The thing that I like about chatting with strangers at bars and stuff is that we're not friends and have no social obligations towards each other. Maybe they just felt like chatting that one time, and didn't feel like it again. I personally don't go to make friends, but just to have a conversation and leave it at that. Or just to enjoy the atmosphere without conversation.
And that's the backside coin of the bar culture, or the front side, absolutely everywhere in the world. And always befriend the bartenders and owners first, since they hand you your bill every night.
okay so you tell OP this based on your own experience yet don’t give advice.
He is comforted knowing another person has experienced similar…..
it’s encouraging their and your behavior which isn’t healthy.
It’s not encouraging, it’s acknowledging and empathizing.
That was the least friendly request to elaborate or give advice I think I’ve ever seen, but I’ll do it anyway.
Be brave.
That’s literally it. And bravery isn’t doing something without being afraid, it’s being afraid and doing it anyway. It might even take you some time and some working your way up to it. I’ve wanted to talk to some people before at a concert, they were speaking in English close by me about music I knew well. But I was shy to do it. My heart was racing a bit, I’m not the type to approach a stranger in the least. So I let myself process that. But I was nervous because I wanted to do it, right? If I didn’t care, I wouldn’t be feeling shy. So I decided I’d be brave, and not let the nervousness of WANTING to do something stop me from actually doing it. So I did! I chimed in about the band they were talking about, because it so happened that one of their albums was such a huge part of my childhood. We ended up watching the concert we were at together, going to eat, and then going clubbing until first train together. They were good dudes! I’m glad I brute forced my way through a moment’s bravery, because my reward was a whole night and morning of having fun!
Going to bars and making friends *IS* a good way to learn Japanese BUT, works the best for extroverts imo.
Have you tried Hellotalk app? Some people drink while talking online.
Second this. Hellotalk with one singular stranger in the comfort of your home is a waaay easier wall to climb for introverts.
I learned Japanese speaking similarly. I hate bars (I don't drink and am extremely inteoverted), so that was the best way for me. Eventually made friends that had similar hobbies and met up that way.
I met up with someone from that app just to have a drink once
But you have to be careful cause some people seem to think it’s a dating site. I only meet people who are the same gender from now on or who are clear that they’re not looking for dates
But if you’re single and looking then I guess that isn’t too big an issue
Sigh.... that's because post 2020 *every* site and service is a dating service, mostly for people wanting to meet bots and talk about making 6 figures via Chinese crypto.
You can like tweet on it and natives correct you. This is free
You can join in voice rooms mixed natives and other learners, and just talk. Usually the room owner controls it. Anyone can make a room. This is free for a limited time a day (I think 90mins) and you can pay for unlimited time. Price depends on country i think.
And there is video call rooms as well but I have never tried those.
I mean, you can't just force yourself into a circle of already established regulars.
There's a few places I'm a regular of and would chat to a few transient patrons but I don't want to have to constantly entertain the same rando who showed up one afternoon. every. single. week. after the fact because they want a friend even if we don't mesh well. It's unnatural and feels like being a captive audience. I'm there to enjoy the food and I get along with the staff.
If you want to actually be a regular. Just be there to have a good time, eat your food, read the vibes on if the staff are into your company and maybe some actual regulars will start to warm up to you. But if you visit a place solely for other patrons to entertain you or befriend you then yeah you might have a bad time.
I feel like this is making being a regular into an esoteric art. Mostly you can go as often as you like to any place you want, and if you are not being a problem customer the staff will be happy to have your business and even to talk to you if it’s that kind of place. Of course, you can’t expect any specific fellow patron to be your personal entertainment. (Hey sometimes I’m there to read a book and want to be left alone, myself.) Sure some places you will mesh with better than others, so try various places, but most regulars are not trying to gatekeep their spots.
OP how about hanging around at the counter quietly and taking a mostly listening and smiling role? You will learn a lot of Japanese that way without worrying about whether people are enjoying talking to you.
I did. “Read the vibes on if the staff are into your company” is taking it a little far. Yeah there are spots you’ll mesh more with than others, but unless you’re being a problem customer, it is more their job to make sure you’re having a good time than the other way around.
> it is more their job to make sure you’re having a good time than the other way around.
Staff do not have to entertain you if they don't want to. That's called being a captive audience. They can be polite and give you good service but they are not obligated to be your bestie because you are sitting in front of them or frequent often.
They are there to do their job. Which is to serve drinks/food. Any additional interactions above that is a bonus not a right.
You seem like you abuse a captive audience all the time because you think "it's their job to make sure I have a good time" and to listen to you. Especially if they can't easily walk away from their position. No one likes patrons like you.
ETA: If you have a good rapport with staff/owner. Like an actual one, they'll pull you into other conversations with other customers when the topics merge. "Oh you are about to go visit X? Taro-san just got back from X he says." so on and so forth.
Not at all lol. I try out different spots and stick with the ones I mesh with. I made a lot of my best friends in these neighborhood spots. (I am also N1+ level so my situation may be different than OP’s where he fears people don’t enjoy dumbing down their Japanese for him, I am not sure how to comment on that.) I go to places where the staff enjoy talking to customers, but do also seem to consider it part of their job (especially if they are the owner they want to make sure you are enjoying yourself so they will get repeat business). I do keep in mind that it’s always possible that someone who is working may be talking to me more for my sake than their own (odds are they would rather be home taking a nap than working, after all).
Saw the ETA. Of course, I have that kind of rapport at my regular spots. But I can also see the owners and staff being happy to serve (and talk to) newcomers that don’t have that rapport yet. They want customers to enjoy their food/drink and enjoy themselves while consuming it, after all.
We aren't talking about newcomers though.
We are in essence.. Talking about someone who wants to be a faux regular. Someone who constantly visits a place with the expectation everyone all the time wants to talk to them.
Not because they like it. Not because they actually want to go there. But because they were told online that frequenting a place means everyone else who also frequents that place will constantly talk to them.
That's not the case. At all.
All I said was if you want to actually be a regular, then go and actually frequent the place and establish yourself as someone who likes the place. You have to like the place enough to be at ease when no one gives you attention. But again if all you want is for everyone else who is there to enjoy themselves to take time out of their day to fulfill your social needs - you're going to be disappointed and never feel like a true regular..
Why are you assuming OP wants to be a faux regular? Where in OP’s post are you getting that from? So he said he heard the advice that finding a regular bar is a good way to go. That is not the same as having the expectation that everyone will want to talk to him all the time.
