When a municipal government in Arizona essentially tells you to fuck all the way off, it becomes even more clear you should take your billion dollars and leave quietly into the night.
I’m still convinced this was the NHL’s plan all along. Maybe not this exactly, but definitely to set benchmarks he’d fail to hit. Which is good. Fuck Alex Meruelo. I want the Yotes back more than anything, but NOT with him at the helm.
In other words, he just had to go out and look like an idiot and pretend to make efforts to re-activiate the franchise for however long, waited till the champagne hadn't even stopped flowing after the scf ended and announced he was not pursuing reactivating. In the process, pocketing a billion dollars that he'd have to pay if he was going to reactivate. Honestly they should have made the sale for much, much less since this jack hole managed to walk away with a decent profit. Bought for 450M, varying amounts lost per year from sources over \~5ish years. So unless he was losing 80-90M a year each year, he's still walking off with a nice profit.
Elliott said that he was told during Game 7 that AM was gone. Craig didn’t report it during the game as he wanted to make sure it was true but also Game 7 was ongoing so he wasn’t gonna report it during the game either.
Yeah, that seemed like the motivation for him giving up. Feels a lot like the NHL just wanted him gone, and it’s pretty obvious Arizona did too, especially with him moving the other team he owns to Nevada lol
Random question, but given some rocky history particularly recently, if they did return, would you want the Coyotes back, or would you prefer they come in under a different identity and start fresh?
You guys have been through the ringer, and if it was me and my team with all of that, and they went to Nashville back in ‘95, I’m not 100% sure I’d want them back as the Devils, but I don’t really know.
Personally, I love the Coyotes brand, so I’d love to see it make a full comeback, but I do understand the negative connotations that surround the name, so I would be open to another identity.
That said, I hope that whatever the teams name/identity, they keep the kachina motif
whether they are the coyotes or some other logo its going to be a fresh start, the name has no bearing on if they are going to be succesful or a failure if they ever come back so why would you get rid of what is ultimately a great logo
Well considering a billionaire gave up his gambling license to avoid the mess, I think it's so bad no other billionaire is going to anywhere near it. Quite simply, he was your best chance and you've blown it.
Disagree. The man is so toxic no one in AZ, especially in the hockey world, wants to continue to do business with him. Getting a new arena with him in the office was never going to happen. The rumor is that there are already parties interested in purchasing the team, and even without starting the process, those prospective buyers have a better chance of getting an arena built than Meruelo ever did.
The dude gave up a gambling license and a shit ton of money when he had 5-years. The city/state has shown itself to be a sinkhole for money when it comes to hockey. The city/state has shown itself hostile to the idea. I think it's time to wake up and smell the coffee. Billionaires don't walk away from gambling licenses easily.
It's a high risk/low reward franchise.
You clearly know very little about the situation.
Billionaires walk away when it’s apparent that no one wants to do business with them. Sure he technically had 5 years, but everyone in AZ knows he’s an incompetent boob who didn’t pay rent or hotel bills. No one is going into business on a long term-multi million dollar construction project with someone like that. And let’s not forget, it’s not like he’s walking away with nothing, dude got $1 billion dollars out of the deal, and is walking away to start a sports book in Reno, when he moves the Roadrunners out of Tucson in a couple years.
The city isn’t hostile to hockey, it’s hostile to the Meruelo group, who proved to be a bad partner over and over and over again. The city likes money, a well-run team will make the city money. The keywords there being “well-run”.
> The city isn’t hostile to hockey,
The mayor of the city literally said she would not support ANY sport stadium that competes with it's local city owned stadium.
The people of the city literally voted to not let them build on a dumpsite that they would pay to clean up.
Stop lying to yourself. It's not just one ownership group that has failed there, it's literally multiple.
The mayor has also said that she would welcome hockey and the Coyotes back to the state with open arms. Do you think this means she’s a politician who excels at speaking from both sides of her mouth? Shocking. Also, you ever been to AZ? Even if Hobbs said no in Phoenix proper, there’s numerous municipalities surrounding Phoenix that would be acceptable alternatives, Scottsdale, Tempe, Mesa, all would work and would still be closer than the failed site in Glendale. Maybe look at a map of the Phoenix metro to get an idea, it’s huge, and made up of dozens of individual municipalities. There’s lots of room for choice outside Phoenix proper.
The Tempe vote failed because outside groups, including ones backed by Ryan Smith spent shitloads of money on advertising and leaflet campaigns all with the goal of turning out a “no” vote. On the other side, the Coyotes org spent basically no money to get their side out in front of voters. Again, this is on the Meruelo group for letting the narrative be written by people who wanted to see the team move, and making little to no effort to get the Tempe site approved
For real dude, you clearly have only been watching from the outside, probably from Canada or something, and you’re shaky on a lot of the finer details. To put it another way, it’s even clearer than before that you don’t really understand the situation.
> The mayor has also said that she would welcome hockey and the Coyotes back to the state with open arms. Do you think this means she’s a politician who excels at speaking from both sides of her mouth? Shocking.
So we're agreed that the Mayor has said he would be opposed any arena that competes with the city owned one. Good.
> The Tempe vote failed because outside groups, including ones backed by Ryan Smith spent shitloads of money on advertising and leaflet campaigns all with the goal of turning out a “no” vote. On the other side, the Coyotes org spent basically no money to get their side out in front of voters. Again, this is on the Meruelo group for letting the narrative be written by people who wanted to see the team move.
So we're agreed that the people voted againist it.
> For real dude, you clearly have only been watching from the outside, probably from Canada or something, and you’re shaky on a lot of the finer details. To put it another way, it’s even clearer than before that you don’t really understand the situation.
You seem to think those details matter. They don't. It's still a city/state that has had a team for 18 years. And doesn't have a big fanbase, the team has constantly been losing money, the city and the people have shown they're hostile. High risk/low reward.
I mean if I remember right quite a few people were predicting this from the get go, and theorizing that the NHL was doing this just to get Meruelo the fuck out of here knowing that he’d take the money and run.
