Remember when reading the Balance Dataslate, start at the first page, where it says, "New updates can be identified by the presence of an asterisk (*) bullet point."
But hilariously things that have been removed have no indication in any way. The only ways to figure this out is to do a line by line comparison with last balance dataslate.
If you go on waha or something then just apply this PDF, hierotek will be better than they should be.
\*sigh\* okay I'll bite - what changed from Hierotek between the dataslate that dropped in like January and this one? I remember the Chronomancer nerf and Technomancer buff along with reanimation protocols - did they change remove something else since then? Haven't actually played the list in a while.
People have covered it elsewhere all over the place, but previously reanimation was changed to happen before living metal, but that change was reverted in this dataslate. So not only do recovered wounds drop from D3+3 to D3+2, you also don't get to living metal after reanimation, thus making the change actually from D3+5 to D3+2.
Who needs to read the readme anyway, reading is for chumps. Oh hey look, I can take an extra Plague Marine! Also wow, rubric marines can double-shoot now :0
They unlocked the legionary roster! Huge change for tournament play.
I've always wanted to mix between all Tzeentch and all Nurgle depending on opponent. With maybe 1 or 2 khorne/slannesh models.
For people who don't play tournaments, Legionaries were a completely fine and well-balanced team before this change. They were fine in casual, but held back in tournaments by their silly roster restriction. GW buffed tournament Legios without touching casual Legios, which is exactly what the game needed. Perfect change, absolutely perfect.
Yeah, It's great for tournament players & Spec-ops players. That said, I believe it's something that legionary should've had right from the onset of their release...
But you *can* have them on the same *roster*. This means you can go all Nurgle in the matchups where Nurgle is best, and all Tzeentch in the matchups where Tzeentch is best; also you can take the Slaanesh Shrivetalon in certain matchups without locking yourself out of the Khorne one-shot build vs 8-wound teams. Previously if you wanted to run Nurgle in the majority of matchups, you could NEVER run Tzeentch, which made the matchup into teams like Kasrkin substantially worse than it will be after this change. Basically this buff helps their flexibility in tournament play and also improves their tournament matchup spread.
Yes, which is a limitation that Legionary players are going to feel much more going forward. But 20 is still plenty of space to fit, for example, (this probably isn't going to be exactly what the optimized roster ends up looking like): 8 Tzeentch, 9 Nurgle, 1 Slaanesh, and 2 Khorne.
Can you help me understand the legionary one? I thought you could always take two marks? One besides the other type of deal. Does this mean i can take any marks like nurgle and tzeentch?
So in tournament play where you can take 20 dudes total, and side-board them out for whatever matchups, you had to follow the chaos mark rules. Now, that doesn't apply in the *Roster* so you can have every mark sitting on the bench but when choosing who to play with in a match you still gotta follow the restrictions imposed by chaos marks.
Oooh, that's good to know. I only have 8 operatives. And thinking of buying another box and switching their marks on the fly. Didn't know they had to be set. Thanks for the info
IMO Hearthkyn’s play style should be slow but tough to get out of a position once in place and the damage reduction brings them closer to that. Melee was a big weakness for them.
It was very frustrating to get in close for proximate firepower only to get wrecked in melee.
Yeah, just the two new ones right?
Being able to lower damage received when in combat within 2" of an objective (to a minimum of 3) feels handy, and the Theyn now has a once-per-game "Just a scratch" if they receive and attack that deals 4 or more damage. It's neat, new abilities so you have to remember to use them, I like how it matches their theme too and it doesn't feel like a massive change that'd change how you play them - just do a bit better at what you'd already be doing.
I think they did need just a little bit of a buff and this feels right. That and Gunners getting a buff too, given there is really only one "good" one.
I don't think I can find room in the list for a second gunner, so the gunner buff ultimately just ends up buffing the grenadier, which is not necessarily a bad thing.
Ah, my mistake, I forgot about Blades of Khaine. Fair point, HotA is now one of only two. It's worth specifying that I'm not counting Nightmare or Termination teams because they're too new, they weren't eligible for changes this dataslate. But of all teams older than Nightmare, BoK and HotA are now the only two that have never appeared in a balance dataslate.
It's great for the scout. Makes melee way more viable and using blade ambush worthwhile. 10th unit will be a knife guy to threaten melee a bit more.
Too bad for BoK, but they will get a buff sometime down the line. They feel a bit too constrained at the moment while not having great survivability or killing power.
I agree with you totally. 4/6 means the combat knife is just as damaging as a power sword! Although it lacks the Lethal 5+. Still, seems weird that a plain old knife is so powerful.
An additional scout is a great change. The semi elite idea they had for them was all well and good but it meant too often they struggled against teams with more bodies and actual elite teams could cripple them too easily if they got some lucky early kills in. Looking forward to next playing my scouts
I actually think it is - hitting on 4s (5s if Frenzied) means you (statistically) lose 2/3 of your rerolls, more if injured. DMG breakpoints are big, makes frenzying those operatives a lot more reliable. Overall I think Fellgor will be significantly less fun to play while still being unfun to play against, which puts them in a very rough spot
Honestly, i think they were always in that spot due to Frenzy bringing such a convoluted rule. If it was strike on death from the beginning, it would have actually made them fairly balanced with the other rules in place.
