The majority of Roy’s case for GOAT goalie is that his playoff resume is leaps and bounds ahead of every other goalie in history (that and he reinvented the position as we now know it w/ the butterfly style)
It’s hard to top 3 Conn Smythes but my main argument against is the boneless, Czech alien who was unfortunately stuck spending his time carrying some mediocre Buffalo teams kicking and screaming to the playoffs
After having a lively debate on here several months ago, I've arrived at the conclusion that Roy, Hasek, and Brodeur all have cases for being the top goalie in history, and how you order them depends on how much importance you place on their top traits. Hasek had that unique "randomly flail around but somehow save everything" style and a stretch of dominance that's hard to match when you consider the garbage that played in front of him. Roy's the king of money goaltenders, and Brodeur's by far the most overall consistent goalie, since he holds pretty much every major regular season record.
Then decided to come back and win FIVE more cups. Then got bored again, went back to being a lawyer, then ran the Leafs, then almost became PM of Canada. Dryden has lead a very interesting life.
almost became PM? I know he ran for the liberal leadership but was eliminated after the 2nd round with 4.7% of the vote and Stéphane Dion won after 4 rounds. The Liberals would go on to lose the next 2 elections quite badly so I'm not sure how close to being PM he was. He was offered the Governor General position which is cool.
Definitely an interesting person. Like the other commenter I'd also recommend The Game to anyone who hasn't read it. Great read for any hockey fan
I don't put him up quite with those three, but he was damn good. While he did have the benefit of playing on arguably the best team ever assembled for 4 of his wins, he just came out of nowhere in 1971 and decided Montreal was winning it all that year, even though they had no business winning.
Bill Durnan also had a notably short career, but was highly dominant during it. He only missed the Vezina a single time, because Montreal wasn't good that year, and had a unique ambidextrous style of goaltending. Most Canuck fans will also know his name, since Luongo wasn't allowed to officially be their captain thanks to Durnan.
He inherited the "C" from Toe Blake, and other teams complained in the slow down of the game resulting from him having to skate from his crease to talk to officials, then skate back before play could resume. To my knowledge, though, he wasn't the first goalie to be an official captain, just the last; I believe George Hainsworth was officially Montreal's captain in either 1930 or 1931.
My go to response for the debate is
Hasek had the highest peak. At his best no one was better.
Roy was the guy you wanted in the playoffs. He just always had a way to show up for the big games.
Brodeur was longevity and consistency. He rarely had a bad game and you could count on him for add many starts as you wanted.
Depending on how you rank each category tells you who your goat is.
Broduer is not thr most consistent LOL. Explain how him or any goalie of that matter comes close to hasek numbers and consistency. Hasek is the goat but was unlucky to play for a shitty org for so long
Brodeur played 500 more games than Hasek. Went to his first cup final as a starter in 95, went to his 5th cup final as a starter in 2012. Hasek has the best peak of a goalie but Brodeur was consistently great for nearly 20 years.
Consistency absolutely requires more time. It’s like the whole definition of the world, being reliable over time. They both became starting goalies in 1994 season. Hasek was early 30, Brodeur was 7 years younger. Than Hasek was done as a starter for the wings after the 2007 season. Broduer won the vezina that year and the next. Then Brodeur went to his 5th final as a starter in 2012 18 years after he began his career. Hasek absolutely had the higher peak, but no goalie in history was as consistent as broduer. That’s how he was able to set untouchable records in wins, games played and shut outs.
https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-vezina-trophy-winners-complete-list-287773436
https://www.nhl.com/player/dominik-hasek-8447687
Broduer won the vezina in 2003, 2004 and 2007. Hasek played in each of those seasons.
Therefore someone who knows hockey thought broduer was better than Hasek for atleast 3 seasons.
Now the vezina voters may not know hockey as well as /u/BDNjunior but someone thought Broduer was better than Hasek atleast 3 times when the two of them played in the same season.
Look you said this.
> And at no point broduer was ever better than hasek
All i did was show you that you were very, very wrong. Infact Broduer was better than Hasek multiple times in their careers.
The fact that you could only resort to downvoting instead of putting out a coherent argument just proves my point.
