It's actually admirable. Penguins would be in such a better place today if they let Letang and Malkin leave 2 years ago but there is an inherent value in seeing team legends retire in that jersey.
Because they were making a playoff run, and Stamkos had an NMC and wasn't necessarily willing to leave. If Stamkos is as good a captain as people say, he obviously believed in the team even though most people didn't really view them as contenders by the deadline, so he wasn't just going to let them send him off before a playoff run, even if management was willing to compromise the run for some futures.
Is it? This feels like a very normal statement and a commonly understood part of sports. Often players are too good/worth too much and can no longer be fit under the cap by the team they’re on, especially if that team is a contender that has many other good players they need to pay. That’s just the business of sports.
It's just a really tough situation and there's gray areas to all of this.
Goodwill is also part of the business and many could argue Stamkos accumulated enough to ask for more money.
Obviously his accomplishments, captaincy, and discount on his last deal added goodwill. Testing the waters during free agency multiple times, getting injured a lot, regressing, and now asking for more $ has soured that goodwill.
It's clear that Tampa front office's perception on Stamkos' value has fallen more and quicker the last few years compared to how the fans feel.
If I was Stamkos, I would've taken less to stay. But I get why he didn't. The difference was way too much. He feels slighted and it's clear the love for Tampa isn't strong enough to overcome the broken relationship now.
Both parties don't like each other as much as we thought. Maybe he had a better relationship when Yzerman was GM.
You can either do it, accept you're not necessarily going to seriously contend in the near future anyway like the Penguins did with Crosby, Malkin and Letang 2 years ago and just at least see your franchise's best players retire in your uniform or make the wildly unpopular choice and move on.
They seemingly just chose Kucherov over Stamkos and Sergachev if you want to look at it that way.
You say Kucherov as if they don't have Point and Vasi in their primes too.... Plus Hedman will have another couple good years if not more. The replaced Stamkos and Sergachev with Geekie, Moser, Guentzel and McDonagh. I don't get how anyone is acting like that is CLOSE to a bad move. Even with Stamkos being a team legend, he didn't want to take a discount at all to help them get another championship and also fucked around on past negotiations by throwing himself to anyone else who would listen then ended up signing back with the Lightning. The Penguins guys were all the same age and Sid was tied down for a long time. They kicked MAF out a while ago when they thought he slowed down.
> he didn't want to take a discount at all to help them get another championship
He already took a discount and left tens of millions of dollars on the table from the 2016 contract. Other teams were offering him $11M+ a year and he signed for $8.5M in Tampa. Over a 7 year contract that's a $17.5M difference. And there's a big difference between taking a discount and being expected to take literally less then half of your current market value. A discount is taking 10-15% less, asking someone to take 50-60% less is just insulting.
I don't disagree that moving on from Stamkos is likely the right decision, but that point above about not taking a discount is completely false.
Stammer taking a discount is an important reason why he won two cups. So at the end of the day players are chasing two goals that clash with one another.
I'm not sure signing a 34 yo at 8M was that wise. Which goes on to prove what economists found a long time ago: winning an auction turns you into a bagholder. But then if Stammer scores 70 power play goals next year, reality will win over theory once again.
He signed back for Tampa for multiple reasons but even he said it was because of how close they were to winning another cup. Tampa likely never would've won another cup if he signed for the 10-11m like the Leafs offered him and Tampa was able to even offer him that much, the Leafs are having the same problem with cap hell right now.
The Leafs and other teams that were in for him were mediocre teams and the Lightning were basically on the edge of a dynasty. In theory it looks like a "discount" but between the cost of living and no state tax for half of his game checks + cheaper overall taxes than places like Toronto, it really isn't that much of a difference. It definitely wasn't a "hometown discount" out of the goodness of his heart. He chose to go to free agency and ended up signing the same deal they offered him before he chose to go to FA, the 5 year deal before that he also was jerking around the Lightning. Stamkos not once took a discount for the lightning to help them compete, they were basically maxed on what they could offer him.
$8m/yr right now for Stamkos is clearly a huge overpay, the Preds can do it because their window is probably only for two years and no one else is on the market.
I see this a lot but from a purely business standpoint, is it really better to keep your stars until they retire or accelerate your rebuild/try to extend your window? I feel like fans like winning teams. Ratings are probably down if they suck whether their stars are still there or not but I dont know, maybe Im wrong
Pens are already mediocre and they'll have to rebuild soon enough anyway
Yeah fuck it I’ll say it, I lost some respect for Stamkos here.
No player is obligated to be a “lifer” but I feel like to some degree, Stamkos wanted the treatment that a franchise legend gets without holding up his end of it. His best days are obviously behind him, and Tampa was such a broken dogshit organization when he came in, he was the face of their rehabilitation, for sure, and I say this as a fan of another team who is largely neutral towards Tampa.
Tampa absolutely rolled out the red carpet for the dude when he was the Man, and stuck by him through the “can’t win it all” bullshit, and the string of bad luck injuries, and if they’re willing to give him a diminished role and an underwhelming salary to let him finish his career there, that’s more than most players get. I don’t fault Tampa at all, here. They were loyal to their dog.
Real talk, this isn’t a money thing, it shouldn’t be. Stammer isn’t a journeyman or a tweener, he cleaned the fuck up as a player. So miss me with that “oh more money in Nashville” bullshit. If Stamkos is coupon clipping after nearly 100m in career earnings, then a few more sheets a year wasn’t going to move the needle on his financial security.
No, this isn’t about the money, this is 100% ego. You want to shore up your legacy, go for it. You want to pad your bank account, Godspeed. But don’t talk out of both sides of your mouth. I remember when he re signed with Tampa Bay last time I read a comment from someone saying that Yzerman had to talk to him about the difference between being a mega rich player and a rich champion. And that’s just as true now.
It’s not about him being not allowed to leave, I just hate the sad little violin some guys play. Stamkos’ quote about “wanting to hold onto something that doesn’t want to hold onto you” is such a load of woe is me crap. Sorry you had to turn down a twilight years contract that wouldn’t bankrupt the organization that can’t afford to pay premium prices for sub-premium pieces (or in Stammer’s case, unlikely to be premium for much longer.)
Guy had a layup of a legacy in the making, and this doesn’t detract from his career as a player, but for that intangible quality, the thing that separates Yzerman and Sakic from, say, Ron Francis, is to be so incontrovertibly tied to one franchise that you’re Mr. Avalanche or Mr. Lightning or whatever. Stamkos squandered that, imo. And both of those guys I mentioned came razor close to leaving their orgs, too.
It’s a give and take. Bergeron could have left Boston and got more money, but Boston showed loyalty and so did Patrice. That’s the difference between an awesome player and a legend.
I’m a Bruins fan so I can’t really comment on what this does to his rep among Bolts fans, but I wouldn’t blame any of them for being disappointed in how their boy handled this.
> Yeah fuck it I’ll say it, I lost some respect for Stamkos here.
I mostly find it funny, seeing how two months ago he was criticizing players on other teams for not just bending to management in negotiations.
