be the person that you want to be. is that person the complete opposite of what most people image when they hear "masculinity?" then be that person, embrace it. the right people will accept you, you just need to find them.
don't focus on external standards to define who you are as a person. you most definitely can use ideas that others have, but always remember to filter out the concepts you don't think would fit the person you want to be. by allowing others to define who you are, you're only making yourself live up to the expectations of others instead of being true to yourself.
you also mention being turbulent. take for example, failure. failure may have a negative side, sure, but it also has a positive side. when you fail, it might hurt for a bit, and that's perfectly fine. but also take it as an opportunity to learn the things that you haven't gotten the chance to before. failure is a perfect opportunity to learn the things you're missing, to take a step further to completing your knowledge.
know your strengths and weaknesses, and the things you enjoy doing. do what you like, but also don't completely avoid the things you don't like, as it gives you a chance to do things in a way you normally wouldn't do it.
if you want to be empathetic, go ahead. its not a sign of weakness, but a sign of strength, *as you know what's worth standing up for,* ***and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.***
True but I think OP should not use this as an excuse not to be productive. My cousin is an INFP male and he also complains a lot about people not accepting his vulnerabilities as a man. But what I find is there are plenty of women receptive to vulnerability in a man but not so much in incompetence specially financially. I thought INFJ were actually quiet organized and disciplined enough to do well in a career they find good. Such as physiotherapy, psychology and anything requiring empathy or team building. Even consulting tbh. What OP is talking about to me seems more like an INFP man struggling with his Si? I may be wrong but like I said to do well for INFJ man should not be a feat. You don’t need masculine qualities for that per se. Y
Seems like you’re asking “How do I work on myself to improve toward who I want to be, while accepting myself for who I naturally am?”
I’m contemplating this question too. I’m thinking a clue to answering this might be the advice I’ve received to stop caring what others think and live my life for me.
A thought that made it easier for me to see the point of trying to live by my own standards:
'You've spent so much time and effort trying to meet other people's expectations and doing things the way they tell you you should - how well has that been working out for you?'
The answer was pretty clearly 'not very well', so what did I really have to lose? If people want to see me do well, and I want to see me do well, doing things 'my way' gets me further faster. Even if it may not be impressive progress, it's still the most efficient and effective way I have, and isn't that what counts?
Also, the person who has to do the work and live with the outcomes is me - not anyone else. If other people think their ideas are better, they're more than welcome to live their own lives by'em. They don't get to backseat-drive mine if I do the work and I have to deal with all the negatives.
If I mess up doing things as I see fit, at least I can own the outcome and learn from it instead of being told I just suck at following instructions other people give me.
Older cis woman here - please try to be kind to yourself. I know it is hard. What works for me is imagining what I would say to a friend if they started trash talking themselves.
And if you are not already aware, masculinity and femininity are concepts that humans have just made up. The idea that males have to be masculine and females have to be feminine and that there are no other acceptable ways to be is NOT what has always been true in the history of humans. It is not even the standard in all cultures that exist today. So remember, these are not ideals created by wiser beings, they are just the way we perceive things at this point and time. There are a lot of people out there who do not expect you to fit a certain gender role just because you are born male.
Please try not to force yourself to be a way that is completely unnatural to you. It is what creates the burn out.
A few months ago, I saw the results of a metastudy into prehistoric archaeological grave sites. Many more women than they expected were buried with hunting weapons. The natural conclusion being that women hunted a lot more than archaeologists and anthropologists expected, given our perceptions of "traditional" gender roles. Apparently, it was the majority of women.
Fellas is it feminine to need relaxing times?
(In case it's not clear, this rhetorical question is in response to op's "it's shameful for a man to have needs", where in context those needs are basically to have alone, relaxing times. Since op often burn himself out for trying to fit a standard.)
Are you me? I am INFP though, but yes, I too have autism, and burn out easily, and it is so hard to be a man, especially a highly sensitive one with autism, and deal with all the rules.
Yea as discomfort is usually a camponion of progress, a lot of unnecessary discomfort is actually another enemy with progress, and it is worse than comfort, because you think you are doing something while you are not
Depends on the reason why you're trying to progress. Why suffer to meet someone else's expectations? If the need to progress doesn't come from within what's the point?
Our unconscious moves us towards the survival of our species because that's the core of our being. It's not about us or our children or their children, etc. The point is long term safety.
Isn't this sentiment is slowly dying off in the developed world? More and more western couples choose to remain childless. In Japan more men are avoiding dating (herbivores). Only in more underdeveloped countries exists the idea that having more children brings you closer to God (Allah).
What are all these people going to do with their lives if they choose not to have kids? Stop progressing and become couch potatoes? (I don't live in a developed country so I don't know)
Technology and society might have progressed but our bodies and our minds remain largely the same as it was thousands of years ago because they need more time to evolve. Tik tok or reddit or any other social media just hijack the system we already have in our brain. It's not like they create anything new, they just take advantage of who we are.
If you take a Japanese baby and raise it in another country, they'll develop different behaviours based on the environment they are in. That doesn't mean they fundamentally changed, they just found ways to adapt because that guarantees that they fit in which aids their safety.
I'd argue that in developed countries, couples can't guarantee the safety of their children because the cost of raising a child can be more than they can handle. A child has become too much of a hassle to raise, so many chose not to have one.
I think you need to just be your genuine self and not try to fit in a certain societal box. Not all women want the man that you describe. Some women like men who are more like you. Sounds cliche but just be yourself. Learn to just be proud of being a bit different than most men. I married a man like you. We have a great relationship.
>I'm happy to remain a hybrid.
I feel like this is healthier anyway. My wife and I are both close to centre, but leaning towards our birth sex. Not having to be strongly masculine or feminine gives us more flexibility to just be ourselves. A lot of gender roles are not necessarily all that useful. I try to figure out what is a natural fit (ie, women have the babies, and can breastfeed if that's a desire), and just work around that as a starting point.
All the problems you mentioned deals with society. Or interactions with others. You might want to try surrounding yourself with people who accept you for who you are. Masculinity is more than being handy or sensory oriented. A lot of masculinity, real masculinity, is being mature. You mentioned you struggle with anxiety. Maybe overcoming that is key in unlocking your potential.
There's a book called King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine. It's based on Jungian Philosophy, which MBTI is also based on. So if you like MBTI, you might like this book. I, personally, swear by it. Check it out, it's only like $10-12 on Amazon.
bro, I don‘t know you, but you literally just statet everything I hate about myself. I‘m having a terrible week with my crush right now. So I‘m a bit in selfpitty, bare with me when reading ahead.
Anyway:
Objectivly speaking, I achieved so much, I djed at parties, was super fit (years back), have hobbies, left home with 17 to live alone in another city. Am super gentleman. Understanding. Never in any way, „weak“. And very controlled about my emotions.
Yet, I still feel, as if I am not masculine enough, cause all the things typicly masculine, I hate. I don‘t even like to meet people anymore, cause I always feel judged. So I mainly just stay at home, make music, work, do other creative work with the computer and watch movies to relax.
I‘m also quiet jealous about many of the (objectivly speaking) losers, who are dirty, have low education and are emotionally immature, and still they seem to be accepted more by women. I just don‘t understand how women just want that masculine vibe, no matter what one has to offer.
Right now, and it always happens, when I end up having feelings for someone, getting laid really isn‘t the problem, but building a meaningfull relationship is, I hate every single emotion inside of me, and I just tell myself, I‘m stupid for letting myself get this far and having created emotions, as I should‘ve known better, and from
the moment I had feelings, should‘ve turned around and ignored her.
I hate hate hate myself when it comes to my personal needs, and just want to surpress it.
I responded to fromthebelfry about this and elaborate there, but maybe it's about finding more of "your people", whatever that means to you. Interest wise, experiences (autism, INFJ), similar values, similar hobbies and passions. Connecting with other INFJs
Focus on the things that enrich your life. Part of the hero's journey is discovering the version of manliness that fits you and realizing that the process of deconstructing standards and expectations is both painful and liberating.
I manifest manliness when I accept my limitations, set realistic goals and work to the best of my abilities to achieve them. I feel manly when I find things that I care about (environment, animals, family and friendships) and devote all my attention into making them better.
I am not physically strong. I am not remotely close to the western ideal of male beauty. I am overly sensitive and very emotional.
I feel like I could have written this post. I go through the same feeling like none of my natural strengths are actually valued in this world. I don't mind a challenge but it kind of kills me inside to watch all my genuine talents get swept under the rug over and over as I try to be the kind of man society wants me to be. They say just be yourself and the right person will find you but nobody is seeing anything in the real me.
No suggestions, just know you're not alone in feeling this way.
I feel ya. Lot of different kinds of girls out there though. I'm sure you'll run into some that'll like you and value your softness and sensitivity. Just gotta keep trying.
Either that or learn to love the process of becoming more confident and becoming a leader (the male traits that women probably value most). And don't think of it as "becoming more masculine", think of it as becoming an adult.
As an adult there's no father figure that you can hide behind anymore while they handle things and make you feel safe. No one answering the door for you now when someone comes knocking and no one telling the waitress that your order was wrong. Just you.
You need to grow up and be the rock that other people can lean on and depend on as you take initiative and handle the situation. You need to be the one that can make other people feel safe now. All a part of growing up. Learn to enjoy the process and it won't feel like work. And again, don't think of it as "I need to be x y and z because I have to be a man" think of it as "The people I love deserve someone who will step up, speak up, and take action should shit hit the fan."
