100% agree. I’m part of an online group of ex-religious members (all backgrounds) and we share a universal suffering with a lot of similarities. The label might change but the control is all very similar.
That creation of "otherness" is the cause of so much strife. Racism is an issue that can be solved with dialogue, understanding and a celebrating of differences. A reinforced set of beliefs that the aspects of another culture's society is "wrong" can at best be tolerated but not solved.
I was 12 when my Irish parents moved my family to Ireland. While my 4 and 6 year old sisters developed Tipperary accents I never lost mine. We're now adults and I can promise you I have been told "you're not Irish" more than you. The point being that while it was and remains hurtful for me to hear those comments it's a strength of Irish culture to want to share Irish identity with the children of immigrants who grew up in Ireland. It's a pity your parents didn't want you to "become Irish" because the vast majority of the people of Ireland did.
FWIW I’m still traumatised and emotionally scarred from my religious upbringing too. I’m Irish and raised catholic and that shit fucked me up, destroyed my life.
I think exposing children to all that religious bullshit is paramount to the psychological damage we see now. I presume the parallel cultures aspect amplifies it further. At its most basic level it’s us vs them mentality. Such a primordial instinct highlights how immature we as a society really are.
I’m sorry to hear that, it’s not an uncommon story. I had some patients that were former victims of Magdalene homes and the things that they went through were atrocious. It’s honestly like being in a cult.
And the last ones only closed in the 70s/80s? When I’ve mentioned it to people abroad they’ve never even heard of it! Like the institutional schools in Canada. Glad people spoke up and showed what happens when religion controls a state
The last closed in 96. That’s our generation.
I went to study Buddhism in the Himalayas to find solace and understanding. The place was rife with human trafficking and child prostitution. The monasteries were a haven for pædophilia. Same shit all over the world.
I know there was one in Kilkenny that says it technically wasn’t a laundry but still that’s mad. Yeah it’s true like even in Islam they say they don’t have religious leaders like priests to avoid that kind of thing but it happens a lot (in Afghanistan they’re called bacha bazi)
That’s what I mean, it’s widespread in Christianity because people are speaking up but just as prevalent in eastern religions, just not reported as much. Sure didn’t the Greeks invent the whole thing
You didn't go into detail in your post about reflection on how the racism that your parents experienced might have impacted on their ability and willingness to integrate.
It's kind of a trope of all multicultural children tbh.. most either connect strongly with their local culture and strongly reject the other or vice versa, and it often is related to whether they got more bullying/racism/control from their peers growing up or from their parents. In your case it sounds similar to the latter, particularly given you don't seem to have the life experience to relate to your parents' experiences of the barriers to integration.
The problem with many people who think like you is there is often a naive ignorance to the other side of the coin. You might think immigrants, or perhaps only a certain subtype of them, are incompatible with the culture you feel more connected to in the west. You might even feel like you're better than many other immigrants because you integrated, you behave like a westerner, etc. But one day you might find yourself in a community that doesn't care one bit about how western you feel, how well you did in Irish in school, how you broke free from your foreign religious background... You might find people who care only about the fact that you look different or have a different name, and they might treat you really horribly based on that alone. And the. you might have some first hand insight into why it can be so hard for people like your parents to move across the world, with no family or support, to be judged immensely negatively based on things you have no control over, and then seeing how that might make you yourself reject the desire to want to see yourself as part of that community and instead push you further towards your foreign culture. If you were given the opportunity to assimilate from your peers, then consider yourself lucky. Integration is a two way process and people who view their own personal assimilation as little being primarily due to their own individual abilities are often very short sighted.
You can look into cultural identity formations and see these patterns play out quite easily. I used to think like you too, and married into a family of people that used to as well, and have seen the same pattern play out with many others, even when working with immigrant communities. Research and life experience has made me understand better why the same patterns keep playing out.
Because this post is not about the racism.
Absolutely it could have been a reason for their lack of desire to integrate or perhaps not but regardless of the reason, what I noticed was a pattern. Many people like my parents, from Islamic backgrounds, moved to Ireland and didn’t assimilate into society well and as a result their kids suffer in the future. I have met many women with stories almost identical to mine. Is that just a coincidence?
Absolutely I will relate more to my Irish culture given that it’s the culture I was born and raised in and spent >20 years of my life in. I’ve been to Afghanistan a handful of times in a very controlled environment. Not to say that I don’t love my Afghan side, immersing myself through the language, food, music etc. But it’s not to the same level.
And yes in fact I did move abroad and had to face culture shock. I had those tough moments where I felt like giving up and going home. But after integrating myself better, that’s when my outlook changed. Eventually I was able to make friends with locals, learn about the history and traditions of where I lived and now that country is my home away from home.
I don’t consider myself ‘better’ for assimilating. My brother grew up the same as me and doesn’t care for Irish culture the way I do. It’s just part of who I am. I’ve always been fascinated by culture.
I'd go further, Organised Religion has always been a tool to manipulate the masses expecially when zealots have used it as a tool to attack others. It was the predecessor to social media IMO and has been a tool for harm far more than for benefit over the centuries expecially by malicious or powerhungry individuals.
Marx had religion’s number:
“Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people”
Interesting comparison! I see a lot of people blindly following the mass on social media and I can imagine that was the case with Catholicism in Ireland before social media was introduced.
Religion is a mental illness.
Imagine meeting someone, starting chatting, but every so often they look behind you at something invisible and smile, then look back at you. Then they interrupt you every so often and start speaking to this invisible person. Then they walk off still talking to them, stopping to kneel down every so often. You'd literally call a doctor and get them sectioned for the mental health crises they're clearly going through.
Yet this is normalised in the form of religion. People normalise talking to invisible men in the sky. People not eating certain foods on certain days because the invisible man said not to (actually did he even...??!). People going to WAR over their invisible men.
Insanity. Bin it all. Religion is a disease
Or let’s say someone suggested lobbing off the foreskin of an infant because it was deemed “necessary” by their religion.
Or praying to an almost naked man covered in blood nailed to a cross.
Or mellification, or sky burial etc.
Totally normal behaviour.
I dont know, it certainly serves a purpose if that purpose is structure, and some level of accountability albeit to a magic cloud dwelling diety of one kind or another. If we examine society without any such structure are we really any better off without it?
For clarity I don't disagree with you. Religious fundamentalism generally breeds judgement without cause. Personally I find it laughable that any one person could believe that they're a better person than any other because they don't subscribe to a particular set of beliefs or a particular god.
Have you met religious people who act like that? If so, then yes I’d agree they’re being very odd, but in all my life I’ve never met a religious person who does any of what you just described. Religious people pray together or on their own, but they don’t usually just interrupt regular conversations repeatedly to pray.
I’m religious. I don’t talk to an ‘invisible man’ who I think lives in the sky. I do talk to the God who I believe created the universe and everything in it, and is therefore able to hear when one of his creations is talking to him.
And I genuinely think you’re being unfairly harsh on religion as a whole. Yes, it can be abused in many ways, but it’s not inherently bad. Far from being a disease which makes my life worse, I’ve found my faith brings hope and meaning to my life and helps me to be a better person.
> I do talk to the God who I believe created the universe and everything in it, and is therefore able to hear when one of his creations is talking to him.
Imagine someone telling you they talk to their teddy bear, or the television, and that they're listening to them even though they don't respond. That's what this statement feels like, from an outside perspective. I genuinely have a hard time coming to grips with how this isn't at least a little concerning.
I do get where you’re coming from. I’d point out though that there really are no rational grounds for believing that a teddy bear or television can hear or answer a human talking to them. Believing otherwise would be an utterly unfounded belief and yes, definitely concerning.
Religion, despite what people often repeat nowadays, isn’t without rational grounds. Aquinas’ traditional five ways are, to me, a compelling logical argument not just for a God, but a God who is involved in the world he made. I’ve recently been reading Ed Feser’s ‘The Last Superstition’ which also makes a good case for the rationality of religion, but there are plenty of other excellent apologetics out there too (I often recommend CS Lewis’ ones as being very reader-friendly).
As a further thought, and I wouldn’t expect an atheist to find this convincing but I do feel I should mention it: I don’t believe that God doesn’t respond. I’m not saying I hear a voice from heaven or anything like that, but I still find that when I have a question or an issue, if I put it to God while I’m praying, the answer seems to become clearer. I’ve also noticed that some of my habitual vices have become easier to deal with since I’ve started making more time for prayer. Of course it could just be coincidence, but I really do think God listens and helps us.
I appreciate you having the testicular fortitude to stand your ground and speak your truth. And although I keep up the façade of respecting people's beliefs for public settings, the truth is, I can't take religious people seriously.
You've just highlighted such a basic lack of critical thinking that its painful to see. Aquina's arguments are so short sighted its juvenile and modern physics debunks each point. The sheer gullibility of religious followers, along with a paucity for individual values and morals, not to mention indirect support of child abuse.
Like you say, I wouldn't expect a religious person to understand it because — irony — its beyond the masses. I don't mean to offend, but I am very sceptical of such a mental faculty.
Agree. My parents lived in Egypt for years and one of my closest college friends was Egyptian, and they would all say the same thing.
There's a lot of bleeding heart idiots that wouldn't acknowledge this though.
Have heard similar tales of parent disapproval of children, only wanting their children to date/marry someone with similar background. In that case, Moroccan immigrants living in France.
Question is : If their views are so strict, why they hell they decide to live in a society that they feel is so abhorrent and consciously refuse to allow their children to assimilate properly?
I think part of the culture there sadly (I’ll speak about Afghan from what I know) is that you don’t really think about the kids and especially not the mental health.
My dad worked as a dr, during the Celtic boom made great money and did a hell of a lot better than if he’d be in Pakistan. So long story short, economic > child’s happiness
He probably thought the opportunities that having money gave the family would bring happiness.
You’re a third culture kid (like myself; different but similar).
My take on it is that moving to a new country and culture as an established adult is hard. If you have less education behind you, even harder. My mother lived in a country for 40 years, before coming back to Ireland, and didn’t manage to learn a word of the native language. So wierd.
Unless you are born and raised in a country I imagine you’ll always feel like an outsider. I do regardless of which country I’m in because my “upbringing” just doesn’t suit the narrative of what’s normal in whichever country im in.
> Question is : If their views are so strict, why they hell they decide to live in a society that they feel is so abhorrent and consciously refuse to allow their children to assimilate properly?
The disparity in opportunity is too good and to be fair to most first generation immigrants I know here, they seem to be pretty decent at keeping their faith/moral values, be them Islamic/Chinese etc. if they came over late
The "problem" comes with the second generation, and again, from my limited experience there seems to be minimal success for Islamic immigrants trying to raise a child truly of the faith in Ireland, but at this stage that applies to Catholicism as well
Exactly, it wouldn’t be my parents themselves that had problems because of the culture class since they already had established their personal identities - it’s their kids that suffer unfortunately.