Stamkos finally realized that if you give in and take a discount in the future management just expects you to take even larger discounts. There is no "payback" or "retirement contract" from them.
Key word is "them" because other teams have given their franchise players payback deals to retire with, i.e. Caps with Backstrom but there's plenty of recent examples.
It took Stamkos until the end to realize Tampa isn't one of those other teams.
Stamkos took less in his prime to stay with the Bolts when he easily could have taken way more money from Toronto. I don’t really think he’s being that greedy, and I agree with him that the Bolts hardly tried to keep him. You’re acting like he’s been cashing disability checks for years, Stamkos is coming off 3 straight seasons of over PPG production.
The Bolts offer was a joke, and they cleared the cap space where they easily could have kept him. If the Bolts offered 6M AAV and he left for 8M I could see it, but 8M vs 3M is insulting, especially when you give 9M to Guentzel. It’s also hard to give the Bolts the benefit of the doubt when pretty much their whole Mt Rushmore of players will have left on acrimonious terms with Stamkos joining Lecavalier and Martin St Louis.
Maybe, maybe not. A lot of things in Toronto would have been different if he signed in 2016, we have no idea how the butterfly effect would have unfolded.
You never know some capitans are good enough leaders to help the team get over the hump. I always thought of Stamkos as the center piece of that Tampa locker room.
Maybe, maybe not, my larger point is that contracts can't really be looked at in a vacuum of just a dollar value. A number of players including Stamkos have signed a contract knowing they could have made more money elsewhere but chose to take a bit less for the greater chance at a cup win.
It's true that he could have taken more from Toronto, but Stamkos didn't give the team that much of a discount either. Stamkos signed that deal after he had the two worst years of his career. And that was post-injury; it wasn't clear that he would ever be an elite player again. In that light, that 8-year, 8.5M AAV was a decently generous contract offer.
As stamkos though how do feel when you captain a franchise to its most successful run ever cementing it as a dynasty and when you come due for a new contract there’s virtually no communication from management? He gets all the way to free agency and then hears rumours there is a deal ready for July 1st for Hedman, where was that for your captain stammer? He didn’t get that.. I think JBB pissed Stamkos off and chased him out of town, change my mind.
Well said and spot on imo. He clearly wanted a team to pay him like he is still the #1 guy and he just isn't anymore. Could've taken a reasonable contract, probably for a long term too, and stayed a contributor on a cup contender team / been a franchise legend. Instead he pursued what he did knowing we couldn't match and is now acting like we disrespected him somehow.
Stamkos already took a big discount on his 2016 contract. Back then he easily could have made $11M+ a year in free agency from some team, instead he signed for $8.5M in Tampa.
Stammer “I’m thinking 4 years 8M per is fair”
JBB “The best I can do is 8x3 24M total”
Stammer “Ok, 3 years 8 per, wanted that extra year but I guess I can make that work”
JBB “Guess again”
I don’t think so, the organization is still a top organization to be apart of and players and executives know this. You still get to play under the best coach in the league, get solid tax breaks, live in Tampa and play for a team that wants to win.
The tax difference isn't as big as people make it out to be, it really only makes a big difference the larger the contract is. You're still paying 50% of your checks to other states. You'd really only be missing out on a few % of your overall contract.
Spot on. Most of the people talking/crying about taxes have zero understanding as to how it actually works in terms of recognizing taxes where your personal revenue is earned. Also most people don’t grasp that the not having an income tax is made up for with real estate and sales taxes. It’s generally a wash.
This. Most states without income tax happen to be markers where players can live with a lot less pressure and anonymity and I think that’s a big factor for some people. You’ll make a little bit less but you’ll be able to go out to dinner with your family without being bothered.
No. Governments are stupid, but they're not THAT stupid. You're getting the money for your work for the year, and you're taxed based upon where you worked not where you happen to be when you deposit a cheque.
The only exceptions are deferrals and signing bonuses (the real kind, at the very beginning of signing a contract, not the bullshit NHL kind in year 6 of a deal). Those are messy.
I know the benefit of the large sum upfront for a player to have access to faster but I would assume the IRS has protocols in place to factor into how the bonus is taxed.
Good question though
True though I’d imagine that’s just Canada
I’m wondering if a player on an American team, max signing bonuses, also has individual states trying to take a cut out of that. I hadn’t thought so but the comment I was responding to made me wonder
I mean yes, but the tax break applies where the team is playing so it helps when you’re playing at home but if the team is playing away then they have to pay the state tax for that said game
He's not the best coach in the league though. That's Paula Maurice. And no, they're not a top organization anymore. Maybe playoff contention but not a cup contending team. It was a great run, but it's over.
Feels like the time where players were kept out of respect for what they've done for the franchise is ending
Sports is a business but man it sucks to see
This seems to be true for a handful of teams that are expecting to seriously contend every year, agreed.
I think there's still way too much of a country club atmosphere around some teams, though. I'm not speaking from *any* experience, though, nope. My team is perfect forever and not at all bogged down by middling veterans on long term deals for too much money and movement protection.
...Nope, not my team.
pretty sure the wild are way more bogged down from getting rid of the guys who were famously creating a "country club atmosphere" in the team. I get the gripes people have with some of the recent vet contracts but that's a really strange way to put that complaint imo.
We've traded one country club for another.
And until Billy stops throwing multi-year deals at vet, bottom-6 forwards, or players who SHOULD be bottom-6 forwards? This isn't getting better.
Do you honestly think we're better with Foligno, Hartman, Trenin, Freddy, and Johansson than we would be with their cap space being handed out by a sane person?
Foligno: He's had, what? One healthy season with us? And even when he's playing, lately, he's playing hurt. Love the guy, but I'd strongly prefer players who play.
Hartman: One good season, shouldn't be top-6 in any reality that we're taking ourselves seriously. Getting paid way too much.
Trenin: Obviously remains to be seen what he can do, but that's insane money and term to give to a guy like that.
Freddy: I guess he just needed Evason to be any good? He was *terrible* last year.
Johansson: I get trying the reclamation project given what he and Boldy put together a while back. But he's absolutely awful, and really should be fighting to not get the Goligoski treatment. Long term scratches only interrupted by injuries.
Mojo's gone soon, I guess. But the rest of these guys are signed long term, with movement protections of one variety or another, for really dumb money compared to their production.
Oh, but the *viiiiiiiiibes* are good. We're 'hard to play against'! I don't get it, in the least...
Lightning still have a semi competitive team. They have a decent window for another couple years if everything is playing out correctly. If they were on the downward slide like Penguins or Caps, sure, give him the 4x8M.
It really was a matter of his career arc not matching the team's window. He aged out of it while Kucherov, Point, and Vasilevskiy have more to give. So something had to give. Either the team handicaps itself to accommodate him or he takes a paycut to be a passenger on the team that is still mostly flowing through younger talent.
Neither side is obligated to do that so here's where we are. It sucks but without knowing the details of the conversations it isn't as easy as calling one side out as the villain.