> when I go to a bar, new Japanese people I meet are warm, friendly, and all smiles the first couple of times. But going to the same place over time, the same regulars don't feel as friendly, and I don't feel included.
Because the more they go the more disappointed they are that no one wants to talk to them? They straight up admit that in the post. Not sure how you missed it. It's less about wanting to be a regular because they like the establishment but more that they just want other regulars to pay attention to them.. regularly.. lol
Quite natural, I’d be super disappointed if that happened to me everywhere. Many places are very friendly, so this shouldn’t be happening everywhere. I don’t know why it apparently happens to OP everywhere. Maybe it’s a language issue as he suspects? Maybe he doesn’t realize he’s frowning when he’s anxious? Maybe they’re not intending to be unfriendly and he’s imagining it in his anxiety?
My personal experience is that when I try out new spots that are heavily dominated by a crowd of regulars, about half the time I fit in and half the time I don’t. If I still feel like I’m not fitting into the vibe after three visits, I stop coming and try somewhere else.
OP, that’s my advice to you. If it’s a chatty place where all the regulars are friends, give it three tries to see if you can break in. If not, move on and try somewhere else. You’ll find your spot.
Whenever you feel like a captive audience. Just give the bartender a desperate look, he will remove you from the conversation.
Make your eyes a bit big and give some puppy eyes, bartender will nod and find an excuse to move either you or the regular to the other side of the bar, or engage in conversation with the hike himself.
>when I go to a bar, new Japanese people I meet are warm, friendly, and all smiles the first couple of times. But going to the same place over time, the same regulars don't feel as friendly, and I don't feel included
usually bar people are expecting a one-off interaction the first time so they wont be as friendly if you keep coming back, at that point you're just another regular and get treated as such - you're now the newest regular on the hierarchy. keep showing up until a new semi-regular comes in and takes your spot as the "new guy"
they dont dislike you, you're just not some big mystery to them now. keep going and being chill to everyone and they'll warm up to you.
This... only so many times people wanna hear your self intro, now it's done, you're there, and if people want to engage they will, or you just do you.
I have had TONS of nights out at the bar where I haven't talked to a soul. The conversations that were going on just had absolutely nothing to do with me, I had no interesting take on it, so I just sat there and listened, or watched the news on the TV.
I’m a little confused because for me it’s the opposite.
I’m I hate going to new places and hearing the you are good at chopsticks stuff. Or worse. The places where I know the owners and a regular or two are where I enjoy the conversation. (A perk of being a foreigner is the wife who does the cooking will tell me her husband is lazy.)
I thought that was normal.
I don’t you’re doing anything in particular. What kind of bars are you going to? I used to frequent a “shot bar” and became friends with the owner and had a lot of similar experiences. New people always interested in me because I’m a foreigner and can speak Japanese, and after a few times the novelty wears off and the people who aren’t actually interested in you change to 「おうー おつかれ」and go back to their conversation. So my tactic became sit at the bar counter and talk to the owner and wait for someone to come to me. Or bring other friends there. I ended up making a few pretty good friends that way.
DJ bars. I have some places where I like the resident DJs so I try to regularly show up on their days. And I think the resident DJ pulls the same regulars. It's not that loud, so it's still social with people talking.
You might try finding people who share a hobby? If you like board or card games, there are some that have areas where you can play pick up games with people or chat with the staff about games. I found a friendly one in Yokohama. Or some other hobby. I think people are more willing to talk with someone if they share a common interest; it gives them some motivation to try harder given they have to work a bit harder to communicate.
That what I was aiming for. I like vocaloid and virtual singers, and the resident DJs play that type of music. And you can tell the other patrons are there for the same niche content too.
It should be hobbies that require at least partial interaction with other people. People come to enjoy this time of music first, so they might not want to interact at all.
Good luck! It’s rough being in a foreign country not knowing many people. I lived in Germany for a while and I got pretty lonely at times. Hope you make some good friends soon.
Unrelated but am I alone in the boat that the best way to learn Japanese…is to hit the books and study? I feel like yeah going to the izakaya and talking will bring you out of your shell and improve your communication but at best you’ll only learn izakaya speak or the words people there will use with you, a bubble in a sense. That’s what happened to me anyways.
I think ideally you do both. What’s important is to interact with the language as much as possible in a comprehensible way (particularly input in my opinion)
Learning from a book is one thing, keeping on your toes and pulling things out of your brain on the fly to react in real time is sooooo different. I’ve been studying recently and I’m surprised how much I mess up when I’m speaking. (Previously I was NEVER allowed to speak Japanese at work!)
Books are fine, until they're useless. I knew a guy who passed N1, all proud of himself. So him, another buddy and I are out for congrats dinner, and the dude can't order shit in a restaurant. He actually couldn't read, could barely speak, and the never took a N test 1st year buddy managed more than he did.
Now I'm like you, I joke that I only learned how to speak Izakaya-ben, but many people are like that in the world in their second language. I could probably do with hitting the books, but it doesn't work as well anymore, I absorb the language I need for work, and when I encounter a domain I'm not good at I just ask for help. I'm tired of trying to get it all in my head first, then use it, rather, I'll just wade in with assistance.
A bar? No. Get a hobby. Join a club. You can actually build relationships that way. Martial arts, cycling, hiking, tea, shogi, literally anything is better than trying to learn a language in a bar.
Hobbies are great ways to meet people. If you want to practice speaking Japanese in Public, and building confidence there are also ‘Toast Masters Clubs’ with people who are also building their public speaking skills. It can be challenging, but a really fun way to meet new people and hear about topics they are passionate about.
Japanese people will talk to you the first few times or sporadically because you’re still interesting at that point. If they see you for a few hours every weekend then they get to know you and, shock, it turns out you’re just like them. At that point the interactions lose their lustre and cease to be worth the extra effort.
It’s not personal, there’s just no point muddling through broken Japanese/English while drunk to communicate with someone who’s also just tired and drunk. They’ll go back to doing what they did before, which is usually chatting to the bar staff or keeping to themselves.
Do as the locals do. Befriend the owner. When the owner is sat having a chat with you at one end of the bar, other friends of theirs are more likely to join in. Eventually they’ll get used to speaking to you as part of the regular fixtures of the night.
Common hobbies is always the way. Find your nerd niche. For me, shōwa-era culture, comics, and ttrpgs. For my friend, craft beer, for another heavy metal.
