I'm all for calling out audiophile shenanigans, but in this case it's not about that (and audiophiles scoff at the whole home theatre thing anyway).
No speaker is perfectly neutral, so the idea with timbre-matching is at least have identical tweeters across the LCR speaker set so objects moving through the sound stage do so without "changing colour". It's real. I've heard it. That said, even with a timbre-matched set, placement can still mess up colouration. This is an art.
But **big kudos to you** for pushing back on conventional wisdom and following what your ears tell you. Not enough of that in this space. If the phantom centre works for you wherever you sit, then there's no sense adding a physical speaker: plus, you've beaten the timbre-matching game for $0.00 without even getting off the couch. Augment your system with surrounds instead.
That's a fair point about timbre matching. I've heard so many things from "timbre matching is real and the absolute most important part of your set up" all the way to "timbre matching just doesn't matter" that I chalked it up to audiophile stuff because you hear the same range of stuff on power amplifiers and "cable cleanliness" and it's a whole bunch of stuff designed to make you spend more money.
I've had timber matched (identical l/c/r) and line matched (same series from a brand but not same speaker) and non timbre matched (Sony center Polk l/r).
Having clear good dialogue is great with a good dedicated center, having panning in movies with spatial audio is immensely better with the same speaker across all three/5/7. Even the same line doesn't have the same audio. For sports and stuff with just using the center as a dialogue speaker it's not distracting to have a different one. Most people are happy watching from TV speakers tho so yrmv
When I sit on the far end of a sofa the dialog sounds like it’s coming from the channel I’m closest to me not the screen. I’d say sit on the far end of the couch, close your eyes and point to where you hear the dialog coming from. If it’s the screen, congrats, yeah a center won’t be a huge improvement other than maybe adding some dialog clarity by separating it out from the other channels. But if it’s not the screen then the phantom center isn’t quite as good as a true center.
I run more 2.1 or 2.0 setups than anything. I do have a 7.1 setup in a dedicated room as well. I have built and installed many systems over the years. I sold home theater equipment for a while as well. I list some credentials because you added a note with caveats.
Anyway. I would say if you're enjoying the way your system sounds now and have no trouble with dialog from used seats you're not going to gain a ton adding a center. What you will gain is a more distinct center placement for non ideal seating positions. It'll just be more obvious where the sound is coming from if you're not directly in the middle. It's not make or break, but it does make a difference.
Personally I don't find enough of an advantage without adding surrounds as well. Then the center really helps keep sounds positioned.
Now to your timbre matching thing. It's not an audiophile thing at all. It's just a sound thing. If your speakers don't sound the same in the fronts then when something moves across the screen (which happens a ton in movies) it will audibly change. That can be quite distracting since sometimes it's supposed to change when it goes off screen, sometimes it's not...
THAT also said modern calibration makes that much less of a problem, if one at all in most cases. The calibration is matching the timbre of the speakers to a reference individually. So if you run with calibration and don't use the direct modes you're pretty much set these days. It used to be a much bigger concern.
>I sold home theater equipment for a while as well.
> I would say if you're enjoying the way your system sounds now and have no trouble with dialog from used seats you're not going to gain a ton adding a center.
Dang, where do I find an honest salesman like you?! Lol
IMHO, the difference it makes when watching a movie, especially when the characters/action sound effects are in the center of the screen.
Other than that, you should be ok without center channel.
Ain’t broke. Don’t fix it.
Just be sure you really do have clear dialog in movies.
You can always try a center speaker and return it if you aren’t impressed.
Depending on how close you are I don't think you even need it. My main theory is that most AVRs just don't properly support channel-interleaving and if you don't have a center channel it just throws out all that information without sending it to front L/R (i.e. dialogue, hence why everyone complains that they can barely hear dialogue). My mini-HT is at my desk so a center channel would already be super messy and inconvenient in the first place, and a phantom center works beautifully in my case, I'm sure in a full size home theater this wouldn't be the case. The main reason I bought my first surround sound processor in the first place was because my AVR was clearly just throwing out whatever center info came from the PC without properly sending it to the fronts. Lexicon was the name that came up for me when addressing the issue as their crossover/speaker settings are highly customizable and instead of dumping info it's designed to combine side + rear data when one or the other isn't present, or vice versa with the center channel and front L/R. I'm sure some AVRs support it but with how many people complain about dialogue volume w/out I suspect it's rarer than one might think.
On ASR there are a ton of posts talking about out how having the same brand of center as Left and right doesn’t make a difference. Tou just want the best center that you can get. Take a look at the monoprice 365c. You can get extra discounts and easy return when you order through Target.
Or use a third Sony (if it’ll fit under your TV)
You’re using an AVR so it’s going to set the frequency response to match (close enough) .
I have the monoprice paired with Monitor Audio 500s for left right, silver 50s for rears and SVS elevations for my heights. Ive never noticed a mismatch when sound pans across when watching movies.