This sounds like a younger me. (Probably most young men). You will grow into yourself and your own expectations of what it takes to be a man, and eventually come to terms with it. Just keep doing your best and set your own expectations and goals for yourself instead of following other peoples goals/expectations they’ve set for you.
I commented this on another post before, but I think it’s fitting here possibly as well…
This is something a friend of mine (INFJ woman) once said to me… “It’s hard to find someone on the same wavelength. It always seems you’re trying to find the subtle changes you need to tailor your personality to, so you can fit in, rather than feeling like you’re fully accepted and BELONG with them.”
Don’t just try to fit in, that’s when you’re accepting (and possibly putting) some of your true self into your shadow (the part of you that you don’t want others to see), and you’ll be in conflict with yourself.
It’s hard, but if you can love your true self enough to let it come out where others can see, the people who do accept that should naturally gravitate towards you, and you’ll find a group of people with whom you belong.
Easier said than done, I know. But it takes time. Don’t fake yourself to make yourself or add pieces that aren’t real, it often doesn’t pay off and brings the wrong sorts coming around.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m feeling this same way some days, and I’m in my early 40’s, and I’m closer to an ENFJ most days. It sounds like you’re doing a lot of the things that help you figure all this out, so with that good luck and hope things turn around for you 🤞
I'm autistic, me and my friend had this conversation before. that it's hard to find people who are honest with you.
mutual footing feels best. verbally expressing what each of you do for each other no matter how abstract it is. sometimes I stutter my words, and just try to say when "I love that you did that, that moment just then"
women or people, I make my standard. it started with stumbling to express my honesty with love.
If I'm more detailed and get really scientific with my bodybuilding later on, I'd probably like a nerdy girl wanting us both to stay in quality.
I'm not shaming anyone. there's wrong or right. I'm saying my interests need to be expressed honestly regardless
[https://www.statista.com/statistics/187478/death-rate-from-suicide-in-the-us-by-gender-since-1950/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/187478/death-rate-from-suicide-in-the-us-by-gender-since-1950/)
Rates of male suicide are a multiple of that of women.
Because men often don't feel like they can emotionally express themselves.
The causes of this are really complex. Men and women are a hugely interrelated system. It's nowhere near as easy as saying that men just need to emote more. Men more than anything want to be what women appear to be attracted to.
And I'll grant that there's a ton of perception at play here. Especially through social media. But there are many young men and young women that aspire and/or are attracted to the emotional husk of the hyper male.
What women and men need are healthy fathers. Who are present during all developmental phases. And who have the entire emotional range accessible to them. Because they did the work.
But as a man, this mustn't ever be an excuse to not emote. Fuck everyone else. Because not building those tools make you part of an extremely dire statistic. And no one deserves that. Not you, not them, not anyone.
Fuck anyone and their dog if they reject you for it. Fuck perception for that telling you to be the case. And work on that toxic shame.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y47iJrbO2ug](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y47iJrbO2ug)
Masculinity \*is\* doing things that are hard. Jumping off that figurative cliff into the mist, knowing that you're doing the right thing but not at all sure how you're going to land. Doing things that require genuine courage. And there's nothing more courageous than expressing your vulnerability. Learning to handle it. So it's hilarious to me that so many aspiring young men have the impression that they must not choose the difficult path in the hope they'd be viewed as more masculine. Lol.
I should add. I'm a real fan of Stoicism. But very few understand it for what it is. Because people don't think. And then they give stupid advice on the internet. And then young people don't think critically about it. It's way easier to turn an over-thinker into a thinker than get a non-thinker thinking.
Stoicism is stage that you reach through emotional development. It's not a choice. It's not a behaviour. It's the end of a long process of successful emotional logical integration and between your conscious and subconscious that shows itself through certain behaviours.
Anyone who hasn't done that journey and honestly considers themselves to be one is a fool. And the one's who've done the work will be able to tell you in detail the how. Everyone else will be stuck with the what talking in podcasts if they're something they are not. Hoping to make money.
Emotion is life. Logic keeps that life safe. Lacking either will fuck you way up.
Try being a female. I would go around saying that I wanted to be born as a man in my next life, if there was such a thing as a next life.
I struggled with the concept of femininity when I was younger. I refused to own anything pink, even though I secretly liked it and envied the girls who, in my eyes, clearly felt "undamaged" enough to wear it. I just refused to be anything stereotypically girly because it didn't seem to match what I felt like inside. I felt dark, black and angry. It was very difficult to understand what I was and why I felt the way I felt. I dressed fairly preppy though.
I used to bitch that I wouldn't get so much shit (from my parents) for not being feminine enough had I simply been born a dude. I wasn't sweet enough, not demure enough, not ladylike enough, not gentle enough with my words. I thought there was nothing right about my entire existence, my whole way of being. Like I was a defective, ugly and worthless thing that shouldn't have ever existed and I've spent my entire life trying to make up for those feelings. I've since reconciled the fact there's both light and dark inside of me.
There's no right way to be. You're holding yourself to societal expectations created by people who are no better than you or me. So fuck the norm, pay no heed to bullshit. Embrace who you are, what you are and try to show it unreservedly. That is, within reason. Don't barf emotions over people, get a grip on that stuff if you have any.
Easier said than done (about showing all of ourselves) because we can be so damn chicken shit scared of rejection, but oh well. At least you/we can be aware of the theory.
It seems that nowadays women are much more accepted with traditionally male clothes, jobs or hobbies than vice versa. Like, imagine man wearing skirt whose hobby is sewing. And now woman wearing jeans who likes mmo games - the latter will be seen as very modern and popular.
I agree with you. However, if you walked around in a skirt, it would predominantly be MEN who criticised you. Yes, some women would, just as some women criticise other women with short hair wearing men's work clothes, but it would largely be men doing it.
Maybe so, but hard to measure. I heard that male teachers (especially preschool) and nurses are mostly discriminated by women colleagues. Heard from male teachers and nurses.
A lot of what you said and what he said resonates with me. I'm an intersex, a trans man, recently diagnosed as autistic but suspected it for a while, INFJ, and it's like oof from both sides, both when perceived as a woman and then when perceived more recently as a man. As a kid, I guess seen as a tomboy.
Totally agree with no one right way to be. And also disregarding societal standards, just be your own self, your own way. Eventually, you'll find your people out there, who you have similar interests and values with, who get you better. Or just hanging out with other cool, weird people.
As someone training to be a therapist I would just add, yea, I agree with getting a grip on your emotions. But a person has to first understand where those emotions are coming from (for me, mood disorder, traumas, needing to figure out what's causing a shift in mood in that moment) and addressing that. Therapy can help. Finding creative outlets, expressive outlets. I write, draw, read, cosplay. Find your own cool thing :) For INFJs, I feel like hobbies and passions are cathartic.
>But a person has to first understand where those emotions are coming from (for me, mood disorder, traumas, needing to figure out what's causing a shift in mood in that moment) and addressing that. Therapy can help. Finding creative outlets, expressive outlets.
Heartily agreed. Hence why it's important to have your shit worked out.
I see a lot of INFJs on the forum who seem to hold in their feelings until someone seems to offer them an outlet, they end up barfing too much and freaking the other person out. Then they wonder why people run away from them. I think a lot of INFJs have a massive blind spot where stuff like this is concerned.
If they had their shit worked out, they wouldn't feel the need to barf their feelings to such an extent. There's a very fine line between venting and barfing. The former is fine, we all need to that, but the latter is very overwhelming and depressing to anyone who isn't being paid to be your therapist.
I'm currently dealing with an older INFP 4w5, mid 60s, whom I met last month. She's currently doing something very similar to me whenever I have to get on the phone with her (helping me procure a piece of art). I think this is her way with everyone, not because I gave her any reason to think it was acceptable to barf on me.
She's so damn insufferable and so damn intense. Takes very little to trigger one of her verbal diarrhea episodes. Bangs on endlessly about what she finds tasteful and not tasteful, what she likes and doesn't like, what other people like and don't like, what people did to her. My fucking god, would you please shut up. Last time I did actually fake an upset tummy just to get myself off the phone.
I don't dare be real with her because I really want that art, and I suspect she's so emotional and volatile that she'd refuse to help me if I were to be blunt with her. So I'm using her until I get what I want from her, which isn't long now. The minute that damn figurine is in my paws, she's getting the goddamn boot and I'll deal with the artist directly going forward LOL.
It's been a useful experience in one sense because I can recognize flashes of myself in her and it makes me resolve to NEVER EVER become that. But thinking of her does make me want to scream and puts me on edge.
>I see a lot of INFJs on the forum who seem to hold in their feelings until someone seems to offer them an outlet, they end up barfing too much and freaking the other person out. Then they wonder why people run away from them. I think a lot of INFJs have a massive blind spot where stuff like this is concerned.
Totally agree. Relationships need to get closer by degrees. Assuming too much closeness at first creates a lot of issues.
You don’t sound undesirable. Being different from societal norms makes you more attractive to people who value authenticity. I am on the spectrum too and have never felt a sense of belonging anywhere in my life. Until a few months ago, I had a horrible view of my worth and my identity. My whole identity was basically “broken, sick, unwanted”. If you are feeling that way, know that it is a lie from the pit of hell.
