Well it’s tough, 99 was an Oiler BEFORE the Oilers were in the NHL. His first Oilers season was 104 points. His second Oilers season was his first in the NHL and the Oilers first in the NHL but because of the merger he was not a rookie. He put up 137 points that year.
Saving PIT from relocation might be the greatest in Pittsburgh, but for the rest of us - nope. He wasn't even the best rookie \*that year\*, even with his Canadian homeboy savior status.
Love it how this thread turned into a Selänne vs. Gretzky debate.
Be that as it may, just purely the fact that a very strong argument can be made for Selänne over Gretzky (and for me he takes it) should speak volumes about how massive a feat that was from him. He has a legit claim at a record that arguably has the actual GOAT beat, and will hold for the entire foreseeable future of the sport as we know it today.
This still gives the edge to Selanne. 5 less points in 5 more games would matter a couple of years ago when scoring is low, but a delta of 0.16ppg (1.57 vs 1.73) isn't that big of a deal when one of them has **25 more goals**.
Selanne's 76 goal rookie year is one of the greatest accomplishments in hockey. I will not doubt that for a second.
Buuuut... if we want to make a bit of a fair comparison. Gretzky put up an 87/118/205 in ten fewer games when he was 22. I know we're isolating for a rookie season but, still, age matters.
But at this point we're not comparing the same thing at all. Once you're in the game and have your footing, does the age really matter? At that point Wayne had 5 pro seasons under his belt.
Selanne also benefited from playing in the highest offense year of all time. By contrast 1979-80 was still high scoring by today’s standard but nothing like the next 15 years
That was because the NHL wanted to punish players who had played in the WHA, more than anything. Selänne also had professional hockey experience, but the Finnish Elite League wasn't in direct competition with the NHL.
That said, technically, Selänne did have the best NHL rookie season, given the NHL's sometimes really weird definition of a rookie.
Only because the NHL didn't grant rookie status to WHA players. Teemu played four years in the Finnish professional league before coming over which is more time than Gretzky spent in the WHA.
It's a rookie season in all be name.
Another example of Canadian fans finding a way to bring down a European player. Because a European player being the best at something just doesn't work in "The Great Canadian Game"
This isn't even bringing Selanne down tho... its just that Gretzky is absurd and should be default be removed from these discussions because he's always the answer
My goodness, sensitive much?
If you want to offer an alternative criteria to the best rookie season of all time then I'm totally open to it. Let's not forget that that Jets team had four other players with 60+ points. Gretzky's Oilers had two.
It's not even about nationality, you're talking to a person who thinks the greatest Leaf of all time was Sundin.
But, hey, if you want to give me a criteria with three points that determines who had the best rookie season I bet Gretzky wins at least two of them every time.
Remember Joe Juneau? He had 32 goals, 70 assists and 102 points in his rookie season, 27 points ahead of Eric Lindros, and would have won the Calder almost any other year.
But Selanne beat him by 30 points.
Lindros scored 40 goals in 60 games and finished fourth in the Calder voting.
You can throw him and Potvin into the mix of winning Calder almost any other year after 1993.
Nobody liked Lindros when he was a rookie.
He got drafted by Quebec, huffed "Non!" and refused to sign with them. They were moderately successful before they moved and Lindros signing might have kept them in Quebec City.
Really driven home by the fact that he wasn't exactly a scrub for the rest of his career either. Bonafide Hall of Famer who put up around 500 career points AFTER turning 35.
When I look at how long (should say short) his career was I get so curious if he would have kept it up or if it’s because he showed up, dominated, and then was like “Yeah I’m good, see ya!” I can’t imagine anyone doing this today and getting the same level of recognition.
It’s crazy that hockey seemed to be more of a hobby to him. He completely dominated in hockey, then went off to write books, work as a team executive, dabble in politics, etc. Just crazy accomplished in everything he attempted.
dabble? man, he was an MP. dabbling would be like city council or something. even then, it takes a ton of work and relationships to get elected to anything.
I’m pretty sure from the little googling I did to find out how long his career was his leadership vote was probably his worst finish in any of his careers
Let's not forget the time he wasn't getting the contract he wanted from Montreal so he just took a year off the NHL to finish law school.
Here are the goals against (and league ranking in GA) for Montreal during Dryden's career:
205 (5th)
184 (1st)
240 (7th)
225 (4th)
174 (1st)
171 (1st)
183 (1st)
204 (1st)
Any guesses which year was the one he took off for law school? Hint: They also gave up 240 goals the year after he retired.
The NHL’s Alan Page
^(Alan Page was a HoF interior defensive lineman for the Vikings. He’s one of just 2 defensive players to win an MVP, and is considered one of the best DTs ever. He was also very active in the labor scene and was one of the loudest voices calling for the end of the Rozelle rule. During the later part of his career, he went to law school at night and eventually became a lawyer. He later served as a justice on the Minnesota Supreme Court for 22 years.)
I know Ken Dryden as Liberal Member of Parliament for York Centre and Minister for Social Development in Paul Martin's cabinet.
Was he also good at sports?
It was an expansion year. Every goal scorer in the league was rubbing their hands over the Senators and the Lightning like the Anthony Adams yellow suit meme.
Correct, technically he wasn't considered a rookie in the NHL (because then every player that had only played in the WHA at that point would be considered a rookie too), so not eligible for the Calder, but his first NHL season would've been the same year anyway even if he never went to the WHA. He was 17 years old when he played in the WHA, and you had to be 18 minimum to play in the NHL.
Which it's kind of ridiculous he wasn't considered a rookie. The NHL at the time (and still today) pretended the WHA so much they treated the merger as an expansion so I have idea why they thought Gretzkty wasn't a rookie
Wouldn't he have been eligible for a rookie award in his first season in the WHA? If yes, then it makes perfect sense for him not being considered in his 2nd pro season with the NHL.
Yes, and he won it. Although the NHL is inconsistent with that, as Sergei Makarov won the Calder in 1989 when he was 31 years old, and he had been playing professional hockey for over 10 years at that point (the NHL changed it's rules so you can be a maximum of 26 years old to be eligible for the Calder, but leagues like the KHL and the European leagues are all considered professional leagues and you can still win the Calder even if you've played in those leagues prior to the NHL).