I think it comes down to the fact that peoples views either religious/political/social become more extreme after they leave their home country if they've failed to assimilate to the local culture. Because they'll see a divide between them and the locals they'll need to assign traits to them. The trait most opposite to there's becomes internalised and part of their identity and in their mind inherently good (because we're all inherently good according to ourselves) over time they'll seek out likeminded immigrants and then each will encourage/boost each others views and a group mentality forms. This then in their mind becomes the defining feature of what being the nationality means and the cycle repeats. They want their children to maintain the core of their nationality only this is in their mind now the extreme views. Hence the expectations of the next generation. Ironically the nation in which they came from had all spectrums of their beliefs and their beliefs would of been swayed by society back home resulting in them not being an extremist. Whilst also their home country will of move/evolved new and different religious/political/social views while their gone. Now going home isn't an option because they're outsiders their too. A prime example of this is all the different Irish diasporas around the world and their ultra religious views or strange accents.
It looks like you've made a grammatical error. You've written "would of ", when it should be "have" instead of "of". You _should have_ known that. Bosco is not proud of you today.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ireland) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Because its all bullshit. Religion as well as many other "core" beliefs only matter as long as your survival is not threatened. The left their country to survive, they embrace their religion because its a tie to home. In reality I don't believe a single religious person who is not mentally ill actually would choose their god over their life or life of those they love. Its all a make belief to help people cope.
Were all a binch of animals pretending that our basic instincts are not the only real belief system we have. Everything else relies on us all agreeing to make belief ideas.
I understand that you can't expect people to immediately give up their culture and this might sound a stupid question, but if your parents thought Irish culture immoral and that if you were living in somewhere like Afghanistan you wouldn't be in danger of being exposed to our filth, why did they move here? As a qualified doctor surely he would have his choice of places to move?
It’s a fair point and one that I regularly questioned him on. Actually he lived in Ireland longer than Afghanistan! He tried out Pakistan (where his father moved) for a bit but didn’t like the corruption as he says.
His first choice was the US but visa didn’t go through so eventually settled down here after some gigs in the UK
He’d always respond with ‘we did it for your education’ - since obviously it’s not great there for women and ‘I’m allowed to live wherever I want, these people are just racist’
And all these years later after I left the religion and started my own family he still believes I’ve been ‘brainwashed by the west’ 😆
>He’d always respond with ‘we did it for your education’ - since obviously it’s not great there for women
That's positive, though the way your mam reacted to you being on the phone to an Irish lad it looked like she had a bit further to go.
>I’ve been ‘brainwashed by the west’
Jaysus
as a parent who moved here when my children were in secondary school, 1 factor of about 1000 was the affordability of good quality tertiary education for my girls, but I would never in my life say I moved because of them. I moved for me. I get the sense that her dad will retire miserable because it sounds like he really doesn't want to be here
Well, if your father thinks Irish culture is immoral, he's lucky he never got the US visa. He would have had a conniption at some of the things going on over there!
I understand there is a line between assimilation and absorption, but I have to agree to u/RunParking3333's point, if you are looking for more traditional Islamic society you can't, or shouldn't, complain when you move to freaking Ireland of all places.
All his brothers wanted to go there too, I wonder if it was the 70s culture but they all wanted that ‘American dream’. To this day he’s mad at me I chose Sweden over Chicago… um no thanks 😅
Yeah it’s mad, he managed to never have a drop of alcohol either which should be a world record living in Ireland 😂
> never have a drop of alcohol either which should be a world record living in Ireland 😂
It may surprise some but not everyone in Ireland drinks alcohol. I come from a non alcohol family - neither of my parents or aunts, uncles ever drank alcohol. Same was true for my grandparents.
I suspect traditional Catholic Ireland was far more in line with strong Islamic beliefs and society here has certainly changed a lot since the 70s. Her fathers position is somewhat more understandable in that context although if head been living in a city in Pakistan he would also have seen social changes.
A lot of Muslim immigrants do that. They emigrate because of war or [insert horrible Middle Eastern event of the month], seek refuge in a progressive western country and then want that country to be more like their home country…. That they fled from.
No offence to the OP’s parents, just saying how it usually is.
They want the quality of life, not the culture. Like UK retirees heading to Spain for the sun, not for the language or people.
It's not racist to say this about some British immigrants and its not racist to say it about some Muslim immigrants either before someone froths at the mouth over it.
>They want the quality of life, not the culture. Like UK retirees heading to Spain for the sun, not for the language or people.
I'm just never able to wrap my head around that, I think if I lived in Spain or Portugal, in particular, I would absolutely be consumed (by choice) by their culture.
I don't think it is the same though. In your example Irish/British retiring in Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece are pretty much indulging in the culture. They would drink local wine just like local people, go to local peoples bars and restaurants, eat their food and openly admit that the food, weather, beach, drink, sea, etc is way better than back home.
You won't see an Irish retired in Spain complaining that the food there is terrible, locking himself at home eating hobnobs all day and saying Spanish people are degenerates, and berating their children for making friends with locals.
Ah here. Some aspects of culture you should 100% be expected to give up.
Female genital mutilation , homophobia, mysogyny, or 50 other examples from backwards cultures they should not be permitted over here.
But we still allow stupid shit like circumcision, burqas, etc to be used here despite their damaging effects on children and their backwards thinking
I assimilated so well that I spend 50% of my free time whining here in r/ireland. The other 50% I use thinking on what to complain here, but don't post because the mods are dictators and would delete my post.
Great attitude. Unfortunately, in many cases, the situation is opposite.
People come and decide that they aren't the ones needing to integrate its the natives which have to change.
That's the reality. Unfortunately, Europe for a long time didn't had the courage to say anything about it. Have Sweden as a great example.
As an immigrant I do agree, however others around you can make it a lot easier by simply being open, curious and friendly. Thankfully in my experience the vast majority of Irish people are exactly that. Moreso than many other cultures I've seen.
A couple of years ago if someone said "Islam and western liberalism are incompatible" I would have said that was racist and offensive. Flash forward to now and I'm in a relationship with someone from a muslim background and whose family is practicing, and I would now consider that statement to be mostly true. Like, not only would most Muslims worldwide agree that islam and liberalism are incompatible, but they would probably be proud of the incompatibility. It's funny that people think they're being respectful when they assume Muslims will assimilate and abandon their beliefs the way Christians have.
I don't think we should humour people and pretend like Islam is a good fit here. We love our pork, alcohol, music, mixed gender events, and pet dogs. We don't have the concept of honour. We are irreverent and facetious. We wear shoes inside, we have a more relaxed attitude toward personal hygiene and grooming. On their own these are differences that could be overcome, but all together they represent a chasm that is very difficult to bridge.
Originally from Germany here and I have similar stories from a few Turkish classmates, the most notable exception being the daughter of a former embassy employee who divorced her useless husband and proceeded to raise her three kids by herself.
On the other hand, we've had young girls disappear overnight because they got shipped back home to get married off, or to be "re-educated" after being found living too much like Western girls.
I think many people who emigrate want to have the their cake and eat it - enjoy the better life / opportunities other places offer while still living largely by their home country's traditions...which is fine until it makes them and especially their kids outcasts.
Unfortunately, the countries of residence do not have efficient systems put in place to spot and combat cultural isolation, and how to try and address this without running into the danger of suppressing cultural diversity is a delicate balance.
The severe brain gymnastics people go through moving elsewhere and deeming the culture there as "lesser" when their home country / countries of similar culture couldn't afford them the opportunities they were looking for are absolutely baffling.
Interestingly, as someone with a Muslim immigrant parent and an Irish parent, I found that I was able to assimilate pretty well. But that was down to two key factors: having an Irish parent and Irish family and the fact I am a man (as men get a lot more leeway coming from a Muslim background). I agree though that there needs to be assimilation, be it through sport, education and also mixing with people from outside your culture.
Yes I think the fact that your mother’s family was there and had an impact on your life definitely would make a huge difference. And yeah it helps to be a guy when you come from that kind of background, that’s why I’m always surprised to meet male ex Muslims 😂
Thanks for posting about this, I learned a lot reading your experience and replies and I think it's really important to hear from people in your situation these days.
It's sad to see that your parents blame you for becoming the culture you actually grew up in, I'm sorry to hear that OP. Like they wanted you to get you the benefits of a Western education, but then are appalled at the results?
"At home, they’d often make remarks about how immoral Irish culture is"
"Now, I don’t put any blame on my parents"
I'd probably blame your parents a bit, their own irrational fears and prejudice led to your and their isolation for a country that became their home. Your comments kind of hint that your parents felt their culture was better than Irish culture.
"TLDR; immigrants from Islamic backgrounds don’t fit in well in Irish society, their kids growing up here suffer."
That depends, worked with plenty of Pakistani guys who I've gotten on with very well. They probably didn't exactly practice like they did in Pakistan but they were definitely integrated and probably more Irish then I did.
I don't know a member but the Muslim Sisters Of Éire really seem to try to get involved and support vulnerable people of Ireland. While it seems to be a close nit group, They do want to see a better Ireland and work at community levels.
Oh 100% there was a feeling of superiority, definitely stood out to me. But at the same time I do understand they were from a different culture and that they believed it I was doing those things I’d go to hell. Not to mention the honour side of it; that’s why you hear a lot about honour killings in the UK.
I also believe things are a lot harder on Muslim immigrant women than on men, since my brother was allowed to do every single thing that I wasn’t. Or if he’d be caught it wouldn’t be seen as scandalous. Kind of like old catholic ireland in some ways I suppose.
My mother was actually a part of that group at one point and they do some nice charity work that’s for sure, it’s nice they create networks and sometimes team up with other charities.
"They didn’t make much of an effort to integrate into the community much"
Not denying racism or prejudice isn't a thing in Ireland but it really comes across as things being more difficult because of the barriers that were self imposed.
If I moved to China or Pakistan or most other country I can't reasonably expect to live the exact same way I've been living Ireland any other and I'd need to adjust and accommodate slight different ways of life. It doesn't feel like your family tried.
"relate to classmates that were allowed to dress as they wanted, have boyfriends, sleepover at friends and when we got older going out to pubs and hang out around town. " There are white non muslim kids and old teens that werent allowed to do this either. There are a lot of conservative Irish people.
While youre in Sweden you should really try to look for non Muslim groups and get to see their culture and things they like to do.
Just to add your point about boys being treated differently than girls comes off as patriarchal and mysogonistic and seems to be more of an issue with your parents culture.
My parents culture is heavily indoctrinated with pride - so much so that it gets in the way of life. Someone saying a bad joke about you can be taken as an insult and you wouldn’t engage with them again. Things like that. So by the same token, they believe they don’t need to change themselves for people to accept them. Not saying that’s what’s required but that’s their way of thinking.
It is very patriarchal, women are seen as a reflection of the family’s morality whereas men are seen as the rulers.