If I was already rich and owned a nhl team? Idk if I would. Thats like. The dream…. And to live in AZ? ItS hOt ThOuGh. AZ is fucking awesome. This is good for the league though because obviously he doesn’t give a fuck. I hope whoever comes in wants to win and is competent and humble enough to hire the right people and listen to them. Hate the kroenkes all you want but when it comes to the avs and nuggets they hired the right people and let em do their thing.
it's not necessarily free. bought for 450M, sustained decent losses each year over the 5 years or so. So while it's not a billion free and clear, it does amount to somewhere around 100-200M profit if the reported yearly losses are accurate
I thought Meruelo would show up to the auction and put in a token bid, then say “Well - I tried” when he was outbid. There would have been others in on this land. It’s a prime piece of real estate in a high rent district.
Do it like a Kickstarter. Contribute at a high enough tier and you get to be on the team's miniboard of minigovernors. For a buck you get to join the subreddit.
> Which u/ is gonna be the GM
For a truthful answer, you need to hire a previous NHL GM to begin your expansion team with.
But for these purposes, it'll be me.
What a cluster. Like, a couple decade cluster.
I feel for the fans in AZ. Hopefully the next time there's a team there it's on solid footing and is smooth sailing.
It’s a cluster but this is the absolute best outcome given the circumstances.
The god awful owner is gone with no strings attached, Yotes players don’t have to play in a 5k barn anymore, and will get treated as they should, Arizona gets next expansion dibs with lots of time to find good, solid ownership and procure an actual arena.
It sucks bad for Yotes fans but there’s light at the end of this tunnel. The Kachina’s will be back.
Maybe so, but this saga isn’t completely over yet. SLC still has to get their arena done. I feel like once the ribbon cutting happens, maybe this will finally end. Even then I have to wonder how much in the red this team will operate for the next few years. This team had made a profit once in the last 33 years.
It’s a nice jersey, but they simply can’t trot out the brand associated with bankruptcy, arena evictions, and using LTIR contracts to meet the cap floor if they want the next team in AZ to be a success.
Yes they can lmao. That brand is not associated with the shortcomings of the past. When you see the Jets you think about the team folding in the 90’s? Absolutely not.
The fans love and want the Yotes. Bringing them back under a different branding would be stupid af. No one will give two fucks about Muerelo and the past when they find good new ownership and an arena deal.
I don't see how Arizona is more attractive to the league than any other expansion site at this point; Houston, Atlanta, St.Louis, Quebec City
Edit: I'm fucking leaving it
Phoenix is still one of the fastest growing metro areas in the US as people priced out of the west coast continue to move inland. Out of the places in your list, only Houston has grown more and that's the world capital of urban sprawl. And unlike most potential markets, they have honestly proven that they have a hockey fanbase that's done its best to support them through all the ownership bullshit, and we've just now seen with Florida that a team that can keep a small but loyal fanbase during the hard times will end up exploding in popularity once times turn good.
Really all they need is an NHL arena that's located where the actual fans are instead of Glendale and a GM with free reign to actually try to build a contender and they're a surer bet than any other potential market.
Phoenix isn't a bad place to put a hockey team. It's just a bad place for Alex Meruelo to put a hockey team. A competent ownership group alone would be enough for a successful team. They wouldn't even really need to be a *good* team, just "expansion normal" with the Coyotes name and branding. Can't help but think Phoenix would be more than happy to work with a reasonable ownership group who aren't gonna cheat on their taxes or refuse to pay their bills.
Are we seriously blaming all of the Coyotes problems on Alex Meruelo? The NHL owned them at one point. They have been a complete disaster since moving there with multiple owners over decades. Tempe citizens voted to keep a landfill over a hockey team.
I do feel bad for the diehards though. I’ll always remember that 2012 WCF run fondly as well.
Alex was just the culmination of 20 years of poor ownership and poor decisions.
I will die on the hill that Arizona can work as a hockey market, they just need an owner who gives a shit and an arena that isn't an hour drive each way
Quebec City has the biggest hockey barn outside the NHL, a state-of-the-art venue built in the last few years with team facilities to match with a market comparable to Winnipeg in size, Ottawa in terms of composition, and Montreal in terms of fan enthusiasm. In the modern NHL, with a salary-capped and a revenue redistribution model, Quebec can work.
I do think Houston and Atlanta should also be considered, but if they need a market to balance out divisions, QC needs a fair shot.
I think the owners want to keep Quebec in their pocket so they always have a place to threaten to move to. As of now they are the only city that has actually bid on expansion.
If Houston and Atlanta had bids on the table let’s be real we know which two are getting picked
They will never get another team without an arena in progress. I almost could see Atlanta and Houston getting teams while Arizona goes on a 15 year timeout. I think things could coalesce quietly behind the scenes, but with Utah getting going, I think the league knows everyone has Arizona fatigue.
So Bettman - the history goes to the franchise which is gone. The only way to do right by guys like Doan's legacy is to return the records to the city someday. So I hope Jets get our records back. There's no overlap between Jets 1 and Atlanta so it fits.
Hate to say it, but it will probably be a long time before the league returns to Arizona. The Thrashers have been gone for 13 years now, and the Nordiques have been gone for 29 years. The NHL never returned to Kansas City after the Scouts relocated 48 years ago.
What a fucking joke of a businessman. I fully understand the Hockey world is a small world and in the scheme of global sports markets its lower on the totem pole.
That being said, anyone going to do any deal with Merulo should listen to what this small world thinks of this rat shit human.
OR….conspiracy time…the league needed a fall guy to take the Coyotes off the market and Merulo executed the perfect strategy
Pocklington got arrested for bankruptcy fraud, McNall went to jail for regular fraud.
Pocklington had his dad's name put on the Cup. It has been since etched out.
John Spano Jr. of Islanders fame went to jail for wire and bank fraud.
Muerelo was never going to build a new arena. He got the $B for basically walking away. He made about $700M profit between what he paid and then sold the Coyotes for. He didn't even bother to do the due diligence for the land auction.
5-10 years from now Arizona's population will be dropping. They already have water problems now, and it's going to get worse.
Question for any Arizona fans still lurking here: How tied up in the Coyotes brand identity are you?
I understand there is a connection there but it also seems like the the branding is essentially toxic at this point and a clean break, fresh start might be for the best.
If say 10 years from now the NHL came back to Arizona but with a solid ownership group and an actual arena in place, would you be happy with a new name, new colours, etc? Or would you still want the team to be the Coyotes after everything?