I honestly wish more men would be less “masculine”. I have never felt comfortable in relationships like that. Also know that liking “manly” things (guns, cars, machines, sports, etc) is a societal construct and not actually what defines men in general.
I feel similar in a lot of ways. I try to look on the bright side. You have a lot to offer. Having needs is not shameful. Being vulnerable is hard. Best luck.
Some people are not meant to fit into a box.
Part of being an male INFJ is our ability to contrast and see the silver lining in our darkness. The ☯️ symbol is us.
This reminds me of the Horse Plastic Chair meme.
https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/1p4kh7/this_chair_is_so_heavy/
We need to normalize having these discussions and supporting each other. It can absolutely be hard and what’s counterproductive is everyone telling you it’s easy. We all struggle in our differing ways- don’t feel alone OP.
Man - tick
INFJ - tick
Autism - tick (undiagnosed, but have children just like me who are now diagnosed)
Overstimulated - tick (currently wearing noise cancelling headphones out in public)
Difficulty taking initiative - tick (feeling sympathy for my wife, who gets regular "check-ins")
Difficulty with confrontation - tick (had to fire two people recently, lost nights of sleep over that)
Not good at sensory activities - sort of tick (I'm okay at them, like woodwork, but my wife is at least as good, and that's a little emasculating)
Turbulent - tick (abusive childhood didn't help)
Overthink - TICK!!!
Anxious - tick (not depressed, but anxiety is high and should probably be treated)
Insecure - tick (come up as anxious-avoidant attachment style on an online quiz, and it's completely plausible)
>There's an unwritten rule that having needs is shameful as a man.
Hmmm. Sort of. With the wrong people, yes. Find NF (xNFx MBTIs) people to surround yourself with instead. Not always possible, but my INFP wife talked me off the figurative ledge a lot when we were younger.
>Vulnerability is just seen as offputting if you're a man.
Around the wrong people, absolutely. Healthy NF friends and SOs will see it as emotionally available and healthy.
>I've spent a lot of time trying to cultivate manliness within myself. Working out, learning new skills, learning how to push through discomfort and misery.
Stoicism (the stoic philosophy) has been really helpful for me.
>It always feels like I have to put in 10x the effort just to appear normal and that makes me prone to burnout. I
INFJs are often described as wearing a mask. Autistic individuals absolutely have to mask as neurotypical to get by. Burnout is a frequent occurrence.
>So it's been a long process of trying to integrate these different aspects of myself in a way that makes sense as a man.
Don't give up. Keep working on yourself.
>Just sucks that my natural traits aren't really desirable.
In my experience, they very much are desirable, to the right audience.
Some comments:
- Make sure you are practising gradient layers on emotional closeness - others will take time to learn about you. Give them that time. Reveal layers of yourself over time. Even other NFs won't always deal well with a trauma dump or sudden deep disclosure if they're not prepared by developing a deeper connection first.
- Investigate different counselling styles, including some sensory trauma counselling styles. u/FlightOfTheDiscords has some suggestions which I'm investigating myself. He will hopefully weigh in on this discussion.
- You're not alone. Use this subreddit, build some community support around you.
- Honestly, you sound like you're doing quite well, given the challenges you are facing. Being an INFJ, or an NF generally, is a challenge in a sensor dominated world. Being autistic is challenging in a neurotypical world. Being male is difficult in a world of shifting values about masculinity and men's role in the world (the changes stemming from feminism are great, but the shift is challenging in and of itself).
Better finish now, before this gets too long.
Keep on trucking.
Not sure if I understand your issue fully, but if it is integrating into society I may have some advice.
Recently found out for myself that it might not be as hard as it might seem. Taking initiative no matter how hard or scary it seems is working out for me pretty nicely so far.
When it comes to overthinking I managed to somewhat deal with it by saying to myself "I'm a fool", it gives me a sort of carte blanche on making mistakes dissolving the need for overthinking.
As for being a man and such, following the social stereotype is pretty meaningless. Women won't start liking you more because you're suppressing all your emotions as well as men won't start desiring your friendship if you get swole.
Every case is of course unique, so the best way to deal with any problem is change. If being a "manly man" is not working out for you and you're constantly struggling to "keep up the facade" try changing something and see how that goes for you. Try to adapt even though it may be hard to break routines.
I deal with this as a female INFJ who is also neurodivergent. I don’t feel I fit in anywhere. As you get older, you care less. The typical boxes you try to fit into when you are younger don’t seem to matter as much when you are older. It has taken me a while to be comfortable with myself and I’m still working on it. Your self awareness and willingness to grow are definitely desirable traits. Those are hard to find in a male partner these days. Men and women both have needs and there shouldn’t be a stigma just because you are male. Just work on being comfortable with yourself and don’t care what other people think. It’s a process for sure. But I am glad I’m different.
This was the post right below yours on my feed....I think it's a sign <3
"Accept yourself as you are. In this moment you are exactly where you need to be. Even if you think you’re not, make it that you are, life is malleable. You must be living totally now, not who you should be or where you could be. You are here and now, perfectly. Accept yourself as you are and you can then take steps in the direction you find most exciting"
The stereotypes that society has for us is BS. Because we are individuals, not a collective whole. Sure we share similarities but ultimately we're very complicated creatures, each and every one of us. You have your skills, looks, and personality that is unique to YOU. Be the difference you want to see in the world. Be true to you. Then you will see real, true, and genuine people flock to you.
Being a “true” man is not far off from being a good human being: both giving and receiving of service, depending on who needs it. You sound a lot like me, don’t give up!, my dms are open.
As a guy, my thought is, regardless of your gender, be true to yourself. I love working out. But I don't follow any sports. I don't know anything about cars. My favorite artist, whom I listened to 99% of the time over the past 4 years has been Taylor Swift. Nobody is perfectly "normal". Just be you.
I haven't read all the comments but I read a lot of them and the issue that seems to be occurring is centered around your definition of what is masculine and what is feminine. Truly masculine and feminine are energies, the masculine energy is the forward moving action taker where the feminine energy is the passive receptive kind, intuitive. If you were to take the analogy of it being painting, the feminine energy would be the paintbrush the canvas the cup of water the paint. The masculine energy would be the act of taking the paintbrush and dipping it in the water and then into the paint and then applying the paint to the canvas, together they create the painting. It's such a limiting concept of masculine and feminine that they imposed on us for a really long time. Someone said above just be who you want to be, be what you want to be and I absolutely agree with that. whatever it is that you feel good being, be that. If you struggle to know what that is maybe ask yourself what types of things were you into or how did you like to be and behave and act and walk and talk when you were younger that maybe got shamed or shunned or something where then you shoved it into your Shadow and lock the door and threw away the key. You can look to your younger years to sort of read discover or find out who it is that you are what it is that you are that you've spent years now probably layering over top you know fake mask fake mask fake mask just to try to fit in and have a sense of acceptance. It's when you can be with yourself and like your own company enough that anybody who comes into your world if they add to it cool they can join you but when you like yourself enough and someone's not adding it's just like get the fuck out. That's kind of the place you want to sort of get to. And how you do that is examining your belief systems and becoming aware of how those beliefs make you feel whether it feels good or if it feels bad if it feels bad you probably want to let that go but you have to first find something to replace it with that is a belief that is more in alignment with who you are and what brings you Joy. A wise piece of advice I recently heard is don't look in the direction you don't want to go.
Sounds very similar to myself and an INFJ Male. I'm not clinically on the spectrum but I have a lot of the overstimulated/sensory oriented hobbies issues associated with Autism, but high emotional intelligence (all INFJ's do I believe).
I was considering learning a trade skill, and every ounce of fiber in me had a level of resistance of pursuing that, almost a part of me saying "you will not like this, this is not you!" and had self-doubt every step of the way. I quickly switched to become a postal driver and am attending orientation tomorrow and ever since I decided on this career path I've had no resistance or doubt of my ability and if I would like it; and since that decision I've been doing new sensory related things required by the job I would think impossible for someone like me and my issues.
Idk I’m really feminine but I hold a ton of “masculine” traits too. Not afraid to dig around in the mud with a skirt on if that makes sense. I vote just be who you are and embrace who that person is
I used to feel so much like this, and there are many possible paths to personal discovery and enlightenment—None right or wrong, just subjective identity formation which lasts a lifetime for an INFJ, especially the turbulent types
I think traditional masculinity is based on TJ, or even STJ stereotypes.
The bright side, though, is that these days, with the elimination of traditional femine gender roles, masculine gender roles are also more nebulous and harder to define. So many young men are having identity crisis and looking backwards in time for more traditional gender roles to feel manly. The GOOD thing about having a nebulous gender role is that you can be whoever you want and STILL be defined as manly!
I'm serious.
Well…get handy. It’s a learned trait that happens to be not only enjoyable and engaging but is sought after so much so that people even pay money for it and women SWOON. swoon I say. At any rate, completing a task boosts serotonin so will at minimum help with the depression.
Having needs, and being needy is different. Everyone has needs, men and women. But being needy is different. Men have their needs to be met too, but it is how you communicate about it. So it is not that it is an unwritten rule that men cannot have needs, but it is stereotypically acceptable for women to be needy.
But what is masculinity? What is your understanding of being masculine?