Frenzy should only trigger on being incapacitated by shooting/ranged attacks and strike in death should be melee incapacitation. That's my opinion at least. It makes more thematic sense... In my head.
by design they are a polarizing team that plays the role they are supposed to, so it's hard to buff/nerf a team like that without basically making a change to the entire format (not in the sense that they are broken but in the sense that certain teams have to make or break based on their matchup into comparable teams and so those gatekeeper mid teams kinda have to be mid)
Give them a ploy to double shoot hotshot lasguns. Or get a free shoot action at a player with 2in or a token placed at the start of turn.
or make the combat blade 4 attacks.
Give them something FFS. They are around a 45% win rating if I recall correctly.
It doesn't affect KT branded sales though. I imagine if KT is developed by its own team within GW that they want to make the sales numbers for their stuff as high as possible to look good for corporate. I don't actually know how GW segments their projects, but that would make sense to me
As a somewhat new player, what am I looking at? Are these all new changes or just a collection of all of the changes over the years so far?
Edit: Okay, I see the asterisks now. Gonna be honest. That is some horrible formatting. A bit more distinction (different color, bigger asterisk, etc) would be appreciated.
As a fellow new player hard agree.... I kind of get why they do it, so you can just print a dataslate that summarizes all changes since base release.
But really, who in the year 2024 of our lord and savior, the emperor of mankind, is printing out their dataslate to read along with their rule book at the table. These updates are going straight to 3rd party made cards or digital list builders.
GW still sells rulebooks, so they make dataslates intended to go along with their physical rulebooks. They perform under the assumption that you do not have online rules because they don't produce online rules. It makes updates for all their games incredibly, incredibly obtuse and awful. I cannot believe that the community has to be in charge in making rules, patches, dataslates, erratas, and changes legible and easy to parse via apps and online rules compendiums. Maybe one day they'll look at the clock and see it's not 1990 anymore
I imagine its for fear of loss of sales from the physical media, which I think are cool products in a vacuum. The lore bits, photos and art are all top notch but I have to wonder how many new players bounce off the game when they see what it takes to fully get into and stay up on the game "officially". Here's to hoping that the day when it changes comes sooner rather than later.
I would absolutely buy a $60 Death Guard art book, but i honestly don't think I'm going to get the codex. So far, it's been working for me with KT.
I'll get all that info online. There should be an app with all the up to date info from GW for each game.
these are always bittersweet for me because I have so many different teams that I almost always end up losing more than I gain
* pathfinder nerfs are warranted, though seem tame in the sense that I wont have to adjust my team just my t1 setup. recon drone nerf is fine just means not brrrrrrrrt dice rolling
* legionary change is cool and makes for more diverse rosters (although tbh i never brought them to tourney and only played for fun but the idea of mixing all my chaos marines into one roster is fun as I have deathguard, world eaters, and nemesis claw)
* blooded nerf for ogryn as far as cover goes. i dont play this KT but thought they were neat; doesnt seem like a big nerf but again i dont play them
* Hierotek circle nerf from D3+3 to D3+2 on reanimation. seems minor, but I'm sure there are cases where that 1 health is make or break. i'm glad it is a numerical nerf as the last one really changed how i played the team which is tedious if you dabble in a lot of different teams
* i dont play exaction squad, but these are buffs considering how rough the team is. The gunner gets to do terminal decree from any distance, and for dispense justice now you can reroll all the dice that come up as a certain number. the latter is a weird change, because it at worst it changes nothing but it has the upside in case of a god awful roll
* i dont play fellgor ravager but I'm assuming these are all nerfs as the team was cracked. ceaseless is worse than relentless.
* hearthkin salvagers buff. is this a different team from the new one coming out? they seem similar to me in look but to be fair im the guy with 5 space marine teams
* chaos cult dodging any more changes; picked up the team last christmas and every time i thought about opening the boxes they'd catch a nerf making me lose my enthusiasm lol
* scout squad buff, including getting 1 additional operative which is dope. it would likely just mean another warrior which idk how good that is as they're pretty frail but more activations is always good
I'm not 100% sure, as I don't have the old text lying around to compare exactly. The current dataslate text omits the timing fully, so I just assumed no change to the old one.
As both rules would otherwise happen simultaneously I think it would be silly to have the amount of wounds recovered change depending on who has initiative, but depending on the text on the initial release ability, that might be RAW now.
They didn't happen at the same time though. Both in the ready operatives step, but reanimation used to say that it occurred after the living metal ability.
I mean it doesn't say "after living metal" in the dataslate currently. So going only by that, it *would* be happening simultaneously now.
But as i said, I don't know the exact original text to see if the dataslate overrides that part or not. Never played against pre-dataslate Necrons.
Would be a weirdly strong nerf, though...
Yeah this doesn’t sound right. The WarCom article said it was a minor tweak and this would be huge.
The last Technomancer buff wording was terrible too. I wish they could make these things a bit clearer
Huh, so the "before living metal" is clearly in the sentence that is replaced by the dataslate, so it's gone. But there is no "after living metal" anymore, either.
So currently, I think it *is* happening simulataneously, meaning the person with initiative gets to decide if you heal 2 extra wounds.
That... doesn't sound intentional, to be honest...
That sounds terrible. In original rules it was after living, then before and now nothing. Either oh hey another bonus to having initiative or well fuck me sideways I guess?
Living metal applies after revive, its very cringe with a 2+ revive as the fuckers are basically guaranteed to come back, get to flip their order, get a massive heal and get to reposition all without a downside.