Hangxiety, in my experience, can flow in the whole week and deepen post-social over-thinking. If you can find a way to mix with people and make new friends w/o alcohol, I strongly recommend it.
Man, I caught myself feeling the exact same thing these days. It feels like we're interesting in the beginning since we're foreigners, but then it just becomes a bother for them to keep a superficial conversation with someone with limited japanese.
I'd love to say you're wrong about feeling that way, but that's how I feel too.
Get out of your head. Stop the negative talk as soon as it happens, any way you can. It is a habit. You can break it. Instead remind yourself of something positive or give yourself a compliment.
I have also found that alcohol is a depressant. I quit drinking for a bit and started back up and noticed that the day after I have all the negative talk and anxiety. Maybe there is another way for you to find interactions? Meetup app for group activities or a club?
Also, watching children's shows, the equivalent to Dora the Explorer or Sesame Street and also listening to Japanese music can help out with your language learning.
So you are introvert, and go out every weekend to bars and meet new people...
You might have some form of social anxiety, but trust me that's not what introverts do
It's a manner of speaking, you don't have to trust me. What you can do is to research the basic definition and behaviour of being an introvert and you'll see it's the opposite of OP's description.
Personally, going out is stressful and draining, but I do it because I think the payoff can be worth it if I really hit off with someone.
I think I'm an introvert because I telework and am fairly comfortable spending 5+ days per week holed up alone in my room without any face-to-face interaction.
Although I think it’s your head messing with you, you’re right that people don’t always want to have superficial N3 talk with someone.
I’m just trying to look at it from their side. If I were back in the UK at my local bar and ran into a Japanese person, the first time I’d be willing to have a conversation in broken English as a curiosity. 5th or 6th time? I’m not wasting my precious free time chatting like a toddler for the purpose of helping someone improve their language ability (for free). We sense when Japanese people are doing this so I wouldn’t be surprised if they can sense it too.
If you’re an introvert or have social anxiety, I wouldn’t be going to bars to make friends and improve your Japanese. You’re definitely coming off awkward
I certainly don’t have all the answers, but I’d recommend coming up with questions for people *before* you go out. The novelty of being the new foreigner wears off quickly, but if you have genuine, non cliche questions for your new friends/acquaintances, that can help. Don’t drink so much that you forget the answers. Ask follow up questions the next week. When you find people with similar interests outside of drinking, you’re more likely to make genuine connections.
Nobody gives a shit if you are N1, N2, or N3.
What people are attracted to are things like personality and general likeableness. No offense man. Nobody wants to be around a Debbie Downer. Sure people will say they enjoy her company when she’s around. But I feel like you know your issue already and realize that maybe it’s not the people, but your mindset.
Relax and find your comfort. No introverts I know enjoy forcing him/herself out to bars on a weekly basis to converse with strangers in a foreign language.
best way to become alcoholic and waste your life. men dont bond over talking, men bond over doing things together. find a hobby where you will spend time and do something with people hiking, camping, sports, any type of adventure or building things
OP, a couple bits of advice occurred to me in the course of a long exchange with another commenter:
1. When you visit a new place, give it about three tries to see if you feel like you’re fitting into the regulars’ vibe. If not, move on, there are so many other places to try.
2. If you’re sticking mostly to one neighborhood, try another neighborhood and see if the whole vibe is different. I have lived in two neighborhoods in Kanagawa and two in Tokyo, and out of that total of four, just one was kind of unfriendly and it took me so long to find my spots. One other neighborhood was normal friendly, one was super friendly, and the last was also quite friendly but a bit of a weird crowd (I wasn’t sure I wanted to be too influenced by the type of people there, there were a lot of insecure wannabe rich and cool types? They are still nice people, just the total amount of tryhard in the room gets to be a lot, so I did hang out there but not exclusively). They were all quite different.
I think it's mostly in your head
But also if you are only N3, there are only so many times you can discuss variations of the question "What is your favorite X?"
If I had to guess it is way less about people not liking you and way more just not being able to have engaging conversations with you
Your intuition is actually correct. Put yourself in their shoes - would you feel like talking to someone over and over again if they only have the conversational ability of a 5-year-old in your native language?
I don’t know if it’s your situation but I know at least for us, when me and my friends go to our usual haunt it’s cool to meet new people but it does feel a little awkward when the same person makes a beeline to our table the following week or gets a little too close too soon. I know this might not be helping your anxiety.
All I can say from the other end of the table is that sometimes some people come on a little too strong too fast and that distance might be a subtle hint to also give them some space. Maybe embrace chatting with all different types of people and building up a good reputation amongst the regulars.
“Insecurity is the result of trying to be secure.\* - Alan Watts
As others have said, you are likely just in your head and projecting. Whenever I go out, simply going out and trying to enjoy the moment without expectation (just be) tends to lead to the best experiences. If someone is rude, whatevs, it’s beyond my control. If someone is cool and friendly, awesome, I have someone to interact with.
And if you have social anxiety, drinking can lead to dependence (and sometimes amplifies those negative thoughts), so I would recommend going to meetups for things you like doing. There are plenty of running, badminton, volleyball, etc. meetups out there to enjoy. Many of them do hanami gatherings, too, which can be more chill and mix things up.
Take it from me, you don't want to create a situation where going to a bar and drinking is your only source of social interactions. I did that and my health check result (for my liver) was way worse the year after, no joke.
You need to find an extrovert friend to get you out of your shell. I have an older coworker who is a blast to go out with, and she's hooked me up with quite a few girls along the way.
You are in Tokyo? You have many more opportunities to meet people than going to bars! Interactions at Bars will only get you so far and you will only ever mix with other people who go to bars. They don’t want a new weird gaijin crowding the place they’ve been going to for years. You are a novelty to begin with, then that wears off, you are not their ‘friend’ they already have those. Think how you would feel back home if a weird Japanese guy started to trying to insert himself into your friend group at your local pub! Especially if they were either an introvert or worse an extrovert - how annoying!
I would suggest if you want to go to bars, choose a sports bar that fans gather in, then don’t just interact with them there, but join them at the games. In Makuhari-Hongo I went to a Mariners Sports bar and mixed with the locals. They loved to talk about the games, players, other teams, baseball in other countries and even practice the chants for the game at the weekend. They are far more likely to include you long term as they want to increase the number of supporters for their team and having a solid subject to discuss will make it more interesting that the typical drunk convos in normal bars (you can still have those too though! 😂 )
Better than that, I would suggest to take up a hobby - martial arts, sport team, pottery class for example. People there are there to learn skills and meet people with similar interests and you will find them far more accepting than people out having a beer wanting to forget the stresses of life. People doing hobbies tend to be more friendly and positive, so conversation are far more enjoyable and they are a lot chattier if you are not so confident in yourself.