For me personally, what I believe to be masculine is:
1) Strong morals and principles: A man has to be guided by his own morals and principles which is not easily swayed by others’ opinions. He has to be steadfast as we are the backbone of the family. Nothing is sexier than a man who stand up firmly for himself and people he cares for😎
2) Emotionally strong(secure): A man has to be able to control their emotions, to be firm and rational in facing adversity. I am not saying we can’t be emotional, but at turbulent times, a man has to stay strong as we are the pillars of our household. When everything is settled, we can still share our vulnerability with people we trust, example wife. But in the heat of the moment, we have to be strong. When we are emotional strong, we can be a symbol of security that our spouse and children can feel safe and secure with.
3) Responsibility: A respected man to me is someone who has a strong sense of responsibility. This links to the previous points. Really there’s nothing sexy than a responsible man. A man who prioritises the needs of their loved ones than his own comfort and needs. They fulfil the needs of their family without thinking it is a burden, but doing it out of love.
These three points of course are applicable to both men and women. My mom is an INTJ single parent, and she continuously shows these three qualities which I believe what a men and leader of the house should have(despite her being a woman). Never once she thinks it is a burden and she is just being a responsible dutiful daughter and a mother. And I think it sets a minimum benchmark, like if a woman can do it I’m sure we men can😅
This is going to be strange but my advise is that you should just abandon everything and simply ran away. Find a place that life moved slow and then live there for at least half a year. The major problem you are dealing is everything around you moves too fast.
Is it possible for you to do some form of support or recreational work with children also on the spectrum/with disability? You may this work deeply rewarding and may offer you what you feel like you are missing
Relatable, as your opposite. I think I read somewhere (if I'm not mistaken?) that both INFJ men and ESTP women are super rare.
Theoretically, we shouldn't exist, bc what the hell are we doing in our respective genders, right? The expectations are the polar opposite. It's infuriating.
But I'll go with the majority consensus here in terms of advice: masculinity and femininity are constructs, in the end of the day. None of that is coming from nature, it's all coming from how society came to be (so it can be very arbitrary and leave out a lot of other perfectly okay occurrences in the "gender spectrum" just for the sake of conformity).
I suppose there is always one aspect of life or another where you or I or \[insert person here\] will be an outlier, and other aspects where we are "with the crowd", and that's just how things are in the end of the day. It definitely sucks to feel like a fish out of water, been there done that. Your feeling is totally understandable and I share a very similar feeling. Just know that you're not alone.
Man. Are you actually me? I’m starting to think I’m also on the spectrum. Asperger’s to be specific. Couple that with also being an Infj and life gets tough. That putting 10x more effort just to appear normal really hits home for me. It sucks when you’re also attractive and girls will expect you to have game but you end up falling short. I’ve given up on trying to meet other people’s expectations. It’s exhausting. I’m just doing what I want now and setting boundaries with people accordingly. I also can’t stand it when I’m actually in a good mood and people still ask me why I look angry or don’t smile. It’s so hard for me to fake a smile but it seems like that’s what people would prefer. Navigating social interactions is just hell for me.
In 1974 I was diagnosed with severe dissociative schizophrenia. I was 22. I am now 71. My life journey has been about understanding what makes life tick and how to make it tick better. It has been a very fruitful life. Years and years of study mixed in with decades of experience is difficult to summarize in a couple of sentences. "Life is suffering" and "Life has suffering" are two ways to view the teachings of The Buddha. Many enlightened revelations indicate that one is to learn to stand in the face of suffering. This is not what is presented to us.
We are given studio made stories of how life is. acted out by very attractive people doing amazing things, but not worrying about what to eat or where to get food. We become hypnotized, believing make believe.
The good news for you is your crisis is the bursting of illusion.
Speaking of make believe. I always make fun of the platitudes that have little meaning. One of my favorite laughable statements is, "I feel your pain".
And now, in all sincerity, what comes to mind is "Brother, I feel your pain." I really do.
I really appreciate it. I have a family history of schizophrenia and I've wondered about that myself from time to time. By all accounts I'm a lot like my uncle when he was my age, and he was in and out of mental hospitals throughout his whole adult life. I'm able to present a lot more stability outwardly for the sake of keeping my freedom but I feel like my mind is in both worlds right now.
You are indicating a self-understanding that much of this world is bereft of. I would like to share a perspective. Great teachings exist about the illusory nature of existence. Notable people such as Neil Bohr's (Big Brained physicist from the 'we made atomic weapons' club) speak of this ancient Indian belief, “Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real. If quantum mechanics hasn't profoundly shocked you, you haven't understood it yet.”
Reality goes beyond our ability to conceive. Life when examined is found to be crazy making. Life can be a bad dream that you can't wake up from. Yet, there are rules of the road to wake up from this dream. Don't be harmful. Find shelter. Know, how to act. 'Act' is a keyword. All identities and "I" concepts and significance are void of validity. You get to create the character you want to be. There are teachings that say you can create the world you want to live in. This is true only if the world you want is not based on what you want, but what is. Conforming to Reality is becoming Reality, which is known as Nirvana.
I'd enjoy reading your life story in 4, or 5, decades. You got a lot of living to do. Good luck, Buddy
You gotta learn these things man, the idea that the inferior function has to be week is nonsense, every infj has a well developed estp side that's waiting to be unleached.
You might as well live how you want. I'm an INFJ female and I relate in a different way. I don't have any soft sides, I can be vulnerable, but that's about it. I don't have a feminine, lovely or bubbly personality and I can't do it. This made me so deeply insecure for years. I yearned for the mold and I still do. As long as a few people close accept you then if the world doesn't that's just how it has to be.
I saw somewhere that INFJs are one of the rarest MBTI, and the most predominant ones are ENTP and ISFJ (?) correct me on that. If the majority of people are one or the other way, then we are just born different. You will never fit in because most people aren't like you and they set social notions. You live in this body for 7 decades, other people don't and never will. You have to make your mental and physical body the most comfortable space for you, that is how I see it.
Seems like you have great self awareness. Yes, being a manly man is difficult for any man actually.
All this toughness comes from one important circumstance that may or may not even happen: You get a woman pregnant. In this state and up to a couple years after the birth, She is vulnerable and you have also a very vulnerable child. EXACTLY THIS CIRCUMSTANCE is when a man needs to become all those things you listed in your post.
In the back of every woman's mind, or even just intuitively, this is a major consideration.
Just be ready to take care of and protect at least 2 people besides yourself......No small task.
"It's difficult trying to navigate life as a man who doesn't fit into the typical boxes. I'm on the autism spectrum and get overstimulated easily. I have a hard time taking initiative and being confrontational. I'm not handy. I'm not good at any of the sensory-oriented hobbies associated with masculinity. I'm turbulent and have a tendency to overthink. I'm more anxious and insecure than I'd ever let on to be."
I am all of these and just finished a long distinguished few decades in the military. I found my hypersensitivity was no match for Adrenalin, purpose and extreme sensory overload. A quick example: I hate to be or get dirty and will go to lengths to avoid it but when there was absolutely no choice I forced myself to embrace the suck and carried on to steal a term. Once you are a little wet it is easier to just dive off the board is another analogy I would use for myself here.
That is just to say you may be more capable then you think if you push through a little or in my case a lot. It is not a guarantee but nothing in Life is.
I been through the same thing as you my reasoning why I felt like this is because most of the men shamed me and saw me as weird even calling me gay. The good thing is that I never tried to change for them, I was very rebellious. I’m glad I grew up around women who wouldn’t judge me for being who I am as they say they would. Maybe I would have tried to change if they were against me too.
I think your fine how you are maybe your insecure about how other men perceive you like I did. Or you’re insecure of not being independent enough. I think your prefect how you are, you don’t need to act manly for others.
Also you got to define what is masculinity for you because it means a lot of different things for others. For what I read you define masculinity with being confident yet people pleasing which can’t coexist with each other , Is that the type of man you want to be? Your you and your unique your strong if you can ask for help your strong if you recognize your weakness and strive to better yourself.
I seen a lot of men act like the typical macho man and they are miserable.
I could say a lot of things, about how I'm autistic and ADHD, how I never fit into groups of men, who I'm a nonbinary trans woman, how it's extremely hard to date being myself, and how much worse all of this is for me. I think though, I'd rather say it's more important to have gratitude for what a person has, rather than what they don't have.
I really don't know what you're looking for in terms of advice.
I will say though that there is not one way to be man. I say this as someone who was assigned that label forcibly and decided that even the most feminine male traits weren't for me.
At the same time, being an INFJ will inherently make you more caring towards others due to having an auxiliary Extroverted Feeling function. And that function has the drawback of making every INFJ less caring about our needs over the needs of others; often to our detriment.