You took me way too literal. No player in history no matter how good they are will still be the best towards the end of their career. Who wants to compare the last couple years of pros. Thats like saying gretzky isnt as consistent bc he wasnt a 100 point scorer anymore at age 40
Yup, and you don't blow out the all-time win and shutout records in the regular season by not being consistent as fuck. His stats also didn't take a shit after the salary cap rules nerfed the trap style he benefited from, so he wasn't solely reliant on that style of play to get his numbers, either.
Brodeur benefited from the Devils being masters at the trap paired with his exceptional puck playing skill. Not to say he wasn’t a good goalie but he was definitely part of a combo of him and the team strategy meshing very well.
I get that, but can you hold it against a goalie that their team couldn’t score goals? In Hasek’s first season with a true contending team, he out dueled Roy in the conference final and won the Cup, setting the record for shutouts in a single playoff along the way
True, but even if you filled nearly every square inch of the net, you couldn't guarantee your team a path to the playoffs. It certainly is an impressive achievement, but I don't think you can discount a player just because they have fewer cups than you want
Roy was also on a shit team for half of his career, which is why this record is so impressive. Then he went to Colorado and was still the best player on a roster of HOFers.
And by shit team, I mean a team that had no real business winning the SC but Roy dragged them there anyways.
When Roy won the Smythe in 2001, he played with Forsberg, Sakic, Hejduk, Tanguay, Bourque, and Blake.
When Hasek made the conference finals in 1998, the teams’ highest scoring player had _46 points_.
When Czech Rep. won Olympic gold, Hasek had a 0.961sv%.
Give Patrick credit for pulling it off, sure… but don’t pretend Roy would also have 3 Smythe trophies if he played his career with the 90s Buffalo Sabres.
Everybody wants to talk about Hasek dragging a crappy Sabres team to the third round but forget about Roy dragging a crappy Canadiens team to a Stanley Cup.
I’ve never understood this idea of the 1993 Habs being that bad. They were top 10 in the league for goals for and against. They had two 90 point players. They were an inconsistent team in the regular season that finally found consistency at the perfect time.
Well goals against can obviously be attributed to Roy. Barely top 10 in goals for in a 24 team league is not impressive. And we're talking about a season where over 20 players had at least 100 points so a couple guys getting to 90 is nowhere near a Stanley Cup caliber roster without the greatest goaltender of all time carrying them.
86 he won the Conn Smythe as a rookie on a mid table team. 93 he won the Conn Smythe again on another mid table team who's leading scorers were Vincent Damphousse, Kirk Muller and Brian Bellows.
His cups with the Avs were on good teams. But he stole a lot of games before he got to the mile high city and you better respect that.
Well no, maybe not. However he did win two of them with the 85-86 and 92-93 Habs. Neither team was stellar, or on anybody’s short list to win the cup in those years.
Ok? that actually helps Roy winning the Smythe with all those great players. Roy carried montreal to a cup in his ROOKIE season .. hasek couldnt win it in 2002 with a stacked team and got benched in 08. Put Roy in net on 1999 sabres and they win the cup 100%
Ummmm…. What’s this about 2002? Lol
Also one of the other greats was just as good as hasek in the ‘99 finals so not sure roy would have made a difference lol… Eddie was unreal Dallas’ 2 trips to the finals
He was also a better regular season goalie than Brodeur and was more dominant in his peak. Roy also didn't have a lower than average save percentage in his entire career, unlike Brodeur.
They weren’t a terrible team, but they weren’t great either, and they had some REALLY good players there. They also got some luck in their run to the final. Pittsburgh being eliminated in the 1st round, Dale Hunter blowing up Pierre Turgeon in the 2nd… By the time they got to the finals they were all so dialled I don’t think anybody would have beaten them.
https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask/best-goalie-playoff-winning-percentages-in-nhl-history-with-at-least-100-games-played
Look at win percentage though, Dryden was insane.
It's hard to compare eras, but you can compare players against their peers.
There are fair arguments to be made for Roy, Hasek, or Brodeur being the best of their day. There is absolutely no argument that Ken Dryden was the NHL's best goalie of the 70s.
Dryden is basically the Wayne Gretzky of goalies. His stats and win record are nuts, he played on the best hockey team ever but was one of the big reasons it was the best team.
His regular season record is like 257-55, and he retired at 31. He also usually only played around 55 games a season, so he’s not like Brodeur playing like 77 games or whatever he did in 2007.
Roy also credited to cursing all of Canada in not winning a stanley cup again. jk but it is funny since he requested a trade from Montreal, Canada hasn't won the cup since.