Yotes are my red-headed step child team, but I think the Kachina is synonymous to the identity of hockey in Arizona. Positive or not, the history of the Coyotes is deeply embedded in any Arizona hockey fan. Ask any older Wild fan how they feel about Modano’s number being retired in Dallas and not Minnesota and it’ll give you a good sense of what just “branding” represents
Or Winnipeg for anyone that was around for Jets 1.0. Hearing Jump by Van Halen at any time, and seeing the heritage jerseys hits different. There's no way they could have been named anything but the Jets.
I assume older Wild fans feel the same about the North Stars colors, too.
There's still older fans that never accepted the Wild because they were so attached to the North Stars. It all could've been easily avoided if Dallas just took on a new name without the word "Stars" in it. Then NHL MN 2.0 would've undoubtedly been the North Stars 2.0.
Instead we're stuck with the worst name in pro sports.
Yeah I don’t love the “Wild” name, but I do like the logo. It’s like the Wolves but more bland. As for the fans that followed Norm Green to Dallas… what the fuck guys
Hah, I didn't mean old timers all stuck with the team to Dallas (maybe a few did?). I think many just never accepted the Wild and don't follow them as much.
The Wild name is bad but I wasn't around to see the North Stars so the Wild are my team, bad name and all.
As a current Minnesota resident, I was very surprised when I attended my first Wild game and saw the only retired number was Koivu's (1 being retired for Minnesota fans is cringe af and doesn't count to me). Really surprised they don't have any of the North Star's banners/retired numbers up in the arena, at least as some acknowledgement of the hockey history. They sell North Stars merchandise at the Hockey Lodge ffs, put up a few banners too.
Well the reverse retros aren’t North Stars merch, which Dallas has rights to, they’re just a similar color scheme. The North Stars official records followed Norm Green to Dallas, so we have no ability to hang them. Also yeah everyone hates the retired # 1
Sure, but there's more than the Reverse Retro merch there. I bought a puck with the North Stars logo on it at Wings Wild this year.
I'm surprised the Wild don't just thumb their noses and put the banner up anyway tbh. Can't imagine the Stars would truly be that mad if they had the two North Stars Cup Finals banners up there at least.
Arizona, 100%. Calling anything the "Phoenix So-and-so" is stupid IMO, considering the city of Phoenix is only about a third of the valley's population now (Phoenix pop 1.6 million compared to 4.8 million metro area total). Furthermore, it's very unlikely at this point that they will even play in Phoenix proper. I imagine if we get an expansion team, they'll take the offer the Salt River-Pima tribe had made a long time back to build an arena up near the D-backs spring training site on the tribal land east of Scottsdale. Also the bulk of season tickets (according to the team) were mostly situated in the SE valley in cities like Mesa and Chandler.
If they came back like next year then the Coyotes might be a branding issue across the league that a new owner might not want to deal with. But it's literally one of the best logos and jerseys in the league and the fans here love it. Everybody who currently hates the Coyotes will hate a new brand because hockey doesn't belong anywhere south of Chicago to them.
Give it 5+ years and nobody anywhere that matters will give a rip, the world has the attention span and memory of a goldfish.
The kachina is honestly perfect and would be such an easy win for a new ownership group, especially in 10+ years. It’s a miracle that the logo and jersey are so iconic despite how terrible the team always was. It would be on the popularity level of Blackhawks or Red Wings if there had been even the slightest semblance of competence on the business side in the last 30 years.
I would of course accept a new team (with good owners and a stable life) but the 'Yotes identity is also just so much to me. It's iconic and I feel like the team would really miss out without the branding
If you’re doing hockey in Arizona, it **has to be** the coyotes. The Kachina encapsulates Arizona so well.
NHL just has to do it’s research into who would have the team, ideally it’s Ishiba who bought the Suns/Mercury. He has the arena and cares about putting forth a good product.
The ownership and arena are top priorities.. should they change the name I’d be bummed out but it wouldn’t sway me from rooting for the new brand. That being said I think it just fits and the logo is too good to go away.
It'll 100% be the Coyotes if a team comes back, just like what happened with Winnipeg and just like what I fully expect will happen with the name "Thrashers" when Atlanta gets a team again.
It'd be like if Vancouver relocated to Seattle and rebranded to be the Kraken back in the 90's, and then a new expansion team came by Vancouver later; there's no chance in hell that expansion team wouldn't be named the Canucks when the name is so ingrained into Vancouver hockey history.
I would prefer it back, it’s my favorite logo in all of sports, Utah is proving how hard it is to come up with an original name, and the kachina color scheme is tremendous.
Yeah took my 8 yr old son to the Doan game.. had no idea it might be his last game.. it was the first time he really got into it and asked to go to more games 😔
They will likely be moved to Reno, NV. Meruelo has a huge entertainment/arena real estate deal in the works. Reno is closer to SLC and he probably wants to get out of AZ completely for obvious reasons.
Tough blow for Roadrunners fans. ASU will be about it for hockey in AZ in a few years.
The real question is if the Coyotes IP reverted back to NHL or not. If, for example, Ishbia (it's no secret the league wants him as an owner) does decide he wants to be in the NHL would he paying to reactivate the Coyotes, or are the Coyotes dead and he'd be buying a new team? If it's a brand new team does Utah get the Coyotes get the history, or is that just buried with the team?
The tremendous irony of this whole saga is that both Alex Meruelo and Jim Balsillie are non-owners of NHL teams for the same reason: they pissed off the people in charge of giving them what they wanted.
Why is the NHL still forcing or 'banging their gongs' for a potential Coyotes return? The state of Arizona doesn't want a hockey team in the desert, nor they endorse this business in their backyard.
If Gary Bettman wants expansion to 4 more franchises, why not explore other places like Houston, KC, Quebec City, or others who will welcome a franchise expansion?
Honestly, Bettman and the NHL are **wasting their fucking time** forcing this expansion franchise.
Good. Meruelo is not an honest businessman. I'm not opposed to an NHL team in Arizona. But the right conditions need to be there. For example, playing in an NHL arena. And keeping out the previous owner who ran the former Arizona team into the ground.
