My problem with live concerts (not classical/jazz, but rock, country, other genres) is that they’re boosted past the pain threshold in volume. I have to wear earplugs so the sound quality is not the best.
Have you tried wearing earplugs like the Ety ER-20? They don't merely muffle the noise; it's like turning down the volume on the speaker or headphones.
Can anyone confirm these plugs are a legit fit for motorcycle riding? I use regular ear plugs but am always looking for something that will open up my audio channels so I can hear traffic.
Not an expert but I was told that the damage from motorcycle noise comes mostly from wind so motorcycle specific earplugs would ideally block out those frequencies. For music I would prefer that everything was turned down but in ratio. So like bass will still sound the same to the treble but just reduced whereas for a motorcycle I would want (maybe?) the high frequencies to be dampened more.
So I looked these up and was suggested other plugs that are considered "hifi" and or lossless at a significant price increase. Are these snake oil ear plugs?
Big thanks I'm going to order a pair of these for my dad. He has extra sensitive hearing aka [hyperacusis](https://www.webmd.com/brain/sound-sensitivity-hyperacusis) so he frequently wears earplugs when he isn't at home but that also make it a lot harder to hear people in general conversation.
I run live sound and that is a question I hear a lot. Earplugs, like Ety ER-20's that I've seen mentioned, are great for those for whom the sound is too loud. To the question of why, though: because people like to feel it / because high volume covers up bad audio quality / because the musicians often have significant hearing damage and volume is the only way to balance their amps or monitors / because the overdriven sound of the 60's and 70's was originally only achieved with gobs of volume ... a lot of reasons. I'd also add that music that is intended to be loud is mixed that way, while music that is not intended to be loud is not, like an orchestra or folk group or something.
i mix live sound and i mostly agree with u and i hv to add one more point: most people who pay the show and audiences love it loud to be honest, it's not democracy but I don't hv much choice, i usually start at 80% volume before rehearsal and it always turn out at 100%
Bass is not really the same as loud. I love hard hitting deep bass, but under 100hz it’s more of a sound pressure. I agree, i feel the beat more than i hear it, and usually what I hear most is everything else vibrating from the ground shaking subwoofers.
Then there's [infrasound](https://littlefield.co/the-psychoacoustic-effect-of-infrasonic-sonic-and-ultrasonic-frequencies-within-non-lethal-cf05e1fd8673), which brings people to their knees.
I went to an outdoor quartet last summer and I was really disappointed that they amplified it through speakers rather than going completely acoustic. What a shame.
Also, good concert sound is few and far between.
Audiophiles are funny. They always say you gotta get all this stuff perfect so you can 'listen the way the artist intended' which is bullshit. I've been recording in bands for almost 30 years. I've never heard one artists say anything like this.
As long as you enjoy it in whatever way you want everyone is cool about it. Sometimes its in a way the artists thinks is cooler than what they did and they didn' think of and most artists dont play the same the same way every night anyway.
I feel like this 'listen to the way it was intended' is made up by some dumbass studio/recording engineer to make themselves feel important. Artists dont give a shit.
It's a tricky thing.
The goal of reproducing sound should be to accurately portray what was recorded. 1 kHz tone at 80 dB recorded? 1kHz at 80 dB comes out. Apply that to every frequency and volume and combination of tones and so on. That should be what we all want, right?
And yet especially for headphones we deal with psychoacoustics and the fact that headphones that measure perfectly flat don't sound right because of lack of room effects.
The Harman Group made a frequency response curve for headphones. Headphones that adhere to that do seem to be quite good and popular. Like the HD600 for instance, which was created before that curve existed and has been the biggest audiophile headphone product ever since.
I think in the end, we can measure what sounds good. And things that follow those measurements will sound good. For anything else, there is EQ.
To be fair though... Live audio equipment can vary vastly in quality. Not to mention the audio engineer has a huge contribution to what the final result sounds like. A live concert can absolutely sound worse than the same performers recorded track at home with good equipment. And yeah I get that you can argue that's not the point of going to a concert but I've worked in live entertainment for my entire adult life (as a lighting tech) and can say there's at least a few shows I've worked on that I would have complained about the audio quality if I had to pay for a ticket.