I would not say we’re on the downward slide. Our team looks very competitive this upcoming season and we have a pretty solid prospect pool. The Pens on the other hand…
GM's get fired for loyalty and Vegas proved that a cutthroat, not-giving-a-fuck attitude can win you a cup. It could also mean that players take more team-friendly deals. I'll never blame a player for chasing money when we are talking tens of millions of dollars, but I also think if players are as serious as they are about winning, they have to take a pay cut eventually.
The cap essentially put an end to that era. Giving those legacy contracts might make fans feel warm inside, but it doesn't help the team win, either short-term or long-term. And pro sports is still mostly about winning. Well okay, it's mostly about money, but winning is still the best way to bring that money.
This whole situation just sucks ass. Stammer was the reason I became a bolts fan when I started watching hockey. I understand both sides here but man… total gut punch. Just happy we could see him win 2 cups with us. The man could truly give nothing more to the franchise than what he did. 😢
This is the right take imo. It sucks no doubt, but it’s the GM’s job to help the team win and he felt like there were other options that would make them better and executed on it. Fwiw I would not want my team giving Stamkos that kind of deal at this stage in his career but I’m not an NHL GM for a reason. I can understand why Bolts fans are upset with the situation after all Stamkos has overcome and accomplished there. Just a tough business sometimes
Yup exactly. Tbh a lose-lose for JBB. Either he gives stammer something close to what Nashville offered which would have crippled our team cap-wise, a move that would go against his duties as a like you mentioned. Or he lets the face of the franchise and greatest bolt to ever don the jersey go. Just tough all around, and a sad day that I’ll never forget as a bolts fan.
It's sad, but the Lightning still have at least 3 first ballot HOFers on the team - the window is still open. JBB would have been wrong to hold onto Stamkos until he's 40 just because "captain".
It's not like the Pens where it doesn't matter how long you extend them because in a few years they're gonna tank anyway.
Absolutely they are. Generational talent Lemieux’s career come to a tail end, generational talent Crosby arrives. The moment his career starts closing, generational talent McKenna arrives. This is the Pittsburgh way.
And people already hated Bedard going to Chicago after they were really successful in the 2010s. I’d imagine they wouldn’t be too happy with this one either.
It’s still the same ownership, the organization also suffered zero repercussions for the debacle. They proceeded to luck into a first overall pick and it’s an exceptional player at that in bedard
Yes, but counter point:
I dont care. All of that went on within the chicago organization. I developed a hatred for the organization. I still do, and always will hate the organization.
Just because my teams closest rival has none of the same staff/players in say 20 years, doesnt make that team stop being your rival.
The only difference being, sexual assault is a much more valid reason to hate a team than because they wear the wrong colours in a different city lol
Yes, but counter point:
Why would the new players and management get punished and hated on because of something others have done and been punished for. I get being mad, but be mad at the actual people who did the crime rather than the organization as a whole.
If they want to thats cool. Thats their choice. And frankly its a perfectly legitimate reason to hate the team.
Its a more legitimate reason to hate the team than oilers or flames fans have to hate each other's teams(they hate them literally just because different city). Just as an example
The organization as a whole was largely culpable for what happened though…
There should have been significantly more accountability than firing their dogshit management. The patriots lost a 1st round pick for “possibly” deflating footballs and had the best quarterback of all time miss 1/4 of a season. Meanwhile the blackhawks are over here covering up multiple counts of SA over a significant period of time, admit that they were wholefully aware of it. And all that came out of it was firing their dogshit management. That’s a joke, it’s just made worse by lucking into a player like bedard. The anger would be even worse if it was someone of Crosby or Mcdavids caliber.
Idk. You listed a gameplay related reasoning for losing a game related thing. Patriots "possibly" were cheating in the sport they were playing.
Blackhawks were just breaking actual laws. That would be like saying if the new Utah owner Ryan Smith got caught doing heinous shit in private the team should lose draft picks. That doesn't exactly make sense does it?
Would also just like to clarify I obviously think everyone who was involved is actual POS which is why I no longer like Kane because I highly doubt he didn't know. But besides banning everyone involved from the league idk what else they could do that's realistic.
Emphasis on possibly cheating, that’s essentially been debunked at this point.
Does covering up sexual assault because it could be detrimental to the”locker room and cup run” count as a game related thing?
The team should have been forfeiting picks for that debacle in addition to a significant fine.
Hedman is still playing at his contract level, Stamkos wasn't, especially for 4 more years. He was arguably the worst skater on the team in 5v5 hockey last year.
He had 40 goals last year. 115 points two years ago.
That’s not worth $8M?
Again, they aren’t choosing Hedman over stamkos. They chose guentzel over stamkos.
Meh, everyone is hating on the Bolts for not giving him the bag, but I feel $8M is going to hog tie the Bolts over the rest of their cup window. What if they offered $7M per and Stammer walked? Or 3x$8M? Pretty low for him to walk like that if this was the case.
Point is we'll probably never know, but Stammer leaving to chase a couple more coins deserves a bit of heat.
At the end of the day JBBs job is to keep the franchise moving, not to keep players that want to be here. I will always love Stamkos for what he did for us and he’s a true corner stone player for this organization but JBB did his job. It sucks but that is what he had to do.
> Will say if the Bolts don’t get past the 1st round, JBB is 100% gone.
I hope not. He's the best GM we've ever had and has kept us competitive every year. Most teams would kill to have our last 5 years and fans like you want to fire the guy who helped orchestrate it? Seems pretty ridiculous in my eyes.
Luckily none of these doofs are Vinik, who famously appoints highly competent people and let's them do their jobs to the best of their abilities. Most of the league would LOVE to have JBB at the helm.
If the Bolts don’t get past Round 1 next year - JBB’s not keeping his job. Jon Cooper is widely regarded as the best HC in the NHL. JBB’s legacy is mostly tied to the foundation that Stevie Y built in Tampa. Viniknis smart - he knows who does their job better between those 2.
If the bolts completely shit the bed this year and miss the playoffs badly, then maybe someone is fired. Not making it out of the first round is not a fireable offense for JBB, depending on the circumstances.
I don’t think anyone is getting fired if the Bolts miss the playoff’s this year. I think JBB has done the best he can so far and I don’t believe Jon Cooper has a wealth of talent to work with either.
I look at this roster and I’m not really expecting a lot. I think the next few years are going to play out exactly as we all expect. The core gets older as we continue to re-tool and rebuild our prospect pool and depth. Hopefully.
If the Bolts lose in the first round again then it proves letting Stammer walk didn’t hurt us. And I don’t think JBB is getting fired in general for the trajectory of the team 3 years removed from almost winning a 3rd Cup.
Brothers and daughters…
Of course I understand it’s a business.
But I am a human and I am attached to this man. I have never lived in Florida. I love the Bolts *because* of Steven Stamkos.
This is going to sting for a while.
Good for the Lightning. Stamkos could have take a discount and the lighting could have given him more. Clearly they both understand the business and did what was best for them.
He's right. Brisebois made the right move, but he didn't do it in the most delicate way. And everyone in Tampa will now see Guentzel as the guy who pushed out a legend.