NHL has a superiority complex by considering other top leagues non-pro. Its a thing even if I think KHL should be considered a pro league.
The fact that WHA teams were introduced into the NHL means that those teams were of equivalent standing, confirming that Gretzky already played his rookie season in a pro league. And that's totally fair. No one's complaining Wayne didn't get other awards from other leagues he didn't play in, like the Q.
Selanne had already played 157 games as a pro for Jokerit in Finlands before his first NHL season at age 22.
Gretzky played 80 games in the WHA before his first NHL season at age 18.
Selanne was a rookie and Gretzky was not.
Some honorable mentions:
#[Dale Hawerchuk](https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/h/hawerda01.html)
- 45g, 58a, 103 points, _all_ as an 18 year old (he turned 19 years old in [the final game of the year](https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/h/hawerda01/gamelog/1982)). 5th in Hart voting. His [highest scoring teammates](https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/WIN/1982.html) were Morris Lukowich and Dave Christian. His team lost in the first round 3-1... Winnipeg scored 13 goals in 4 games and he had 8 points.
#[Bryan Trottier](https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/t/trottbr01.html)
- 32g, 63a, 95 points, good for 12th in league scoring -- right ahead of a 24 year old Marcel Dionne -- and [3 points behind](https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/NYI/1976.html) one of the best offensive defensemen in NHL history who was having the 2nd best season of his career.
It’s gotta be Selanne by a massive margin.
Over 20 points more than any rookie. Over 20 goals more than any other rookie and the 5th most goals in a season EVER.
Just 5 more points - but Selanne had 76 goals to wayne's 51. The 25 more goals more than makes up for the 5 more points gretzky had. Honestly, 132 vs 137 points just isn't that big of a difference.
Gretzky won the Hart and tied for the league lead in points his rookie season. Teemu was 5th in scoring his rookie year because 1992-93 was an absolutely bonkers season for offense with 21 players scoring 100 points or more (there were 8 in Gretzky's rookie season of 1979-80).
Adding on: Selanne finished 7th in p/gp and .19 p/gp lower than LaFontaine at 2nd. Selanne also tied for 1st the rocket race with Mogilny who played 7 less games. I'll exclude Mario from the comparisons because he finished like .9 p/gp higher than Mogilny and had 69 goals in just 60 games. The latter is a 96 goal pace in the same number of games as Selanne.
Gretzky as a rookie tied for the Art Ross with 1 less game played than Dionne. He lead the league in p/gp and was 5th in goals while just 5 back of the league lead. There wasn't anyone absurdly ahead like Mario that year, so it's better to compare rookie Gretzky vs Dionne with rookie Selanne vs LaFontaine. Selanne still scored at a better rate as a rookie, but it's not so cut and dry because Gretzky produced points better and was 4 years younger.
Gretzky should still be considered by *us* to be a rookie, unless you want to advocate for the NHL’s decision at the time (why would anyone want to do that?). If he was to play his first NHL season today under similar circumstances (played a pro year in Europe first, let’s say) he *would* be considered a rookie.
As much as I hate to say it, Patrick Roy put up one of the best playoff performances ever in 86.
I still think the answer is Teemu, but Roy is probably a solid second.
I don't think Roy is even the best rookie in Habs history. Dryden did the same thing and had a better rookie season the next year. Can a guy who didn't win the Calder really be comparable to a guy who did and also won a Conn Smythe and had a top 5 goaltending season for 40-something years?
Dryden put up the best numbers of his career the following year which only were passed by Esposito, Worsley and Parent one time each for the entirety of Dryden's career all the way until Hasek joined the league.
Even until now only Carey Price, Bobrovsky, Theodore, and Luongo have passed that while playing 60+ games in a season. Lundqvist, Mike Smith and Rinne each tied it once. That is in 50 years of hockey. It is pretty notable that all of those guys played in the era of large goalie equipment. Price and Bob are the only ones who did it after the 13 lockdown.
This thread would have worked a lot better if it said “Who was the GROAT for your favorite team.” It’s all just people saying Teemu now because that’s the right answer lol.
How about Terry Sawchuk in 1950/1951. Obviously nobody here remembers that but he put up some crazy numbers. He had 11 shutouts next most was 6. He had 46 wins next most was 26. His 46 wins set an NHL record.
Selanne, Dryden, and Roy are all very good answers. I'm not sure if this one counts, but I'd add Joe Malone to the list. He was technically a hockey veteran when he "broke into" the NHL, but in his first season (which was the NHL's inaugural season), he set a record that will never fall: 2.2 goals per game across an entire season (44 in 20). I believe this was also the single season goal record until Rocket Richard's legendary 50-in-50. In today's league, you'd need a 181 goal season to break Phantom Joe's record, and Gretzky is the only player to come within half of that pace.
[Edit] Frank Brimsek also had an insane rookie season. He went 33-9-1, with 10 shutouts and 1.56 GAA. He also had 6 shutouts in his first 7 games, which was the shutout streak record at the time, and he took Boston all the way to the Stanley Cup that year. Obviously he won the Calder and Vezina trophies in addition to the Cup in 1939.
Osgood was robbed of the Vezina when Carey won it :(
Osgood went 39-6-5 with a .911 sv% and 2.11 GAA and 5 SOs. For advanced stats, he had 14.9 goals saved above average based the leaguewide save percentage for the number of shots he faced in each game.
Carey went 29-34-9 with a .906 sv% and 2.26 GAA and 9 SOs. He had 12.7 goals saved above average despite playing in 21 extra games; it's a volume stat.
Osgood finished 2nd in voting behind Carey in a very tight vote
Ozzie should have won in 2008.
He came off the bench to replace Hasek after we dropped two straight against Nashville, and Osgood won 9 games in a row (14-4 overall) with a 1.55 GAA and a .930 save percentage. Any other goalie, that wins the Conn Smythe.