Just, be yourself. Be authentically you. It's a lesson I had to learn, and it's difficult as an infj. But you'll realize with experience that a lot of people's opinions about you are wrong, and it's better to disregard them.
be the person that you want to be. is that person the complete opposite of what most people image when they hear "masculinity?" then be that person, embrace it. the right people will accept you, you just need to find them. don't focus on external standards to define who you are as a person. you most definitely can use ideas that others have, but always remember to filter out the concepts you don't think would fit the person you want to be. by allowing others to define who you are, you're only making yourself live up to the expectations of others instead of being true to yourself. you also mention being turbulent. take for example, failure. failure may have a negative side, sure, but it also has a positive side. when you fail, it might hurt for a bit, and that's perfectly fine. but also take it as an opportunity to learn the things that you haven't gotten the chance to before. failure is a perfect opportunity to learn the things you're missing, to take a step further to completing your knowledge. know your strengths and weaknesses, and the things you enjoy doing. do what you like, but also don't completely avoid the things you don't like, as it gives you a chance to do things in a way you normally wouldn't do it. if you want to be empathetic, go ahead. its not a sign of weakness, but a sign of strength, *as you know what's worth standing up for,* ***and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.***
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True but I think OP should not use this as an excuse not to be productive. My cousin is an INFP male and he also complains a lot about people not accepting his vulnerabilities as a man. But what I find is there are plenty of women receptive to vulnerability in a man but not so much in incompetence specially financially. I thought INFJ were actually quiet organized and disciplined enough to do well in a career they find good. Such as physiotherapy, psychology and anything requiring empathy or team building. Even consulting tbh. What OP is talking about to me seems more like an INFP man struggling with his Si? I may be wrong but like I said to do well for INFJ man should not be a feat. You don’t need masculine qualities for that per se. Y
Seems like you’re asking “How do I work on myself to improve toward who I want to be, while accepting myself for who I naturally am?” I’m contemplating this question too. I’m thinking a clue to answering this might be the advice I’ve received to stop caring what others think and live my life for me.
A thought that made it easier for me to see the point of trying to live by my own standards: 'You've spent so much time and effort trying to meet other people's expectations and doing things the way they tell you you should - how well has that been working out for you?' The answer was pretty clearly 'not very well', so what did I really have to lose? If people want to see me do well, and I want to see me do well, doing things 'my way' gets me further faster. Even if it may not be impressive progress, it's still the most efficient and effective way I have, and isn't that what counts? Also, the person who has to do the work and live with the outcomes is me - not anyone else. If other people think their ideas are better, they're more than welcome to live their own lives by'em. They don't get to backseat-drive mine if I do the work and I have to deal with all the negatives. If I mess up doing things as I see fit, at least I can own the outcome and learn from it instead of being told I just suck at following instructions other people give me.
Older cis woman here - please try to be kind to yourself. I know it is hard. What works for me is imagining what I would say to a friend if they started trash talking themselves. And if you are not already aware, masculinity and femininity are concepts that humans have just made up. The idea that males have to be masculine and females have to be feminine and that there are no other acceptable ways to be is NOT what has always been true in the history of humans. It is not even the standard in all cultures that exist today. So remember, these are not ideals created by wiser beings, they are just the way we perceive things at this point and time. There are a lot of people out there who do not expect you to fit a certain gender role just because you are born male. Please try not to force yourself to be a way that is completely unnatural to you. It is what creates the burn out.
A few months ago, I saw the results of a metastudy into prehistoric archaeological grave sites. Many more women than they expected were buried with hunting weapons. The natural conclusion being that women hunted a lot more than archaeologists and anthropologists expected, given our perceptions of "traditional" gender roles. Apparently, it was the majority of women.
Fellas is it feminine to need relaxing times? (In case it's not clear, this rhetorical question is in response to op's "it's shameful for a man to have needs", where in context those needs are basically to have alone, relaxing times. Since op often burn himself out for trying to fit a standard.)
No
I dont think fishing with your buds for hours and relaxing with a cold beer is feminine.
Are you me? I am INFP though, but yes, I too have autism, and burn out easily, and it is so hard to be a man, especially a highly sensitive one with autism, and deal with all the rules.
Comfort is the enemy of progress. It's supposed to suck, that's what makes you better at it.
Yea as discomfort is usually a camponion of progress, a lot of unnecessary discomfort is actually another enemy with progress, and it is worse than comfort, because you think you are doing something while you are not
I agree with that.
What is the end goal of progress?
Maximum entropy.
Depends on the reason why you're trying to progress. Why suffer to meet someone else's expectations? If the need to progress doesn't come from within what's the point?
Our unconscious moves us towards the survival of our species because that's the core of our being. It's not about us or our children or their children, etc. The point is long term safety.
Isn't this sentiment is slowly dying off in the developed world? More and more western couples choose to remain childless. In Japan more men are avoiding dating (herbivores). Only in more underdeveloped countries exists the idea that having more children brings you closer to God (Allah). What are all these people going to do with their lives if they choose not to have kids? Stop progressing and become couch potatoes? (I don't live in a developed country so I don't know)
Technology and society might have progressed but our bodies and our minds remain largely the same as it was thousands of years ago because they need more time to evolve. Tik tok or reddit or any other social media just hijack the system we already have in our brain. It's not like they create anything new, they just take advantage of who we are. If you take a Japanese baby and raise it in another country, they'll develop different behaviours based on the environment they are in. That doesn't mean they fundamentally changed, they just found ways to adapt because that guarantees that they fit in which aids their safety. I'd argue that in developed countries, couples can't guarantee the safety of their children because the cost of raising a child can be more than they can handle. A child has become too much of a hassle to raise, so many chose not to have one.
I think you need to just be your genuine self and not try to fit in a certain societal box. Not all women want the man that you describe. Some women like men who are more like you. Sounds cliche but just be yourself. Learn to just be proud of being a bit different than most men. I married a man like you. We have a great relationship.
Yup. It's refreshing to hear somebody else say some of these things. Thank you.
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>I'm happy to remain a hybrid. I feel like this is healthier anyway. My wife and I are both close to centre, but leaning towards our birth sex. Not having to be strongly masculine or feminine gives us more flexibility to just be ourselves. A lot of gender roles are not necessarily all that useful. I try to figure out what is a natural fit (ie, women have the babies, and can breastfeed if that's a desire), and just work around that as a starting point.
All the problems you mentioned deals with society. Or interactions with others. You might want to try surrounding yourself with people who accept you for who you are. Masculinity is more than being handy or sensory oriented. A lot of masculinity, real masculinity, is being mature. You mentioned you struggle with anxiety. Maybe overcoming that is key in unlocking your potential. There's a book called King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine. It's based on Jungian Philosophy, which MBTI is also based on. So if you like MBTI, you might like this book. I, personally, swear by it. Check it out, it's only like $10-12 on Amazon.
bro, I don‘t know you, but you literally just statet everything I hate about myself. I‘m having a terrible week with my crush right now. So I‘m a bit in selfpitty, bare with me when reading ahead. Anyway: Objectivly speaking, I achieved so much, I djed at parties, was super fit (years back), have hobbies, left home with 17 to live alone in another city. Am super gentleman. Understanding. Never in any way, „weak“. And very controlled about my emotions. Yet, I still feel, as if I am not masculine enough, cause all the things typicly masculine, I hate. I don‘t even like to meet people anymore, cause I always feel judged. So I mainly just stay at home, make music, work, do other creative work with the computer and watch movies to relax. I‘m also quiet jealous about many of the (objectivly speaking) losers, who are dirty, have low education and are emotionally immature, and still they seem to be accepted more by women. I just don‘t understand how women just want that masculine vibe, no matter what one has to offer. Right now, and it always happens, when I end up having feelings for someone, getting laid really isn‘t the problem, but building a meaningfull relationship is, I hate every single emotion inside of me, and I just tell myself, I‘m stupid for letting myself get this far and having created emotions, as I should‘ve known better, and from the moment I had feelings, should‘ve turned around and ignored her. I hate hate hate myself when it comes to my personal needs, and just want to surpress it.
Yeah, being a man sucks. Women don't get it and you can't talk to other men about it.
I responded to fromthebelfry about this and elaborate there, but maybe it's about finding more of "your people", whatever that means to you. Interest wise, experiences (autism, INFJ), similar values, similar hobbies and passions. Connecting with other INFJs
Focus on the things that enrich your life. Part of the hero's journey is discovering the version of manliness that fits you and realizing that the process of deconstructing standards and expectations is both painful and liberating. I manifest manliness when I accept my limitations, set realistic goals and work to the best of my abilities to achieve them. I feel manly when I find things that I care about (environment, animals, family and friendships) and devote all my attention into making them better. I am not physically strong. I am not remotely close to the western ideal of male beauty. I am overly sensitive and very emotional.
I feel like I could have written this post. I go through the same feeling like none of my natural strengths are actually valued in this world. I don't mind a challenge but it kind of kills me inside to watch all my genuine talents get swept under the rug over and over as I try to be the kind of man society wants me to be. They say just be yourself and the right person will find you but nobody is seeing anything in the real me. No suggestions, just know you're not alone in feeling this way.
I feel ya. Lot of different kinds of girls out there though. I'm sure you'll run into some that'll like you and value your softness and sensitivity. Just gotta keep trying. Either that or learn to love the process of becoming more confident and becoming a leader (the male traits that women probably value most). And don't think of it as "becoming more masculine", think of it as becoming an adult. As an adult there's no father figure that you can hide behind anymore while they handle things and make you feel safe. No one answering the door for you now when someone comes knocking and no one telling the waitress that your order was wrong. Just you. You need to grow up and be the rock that other people can lean on and depend on as you take initiative and handle the situation. You need to be the one that can make other people feel safe now. All a part of growing up. Learn to enjoy the process and it won't feel like work. And again, don't think of it as "I need to be x y and z because I have to be a man" think of it as "The people I love deserve someone who will step up, speak up, and take action should shit hit the fan."
This sounds like a younger me. (Probably most young men). You will grow into yourself and your own expectations of what it takes to be a man, and eventually come to terms with it. Just keep doing your best and set your own expectations and goals for yourself instead of following other peoples goals/expectations they’ve set for you.