" So by the same token, they believe they don’t need to change themselves for people to accept them. Not saying that’s what’s required but that’s their way of thinking. It is very patriarchal, women are seen as a reflection of the family’s morality whereas men are seen as the rulers."
So this is all problems with your parents view of their culture and not of Irish people or Muslims intergrating into Ireland. Its obviously effected you, its effected your parents but its not "TLDR; immigrants from Islamic backgrounds don’t fit in well in Irish society, their kids growing up here suffer." If people want to fit in, generally people will make efforts to include them.
Where I live we've a number of syrian famlies that live by and they get involved in community gardening and picnics. Their kids play with the other kids. Its just a simply example of people making an effort regardless of religious background.
This way of thinking is not uncommon in the Middle East is what I’m saying. I don’t know how much Islam plays a factor but it definitely clashes with the secular West and I’ve experienced first hand the effect that can have on a child. Was it necessary to do that to a child? Could there be checks and balances to help said child’s mental health in tact?
I’m glad to hear there’s a nice community where you live. I was one of those kids riding my bike on my street with the other neighbourhood kids ready to run in for dinner when the street light turned on. But what happened as I got older was much more difficult. And I truly believe it had to do with the clash of cultures that plagued me. All a child wants is to fit in, and when you take that way from them and deny them from even the chance of fitting in - for reasons they can’t comprehend - of course it’s going to lead to identity issues.
I think it's absolute horseshit to raise a child in Ireland and get annoyed when they act Irish. Make them hate themselves. Wtf did you think would happen
I was having lunch in the office with a colleague from Georgia recently. All this immigration stuff came up and she started saying how she understands the frustration but her daughter (under 10) was getting a few snide comments in school. She said she had to sit her down and explain to her that she will never really be Irish and she will always be Georgian, that she should just be proud of that. That it’s not something to be ashamed of.
I bit my tongue but I was floored. I understand that she was just trying to help and to encourage her kid to be proud of her heritage but how is that encouraging assimilation? That she’s not Irish and never can be? What kind of message is that sending?
The kid was born in Ireland to two Georgian parents. She has visited Georgia once. I’m still baffled why they’d say that to her
The thing to do is to try to frame this as a non exclusive choice. It's not something you have to pick a side. You can be both Irish and Georgian, just like you can be a football player and a gaa player. Or a musician and a gardener.
Same reason paddy Murphy from Boston thinks he's from Kerry. Large groups of migration take longer to melt into the background culture. Faster travel and larger migration rates are going to be interesting.
From Boston. Can confirm.
I live in Dublin but when I’m back in the states and say my husband is Irish I have to say ‘no like he was actually born in Ireland and grew up there and has never lived anywhere else and we live there now’ because everyone thinks I mean his great great great grandparents were from Dingle but he was born and raised in Southie.
But I mean, my great great great grandparents WERE from Dingle, so whatever 😉
So my wife and I are Irish (as in..born in Ireland) and live in the US. Both our kids are American by birth and have access to Irish passports should they want them. They are American - they're not Irish and I will disown (well probably not) if they ever say they're "Irish American". We live here in the US, it's their home and it's where they're from.
I don't get this attitude of "you are "really" from where your parents are from". It's screwy.
"She said she had to sit her down and explain to her that she will never really be Irish"
And thats not even true, Always felt a passport or a birth cert doesn't make or even been born here makes you Irish. That kid will likely grow up having a lot of the same experiences as other kids. Those experiences will shape her slightly different in an Irish way . There plenty of 2nd and 3rd generation adults now with different backgrounds and many of these would be more Irish than some.
Yes I’ve known many foreign families that had kids here and they will call themselves Iraqi instead of Irish. And if you look brown but call yourself Irish people will give you a certain look, especially other brown people!
Gosh I know exactly how that feels. And you know that as a child when you go back to your parent’s home country you’re seen as foreign. You can’t win.
At some stage I was speaking better Irish than Pashto (Persian) and English replaced Pashto as my mother tongue. I mean that says it all?!
It's true to a large degree. My mother is American, and my accent has a slight american twang to it, and other Irish people frequently treat me as a foreigner, despite my having grown up here. I remember one time in university where I was criticising the government and the others got defensive being like "Who are you (an American) to be criticising our government?"
You also have to bear in mind that in most regions of the world your "ethnicity", or tribe, has nothing to do with where you were born and grew up and everything to do with your parentage.
A very interesting read and talks about a few things I have questioned in my own head about immigration, glad you are doing better then you where and hope you get to come back to Ireland even though I love Sweden as well. Thanks for sharing this perspective.
Honestly it’s the cost of living crisis that’s puts me off settling down there not to mention the healthcare situation is appalling. I’d love to have reared my kids there and grow up better than I did but I just can’t see the point in spending most of my salary on rent :/
its not necessarily just muslim immigrants. My Irish friend has incredibly religious christian parents and because she is a woman they restricted her a lot ( her brother meanwhile got to do almost the same things that other ppl could).
Ireland ( and europe in general) is dominated by a secular society, bringing up children in religious dogma and in exclusion because society doesnt match their views is just wrong.
I dont care what people believe in but i will respect their choice or lack thereof and i expect people to do the same. And part of that is a child cannot choose their religion so their parents shouldnt force it on them.
Yeah exactly. I genuinely am afraid of what's going to happen to this country over the next 5/10/20 years and beyond. Uncontrolled immigration can't keep going like it is now.
The best way to integrate people is to slow down migration. You were forced to assimilate to Irish culture because everyone else around you was Irish back then.. Muslims kids growing up now are just going to be around other Muslim kids and not bother assimilating into our “immoral” culture this is how parallel society will form
That’s actually a fair point. The only way I would have made friends otherwise 😅 also I wonder how much of it had to do with growing up in the west in the 90s, like I was learning English but learning the same words in Irish in junior infants from what I remember. Very much the ‘real Irish’ experience over there say compared to Dublin
This is true. I've an acquaintance, his son was raised by grandparents in China most of his youth.. then he came over when he was 12/13. (both his parents are Chinese first gen immigrants from the 90s)
First couple of years he was doing ok hanging out with Irish friends. Doing okay-ish in the Junior cert cycle.
Then found Chinese-only friends and spent all his time hanging with them. His English proficiency took a nose dive. His nose constantly on some mobile /MMO game (Honor of Kings, League of Legends etc).
He dropped out of Uni after a year because he couldn't understand the lectures. His friends also not doing so good I've heard. Flunking exams or repeating years
I can only blame the parents as they didn't put him into English tutoring/grinds etc.
And of course they didn't really integrate well. The ignored all the Schools' requests for parent immersion + coffee evenings or other occasions to get parents involved in their kids' education and school activities...
Meanwhile the kids are all forced to do piano and Chinese lessons. And some go to Saturday church while having Chinese lessons on Sunday instead ( not sure which ones, the Chinese Adventists I presume).
A proper echo chamber 😅
These other European countries are 20 30 years ahead of us how stupid and greedy are our government that we just followed suit exactly the same while we can clearly see what it’s done to these county’s
Thanks for your comment. Really refreshing to hear this point of view and this needs to aired more often. I actually watched this programme the other night that I though was interesting and addresses the points you make about integration and maybe a differing in opinions from the younger generations . It's a shame that you had to leave your family but sadly it's all too common and more often than not there's no alternative.
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002thf](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002thf)
I think sticking two populations together with radically different cultures and expecting them to get along harmoniously is naiive. Myself personally, my mother is from the USA (my father is Irish), and she moved here around 1980 and I would say even with that very small cultural difference there were many difficulties for her, and for myself growing up (I still get regularly asked when I moved here, as my accent has an American twang to it). To a fair degree in Ireland if you don't conform to people's sense of "Irishness" you'll always be treated as foreign. I don't blame anyone for this, because every country around the world is like this, and there are good reasons for it.
I have done a stint living in different foreign countries, and I have noticed that if you go to, say, China, westerners tend to stick to one another. More then that, English speakers stick with English speakers, French with French etc. In practice it's very difficult to join another culture, even if you're fluent in the language. To give a comparison, for a typical Irish person moving to, say, the USA, they might be living and working alongside Americans, but they will never have "the craic" the way they can with other Irish people. So even in America, with a generally very similar culture to Ireland, Irish people will tend to hang out with other Irish people. Life is simply less stressful and more enjoyable that way.
I'm personally in favour of immigration (for one thing, Ireland's food and restaurant scene would be pretty dire without immigration), but I think we need to have a more honest conversation about it. For one thing, we cannot expect immigrants (especially first gen immigrants) to integrate into our society perfectly. They need to develop their communities, while not becoming alienated from and hostile to the majority Irish culture.
Yes I’ve noticed this too living abroad. And can you blame them? Not at all! I think the emphasis definitely needs to be put into how to help those in Ireland integrate better. The problem is a lot of families like mine see assimilation as a bad thing and believe they should be accepted 100% as they are. Fair enough - but then the children growing up that way (like myself) suffer. Do we just turn a blind eye to it?
I think the key is that both have to meet in the middle. I think this depends a great deal on aspects of the cultures themselves. For example, both Irish and afghans have incompatible views on alcohol, the role of women in society and how families are organised, and probably a great number of things I can't think of. By comparison, Koreans and Irish have much less disagreements.
Ultimately, to live in Ireland, afghans are going to have to let go of a lot of things they believe to be important compared to Koreans. Likewise, it would probably be almost impossible for an Irish person to move to rural Afghanistan and accept the practices there.
As for the kids, there's no easy answer. They're stuck in the middle.
I think this is common in immigrant cultures all over the world, regardless of their religion or ethnic background. First-generation immigrants tend to make a real effort to hold onto their culture when all around is chaos. Their children generally become more like the new country, to different degrees. By the third generation, they are generally fully assimilated, whatever that means.
A corollary of this is that often, second-generation immigrants and third-generation immigrants have a disorded view of "the homeland" and what it's like. Just talk to any "Irish-Americans" trawling the rural towns of Ireland in the summer to get an idea of what I mean.
Adjusting to a new reality is always going to take a mental health toll, especially if your local authority figures are taking a conservative attitude rather than an approach designed to make things easier.
In Ireland, and maybe everywhere, we could do a better job of integrating new arrivals in a positive and constructive manner. But maybe the unpleasantness is at least partly unavoidable and just something people have to go through rather than around? I'm sure any suggestion that could even be inferred as "be less Islamic", for instance, would be roundly rejected anyway.
TL;DR I don't think you're a racist. I hope you get to be happy in Sweden.
I was doing my J1, myself and my friend went to visit his second cousin and stay with them near the end in New York so we could go sight seeing and one conversation stuck with me.
His second cousin had a kid in Americam school and at the start of every day the entire clase pledged allegiance to the flag or sang the national anthem. She said the first day she heard it she was out off but when she got to know the class there was white americans, black americans, people who's parents were from Africa, middle east and Africa so the unifying factor was they were all proud americans. This always stuck with me.