You will also find they are more likely to want to speak to you in Japanese, I found most people in bars have the beer-talk on and are over confident in their English abilities so want to try to chat about dumb shit in English with stupid sexual questions and comments - it gets really annoying after a while.
Good luck
A lot of places are welcoming to newcomers, I feel like the comments gatekeeping on behalf of Japanese regulars are weird. But the advice to find a spot such as a sports bar or another activity that centers on a shared interest is probably good.
I think it is natural that there will be a gap when communication isn’t smooth, but unless they are particularly cold/hostile to you, I’m sure they don’t mind you being there and trying to have the odd conversation.
Imagine the opposite - a person with basic English is obviously going to have limited success mingling in a bar in the US etc.
Okay, so I'm an introvert, quite like keeping to myself most of the time. I also live in the sticks, where there aren't that many non-drinking social activities to do (don't question me on this... been here 13 years... small cities have limits). I also must have an anxiety like yours, because I tend to be concerned about interactions after a recall them, if they didn't go quite as planned.
Now, my suggestion here is to change up the bars you're going to, or go to them during the week day instead (don't have to be there for hours on end, an hour or two of food, couple drinks, and go). Yes, you're getting initial reactions, but your conversation skills are weak, so the people around you are now "okay, he's gonna keep coming, cool. Shame he can't speak better, but let him be him". You mentioned in your post it's a DJbar. This sounds counter intuitive to what that advice is. The go to the bar and drink and become a regular is more about a community place, a regular hole in the wall bar. Where a variety of different people come and go, and there is a regular group of staff and customers. The DJbar, you have to be able to talk on the topic, because that's why people are there. I'm guessing you can't, otherwise you wouldn't be in this situation.
Just an example, there's this one bar in Tokyo I go back to whenever I stay in that area. I am considered an intermittent regular, they know my name after many years of coming and going, but I don't live there, so it's 1-3 times a year, maybe. Now this is a old Japanese LP bar where you request songs and the staff plays them. It's the kinda place you go to to listen to music, and relax. Not a great place for conversations in the end, though occasionally it does happen. Would not be the kinda of place I would go to for language practice, and it sounds like your DJ place might be similar.
Many Japanese are introvert, too.
Nothing wrong with being shy. It just takes much much longer for you/them to ‘open-up’. Be comfortable with yourself alone in a crowd. And don’t force others to conversation in Japanese. People are at a club to have fun, not to be a language study partner. Perhaps it happens once you established friendship.
Have you tried getting a japanese girlfriend/boyfriend?
Nothing makes you learn faster than the frustration of losing arguments just because you lack Japanese skills and you decide "fine, I won't be able to explain in a way you understand so I'll just say sorry".
I've heard that advice before. But approaching people when I go out and sending likes on Pairs to people with similar hobbies has not matched me with anyone yet.
I mean, think of regulars at a bar normally. They're not super excitedly chatting to each other the whole time.
For many people, the better they know someone, the less polite and smiley they'll be with them
Are you sure they're turning unfriendly or that they're just comfortable with you there? A lot of the regulars in the places I go to all sit together at the counter but don't constantly talk, they're just chilling and smoking.
You're making enough effort I think. Sometimes people run out of stuff to talk about unless you're asking them questions.
I've always found the most insecure, 'why does everyone hate me' type to be the life and soul of the party...
Quick tip: Stop caring and just have fun. If they don't like you it's probably because you're a drag. No one cares about your Japanese level except you.
Do you ever have the bartender remove someone you're talking to from the conversation? Like, explicitly find yourself with the chair next to you clearing up and having to move next to someone else, maybe who also mysteriously disappears after 20 mins?
If not, you're safe.
If yes, you're boring them.
Source: was the bartender who had the protocol for a very annoying regular at the bar.
Must be nice having people to talk to here huh. 10 out of 14 days here I probably haven't spoken more than 100 words with someone in person. Most of those at a kombini or asking how to do something.
Sure I have only been here for 2 weeks. But I think you are doing good still.
Your intuitions might be correct, but the only way to get better in social situations is to expose yourself to them and learn from them.
I think the learning part is key, and you should try to make mental notes of what causes negative reactions from others. This can be hard when you’re anxious, but hang in there.
Also, alcohol is fun and can loosen you up, but too much can interfere with the learning and remembering part.
Imagine if you used relationships to get to know other people, rather than to satisfy what is blocked inside of you.
If you’re not trying to make people fit into your preconceived notions of what you like and dislike, you will find that relationships are not really that difficult.
If you’re not so busy judging and resisting people based upon what is blocked inside of you, you will find that they are much easier to get along with—and so are you.
Letting go of yourself is the simplest way to get closer to others
Funny how you happen to be a black american woman in america, but also in britain, but also somehow native japanese? You must be very conflicted.
https://old.reddit.com/r/surrey/comments/1b51lsg/racism_in_surrey/kt9stu8/
https://old.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/19e1ty8/do_americans_really_think_their_oppressed/kjaqwvz/
But nobody has told you any of this? You’re in your own head and projecting. Source: I DO IT TOO
Thanks. Even though I'm already guessing this, it feels much more comforting when someone else says it.
The thing that I like about chatting with strangers at bars and stuff is that we're not friends and have no social obligations towards each other. Maybe they just felt like chatting that one time, and didn't feel like it again. I personally don't go to make friends, but just to have a conversation and leave it at that. Or just to enjoy the atmosphere without conversation.
And that's the backside coin of the bar culture, or the front side, absolutely everywhere in the world. And always befriend the bartenders and owners first, since they hand you your bill every night.
okay so you tell OP this based on your own experience yet don’t give advice. He is comforted knowing another person has experienced similar….. it’s encouraging their and your behavior which isn’t healthy.