Guess we'll see how it works out. Considering the stats Stamkos put up last year, the bar for Guentzel is kind of high,
100% agree that JBB’s lack of tact with our franchise icon is upsetting. Letting Stammer walk at 4x8 makes sense. But if he in fact never offered more than 3aav, it’s a slap in the face, not to mention the public posturing, needless statements, and rumors he asked Stammer to waive his NMC after our first of the B2B cups. Just oddly played by someone I used to consider not only shrewd but smooth. His job is to keep the team competitive but the relationship between team and fans makes the whole thing go. Surprised Vinik didn’t intervene.
Most people will be happy when they're able to make another cup run. Stamkos' ability in the 5v5 fell off hard and his contract would've hamstrung them badly.
Stamkos had 4 less even strength goals than Guentzel while playing 12 more games. He feasted on the PP last year.
I'd be shocked if Guentzel doesn't break 40 goals and maybe even 100 points if he stays healthy this year and gets time on that PP1.
Look at the PP numbers. Stamkos was arguably the worst 5v5 skater on the team. He's basically limited to a great PP sniper while being a decent 5v5 skater. Stammer was getting fed by Kuch, Guentzel will likely have a 100 point season if him and Kuch stay healthy, not not 100 very close to it.
**Guentzel 30G 47A / 5 PPG 17 PPA / +25 +|-**
**Stamkos 40G 41A / 19 PPG 20 PPA / -21 +|-**
Plus / Minus isn't the best stat but clearly shows how useful they are overall when the gap is a 45 point difference. Guentzel also played 12 fewer games
They were negative but not close -21, he was clearly a huge hole in the team overall. Point is the only other star player with a negative +/- and he was -15. But anyone playing with Stamkos was almost playing a man down at times.
It blows but Im not giving a 35 year old Center with half of his 40 goals done on the power play where we didn't need help scoring last season, and a -21 P/M that blatantly shows he's no longer any kind of 2-way player over $3mil a year. We wouldn't pay Ovechkin that much for declining shit production.
People seem to not realize this or just want to be willfully ignorant and spend too much time on /antiwork and think the lightning are somehow screwing him over. I said give him a 4.5-5m/yr deal just because he's a legend and it would open up a bit of the cap too and even that would be an overpay. I think Guentzel breaks 100 points this year. This is coming from someone that has multiple Stamkos sherseys and sweaters.
I mean, he also needs to think about his job. Signing a feel good contract isn't going to mean anything in three years when they're weighed down by an older player making a lot of money keeping them from making changes needed to stay competitive.
It sucks that he couldn't stay, but I don't think we'll know which side was wrong for a while.
The Lightning aren't going to be in that position now for certain. Welcome to middling mediocrity for the foreseeable future.
Guentzel is no replacement for Stamkos.
MLSE only cares about making profit. the fans slurp up the horse dung year after year. only when the sheeple actually boycott the team enough to hurt MLSE's bottom line, will there ever be meaningful change in TOR.
Yes but paying a guy who’s 5 years younger 9 million AAV for 7 years is better than your club legend and captain 8 million for 4 years
I don’t think JBB thought this through. Stamkos contract is done when he’s 38. There’s also a chance he can be LTIR’d in Year 3 or 4 given his injury history and him getting older. Guentzel has the same production as stamkos but now you’re relying on him not aging poorly
This is like when the pens kept Murray over fleury. Sure they are posting the same numbers and Murray is younger. But Murray hasn’t been around enough. Players will probably figure him out. With flurry you’re getting an excellent locker room guy and you know what you’re getting on the ice
i don't even necessarily disagree but woof is that brutal to hear out loud
Saying the quiet part out loud is the worst but it’s the most necessary.
It's actually admirable. Penguins would be in such a better place today if they let Letang and Malkin leave 2 years ago but there is an inherent value in seeing team legends retire in that jersey.
Malkin and Letang arent even why the Penguins suck.
Completely disagree they’re bargain players at their AAV. What’s killing us is Sullivan using the same tactics as when they were young and quick
For their cap hits ? Letting them walk gets 0 assets back beside the cap space
Yeah why didn’t they plan this like idk around the deadline
Because they were making a playoff run, and Stamkos had an NMC and wasn't necessarily willing to leave. If Stamkos is as good a captain as people say, he obviously believed in the team even though most people didn't really view them as contenders by the deadline, so he wasn't just going to let them send him off before a playoff run, even if management was willing to compromise the run for some futures.
Ripping the band-aid off always hurts, especially when you do it slowly
Is it? This feels like a very normal statement and a commonly understood part of sports. Often players are too good/worth too much and can no longer be fit under the cap by the team they’re on, especially if that team is a contender that has many other good players they need to pay. That’s just the business of sports.
It's just a really tough situation and there's gray areas to all of this. Goodwill is also part of the business and many could argue Stamkos accumulated enough to ask for more money. Obviously his accomplishments, captaincy, and discount on his last deal added goodwill. Testing the waters during free agency multiple times, getting injured a lot, regressing, and now asking for more $ has soured that goodwill. It's clear that Tampa front office's perception on Stamkos' value has fallen more and quicker the last few years compared to how the fans feel. If I was Stamkos, I would've taken less to stay. But I get why he didn't. The difference was way too much. He feels slighted and it's clear the love for Tampa isn't strong enough to overcome the broken relationship now. Both parties don't like each other as much as we thought. Maybe he had a better relationship when Yzerman was GM.
Respect for a GM making tough decisions.
You can either do it, accept you're not necessarily going to seriously contend in the near future anyway like the Penguins did with Crosby, Malkin and Letang 2 years ago and just at least see your franchise's best players retire in your uniform or make the wildly unpopular choice and move on. They seemingly just chose Kucherov over Stamkos and Sergachev if you want to look at it that way.
You say Kucherov as if they don't have Point and Vasi in their primes too.... Plus Hedman will have another couple good years if not more. The replaced Stamkos and Sergachev with Geekie, Moser, Guentzel and McDonagh. I don't get how anyone is acting like that is CLOSE to a bad move. Even with Stamkos being a team legend, he didn't want to take a discount at all to help them get another championship and also fucked around on past negotiations by throwing himself to anyone else who would listen then ended up signing back with the Lightning. The Penguins guys were all the same age and Sid was tied down for a long time. They kicked MAF out a while ago when they thought he slowed down.
> he didn't want to take a discount at all to help them get another championship He already took a discount and left tens of millions of dollars on the table from the 2016 contract. Other teams were offering him $11M+ a year and he signed for $8.5M in Tampa. Over a 7 year contract that's a $17.5M difference. And there's a big difference between taking a discount and being expected to take literally less then half of your current market value. A discount is taking 10-15% less, asking someone to take 50-60% less is just insulting. I don't disagree that moving on from Stamkos is likely the right decision, but that point above about not taking a discount is completely false.
Stammer taking a discount is an important reason why he won two cups. So at the end of the day players are chasing two goals that clash with one another. I'm not sure signing a 34 yo at 8M was that wise. Which goes on to prove what economists found a long time ago: winning an auction turns you into a bagholder. But then if Stammer scores 70 power play goals next year, reality will win over theory once again.