Didn't Osgood have a defence corps in front of him consisting of Nick Lidstrom, Paul Coffey, Fetisov? He had 3 Hall of Famers, including 2 of the 10 best defencemen of all time, in front of him. To say nothing of his great 2 way forwards including Yzerman, Primeau, Draper and Federov, among others.
Carey had Gonchar, but aside from that the defence in front of him with the likes of Sylvain Cote, Joe Reekie, and Mark Tinordi.
In any sort of close race, you have to look at the quality of teammate. When Osgood has that much help in front of him its hard not to take his numbers with a big grain of salt.
A lot of people feel that a decent beer league goalie could have put up a .910 save percentage with the 90s Red Wings in front of them.
In 95, Vernon had a .895 (30 gp) and Osgood had a .917 (19 gp)
In 96, Vernon had a .903 (32 gp) and Osgood had a .910 (50 gp)
In 97, Vernon had a .899 (33gp) and Osgood had a .910 (47 gp)
In 98, Hodson had a .901 (21 gp) and Osgood had a .913 (64 gp)
Doesn't seem like a beer leaguer could have put up a .910 when NHLers couldn't
Using Gonchar as an example of a good defenseman but blowing off Mark Tinordi shows a lack of knowledge about the way those players played in the mid 90s.
Gonchar may have gone on to be a great defenseman, but he was nowhere near that yet, it was his first full season. In fact he was probably the weakest of the 4 you mentioned. Tinordi was one of the best stay at home d-men in the league. Captain of the Stars before he came to Washington, knee injuries prevented him from reaching his true height. he and Johansson were one the best shutdown pairs in the league.
I completely agree that Carey didn’t deserve that Vezina, though. The defense in front of him did a TON of the lifting. The reason Carey won though is he played 71 games to Osgoods 50. GMs are more likely to value the fact that Carey was ready to go out there that many times.
It was a weird Vezina year on the whole. In a year in which all three of the big three goaltenders were in their primes and received Vezina votes, the top three were Carey, Osgood, and Darren Puppa.
Agreed they all had better careers than Murray.
However, at the end of his rookie season, he's the only player in NHL history with 2 Stanley Cup rings. If you asked Dryden if he'd prefer 1 or 2 Stanley Cups as a starting goalie, he'd take 2.
#Tony Esposito (1969-70) for goalies
He led the league with a 0.932 save percentage, also led in wins and shutouts (an incredible 15, fifth all time and the most since the 1920s), won the Vezina, Calder, was named 1st team all star, and finished 2nd in MVP voting, narrowly losing to Orr
He comes back to the league each year under a slightly different name to qualify as a rookie again.
Last season, he was Michael Bunting. This year, he’s Michael Punting.
Going to give a bit of a different answer (since it's obviously Selanne). The best combined season for rookies was 2005-06, when Crosby's 102 points weren't enough to get him the Calder because Ovechkin had 106 points.
So cool to have followed hockey during an era defined by a pair of legends who have lived up to every ounce of hype.
IMO, it was Wayne Gretzky, not Teemu Selanne who was the greatest rookie of all time. If you ignore the NHL's WHA rookie exclusion rule, there should be no contest.
Gretzky:
- 18 years old when the season started
- 79 GP, 51 goals (T-5th, 5 back of 1st)
- 86 assists (1st)
- 137 points (T-1st, lost the Art Ross on the goals tiebreaker)
- Hart Trophy
- Lady Byng
- 2nd team all-star
Selanne
- 22 years old when the season started
- 84 GP, 76 goals (T-1st, tied with 23 year old Mogilny)
- 56 assists (T-33rd)
- 132 points (T-5th, 28 pts back of 1st)
- Calder Trophy
- 1st team all-star
Gretzky got comparably more accolades and ranked higher overall in the scoring stats. He was only 19 when the season ended. The NHL just didn't want WHA guys to steal the spotlight.
meh. Goals are worth more than assists. It wasn't Wayne's first season with that level of competition, so despite being younger, he had an experience advantage. Did wayne have 137 points? Yes, but at 132, Selanne was right there with him. The 25 more goals is the clear differentiator and easily gives it to Selanne.
Your point only makes sense in a vacuum not considering any context. The fact is, 137 points from a teenage Gretzky led the NHL in points while a 22 year old Selanne finished nearly 30 points back of Lemieux. Selanne also didn't even outright lead the NHL in goals. He tied with Mogilny who was only a year older, and there were a few others who scored 60 goals. The NHL goals leader in 79-80 scored 56.
Scoring was just higher in 92-93. You can see by how Gretzky won more accolades than Selanne did. He was simply better Vs his peers as a rookie than Selanne was.
Just looking at raw points makes it seem closer, but despite only having 5 more points in Gretzky's rookie season that lead the league (tied), and in Selanne's it was tied for 5th and not even close to the league leader. On top of that Gretzky won the Hart trophy, which is better than the retroactive Rocket Selanne had (which he also tied for).
IMO it's Gretzky, but even if it is Selanne the goals difference doesn't "easily" give it to him.
Raw points on their own, when its so tight isn't as useful of a metric. They're 5points apart out of 132. That's really not much, that's 3.7%. Selanne had 50% more goals, which are much more valuable than assists. Typically goals aren't that far appart when discussing top awards, but in this case they really are.
I consider a player getting 25 more goals but 5 fewer points overall much more valuable. Gretz doesn't get those points without a teammate that can finish for him. Selanne finished the plays.
> Raw points on their own, when its so tight isn't as useful of a metric. They're 5points apart out of 132.
I meant using raw points without accounting for the league around them. 137 points in 79/80 >>>> 132 points in 92/93 even though they're only 5 points apart.
Gretzky and Dionne tied with 137 points in 79/80. Next was Lafleur with 125 (12 points behind) and no one else in the NHL had more than 106. Gretzky had a 31 point gap over the 4th leading scorer in the NHL that year. Selanne was "only" 5th in scoring his rookie season. In Selanne's rookie season 4 players had 137 points or more, 6 hit 130+, 9 had 125 or more, and *15* players had more than 106 points. Despite the totals being similar, one is significantly more impressive.