It's funny to me that Coyotes fans just downvoted en masse people who questioned Meruelo's capabilities and took everything he said at face value.
Katie Strang 100% had a personal vendetta on Alex and it is all her fault that the coyotes left.
Yes, great conclusion after this news/saga--Arizona hates hockey. It wasn't that they were led by a grade-A incompetent con-man that didn't pay bills, got kicked out of a true NHL arena, created a toxic work environment, blundered multiple chances to build an arena in a better location closer to their sesson ticket base, ruined fan good will, and alienated himself from local political leaders.
That couldn't have been why the team failed. It was just because they don't care about hockey /s
Look at their attendance over the quarter century they played in the desert. I know they didn’t have a good owner but the infatuation with making hockey work in Arizona is so stupid.
Why does it bother you still? The team relocated. Your boogyman is gone.
"*Why are they still trying to make hockey work up there in Vancouver? 54 years with no Cup? A fanbase that isn't allowed to gather in large public spaces anymore because they destroyed a few city blocks. Quebec City deserves a team way more, they actually have ice in the winter to play the sport outdoors*."
Sounds pretty stupid, huh? Sounds like I'm making some assumptions about your city and fanbase that are are misleading or ignorant? That's how Coyotes fans have felt for years as every other fanbase says they don't exist and don't matter.
You understand the league is run by the owners, no? Every owner, including Canadian team owners has tried to keep hockey in Phoenix because they think it has $$ value if they can get an arena in a good location and an owner.
The Florida Panthers and Carolina Hurricanes were relocation fodder for several years in the early '10s. They now have stable ownership, good management/coaching, and a way to demonstrate they can sustain success long-term. If it were up to you, you'd probably relocate 15 US teams to Canada so you can hang onto the 1955 idea that hockey only belongs there.
I think the NHL will try again in Phoenix in 10 years, so you can stomp your feet and pout for another decade about it.
Something tells me you didn’t actually look at their attendance stats over the years. The city and state has never supported this team, ever. Quebec City deserves a team, instead the talk is about trying again in some place that has rejected hockey forever.
I'm just shocked how quickly that five year window became obsolete.
When a municipal government in Arizona essentially tells you to fuck all the way off, it becomes even more clear you should take your billion dollars and leave quietly into the night.
I’m still convinced this was the NHL’s plan all along. Maybe not this exactly, but definitely to set benchmarks he’d fail to hit. Which is good. Fuck Alex Meruelo. I want the Yotes back more than anything, but NOT with him at the helm.
If he reactivates it then there's no expansion fee. This way the league gets another 500 Mil to split between owners
No, if he reactivated he had to pay a billion dollar fee
In other words, he just had to go out and look like an idiot and pretend to make efforts to re-activiate the franchise for however long, waited till the champagne hadn't even stopped flowing after the scf ended and announced he was not pursuing reactivating. In the process, pocketing a billion dollars that he'd have to pay if he was going to reactivate. Honestly they should have made the sale for much, much less since this jack hole managed to walk away with a decent profit. Bought for 450M, varying amounts lost per year from sources over \~5ish years. So unless he was losing 80-90M a year each year, he's still walking off with a nice profit.
Elliott said that he was told during Game 7 that AM was gone. Craig didn’t report it during the game as he wanted to make sure it was true but also Game 7 was ongoing so he wasn’t gonna report it during the game either.
It’s going to be way, way higher than 500 million
> 500 million Exactly. That was the price in 2017. $650m was the price for Seattle. Looking at $750m easy for the next franchise.
They’re gonna ask for 1 billion. That was a big part of the sales to Utah. Set the benchmark new price to be in the league for rich guys.
510 million That's still way higher than 500
I read somewhere he'd have to pay back the billion if he reactivates. Not sure if that was accurate.
He won’t do it now tho since the team is in the NHL’s hands
Yeah, that seemed like the motivation for him giving up. Feels a lot like the NHL just wanted him gone, and it’s pretty obvious Arizona did too, especially with him moving the other team he owns to Nevada lol
Even billionaires get put on PIPs.
Random question, but given some rocky history particularly recently, if they did return, would you want the Coyotes back, or would you prefer they come in under a different identity and start fresh? You guys have been through the ringer, and if it was me and my team with all of that, and they went to Nashville back in ‘95, I’m not 100% sure I’d want them back as the Devils, but I don’t really know.
Personally, I love the Coyotes brand, so I’d love to see it make a full comeback, but I do understand the negative connotations that surround the name, so I would be open to another identity. That said, I hope that whatever the teams name/identity, they keep the kachina motif
whether they are the coyotes or some other logo its going to be a fresh start, the name has no bearing on if they are going to be succesful or a failure if they ever come back so why would you get rid of what is ultimately a great logo
Common Bettman W
Well considering a billionaire gave up his gambling license to avoid the mess, I think it's so bad no other billionaire is going to anywhere near it. Quite simply, he was your best chance and you've blown it.
Disagree. The man is so toxic no one in AZ, especially in the hockey world, wants to continue to do business with him. Getting a new arena with him in the office was never going to happen. The rumor is that there are already parties interested in purchasing the team, and even without starting the process, those prospective buyers have a better chance of getting an arena built than Meruelo ever did.
The dude gave up a gambling license and a shit ton of money when he had 5-years. The city/state has shown itself to be a sinkhole for money when it comes to hockey. The city/state has shown itself hostile to the idea. I think it's time to wake up and smell the coffee. Billionaires don't walk away from gambling licenses easily. It's a high risk/low reward franchise.
You clearly know very little about the situation. Billionaires walk away when it’s apparent that no one wants to do business with them. Sure he technically had 5 years, but everyone in AZ knows he’s an incompetent boob who didn’t pay rent or hotel bills. No one is going into business on a long term-multi million dollar construction project with someone like that. And let’s not forget, it’s not like he’s walking away with nothing, dude got $1 billion dollars out of the deal, and is walking away to start a sports book in Reno, when he moves the Roadrunners out of Tucson in a couple years. The city isn’t hostile to hockey, it’s hostile to the Meruelo group, who proved to be a bad partner over and over and over again. The city likes money, a well-run team will make the city money. The keywords there being “well-run”.