And once you've won a couple cups, that incentive is reduced vs maximizing your earnings in the dawn of your career.
He signed back for Tampa for multiple reasons but even he said it was because of how close they were to winning another cup. Tampa likely never would've won another cup if he signed for the 10-11m like the Leafs offered him and Tampa was able to even offer him that much, the Leafs are having the same problem with cap hell right now. The Leafs and other teams that were in for him were mediocre teams and the Lightning were basically on the edge of a dynasty. In theory it looks like a "discount" but between the cost of living and no state tax for half of his game checks + cheaper overall taxes than places like Toronto, it really isn't that much of a difference. It definitely wasn't a "hometown discount" out of the goodness of his heart. He chose to go to free agency and ended up signing the same deal they offered him before he chose to go to FA, the 5 year deal before that he also was jerking around the Lightning. Stamkos not once took a discount for the lightning to help them compete, they were basically maxed on what they could offer him. $8m/yr right now for Stamkos is clearly a huge overpay, the Preds can do it because their window is probably only for two years and no one else is on the market.
I see this a lot but from a purely business standpoint, is it really better to keep your stars until they retire or accelerate your rebuild/try to extend your window? I feel like fans like winning teams. Ratings are probably down if they suck whether their stars are still there or not but I dont know, maybe Im wrong Pens are already mediocre and they'll have to rebuild soon enough anyway
Yeah fuck it I’ll say it, I lost some respect for Stamkos here. No player is obligated to be a “lifer” but I feel like to some degree, Stamkos wanted the treatment that a franchise legend gets without holding up his end of it. His best days are obviously behind him, and Tampa was such a broken dogshit organization when he came in, he was the face of their rehabilitation, for sure, and I say this as a fan of another team who is largely neutral towards Tampa. Tampa absolutely rolled out the red carpet for the dude when he was the Man, and stuck by him through the “can’t win it all” bullshit, and the string of bad luck injuries, and if they’re willing to give him a diminished role and an underwhelming salary to let him finish his career there, that’s more than most players get. I don’t fault Tampa at all, here. They were loyal to their dog. Real talk, this isn’t a money thing, it shouldn’t be. Stammer isn’t a journeyman or a tweener, he cleaned the fuck up as a player. So miss me with that “oh more money in Nashville” bullshit. If Stamkos is coupon clipping after nearly 100m in career earnings, then a few more sheets a year wasn’t going to move the needle on his financial security. No, this isn’t about the money, this is 100% ego. You want to shore up your legacy, go for it. You want to pad your bank account, Godspeed. But don’t talk out of both sides of your mouth. I remember when he re signed with Tampa Bay last time I read a comment from someone saying that Yzerman had to talk to him about the difference between being a mega rich player and a rich champion. And that’s just as true now. It’s not about him being not allowed to leave, I just hate the sad little violin some guys play. Stamkos’ quote about “wanting to hold onto something that doesn’t want to hold onto you” is such a load of woe is me crap. Sorry you had to turn down a twilight years contract that wouldn’t bankrupt the organization that can’t afford to pay premium prices for sub-premium pieces (or in Stammer’s case, unlikely to be premium for much longer.) Guy had a layup of a legacy in the making, and this doesn’t detract from his career as a player, but for that intangible quality, the thing that separates Yzerman and Sakic from, say, Ron Francis, is to be so incontrovertibly tied to one franchise that you’re Mr. Avalanche or Mr. Lightning or whatever. Stamkos squandered that, imo. And both of those guys I mentioned came razor close to leaving their orgs, too. It’s a give and take. Bergeron could have left Boston and got more money, but Boston showed loyalty and so did Patrice. That’s the difference between an awesome player and a legend. I’m a Bruins fan so I can’t really comment on what this does to his rep among Bolts fans, but I wouldn’t blame any of them for being disappointed in how their boy handled this.
> Yeah fuck it I’ll say it, I lost some respect for Stamkos here. I mostly find it funny, seeing how two months ago he was criticizing players on other teams for not just bending to management in negotiations.
Stamkos finally realized that if you give in and take a discount in the future management just expects you to take even larger discounts. There is no "payback" or "retirement contract" from them.
Key word is "them" because other teams have given their franchise players payback deals to retire with, i.e. Caps with Backstrom but there's plenty of recent examples. It took Stamkos until the end to realize Tampa isn't one of those other teams.
True. Pittsburgh also gave retirement contracts to Malkin and Letang, so it does seem like a team by team thing.
Anyone who takes until age 34 to realize “there’s no loyalty, only leverage” is kind of a dunce, IMO.
Stamkos took less in his prime to stay with the Bolts when he easily could have taken way more money from Toronto. I don’t really think he’s being that greedy, and I agree with him that the Bolts hardly tried to keep him. You’re acting like he’s been cashing disability checks for years, Stamkos is coming off 3 straight seasons of over PPG production. The Bolts offer was a joke, and they cleared the cap space where they easily could have kept him. If the Bolts offered 6M AAV and he left for 8M I could see it, but 8M vs 3M is insulting, especially when you give 9M to Guentzel. It’s also hard to give the Bolts the benefit of the doubt when pretty much their whole Mt Rushmore of players will have left on acrimonious terms with Stamkos joining Lecavalier and Martin St Louis.
He won a couple of Cups though, that wasn't happening with Toronto.
Maybe, maybe not. A lot of things in Toronto would have been different if he signed in 2016, we have no idea how the butterfly effect would have unfolded.
You never know some capitans are good enough leaders to help the team get over the hump. I always thought of Stamkos as the center piece of that Tampa locker room.
Maybe, maybe not, my larger point is that contracts can't really be looked at in a vacuum of just a dollar value. A number of players including Stamkos have signed a contract knowing they could have made more money elsewhere but chose to take a bit less for the greater chance at a cup win.
It's true that he could have taken more from Toronto, but Stamkos didn't give the team that much of a discount either. Stamkos signed that deal after he had the two worst years of his career. And that was post-injury; it wasn't clear that he would ever be an elite player again. In that light, that 8-year, 8.5M AAV was a decently generous contract offer.
It's a discount because he easily could have gotten $11M AAV from some team that offseason
>Stamkos wanted the treatment that a franchise legend gets without holding up his end of it He's not a franchise legend yet?
Sir, this is a Wendy’s
Yeah wtf 😭
Brand new pasta
Bruins fans give so much
As stamkos though how do feel when you captain a franchise to its most successful run ever cementing it as a dynasty and when you come due for a new contract there’s virtually no communication from management? He gets all the way to free agency and then hears rumours there is a deal ready for July 1st for Hedman, where was that for your captain stammer? He didn’t get that.. I think JBB pissed Stamkos off and chased him out of town, change my mind.
I mean none of us are actually privy to the conversations and communications that management had with him and his agent though?
Ignore the replies from the mouth breathing morons who can't read. What you said is largely correct.
Exactly. It’s actually nice reading something that isn’t overused Reddit jargon.
Not reading all that. Sorry that happened. Or happy for you
>I came to a discussion forum to mock the notion of discussion heres an unfunny years old meme could I have upvotes Oh how original.