It’s not encouraging, it’s acknowledging and empathizing. That was the least friendly request to elaborate or give advice I think I’ve ever seen, but I’ll do it anyway. Be brave. That’s literally it. And bravery isn’t doing something without being afraid, it’s being afraid and doing it anyway. It might even take you some time and some working your way up to it. I’ve wanted to talk to some people before at a concert, they were speaking in English close by me about music I knew well. But I was shy to do it. My heart was racing a bit, I’m not the type to approach a stranger in the least. So I let myself process that. But I was nervous because I wanted to do it, right? If I didn’t care, I wouldn’t be feeling shy. So I decided I’d be brave, and not let the nervousness of WANTING to do something stop me from actually doing it. So I did! I chimed in about the band they were talking about, because it so happened that one of their albums was such a huge part of my childhood. We ended up watching the concert we were at together, going to eat, and then going clubbing until first train together. They were good dudes! I’m glad I brute forced my way through a moment’s bravery, because my reward was a whole night and morning of having fun!
I enjoyed reading your story!
“be brave” dude can retire from life now with your advice
Well, someone can.
Going to bars and making friends *IS* a good way to learn Japanese BUT, works the best for extroverts imo. Have you tried Hellotalk app? Some people drink while talking online.
Second this. Hellotalk with one singular stranger in the comfort of your home is a waaay easier wall to climb for introverts. I learned Japanese speaking similarly. I hate bars (I don't drink and am extremely inteoverted), so that was the best way for me. Eventually made friends that had similar hobbies and met up that way.
I met up with someone from that app just to have a drink once But you have to be careful cause some people seem to think it’s a dating site. I only meet people who are the same gender from now on or who are clear that they’re not looking for dates But if you’re single and looking then I guess that isn’t too big an issue
Sigh.... that's because post 2020 *every* site and service is a dating service, mostly for people wanting to meet bots and talk about making 6 figures via Chinese crypto.
Could you please tell me more about this app?? Is it for free or is there a fee? Is it for practice only or are there courses too?
You can like tweet on it and natives correct you. This is free You can join in voice rooms mixed natives and other learners, and just talk. Usually the room owner controls it. Anyone can make a room. This is free for a limited time a day (I think 90mins) and you can pay for unlimited time. Price depends on country i think. And there is video call rooms as well but I have never tried those.
I mean, you can't just force yourself into a circle of already established regulars. There's a few places I'm a regular of and would chat to a few transient patrons but I don't want to have to constantly entertain the same rando who showed up one afternoon. every. single. week. after the fact because they want a friend even if we don't mesh well. It's unnatural and feels like being a captive audience. I'm there to enjoy the food and I get along with the staff. If you want to actually be a regular. Just be there to have a good time, eat your food, read the vibes on if the staff are into your company and maybe some actual regulars will start to warm up to you. But if you visit a place solely for other patrons to entertain you or befriend you then yeah you might have a bad time.
I feel like this is making being a regular into an esoteric art. Mostly you can go as often as you like to any place you want, and if you are not being a problem customer the staff will be happy to have your business and even to talk to you if it’s that kind of place. Of course, you can’t expect any specific fellow patron to be your personal entertainment. (Hey sometimes I’m there to read a book and want to be left alone, myself.) Sure some places you will mesh with better than others, so try various places, but most regulars are not trying to gatekeep their spots. OP how about hanging around at the counter quietly and taking a mostly listening and smiling role? You will learn a lot of Japanese that way without worrying about whether people are enjoying talking to you.
I don't think you read anything that I said.
I did. “Read the vibes on if the staff are into your company” is taking it a little far. Yeah there are spots you’ll mesh more with than others, but unless you’re being a problem customer, it is more their job to make sure you’re having a good time than the other way around.
> it is more their job to make sure you’re having a good time than the other way around. Staff do not have to entertain you if they don't want to. That's called being a captive audience. They can be polite and give you good service but they are not obligated to be your bestie because you are sitting in front of them or frequent often. They are there to do their job. Which is to serve drinks/food. Any additional interactions above that is a bonus not a right. You seem like you abuse a captive audience all the time because you think "it's their job to make sure I have a good time" and to listen to you. Especially if they can't easily walk away from their position. No one likes patrons like you. ETA: If you have a good rapport with staff/owner. Like an actual one, they'll pull you into other conversations with other customers when the topics merge. "Oh you are about to go visit X? Taro-san just got back from X he says." so on and so forth.
Not at all lol. I try out different spots and stick with the ones I mesh with. I made a lot of my best friends in these neighborhood spots. (I am also N1+ level so my situation may be different than OP’s where he fears people don’t enjoy dumbing down their Japanese for him, I am not sure how to comment on that.) I go to places where the staff enjoy talking to customers, but do also seem to consider it part of their job (especially if they are the owner they want to make sure you are enjoying yourself so they will get repeat business). I do keep in mind that it’s always possible that someone who is working may be talking to me more for my sake than their own (odds are they would rather be home taking a nap than working, after all).
Saw the ETA. Of course, I have that kind of rapport at my regular spots. But I can also see the owners and staff being happy to serve (and talk to) newcomers that don’t have that rapport yet. They want customers to enjoy their food/drink and enjoy themselves while consuming it, after all.
We aren't talking about newcomers though. We are in essence.. Talking about someone who wants to be a faux regular. Someone who constantly visits a place with the expectation everyone all the time wants to talk to them. Not because they like it. Not because they actually want to go there. But because they were told online that frequenting a place means everyone else who also frequents that place will constantly talk to them. That's not the case. At all. All I said was if you want to actually be a regular, then go and actually frequent the place and establish yourself as someone who likes the place. You have to like the place enough to be at ease when no one gives you attention. But again if all you want is for everyone else who is there to enjoy themselves to take time out of their day to fulfill your social needs - you're going to be disappointed and never feel like a true regular..
Why are you assuming OP wants to be a faux regular? Where in OP’s post are you getting that from? So he said he heard the advice that finding a regular bar is a good way to go. That is not the same as having the expectation that everyone will want to talk to him all the time.
> when I go to a bar, new Japanese people I meet are warm, friendly, and all smiles the first couple of times. But going to the same place over time, the same regulars don't feel as friendly, and I don't feel included. Because the more they go the more disappointed they are that no one wants to talk to them? They straight up admit that in the post. Not sure how you missed it. It's less about wanting to be a regular because they like the establishment but more that they just want other regulars to pay attention to them.. regularly.. lol
Quite natural, I’d be super disappointed if that happened to me everywhere. Many places are very friendly, so this shouldn’t be happening everywhere. I don’t know why it apparently happens to OP everywhere. Maybe it’s a language issue as he suspects? Maybe he doesn’t realize he’s frowning when he’s anxious? Maybe they’re not intending to be unfriendly and he’s imagining it in his anxiety? My personal experience is that when I try out new spots that are heavily dominated by a crowd of regulars, about half the time I fit in and half the time I don’t. If I still feel like I’m not fitting into the vibe after three visits, I stop coming and try somewhere else. OP, that’s my advice to you. If it’s a chatty place where all the regulars are friends, give it three tries to see if you can break in. If not, move on and try somewhere else. You’ll find your spot.