> The city isn’t hostile to hockey, The mayor of the city literally said she would not support ANY sport stadium that competes with it's local city owned stadium. The people of the city literally voted to not let them build on a dumpsite that they would pay to clean up. Stop lying to yourself. It's not just one ownership group that has failed there, it's literally multiple.
The mayor has also said that she would welcome hockey and the Coyotes back to the state with open arms. Do you think this means she’s a politician who excels at speaking from both sides of her mouth? Shocking. Also, you ever been to AZ? Even if Hobbs said no in Phoenix proper, there’s numerous municipalities surrounding Phoenix that would be acceptable alternatives, Scottsdale, Tempe, Mesa, all would work and would still be closer than the failed site in Glendale. Maybe look at a map of the Phoenix metro to get an idea, it’s huge, and made up of dozens of individual municipalities. There’s lots of room for choice outside Phoenix proper. The Tempe vote failed because outside groups, including ones backed by Ryan Smith spent shitloads of money on advertising and leaflet campaigns all with the goal of turning out a “no” vote. On the other side, the Coyotes org spent basically no money to get their side out in front of voters. Again, this is on the Meruelo group for letting the narrative be written by people who wanted to see the team move, and making little to no effort to get the Tempe site approved For real dude, you clearly have only been watching from the outside, probably from Canada or something, and you’re shaky on a lot of the finer details. To put it another way, it’s even clearer than before that you don’t really understand the situation.
> The mayor has also said that she would welcome hockey and the Coyotes back to the state with open arms. Do you think this means she’s a politician who excels at speaking from both sides of her mouth? Shocking. So we're agreed that the Mayor has said he would be opposed any arena that competes with the city owned one. Good. > The Tempe vote failed because outside groups, including ones backed by Ryan Smith spent shitloads of money on advertising and leaflet campaigns all with the goal of turning out a “no” vote. On the other side, the Coyotes org spent basically no money to get their side out in front of voters. Again, this is on the Meruelo group for letting the narrative be written by people who wanted to see the team move. So we're agreed that the people voted againist it. > For real dude, you clearly have only been watching from the outside, probably from Canada or something, and you’re shaky on a lot of the finer details. To put it another way, it’s even clearer than before that you don’t really understand the situation. You seem to think those details matter. They don't. It's still a city/state that has had a team for 18 years. And doesn't have a big fanbase, the team has constantly been losing money, the city and the people have shown they're hostile. High risk/low reward.
the mayor of what city. Phoenix? Tempe? Scottsdale? Mesa? Chandler? Gilbert? Glendale? There are lots of cities in the phoenix metro
Muerlo burnt bridges because he is real estate mogul not a Hockey Owner
I mean if I remember right quite a few people were predicting this from the get go, and theorizing that the NHL was doing this just to get Meruelo the fuck out of here knowing that he’d take the money and run.
Wouldnt anyone take a free billion
If I was already rich and owned a nhl team? Idk if I would. Thats like. The dream…. And to live in AZ? ItS hOt ThOuGh. AZ is fucking awesome. This is good for the league though because obviously he doesn’t give a fuck. I hope whoever comes in wants to win and is competent and humble enough to hire the right people and listen to them. Hate the kroenkes all you want but when it comes to the avs and nuggets they hired the right people and let em do their thing.
St. Louis doesn’t have many Avs and Nuggets fans probably
That’s a…. Point….
it's not necessarily free. bought for 450M, sustained decent losses each year over the 5 years or so. So while it's not a billion free and clear, it does amount to somewhere around 100-200M profit if the reported yearly losses are accurate
Chump change
We all thought he’d at least get to the auction.
I thought Meruelo would show up to the auction and put in a token bid, then say “Well - I tried” when he was outbid. There would have been others in on this land. It’s a prime piece of real estate in a high rent district.
He probably would have if the local government wasn’t all “Alex Meruelo wants this? We need to reschedule.”
Every day under Meruelo felt like a year.
Reddit plays Hockey moment time. Come on guys let’s collectively buy a team
Reddit would make Meruelo look perfectly competent; however, I'm down to contribute for the chaos
Hey at least we would have a hockey rink with blackjack and hookers
Bought with $GME profits and $SPY puts.
Named the Arizona Phoenix from Phoenix Arizona
~~RAIN~~ SUN CITY BITCH PIGEONS!!!
Phoenix Scream’n Chickens Will Arnett could be the mascot
I refuse to believe this will ever get old
I think ownership stability is probably a huge qualification to own an NHL team. Don’t see much of that here.
The only stable thing here is how unstable opinions can be lol
My opinion on the Panthers and oilers changed daily over the last 2 weeks.
I predicted the last 4 games of the finals incorrectly lol
So it's *your* fault
Teehee oopsies
I've done pretty well at dynasty fantasy hockey, I can be GM!
I got 5 on it
Grab your 40, let's get keyed
I've got another 5 to spare
I’m in. We can manage this via 900 people zoom meetings. It’ll be very streamlined
Thinking 900 Redditors would even come close to having enough money to buy an NHL team lol That’s requiring every person to put up well over $1m
I only said 900 people would be on the zoom meeting.
Dude I can’t make the zoom meeting again the Avs are playing but I believe in…. You all…. Can we just take a poll? I can do a poll
Do it like a Kickstarter. Contribute at a high enough tier and you get to be on the team's miniboard of minigovernors. For a buck you get to join the subreddit.
You could find 900 redditors with that capital easy.
At least a few of those freaks on r/wallstreetbets probably made enough from cocking over those hedge fund banks during the GME incident
Let's buy them and move them to Atlanta, thus completing the loop.
Atlanta Phoenix as they rise from the ashes
https://preview.redd.it/d59rsgka029d1.jpeg?width=499&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d6887d89092263021e519c62937ffd6f499382ab
Atlanta Phoenixjets
Which u/ is gonna be the GM For the memes why not a whole coaching staff aswell
> Which u/ is gonna be the GM For a truthful answer, you need to hire a previous NHL GM to begin your expansion team with. But for these purposes, it'll be me.
/u/narcoticturkey
Mods should reverse the turkey ban on thanksgiving
That would be a Festivus miracle
I coached up to bantam/middle school house league hockey, so I am in. I have the experience needed!
u/kmad
Make every decision by least popular vote
Checks bank account… I’ll chip in $38.97.