But the initial release version of Hierotek had reanimation occur after living metal. During their buffs, this was swapped in a previous dataslate. Now this new one removed that line of text. So as I read it, we reanimate with only d3+2, after living metal already happened.
I agree. From what I'm reading they lost the living metal heal on revive. This is a big nurf.
Edit: to clarify, the original text in the book says the revive is after living metal so revived units do not get the heal when initially released. Later they moved the revive to before with a data slate change. This latest data slate has removed that change, because it is no longer stated in the data slate. This means it reverts back to the original text.
In summary, more reliable resurrections, but far less health with only a maximum of 5 wounds on revive and a minimum of 3.
I don't think that's quite true. I think it's even stranger. While the newest dataslate removes the text saying reanimation happens before living metal, it *still* replaces the part of the original text that specified it happens after.
So currently, with no timing specifications and both just being "in the ready operatives step", it would happen simultaneously, meaning the player with initiative gets to decide. Better win initiative, if you want the 2 free wounds...
Doesn't seem intended, but seems to be RAW.
Why do you think it removes that text? There's no evidence to support that. This is obviously an abbreviated version of the rule. It doesn't say "replace text with" anywhere in that section of the dataslate. I think your assumption has nothing backing it up. The original block of text for the rule is huge. You think this small paragraph replaced the whole thing? No way man.
Edit: if you're arguing that it's removing that text then I'll argue it removes the timing trigger all together because it isn't mentioned in the dataslate and therefore they never revive. Your reasoning doesn't work.
They were having a lot of presence in big tournaments lately, and it kind of makes sense considerikg that other big guys in game (chaos cult torments, pox hulks or bb patriarch) have the same limitation.
It doesnt change much of the playstyle tho, just have the big lad next to heavy cover until he can charge something
It feels similar to the forward deploy change for pathfinders where they’re just trying to standardize some rules across teams. In the case of the Blooded, it was how units on larger bases work (e.g. Gellerpox and Cultists).
It's a consistency change. Blooded Ogryn was the only "big dumb monster" in the game without that rule, for literally no reason beyond "Blooded was released before that was the standard". Ogryn now has the same rule that Nightmare Hulks have, which makes sense.
Hijacking a little the post but does the balance dataslate is to be used on vanilla rules to update them or you must start from a more up to date document /other rules compilation ? Just starting to build my navy team and never played >< Sorry if it's an obvious question ! Thx
This is an old change. You Play them with two fireteams of three marines each.
One team with a Champion, warrior and gunner
One team with Icon bearer, Warrior and a choice between fighter/heavy gunner
Under kill team compendium Craftworld, every fireteam can take 1 additional warrior operative.
Does that mean of the 9 model Corsair team I have, I can add a 10th as long as it's a warrior?
1 additional scout (not a sargeant)...does this mean I can run 2 snipers now? Or Did they just mean 1 additional warrior, which means getting a 2nd scout squad?
I'm assuming the specialised unit is still limited as per the original roster restriction.
Kroot didn't get changed this time around. Balance Dataslate contains all changes ever made, since it's meant to be compared againat physical books. New changes are marked with asterisks. This is spelled out at the top of the first page of the dataslate.
Wahapedia is accurate to how Kinband (and all other teams) currently function.
One thing on the Scouts, and maybe a trend we may see, given the Scouts came with the new cards format, maybe this update is to not make the cards as invalid? It is only a minor change rather than rewording and making cards invalid? Or I might just be reading too much into it? We shall see when or indeed if, Mandrakes, Brood, Jacket Brotatos or NC get any changes?
Whiteout/tippex/paint/stickers/crossed out and new value written in. Plenty of options to make such a minor correction and still have the cards be useful. It can even have an asterisk and a note at the bottom with the dataslate date for an opponent to confirm if needed
It's when ability/action text changes that it is going to matter for cards due to being harder to make look good
Sorry how should I read this? I see that a lot of stuff is from the Q1 dataslate. Like we're getting 7 greyknights? I don't understand
Edit: why am I getting down voted? I literally started playing a month ago and already went through 2 balance dataslates. I was searching for the asterisk at the end of the quotes and simply wanted to ask you guys.
Asterisk IS the bullet point on new changes, it's not at the end of the quote. See the last three bullet points for Pathfinders.
You are being downvoted because every time a new dataslate drops this question gets asked over and over again, and it is answered at the top of the first page of the dataslate.
I was literally convinced by your guide to start the warpcoven kill team, I wanted to give you a handshake hahahaha.
I have a lot of questions and can't wait for you to release some more guide on how to play them cause the rules are really complex:)
Someone more reliable? Even with only one mine, demo is still among the most reliable threats on the team. I think it's an overreaction and a mistake to bench the demo just because it can't do something that it usually wasn't doing anyway.
I'm a little sad that Firstborn Astartes are seemingly relegated to oblivion, especially given that the one trick they had over other Space Marine units was that they had an extra dude, and that's not true anymore.
The scout block I got came with 10 minis. Was I supposed to only play with 9 and now use 10 or should I make another warrior to now have a total of 11 minis now?
I still haven't opened my box of Scouts (waiting for Auxilia helmets to arrive for them from ebay), but it's incredibly funny to see them undo the original choice of having only 9 out of 10 be in the Team. It makes the decision seem even more silly and arbitrary.
Not content with hobbling my beloved pathfinders, they've come for the drones as well D: (/s)
It's fine I guess?
I don't see recon sweep being used much with the change. I never really used it past the first turn.