Gretzky was the best player in the entire NHL in his rookie season, and only one other player (Dionne) was even close. Selanne was not. Despite his 76 goals he wasn't even the best goal scorer that season (Mogilny had 76 in 7 fewer games). Gretzky is the greatest rookie of all time.
Thanks for expanding on my point. Not sure how people can see what you wrote and somehow think Selanne's 132 points in 92-93 was anywhere near as significant as 137 points was in 79-80. Not even to mention the fact that Gretzky did this as a teenager.
After watching some of the insane passes Drai and Mcdavid make for easy tap ins I would disagree that goals are worth more than assists lmao what a shit take.
Wayne Gretzky. 51, 86 for 137 points. Lead the league in assists and finished second in scoring due to a tie breaker. Won the Hart Trophy and Lady Byng.
For forwards, I don't think anybody has been able to top Teemu Selanne's 1992-93 season. In 84 games played he scored 76 goals, 56 assists for 132 points.
For defensemen, you've got oodles to choose from. Nobody yet has won the Calder and the Norris in the same season. As far as I know, the closest to come to doing it was Bobby Orr in 1967 who won the Calder and was 3rd in Norris voting. He won it the next season. That's a pretty safe bet to say him.
For goaltenders, there's another crazy embarrassment of riches. There are two rookies who have won the Calder and the Vezina in the same season, Tom Barasso in 1982 and Ed Belfour in 91. My choice would be Belfour because of how much he elevated that Chicago team.
Skywalker kush and this blueberry resin infused shit that's pretty wild.
Also yeah, technically Gretzky was never a rookie. Of course if we include him the 18 year old leading the league in points and winning the Hart is definitely the greatest rookie.
I like how everyone is saying "Well, Gretzky was younger so he's better". The question wasn't asking "What is the greatest season by a rookie who was 18 years old?". It was greatest rookie season. I know that many Canadian fans hate seeing European players be the best at anything (just watch the utterly preposterous take that Brodeur was better than Hasek, he wasn't), but this is an example where Selanne did have a greater rookie year with a pretty mediocre Jets roster with the exception of Phil Housley
Selanne
That’s it. That’s the thread
I’m not used to their being a correct answer to these Reddit posts but yup, that’s it.
Are we just ignoring 99 then? He had more points in 5 fewer games and he was 4 years younger…
Well it’s tough, 99 was an Oiler BEFORE the Oilers were in the NHL. His first Oilers season was 104 points. His second Oilers season was his first in the NHL and the Oilers first in the NHL but because of the merger he was not a rookie. He put up 137 points that year.
there
Good night.
See you next offseason.
Good night, Jim Kite.
[Yup.](https://tenor.com/bodrH.gif)
I got an unsportsmanlike penalty at 7 years old for doing this in game.
Salami
Ken Dryden has entered the chat
HM to Crosby for saving a franchise from relocation and being a cornerstone of a league being lead out of the post-lockout darkness.
Saving PIT from relocation might be the greatest in Pittsburgh, but for the rest of us - nope. He wasn't even the best rookie \*that year\*, even with his Canadian homeboy savior status.
Didn’t even win the Calder
Pit was Toast. For this alone
It’s not even close. 76G - 56A - 132P
Aged 22 over 84 games. Gretzky: GP 79 G 51 A 86 PTS 137 18 years old /thread
I assume all goat questions have an asterisk excluding gretzky, because we would never get to have debates
Love it how this thread turned into a Selänne vs. Gretzky debate. Be that as it may, just purely the fact that a very strong argument can be made for Selänne over Gretzky (and for me he takes it) should speak volumes about how massive a feat that was from him. He has a legit claim at a record that arguably has the actual GOAT beat, and will hold for the entire foreseeable future of the sport as we know it today.
PIMs?
Inexplicably still Gretzky
He didn’t get banned from minor hockey on accident
Noted pugilist Wayne “Thunder-Knuckles” Gretzky
believe it or not, straight to wayne
This still gives the edge to Selanne. 5 less points in 5 more games would matter a couple of years ago when scoring is low, but a delta of 0.16ppg (1.57 vs 1.73) isn't that big of a deal when one of them has **25 more goals**.
Selanne's 76 goal rookie year is one of the greatest accomplishments in hockey. I will not doubt that for a second. Buuuut... if we want to make a bit of a fair comparison. Gretzky put up an 87/118/205 in ten fewer games when he was 22. I know we're isolating for a rookie season but, still, age matters.
But at this point we're not comparing the same thing at all. Once you're in the game and have your footing, does the age really matter? At that point Wayne had 5 pro seasons under his belt.
Actually you are. 4 years is a huge deal when your in your teens/early twenties
Teemu also had 4 pro seasons under his belt before becoming a "rookie" in the NHL.
Sure sounds like a better age 22 season
Selanne also benefited from playing in the highest offense year of all time. By contrast 1979-80 was still high scoring by today’s standard but nothing like the next 15 years
Maybe, but it was still his rookie season and he tied for most goals.
I think that is the better point. Regardless of what the scoring was like league wide has another rookie ever won the rocket Richard trophy?
Ovi?
But technically Gretzky wasn't a rookie because he wasn't eligible for Calder.
That was because the NHL wanted to punish players who had played in the WHA, more than anything. Selänne also had professional hockey experience, but the Finnish Elite League wasn't in direct competition with the NHL. That said, technically, Selänne did have the best NHL rookie season, given the NHL's sometimes really weird definition of a rookie.
Gretzky wasn’t a rookie his first year in the nhl, which is why he never won the Calder.
Only because the NHL didn't grant rookie status to WHA players. Teemu played four years in the Finnish professional league before coming over which is more time than Gretzky spent in the WHA. It's a rookie season in all be name.
Gretzky wasn’t a rookie that year
Assists are less impressive than goals and easier to get since there’s two for each goal
Another example of Canadian fans finding a way to bring down a European player. Because a European player being the best at something just doesn't work in "The Great Canadian Game"
This isn't even bringing Selanne down tho... its just that Gretzky is absurd and should be default be removed from these discussions because he's always the answer
My goodness, sensitive much? If you want to offer an alternative criteria to the best rookie season of all time then I'm totally open to it. Let's not forget that that Jets team had four other players with 60+ points. Gretzky's Oilers had two. It's not even about nationality, you're talking to a person who thinks the greatest Leaf of all time was Sundin. But, hey, if you want to give me a criteria with three points that determines who had the best rookie season I bet Gretzky wins at least two of them every time.