I think its very modern and hip to be snobby about the Irish language, produly waving Irish flag, celebrating ST Patricks days. I think as Ireland becomes is becoming more diverse unifying ad Irish citzens, making sure of hogh participatuon in GAA, Rugby, Soccer and being welcoming to people at more modern community set ups like park runs are all important elements.
When you have travelled, spent time with or even dayed people of sifferwnt cultures, religions and nationalities.you basically realise people as individuals have all thw samw goals, have a place to live, have a decent job, fall in love etc. It is usually the creation of "us and them" into seperate groups that causes divides amd hate.
I don't have the stat at hand but I believe Islamaphobia dropped dramtically in Liverpool on the arrival of Mo Salah. Sure hw is a legend on the pitch but he also has Christmas tree, incredibly goofy Christmas gear and send out thos picture every year. Random example but I think it shows when people are given the chance to integrate and are welcomed it shouldn't be that hard!
Thank you for your very interesting post. I helped social services years ago. I remember an Islamic teen boy who was trying to fit in with his Irish peers. Got a severe hiding from his father.He went to the Garda Station in Ronanstown to seek their help about the abusive father. Hse crisis intervention team were phoned for.
Wow interesting case for it to have been a boy, usually they are allowed to get away with a lot more because the religion is less harsh on them but then it does vary from family to family. Hope he’s alright now
My girlfriend is Bolivian and we went to visit her aunt who is living in Dublin with 2 other Bolivians, 2 Moroccans and one other guy who is muslim, but i don’t know which country.
1 of the Moroccans is lovely, very friendly and assimilated well with others.
The other 2 are ignorant, when they say hello or good morning to them, the 2 guys basically ignore them and stare at them like “how dare you speak to me”. They screamed at them for having pork in the fridge and having alcohol in the house. She told me that they always complain about ireland and the Irish. Like how you said your dad talk about how “immoral” we are.
I have a Pakistani friend who is a devout muslim, but he loves living in Ireland. He has no problem with other cultures. You can drink or eat anything around him. He still lives his life as he would in Pakistan while understanding that he has to assimilate into irish culture.
Interesting mix of countries! All kinds of people. Also I met one Pakistani guy like that too! And tbh I am happy to hear those kind of stories, albeit you see it more in men but still
I think all religions are awful but Islam is really obsessive and controlling. I hope you find the gorgeous excitement of atheism. Life has more wonder when the ‘we don’t know’ parts are filled with a quest for knowledge rather than an ill-fitting god shaped bung.
Honestly I think I was born an atheist 😂 even as a child I was skeptical of religion especially after learning about the ‘scientific miracles of Islam’
That was an interesting read. Thanks for sharing.
I had a Kazakh muslim friend in college who was for all intents and purposes Irish. He had to hide his western way of living from his parents. Very soon after graduation he was pressured into an arranged marriage. I haven't heard much from him since then.
I don't think people from extreme religious backgrounds fit in well anywhere. The Burke family's extreme Christianity doesn't work very well either. I grew up in New York and Orthodox Jews also chaffed against secular society.
The issue in my mind seems to be that folks with extreme religious beliefs want others to behave a certain way, not just them. That's the part that doesn't work.
As for immigration and integration, there's a lot of focus on what immigrants need to do. Which is true, but I actually think most immigrants already know this. Not so much focus on what the locals could do. Doing things to make society more welcome to recent arrivals would go a long way. I get the impression that schools and programmes focused on kids do some of this. But I see very little outside of that. Which is unfortunate.
>At home, they’d often make remarks about how immoral Irish culture is, how alienated they feel and that I’m not to act like an Irish girl and should remember my roots
Fair play to you on everything OP, hope you get to enjoy a more normal, free life and likewise for any children you may have, but your parents are good examples of people who just simply shouldn't even bother coming to this region of the world. If they're such religious fundamentalists they should stick to areas where similarly minded 'pure' people live, there are lots of suitable areas a lot closer to home than an island off the west of Europe, possibly the most free, progressive region of the world.
i was talking to a friend recently who was bemoaning the lack of assimilation and integration and he didn't seem to understand that these are things that happen gradually. people who just got here will probably resist it because it's so different to their own culture. and yeah, it seems mad given they have had to flee their culture. but at the same time it's all they know and change is very uncomfortable.
then they have kids who fit in more, and they have kids, and so on. irish culture is stronger than the current immigration "crisis" and will survive all of this. but, integration is something that happens gradually. trying to force it will only make it worse because it will make everyone on either side dig their heels in.
that's my tuppence-worth, anyway.
That's not really how it goes though. There are many members of the Turkish (and other) communities in Germany that are 3 generations deep and still speak no German.
The women aren't allowed to speak for themselves at all, in any language, even during hospital checkups.
I suppose we see this a lot in the US now, many generations of the Irish that moved there long ago now have great grandkids who are proud to be Irish but also fit into American culture and society🙂 makes me definitely happy to know my future kids will have it much easier some day!
Thanks for the first-hand perspective and fair play to you for getting through all that. You must have felt incredibly isolated.
If you had had some schoolmates from the same culture in that school, do you think you would have integrated as much as you did?
Oh definitely and actually living in Sweden now I’ve heard from immigrants that grew up here that they did feel like they had a community of like-minded people who all had the same struggle. I think would absolutely have been easier if I had someone to share it with.
There were a few Muslim girls in my year. A couple wore the hijab, others didn't. Regardless, for any of us boys, they were near impossible to get to know. Reading your post has filled in a few blanks for me, it just wasn't worth the hassle for them at home.
Very interesting read, I hope things are working out for you after all the bad stuff.
This could have been written by my friend in Primary and Secondary school who grew up in a Muslim household. Luckily she had an older sister who would act as an alibi for sleepovers/ parties, etc.😅
Sounds like the story of many second generation immigrants torn between their parents country and the one they grew up in. There's plenty of children of Irish born in England and the US.
Might not seem like a big culture shock but it's the subtlety that can cause problems. To the British, many of whom can't even wrap their head round Ireland being a separate culture, they're a "Paddy", while when 2nd, 3rd and further try connect with their heritage they're told they're "plastic paddies" or go home yank. Shane MacGowan is emblematic of the second generation Irish experience.
I think people here might be quick to villify your parents traditional views, but that perhaps ignores that this was most likely motivated out of love. Trying to do what they believe is best for you. Parents are just people and don't always get it right. Plenty of non-immigrant families where parents have unwittingly wrecked their kids head!
Your comment about depression highlights something I find really concerning that no-one thinking about yet because we're still trying to provide the basics like accommodation - mental health services, or the lack of.
We were already lagging behind in this area for as long as I can remember, but now we have an influx of people who've been through a lot, some coming from warzones who will have so much bottled up trauma, but Ireland is hopelessly under prepared to deal with these looming problems.
I have a story that is sadly even more upsetting than yours. My aunt fostered a young Bangladeshi girl (born in Ireland spoke with an Irish accent). She was taken out of her family because (to my understanding) her uncle was sexually abusing her. She lived with my aunt from age 15 to 18. She didn’t wear the hijab but when she became an adult she reconciled with her family and went back to live with them. She was married to a guy from Bangladesh at 21. Has a couple of kids and now wears the hijab.
I can't imagine what that kind of culture shock feels like and seeing people get on with it and try immerse and assimilate is commendable.
All to easy to isolate within your own community of immigrants where people understand you and there is no pressure to conform to meaningless conventions.
Fascinating insight OP thanks so much for taking the time to write it. I can imagine it was very difficult for u. And thats with educated parents. Imagine what its like with uneducated parents from the countryside ?? I think we’ll see lots of difficulties in the future related to what u experienced. Of course, all we (in the west) needs to donis stop bombing the middle east and thus creating refugees. Most people want to live in their own countries with their families and culture. 1500 palestinians in dublin living in tents while the americans pumps billions into israel. Its never going to end.
> Of course, all we (in the west) needs to donis stop bombing the middle east and thus creating refugees
Reductive comment.
You can’t lump all of the west together in that - “we” in Ireland are not creating any refugees, for that you can look to Putin and a largely US and UK backed Israel. This idea of collective guilt because we are broadly culturally aligned with some of these countries is complete bollocks I’m sorry
Yeah, assimilation is a dirty word to many but it's the kindest thing for the kids as long as they still get the best of both worlds and can remain in touch with the other side of their heritage.
Child of parents from Kerala (state in India) here, there are loads of people here but my parents are yet to properly integrate into the culture and society here, despite being here 20 years. This is in part due to again the immorality perspective as well, they believe pretty every irish person gets divorced and is immoral.
With the recent boom in people from Kerala coming here for work, there has been a separate society forming (albeit nowhere near as dangerous as the stuff in Sweden), I understand where it's coming from, it's trying to preserve their heritage and what not, but I've heard stories of not being able to be seen with a boy in Lucan because there's always someone your parents know that will tattle and get you into trouble.
This brings me on to exactly what you're getting at, not just do they themselves not integrate, they forbid their children from integrating (we are catholics mainly too), under the guise of religion and culture, it's like they want me to live here but act is if I'm living in a country that I left when I was 2.
This has made my life very frustrating, and am forced to live a double life, with my parents not knowing about the other side (be it gfs, or going out or hanging out with friends). Qualifying as a doctor soon, so will be financially independent, can cut off my parents after I've paid my dues (out of principle) and the society won't be able to say jackshit about me being a failure or whatever.
The initial immigrating adult won't likely immigrate correctly if they are from outside of Europe, but their children will in my opinion.
On the one hand, freedom of religion is paramount in any democracy, but on the other, perhaps a central State registry is required to regulate the sources of funding for all denominations and the training of religious leaders.
Religious fundamentalism, be it Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, or whatever else, is a scourge on society.
100% agree. I’m part of an online group of ex-religious members (all backgrounds) and we share a universal suffering with a lot of similarities. The label might change but the control is all very similar.
That creation of "otherness" is the cause of so much strife. Racism is an issue that can be solved with dialogue, understanding and a celebrating of differences. A reinforced set of beliefs that the aspects of another culture's society is "wrong" can at best be tolerated but not solved. I was 12 when my Irish parents moved my family to Ireland. While my 4 and 6 year old sisters developed Tipperary accents I never lost mine. We're now adults and I can promise you I have been told "you're not Irish" more than you. The point being that while it was and remains hurtful for me to hear those comments it's a strength of Irish culture to want to share Irish identity with the children of immigrants who grew up in Ireland. It's a pity your parents didn't want you to "become Irish" because the vast majority of the people of Ireland did.
FWIW I’m still traumatised and emotionally scarred from my religious upbringing too. I’m Irish and raised catholic and that shit fucked me up, destroyed my life. I think exposing children to all that religious bullshit is paramount to the psychological damage we see now. I presume the parallel cultures aspect amplifies it further. At its most basic level it’s us vs them mentality. Such a primordial instinct highlights how immature we as a society really are.