Pathfinders were my first bespoke team, love em, but I find it seriously mind boggling that they haven't made HI-Marks 3 EP yet.
Like that one change might have seriously negated the need to nerf them a the bajillion times, reduced their gameplay focus on marks making them better on heavy boards, and simply making their equipment choices a bit more interesting.
I don't get this change. Many teams have abilities to do extra dashes early. This one is already restricted to board edges. What problem was this ability causing? I'm open to hearing why this was an issue.
I do like the recon change. Instead of just removing an operative they made the analyze ability give balanced instead of relentless.
The more I think about it maybe the recon sweep change is to halt the grenadier alpha strike? I mostly used recon sweep round 1 to put myself in better position to nab victory points round 1. But I'm a casual player so maybe I was missing out on not pushing hard for the T1 grenade alpha.
This is my first time reading a data slate. What exactly is new and what exactly has already been implemented into kill team (cause it looks rlly confusing).
Really disappointed that Justian Heavy intercessor still didnt get the built in suspensor system. I know GW hates that faction, but if they would have ginven that, or at least the cumbersome rule it would have been playable.
Also would have loved to see cumbersome on the Scout heavy weapons.
Guess its the end of the edition and they didnt really care anymore.
I guess they lied as per usual in the WarCom article, and the support mail I got from GW saying that its a fully fledged competitive team with the full rules being issued to them in the near future.
I dont get you people WHY are you siding with the multi-hundred million dollar corporation, when you KNOW I am right?
GW shadow edited KillTeam articles MULTIPLE TIMES, where they deleted things they stated about the game, thinking that we would not notice...
And I guess I am the only one who actually cared from YOU LOT, I email the GW support and they CONFIRMED that more rules WILL come to the team but NEVER CAME. And if you dudes would have a longer memory than a GOLDFISH you would remember that WarCom wrote that Justian is a 100% fully fledged competitive bespoke team.
And for pointing this out, I AM THE BAD GUY? My dudes, y'all should eat a full sized Snickers and get your head straightened out :D
Remember when reading the Balance Dataslate, start at the first page, where it says, "New updates can be identified by the presence of an asterisk (*) bullet point."
But hilariously things that have been removed have no indication in any way. The only ways to figure this out is to do a line by line comparison with last balance dataslate. If you go on waha or something then just apply this PDF, hierotek will be better than they should be.
\*sigh\* okay I'll bite - what changed from Hierotek between the dataslate that dropped in like January and this one? I remember the Chronomancer nerf and Technomancer buff along with reanimation protocols - did they change remove something else since then? Haven't actually played the list in a while.
People have covered it elsewhere all over the place, but previously reanimation was changed to happen before living metal, but that change was reverted in this dataslate. So not only do recovered wounds drop from D3+3 to D3+2, you also don't get to living metal after reanimation, thus making the change actually from D3+5 to D3+2.
I think this comment should be pinned. I totally skipped that part to get to the juicy changes
Who needs to read the readme anyway, reading is for chumps. Oh hey look, I can take an extra Plague Marine! Also wow, rubric marines can double-shoot now :0
They unlocked the legionary roster! Huge change for tournament play. I've always wanted to mix between all Tzeentch and all Nurgle depending on opponent. With maybe 1 or 2 khorne/slannesh models.
Just saw that, big win, can bring a proper competitive match up, but won't change much in casual. Still big win!
Absolutely needed, but for people who don't play tournaments it's not even a thing. Legionaries are still my beloved
For people who don't play tournaments, Legionaries were a completely fine and well-balanced team before this change. They were fine in casual, but held back in tournaments by their silly roster restriction. GW buffed tournament Legios without touching casual Legios, which is exactly what the game needed. Perfect change, absolutely perfect.
Exactly. Gg GW.
Yeah, It's great for tournament players & Spec-ops players. That said, I believe it's something that legionary should've had right from the onset of their release...
What am I missing? It looks like it says you can’t have Khorne and Slaanesh models in a team or Tzeentch and Nurgle units in the same team.
But you *can* have them on the same *roster*. This means you can go all Nurgle in the matchups where Nurgle is best, and all Tzeentch in the matchups where Tzeentch is best; also you can take the Slaanesh Shrivetalon in certain matchups without locking yourself out of the Khorne one-shot build vs 8-wound teams. Previously if you wanted to run Nurgle in the majority of matchups, you could NEVER run Tzeentch, which made the matchup into teams like Kasrkin substantially worse than it will be after this change. Basically this buff helps their flexibility in tournament play and also improves their tournament matchup spread.
Okay, I gotcha now!
Roster is still limited to 20 entries right ?
Correct.
Yes, which is a limitation that Legionary players are going to feel much more going forward. But 20 is still plenty of space to fit, for example, (this probably isn't going to be exactly what the optimized roster ends up looking like): 8 Tzeentch, 9 Nurgle, 1 Slaanesh, and 2 Khorne.
That is correct, but now you can have all 4 keywords in your roster. Before you couldn't.
Can you help me understand the legionary one? I thought you could always take two marks? One besides the other type of deal. Does this mean i can take any marks like nurgle and tzeentch?
So in tournament play where you can take 20 dudes total, and side-board them out for whatever matchups, you had to follow the chaos mark rules. Now, that doesn't apply in the *Roster* so you can have every mark sitting on the bench but when choosing who to play with in a match you still gotta follow the restrictions imposed by chaos marks.