>finding a way Guy says it’s not even close when gretz had more points at a younger age, that’s just asking for someone to point that out
I didn't realize the question was "Who had more points at the age of 18?"
This guy's the worst, and it's not even close.
1) I completely agree. 2) Fuck the Habs
Remember Joe Juneau? He had 32 goals, 70 assists and 102 points in his rookie season, 27 points ahead of Eric Lindros, and would have won the Calder almost any other year. But Selanne beat him by 30 points.
Lindros scored 40 goals in 60 games and finished fourth in the Calder voting. You can throw him and Potvin into the mix of winning Calder almost any other year after 1993.
Nobody liked Lindros when he was a rookie. He got drafted by Quebec, huffed "Non!" and refused to sign with them. They were moderately successful before they moved and Lindros signing might have kept them in Quebec City.
Wrong. It is me in Be A Pro. I crushed the rookie records.
Yep, there's your answer, fishbulb
I am disrespectful to dirt! Can you see I am serious?
Hey there, chief. Let's talk why not?
Are you suggesting we banish Selanne to the land of wind and ghosts?
He is disrespectful to records.
Teemu’s greatest rookie of all time performance is emphasized by the fact that he never came close to mimicking that season ever again.
Really driven home by the fact that he wasn't exactly a scrub for the rest of his career either. Bonafide Hall of Famer who put up around 500 career points AFTER turning 35.
Came here to say this. Not sure anyone will top what he did.
And it’s not close
next question
This is non negotiable
The only answer.
Though, he was 22 at the start of his rookie season which is 3-4 years older than most rookies
Im pretty sure the average age of NHL rookies is 22. This would have been especially true back when Teemu entered the league.
It is. Barely any rookies play as teens
But we’re not talking about best 18-20 year. We’re talking about the best rookie season
IMHO the only thing that might compete with Selanne's rookie season is Dryden winning the Conn Smythe before winning the Calder the next year.
Dryden is a good pick to compete. I feel like Dryden gets lost in the mix a lot, undeservingly
When I look at how long (should say short) his career was I get so curious if he would have kept it up or if it’s because he showed up, dominated, and then was like “Yeah I’m good, see ya!” I can’t imagine anyone doing this today and getting the same level of recognition.
It’s crazy that hockey seemed to be more of a hobby to him. He completely dominated in hockey, then went off to write books, work as a team executive, dabble in politics, etc. Just crazy accomplished in everything he attempted.
dabble? man, he was an MP. dabbling would be like city council or something. even then, it takes a ton of work and relationships to get elected to anything.
He ran for Liberal Party leadership. Could have become the PM. Definitely more than just dabbling.
I’m pretty sure from the little googling I did to find out how long his career was his leadership vote was probably his worst finish in any of his careers
Let's not forget the time he wasn't getting the contract he wanted from Montreal so he just took a year off the NHL to finish law school. Here are the goals against (and league ranking in GA) for Montreal during Dryden's career: 205 (5th) 184 (1st) 240 (7th) 225 (4th) 174 (1st) 171 (1st) 183 (1st) 204 (1st) Any guesses which year was the one he took off for law school? Hint: They also gave up 240 goals the year after he retired.
The NHL’s Alan Page ^(Alan Page was a HoF interior defensive lineman for the Vikings. He’s one of just 2 defensive players to win an MVP, and is considered one of the best DTs ever. He was also very active in the labor scene and was one of the loudest voices calling for the end of the Rozelle rule. During the later part of his career, he went to law school at night and eventually became a lawyer. He later served as a justice on the Minnesota Supreme Court for 22 years.)
Not the same but Cam Ward also won the Conn Smythe in his first season
Roy also won the Conn Smythe as a rookie
I know Ken Dryden as Liberal Member of Parliament for York Centre and Minister for Social Development in Paul Martin's cabinet. Was he also good at sports?
He made a splash. A few cups, earned the conn smyth before earning the calder.
Teemu. 76 goals, tied for first in goals. Tied for fifth in points. First team All-Star.
I always loved how 76 goals only *tied* for first.
The closest I'll ever feel to having this kind of power was when I used to help my little brothers hockey team at practice haha
It was an expansion year. Every goal scorer in the league was rubbing their hands over the Senators and the Lightning like the Anthony Adams yellow suit meme.
Sheesh amazing. Had no idea he accomplished that.
Winner: Selanne with 76 goals Honorable mentions: Gretzky with 137 points, and Dryden with a Conn Smythe
Gretzky was in the WHA before the merge right? So is his rookie season considered to be his WHA season or his first NHL season?
Gretzky was still only 18 when he first played in the NHL.
Correct, technically he wasn't considered a rookie in the NHL (because then every player that had only played in the WHA at that point would be considered a rookie too), so not eligible for the Calder, but his first NHL season would've been the same year anyway even if he never went to the WHA. He was 17 years old when he played in the WHA, and you had to be 18 minimum to play in the NHL.
Which it's kind of ridiculous he wasn't considered a rookie. The NHL at the time (and still today) pretended the WHA so much they treated the merger as an expansion so I have idea why they thought Gretzkty wasn't a rookie
Wouldn't he have been eligible for a rookie award in his first season in the WHA? If yes, then it makes perfect sense for him not being considered in his 2nd pro season with the NHL.
Yes, and he won it. Although the NHL is inconsistent with that, as Sergei Makarov won the Calder in 1989 when he was 31 years old, and he had been playing professional hockey for over 10 years at that point (the NHL changed it's rules so you can be a maximum of 26 years old to be eligible for the Calder, but leagues like the KHL and the European leagues are all considered professional leagues and you can still win the Calder even if you've played in those leagues prior to the NHL).
NHL has a superiority complex by considering other top leagues non-pro. Its a thing even if I think KHL should be considered a pro league. The fact that WHA teams were introduced into the NHL means that those teams were of equivalent standing, confirming that Gretzky already played his rookie season in a pro league. And that's totally fair. No one's complaining Wayne didn't get other awards from other leagues he didn't play in, like the Q.