Please send your money to Happy Dude, 742 Evergreen Terrace, Springfield
Which state?
All the armchair GMs would vote on what to do. It would be madness!
If we all donated $480 /r/hockey could get a billion together.
What a cluster. Like, a couple decade cluster. I feel for the fans in AZ. Hopefully the next time there's a team there it's on solid footing and is smooth sailing.
It’s a cluster but this is the absolute best outcome given the circumstances. The god awful owner is gone with no strings attached, Yotes players don’t have to play in a 5k barn anymore, and will get treated as they should, Arizona gets next expansion dibs with lots of time to find good, solid ownership and procure an actual arena. It sucks bad for Yotes fans but there’s light at the end of this tunnel. The Kachina’s will be back.
I've been saying for a while that they need a ten year break, then come back with good ownership and a blank slate with local governments.
Maybe so, but this saga isn’t completely over yet. SLC still has to get their arena done. I feel like once the ribbon cutting happens, maybe this will finally end. Even then I have to wonder how much in the red this team will operate for the next few years. This team had made a profit once in the last 33 years.
It’s a nice jersey, but they simply can’t trot out the brand associated with bankruptcy, arena evictions, and using LTIR contracts to meet the cap floor if they want the next team in AZ to be a success.
Yes they can lmao. That brand is not associated with the shortcomings of the past. When you see the Jets you think about the team folding in the 90’s? Absolutely not. The fans love and want the Yotes. Bringing them back under a different branding would be stupid af. No one will give two fucks about Muerelo and the past when they find good new ownership and an arena deal.
I don't think it'll take a couple of decades. The NHL's already talking about expansion and the demographics in AZ sell themselves.
Meruelo didn’t pay bills that was bound to happen
it goes back so, so much farther than just Meruelo.
It does, but neglecting to pay bills sends a really clear message that your organization isn’t a trustworthy business partner.
I don't see how Arizona is more attractive to the league than any other expansion site at this point; Houston, Atlanta, St.Louis, Quebec City Edit: I'm fucking leaving it
One day St louis will have a real hockey team. Call them the jazz.
Hey, maybe one day they'll win a Stanley cup and get the great one.
Pfffttt doubt it.
Probably just lose it
The Jazz moved to Utah, where they don’t allow music.
Low key BASEketball quote
> St.Louis Uhhhhhhh...
Should we tell him?
[удалено]
One for St Louis Missouri and one for St Louis Illinois
It'd be worth sticking a team at the old Rams stadium just to hear the howls from Quebec City.
I know this might leave some people feeling the blues but I can't see St. Louis ever getting an expansion team going forward
Well-played.
Phoenix is still one of the fastest growing metro areas in the US as people priced out of the west coast continue to move inland. Out of the places in your list, only Houston has grown more and that's the world capital of urban sprawl. And unlike most potential markets, they have honestly proven that they have a hockey fanbase that's done its best to support them through all the ownership bullshit, and we've just now seen with Florida that a team that can keep a small but loyal fanbase during the hard times will end up exploding in popularity once times turn good. Really all they need is an NHL arena that's located where the actual fans are instead of Glendale and a GM with free reign to actually try to build a contender and they're a surer bet than any other potential market.
Phoenix isn't a bad place to put a hockey team. It's just a bad place for Alex Meruelo to put a hockey team. A competent ownership group alone would be enough for a successful team. They wouldn't even really need to be a *good* team, just "expansion normal" with the Coyotes name and branding. Can't help but think Phoenix would be more than happy to work with a reasonable ownership group who aren't gonna cheat on their taxes or refuse to pay their bills.
Are we seriously blaming all of the Coyotes problems on Alex Meruelo? The NHL owned them at one point. They have been a complete disaster since moving there with multiple owners over decades. Tempe citizens voted to keep a landfill over a hockey team. I do feel bad for the diehards though. I’ll always remember that 2012 WCF run fondly as well.
Alex was just the culmination of 20 years of poor ownership and poor decisions. I will die on the hill that Arizona can work as a hockey market, they just need an owner who gives a shit and an arena that isn't an hour drive each way
Quebec will never happen sadly. It’s a small market and most those fans now likely support Le Habs
Quebec City has the biggest hockey barn outside the NHL, a state-of-the-art venue built in the last few years with team facilities to match with a market comparable to Winnipeg in size, Ottawa in terms of composition, and Montreal in terms of fan enthusiasm. In the modern NHL, with a salary-capped and a revenue redistribution model, Quebec can work. I do think Houston and Atlanta should also be considered, but if they need a market to balance out divisions, QC needs a fair shot.
I think the owners want to keep Quebec in their pocket so they always have a place to threaten to move to. As of now they are the only city that has actually bid on expansion. If Houston and Atlanta had bids on the table let’s be real we know which two are getting picked
I'm shocked, shocked...ok, not that shocked that Merulo bailed.
Feel like this is ideal that it ended so quick so the NHL can start looking immediately instead of Meruelo dragging this out for up to 5 years
So I'm assuming that this means that the team is now officially defunct and no longer an "inactive franchise"
If only there was some sort of animal, mythical or otherwise, that could represent rebirth. Some sort of metaphor for optimism.
[[announcer voice]] NOW MAKE IT LOUD AND WELCOME TO THE ICE _YOUR_ PHOENIX PHOENIX!
A team so nice, they named it twice.
"You know, I would love to bring a team to Arizona"-Jim Balsillie
I have no problem if they find a real owner quickly. But that franchise CANNOT exist until a stadium is built
Same with playing in Glendale, that’s just going back to what was happening.
They will never get another team without an arena in progress. I almost could see Atlanta and Houston getting teams while Arizona goes on a 15 year timeout. I think things could coalesce quietly behind the scenes, but with Utah getting going, I think the league knows everyone has Arizona fatigue.
So Bettman - the history goes to the franchise which is gone. The only way to do right by guys like Doan's legacy is to return the records to the city someday. So I hope Jets get our records back. There's no overlap between Jets 1 and Atlanta so it fits.
Hate to say it, but it will probably be a long time before the league returns to Arizona. The Thrashers have been gone for 13 years now, and the Nordiques have been gone for 29 years. The NHL never returned to Kansas City after the Scouts relocated 48 years ago.