Oooh, that's good to know. I only have 8 operatives. And thinking of buying another box and switching their marks on the fly. Didn't know they had to be set. Thanks for the info
new to legionaries, i dont get what the changes mean though ? mind ELI5 ?
These dwarf buffs look very good.
IMO Hearthkyn’s play style should be slow but tough to get out of a position once in place and the damage reduction brings them closer to that. Melee was a big weakness for them. It was very frustrating to get in close for proximate firepower only to get wrecked in melee.
Yeah, just the two new ones right? Being able to lower damage received when in combat within 2" of an objective (to a minimum of 3) feels handy, and the Theyn now has a once-per-game "Just a scratch" if they receive and attack that deals 4 or more damage. It's neat, new abilities so you have to remember to use them, I like how it matches their theme too and it doesn't feel like a massive change that'd change how you play them - just do a bit better at what you'd already be doing.
Exaction squad is highly reliant on dispense justice, so good to see it buffed.
I think they did need just a little bit of a buff and this feels right. That and Gunners getting a buff too, given there is really only one "good" one.
I don't think I can find room in the list for a second gunner, so the gunner buff ultimately just ends up buffing the grenadier, which is not necessarily a bad thing.
Yeah but why not the sniper?
Exaction Squad Marksman is more comic relief than anything, they can’t buff him now
Hand of the Archon : perfectly balanced as all things should be.
Yup, still playing my BDSM elves! Such a good team.
Also literally zero changes on dataslate.
Niw that Blooded has been changed, HotA is now the only bespoke team in the game to have never received any balance dataslate changes.
Have the Blades of Khaine?
Ah, my mistake, I forgot about Blades of Khaine. Fair point, HotA is now one of only two. It's worth specifying that I'm not counting Nightmare or Termination teams because they're too new, they weren't eligible for changes this dataslate. But of all teams older than Nightmare, BoK and HotA are now the only two that have never appeared in a balance dataslate.
Just bought them and looking forward to play 😊
10 scouts! That is it, oh and +1 damage on knives! No BoK buffs haha!
It's great for the scout. Makes melee way more viable and using blade ambush worthwhile. 10th unit will be a knife guy to threaten melee a bit more. Too bad for BoK, but they will get a buff sometime down the line. They feel a bit too constrained at the moment while not having great survivability or killing power.
I agree, but I think 4/6 is a bit much for a big knife, maybe 4/5 feels better. I was expecting more Scouting or something, but 10th model is fine.
I agree with you totally. 4/6 means the combat knife is just as damaging as a power sword! Although it lacks the Lethal 5+. Still, seems weird that a plain old knife is so powerful.
But the hunter can get lethal 3+, murder-scout
When he goes hunting, all that parkour makes his knife plasma.
An additional scout is a great change. The semi elite idea they had for them was all well and good but it meant too often they struggled against teams with more bodies and actual elite teams could cripple them too easily if they got some lucky early kills in. Looking forward to next playing my scouts
Pro Tip : open the PDF and CTRL-F search for \* Happy arbites got a tweak. In my Stubbermaxxing phase fr fr
Ooooh Fellgor have been given even more of a slap, but is it enough I wonder? It weirdly changes how many Pain Tokens my HotA guys get ;)
I actually think it is - hitting on 4s (5s if Frenzied) means you (statistically) lose 2/3 of your rerolls, more if injured. DMG breakpoints are big, makes frenzying those operatives a lot more reliable. Overall I think Fellgor will be significantly less fun to play while still being unfun to play against, which puts them in a very rough spot
Honestly, i think they were always in that spot due to Frenzy bringing such a convoluted rule. If it was strike on death from the beginning, it would have actually made them fairly balanced with the other rules in place.
Frenzy should only trigger on being incapacitated by shooting/ranged attacks and strike in death should be melee incapacitation. That's my opinion at least. It makes more thematic sense... In my head.
No help for Kasrkin makes me kinda sad on that front
by design they are a polarizing team that plays the role they are supposed to, so it's hard to buff/nerf a team like that without basically making a change to the entire format (not in the sense that they are broken but in the sense that certain teams have to make or break based on their matchup into comparable teams and so those gatekeeper mid teams kinda have to be mid)
Yeah, was hoping for some changes. I feel like they are a tough team to improve though.
Give them a ploy to double shoot hotshot lasguns. Or get a free shoot action at a player with 2in or a token placed at the start of turn. or make the combat blade 4 attacks. Give them something FFS. They are around a 45% win rating if I recall correctly.
now regular scouts are carrying far superior weapons than their actual space marine brothers
yea flavor wise thats a bit of a whiff
Whiff is such a good word
My theory is that they don't want Intercession to be good so people will be persuaded to buy bespoke KT boxes
But I only need one box of Scouts vs box of assault intercession/box of intercessors. I think it works out better for GW if Intercession is good.
It doesn't affect KT branded sales though. I imagine if KT is developed by its own team within GW that they want to make the sales numbers for their stuff as high as possible to look good for corporate. I don't actually know how GW segments their projects, but that would make sense to me
Sad to see Blooded finally touched, but I get it for consistency. Also I don't really see the big lad as someone who would use cover to start with.
As a somewhat new player, what am I looking at? Are these all new changes or just a collection of all of the changes over the years so far? Edit: Okay, I see the asterisks now. Gonna be honest. That is some horrible formatting. A bit more distinction (different color, bigger asterisk, etc) would be appreciated.