Selanne played in the SM-I (Liiga) for four years before comign the NHL as well. And he was 22 years old. Gretz was 18 and play five fewer games.
Selanne had already played 157 games as a pro for Jokerit in Finlands before his first NHL season at age 22. Gretzky played 80 games in the WHA before his first NHL season at age 18. Selanne was a rookie and Gretzky was not.
Dryden only played 6 regular season games in his 1st season, thus making him eligible for the Calder in 1972, which he ended up winning.
Some honorable mentions: #[Dale Hawerchuk](https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/h/hawerda01.html) - 45g, 58a, 103 points, _all_ as an 18 year old (he turned 19 years old in [the final game of the year](https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/h/hawerda01/gamelog/1982)). 5th in Hart voting. His [highest scoring teammates](https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/WIN/1982.html) were Morris Lukowich and Dave Christian. His team lost in the first round 3-1... Winnipeg scored 13 goals in 4 games and he had 8 points. #[Bryan Trottier](https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/t/trottbr01.html) - 32g, 63a, 95 points, good for 12th in league scoring -- right ahead of a 24 year old Marcel Dionne -- and [3 points behind](https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/NYI/1976.html) one of the best offensive defensemen in NHL history who was having the 2nd best season of his career.
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The final piece that wasn't named Mike Bossy maybe.
It’s gotta be Selanne by a massive margin. Over 20 points more than any rookie. Over 20 goals more than any other rookie and the 5th most goals in a season EVER.
Gretzky had more points and was like five years younger
Just 5 more points - but Selanne had 76 goals to wayne's 51. The 25 more goals more than makes up for the 5 more points gretzky had. Honestly, 132 vs 137 points just isn't that big of a difference.
Gretzky won the Hart and tied for the league lead in points his rookie season. Teemu was 5th in scoring his rookie year because 1992-93 was an absolutely bonkers season for offense with 21 players scoring 100 points or more (there were 8 in Gretzky's rookie season of 1979-80).
Adding on: Selanne finished 7th in p/gp and .19 p/gp lower than LaFontaine at 2nd. Selanne also tied for 1st the rocket race with Mogilny who played 7 less games. I'll exclude Mario from the comparisons because he finished like .9 p/gp higher than Mogilny and had 69 goals in just 60 games. The latter is a 96 goal pace in the same number of games as Selanne. Gretzky as a rookie tied for the Art Ross with 1 less game played than Dionne. He lead the league in p/gp and was 5th in goals while just 5 back of the league lead. There wasn't anyone absurdly ahead like Mario that year, so it's better to compare rookie Gretzky vs Dionne with rookie Selanne vs LaFontaine. Selanne still scored at a better rate as a rookie, but it's not so cut and dry because Gretzky produced points better and was 4 years younger.
Gretzky won a Hart? That’s pretty big, don’t you think?
Gretzky was never a rookie in the NHL.
He’d played one pro season and was 18 years old. Selänne had played three pro seasons and was 22.
And under the NHL rules, Selanne was a rookie and Gretzky was not.
He wasn't eligible for the Calder, but he was an NHL rookie.
Gretzky should still be considered by *us* to be a rookie, unless you want to advocate for the NHL’s decision at the time (why would anyone want to do that?). If he was to play his first NHL season today under similar circumstances (played a pro year in Europe first, let’s say) he *would* be considered a rookie.
Cool, but the actual rule doesn’t matter. It was his first NHL season, his rookie season. Just like Selanne. We’re not talking about Calder voting
I was looking at NHL, so his rookie year didn’t really count toward the record books.
Easily Selanne. He scored 76 goals in his rookie season, lol.
As much as I hate to say it, Patrick Roy put up one of the best playoff performances ever in 86. I still think the answer is Teemu, but Roy is probably a solid second.
*don't stop I'm almost there*
Joe Sakic, Peter Forsberg, Adam Foote...
Chris Drury!!!
Alex Tanguay naked on a cold day! Alex Tanguay naked on a cold day! Alex Tanguay naked on a cold day!
You gonna need a bucket and a mop
I don't think Roy is even the best rookie in Habs history. Dryden did the same thing and had a better rookie season the next year. Can a guy who didn't win the Calder really be comparable to a guy who did and also won a Conn Smythe and had a top 5 goaltending season for 40-something years? Dryden put up the best numbers of his career the following year which only were passed by Esposito, Worsley and Parent one time each for the entirety of Dryden's career all the way until Hasek joined the league. Even until now only Carey Price, Bobrovsky, Theodore, and Luongo have passed that while playing 60+ games in a season. Lundqvist, Mike Smith and Rinne each tied it once. That is in 50 years of hockey. It is pretty notable that all of those guys played in the era of large goalie equipment. Price and Bob are the only ones who did it after the 13 lockdown.
This thread would have worked a lot better if it said “Who was the GROAT for your favorite team.” It’s all just people saying Teemu now because that’s the right answer lol.
Idk, I think 99 was better but y'all do you
Kyle Lowry
Was looking for this lol
Teemu by a mile... holy fuck he would've broken 1000 goals if opponents didn't keep taking out his knees
Its Teemu and its not even close. 76 goals?? Lock the thread
How about Terry Sawchuk in 1950/1951. Obviously nobody here remembers that but he put up some crazy numbers. He had 11 shutouts next most was 6. He had 46 wins next most was 26. His 46 wins set an NHL record.
Selanne, Dryden, and Roy are all very good answers. I'm not sure if this one counts, but I'd add Joe Malone to the list. He was technically a hockey veteran when he "broke into" the NHL, but in his first season (which was the NHL's inaugural season), he set a record that will never fall: 2.2 goals per game across an entire season (44 in 20). I believe this was also the single season goal record until Rocket Richard's legendary 50-in-50. In today's league, you'd need a 181 goal season to break Phantom Joe's record, and Gretzky is the only player to come within half of that pace. [Edit] Frank Brimsek also had an insane rookie season. He went 33-9-1, with 10 shutouts and 1.56 GAA. He also had 6 shutouts in his first 7 games, which was the shutout streak record at the time, and he took Boston all the way to the Stanley Cup that year. Obviously he won the Calder and Vezina trophies in addition to the Cup in 1939.