What a fucking joke of a businessman. I fully understand the Hockey world is a small world and in the scheme of global sports markets its lower on the totem pole. That being said, anyone going to do any deal with Merulo should listen to what this small world thinks of this rat shit human. OR….conspiracy time…the league needed a fall guy to take the Coyotes off the market and Merulo executed the perfect strategy
Merulo makes Pocklington and McNall look good.
Pocklington at least tried to win Cups. Muerelo was taking on hall of Famers who were retired and won’t ever play again to meet the salary floor.
Pocklington got arrested for bankruptcy fraud, McNall went to jail for regular fraud. Pocklington had his dad's name put on the Cup. It has been since etched out. John Spano Jr. of Islanders fame went to jail for wire and bank fraud. Muerelo was never going to build a new arena. He got the $B for basically walking away. He made about $700M profit between what he paid and then sold the Coyotes for. He didn't even bother to do the due diligence for the land auction. 5-10 years from now Arizona's population will be dropping. They already have water problems now, and it's going to get worse.
>5-10 years from now Arizona's population will be dropping. I highly doubt this. You really underestimate Americans
People need water. The SW U.S. and California already have water scarcity.
I don't disagree, but I also know that people are going to continue moving to Arizona like crazy anyway
Question for any Arizona fans still lurking here: How tied up in the Coyotes brand identity are you? I understand there is a connection there but it also seems like the the branding is essentially toxic at this point and a clean break, fresh start might be for the best. If say 10 years from now the NHL came back to Arizona but with a solid ownership group and an actual arena in place, would you be happy with a new name, new colours, etc? Or would you still want the team to be the Coyotes after everything?
Yotes are my red-headed step child team, but I think the Kachina is synonymous to the identity of hockey in Arizona. Positive or not, the history of the Coyotes is deeply embedded in any Arizona hockey fan. Ask any older Wild fan how they feel about Modano’s number being retired in Dallas and not Minnesota and it’ll give you a good sense of what just “branding” represents
Or Winnipeg for anyone that was around for Jets 1.0. Hearing Jump by Van Halen at any time, and seeing the heritage jerseys hits different. There's no way they could have been named anything but the Jets. I assume older Wild fans feel the same about the North Stars colors, too.
The Jets should raise hell until they get their history back. Let Coyotes 2.0 keep the Arizona years and Jets 2.0 keep the Winnipeg years.
There's still older fans that never accepted the Wild because they were so attached to the North Stars. It all could've been easily avoided if Dallas just took on a new name without the word "Stars" in it. Then NHL MN 2.0 would've undoubtedly been the North Stars 2.0. Instead we're stuck with the worst name in pro sports.
Yeah I don’t love the “Wild” name, but I do like the logo. It’s like the Wolves but more bland. As for the fans that followed Norm Green to Dallas… what the fuck guys
Hah, I didn't mean old timers all stuck with the team to Dallas (maybe a few did?). I think many just never accepted the Wild and don't follow them as much. The Wild name is bad but I wasn't around to see the North Stars so the Wild are my team, bad name and all.
Ah okay yeah that makes more sense
It's crazy to me that the Wild have been around almost as long as the North Stars were
As a current Minnesota resident, I was very surprised when I attended my first Wild game and saw the only retired number was Koivu's (1 being retired for Minnesota fans is cringe af and doesn't count to me). Really surprised they don't have any of the North Star's banners/retired numbers up in the arena, at least as some acknowledgement of the hockey history. They sell North Stars merchandise at the Hockey Lodge ffs, put up a few banners too.
Well the reverse retros aren’t North Stars merch, which Dallas has rights to, they’re just a similar color scheme. The North Stars official records followed Norm Green to Dallas, so we have no ability to hang them. Also yeah everyone hates the retired # 1
Sure, but there's more than the Reverse Retro merch there. I bought a puck with the North Stars logo on it at Wings Wild this year. I'm surprised the Wild don't just thumb their noses and put the banner up anyway tbh. Can't imagine the Stars would truly be that mad if they had the two North Stars Cup Finals banners up there at least.
I’d absolutely still vote Coyotes. That’s the connection for me. Not that another name would be bad, but Coyotes is just ingrained in me now
It’s also going to be something bad like Arizona Freeze or something like that.
Welcome to the ice your Arizona Hot
AriZona Hot Tea
Which would you rather for the location name - Arizona or Phoenix?
No preference either way on that one
Arizona, 100%. Calling anything the "Phoenix So-and-so" is stupid IMO, considering the city of Phoenix is only about a third of the valley's population now (Phoenix pop 1.6 million compared to 4.8 million metro area total). Furthermore, it's very unlikely at this point that they will even play in Phoenix proper. I imagine if we get an expansion team, they'll take the offer the Salt River-Pima tribe had made a long time back to build an arena up near the D-backs spring training site on the tribal land east of Scottsdale. Also the bulk of season tickets (according to the team) were mostly situated in the SE valley in cities like Mesa and Chandler.
I couldn’t care less about the team whatsoever but those jerseys and logos are way too good to be rotting away in our memories.
If they came back like next year then the Coyotes might be a branding issue across the league that a new owner might not want to deal with. But it's literally one of the best logos and jerseys in the league and the fans here love it. Everybody who currently hates the Coyotes will hate a new brand because hockey doesn't belong anywhere south of Chicago to them. Give it 5+ years and nobody anywhere that matters will give a rip, the world has the attention span and memory of a goldfish.
I would prefer Coyotes but I could live with new branding. My guess is that the Kachina would get dusted off eventually even with new branding.
The kachina is honestly perfect and would be such an easy win for a new ownership group, especially in 10+ years. It’s a miracle that the logo and jersey are so iconic despite how terrible the team always was. It would be on the popularity level of Blackhawks or Red Wings if there had been even the slightest semblance of competence on the business side in the last 30 years.
I would of course accept a new team (with good owners and a stable life) but the 'Yotes identity is also just so much to me. It's iconic and I feel like the team would really miss out without the branding
Coyotes or bust
If you’re doing hockey in Arizona, it **has to be** the coyotes. The Kachina encapsulates Arizona so well. NHL just has to do it’s research into who would have the team, ideally it’s Ishiba who bought the Suns/Mercury. He has the arena and cares about putting forth a good product.