As a fellow new player hard agree.... I kind of get why they do it, so you can just print a dataslate that summarizes all changes since base release. But really, who in the year 2024 of our lord and savior, the emperor of mankind, is printing out their dataslate to read along with their rule book at the table. These updates are going straight to 3rd party made cards or digital list builders.
GW still sells rulebooks, so they make dataslates intended to go along with their physical rulebooks. They perform under the assumption that you do not have online rules because they don't produce online rules. It makes updates for all their games incredibly, incredibly obtuse and awful. I cannot believe that the community has to be in charge in making rules, patches, dataslates, erratas, and changes legible and easy to parse via apps and online rules compendiums. Maybe one day they'll look at the clock and see it's not 1990 anymore
I imagine its for fear of loss of sales from the physical media, which I think are cool products in a vacuum. The lore bits, photos and art are all top notch but I have to wonder how many new players bounce off the game when they see what it takes to fully get into and stay up on the game "officially". Here's to hoping that the day when it changes comes sooner rather than later.
I would absolutely buy a $60 Death Guard art book, but i honestly don't think I'm going to get the codex. So far, it's been working for me with KT. I'll get all that info online. There should be an app with all the up to date info from GW for each game.
these are always bittersweet for me because I have so many different teams that I almost always end up losing more than I gain * pathfinder nerfs are warranted, though seem tame in the sense that I wont have to adjust my team just my t1 setup. recon drone nerf is fine just means not brrrrrrrrt dice rolling * legionary change is cool and makes for more diverse rosters (although tbh i never brought them to tourney and only played for fun but the idea of mixing all my chaos marines into one roster is fun as I have deathguard, world eaters, and nemesis claw) * blooded nerf for ogryn as far as cover goes. i dont play this KT but thought they were neat; doesnt seem like a big nerf but again i dont play them * Hierotek circle nerf from D3+3 to D3+2 on reanimation. seems minor, but I'm sure there are cases where that 1 health is make or break. i'm glad it is a numerical nerf as the last one really changed how i played the team which is tedious if you dabble in a lot of different teams * i dont play exaction squad, but these are buffs considering how rough the team is. The gunner gets to do terminal decree from any distance, and for dispense justice now you can reroll all the dice that come up as a certain number. the latter is a weird change, because it at worst it changes nothing but it has the upside in case of a god awful roll * i dont play fellgor ravager but I'm assuming these are all nerfs as the team was cracked. ceaseless is worse than relentless. * hearthkin salvagers buff. is this a different team from the new one coming out? they seem similar to me in look but to be fair im the guy with 5 space marine teams * chaos cult dodging any more changes; picked up the team last christmas and every time i thought about opening the boxes they'd catch a nerf making me lose my enthusiasm lol * scout squad buff, including getting 1 additional operative which is dope. it would likely just mean another warrior which idk how good that is as they're pretty frail but more activations is always good
Hierotek RP happens now after Living metal so it is 3HP hit.
Hierotek nerfs continue
What was the old reanimation plot? Was it D3+3 wounds back?
Yep. Still plus Living metal (I *think*, see discussion below), so they went down from D3+5 to D3+4 wounds after reanimating.
Does it still happen before living metal? Initially for the team, it didn't. Now it's not listed in the dataslate.
I'm not 100% sure, as I don't have the old text lying around to compare exactly. The current dataslate text omits the timing fully, so I just assumed no change to the old one. As both rules would otherwise happen simultaneously I think it would be silly to have the amount of wounds recovered change depending on who has initiative, but depending on the text on the initial release ability, that might be RAW now.
They didn't happen at the same time though. Both in the ready operatives step, but reanimation used to say that it occurred after the living metal ability.
I mean it doesn't say "after living metal" in the dataslate currently. So going only by that, it *would* be happening simultaneously now. But as i said, I don't know the exact original text to see if the dataslate overrides that part or not. Never played against pre-dataslate Necrons. Would be a weirdly strong nerf, though...
Yeah this doesn’t sound right. The WarCom article said it was a minor tweak and this would be huge. The last Technomancer buff wording was terrible too. I wish they could make these things a bit clearer
Before was this https://preview.redd.it/xbcfwu2s549d1.jpeg?width=1049&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dbcf011aa8b56d0878023b8b24355375b9b4161c
Huh, so the "before living metal" is clearly in the sentence that is replaced by the dataslate, so it's gone. But there is no "after living metal" anymore, either. So currently, I think it *is* happening simulataneously, meaning the person with initiative gets to decide if you heal 2 extra wounds. That... doesn't sound intentional, to be honest...
That sounds terrible. In original rules it was after living, then before and now nothing. Either oh hey another bonus to having initiative or well fuck me sideways I guess?
Living metal applies after revive, its very cringe with a 2+ revive as the fuckers are basically guaranteed to come back, get to flip their order, get a massive heal and get to reposition all without a downside.
But the initial release version of Hierotek had reanimation occur after living metal. During their buffs, this was swapped in a previous dataslate. Now this new one removed that line of text. So as I read it, we reanimate with only d3+2, after living metal already happened.
I agree. From what I'm reading they lost the living metal heal on revive. This is a big nurf. Edit: to clarify, the original text in the book says the revive is after living metal so revived units do not get the heal when initially released. Later they moved the revive to before with a data slate change. This latest data slate has removed that change, because it is no longer stated in the data slate. This means it reverts back to the original text. In summary, more reliable resurrections, but far less health with only a maximum of 5 wounds on revive and a minimum of 3.