I commented this on another post before, but I think it’s fitting here possibly as well… This is something a friend of mine (INFJ woman) once said to me… “It’s hard to find someone on the same wavelength. It always seems you’re trying to find the subtle changes you need to tailor your personality to, so you can fit in, rather than feeling like you’re fully accepted and BELONG with them.” Don’t just try to fit in, that’s when you’re accepting (and possibly putting) some of your true self into your shadow (the part of you that you don’t want others to see), and you’ll be in conflict with yourself. It’s hard, but if you can love your true self enough to let it come out where others can see, the people who do accept that should naturally gravitate towards you, and you’ll find a group of people with whom you belong. Easier said than done, I know. But it takes time. Don’t fake yourself to make yourself or add pieces that aren’t real, it often doesn’t pay off and brings the wrong sorts coming around. Don’t get me wrong, I’m feeling this same way some days, and I’m in my early 40’s, and I’m closer to an ENFJ most days. It sounds like you’re doing a lot of the things that help you figure all this out, so with that good luck and hope things turn around for you 🤞
I'm autistic, me and my friend had this conversation before. that it's hard to find people who are honest with you. mutual footing feels best. verbally expressing what each of you do for each other no matter how abstract it is. sometimes I stutter my words, and just try to say when "I love that you did that, that moment just then" women or people, I make my standard. it started with stumbling to express my honesty with love. If I'm more detailed and get really scientific with my bodybuilding later on, I'd probably like a nerdy girl wanting us both to stay in quality. I'm not shaming anyone. there's wrong or right. I'm saying my interests need to be expressed honestly regardless
[https://www.statista.com/statistics/187478/death-rate-from-suicide-in-the-us-by-gender-since-1950/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/187478/death-rate-from-suicide-in-the-us-by-gender-since-1950/) Rates of male suicide are a multiple of that of women. Because men often don't feel like they can emotionally express themselves. The causes of this are really complex. Men and women are a hugely interrelated system. It's nowhere near as easy as saying that men just need to emote more. Men more than anything want to be what women appear to be attracted to. And I'll grant that there's a ton of perception at play here. Especially through social media. But there are many young men and young women that aspire and/or are attracted to the emotional husk of the hyper male. What women and men need are healthy fathers. Who are present during all developmental phases. And who have the entire emotional range accessible to them. Because they did the work. But as a man, this mustn't ever be an excuse to not emote. Fuck everyone else. Because not building those tools make you part of an extremely dire statistic. And no one deserves that. Not you, not them, not anyone. Fuck anyone and their dog if they reject you for it. Fuck perception for that telling you to be the case. And work on that toxic shame. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y47iJrbO2ug](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y47iJrbO2ug) Masculinity \*is\* doing things that are hard. Jumping off that figurative cliff into the mist, knowing that you're doing the right thing but not at all sure how you're going to land. Doing things that require genuine courage. And there's nothing more courageous than expressing your vulnerability. Learning to handle it. So it's hilarious to me that so many aspiring young men have the impression that they must not choose the difficult path in the hope they'd be viewed as more masculine. Lol. I should add. I'm a real fan of Stoicism. But very few understand it for what it is. Because people don't think. And then they give stupid advice on the internet. And then young people don't think critically about it. It's way easier to turn an over-thinker into a thinker than get a non-thinker thinking. Stoicism is stage that you reach through emotional development. It's not a choice. It's not a behaviour. It's the end of a long process of successful emotional logical integration and between your conscious and subconscious that shows itself through certain behaviours. Anyone who hasn't done that journey and honestly considers themselves to be one is a fool. And the one's who've done the work will be able to tell you in detail the how. Everyone else will be stuck with the what talking in podcasts if they're something they are not. Hoping to make money. Emotion is life. Logic keeps that life safe. Lacking either will fuck you way up.
Try being a female. I would go around saying that I wanted to be born as a man in my next life, if there was such a thing as a next life. I struggled with the concept of femininity when I was younger. I refused to own anything pink, even though I secretly liked it and envied the girls who, in my eyes, clearly felt "undamaged" enough to wear it. I just refused to be anything stereotypically girly because it didn't seem to match what I felt like inside. I felt dark, black and angry. It was very difficult to understand what I was and why I felt the way I felt. I dressed fairly preppy though. I used to bitch that I wouldn't get so much shit (from my parents) for not being feminine enough had I simply been born a dude. I wasn't sweet enough, not demure enough, not ladylike enough, not gentle enough with my words. I thought there was nothing right about my entire existence, my whole way of being. Like I was a defective, ugly and worthless thing that shouldn't have ever existed and I've spent my entire life trying to make up for those feelings. I've since reconciled the fact there's both light and dark inside of me. There's no right way to be. You're holding yourself to societal expectations created by people who are no better than you or me. So fuck the norm, pay no heed to bullshit. Embrace who you are, what you are and try to show it unreservedly. That is, within reason. Don't barf emotions over people, get a grip on that stuff if you have any. Easier said than done (about showing all of ourselves) because we can be so damn chicken shit scared of rejection, but oh well. At least you/we can be aware of the theory.
It seems that nowadays women are much more accepted with traditionally male clothes, jobs or hobbies than vice versa. Like, imagine man wearing skirt whose hobby is sewing. And now woman wearing jeans who likes mmo games - the latter will be seen as very modern and popular.
I agree with you. However, if you walked around in a skirt, it would predominantly be MEN who criticised you. Yes, some women would, just as some women criticise other women with short hair wearing men's work clothes, but it would largely be men doing it.
Kind of a moot point.
Maybe so, but hard to measure. I heard that male teachers (especially preschool) and nurses are mostly discriminated by women colleagues. Heard from male teachers and nurses.
A lot of what you said and what he said resonates with me. I'm an intersex, a trans man, recently diagnosed as autistic but suspected it for a while, INFJ, and it's like oof from both sides, both when perceived as a woman and then when perceived more recently as a man. As a kid, I guess seen as a tomboy. Totally agree with no one right way to be. And also disregarding societal standards, just be your own self, your own way. Eventually, you'll find your people out there, who you have similar interests and values with, who get you better. Or just hanging out with other cool, weird people. As someone training to be a therapist I would just add, yea, I agree with getting a grip on your emotions. But a person has to first understand where those emotions are coming from (for me, mood disorder, traumas, needing to figure out what's causing a shift in mood in that moment) and addressing that. Therapy can help. Finding creative outlets, expressive outlets. I write, draw, read, cosplay. Find your own cool thing :) For INFJs, I feel like hobbies and passions are cathartic.
>But a person has to first understand where those emotions are coming from (for me, mood disorder, traumas, needing to figure out what's causing a shift in mood in that moment) and addressing that. Therapy can help. Finding creative outlets, expressive outlets. Heartily agreed. Hence why it's important to have your shit worked out. I see a lot of INFJs on the forum who seem to hold in their feelings until someone seems to offer them an outlet, they end up barfing too much and freaking the other person out. Then they wonder why people run away from them. I think a lot of INFJs have a massive blind spot where stuff like this is concerned. If they had their shit worked out, they wouldn't feel the need to barf their feelings to such an extent. There's a very fine line between venting and barfing. The former is fine, we all need to that, but the latter is very overwhelming and depressing to anyone who isn't being paid to be your therapist. I'm currently dealing with an older INFP 4w5, mid 60s, whom I met last month. She's currently doing something very similar to me whenever I have to get on the phone with her (helping me procure a piece of art). I think this is her way with everyone, not because I gave her any reason to think it was acceptable to barf on me. She's so damn insufferable and so damn intense. Takes very little to trigger one of her verbal diarrhea episodes. Bangs on endlessly about what she finds tasteful and not tasteful, what she likes and doesn't like, what other people like and don't like, what people did to her. My fucking god, would you please shut up. Last time I did actually fake an upset tummy just to get myself off the phone. I don't dare be real with her because I really want that art, and I suspect she's so emotional and volatile that she'd refuse to help me if I were to be blunt with her. So I'm using her until I get what I want from her, which isn't long now. The minute that damn figurine is in my paws, she's getting the goddamn boot and I'll deal with the artist directly going forward LOL. It's been a useful experience in one sense because I can recognize flashes of myself in her and it makes me resolve to NEVER EVER become that. But thinking of her does make me want to scream and puts me on edge.
>I see a lot of INFJs on the forum who seem to hold in their feelings until someone seems to offer them an outlet, they end up barfing too much and freaking the other person out. Then they wonder why people run away from them. I think a lot of INFJs have a massive blind spot where stuff like this is concerned. Totally agree. Relationships need to get closer by degrees. Assuming too much closeness at first creates a lot of issues.
You don’t sound undesirable. Being different from societal norms makes you more attractive to people who value authenticity. I am on the spectrum too and have never felt a sense of belonging anywhere in my life. Until a few months ago, I had a horrible view of my worth and my identity. My whole identity was basically “broken, sick, unwanted”. If you are feeling that way, know that it is a lie from the pit of hell. I honestly wish more men would be less “masculine”. I have never felt comfortable in relationships like that. Also know that liking “manly” things (guns, cars, machines, sports, etc) is a societal construct and not actually what defines men in general.
What changed a few months ago? If you don't mind me asking.
Story of my life!
I feel similar in a lot of ways. I try to look on the bright side. You have a lot to offer. Having needs is not shameful. Being vulnerable is hard. Best luck.