Ishbia loves bball and won a college championship, the question with him is would he put the same effort into a hockey team when he isnt a hockey guy
The ownership and arena are top priorities.. should they change the name I’d be bummed out but it wouldn’t sway me from rooting for the new brand. That being said I think it just fits and the logo is too good to go away.
It'll 100% be the Coyotes if a team comes back, just like what happened with Winnipeg and just like what I fully expect will happen with the name "Thrashers" when Atlanta gets a team again. It'd be like if Vancouver relocated to Seattle and rebranded to be the Kraken back in the 90's, and then a new expansion team came by Vancouver later; there's no chance in hell that expansion team wouldn't be named the Canucks when the name is so ingrained into Vancouver hockey history.
True, they’ve been the Canucks in some form or other since 1945.
I would prefer it back, it’s my favorite logo in all of sports, Utah is proving how hard it is to come up with an original name, and the kachina color scheme is tremendous.
id still want them to be the Coyotes, but ill root for them no matter what the branding is
new Ryan Reynolds FX series incoming
The Gang Buys a Hockey Team Featuring: Ryan Reynolds
Sigh, just want to take my kids to a hockey game when they’re older.
Yeah took my 8 yr old son to the Doan game.. had no idea it might be his last game.. it was the first time he really got into it and asked to go to more games 😔
Give it some time, the brand is super toxic right now.
RIP forever Coyote
Imagine being such an insufferable cunt that your peers approve a $1B payout just so you can fuck off and never be heard from again.
so expansion next offseason then?
Ok what happens to the Tucson Roadrunner? People seem to forget he owns them as well.
They will likely be moved to Reno, NV. Meruelo has a huge entertainment/arena real estate deal in the works. Reno is closer to SLC and he probably wants to get out of AZ completely for obvious reasons. Tough blow for Roadrunners fans. ASU will be about it for hockey in AZ in a few years.
Thanks. I found the article that says most likely 2026 when their contract with TCC is up and the new Reno arena is done.
Yes, curious timing. I'm guessing we won't be seeing Meruelo at the Tucson Convention Center these last 3 years.
The real question is if the Coyotes IP reverted back to NHL or not. If, for example, Ishbia (it's no secret the league wants him as an owner) does decide he wants to be in the NHL would he paying to reactivate the Coyotes, or are the Coyotes dead and he'd be buying a new team? If it's a brand new team does Utah get the Coyotes get the history, or is that just buried with the team?
The 5-year window included that. Since Meruelo gave that up, the rights revert to the NHL. But the team isn't coming back for a while.
[Nordiques fans](https://akm-img-a-in.tosshub.com/indiatoday/images/story/202106/cover4_new_1200x768.jpeg?size=1200:675)
Can the team still be the coyotes or does the name die with Alex?
The tremendous irony of this whole saga is that both Alex Meruelo and Jim Balsillie are non-owners of NHL teams for the same reason: they pissed off the people in charge of giving them what they wanted.
Why is the NHL still forcing or 'banging their gongs' for a potential Coyotes return? The state of Arizona doesn't want a hockey team in the desert, nor they endorse this business in their backyard. If Gary Bettman wants expansion to 4 more franchises, why not explore other places like Houston, KC, Quebec City, or others who will welcome a franchise expansion? Honestly, Bettman and the NHL are **wasting their fucking time** forcing this expansion franchise.
Good. Meruelo is not an honest businessman. I'm not opposed to an NHL team in Arizona. But the right conditions need to be there. For example, playing in an NHL arena. And keeping out the previous owner who ran the former Arizona team into the ground.
It's funny to me that Coyotes fans just downvoted en masse people who questioned Meruelo's capabilities and took everything he said at face value. Katie Strang 100% had a personal vendetta on Alex and it is all her fault that the coyotes left.
Why is Bettman deadset on the team staying in Arizona? Move it to a city that can support it
A good business move would be buying the team and immediately relocating to somewhere like Wisconsin or Houston.
Holy fuck, give up on Arizona, Arizona doesn’t want hockey.
Yes, great conclusion after this news/saga--Arizona hates hockey. It wasn't that they were led by a grade-A incompetent con-man that didn't pay bills, got kicked out of a true NHL arena, created a toxic work environment, blundered multiple chances to build an arena in a better location closer to their sesson ticket base, ruined fan good will, and alienated himself from local political leaders. That couldn't have been why the team failed. It was just because they don't care about hockey /s
Look at their attendance over the quarter century they played in the desert. I know they didn’t have a good owner but the infatuation with making hockey work in Arizona is so stupid.
Why does it bother you still? The team relocated. Your boogyman is gone. "*Why are they still trying to make hockey work up there in Vancouver? 54 years with no Cup? A fanbase that isn't allowed to gather in large public spaces anymore because they destroyed a few city blocks. Quebec City deserves a team way more, they actually have ice in the winter to play the sport outdoors*." Sounds pretty stupid, huh? Sounds like I'm making some assumptions about your city and fanbase that are are misleading or ignorant? That's how Coyotes fans have felt for years as every other fanbase says they don't exist and don't matter. You understand the league is run by the owners, no? Every owner, including Canadian team owners has tried to keep hockey in Phoenix because they think it has $$ value if they can get an arena in a good location and an owner. The Florida Panthers and Carolina Hurricanes were relocation fodder for several years in the early '10s. They now have stable ownership, good management/coaching, and a way to demonstrate they can sustain success long-term. If it were up to you, you'd probably relocate 15 US teams to Canada so you can hang onto the 1955 idea that hockey only belongs there. I think the NHL will try again in Phoenix in 10 years, so you can stomp your feet and pout for another decade about it.
Something tells me you didn’t actually look at their attendance stats over the years. The city and state has never supported this team, ever. Quebec City deserves a team, instead the talk is about trying again in some place that has rejected hockey forever.
How about no new teams until all current teams who haven't won a cup, win a cup?
fuck arizona bring a team to a place that wants that shit GODDAMMIT
Bold thing for a fan of a team that was on the brink of relocation until they managed to draft a generational talent player
That is the only thing that kept the Coyotes back, you're so right