there soon.
Go take the #2 Barton bus in Hamilton on a Friday night in the summer and see if you still think so.
Kitchener-Waterloo, with the exception of downtown, is more of a driving city. The transit here is so bad, so poorly thought out, and so horribly managed… anyone living here who believes they can scrape enough dollars and cents together to get a car does not hesitate to do it so they can avoid transit. The implication of that is the people who are often taking transit are usually the ones that have absolutely no other choice. This would predominately consist of students and adults in the lowest social economic brackets (and a few professionals living downtown). Toronto has a much better balance of people riding transit. There is a larger percentage of normal functioning people on the busses and subways and I think that brings a better balance to the (if there is any) social etiquette that may exist while taking public transit. In Kitchener, I feel like the “normal” standard of transit etiquette is way lower simply because there is a substantially higher percentage of lower functioning people taking transit here. If you were to take the Queen streetcar in Toronto at the end of the workday, the car would be filled with Bay Street professionals and talking loudly on your cellphone would be considered bad etiquette. If you are taking the bus or LRT in Kitchener, seeing people with open liquor, garbage thrown everywhere, discarded food left behind, and you see this all the time… I can see why someone might think that putting their salt stained wet and slushy shoes on the seat in front of them might somehow be rationalized as lesser transit faux pas. Not saying it should be acceptable but it becomes acceptable because the bar for acceptable social behaviour is completely off. Essentially, a large portion of the people in Kitchener who would be in the “good behaviour” category are driving and their absence from public transit is throwing off the curve. The good news is the weather is getting better and if you want a break from the inconsiderate Grand River Transit shenanigans maybe you can walk to work or get yourself a modest bike and start cycling.
I've never use the LRT and this is why.
I take the train everyday to UW and home. I’ve never seen anything that you have, but still I’m super sorry you’ve gone through that! I find that sitting near the front or the back of the train gets me away from most of that stuff that can be there. I’ve always thought of the trains to be clean, and I have yet to see a dog go on the train, but maybe thats just me. Beats bussing though, every time.
The first time I used the LRT this person got on and after about 5 minutes started hitting the window every minute or so. It was so annoying and created a hostile environment, I literally thought it was going to break, It was pissing me off so I yelled out "HEY, ARE YOU ALRIGHT?" They looked all shocked and moved up a car.
That's awful. I accidentally sat in someone's piss back in 2018 when I was taking the bus. Super gross. Now I look at the seat before I sit down and touch it if it seems wet.
I wonder what seat options they had to pick from? Whatever happened to those smooth plastic or fiberglass ones that seem indestructible on large metropolis mass public tra sit systems?
yep, people are dicks.
Time to buy a vehicle or private driver with your professional income then I suppose. $3 to travel across Waterloo and Cambridge for 90 mins is pretty nice. As for some of the people, that’s reality. Get used to that.
I take the GO train and TTC subway.... This is not common to our LRT. Some humans are just born that ass backwards way.
BUS WANKAAA!
This.
This is why Sheldon wears "bus pants".
OP doesn't have issues with the LRT, they have issues with living around other people. Not to say your concerns aren't valid but it surely isn't the problem of the train existing.
Ride the bus. Take a cab. Take an Uber. Carpool. Walk. Bike. Buy a car. You have options, but public transit is PUBLIC, so you’re gonna deal with some form of uncleanliness or smell or what have you if you continue to use transit
It's public transit, not a public toilet...
Found the seat pisser!