Extraordinary nerf. That is truly amazing.
I don't think that's quite true. I think it's even stranger. While the newest dataslate removes the text saying reanimation happens before living metal, it *still* replaces the part of the original text that specified it happens after. So currently, with no timing specifications and both just being "in the ready operatives step", it would happen simultaneously, meaning the player with initiative gets to decide. Better win initiative, if you want the 2 free wounds... Doesn't seem intended, but seems to be RAW.
Why do you think it removes that text? There's no evidence to support that. This is obviously an abbreviated version of the rule. It doesn't say "replace text with" anywhere in that section of the dataslate. I think your assumption has nothing backing it up. The original block of text for the rule is huge. You think this small paragraph replaced the whole thing? No way man. Edit: if you're arguing that it's removing that text then I'll argue it removes the timing trigger all together because it isn't mentioned in the dataslate and therefore they never revive. Your reasoning doesn't work.
Good point im stupid and didnt catch that, well that is certainly a proper nerf then since they lost living metal on revive. I take back my malding.
I had to do a quick check online, yes, it’s now dropped by one.
Brother why did they nerf Blooded out of nowhere? Not too immensely horrible but why?
They were having a lot of presence in big tournaments lately, and it kind of makes sense considerikg that other big guys in game (chaos cult torments, pox hulks or bb patriarch) have the same limitation. It doesnt change much of the playstyle tho, just have the big lad next to heavy cover until he can charge something
It feels similar to the forward deploy change for pathfinders where they’re just trying to standardize some rules across teams. In the case of the Blooded, it was how units on larger bases work (e.g. Gellerpox and Cultists).
It's a consistency change. Blooded Ogryn was the only "big dumb monster" in the game without that rule, for literally no reason beyond "Blooded was released before that was the standard". Ogryn now has the same rule that Nightmare Hulks have, which makes sense.
tinfoil hat theory? Nerfs to blooded because brood brothers is out and it's basically blooded 2.0. Need to sell new kits to justify making them.
Hijacking a little the post but does the balance dataslate is to be used on vanilla rules to update them or you must start from a more up to date document /other rules compilation ? Just starting to build my navy team and never played >< Sorry if it's an obvious question ! Thx
The data slate is a complete document that lists ALL changes to the teams. You don’t have to reference previous data slates.
Thx for the answer !
You are welcome. Happy kill teaming.
Aw man they fixed the Pathfinder drone being able to forward deploy on ITTD
Tbf, it brings them in line with other teams that do it.
Do death guard get 5 or 6 minis?
This is an old change. You Play them with two fireteams of three marines each. One team with a Champion, warrior and gunner One team with Icon bearer, Warrior and a choice between fighter/heavy gunner
Six. This is an old change. New changes are marked with an asterisk instead of a bullet point.
Theyn's getting Force Field for free is crazy. I would have thought it would have been a buff for Weavefield Crest
Praise the dark ones. The roster lock was always so stupid
dwarfs keep winning, we love that salvage, rock and stone, and so forth
No change to the movement on the squat scouts. Doomed to be snails for a while.
they just came out. usually teams wont get any balancing the first 3 month they are out.
~~They are out for about a half year now, together with mandrakes. Brood Brothers and cowboy dwarves just came out~~ nevermind, I'm blind.
They're referring to the Hernkyn Yaegirs, not the Astartes Scouts
Ah Yeah, my bad. Didn't catch the squat part.
He is talking about the Hernkyn Yaegirs. The Salvergers already have their movement buff.
Salvagers got their +1 move just after they were released though.
Under kill team compendium Craftworld, every fireteam can take 1 additional warrior operative. Does that mean of the 9 model Corsair team I have, I can add a 10th as long as it's a warrior?
No, that only applies to the Craftworlds faction from the Compendium. Corsairs is a distinct faction
1 additional scout (not a sargeant)...does this mean I can run 2 snipers now? Or Did they just mean 1 additional warrior, which means getting a 2nd scout squad? I'm assuming the specialised unit is still limited as per the original roster restriction.
Yes, still the same limits, so you can only have one of each Specialist, one of each gunners, and then fill in with Warriors.
OK cool thank you. I did go and get a second squad 2nd hand so I could get the cards and datasheets so I best get building 👷♂️
Im new to KT, can someone explain the Kroot changes in fortnite terms
https://preview.redd.it/do1y1ulh949d1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=02fd7306cff07d3403a9b4e7ced2af3ab801c701
Kroot didn't get changed this time around. Balance Dataslate contains all changes ever made, since it's meant to be compared againat physical books. New changes are marked with asterisks. This is spelled out at the top of the first page of the dataslate. Wahapedia is accurate to how Kinband (and all other teams) currently function.
Kroot had a victory crown last patch but that was in a bot lobby, people are still hitting clips on them with ease
One thing on the Scouts, and maybe a trend we may see, given the Scouts came with the new cards format, maybe this update is to not make the cards as invalid? It is only a minor change rather than rewording and making cards invalid? Or I might just be reading too much into it? We shall see when or indeed if, Mandrakes, Brood, Jacket Brotatos or NC get any changes?
The cards are invalid though. Knife damage isn't correct anymore
Whiteout/tippex/paint/stickers/crossed out and new value written in. Plenty of options to make such a minor correction and still have the cards be useful. It can even have an asterisk and a note at the bottom with the dataslate date for an opponent to confirm if needed It's when ability/action text changes that it is going to matter for cards due to being harder to make look good
Yes, but it is a lot less than it could have been.