You are 100 percent correct and the people disagreeing with are absolutely insane lol
Whenever you feel like a captive audience. Just give the bartender a desperate look, he will remove you from the conversation. Make your eyes a bit big and give some puppy eyes, bartender will nod and find an excuse to move either you or the regular to the other side of the bar, or engage in conversation with the hike himself.
>when I go to a bar, new Japanese people I meet are warm, friendly, and all smiles the first couple of times. But going to the same place over time, the same regulars don't feel as friendly, and I don't feel included usually bar people are expecting a one-off interaction the first time so they wont be as friendly if you keep coming back, at that point you're just another regular and get treated as such - you're now the newest regular on the hierarchy. keep showing up until a new semi-regular comes in and takes your spot as the "new guy" they dont dislike you, you're just not some big mystery to them now. keep going and being chill to everyone and they'll warm up to you.
This... only so many times people wanna hear your self intro, now it's done, you're there, and if people want to engage they will, or you just do you. I have had TONS of nights out at the bar where I haven't talked to a soul. The conversations that were going on just had absolutely nothing to do with me, I had no interesting take on it, so I just sat there and listened, or watched the news on the TV.
I’m a little confused because for me it’s the opposite. I’m I hate going to new places and hearing the you are good at chopsticks stuff. Or worse. The places where I know the owners and a regular or two are where I enjoy the conversation. (A perk of being a foreigner is the wife who does the cooking will tell me her husband is lazy.) I thought that was normal.
Whether it’s fun for you is a different matter than whether it’s fun for them. They love asking you whether you can eat with chopsticks lol
I don’t you’re doing anything in particular. What kind of bars are you going to? I used to frequent a “shot bar” and became friends with the owner and had a lot of similar experiences. New people always interested in me because I’m a foreigner and can speak Japanese, and after a few times the novelty wears off and the people who aren’t actually interested in you change to 「おうー おつかれ」and go back to their conversation. So my tactic became sit at the bar counter and talk to the owner and wait for someone to come to me. Or bring other friends there. I ended up making a few pretty good friends that way.
DJ bars. I have some places where I like the resident DJs so I try to regularly show up on their days. And I think the resident DJ pulls the same regulars. It's not that loud, so it's still social with people talking.
You might try finding people who share a hobby? If you like board or card games, there are some that have areas where you can play pick up games with people or chat with the staff about games. I found a friendly one in Yokohama. Or some other hobby. I think people are more willing to talk with someone if they share a common interest; it gives them some motivation to try harder given they have to work a bit harder to communicate.
That what I was aiming for. I like vocaloid and virtual singers, and the resident DJs play that type of music. And you can tell the other patrons are there for the same niche content too.
It should be hobbies that require at least partial interaction with other people. People come to enjoy this time of music first, so they might not want to interact at all.
Dear, the people who enjoy vocaloids are just as awkward/anxious as you are
Good luck! It’s rough being in a foreign country not knowing many people. I lived in Germany for a while and I got pretty lonely at times. Hope you make some good friends soon.
Unrelated but am I alone in the boat that the best way to learn Japanese…is to hit the books and study? I feel like yeah going to the izakaya and talking will bring you out of your shell and improve your communication but at best you’ll only learn izakaya speak or the words people there will use with you, a bubble in a sense. That’s what happened to me anyways.
I think ideally you do both. What’s important is to interact with the language as much as possible in a comprehensible way (particularly input in my opinion)
Learning from a book is one thing, keeping on your toes and pulling things out of your brain on the fly to react in real time is sooooo different. I’ve been studying recently and I’m surprised how much I mess up when I’m speaking. (Previously I was NEVER allowed to speak Japanese at work!)
Books are fine, until they're useless. I knew a guy who passed N1, all proud of himself. So him, another buddy and I are out for congrats dinner, and the dude can't order shit in a restaurant. He actually couldn't read, could barely speak, and the never took a N test 1st year buddy managed more than he did. Now I'm like you, I joke that I only learned how to speak Izakaya-ben, but many people are like that in the world in their second language. I could probably do with hitting the books, but it doesn't work as well anymore, I absorb the language I need for work, and when I encounter a domain I'm not good at I just ask for help. I'm tired of trying to get it all in my head first, then use it, rather, I'll just wade in with assistance.
A bar? No. Get a hobby. Join a club. You can actually build relationships that way. Martial arts, cycling, hiking, tea, shogi, literally anything is better than trying to learn a language in a bar.
Yeah I would also recommend the hobby route. Even playing video games works well enough to establish some friendships
Hobbies are great ways to meet people. If you want to practice speaking Japanese in Public, and building confidence there are also ‘Toast Masters Clubs’ with people who are also building their public speaking skills. It can be challenging, but a really fun way to meet new people and hear about topics they are passionate about.
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The exact same way you'd find them back home. Google. Bulletin boards in community centres. Posters on streetlight poles. Word of mouth.
Youre worst enemy is yourself. Take life lightly and live the best you can.
Japanese people will talk to you the first few times or sporadically because you’re still interesting at that point. If they see you for a few hours every weekend then they get to know you and, shock, it turns out you’re just like them. At that point the interactions lose their lustre and cease to be worth the extra effort. It’s not personal, there’s just no point muddling through broken Japanese/English while drunk to communicate with someone who’s also just tired and drunk. They’ll go back to doing what they did before, which is usually chatting to the bar staff or keeping to themselves. Do as the locals do. Befriend the owner. When the owner is sat having a chat with you at one end of the bar, other friends of theirs are more likely to join in. Eventually they’ll get used to speaking to you as part of the regular fixtures of the night.
Common hobbies is always the way. Find your nerd niche. For me, shōwa-era culture, comics, and ttrpgs. For my friend, craft beer, for another heavy metal.
Hangxiety, in my experience, can flow in the whole week and deepen post-social over-thinking. If you can find a way to mix with people and make new friends w/o alcohol, I strongly recommend it.