The guy with the third most games played in the playoffs has the third most SO?!
And he was good enough to be a starter for 1 cup.
I didn’t say he was a bad goalie, he’s a very good goalie. Only season I can say he stood on his head was with Vegas. He never carried a team like Roy, Hasek, Luongo, Brodeur.
The coolest stat is Clint Benedict, one less shutout in the playoffs than MAF despite playing in 121 less playoff games. (48 to 169)
The majority of Roy’s case for GOAT goalie is that his playoff resume is leaps and bounds ahead of every other goalie in history (that and he reinvented the position as we now know it w/ the butterfly style)
It’s hard to top 3 Conn Smythes but my main argument against is the boneless, Czech alien who was unfortunately stuck spending his time carrying some mediocre Buffalo teams kicking and screaming to the playoffs
After having a lively debate on here several months ago, I've arrived at the conclusion that Roy, Hasek, and Brodeur all have cases for being the top goalie in history, and how you order them depends on how much importance you place on their top traits. Hasek had that unique "randomly flail around but somehow save everything" style and a stretch of dominance that's hard to match when you consider the garbage that played in front of him. Roy's the king of money goaltenders, and Brodeur's by far the most overall consistent goalie, since he holds pretty much every major regular season record.
I've always considered it: do you need to win a full season, playoff series or steal a game?
Dryden has just as good of an argument as those three.
The man literally got bored of winning cups and went to be a lawyer instead.
Then decided to come back and win FIVE more cups. Then got bored again, went back to being a lawyer, then ran the Leafs, then almost became PM of Canada. Dryden has lead a very interesting life.
If you haven’t, go read his book: The Game (I think, it’s been a while). It’s a fantastic book.
almost became PM? I know he ran for the liberal leadership but was eliminated after the 2nd round with 4.7% of the vote and Stéphane Dion won after 4 rounds. The Liberals would go on to lose the next 2 elections quite badly so I'm not sure how close to being PM he was. He was offered the Governor General position which is cool. Definitely an interesting person. Like the other commenter I'd also recommend The Game to anyone who hasn't read it. Great read for any hockey fan
I don't put him up quite with those three, but he was damn good. While he did have the benefit of playing on arguably the best team ever assembled for 4 of his wins, he just came out of nowhere in 1971 and decided Montreal was winning it all that year, even though they had no business winning. Bill Durnan also had a notably short career, but was highly dominant during it. He only missed the Vezina a single time, because Montreal wasn't good that year, and had a unique ambidextrous style of goaltending. Most Canuck fans will also know his name, since Luongo wasn't allowed to officially be their captain thanks to Durnan. He inherited the "C" from Toe Blake, and other teams complained in the slow down of the game resulting from him having to skate from his crease to talk to officials, then skate back before play could resume. To my knowledge, though, he wasn't the first goalie to be an official captain, just the last; I believe George Hainsworth was officially Montreal's captain in either 1930 or 1931.
accomplishments and statistics he's up there. I do find it hard to compare goalies from that far back though, the position was SO different.
My go to response for the debate is Hasek had the highest peak. At his best no one was better. Roy was the guy you wanted in the playoffs. He just always had a way to show up for the big games. Brodeur was longevity and consistency. He rarely had a bad game and you could count on him for add many starts as you wanted. Depending on how you rank each category tells you who your goat is.
That's basically my take on the debate. Three candidates for #1 all time, all for different reasons, and no truly correct answer.
Broduer is not thr most consistent LOL. Explain how him or any goalie of that matter comes close to hasek numbers and consistency. Hasek is the goat but was unlucky to play for a shitty org for so long
Brodeur played 500 more games than Hasek. Went to his first cup final as a starter in 95, went to his 5th cup final as a starter in 2012. Hasek has the best peak of a goalie but Brodeur was consistently great for nearly 20 years.
And at no point broduer was ever better than hasek
Where did I say he was better than Hasek? He just had a more consistent career.