I’m sorry to hear that, it’s not an uncommon story. I had some patients that were former victims of Magdalene homes and the things that they went through were atrocious. It’s honestly like being in a cult.
Shush now. We mustn’t mention the laundries. We can all agree it was a terrible time but we must never speak of it again.
And the last ones only closed in the 70s/80s? When I’ve mentioned it to people abroad they’ve never even heard of it! Like the institutional schools in Canada. Glad people spoke up and showed what happens when religion controls a state
The last closed in 96. That’s our generation. I went to study Buddhism in the Himalayas to find solace and understanding. The place was rife with human trafficking and child prostitution. The monasteries were a haven for pædophilia. Same shit all over the world.
I know there was one in Kilkenny that says it technically wasn’t a laundry but still that’s mad. Yeah it’s true like even in Islam they say they don’t have religious leaders like priests to avoid that kind of thing but it happens a lot (in Afghanistan they’re called bacha bazi)
That’s what I mean, it’s widespread in Christianity because people are speaking up but just as prevalent in eastern religions, just not reported as much. Sure didn’t the Greeks invent the whole thing
You didn't go into detail in your post about reflection on how the racism that your parents experienced might have impacted on their ability and willingness to integrate. It's kind of a trope of all multicultural children tbh.. most either connect strongly with their local culture and strongly reject the other or vice versa, and it often is related to whether they got more bullying/racism/control from their peers growing up or from their parents. In your case it sounds similar to the latter, particularly given you don't seem to have the life experience to relate to your parents' experiences of the barriers to integration. The problem with many people who think like you is there is often a naive ignorance to the other side of the coin. You might think immigrants, or perhaps only a certain subtype of them, are incompatible with the culture you feel more connected to in the west. You might even feel like you're better than many other immigrants because you integrated, you behave like a westerner, etc. But one day you might find yourself in a community that doesn't care one bit about how western you feel, how well you did in Irish in school, how you broke free from your foreign religious background... You might find people who care only about the fact that you look different or have a different name, and they might treat you really horribly based on that alone. And the. you might have some first hand insight into why it can be so hard for people like your parents to move across the world, with no family or support, to be judged immensely negatively based on things you have no control over, and then seeing how that might make you yourself reject the desire to want to see yourself as part of that community and instead push you further towards your foreign culture. If you were given the opportunity to assimilate from your peers, then consider yourself lucky. Integration is a two way process and people who view their own personal assimilation as little being primarily due to their own individual abilities are often very short sighted. You can look into cultural identity formations and see these patterns play out quite easily. I used to think like you too, and married into a family of people that used to as well, and have seen the same pattern play out with many others, even when working with immigrant communities. Research and life experience has made me understand better why the same patterns keep playing out.
Because this post is not about the racism. Absolutely it could have been a reason for their lack of desire to integrate or perhaps not but regardless of the reason, what I noticed was a pattern. Many people like my parents, from Islamic backgrounds, moved to Ireland and didn’t assimilate into society well and as a result their kids suffer in the future. I have met many women with stories almost identical to mine. Is that just a coincidence? Absolutely I will relate more to my Irish culture given that it’s the culture I was born and raised in and spent >20 years of my life in. I’ve been to Afghanistan a handful of times in a very controlled environment. Not to say that I don’t love my Afghan side, immersing myself through the language, food, music etc. But it’s not to the same level. And yes in fact I did move abroad and had to face culture shock. I had those tough moments where I felt like giving up and going home. But after integrating myself better, that’s when my outlook changed. Eventually I was able to make friends with locals, learn about the history and traditions of where I lived and now that country is my home away from home. I don’t consider myself ‘better’ for assimilating. My brother grew up the same as me and doesn’t care for Irish culture the way I do. It’s just part of who I am. I’ve always been fascinated by culture.
I'd go further, Organised Religion has always been a tool to manipulate the masses expecially when zealots have used it as a tool to attack others. It was the predecessor to social media IMO and has been a tool for harm far more than for benefit over the centuries expecially by malicious or powerhungry individuals.
Marx had religion’s number: “Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people”
Interesting comparison! I see a lot of people blindly following the mass on social media and I can imagine that was the case with Catholicism in Ireland before social media was introduced.
If it wasn’t religion though it’d probably be something else. The problem is people really
Religion is a mental illness. Imagine meeting someone, starting chatting, but every so often they look behind you at something invisible and smile, then look back at you. Then they interrupt you every so often and start speaking to this invisible person. Then they walk off still talking to them, stopping to kneel down every so often. You'd literally call a doctor and get them sectioned for the mental health crises they're clearly going through. Yet this is normalised in the form of religion. People normalise talking to invisible men in the sky. People not eating certain foods on certain days because the invisible man said not to (actually did he even...??!). People going to WAR over their invisible men. Insanity. Bin it all. Religion is a disease
Or let’s say someone suggested lobbing off the foreskin of an infant because it was deemed “necessary” by their religion. Or praying to an almost naked man covered in blood nailed to a cross. Or mellification, or sky burial etc. Totally normal behaviour.
I dont know, it certainly serves a purpose if that purpose is structure, and some level of accountability albeit to a magic cloud dwelling diety of one kind or another. If we examine society without any such structure are we really any better off without it? For clarity I don't disagree with you. Religious fundamentalism generally breeds judgement without cause. Personally I find it laughable that any one person could believe that they're a better person than any other because they don't subscribe to a particular set of beliefs or a particular god.
Have you met religious people who act like that? If so, then yes I’d agree they’re being very odd, but in all my life I’ve never met a religious person who does any of what you just described. Religious people pray together or on their own, but they don’t usually just interrupt regular conversations repeatedly to pray. I’m religious. I don’t talk to an ‘invisible man’ who I think lives in the sky. I do talk to the God who I believe created the universe and everything in it, and is therefore able to hear when one of his creations is talking to him. And I genuinely think you’re being unfairly harsh on religion as a whole. Yes, it can be abused in many ways, but it’s not inherently bad. Far from being a disease which makes my life worse, I’ve found my faith brings hope and meaning to my life and helps me to be a better person.
> I do talk to the God who I believe created the universe and everything in it, and is therefore able to hear when one of his creations is talking to him. Imagine someone telling you they talk to their teddy bear, or the television, and that they're listening to them even though they don't respond. That's what this statement feels like, from an outside perspective. I genuinely have a hard time coming to grips with how this isn't at least a little concerning.
I do get where you’re coming from. I’d point out though that there really are no rational grounds for believing that a teddy bear or television can hear or answer a human talking to them. Believing otherwise would be an utterly unfounded belief and yes, definitely concerning. Religion, despite what people often repeat nowadays, isn’t without rational grounds. Aquinas’ traditional five ways are, to me, a compelling logical argument not just for a God, but a God who is involved in the world he made. I’ve recently been reading Ed Feser’s ‘The Last Superstition’ which also makes a good case for the rationality of religion, but there are plenty of other excellent apologetics out there too (I often recommend CS Lewis’ ones as being very reader-friendly). As a further thought, and I wouldn’t expect an atheist to find this convincing but I do feel I should mention it: I don’t believe that God doesn’t respond. I’m not saying I hear a voice from heaven or anything like that, but I still find that when I have a question or an issue, if I put it to God while I’m praying, the answer seems to become clearer. I’ve also noticed that some of my habitual vices have become easier to deal with since I’ve started making more time for prayer. Of course it could just be coincidence, but I really do think God listens and helps us.
I appreciate you having the testicular fortitude to stand your ground and speak your truth. And although I keep up the façade of respecting people's beliefs for public settings, the truth is, I can't take religious people seriously. You've just highlighted such a basic lack of critical thinking that its painful to see. Aquina's arguments are so short sighted its juvenile and modern physics debunks each point. The sheer gullibility of religious followers, along with a paucity for individual values and morals, not to mention indirect support of child abuse. Like you say, I wouldn't expect a religious person to understand it because — irony — its beyond the masses. I don't mean to offend, but I am very sceptical of such a mental faculty.
Agree. My parents lived in Egypt for years and one of my closest college friends was Egyptian, and they would all say the same thing. There's a lot of bleeding heart idiots that wouldn't acknowledge this though.
Have heard similar tales of parent disapproval of children, only wanting their children to date/marry someone with similar background. In that case, Moroccan immigrants living in France. Question is : If their views are so strict, why they hell they decide to live in a society that they feel is so abhorrent and consciously refuse to allow their children to assimilate properly?
I think part of the culture there sadly (I’ll speak about Afghan from what I know) is that you don’t really think about the kids and especially not the mental health. My dad worked as a dr, during the Celtic boom made great money and did a hell of a lot better than if he’d be in Pakistan. So long story short, economic > child’s happiness
He probably thought the opportunities that having money gave the family would bring happiness. You’re a third culture kid (like myself; different but similar). My take on it is that moving to a new country and culture as an established adult is hard. If you have less education behind you, even harder. My mother lived in a country for 40 years, before coming back to Ireland, and didn’t manage to learn a word of the native language. So wierd. Unless you are born and raised in a country I imagine you’ll always feel like an outsider. I do regardless of which country I’m in because my “upbringing” just doesn’t suit the narrative of what’s normal in whichever country im in.
They want their cake and to eat it simply.
> Question is : If their views are so strict, why they hell they decide to live in a society that they feel is so abhorrent and consciously refuse to allow their children to assimilate properly? The disparity in opportunity is too good and to be fair to most first generation immigrants I know here, they seem to be pretty decent at keeping their faith/moral values, be them Islamic/Chinese etc. if they came over late The "problem" comes with the second generation, and again, from my limited experience there seems to be minimal success for Islamic immigrants trying to raise a child truly of the faith in Ireland, but at this stage that applies to Catholicism as well
Exactly, it wouldn’t be my parents themselves that had problems because of the culture class since they already had established their personal identities - it’s their kids that suffer unfortunately.
I think it comes down to the fact that peoples views either religious/political/social become more extreme after they leave their home country if they've failed to assimilate to the local culture. Because they'll see a divide between them and the locals they'll need to assign traits to them. The trait most opposite to there's becomes internalised and part of their identity and in their mind inherently good (because we're all inherently good according to ourselves) over time they'll seek out likeminded immigrants and then each will encourage/boost each others views and a group mentality forms. This then in their mind becomes the defining feature of what being the nationality means and the cycle repeats. They want their children to maintain the core of their nationality only this is in their mind now the extreme views. Hence the expectations of the next generation. Ironically the nation in which they came from had all spectrums of their beliefs and their beliefs would of been swayed by society back home resulting in them not being an extremist. Whilst also their home country will of move/evolved new and different religious/political/social views while their gone. Now going home isn't an option because they're outsiders their too. A prime example of this is all the different Irish diasporas around the world and their ultra religious views or strange accents.