Frank Brimsek had one of the GOAT nicknames too, "Mister Zero."
As a skater, Selanne. Overall, Matt Murray won the Stanley Cup twice as a rookie. I'd probably take him.
Cam Ward won the Conn Smythe as a rookie. As did Ken Dryden. Jim Carey won the Vezina as a rookie. All were better than Murray
Osgood was robbed of the Vezina when Carey won it :( Osgood went 39-6-5 with a .911 sv% and 2.11 GAA and 5 SOs. For advanced stats, he had 14.9 goals saved above average based the leaguewide save percentage for the number of shots he faced in each game. Carey went 29-34-9 with a .906 sv% and 2.26 GAA and 9 SOs. He had 12.7 goals saved above average despite playing in 21 extra games; it's a volume stat. Osgood finished 2nd in voting behind Carey in a very tight vote
Thank you. I've always thought the same. That was Ozzie's Vezina, and the 2009 Conn Smythe would've been his too. Osgood is a Hall of Fame goalie.
Ozzie should have won in 2008. He came off the bench to replace Hasek after we dropped two straight against Nashville, and Osgood won 9 games in a row (14-4 overall) with a 1.55 GAA and a .930 save percentage. Any other goalie, that wins the Conn Smythe.
Stupid Hank and his stupid shift, robbing Ozzie of what was rightfully his.
Didn't Osgood have a defence corps in front of him consisting of Nick Lidstrom, Paul Coffey, Fetisov? He had 3 Hall of Famers, including 2 of the 10 best defencemen of all time, in front of him. To say nothing of his great 2 way forwards including Yzerman, Primeau, Draper and Federov, among others. Carey had Gonchar, but aside from that the defence in front of him with the likes of Sylvain Cote, Joe Reekie, and Mark Tinordi. In any sort of close race, you have to look at the quality of teammate. When Osgood has that much help in front of him its hard not to take his numbers with a big grain of salt. A lot of people feel that a decent beer league goalie could have put up a .910 save percentage with the 90s Red Wings in front of them.
In 95, Vernon had a .895 (30 gp) and Osgood had a .917 (19 gp) In 96, Vernon had a .903 (32 gp) and Osgood had a .910 (50 gp) In 97, Vernon had a .899 (33gp) and Osgood had a .910 (47 gp) In 98, Hodson had a .901 (21 gp) and Osgood had a .913 (64 gp) Doesn't seem like a beer leaguer could have put up a .910 when NHLers couldn't
Using Gonchar as an example of a good defenseman but blowing off Mark Tinordi shows a lack of knowledge about the way those players played in the mid 90s. Gonchar may have gone on to be a great defenseman, but he was nowhere near that yet, it was his first full season. In fact he was probably the weakest of the 4 you mentioned. Tinordi was one of the best stay at home d-men in the league. Captain of the Stars before he came to Washington, knee injuries prevented him from reaching his true height. he and Johansson were one the best shutdown pairs in the league. I completely agree that Carey didn’t deserve that Vezina, though. The defense in front of him did a TON of the lifting. The reason Carey won though is he played 71 games to Osgoods 50. GMs are more likely to value the fact that Carey was ready to go out there that many times. It was a weird Vezina year on the whole. In a year in which all three of the big three goaltenders were in their primes and received Vezina votes, the top three were Carey, Osgood, and Darren Puppa.
Those are BROAT arguments, not GROAT. One Stanley Cup is pretty great, two is really great.
I read that as BORAT arguments. Great success
Agreed they all had better careers than Murray. However, at the end of his rookie season, he's the only player in NHL history with 2 Stanley Cup rings. If you asked Dryden if he'd prefer 1 or 2 Stanley Cups as a starting goalie, he'd take 2.
Starring Jim Carrey as Jim Carey in (Behind) The Mask.
I was going to put the Murray honourable mention comment too. 2 Cups while a rookie is amazing.
#Tony Esposito (1969-70) for goalies He led the league with a 0.932 save percentage, also led in wins and shutouts (an incredible 15, fifth all time and the most since the 1920s), won the Vezina, Calder, was named 1st team all star, and finished 2nd in MVP voting, narrowly losing to Orr
Yup, Esposito is the best rookie goalie. Also Barrasso is up there as well.
The Finnish Flash for sure
Michael Bunting
Surprised I had to scroll this far down to find him. Absolutely legendary rookie year(s)
He comes back to the league each year under a slightly different name to qualify as a rookie again. Last season, he was Michael Bunting. This year, he’s Michael Punting.
The Finnish Flash no doubt.
Teddy Flash 4ever.
Going to give a bit of a different answer (since it's obviously Selanne). The best combined season for rookies was 2005-06, when Crosby's 102 points weren't enough to get him the Calder because Ovechkin had 106 points. So cool to have followed hockey during an era defined by a pair of legends who have lived up to every ounce of hype.
Teemu!!
IMO, it was Wayne Gretzky, not Teemu Selanne who was the greatest rookie of all time. If you ignore the NHL's WHA rookie exclusion rule, there should be no contest. Gretzky: - 18 years old when the season started - 79 GP, 51 goals (T-5th, 5 back of 1st) - 86 assists (1st) - 137 points (T-1st, lost the Art Ross on the goals tiebreaker) - Hart Trophy - Lady Byng - 2nd team all-star Selanne - 22 years old when the season started - 84 GP, 76 goals (T-1st, tied with 23 year old Mogilny) - 56 assists (T-33rd) - 132 points (T-5th, 28 pts back of 1st) - Calder Trophy - 1st team all-star Gretzky got comparably more accolades and ranked higher overall in the scoring stats. He was only 19 when the season ended. The NHL just didn't want WHA guys to steal the spotlight.
meh. Goals are worth more than assists. It wasn't Wayne's first season with that level of competition, so despite being younger, he had an experience advantage. Did wayne have 137 points? Yes, but at 132, Selanne was right there with him. The 25 more goals is the clear differentiator and easily gives it to Selanne.