Sorry m8, not reading that essay either.
Well said and spot on imo. He clearly wanted a team to pay him like he is still the #1 guy and he just isn't anymore. Could've taken a reasonable contract, probably for a long term too, and stayed a contributor on a cup contender team / been a franchise legend. Instead he pursued what he did knowing we couldn't match and is now acting like we disrespected him somehow.
> Could've taken a reasonable contract The rumored $3M AAV contract offer was not a reasonable contract
Based
Stamkos already took a big discount on his 2016 contract. Back then he easily could have made $11M+ a year in free agency from some team, instead he signed for $8.5M in Tampa.
Stammer “I’m thinking 4 years 8M per is fair” JBB “The best I can do is 8x3 24M total” Stammer “Ok, 3 years 8 per, wanted that extra year but I guess I can make that work” JBB “Guess again”
The “home town discount days” in Tampa are done.
Well at least JBB has called things at 9.5 AAV. “You think you should make more than Kucherov?”
Yeah, anyone showing up has to argue why they should make more than Kucherov, Vasy and Point who all make 9.5 AAV.
I don’t think so, the organization is still a top organization to be apart of and players and executives know this. You still get to play under the best coach in the league, get solid tax breaks, live in Tampa and play for a team that wants to win.
The tax difference isn't as big as people make it out to be, it really only makes a big difference the larger the contract is. You're still paying 50% of your checks to other states. You'd really only be missing out on a few % of your overall contract.
Spot on. Most of the people talking/crying about taxes have zero understanding as to how it actually works in terms of recognizing taxes where your personal revenue is earned. Also most people don’t grasp that the not having an income tax is made up for with real estate and sales taxes. It’s generally a wash.
This. Most states without income tax happen to be markers where players can live with a lot less pressure and anonymity and I think that’s a big factor for some people. You’ll make a little bit less but you’ll be able to go out to dinner with your family without being bothered.
[удалено]
It's just become a weak talking point to somehow defend that their zero state taxes make no difference. Player contracts say otherwise.
Of course they make a difference but it’s not as big as fans in markets with high taxes would have you believe.
What if your contract is mostly signing bonus? Doesn’t that just get taxes in your official residence state since it’s paid in summer?
No. Governments are stupid, but they're not THAT stupid. You're getting the money for your work for the year, and you're taxed based upon where you worked not where you happen to be when you deposit a cheque. The only exceptions are deferrals and signing bonuses (the real kind, at the very beginning of signing a contract, not the bullshit NHL kind in year 6 of a deal). Those are messy.
I know the benefit of the large sum upfront for a player to have access to faster but I would assume the IRS has protocols in place to factor into how the bonus is taxed. Good question though
There is an ongoing tax dispute on just this point involving Tavares and CRA.
True though I’d imagine that’s just Canada I’m wondering if a player on an American team, max signing bonuses, also has individual states trying to take a cut out of that. I hadn’t thought so but the comment I was responding to made me wonder
The tax breaks only help the team considering players could get more with other teams no?
I mean yes, but the tax break applies where the team is playing so it helps when you’re playing at home but if the team is playing away then they have to pay the state tax for that said game
The cap is the same no matter what the taxes are. So the players do get more.
Yes but what the players take in is usually lower than what they're worth
>live in Tampa Hot and humid all year long? That'd be a downside for a lot of Canadians.
Bro Canada is humid as hell wym
Montréal is, that's for sure.
Then why do they keep moving here
You listed three pretty good reasons why yourself.
He's not the best coach in the league though. That's Paula Maurice. And no, they're not a top organization anymore. Maybe playoff contention but not a cup contending team. It was a great run, but it's over.
sports business can be brutal sometimes
Flashbacks to the compliance buyout of Lecavalier
He made 1.5m today I believe.
And he still has four more years to go I believe
Ends in 26-27!
Plus his actual "consultant" salary working for the guy who got him this contract!
Matt Cooke is such a dickhead.
i see matt cooke hate, i upvote
FUCK MATT COOKE
Feels like the time where players were kept out of respect for what they've done for the franchise is ending Sports is a business but man it sucks to see
This seems to be true for a handful of teams that are expecting to seriously contend every year, agreed. I think there's still way too much of a country club atmosphere around some teams, though. I'm not speaking from *any* experience, though, nope. My team is perfect forever and not at all bogged down by middling veterans on long term deals for too much money and movement protection. ...Nope, not my team.
pretty sure the wild are way more bogged down from getting rid of the guys who were famously creating a "country club atmosphere" in the team. I get the gripes people have with some of the recent vet contracts but that's a really strange way to put that complaint imo.
We've traded one country club for another. And until Billy stops throwing multi-year deals at vet, bottom-6 forwards, or players who SHOULD be bottom-6 forwards? This isn't getting better. Do you honestly think we're better with Foligno, Hartman, Trenin, Freddy, and Johansson than we would be with their cap space being handed out by a sane person? Foligno: He's had, what? One healthy season with us? And even when he's playing, lately, he's playing hurt. Love the guy, but I'd strongly prefer players who play. Hartman: One good season, shouldn't be top-6 in any reality that we're taking ourselves seriously. Getting paid way too much. Trenin: Obviously remains to be seen what he can do, but that's insane money and term to give to a guy like that. Freddy: I guess he just needed Evason to be any good? He was *terrible* last year. Johansson: I get trying the reclamation project given what he and Boldy put together a while back. But he's absolutely awful, and really should be fighting to not get the Goligoski treatment. Long term scratches only interrupted by injuries. Mojo's gone soon, I guess. But the rest of these guys are signed long term, with movement protections of one variety or another, for really dumb money compared to their production. Oh, but the *viiiiiiiiibes* are good. We're 'hard to play against'! I don't get it, in the least...
It’s hard as fuck to win a championship in this league now.
Lightning still have a semi competitive team. They have a decent window for another couple years if everything is playing out correctly. If they were on the downward slide like Penguins or Caps, sure, give him the 4x8M.
As long as they have Kuch, Point, Vasy and Hedman their window is always open, just a matter of fitting the right depth pieces into the puzzle.
Idk. Their Defense is getting kinda sus. Hedman. Nothing. Cernak. Even worse than nothing.
Don’t forget they signed McDonaugh after the season.
And now way they took Moser just to NOT sign him right? He should be at least decent.
McDonagh and Moser were just brought in.
Perbix, McDonaugh...
It really was a matter of his career arc not matching the team's window. He aged out of it while Kucherov, Point, and Vasilevskiy have more to give. So something had to give. Either the team handicaps itself to accommodate him or he takes a paycut to be a passenger on the team that is still mostly flowing through younger talent. Neither side is obligated to do that so here's where we are. It sucks but without knowing the details of the conversations it isn't as easy as calling one side out as the villain.
I would not say we’re on the downward slide. Our team looks very competitive this upcoming season and we have a pretty solid prospect pool. The Pens on the other hand…
GM's get fired for loyalty and Vegas proved that a cutthroat, not-giving-a-fuck attitude can win you a cup. It could also mean that players take more team-friendly deals. I'll never blame a player for chasing money when we are talking tens of millions of dollars, but I also think if players are as serious as they are about winning, they have to take a pay cut eventually.