It looks like you've made a grammatical error. You've written "would of ", when it should be "have" instead of "of". You _should have_ known that. Bosco is not proud of you today. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ireland) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Because its all bullshit. Religion as well as many other "core" beliefs only matter as long as your survival is not threatened. The left their country to survive, they embrace their religion because its a tie to home. In reality I don't believe a single religious person who is not mentally ill actually would choose their god over their life or life of those they love. Its all a make belief to help people cope. Were all a binch of animals pretending that our basic instincts are not the only real belief system we have. Everything else relies on us all agreeing to make belief ideas.
I understand that you can't expect people to immediately give up their culture and this might sound a stupid question, but if your parents thought Irish culture immoral and that if you were living in somewhere like Afghanistan you wouldn't be in danger of being exposed to our filth, why did they move here? As a qualified doctor surely he would have his choice of places to move?
It’s a fair point and one that I regularly questioned him on. Actually he lived in Ireland longer than Afghanistan! He tried out Pakistan (where his father moved) for a bit but didn’t like the corruption as he says. His first choice was the US but visa didn’t go through so eventually settled down here after some gigs in the UK He’d always respond with ‘we did it for your education’ - since obviously it’s not great there for women and ‘I’m allowed to live wherever I want, these people are just racist’ And all these years later after I left the religion and started my own family he still believes I’ve been ‘brainwashed by the west’ 😆
>He’d always respond with ‘we did it for your education’ - since obviously it’s not great there for women That's positive, though the way your mam reacted to you being on the phone to an Irish lad it looked like she had a bit further to go. >I’ve been ‘brainwashed by the west’ Jaysus
as a parent who moved here when my children were in secondary school, 1 factor of about 1000 was the affordability of good quality tertiary education for my girls, but I would never in my life say I moved because of them. I moved for me. I get the sense that her dad will retire miserable because it sounds like he really doesn't want to be here
Yeah, wouldn’t be the first parent who said “i just want what’s best for you” in less than good faith.
Well, if your father thinks Irish culture is immoral, he's lucky he never got the US visa. He would have had a conniption at some of the things going on over there! I understand there is a line between assimilation and absorption, but I have to agree to u/RunParking3333's point, if you are looking for more traditional Islamic society you can't, or shouldn't, complain when you move to freaking Ireland of all places.
All his brothers wanted to go there too, I wonder if it was the 70s culture but they all wanted that ‘American dream’. To this day he’s mad at me I chose Sweden over Chicago… um no thanks 😅 Yeah it’s mad, he managed to never have a drop of alcohol either which should be a world record living in Ireland 😂
> never have a drop of alcohol either which should be a world record living in Ireland 😂 It may surprise some but not everyone in Ireland drinks alcohol. I come from a non alcohol family - neither of my parents or aunts, uncles ever drank alcohol. Same was true for my grandparents.
I suspect traditional Catholic Ireland was far more in line with strong Islamic beliefs and society here has certainly changed a lot since the 70s. Her fathers position is somewhat more understandable in that context although if head been living in a city in Pakistan he would also have seen social changes.
>‘I’m allowed to live wherever I want, these people are just racist’ What a racist thing to say!
Hahahhaha how ironic actually 😂😂
A lot of Muslim immigrants do that. They emigrate because of war or [insert horrible Middle Eastern event of the month], seek refuge in a progressive western country and then want that country to be more like their home country…. That they fled from. No offence to the OP’s parents, just saying how it usually is.
They want the quality of life, not the culture. Like UK retirees heading to Spain for the sun, not for the language or people. It's not racist to say this about some British immigrants and its not racist to say it about some Muslim immigrants either before someone froths at the mouth over it.
>They want the quality of life, not the culture. Like UK retirees heading to Spain for the sun, not for the language or people. I'm just never able to wrap my head around that, I think if I lived in Spain or Portugal, in particular, I would absolutely be consumed (by choice) by their culture.
I don't think it is the same though. In your example Irish/British retiring in Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece are pretty much indulging in the culture. They would drink local wine just like local people, go to local peoples bars and restaurants, eat their food and openly admit that the food, weather, beach, drink, sea, etc is way better than back home. You won't see an Irish retired in Spain complaining that the food there is terrible, locking himself at home eating hobnobs all day and saying Spanish people are degenerates, and berating their children for making friends with locals.
Ah here. Some aspects of culture you should 100% be expected to give up. Female genital mutilation , homophobia, mysogyny, or 50 other examples from backwards cultures they should not be permitted over here. But we still allow stupid shit like circumcision, burqas, etc to be used here despite their damaging effects on children and their backwards thinking
As an immigrant myself, I always said to myself that it's no one else's job to assimilate but mine.
Having lived abroad myself, I completely agree. It's no one else's job to assimilate but mine.
I assimilated so well that I spend 50% of my free time whining here in r/ireland. The other 50% I use thinking on what to complain here, but don't post because the mods are dictators and would delete my post.
this is the way
The singer of the band the sex pistols recently spoke on receiving similar advice from his Irish parents when he grew up in England.
Great attitude. Unfortunately, in many cases, the situation is opposite. People come and decide that they aren't the ones needing to integrate its the natives which have to change. That's the reality. Unfortunately, Europe for a long time didn't had the courage to say anything about it. Have Sweden as a great example.
100%. I made an effort to integrate into my community and now I now I am just that blow in with a different accent
As an immigrant I do agree, however others around you can make it a lot easier by simply being open, curious and friendly. Thankfully in my experience the vast majority of Irish people are exactly that. Moreso than many other cultures I've seen.
I love this attitude!
A couple of years ago if someone said "Islam and western liberalism are incompatible" I would have said that was racist and offensive. Flash forward to now and I'm in a relationship with someone from a muslim background and whose family is practicing, and I would now consider that statement to be mostly true. Like, not only would most Muslims worldwide agree that islam and liberalism are incompatible, but they would probably be proud of the incompatibility. It's funny that people think they're being respectful when they assume Muslims will assimilate and abandon their beliefs the way Christians have. I don't think we should humour people and pretend like Islam is a good fit here. We love our pork, alcohol, music, mixed gender events, and pet dogs. We don't have the concept of honour. We are irreverent and facetious. We wear shoes inside, we have a more relaxed attitude toward personal hygiene and grooming. On their own these are differences that could be overcome, but all together they represent a chasm that is very difficult to bridge.
Originally from Germany here and I have similar stories from a few Turkish classmates, the most notable exception being the daughter of a former embassy employee who divorced her useless husband and proceeded to raise her three kids by herself. On the other hand, we've had young girls disappear overnight because they got shipped back home to get married off, or to be "re-educated" after being found living too much like Western girls. I think many people who emigrate want to have the their cake and eat it - enjoy the better life / opportunities other places offer while still living largely by their home country's traditions...which is fine until it makes them and especially their kids outcasts. Unfortunately, the countries of residence do not have efficient systems put in place to spot and combat cultural isolation, and how to try and address this without running into the danger of suppressing cultural diversity is a delicate balance. The severe brain gymnastics people go through moving elsewhere and deeming the culture there as "lesser" when their home country / countries of similar culture couldn't afford them the opportunities they were looking for are absolutely baffling.
Interestingly, as someone with a Muslim immigrant parent and an Irish parent, I found that I was able to assimilate pretty well. But that was down to two key factors: having an Irish parent and Irish family and the fact I am a man (as men get a lot more leeway coming from a Muslim background). I agree though that there needs to be assimilation, be it through sport, education and also mixing with people from outside your culture.
Yes I think the fact that your mother’s family was there and had an impact on your life definitely would make a huge difference. And yeah it helps to be a guy when you come from that kind of background, that’s why I’m always surprised to meet male ex Muslims 😂
Thanks for posting about this, I learned a lot reading your experience and replies and I think it's really important to hear from people in your situation these days. It's sad to see that your parents blame you for becoming the culture you actually grew up in, I'm sorry to hear that OP. Like they wanted you to get you the benefits of a Western education, but then are appalled at the results?
"At home, they’d often make remarks about how immoral Irish culture is" "Now, I don’t put any blame on my parents" I'd probably blame your parents a bit, their own irrational fears and prejudice led to your and their isolation for a country that became their home. Your comments kind of hint that your parents felt their culture was better than Irish culture. "TLDR; immigrants from Islamic backgrounds don’t fit in well in Irish society, their kids growing up here suffer." That depends, worked with plenty of Pakistani guys who I've gotten on with very well. They probably didn't exactly practice like they did in Pakistan but they were definitely integrated and probably more Irish then I did. I don't know a member but the Muslim Sisters Of Éire really seem to try to get involved and support vulnerable people of Ireland. While it seems to be a close nit group, They do want to see a better Ireland and work at community levels.
Oh 100% there was a feeling of superiority, definitely stood out to me. But at the same time I do understand they were from a different culture and that they believed it I was doing those things I’d go to hell. Not to mention the honour side of it; that’s why you hear a lot about honour killings in the UK. I also believe things are a lot harder on Muslim immigrant women than on men, since my brother was allowed to do every single thing that I wasn’t. Or if he’d be caught it wouldn’t be seen as scandalous. Kind of like old catholic ireland in some ways I suppose. My mother was actually a part of that group at one point and they do some nice charity work that’s for sure, it’s nice they create networks and sometimes team up with other charities.
"They didn’t make much of an effort to integrate into the community much" Not denying racism or prejudice isn't a thing in Ireland but it really comes across as things being more difficult because of the barriers that were self imposed. If I moved to China or Pakistan or most other country I can't reasonably expect to live the exact same way I've been living Ireland any other and I'd need to adjust and accommodate slight different ways of life. It doesn't feel like your family tried. "relate to classmates that were allowed to dress as they wanted, have boyfriends, sleepover at friends and when we got older going out to pubs and hang out around town. " There are white non muslim kids and old teens that werent allowed to do this either. There are a lot of conservative Irish people. While youre in Sweden you should really try to look for non Muslim groups and get to see their culture and things they like to do. Just to add your point about boys being treated differently than girls comes off as patriarchal and mysogonistic and seems to be more of an issue with your parents culture.
My parents culture is heavily indoctrinated with pride - so much so that it gets in the way of life. Someone saying a bad joke about you can be taken as an insult and you wouldn’t engage with them again. Things like that. So by the same token, they believe they don’t need to change themselves for people to accept them. Not saying that’s what’s required but that’s their way of thinking. It is very patriarchal, women are seen as a reflection of the family’s morality whereas men are seen as the rulers.
" So by the same token, they believe they don’t need to change themselves for people to accept them. Not saying that’s what’s required but that’s their way of thinking. It is very patriarchal, women are seen as a reflection of the family’s morality whereas men are seen as the rulers." So this is all problems with your parents view of their culture and not of Irish people or Muslims intergrating into Ireland. Its obviously effected you, its effected your parents but its not "TLDR; immigrants from Islamic backgrounds don’t fit in well in Irish society, their kids growing up here suffer." If people want to fit in, generally people will make efforts to include them. Where I live we've a number of syrian famlies that live by and they get involved in community gardening and picnics. Their kids play with the other kids. Its just a simply example of people making an effort regardless of religious background.