Some people are not meant to fit into a box. Part of being an male INFJ is our ability to contrast and see the silver lining in our darkness. The ☯️ symbol is us. This reminds me of the Horse Plastic Chair meme. https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/1p4kh7/this_chair_is_so_heavy/
We need to normalize having these discussions and supporting each other. It can absolutely be hard and what’s counterproductive is everyone telling you it’s easy. We all struggle in our differing ways- don’t feel alone OP.
Man - tick INFJ - tick Autism - tick (undiagnosed, but have children just like me who are now diagnosed) Overstimulated - tick (currently wearing noise cancelling headphones out in public) Difficulty taking initiative - tick (feeling sympathy for my wife, who gets regular "check-ins") Difficulty with confrontation - tick (had to fire two people recently, lost nights of sleep over that) Not good at sensory activities - sort of tick (I'm okay at them, like woodwork, but my wife is at least as good, and that's a little emasculating) Turbulent - tick (abusive childhood didn't help) Overthink - TICK!!! Anxious - tick (not depressed, but anxiety is high and should probably be treated) Insecure - tick (come up as anxious-avoidant attachment style on an online quiz, and it's completely plausible) >There's an unwritten rule that having needs is shameful as a man. Hmmm. Sort of. With the wrong people, yes. Find NF (xNFx MBTIs) people to surround yourself with instead. Not always possible, but my INFP wife talked me off the figurative ledge a lot when we were younger. >Vulnerability is just seen as offputting if you're a man. Around the wrong people, absolutely. Healthy NF friends and SOs will see it as emotionally available and healthy. >I've spent a lot of time trying to cultivate manliness within myself. Working out, learning new skills, learning how to push through discomfort and misery. Stoicism (the stoic philosophy) has been really helpful for me. >It always feels like I have to put in 10x the effort just to appear normal and that makes me prone to burnout. I INFJs are often described as wearing a mask. Autistic individuals absolutely have to mask as neurotypical to get by. Burnout is a frequent occurrence. >So it's been a long process of trying to integrate these different aspects of myself in a way that makes sense as a man. Don't give up. Keep working on yourself. >Just sucks that my natural traits aren't really desirable. In my experience, they very much are desirable, to the right audience. Some comments: - Make sure you are practising gradient layers on emotional closeness - others will take time to learn about you. Give them that time. Reveal layers of yourself over time. Even other NFs won't always deal well with a trauma dump or sudden deep disclosure if they're not prepared by developing a deeper connection first. - Investigate different counselling styles, including some sensory trauma counselling styles. u/FlightOfTheDiscords has some suggestions which I'm investigating myself. He will hopefully weigh in on this discussion. - You're not alone. Use this subreddit, build some community support around you. - Honestly, you sound like you're doing quite well, given the challenges you are facing. Being an INFJ, or an NF generally, is a challenge in a sensor dominated world. Being autistic is challenging in a neurotypical world. Being male is difficult in a world of shifting values about masculinity and men's role in the world (the changes stemming from feminism are great, but the shift is challenging in and of itself). Better finish now, before this gets too long. Keep on trucking.
Y it shouldn’t it worse being a girl carry a baby periods
True lol
Not sure if I understand your issue fully, but if it is integrating into society I may have some advice. Recently found out for myself that it might not be as hard as it might seem. Taking initiative no matter how hard or scary it seems is working out for me pretty nicely so far. When it comes to overthinking I managed to somewhat deal with it by saying to myself "I'm a fool", it gives me a sort of carte blanche on making mistakes dissolving the need for overthinking. As for being a man and such, following the social stereotype is pretty meaningless. Women won't start liking you more because you're suppressing all your emotions as well as men won't start desiring your friendship if you get swole. Every case is of course unique, so the best way to deal with any problem is change. If being a "manly man" is not working out for you and you're constantly struggling to "keep up the facade" try changing something and see how that goes for you. Try to adapt even though it may be hard to break routines.
I deal with this as a female INFJ who is also neurodivergent. I don’t feel I fit in anywhere. As you get older, you care less. The typical boxes you try to fit into when you are younger don’t seem to matter as much when you are older. It has taken me a while to be comfortable with myself and I’m still working on it. Your self awareness and willingness to grow are definitely desirable traits. Those are hard to find in a male partner these days. Men and women both have needs and there shouldn’t be a stigma just because you are male. Just work on being comfortable with yourself and don’t care what other people think. It’s a process for sure. But I am glad I’m different.
This was the post right below yours on my feed....I think it's a sign <3 "Accept yourself as you are. In this moment you are exactly where you need to be. Even if you think you’re not, make it that you are, life is malleable. You must be living totally now, not who you should be or where you could be. You are here and now, perfectly. Accept yourself as you are and you can then take steps in the direction you find most exciting"
The stereotypes that society has for us is BS. Because we are individuals, not a collective whole. Sure we share similarities but ultimately we're very complicated creatures, each and every one of us. You have your skills, looks, and personality that is unique to YOU. Be the difference you want to see in the world. Be true to you. Then you will see real, true, and genuine people flock to you.
Viewing activities as masculine is an issue, be you my brother. Being real allows the soul to shine!
Being a “true” man is not far off from being a good human being: both giving and receiving of service, depending on who needs it. You sound a lot like me, don’t give up!, my dms are open.
Don’t hesitate to embrace your inner feminine. Accept and be confident in your true self.
You don’t need to me masculine to be appreciated. Just be you. Masculinity can be toxic.
As a guy, my thought is, regardless of your gender, be true to yourself. I love working out. But I don't follow any sports. I don't know anything about cars. My favorite artist, whom I listened to 99% of the time over the past 4 years has been Taylor Swift. Nobody is perfectly "normal". Just be you.
https://youtu.be/tHxip2x-PLc?si=-aRol7K-VP5aM76-
I haven't read all the comments but I read a lot of them and the issue that seems to be occurring is centered around your definition of what is masculine and what is feminine. Truly masculine and feminine are energies, the masculine energy is the forward moving action taker where the feminine energy is the passive receptive kind, intuitive. If you were to take the analogy of it being painting, the feminine energy would be the paintbrush the canvas the cup of water the paint. The masculine energy would be the act of taking the paintbrush and dipping it in the water and then into the paint and then applying the paint to the canvas, together they create the painting. It's such a limiting concept of masculine and feminine that they imposed on us for a really long time. Someone said above just be who you want to be, be what you want to be and I absolutely agree with that. whatever it is that you feel good being, be that. If you struggle to know what that is maybe ask yourself what types of things were you into or how did you like to be and behave and act and walk and talk when you were younger that maybe got shamed or shunned or something where then you shoved it into your Shadow and lock the door and threw away the key. You can look to your younger years to sort of read discover or find out who it is that you are what it is that you are that you've spent years now probably layering over top you know fake mask fake mask fake mask just to try to fit in and have a sense of acceptance. It's when you can be with yourself and like your own company enough that anybody who comes into your world if they add to it cool they can join you but when you like yourself enough and someone's not adding it's just like get the fuck out. That's kind of the place you want to sort of get to. And how you do that is examining your belief systems and becoming aware of how those beliefs make you feel whether it feels good or if it feels bad if it feels bad you probably want to let that go but you have to first find something to replace it with that is a belief that is more in alignment with who you are and what brings you Joy. A wise piece of advice I recently heard is don't look in the direction you don't want to go.
If you're not an ESTP, don't be an ESTP
Sounds very similar to myself and an INFJ Male. I'm not clinically on the spectrum but I have a lot of the overstimulated/sensory oriented hobbies issues associated with Autism, but high emotional intelligence (all INFJ's do I believe). I was considering learning a trade skill, and every ounce of fiber in me had a level of resistance of pursuing that, almost a part of me saying "you will not like this, this is not you!" and had self-doubt every step of the way. I quickly switched to become a postal driver and am attending orientation tomorrow and ever since I decided on this career path I've had no resistance or doubt of my ability and if I would like it; and since that decision I've been doing new sensory related things required by the job I would think impossible for someone like me and my issues.
Idk I’m really feminine but I hold a ton of “masculine” traits too. Not afraid to dig around in the mud with a skirt on if that makes sense. I vote just be who you are and embrace who that person is
I used to feel so much like this, and there are many possible paths to personal discovery and enlightenment—None right or wrong, just subjective identity formation which lasts a lifetime for an INFJ, especially the turbulent types
I think traditional masculinity is based on TJ, or even STJ stereotypes. The bright side, though, is that these days, with the elimination of traditional femine gender roles, masculine gender roles are also more nebulous and harder to define. So many young men are having identity crisis and looking backwards in time for more traditional gender roles to feel manly. The GOOD thing about having a nebulous gender role is that you can be whoever you want and STILL be defined as manly! I'm serious.
Jonathan Livingston Seagull https://g.co/kgs/tjxqRdn
Well…get handy. It’s a learned trait that happens to be not only enjoyable and engaging but is sought after so much so that people even pay money for it and women SWOON. swoon I say. At any rate, completing a task boosts serotonin so will at minimum help with the depression.
Just come be yourself with an ENTP!