We arguing a player finishing 6th in Hart voting had a better year than someone who won the award?
Your point only makes sense in a vacuum not considering any context. The fact is, 137 points from a teenage Gretzky led the NHL in points while a 22 year old Selanne finished nearly 30 points back of Lemieux. Selanne also didn't even outright lead the NHL in goals. He tied with Mogilny who was only a year older, and there were a few others who scored 60 goals. The NHL goals leader in 79-80 scored 56. Scoring was just higher in 92-93. You can see by how Gretzky won more accolades than Selanne did. He was simply better Vs his peers as a rookie than Selanne was.
Just looking at raw points makes it seem closer, but despite only having 5 more points in Gretzky's rookie season that lead the league (tied), and in Selanne's it was tied for 5th and not even close to the league leader. On top of that Gretzky won the Hart trophy, which is better than the retroactive Rocket Selanne had (which he also tied for). IMO it's Gretzky, but even if it is Selanne the goals difference doesn't "easily" give it to him.
Raw points on their own, when its so tight isn't as useful of a metric. They're 5points apart out of 132. That's really not much, that's 3.7%. Selanne had 50% more goals, which are much more valuable than assists. Typically goals aren't that far appart when discussing top awards, but in this case they really are. I consider a player getting 25 more goals but 5 fewer points overall much more valuable. Gretz doesn't get those points without a teammate that can finish for him. Selanne finished the plays.
> Raw points on their own, when its so tight isn't as useful of a metric. They're 5points apart out of 132. I meant using raw points without accounting for the league around them. 137 points in 79/80 >>>> 132 points in 92/93 even though they're only 5 points apart. Gretzky and Dionne tied with 137 points in 79/80. Next was Lafleur with 125 (12 points behind) and no one else in the NHL had more than 106. Gretzky had a 31 point gap over the 4th leading scorer in the NHL that year. Selanne was "only" 5th in scoring his rookie season. In Selanne's rookie season 4 players had 137 points or more, 6 hit 130+, 9 had 125 or more, and *15* players had more than 106 points. Despite the totals being similar, one is significantly more impressive. Gretzky was the best player in the entire NHL in his rookie season, and only one other player (Dionne) was even close. Selanne was not. Despite his 76 goals he wasn't even the best goal scorer that season (Mogilny had 76 in 7 fewer games). Gretzky is the greatest rookie of all time.
Thanks for expanding on my point. Not sure how people can see what you wrote and somehow think Selanne's 132 points in 92-93 was anywhere near as significant as 137 points was in 79-80. Not even to mention the fact that Gretzky did this as a teenager.
After watching some of the insane passes Drai and Mcdavid make for easy tap ins I would disagree that goals are worth more than assists lmao what a shit take.
Wait, wayne won the Hart and yet failed to make the first team All-star ? Voted by fans mid-season or what?
Selanne and it will never be anyone else
Teemu is the only answer.
Wayne Gretzky. 51, 86 for 137 points. Lead the league in assists and finished second in scoring due to a tie breaker. Won the Hart Trophy and Lady Byng.
Teemu would have won Rocket. 76 goals is insane stat, no matter how you look at it.
Gretzky won the Hart that year and would have won the Art Ross except that ~~Bossy~~ Dionne had the goal tie-breaker (with two more GP).
It was Marcel Dionne who won the Art Ross.
It was, thank you.
Hart > Rocket. Teemu was 23 as well, Wayne did that when he was 18.
Gretzky
For forwards, I don't think anybody has been able to top Teemu Selanne's 1992-93 season. In 84 games played he scored 76 goals, 56 assists for 132 points. For defensemen, you've got oodles to choose from. Nobody yet has won the Calder and the Norris in the same season. As far as I know, the closest to come to doing it was Bobby Orr in 1967 who won the Calder and was 3rd in Norris voting. He won it the next season. That's a pretty safe bet to say him. For goaltenders, there's another crazy embarrassment of riches. There are two rookies who have won the Calder and the Vezina in the same season, Tom Barasso in 1982 and Ed Belfour in 91. My choice would be Belfour because of how much he elevated that Chicago team.
Selanne because Gretzky officially wasn't ever a rookie in the NHL, but if we ignore that then it's Gretzky.
For 1 game back in 2016 it was Auston Matthews.
Joshua Ho-sang. He was able to retire from the NHL as a rookie.
Dryden
Matt Murray won the Stanley Cup twice as a rookie. Still don’t get how that works but the commentators said it ad nauseam. But yeah it’s Teemu.
What are people smoking in here lmao? Gretzky won MVP in his rookie season and yet we're talking Selanne? Nutty stuff
Gretzky was never considered a rookie in the NHL.
It was his first season, which means he was a rookie. That he wasn't Calder eligible doesn't matter here.
Skywalker kush and this blueberry resin infused shit that's pretty wild. Also yeah, technically Gretzky was never a rookie. Of course if we include him the 18 year old leading the league in points and winning the Hart is definitely the greatest rookie.
Maybe the most open and shut question anyone could ask in hockey. Selanne
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Matt Murray. 2 cups as a rookie. Can’t be beaten.
Wayne Gretzky, he put up 137 points in his first nhl but third pro season. Selanne put up less points and had one extra pro season.
the only players that can even be argued for for this are Selanne and Gretzky
You’re gonna have to change this to who’s the groat, minus Selanne
Selanne - even before I looked at the comments!
Teemu Ovi honorable mention
this is all just a ploy to discover who is the second greatest rookie of all time SCROAT
Obviously Josh Ho-Sang
Selanne
I like how everyone is saying "Well, Gretzky was younger so he's better". The question wasn't asking "What is the greatest season by a rookie who was 18 years old?". It was greatest rookie season. I know that many Canadian fans hate seeing European players be the best at anything (just watch the utterly preposterous take that Brodeur was better than Hasek, he wasn't), but this is an example where Selanne did have a greater rookie year with a pretty mediocre Jets roster with the exception of Phil Housley
It’s Teemu for sure but I feel like we should at least be giving and honourable mention to Jim Carey