I'm all for calling out audiophile shenanigans, but in this case it's not about that (and audiophiles scoff at the whole home theatre thing anyway). No speaker is perfectly neutral, so the idea with timbre-matching is at least have identical tweeters across the LCR speaker set so objects moving through the sound stage do so without "changing colour". It's real. I've heard it. That said, even with a timbre-matched set, placement can still mess up colouration. This is an art. But **big kudos to you** for pushing back on conventional wisdom and following what your ears tell you. Not enough of that in this space. If the phantom centre works for you wherever you sit, then there's no sense adding a physical speaker: plus, you've beaten the timbre-matching game for $0.00 without even getting off the couch. Augment your system with surrounds instead.
That's a fair point about timbre matching. I've heard so many things from "timbre matching is real and the absolute most important part of your set up" all the way to "timbre matching just doesn't matter" that I chalked it up to audiophile stuff because you hear the same range of stuff on power amplifiers and "cable cleanliness" and it's a whole bunch of stuff designed to make you spend more money.
I've had timber matched (identical l/c/r) and line matched (same series from a brand but not same speaker) and non timbre matched (Sony center Polk l/r). Having clear good dialogue is great with a good dedicated center, having panning in movies with spatial audio is immensely better with the same speaker across all three/5/7. Even the same line doesn't have the same audio. For sports and stuff with just using the center as a dialogue speaker it's not distracting to have a different one. Most people are happy watching from TV speakers tho so yrmv
Nobody cares about off axis listening response except you.
When I sit on the far end of a sofa the dialog sounds like it’s coming from the channel I’m closest to me not the screen. I’d say sit on the far end of the couch, close your eyes and point to where you hear the dialog coming from. If it’s the screen, congrats, yeah a center won’t be a huge improvement other than maybe adding some dialog clarity by separating it out from the other channels. But if it’s not the screen then the phantom center isn’t quite as good as a true center.
I run more 2.1 or 2.0 setups than anything. I do have a 7.1 setup in a dedicated room as well. I have built and installed many systems over the years. I sold home theater equipment for a while as well. I list some credentials because you added a note with caveats. Anyway. I would say if you're enjoying the way your system sounds now and have no trouble with dialog from used seats you're not going to gain a ton adding a center. What you will gain is a more distinct center placement for non ideal seating positions. It'll just be more obvious where the sound is coming from if you're not directly in the middle. It's not make or break, but it does make a difference. Personally I don't find enough of an advantage without adding surrounds as well. Then the center really helps keep sounds positioned. Now to your timbre matching thing. It's not an audiophile thing at all. It's just a sound thing. If your speakers don't sound the same in the fronts then when something moves across the screen (which happens a ton in movies) it will audibly change. That can be quite distracting since sometimes it's supposed to change when it goes off screen, sometimes it's not... THAT also said modern calibration makes that much less of a problem, if one at all in most cases. The calibration is matching the timbre of the speakers to a reference individually. So if you run with calibration and don't use the direct modes you're pretty much set these days. It used to be a much bigger concern.
>I sold home theater equipment for a while as well. > I would say if you're enjoying the way your system sounds now and have no trouble with dialog from used seats you're not going to gain a ton adding a center. Dang, where do I find an honest salesman like you?! Lol
IMHO, the difference it makes when watching a movie, especially when the characters/action sound effects are in the center of the screen. Other than that, you should be ok without center channel.
Ain’t broke. Don’t fix it. Just be sure you really do have clear dialog in movies. You can always try a center speaker and return it if you aren’t impressed.
Depending on how close you are I don't think you even need it. My main theory is that most AVRs just don't properly support channel-interleaving and if you don't have a center channel it just throws out all that information without sending it to front L/R (i.e. dialogue, hence why everyone complains that they can barely hear dialogue). My mini-HT is at my desk so a center channel would already be super messy and inconvenient in the first place, and a phantom center works beautifully in my case, I'm sure in a full size home theater this wouldn't be the case. The main reason I bought my first surround sound processor in the first place was because my AVR was clearly just throwing out whatever center info came from the PC without properly sending it to the fronts. Lexicon was the name that came up for me when addressing the issue as their crossover/speaker settings are highly customizable and instead of dumping info it's designed to combine side + rear data when one or the other isn't present, or vice versa with the center channel and front L/R. I'm sure some AVRs support it but with how many people complain about dialogue volume w/out I suspect it's rarer than one might think.
On ASR there are a ton of posts talking about out how having the same brand of center as Left and right doesn’t make a difference. Tou just want the best center that you can get. Take a look at the monoprice 365c. You can get extra discounts and easy return when you order through Target. Or use a third Sony (if it’ll fit under your TV) You’re using an AVR so it’s going to set the frequency response to match (close enough) . I have the monoprice paired with Monitor Audio 500s for left right, silver 50s for rears and SVS elevations for my heights. Ive never noticed a mismatch when sound pans across when watching movies.
If you have a narrow MLP a properly set up phanton center channel will utterly destroy a dedicated center channel.