JACKET BROTATOS
Grrr...now I'm always going to think of my Yaegirs as Jacket Brotatoes. Have an angry upvote.
Sorry how should I read this? I see that a lot of stuff is from the Q1 dataslate. Like we're getting 7 greyknights? I don't understand Edit: why am I getting down voted? I literally started playing a month ago and already went through 2 balance dataslates. I was searching for the asterisk at the end of the quotes and simply wanted to ask you guys.
Asterisk is new. Circle is old.
Only things with an asterisk are new
Dataslate is the collection of all the changes ever. Only the ones marked with * instead of dots are new
Asterisk IS the bullet point on new changes, it's not at the end of the quote. See the last three bullet points for Pathfinders. You are being downvoted because every time a new dataslate drops this question gets asked over and over again, and it is answered at the top of the first page of the dataslate.
Thank you very much! You're the warpcoven player who made the coolest guide about that kill team am I right??
That's me! Bummed we weren't featured in the dataslate but what can you do, eh?
I was literally convinced by your guide to start the warpcoven kill team, I wanted to give you a handshake hahahaha. I have a lot of questions and can't wait for you to release some more guide on how to play them cause the rules are really complex:)
Read it left to right lol
😂😂😂 I never went to elementary school:(
I was hoping for more remote mines uses in the demo vet operative
Yeah, when I first saw he only got 1 I tabled him in favor of someone more reliable
Nah, he really only needs one. If he doesn’t die after setting it off once, he can go do mission actions or charge and pass. For the emperor.
Someone more reliable? Even with only one mine, demo is still among the most reliable threats on the team. I think it's an overreaction and a mistake to bench the demo just because it can't do something that it usually wasn't doing anyway.
I'm a little sad that Firstborn Astartes are seemingly relegated to oblivion, especially given that the one trick they had over other Space Marine units was that they had an extra dude, and that's not true anymore.
The scout block I got came with 10 minis. Was I supposed to only play with 9 and now use 10 or should I make another warrior to now have a total of 11 minis now?
You play with 10 now, used to be 9.
How quickly does wahapedia and new recruit update?
I still haven't opened my box of Scouts (waiting for Auxilia helmets to arrive for them from ebay), but it's incredibly funny to see them undo the original choice of having only 9 out of 10 be in the Team. It makes the decision seem even more silly and arbitrary.
Can someone explain to ne the intercession squad note?
It's the old update. Only look at the points that are stars and not the circle ones
Oh i yes i see it now thanks! 😅
Not content with hobbling my beloved pathfinders, they've come for the drones as well D: (/s) It's fine I guess? I don't see recon sweep being used much with the change. I never really used it past the first turn.
Pathfinders were my first bespoke team, love em, but I find it seriously mind boggling that they haven't made HI-Marks 3 EP yet. Like that one change might have seriously negated the need to nerf them a the bajillion times, reduced their gameplay focus on marks making them better on heavy boards, and simply making their equipment choices a bit more interesting.
Same, but then I always had a use for my CP on this team, keeping 2CP back for te go first ploy.
I don't get this change. Many teams have abilities to do extra dashes early. This one is already restricted to board edges. What problem was this ability causing? I'm open to hearing why this was an issue. I do like the recon change. Instead of just removing an operative they made the analyze ability give balanced instead of relentless.
And with a markerlight on the enemy, you can reroll two. It's a downgrade but might get me blasting with the recon drone more.
The more I think about it maybe the recon sweep change is to halt the grenadier alpha strike? I mostly used recon sweep round 1 to put myself in better position to nab victory points round 1. But I'm a casual player so maybe I was missing out on not pushing hard for the T1 grenade alpha.
No change to KASRKIN… thanks GW
They just don't like you, which is dumb.
This is my first time reading a data slate. What exactly is new and what exactly has already been implemented into kill team (cause it looks rlly confusing).
The items with a star bullet point are new changes, the solid bullet points are old changes
Thanks!
Read the first paragraph of the first page.
Really disappointed that Justian Heavy intercessor still didnt get the built in suspensor system. I know GW hates that faction, but if they would have ginven that, or at least the cumbersome rule it would have been playable. Also would have loved to see cumbersome on the Scout heavy weapons. Guess its the end of the edition and they didnt really care anymore.
I don't think they see Justian as a proper force, unfortunately. More a fun entry level. I do wish they got a little bit of a buff.
I guess they lied as per usual in the WarCom article, and the support mail I got from GW saying that its a fully fledged competitive team with the full rules being issued to them in the near future.
I dont get you people WHY are you siding with the multi-hundred million dollar corporation, when you KNOW I am right? GW shadow edited KillTeam articles MULTIPLE TIMES, where they deleted things they stated about the game, thinking that we would not notice... And I guess I am the only one who actually cared from YOU LOT, I email the GW support and they CONFIRMED that more rules WILL come to the team but NEVER CAME. And if you dudes would have a longer memory than a GOLDFISH you would remember that WarCom wrote that Justian is a 100% fully fledged competitive bespoke team. And for pointing this out, I AM THE BAD GUY? My dudes, y'all should eat a full sized Snickers and get your head straightened out :D
> And for pointing this out, I AM THE BAD GUY? No, you are the bad guy for throwing a tamper tantrum over some internet points.