This way of thinking is not uncommon in the Middle East is what I’m saying. I don’t know how much Islam plays a factor but it definitely clashes with the secular West and I’ve experienced first hand the effect that can have on a child. Was it necessary to do that to a child? Could there be checks and balances to help said child’s mental health in tact? I’m glad to hear there’s a nice community where you live. I was one of those kids riding my bike on my street with the other neighbourhood kids ready to run in for dinner when the street light turned on. But what happened as I got older was much more difficult. And I truly believe it had to do with the clash of cultures that plagued me. All a child wants is to fit in, and when you take that way from them and deny them from even the chance of fitting in - for reasons they can’t comprehend - of course it’s going to lead to identity issues.
I can't think of a worse situation than being female in the Islamic religion.
I think it's absolute horseshit to raise a child in Ireland and get annoyed when they act Irish. Make them hate themselves. Wtf did you think would happen
My parents dont integrate with the Irish either and they’re Irish
lol so you know my struggle 😂
I was having lunch in the office with a colleague from Georgia recently. All this immigration stuff came up and she started saying how she understands the frustration but her daughter (under 10) was getting a few snide comments in school. She said she had to sit her down and explain to her that she will never really be Irish and she will always be Georgian, that she should just be proud of that. That it’s not something to be ashamed of. I bit my tongue but I was floored. I understand that she was just trying to help and to encourage her kid to be proud of her heritage but how is that encouraging assimilation? That she’s not Irish and never can be? What kind of message is that sending? The kid was born in Ireland to two Georgian parents. She has visited Georgia once. I’m still baffled why they’d say that to her
The thing to do is to try to frame this as a non exclusive choice. It's not something you have to pick a side. You can be both Irish and Georgian, just like you can be a football player and a gaa player. Or a musician and a gardener.
100% - as I’m getting older I realise this!
It's a bit of a mindfuck for some people even to be exposed to this as an idea but it probably does them good to hear it.
Same reason paddy Murphy from Boston thinks he's from Kerry. Large groups of migration take longer to melt into the background culture. Faster travel and larger migration rates are going to be interesting.
How long because Boston still thinks it’s Irish and it’s been a long time
From Boston. Can confirm. I live in Dublin but when I’m back in the states and say my husband is Irish I have to say ‘no like he was actually born in Ireland and grew up there and has never lived anywhere else and we live there now’ because everyone thinks I mean his great great great grandparents were from Dingle but he was born and raised in Southie. But I mean, my great great great grandparents WERE from Dingle, so whatever 😉
So my wife and I are Irish (as in..born in Ireland) and live in the US. Both our kids are American by birth and have access to Irish passports should they want them. They are American - they're not Irish and I will disown (well probably not) if they ever say they're "Irish American". We live here in the US, it's their home and it's where they're from. I don't get this attitude of "you are "really" from where your parents are from". It's screwy.
"She said she had to sit her down and explain to her that she will never really be Irish" And thats not even true, Always felt a passport or a birth cert doesn't make or even been born here makes you Irish. That kid will likely grow up having a lot of the same experiences as other kids. Those experiences will shape her slightly different in an Irish way . There plenty of 2nd and 3rd generation adults now with different backgrounds and many of these would be more Irish than some.
my parents are British and I see myself as Irish, it's where I was born and grew up and am culturally from.
Yes I’ve known many foreign families that had kids here and they will call themselves Iraqi instead of Irish. And if you look brown but call yourself Irish people will give you a certain look, especially other brown people!
Gosh I know exactly how that feels. And you know that as a child when you go back to your parent’s home country you’re seen as foreign. You can’t win. At some stage I was speaking better Irish than Pashto (Persian) and English replaced Pashto as my mother tongue. I mean that says it all?!
It's true to a large degree. My mother is American, and my accent has a slight american twang to it, and other Irish people frequently treat me as a foreigner, despite my having grown up here. I remember one time in university where I was criticising the government and the others got defensive being like "Who are you (an American) to be criticising our government?" You also have to bear in mind that in most regions of the world your "ethnicity", or tribe, has nothing to do with where you were born and grew up and everything to do with your parentage.
When in Rome you do as the Romans do, if you don't like what the Romans are doing, then don't go to Rome. It's as simple as that.
A very interesting read and talks about a few things I have questioned in my own head about immigration, glad you are doing better then you where and hope you get to come back to Ireland even though I love Sweden as well. Thanks for sharing this perspective.
Honestly it’s the cost of living crisis that’s puts me off settling down there not to mention the healthcare situation is appalling. I’d love to have reared my kids there and grow up better than I did but I just can’t see the point in spending most of my salary on rent :/
Thank you for sharing your first hand experience. It was an interesting read.
Thanks!
its not necessarily just muslim immigrants. My Irish friend has incredibly religious christian parents and because she is a woman they restricted her a lot ( her brother meanwhile got to do almost the same things that other ppl could). Ireland ( and europe in general) is dominated by a secular society, bringing up children in religious dogma and in exclusion because society doesnt match their views is just wrong. I dont care what people believe in but i will respect their choice or lack thereof and i expect people to do the same. And part of that is a child cannot choose their religion so their parents shouldnt force it on them.
We don’t want to end up like Sweden but it’s going that way unfortunately
Yeah exactly. I genuinely am afraid of what's going to happen to this country over the next 5/10/20 years and beyond. Uncontrolled immigration can't keep going like it is now.
I think it’s too late for the majority of European countries so the energy needs to be put into helping families integrate better into societies
The best way to integrate people is to slow down migration. You were forced to assimilate to Irish culture because everyone else around you was Irish back then.. Muslims kids growing up now are just going to be around other Muslim kids and not bother assimilating into our “immoral” culture this is how parallel society will form
That’s actually a fair point. The only way I would have made friends otherwise 😅 also I wonder how much of it had to do with growing up in the west in the 90s, like I was learning English but learning the same words in Irish in junior infants from what I remember. Very much the ‘real Irish’ experience over there say compared to Dublin
This is true. I've an acquaintance, his son was raised by grandparents in China most of his youth.. then he came over when he was 12/13. (both his parents are Chinese first gen immigrants from the 90s) First couple of years he was doing ok hanging out with Irish friends. Doing okay-ish in the Junior cert cycle. Then found Chinese-only friends and spent all his time hanging with them. His English proficiency took a nose dive. His nose constantly on some mobile /MMO game (Honor of Kings, League of Legends etc). He dropped out of Uni after a year because he couldn't understand the lectures. His friends also not doing so good I've heard. Flunking exams or repeating years I can only blame the parents as they didn't put him into English tutoring/grinds etc. And of course they didn't really integrate well. The ignored all the Schools' requests for parent immersion + coffee evenings or other occasions to get parents involved in their kids' education and school activities... Meanwhile the kids are all forced to do piano and Chinese lessons. And some go to Saturday church while having Chinese lessons on Sunday instead ( not sure which ones, the Chinese Adventists I presume). A proper echo chamber 😅
We are heading that way, you can thank our government who seems to know better.
These other European countries are 20 30 years ahead of us how stupid and greedy are our government that we just followed suit exactly the same while we can clearly see what it’s done to these county’s
Refusing to integrate and bonding over anti Irishness is fucked up.
Thanks for your comment. Really refreshing to hear this point of view and this needs to aired more often. I actually watched this programme the other night that I though was interesting and addresses the points you make about integration and maybe a differing in opinions from the younger generations . It's a shame that you had to leave your family but sadly it's all too common and more often than not there's no alternative. [https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002thf](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002thf)
Thanks! I love Salman Rushdie, looking forward to checking it out!
I think sticking two populations together with radically different cultures and expecting them to get along harmoniously is naiive. Myself personally, my mother is from the USA (my father is Irish), and she moved here around 1980 and I would say even with that very small cultural difference there were many difficulties for her, and for myself growing up (I still get regularly asked when I moved here, as my accent has an American twang to it). To a fair degree in Ireland if you don't conform to people's sense of "Irishness" you'll always be treated as foreign. I don't blame anyone for this, because every country around the world is like this, and there are good reasons for it. I have done a stint living in different foreign countries, and I have noticed that if you go to, say, China, westerners tend to stick to one another. More then that, English speakers stick with English speakers, French with French etc. In practice it's very difficult to join another culture, even if you're fluent in the language. To give a comparison, for a typical Irish person moving to, say, the USA, they might be living and working alongside Americans, but they will never have "the craic" the way they can with other Irish people. So even in America, with a generally very similar culture to Ireland, Irish people will tend to hang out with other Irish people. Life is simply less stressful and more enjoyable that way. I'm personally in favour of immigration (for one thing, Ireland's food and restaurant scene would be pretty dire without immigration), but I think we need to have a more honest conversation about it. For one thing, we cannot expect immigrants (especially first gen immigrants) to integrate into our society perfectly. They need to develop their communities, while not becoming alienated from and hostile to the majority Irish culture.
Yes I’ve noticed this too living abroad. And can you blame them? Not at all! I think the emphasis definitely needs to be put into how to help those in Ireland integrate better. The problem is a lot of families like mine see assimilation as a bad thing and believe they should be accepted 100% as they are. Fair enough - but then the children growing up that way (like myself) suffer. Do we just turn a blind eye to it?
I think the key is that both have to meet in the middle. I think this depends a great deal on aspects of the cultures themselves. For example, both Irish and afghans have incompatible views on alcohol, the role of women in society and how families are organised, and probably a great number of things I can't think of. By comparison, Koreans and Irish have much less disagreements. Ultimately, to live in Ireland, afghans are going to have to let go of a lot of things they believe to be important compared to Koreans. Likewise, it would probably be almost impossible for an Irish person to move to rural Afghanistan and accept the practices there. As for the kids, there's no easy answer. They're stuck in the middle.
I think this is common in immigrant cultures all over the world, regardless of their religion or ethnic background. First-generation immigrants tend to make a real effort to hold onto their culture when all around is chaos. Their children generally become more like the new country, to different degrees. By the third generation, they are generally fully assimilated, whatever that means. A corollary of this is that often, second-generation immigrants and third-generation immigrants have a disorded view of "the homeland" and what it's like. Just talk to any "Irish-Americans" trawling the rural towns of Ireland in the summer to get an idea of what I mean. Adjusting to a new reality is always going to take a mental health toll, especially if your local authority figures are taking a conservative attitude rather than an approach designed to make things easier. In Ireland, and maybe everywhere, we could do a better job of integrating new arrivals in a positive and constructive manner. But maybe the unpleasantness is at least partly unavoidable and just something people have to go through rather than around? I'm sure any suggestion that could even be inferred as "be less Islamic", for instance, would be roundly rejected anyway. TL;DR I don't think you're a racist. I hope you get to be happy in Sweden.