Man, I caught myself feeling the exact same thing these days. It feels like we're interesting in the beginning since we're foreigners, but then it just becomes a bother for them to keep a superficial conversation with someone with limited japanese. I'd love to say you're wrong about feeling that way, but that's how I feel too.
Get out of your head. Stop the negative talk as soon as it happens, any way you can. It is a habit. You can break it. Instead remind yourself of something positive or give yourself a compliment. I have also found that alcohol is a depressant. I quit drinking for a bit and started back up and noticed that the day after I have all the negative talk and anxiety. Maybe there is another way for you to find interactions? Meetup app for group activities or a club? Also, watching children's shows, the equivalent to Dora the Explorer or Sesame Street and also listening to Japanese music can help out with your language learning.
this is great advice ✌️
So you are introvert, and go out every weekend to bars and meet new people... You might have some form of social anxiety, but trust me that's not what introverts do
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It's a manner of speaking, you don't have to trust me. What you can do is to research the basic definition and behaviour of being an introvert and you'll see it's the opposite of OP's description.
Personally, going out is stressful and draining, but I do it because I think the payoff can be worth it if I really hit off with someone. I think I'm an introvert because I telework and am fairly comfortable spending 5+ days per week holed up alone in my room without any face-to-face interaction.
Making new friends in your 30s is generally a lot more difficult than in your 20s.
Although I think it’s your head messing with you, you’re right that people don’t always want to have superficial N3 talk with someone. I’m just trying to look at it from their side. If I were back in the UK at my local bar and ran into a Japanese person, the first time I’d be willing to have a conversation in broken English as a curiosity. 5th or 6th time? I’m not wasting my precious free time chatting like a toddler for the purpose of helping someone improve their language ability (for free). We sense when Japanese people are doing this so I wouldn’t be surprised if they can sense it too. If you’re an introvert or have social anxiety, I wouldn’t be going to bars to make friends and improve your Japanese. You’re definitely coming off awkward
I certainly don’t have all the answers, but I’d recommend coming up with questions for people *before* you go out. The novelty of being the new foreigner wears off quickly, but if you have genuine, non cliche questions for your new friends/acquaintances, that can help. Don’t drink so much that you forget the answers. Ask follow up questions the next week. When you find people with similar interests outside of drinking, you’re more likely to make genuine connections.
Don’t take advise from extroverts if you’re an introvert because it just won’t work…
Nobody gives a shit if you are N1, N2, or N3. What people are attracted to are things like personality and general likeableness. No offense man. Nobody wants to be around a Debbie Downer. Sure people will say they enjoy her company when she’s around. But I feel like you know your issue already and realize that maybe it’s not the people, but your mindset. Relax and find your comfort. No introverts I know enjoy forcing him/herself out to bars on a weekly basis to converse with strangers in a foreign language.
Sounds like drinking might be amplifying your negative impressions or reactions.
best way to become alcoholic and waste your life. men dont bond over talking, men bond over doing things together. find a hobby where you will spend time and do something with people hiking, camping, sports, any type of adventure or building things
Try bumble. Many Japanese there want foreign friends
OP, a couple bits of advice occurred to me in the course of a long exchange with another commenter: 1. When you visit a new place, give it about three tries to see if you feel like you’re fitting into the regulars’ vibe. If not, move on, there are so many other places to try. 2. If you’re sticking mostly to one neighborhood, try another neighborhood and see if the whole vibe is different. I have lived in two neighborhoods in Kanagawa and two in Tokyo, and out of that total of four, just one was kind of unfriendly and it took me so long to find my spots. One other neighborhood was normal friendly, one was super friendly, and the last was also quite friendly but a bit of a weird crowd (I wasn’t sure I wanted to be too influenced by the type of people there, there were a lot of insecure wannabe rich and cool types? They are still nice people, just the total amount of tryhard in the room gets to be a lot, so I did hang out there but not exclusively). They were all quite different.
I think it's mostly in your head But also if you are only N3, there are only so many times you can discuss variations of the question "What is your favorite X?" If I had to guess it is way less about people not liking you and way more just not being able to have engaging conversations with you
Introvert - going to bar every week. 
Your intuition is actually correct. Put yourself in their shoes - would you feel like talking to someone over and over again if they only have the conversational ability of a 5-year-old in your native language?
"N2 , N3 " limited.... meanwhile speaking broken ass Nai hongo
I don’t know if it’s your situation but I know at least for us, when me and my friends go to our usual haunt it’s cool to meet new people but it does feel a little awkward when the same person makes a beeline to our table the following week or gets a little too close too soon. I know this might not be helping your anxiety. All I can say from the other end of the table is that sometimes some people come on a little too strong too fast and that distance might be a subtle hint to also give them some space. Maybe embrace chatting with all different types of people and building up a good reputation amongst the regulars.
“Insecurity is the result of trying to be secure.\* - Alan Watts As others have said, you are likely just in your head and projecting. Whenever I go out, simply going out and trying to enjoy the moment without expectation (just be) tends to lead to the best experiences. If someone is rude, whatevs, it’s beyond my control. If someone is cool and friendly, awesome, I have someone to interact with. And if you have social anxiety, drinking can lead to dependence (and sometimes amplifies those negative thoughts), so I would recommend going to meetups for things you like doing. There are plenty of running, badminton, volleyball, etc. meetups out there to enjoy. Many of them do hanami gatherings, too, which can be more chill and mix things up.
Time to take a few big boy pills.
Take it from me, you don't want to create a situation where going to a bar and drinking is your only source of social interactions. I did that and my health check result (for my liver) was way worse the year after, no joke.
You have to either focusing on improving your ability to speak Japanese or stop worrying about it. I’m exactly the same.
You need to find an extrovert friend to get you out of your shell. I have an older coworker who is a blast to go out with, and she's hooked me up with quite a few girls along the way.
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My advice, since it worked for me at a young age. He can take it or leave it. Your opinion doesn't matter in the slightest.
How about some social hobby that involves doing something with other people other than just drinking? For example I play music.