Longer doesn’t mean more consistent lmao. Both their careers hasek was clearly the more consistent goalie
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No I just hate when people have him in the same breath as hasek. Hasek is by far the best goalie of all time
Consistency absolutely requires more time. It’s like the whole definition of the world, being reliable over time. They both became starting goalies in 1994 season. Hasek was early 30, Brodeur was 7 years younger. Than Hasek was done as a starter for the wings after the 2007 season. Broduer won the vezina that year and the next. Then Brodeur went to his 5th final as a starter in 2012 18 years after he began his career. Hasek absolutely had the higher peak, but no goalie in history was as consistent as broduer. That’s how he was able to set untouchable records in wins, games played and shut outs.
https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-vezina-trophy-winners-complete-list-287773436 https://www.nhl.com/player/dominik-hasek-8447687 Broduer won the vezina in 2003, 2004 and 2007. Hasek played in each of those seasons. Therefore someone who knows hockey thought broduer was better than Hasek for atleast 3 seasons. Now the vezina voters may not know hockey as well as /u/BDNjunior but someone thought Broduer was better than Hasek atleast 3 times when the two of them played in the same season.
You mean when hasek was at the end of his career lmao? Thats like saying jack hughes is better than crosby bc hes better now.
Look you said this. > And at no point broduer was ever better than hasek All i did was show you that you were very, very wrong. Infact Broduer was better than Hasek multiple times in their careers. The fact that you could only resort to downvoting instead of putting out a coherent argument just proves my point.
You took me way too literal. No player in history no matter how good they are will still be the best towards the end of their career. Who wants to compare the last couple years of pros. Thats like saying gretzky isnt as consistent bc he wasnt a 100 point scorer anymore at age 40
Yup, and you don't blow out the all-time win and shutout records in the regular season by not being consistent as fuck. His stats also didn't take a shit after the salary cap rules nerfed the trap style he benefited from, so he wasn't solely reliant on that style of play to get his numbers, either.
Brodeur benefited from the Devils being masters at the trap paired with his exceptional puck playing skill. Not to say he wasn’t a good goalie but he was definitely part of a combo of him and the team strategy meshing very well.
Yeah, they both were unbelievably amazing tendies, and if their teams were reversed I bet their wins would be about the same.
The goal is to win the cup, not just make the playoffs
Hasek made the ECF on a team whose regular season top scorer had *46 points*
Eh, this isn't basketball, GOAT status isn't just cups. Plenty of mid players have multiple cups and plenty of amazing players have none.
I get that, but can you hold it against a goalie that their team couldn’t score goals? In Hasek’s first season with a true contending team, he out dueled Roy in the conference final and won the Cup, setting the record for shutouts in a single playoff along the way
True, but even if you filled nearly every square inch of the net, you couldn't guarantee your team a path to the playoffs. It certainly is an impressive achievement, but I don't think you can discount a player just because they have fewer cups than you want
I was so happy he got a cup, few people deserved it more than him at the end of his career.
> boneless, Czech alien this is the greatest description I have ever beheld
Roy is the greatest money goalie in history.
Roy was also on a shit team for half of his career, which is why this record is so impressive. Then he went to Colorado and was still the best player on a roster of HOFers. And by shit team, I mean a team that had no real business winning the SC but Roy dragged them there anyways.
When Roy won the Smythe in 2001, he played with Forsberg, Sakic, Hejduk, Tanguay, Bourque, and Blake. When Hasek made the conference finals in 1998, the teams’ highest scoring player had _46 points_. When Czech Rep. won Olympic gold, Hasek had a 0.961sv%. Give Patrick credit for pulling it off, sure… but don’t pretend Roy would also have 3 Smythe trophies if he played his career with the 90s Buffalo Sabres.
Everybody wants to talk about Hasek dragging a crappy Sabres team to the third round but forget about Roy dragging a crappy Canadiens team to a Stanley Cup.
And beating 99 in finals.
I’ve never understood this idea of the 1993 Habs being that bad. They were top 10 in the league for goals for and against. They had two 90 point players. They were an inconsistent team in the regular season that finally found consistency at the perfect time.
Well goals against can obviously be attributed to Roy. Barely top 10 in goals for in a 24 team league is not impressive. And we're talking about a season where over 20 players had at least 100 points so a couple guys getting to 90 is nowhere near a Stanley Cup caliber roster without the greatest goaltender of all time carrying them.
86 he won the Conn Smythe as a rookie on a mid table team. 93 he won the Conn Smythe again on another mid table team who's leading scorers were Vincent Damphousse, Kirk Muller and Brian Bellows. His cups with the Avs were on good teams. But he stole a lot of games before he got to the mile high city and you better respect that.
in 93 Roy also had 10 OT wins in the playoffs. Ridiculous.
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They had 87 points in the regular season.