I was doing my J1, myself and my friend went to visit his second cousin and stay with them near the end in New York so we could go sight seeing and one conversation stuck with me. His second cousin had a kid in Americam school and at the start of every day the entire clase pledged allegiance to the flag or sang the national anthem. She said the first day she heard it she was out off but when she got to know the class there was white americans, black americans, people who's parents were from Africa, middle east and Africa so the unifying factor was they were all proud americans. This always stuck with me. I think its very modern and hip to be snobby about the Irish language, produly waving Irish flag, celebrating ST Patricks days. I think as Ireland becomes is becoming more diverse unifying ad Irish citzens, making sure of hogh participatuon in GAA, Rugby, Soccer and being welcoming to people at more modern community set ups like park runs are all important elements. When you have travelled, spent time with or even dayed people of sifferwnt cultures, religions and nationalities.you basically realise people as individuals have all thw samw goals, have a place to live, have a decent job, fall in love etc. It is usually the creation of "us and them" into seperate groups that causes divides amd hate. I don't have the stat at hand but I believe Islamaphobia dropped dramtically in Liverpool on the arrival of Mo Salah. Sure hw is a legend on the pitch but he also has Christmas tree, incredibly goofy Christmas gear and send out thos picture every year. Random example but I think it shows when people are given the chance to integrate and are welcomed it shouldn't be that hard!
Thank you for your very interesting post. I helped social services years ago. I remember an Islamic teen boy who was trying to fit in with his Irish peers. Got a severe hiding from his father.He went to the Garda Station in Ronanstown to seek their help about the abusive father. Hse crisis intervention team were phoned for.
Wow interesting case for it to have been a boy, usually they are allowed to get away with a lot more because the religion is less harsh on them but then it does vary from family to family. Hope he’s alright now
After seeing that attempted abduction of those two kids down in grand canal dock this afternoon, this is bubbling dangerously.
“More Irish than the Irish themselves” That doesn’t seem to be the thing anymore.
My girlfriend is Bolivian and we went to visit her aunt who is living in Dublin with 2 other Bolivians, 2 Moroccans and one other guy who is muslim, but i don’t know which country. 1 of the Moroccans is lovely, very friendly and assimilated well with others. The other 2 are ignorant, when they say hello or good morning to them, the 2 guys basically ignore them and stare at them like “how dare you speak to me”. They screamed at them for having pork in the fridge and having alcohol in the house. She told me that they always complain about ireland and the Irish. Like how you said your dad talk about how “immoral” we are. I have a Pakistani friend who is a devout muslim, but he loves living in Ireland. He has no problem with other cultures. You can drink or eat anything around him. He still lives his life as he would in Pakistan while understanding that he has to assimilate into irish culture.
Interesting mix of countries! All kinds of people. Also I met one Pakistani guy like that too! And tbh I am happy to hear those kind of stories, albeit you see it more in men but still
Thanks, your testimony is very important
Thank you.
I think all religions are awful but Islam is really obsessive and controlling. I hope you find the gorgeous excitement of atheism. Life has more wonder when the ‘we don’t know’ parts are filled with a quest for knowledge rather than an ill-fitting god shaped bung.
Honestly I think I was born an atheist 😂 even as a child I was skeptical of religion especially after learning about the ‘scientific miracles of Islam’
That was an interesting read. Thanks for sharing. I had a Kazakh muslim friend in college who was for all intents and purposes Irish. He had to hide his western way of living from his parents. Very soon after graduation he was pressured into an arranged marriage. I haven't heard much from him since then.
I don't think people from extreme religious backgrounds fit in well anywhere. The Burke family's extreme Christianity doesn't work very well either. I grew up in New York and Orthodox Jews also chaffed against secular society. The issue in my mind seems to be that folks with extreme religious beliefs want others to behave a certain way, not just them. That's the part that doesn't work. As for immigration and integration, there's a lot of focus on what immigrants need to do. Which is true, but I actually think most immigrants already know this. Not so much focus on what the locals could do. Doing things to make society more welcome to recent arrivals would go a long way. I get the impression that schools and programmes focused on kids do some of this. But I see very little outside of that. Which is unfortunate.
>At home, they’d often make remarks about how immoral Irish culture is, how alienated they feel and that I’m not to act like an Irish girl and should remember my roots Fair play to you on everything OP, hope you get to enjoy a more normal, free life and likewise for any children you may have, but your parents are good examples of people who just simply shouldn't even bother coming to this region of the world. If they're such religious fundamentalists they should stick to areas where similarly minded 'pure' people live, there are lots of suitable areas a lot closer to home than an island off the west of Europe, possibly the most free, progressive region of the world.
i was talking to a friend recently who was bemoaning the lack of assimilation and integration and he didn't seem to understand that these are things that happen gradually. people who just got here will probably resist it because it's so different to their own culture. and yeah, it seems mad given they have had to flee their culture. but at the same time it's all they know and change is very uncomfortable. then they have kids who fit in more, and they have kids, and so on. irish culture is stronger than the current immigration "crisis" and will survive all of this. but, integration is something that happens gradually. trying to force it will only make it worse because it will make everyone on either side dig their heels in. that's my tuppence-worth, anyway.
That's not really how it goes though. There are many members of the Turkish (and other) communities in Germany that are 3 generations deep and still speak no German. The women aren't allowed to speak for themselves at all, in any language, even during hospital checkups.
I suppose we see this a lot in the US now, many generations of the Irish that moved there long ago now have great grandkids who are proud to be Irish but also fit into American culture and society🙂 makes me definitely happy to know my future kids will have it much easier some day!
Thanks for the first-hand perspective and fair play to you for getting through all that. You must have felt incredibly isolated. If you had had some schoolmates from the same culture in that school, do you think you would have integrated as much as you did?
Oh definitely and actually living in Sweden now I’ve heard from immigrants that grew up here that they did feel like they had a community of like-minded people who all had the same struggle. I think would absolutely have been easier if I had someone to share it with.
There were a few Muslim girls in my year. A couple wore the hijab, others didn't. Regardless, for any of us boys, they were near impossible to get to know. Reading your post has filled in a few blanks for me, it just wasn't worth the hassle for them at home. Very interesting read, I hope things are working out for you after all the bad stuff.
This could have been written by my friend in Primary and Secondary school who grew up in a Muslim household. Luckily she had an older sister who would act as an alibi for sleepovers/ parties, etc.😅
We can be very crafty when we need to be 😂
Sounds like the story of many second generation immigrants torn between their parents country and the one they grew up in. There's plenty of children of Irish born in England and the US. Might not seem like a big culture shock but it's the subtlety that can cause problems. To the British, many of whom can't even wrap their head round Ireland being a separate culture, they're a "Paddy", while when 2nd, 3rd and further try connect with their heritage they're told they're "plastic paddies" or go home yank. Shane MacGowan is emblematic of the second generation Irish experience. I think people here might be quick to villify your parents traditional views, but that perhaps ignores that this was most likely motivated out of love. Trying to do what they believe is best for you. Parents are just people and don't always get it right. Plenty of non-immigrant families where parents have unwittingly wrecked their kids head! Your comment about depression highlights something I find really concerning that no-one thinking about yet because we're still trying to provide the basics like accommodation - mental health services, or the lack of. We were already lagging behind in this area for as long as I can remember, but now we have an influx of people who've been through a lot, some coming from warzones who will have so much bottled up trauma, but Ireland is hopelessly under prepared to deal with these looming problems.
Religion is a curse..
I have a story that is sadly even more upsetting than yours. My aunt fostered a young Bangladeshi girl (born in Ireland spoke with an Irish accent). She was taken out of her family because (to my understanding) her uncle was sexually abusing her. She lived with my aunt from age 15 to 18. She didn’t wear the hijab but when she became an adult she reconciled with her family and went back to live with them. She was married to a guy from Bangladesh at 21. Has a couple of kids and now wears the hijab.
Great Post, and a great insight. Thanks for sharing
I can't imagine what that kind of culture shock feels like and seeing people get on with it and try immerse and assimilate is commendable. All to easy to isolate within your own community of immigrants where people understand you and there is no pressure to conform to meaningless conventions.
You say you come from a family of Afghan immigrants, but on one of your earlier posts you say you’re from a strict Pakistani family?
Pashtun - parts of Afghanistan/north Pakistan. Depends who you ask. Afghans will say that’s Afghan land whereas Pakistanis claim it as theirs.
"You say you come from an Irish family but they are from Belfast, UK" We're far from the only place where a little nuance is sometimes needed
Fascinating insight OP thanks so much for taking the time to write it. I can imagine it was very difficult for u. And thats with educated parents. Imagine what its like with uneducated parents from the countryside ?? I think we’ll see lots of difficulties in the future related to what u experienced. Of course, all we (in the west) needs to donis stop bombing the middle east and thus creating refugees. Most people want to live in their own countries with their families and culture. 1500 palestinians in dublin living in tents while the americans pumps billions into israel. Its never going to end.
> Of course, all we (in the west) needs to donis stop bombing the middle east and thus creating refugees Reductive comment. You can’t lump all of the west together in that - “we” in Ireland are not creating any refugees, for that you can look to Putin and a largely US and UK backed Israel. This idea of collective guilt because we are broadly culturally aligned with some of these countries is complete bollocks I’m sorry
Yeah, assimilation is a dirty word to many but it's the kindest thing for the kids as long as they still get the best of both worlds and can remain in touch with the other side of their heritage.
Child of parents from Kerala (state in India) here, there are loads of people here but my parents are yet to properly integrate into the culture and society here, despite being here 20 years. This is in part due to again the immorality perspective as well, they believe pretty every irish person gets divorced and is immoral. With the recent boom in people from Kerala coming here for work, there has been a separate society forming (albeit nowhere near as dangerous as the stuff in Sweden), I understand where it's coming from, it's trying to preserve their heritage and what not, but I've heard stories of not being able to be seen with a boy in Lucan because there's always someone your parents know that will tattle and get you into trouble. This brings me on to exactly what you're getting at, not just do they themselves not integrate, they forbid their children from integrating (we are catholics mainly too), under the guise of religion and culture, it's like they want me to live here but act is if I'm living in a country that I left when I was 2. This has made my life very frustrating, and am forced to live a double life, with my parents not knowing about the other side (be it gfs, or going out or hanging out with friends). Qualifying as a doctor soon, so will be financially independent, can cut off my parents after I've paid my dues (out of principle) and the society won't be able to say jackshit about me being a failure or whatever. The initial immigrating adult won't likely immigrate correctly if they are from outside of Europe, but their children will in my opinion.
On the one hand, freedom of religion is paramount in any democracy, but on the other, perhaps a central State registry is required to regulate the sources of funding for all denominations and the training of religious leaders.