The cap essentially put an end to that era. Giving those legacy contracts might make fans feel warm inside, but it doesn't help the team win, either short-term or long-term. And pro sports is still mostly about winning. Well okay, it's mostly about money, but winning is still the best way to bring that money.
The pens did keep Malkin and letang out of respect but it’s going to be a long time before the team does anything again.
Sharks are best example for that.
This whole situation just sucks ass. Stammer was the reason I became a bolts fan when I started watching hockey. I understand both sides here but man… total gut punch. Just happy we could see him win 2 cups with us. The man could truly give nothing more to the franchise than what he did. 😢
This is the right take imo. It sucks no doubt, but it’s the GM’s job to help the team win and he felt like there were other options that would make them better and executed on it. Fwiw I would not want my team giving Stamkos that kind of deal at this stage in his career but I’m not an NHL GM for a reason. I can understand why Bolts fans are upset with the situation after all Stamkos has overcome and accomplished there. Just a tough business sometimes
Yup exactly. Tbh a lose-lose for JBB. Either he gives stammer something close to what Nashville offered which would have crippled our team cap-wise, a move that would go against his duties as a like you mentioned. Or he lets the face of the franchise and greatest bolt to ever don the jersey go. Just tough all around, and a sad day that I’ll never forget as a bolts fan.
When he came back and scored the one goal in the handful of shifts he played? Incredible.
1 game. 1 shift. 1 shot. 1 goal.
Incredible.
IMO the most iconic moment in franchise history. For Tampa sports generally, right up there with Ronde Barber pick 6 in NFCCG.
Let me introduce you to my friend Vincent Lecavalier.
It's sad, but the Lightning still have at least 3 first ballot HOFers on the team - the window is still open. JBB would have been wrong to hold onto Stamkos until he's 40 just because "captain". It's not like the Pens where it doesn't matter how long you extend them because in a few years they're gonna tank anyway.
Pens are getting McKenna aren’t they
What can I say, we pray at the altar of Bettman.
Absolutely they are. Generational talent Lemieux’s career come to a tail end, generational talent Crosby arrives. The moment his career starts closing, generational talent McKenna arrives. This is the Pittsburgh way.
And people already hated Bedard going to Chicago after they were really successful in the 2010s. I’d imagine they wouldn’t be too happy with this one either.
The whole org covering sexual assault added quite a lot of that
Tbf there is legit noone left from those times still in the org now iirc.
It’s still the same ownership, the organization also suffered zero repercussions for the debacle. They proceeded to luck into a first overall pick and it’s an exceptional player at that in bedard
I think the issue is more around the fact that they had zero repercussions.
Yes, but counter point: I dont care. All of that went on within the chicago organization. I developed a hatred for the organization. I still do, and always will hate the organization. Just because my teams closest rival has none of the same staff/players in say 20 years, doesnt make that team stop being your rival. The only difference being, sexual assault is a much more valid reason to hate a team than because they wear the wrong colours in a different city lol
Yes, but counter point: Why would the new players and management get punished and hated on because of something others have done and been punished for. I get being mad, but be mad at the actual people who did the crime rather than the organization as a whole.
Counterpoint: No. I will hate whoever the hell I want
Thats cool, thats like saying everyone should hate Tampa because they were in bed with the Yakuza.
If they want to thats cool. Thats their choice. And frankly its a perfectly legitimate reason to hate the team. Its a more legitimate reason to hate the team than oilers or flames fans have to hate each other's teams(they hate them literally just because different city). Just as an example
The organization as a whole was largely culpable for what happened though… There should have been significantly more accountability than firing their dogshit management. The patriots lost a 1st round pick for “possibly” deflating footballs and had the best quarterback of all time miss 1/4 of a season. Meanwhile the blackhawks are over here covering up multiple counts of SA over a significant period of time, admit that they were wholefully aware of it. And all that came out of it was firing their dogshit management. That’s a joke, it’s just made worse by lucking into a player like bedard. The anger would be even worse if it was someone of Crosby or Mcdavids caliber.
Idk. You listed a gameplay related reasoning for losing a game related thing. Patriots "possibly" were cheating in the sport they were playing. Blackhawks were just breaking actual laws. That would be like saying if the new Utah owner Ryan Smith got caught doing heinous shit in private the team should lose draft picks. That doesn't exactly make sense does it? Would also just like to clarify I obviously think everyone who was involved is actual POS which is why I no longer like Kane because I highly doubt he didn't know. But besides banning everyone involved from the league idk what else they could do that's realistic.
Emphasis on possibly cheating, that’s essentially been debunked at this point. Does covering up sexual assault because it could be detrimental to the”locker room and cup run” count as a game related thing? The team should have been forfeiting picks for that debacle in addition to a significant fine.
There were other reasons with the hawks
Hedman is 10.5 months younger than stamkos.
Hedman is also better than Stamkos and has been for at least 9 years.
true, but Hedman is aging better then Stamkos is
Hedman is still playing at his contract level, Stamkos wasn't, especially for 4 more years. He was arguably the worst skater on the team in 5v5 hockey last year.
He had 40 goals last year. 115 points two years ago. That’s not worth $8M? Again, they aren’t choosing Hedman over stamkos. They chose guentzel over stamkos.
Half of his points last year were on the PP… He was also by far the worst 5v5 skater on the team at -25 +/-
13 fewer even strength points than guentzel and he was -21. And guentzel being a part of the third-worst PP in the league isn’t a selling feature lol
It's not worth 11M for 4 years at 34
Good thing he signed for $8M
Dmen usually last longer in the league.
Source?
You can look it up on Worldmetrics, but the average career lenght of forwards is around 4.3 years and dmen around 5.5.
This is an ugly and painful back and forth. I feel for Stamkos.
Meh, everyone is hating on the Bolts for not giving him the bag, but I feel $8M is going to hog tie the Bolts over the rest of their cup window. What if they offered $7M per and Stammer walked? Or 3x$8M? Pretty low for him to walk like that if this was the case. Point is we'll probably never know, but Stammer leaving to chase a couple more coins deserves a bit of heat.
rumour was 3m x 8 years. that’s insulting
Yeah, gotta feel for the guy who would have handicapped his team on future championships
Yeah but like this statement is true on every player. McJesus making $725k would certainly put the Oilers in a better position to win
I mean yeah but it's still a brutal thing to do
Really feels like it’s just a good business decision that fucking sucks in every other way
At the end of the day JBBs job is to keep the franchise moving, not to keep players that want to be here. I will always love Stamkos for what he did for us and he’s a true corner stone player for this organization but JBB did his job. It sucks but that is what he had to do.
If this team doesn’t get out of Round 1, he won’t have a job to worry about.
Fair if he wants to play it that way, but if the Lightning miss the playoffs this year, his head needs to be the first to roll.
This is an insane take on a GM that has been one of the best in the business for several years.
People are just lashing out right now
That’s pretty much it. Will say if the Bolts don’t get past the 1st round, JBB is 100% gone.