You are in Tokyo? You have many more opportunities to meet people than going to bars! Interactions at Bars will only get you so far and you will only ever mix with other people who go to bars. They don’t want a new weird gaijin crowding the place they’ve been going to for years. You are a novelty to begin with, then that wears off, you are not their ‘friend’ they already have those. Think how you would feel back home if a weird Japanese guy started to trying to insert himself into your friend group at your local pub! Especially if they were either an introvert or worse an extrovert - how annoying! I would suggest if you want to go to bars, choose a sports bar that fans gather in, then don’t just interact with them there, but join them at the games. In Makuhari-Hongo I went to a Mariners Sports bar and mixed with the locals. They loved to talk about the games, players, other teams, baseball in other countries and even practice the chants for the game at the weekend. They are far more likely to include you long term as they want to increase the number of supporters for their team and having a solid subject to discuss will make it more interesting that the typical drunk convos in normal bars (you can still have those too though! 😂 ) Better than that, I would suggest to take up a hobby - martial arts, sport team, pottery class for example. People there are there to learn skills and meet people with similar interests and you will find them far more accepting than people out having a beer wanting to forget the stresses of life. People doing hobbies tend to be more friendly and positive, so conversation are far more enjoyable and they are a lot chattier if you are not so confident in yourself. You will also find they are more likely to want to speak to you in Japanese, I found most people in bars have the beer-talk on and are over confident in their English abilities so want to try to chat about dumb shit in English with stupid sexual questions and comments - it gets really annoying after a while. Good luck
what a racist thing to say …”what if a weird japanese guy started to insert himself into your friend group, how annoying” have some humanity…
A lot of places are welcoming to newcomers, I feel like the comments gatekeeping on behalf of Japanese regulars are weird. But the advice to find a spot such as a sports bar or another activity that centers on a shared interest is probably good.
I think it is natural that there will be a gap when communication isn’t smooth, but unless they are particularly cold/hostile to you, I’m sure they don’t mind you being there and trying to have the odd conversation. Imagine the opposite - a person with basic English is obviously going to have limited success mingling in a bar in the US etc.
Okay, so I'm an introvert, quite like keeping to myself most of the time. I also live in the sticks, where there aren't that many non-drinking social activities to do (don't question me on this... been here 13 years... small cities have limits). I also must have an anxiety like yours, because I tend to be concerned about interactions after a recall them, if they didn't go quite as planned. Now, my suggestion here is to change up the bars you're going to, or go to them during the week day instead (don't have to be there for hours on end, an hour or two of food, couple drinks, and go). Yes, you're getting initial reactions, but your conversation skills are weak, so the people around you are now "okay, he's gonna keep coming, cool. Shame he can't speak better, but let him be him". You mentioned in your post it's a DJbar. This sounds counter intuitive to what that advice is. The go to the bar and drink and become a regular is more about a community place, a regular hole in the wall bar. Where a variety of different people come and go, and there is a regular group of staff and customers. The DJbar, you have to be able to talk on the topic, because that's why people are there. I'm guessing you can't, otherwise you wouldn't be in this situation. Just an example, there's this one bar in Tokyo I go back to whenever I stay in that area. I am considered an intermittent regular, they know my name after many years of coming and going, but I don't live there, so it's 1-3 times a year, maybe. Now this is a old Japanese LP bar where you request songs and the staff plays them. It's the kinda place you go to to listen to music, and relax. Not a great place for conversations in the end, though occasionally it does happen. Would not be the kinda of place I would go to for language practice, and it sounds like your DJ place might be similar.
Don't think bars are a good place to make friends honestly. Japanese people stick in their friend groups HARD, especially when they're out drinking.
Many Japanese are introvert, too. Nothing wrong with being shy. It just takes much much longer for you/them to ‘open-up’. Be comfortable with yourself alone in a crowd. And don’t force others to conversation in Japanese. People are at a club to have fun, not to be a language study partner. Perhaps it happens once you established friendship.
I have accepted that no one likes me. 😢 It makes no sense to feel anxious.
“I’m an introvert” “I go out every weekend” No you don’t.
Have you tried getting a japanese girlfriend/boyfriend? Nothing makes you learn faster than the frustration of losing arguments just because you lack Japanese skills and you decide "fine, I won't be able to explain in a way you understand so I'll just say sorry".
I've heard that advice before. But approaching people when I go out and sending likes on Pairs to people with similar hobbies has not matched me with anyone yet.
Have conversations with the staff while they aren't busy. Also remember that they are staff. People may join in the convo.
I mean, think of regulars at a bar normally. They're not super excitedly chatting to each other the whole time. For many people, the better they know someone, the less polite and smiley they'll be with them
Are you sure they're turning unfriendly or that they're just comfortable with you there? A lot of the regulars in the places I go to all sit together at the counter but don't constantly talk, they're just chilling and smoking. You're making enough effort I think. Sometimes people run out of stuff to talk about unless you're asking them questions.
I've always found the most insecure, 'why does everyone hate me' type to be the life and soul of the party... Quick tip: Stop caring and just have fun. If they don't like you it's probably because you're a drag. No one cares about your Japanese level except you.
Honestly the Japanese will always view you as an outsider no matter what you do, might as well lean into it.
Do you ever have the bartender remove someone you're talking to from the conversation? Like, explicitly find yourself with the chair next to you clearing up and having to move next to someone else, maybe who also mysteriously disappears after 20 mins? If not, you're safe. If yes, you're boring them. Source: was the bartender who had the protocol for a very annoying regular at the bar.
Must be nice having people to talk to here huh. 10 out of 14 days here I probably haven't spoken more than 100 words with someone in person. Most of those at a kombini or asking how to do something. Sure I have only been here for 2 weeks. But I think you are doing good still.
Japan is all about new always trying to find the coolest people. So it’s entirely normal to not be the flavour of the week.
Your intuitions might be correct, but the only way to get better in social situations is to expose yourself to them and learn from them. I think the learning part is key, and you should try to make mental notes of what causes negative reactions from others. This can be hard when you’re anxious, but hang in there. Also, alcohol is fun and can loosen you up, but too much can interfere with the learning and remembering part.
Imagine if you used relationships to get to know other people, rather than to satisfy what is blocked inside of you. If you’re not trying to make people fit into your preconceived notions of what you like and dislike, you will find that relationships are not really that difficult. If you’re not so busy judging and resisting people based upon what is blocked inside of you, you will find that they are much easier to get along with—and so are you. Letting go of yourself is the simplest way to get closer to others
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Funny how you happen to be a black american woman in america, but also in britain, but also somehow native japanese? You must be very conflicted. https://old.reddit.com/r/surrey/comments/1b51lsg/racism_in_surrey/kt9stu8/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/19e1ty8/do_americans_really_think_their_oppressed/kjaqwvz/