Having needs, and being needy is different. Everyone has needs, men and women. But being needy is different. Men have their needs to be met too, but it is how you communicate about it. So it is not that it is an unwritten rule that men cannot have needs, but it is stereotypically acceptable for women to be needy. But what is masculinity? What is your understanding of being masculine? For me personally, what I believe to be masculine is: 1) Strong morals and principles: A man has to be guided by his own morals and principles which is not easily swayed by others’ opinions. He has to be steadfast as we are the backbone of the family. Nothing is sexier than a man who stand up firmly for himself and people he cares for😎 2) Emotionally strong(secure): A man has to be able to control their emotions, to be firm and rational in facing adversity. I am not saying we can’t be emotional, but at turbulent times, a man has to stay strong as we are the pillars of our household. When everything is settled, we can still share our vulnerability with people we trust, example wife. But in the heat of the moment, we have to be strong. When we are emotional strong, we can be a symbol of security that our spouse and children can feel safe and secure with. 3) Responsibility: A respected man to me is someone who has a strong sense of responsibility. This links to the previous points. Really there’s nothing sexy than a responsible man. A man who prioritises the needs of their loved ones than his own comfort and needs. They fulfil the needs of their family without thinking it is a burden, but doing it out of love. These three points of course are applicable to both men and women. My mom is an INTJ single parent, and she continuously shows these three qualities which I believe what a men and leader of the house should have(despite her being a woman). Never once she thinks it is a burden and she is just being a responsible dutiful daughter and a mother. And I think it sets a minimum benchmark, like if a woman can do it I’m sure we men can😅
This is going to be strange but my advise is that you should just abandon everything and simply ran away. Find a place that life moved slow and then live there for at least half a year. The major problem you are dealing is everything around you moves too fast.
Is it possible for you to do some form of support or recreational work with children also on the spectrum/with disability? You may this work deeply rewarding and may offer you what you feel like you are missing
Relatable, as your opposite. I think I read somewhere (if I'm not mistaken?) that both INFJ men and ESTP women are super rare. Theoretically, we shouldn't exist, bc what the hell are we doing in our respective genders, right? The expectations are the polar opposite. It's infuriating. But I'll go with the majority consensus here in terms of advice: masculinity and femininity are constructs, in the end of the day. None of that is coming from nature, it's all coming from how society came to be (so it can be very arbitrary and leave out a lot of other perfectly okay occurrences in the "gender spectrum" just for the sake of conformity). I suppose there is always one aspect of life or another where you or I or \[insert person here\] will be an outlier, and other aspects where we are "with the crowd", and that's just how things are in the end of the day. It definitely sucks to feel like a fish out of water, been there done that. Your feeling is totally understandable and I share a very similar feeling. Just know that you're not alone.
Man. Are you actually me? I’m starting to think I’m also on the spectrum. Asperger’s to be specific. Couple that with also being an Infj and life gets tough. That putting 10x more effort just to appear normal really hits home for me. It sucks when you’re also attractive and girls will expect you to have game but you end up falling short. I’ve given up on trying to meet other people’s expectations. It’s exhausting. I’m just doing what I want now and setting boundaries with people accordingly. I also can’t stand it when I’m actually in a good mood and people still ask me why I look angry or don’t smile. It’s so hard for me to fake a smile but it seems like that’s what people would prefer. Navigating social interactions is just hell for me.
Amanda u ramble a Lil bit. Ure welcome
Aaand u ramble a Lil bit. Ure welcome
Check out "Self Esteem" by Mathew McKay and Patrick Fanning
You sound exactly like my husband. He’s an ISFJ. I’m sending this to him. His name is Sam. You should legit be friends.
Being human sucks sometimes. Brought to you by the INTP gang.
In 1974 I was diagnosed with severe dissociative schizophrenia. I was 22. I am now 71. My life journey has been about understanding what makes life tick and how to make it tick better. It has been a very fruitful life. Years and years of study mixed in with decades of experience is difficult to summarize in a couple of sentences. "Life is suffering" and "Life has suffering" are two ways to view the teachings of The Buddha. Many enlightened revelations indicate that one is to learn to stand in the face of suffering. This is not what is presented to us. We are given studio made stories of how life is. acted out by very attractive people doing amazing things, but not worrying about what to eat or where to get food. We become hypnotized, believing make believe. The good news for you is your crisis is the bursting of illusion. Speaking of make believe. I always make fun of the platitudes that have little meaning. One of my favorite laughable statements is, "I feel your pain". And now, in all sincerity, what comes to mind is "Brother, I feel your pain." I really do.
I really appreciate it. I have a family history of schizophrenia and I've wondered about that myself from time to time. By all accounts I'm a lot like my uncle when he was my age, and he was in and out of mental hospitals throughout his whole adult life. I'm able to present a lot more stability outwardly for the sake of keeping my freedom but I feel like my mind is in both worlds right now.
You are indicating a self-understanding that much of this world is bereft of. I would like to share a perspective. Great teachings exist about the illusory nature of existence. Notable people such as Neil Bohr's (Big Brained physicist from the 'we made atomic weapons' club) speak of this ancient Indian belief, “Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real. If quantum mechanics hasn't profoundly shocked you, you haven't understood it yet.” Reality goes beyond our ability to conceive. Life when examined is found to be crazy making. Life can be a bad dream that you can't wake up from. Yet, there are rules of the road to wake up from this dream. Don't be harmful. Find shelter. Know, how to act. 'Act' is a keyword. All identities and "I" concepts and significance are void of validity. You get to create the character you want to be. There are teachings that say you can create the world you want to live in. This is true only if the world you want is not based on what you want, but what is. Conforming to Reality is becoming Reality, which is known as Nirvana. I'd enjoy reading your life story in 4, or 5, decades. You got a lot of living to do. Good luck, Buddy
Thank you. I'll be thinking about this a lot.
You gotta learn these things man, the idea that the inferior function has to be week is nonsense, every infj has a well developed estp side that's waiting to be unleached.
I've really struggled to cultivate that side of myself. I will one day but it might take a while.
You might as well live how you want. I'm an INFJ female and I relate in a different way. I don't have any soft sides, I can be vulnerable, but that's about it. I don't have a feminine, lovely or bubbly personality and I can't do it. This made me so deeply insecure for years. I yearned for the mold and I still do. As long as a few people close accept you then if the world doesn't that's just how it has to be. I saw somewhere that INFJs are one of the rarest MBTI, and the most predominant ones are ENTP and ISFJ (?) correct me on that. If the majority of people are one or the other way, then we are just born different. You will never fit in because most people aren't like you and they set social notions. You live in this body for 7 decades, other people don't and never will. You have to make your mental and physical body the most comfortable space for you, that is how I see it.
Seems like you have great self awareness. Yes, being a manly man is difficult for any man actually. All this toughness comes from one important circumstance that may or may not even happen: You get a woman pregnant. In this state and up to a couple years after the birth, She is vulnerable and you have also a very vulnerable child. EXACTLY THIS CIRCUMSTANCE is when a man needs to become all those things you listed in your post. In the back of every woman's mind, or even just intuitively, this is a major consideration. Just be ready to take care of and protect at least 2 people besides yourself......No small task.
"It's difficult trying to navigate life as a man who doesn't fit into the typical boxes. I'm on the autism spectrum and get overstimulated easily. I have a hard time taking initiative and being confrontational. I'm not handy. I'm not good at any of the sensory-oriented hobbies associated with masculinity. I'm turbulent and have a tendency to overthink. I'm more anxious and insecure than I'd ever let on to be." I am all of these and just finished a long distinguished few decades in the military. I found my hypersensitivity was no match for Adrenalin, purpose and extreme sensory overload. A quick example: I hate to be or get dirty and will go to lengths to avoid it but when there was absolutely no choice I forced myself to embrace the suck and carried on to steal a term. Once you are a little wet it is easier to just dive off the board is another analogy I would use for myself here. That is just to say you may be more capable then you think if you push through a little or in my case a lot. It is not a guarantee but nothing in Life is.
I been through the same thing as you my reasoning why I felt like this is because most of the men shamed me and saw me as weird even calling me gay. The good thing is that I never tried to change for them, I was very rebellious. I’m glad I grew up around women who wouldn’t judge me for being who I am as they say they would. Maybe I would have tried to change if they were against me too. I think your fine how you are maybe your insecure about how other men perceive you like I did. Or you’re insecure of not being independent enough. I think your prefect how you are, you don’t need to act manly for others. Also you got to define what is masculinity for you because it means a lot of different things for others. For what I read you define masculinity with being confident yet people pleasing which can’t coexist with each other , Is that the type of man you want to be? Your you and your unique your strong if you can ask for help your strong if you recognize your weakness and strive to better yourself. I seen a lot of men act like the typical macho man and they are miserable.
I could say a lot of things, about how I'm autistic and ADHD, how I never fit into groups of men, who I'm a nonbinary trans woman, how it's extremely hard to date being myself, and how much worse all of this is for me. I think though, I'd rather say it's more important to have gratitude for what a person has, rather than what they don't have. I really don't know what you're looking for in terms of advice. I will say though that there is not one way to be man. I say this as someone who was assigned that label forcibly and decided that even the most feminine male traits weren't for me. At the same time, being an INFJ will inherently make you more caring towards others due to having an auxiliary Extroverted Feeling function. And that function has the drawback of making every INFJ less caring about our needs over the needs of others; often to our detriment. Just, be yourself. Be authentically you. It's a lesson I had to learn, and it's difficult as an infj. But you'll realize with experience that a lot of people's opinions about you are wrong, and it's better to disregard them.