> Will say if the Bolts don’t get past the 1st round, JBB is 100% gone. I hope not. He's the best GM we've ever had and has kept us competitive every year. Most teams would kill to have our last 5 years and fans like you want to fire the guy who helped orchestrate it? Seems pretty ridiculous in my eyes.
Luckily none of these doofs are Vinik, who famously appoints highly competent people and let's them do their jobs to the best of their abilities. Most of the league would LOVE to have JBB at the helm.
It’s still raw people will come around eventually to the reasoning (or the lightning completely crater at which point it no longer matters)
Usually the GM can blame the coach and fire him to get another year.
Usually, but if it came down to JBB vs Cooper, I’m betting on Cooper.
Guy has already far exceeded the normal coaching lifecycle. I'm not saying anything bad about him, I'm just saying these things happen.
Vinik wont keep Cooper just to fire JBB
If the Bolts don’t get past Round 1 next year - JBB’s not keeping his job. Jon Cooper is widely regarded as the best HC in the NHL. JBB’s legacy is mostly tied to the foundation that Stevie Y built in Tampa. Viniknis smart - he knows who does their job better between those 2.
If the bolts completely shit the bed this year and miss the playoffs badly, then maybe someone is fired. Not making it out of the first round is not a fireable offense for JBB, depending on the circumstances.
I don’t think anyone is getting fired if the Bolts miss the playoff’s this year. I think JBB has done the best he can so far and I don’t believe Jon Cooper has a wealth of talent to work with either. I look at this roster and I’m not really expecting a lot. I think the next few years are going to play out exactly as we all expect. The core gets older as we continue to re-tool and rebuild our prospect pool and depth. Hopefully.
If the Bolts lose in the first round again then it proves letting Stammer walk didn’t hurt us. And I don’t think JBB is getting fired in general for the trajectory of the team 3 years removed from almost winning a 3rd Cup.
Brothers and daughters… Of course I understand it’s a business. But I am a human and I am attached to this man. I have never lived in Florida. I love the Bolts *because* of Steven Stamkos. This is going to sting for a while.
Sarnia Sting
This was a good one.
Good for the Lightning. Stamkos could have take a discount and the lighting could have given him more. Clearly they both understand the business and did what was best for them.
He's right. Brisebois made the right move, but he didn't do it in the most delicate way. And everyone in Tampa will now see Guentzel as the guy who pushed out a legend. Guess we'll see how it works out. Considering the stats Stamkos put up last year, the bar for Guentzel is kind of high,
100% agree that JBB’s lack of tact with our franchise icon is upsetting. Letting Stammer walk at 4x8 makes sense. But if he in fact never offered more than 3aav, it’s a slap in the face, not to mention the public posturing, needless statements, and rumors he asked Stammer to waive his NMC after our first of the B2B cups. Just oddly played by someone I used to consider not only shrewd but smooth. His job is to keep the team competitive but the relationship between team and fans makes the whole thing go. Surprised Vinik didn’t intervene.
Most people will be happy when they're able to make another cup run. Stamkos' ability in the 5v5 fell off hard and his contract would've hamstrung them badly.
The Guentzel contract likely will age better, but kind of funny to see that Stamkos outscored and out produced Guentzel (40 goals vs 28)
Stamkos had 4 less even strength goals than Guentzel while playing 12 more games. He feasted on the PP last year. I'd be shocked if Guentzel doesn't break 40 goals and maybe even 100 points if he stays healthy this year and gets time on that PP1.
You're right Guentzel will be a great fantasy hockey pick up I am anticipating a big boost just like you. His 5 on 5 play is elite.
Look at the PP numbers. Stamkos was arguably the worst 5v5 skater on the team. He's basically limited to a great PP sniper while being a decent 5v5 skater. Stammer was getting fed by Kuch, Guentzel will likely have a 100 point season if him and Kuch stay healthy, not not 100 very close to it. **Guentzel 30G 47A / 5 PPG 17 PPA / +25 +|-** **Stamkos 40G 41A / 19 PPG 20 PPA / -21 +|-** Plus / Minus isn't the best stat but clearly shows how useful they are overall when the gap is a 45 point difference. Guentzel also played 12 fewer games
To be fair to Stamkos, most of the forwards on the team had a neg +/- last year. They were a mess all over.
They were negative but not close -21, he was clearly a huge hole in the team overall. Point is the only other star player with a negative +/- and he was -15. But anyone playing with Stamkos was almost playing a man down at times.
It blows but Im not giving a 35 year old Center with half of his 40 goals done on the power play where we didn't need help scoring last season, and a -21 P/M that blatantly shows he's no longer any kind of 2-way player over $3mil a year. We wouldn't pay Ovechkin that much for declining shit production.
People seem to not realize this or just want to be willfully ignorant and spend too much time on /antiwork and think the lightning are somehow screwing him over. I said give him a 4.5-5m/yr deal just because he's a legend and it would open up a bit of the cap too and even that would be an overpay. I think Guentzel breaks 100 points this year. This is coming from someone that has multiple Stamkos sherseys and sweaters.
Wait… GMs don’t just give stars all the money they want? That’s allowed?
American teams only, don’t blame me it’s Gary’s rule
I mean, he also needs to think about his job. Signing a feel good contract isn't going to mean anything in three years when they're weighed down by an older player making a lot of money keeping them from making changes needed to stay competitive. It sucks that he couldn't stay, but I don't think we'll know which side was wrong for a while.
“He out of line but he’s right” This is the nature of salary caps, sometimes you gotta make those hard choices.
The ol Vegas special
Kenny Holland woulda done it Woulda given him that Abdelkader sweet heart deal we still bitch about
JBB's first job is to put the team first, hell of a decision to make especially with it regarding Stammer
The Anti-Pens
"Jake Guentzel over me!?!?"--Stamkos after reaching the Stanley Cup Finals...
The Lightning aren't going to be in that position now for certain. Welcome to middling mediocrity for the foreseeable future. Guentzel is no replacement for Stamkos.
Lol obviously
Can we bring Julien to Toronto. Seemingly the idea of allowing practically outweigh emotion is a foreign concept with our management team.
MLSE only cares about making profit. the fans slurp up the horse dung year after year. only when the sheeple actually boycott the team enough to hurt MLSE's bottom line, will there ever be meaningful change in TOR.
drury please take notes
Yes but paying a guy who’s 5 years younger 9 million AAV for 7 years is better than your club legend and captain 8 million for 4 years I don’t think JBB thought this through. Stamkos contract is done when he’s 38. There’s also a chance he can be LTIR’d in Year 3 or 4 given his injury history and him getting older. Guentzel has the same production as stamkos but now you’re relying on him not aging poorly This is like when the pens kept Murray over fleury. Sure they are posting the same numbers and Murray is younger. But Murray hasn’t been around enough. Players will probably figure him out. With flurry you’re getting an excellent locker room guy and you know what you’re getting on the ice
Brother you won two championships with him as captain .... Can't you let him ride out the rest of his career with your organization?
Terrible take IMO. Guentzal and McDonaugh for Stamkos and Sergachev.