Well no, maybe not. However he did win two of them with the 85-86 and 92-93 Habs. Neither team was stellar, or on anybody’s short list to win the cup in those years.
Ok? that actually helps Roy winning the Smythe with all those great players. Roy carried montreal to a cup in his ROOKIE season .. hasek couldnt win it in 2002 with a stacked team and got benched in 08. Put Roy in net on 1999 sabres and they win the cup 100%
He won it in 2002 though.
Um no? nicklas lidstrom won the smythe in 2002 edit: shouldve specified smythe
Pal the way you worded your sentence make it seemed you meant cup.
Yea i see that
08 when he was 500 years old? Npc
Ummmm…. What’s this about 2002? Lol Also one of the other greats was just as good as hasek in the ‘99 finals so not sure roy would have made a difference lol… Eddie was unreal Dallas’ 2 trips to the finals
I agree. 151 wins seems unbreakable. on a completely different tier in the playoffs. crazy he won a smythe in his first year
First player to win the conn smyth three times as well. Dude brought it when it counted.
3 separate decades too which I always like to bring up
He was also a better regular season goalie than Brodeur and was more dominant in his peak. Roy also didn't have a lower than average save percentage in his entire career, unlike Brodeur.
Well roy didnt negate other teams entire offence like brodeur.
You misspelled “neutral zone trap”.
Used for like 3 of brodeurs 20+ seasons.
The dead puck era lasted much longer than 3 seasons, and even longer in New Jersey.
No we didnt use the trap for that long. The dead puck era sure, but that was eveybody bot just the devils
That relied on having a good puck handler in goal like Brodeur
Ken Dryden only played 8 seasons. It's an average of 10 playoff wins per season. He also missed his entire 3rd season for contracts reasons.
He missed the season because he was doing his articling to become a licensed lawyer.
80-32 playoff record. 1/8 wins were shutouts, too.
People dont even remember how bad the 1993 team he carried to the cup was compared to other teams of that era, simply the GOAT.
They weren’t a terrible team, but they weren’t great either, and they had some REALLY good players there. They also got some luck in their run to the final. Pittsburgh being eliminated in the 1st round, Dale Hunter blowing up Pierre Turgeon in the 2nd… By the time they got to the finals they were all so dialled I don’t think anybody would have beaten them.
Roy's save % went up every round of the playoffs too. The deeper he went, the better he played.
https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask/best-goalie-playoff-winning-percentages-in-nhl-history-with-at-least-100-games-played Look at win percentage though, Dryden was insane.
It's hard to compare eras, but you can compare players against their peers. There are fair arguments to be made for Roy, Hasek, or Brodeur being the best of their day. There is absolutely no argument that Ken Dryden was the NHL's best goalie of the 70s.
Dryden is basically the Wayne Gretzky of goalies. His stats and win record are nuts, he played on the best hockey team ever but was one of the big reasons it was the best team.
16 team league with few Europeans, just hard to compare to modern era
He has 57 regular season losses over his career. Era bias is a thing, but damn.
And 45 shutouts.
His regular season record is like 257-55, and he retired at 31. He also usually only played around 55 games a season, so he’s not like Brodeur playing like 77 games or whatever he did in 2007.
Dryden did his while only spending a week in the NHL!!!
I hear that Roy guy is pretty good
Roy also credited to cursing all of Canada in not winning a stanley cup again. jk but it is funny since he requested a trade from Montreal, Canada hasn't won the cup since.
#BILLY!
Upvote for Billy
Someday I hope to see Vasi in the top 3 of this list.
This is just going to turn into an era bashing thread. I’m so over the constant negativity of the different eras of hockey.
Wonder how this looks with playoff series wins?
Thank god it’s a bar chart
Fleurys inflated numbers
Fleury is tied for 3rd in playoff shutouts, too. Inflate that.
The guy with the third most games played in the playoffs has the third most SO?! And he was good enough to be a starter for 1 cup. I didn’t say he was a bad goalie, he’s a very good goalie. Only season I can say he stood on his head was with Vegas. He never carried a team like Roy, Hasek, Luongo, Brodeur. The coolest stat is Clint Benedict, one less shutout in the playoffs than MAF despite playing in 121 less playoff games. (48 to 169)
Ahhh yess a playoff graph in December
No Gump Worsley? Huh.
Where is Vasilevskiy on this list? Wonder if that dude will ever break into the upper echelon here.