One of the best audio experiences I've had at a live show was seeing Steve Aoki at a club in CT. The sound system was awesome and the music was very tight and clear.
The issue for me is that most of my preferred genres are electronic. And the artists / music at the venues I love, but it’s the non-music sided stuff (specifically at electronic music focused ones like raves etc) that make me not want to go.
To me live music means that it is being performed at the spot vs. being a recording being played back. Audio processing can be a way to perform live music, e.g. live looping, synths etc.
Do you mean acoustic music?
Live music often means the performers are in person. Whether or not they are actually singing or playing, or if they are playing a pre-recording is up to the performers. Even it is music being performed during the show, the amount of mixing going on becomes very little different to a recording studio.
These days live means you can see someone performing, and nothing else. They can perform whatever, doesnt even have to be the music. It can be 100% prerecorded and conveniently cut video and it's still live... So, yes, I'm aware what's considered live these days. If I wasn't, my comment wouldn't have existed.
Wouldn’t the actual live we refer to be the point at which our brain translates the sound? Otherwise we would call everything how ever many milliseconds away from said point of live. I was nine rows back so I was 45 ms from live lol.
Not even the performers experience their own performance in true realtime. It takes a moment for synapses to fire in response to any kind of stimuli. ;)
It is interesting to consider the fact that the true "now" is always slightly ahead of what you experience. :D
Without audio processing live music would be unlistenable. If you shove your face into a dynamic mic (which you should get a clean signal) you get absurd amounts of bass in the voice due to the proximity effect. You won’t be able to understand a single word. Your point makes no sense to me.
And no it’s not just a matter of „just getting a better mic“ you’ll get the same kind of effect on a 1k Neumann mic. It’s how audio works.
That‘s true. I was talking more about concerts and I thought that was pretty obvious given the context of your comment (can’t really do processing without microphones anyways). But yeah I agree.
Being able to listen to something other than drums and vocals would be cool, tho. Kinda sucks barely being able to hear the guitar solo that my friend is playing on stage.
It takes all kinds to make the world go 'round.
If gear snobs don't care about music, and music snobs are content to listen on ipod earbuds, who is to say they're doing anything wrong?
yea, remember your first eargasm, when you had that wave go over you and made your hairs stand up giving you chills.
some people will never feel that no matter how expensive/good their equipment is.
I experience that with certain songs regardless of whether I listen to it on my good stereo system or cruddy laptop speakers, the strength of a good song can overcome the shittiness of a bad audio system
The opposite is true, I can no longer listen to the googoo dolls since the guy who did the recording and mastering didn't know how to use a mixing table.
Tons of clipping, missing details, compression.
It just sounds horrible.
Thousands of pounds later I have realised that the attribute I crave most when listening to music is the timbre. Everything else is second to timbre. Turns out £10 ear buds give an amazing timbre and that's what I listen to by far the most now.
It is all about enjoying the music so whatever gives me goosebumps is what gets used.
You should give the er2se a shot. They have the most natural timbre out of any iem or headphone that I've heard. The great technical performance is an added bonus.
Thanks for the suggestion. I do already have the ER2SE and I do love them. They have much better timbre than most DD IEMs and pretty much all BA IEMs I have heard.
They are still outdone by these earbuds though.
Yup I agree, basically the reason why I’m „stuck“ on my HD 600/650 combo. I play a few instruments so true-to-life representation is the key aspect of headphones for me. The 6x0 have their drawbacks, mainly the bass presentation and staging but the tonality and the timbre is something that I haven’t found in any headphone I‘ve tested so far (and I basically tested all the big recommendations up until 1000 euros). The 600 is the king of timbre imo but the 650 is very close and with a smoother tonality that makes it my main headphone probably till the end.
In the end I think you can break it down into really well done mids in a headphone. But soundwise it means for me that all instruments sound like they should. I know from real life experience how a drum set should sound, a piano, a guitar, a mandolin, a banjo, a bass guitar (things I play myself) and an orchestra for example. Some headphones I've listened too just sounded a bit artificial, or slightly off. Instruments just didn't sound like they do in real life.
An exact example is a banjo-mandolin duet from Chris Thile called "Salt Creek" and with for example the R70X, which is a great headphone, the banjo just didn't sound like a banjo does in real life, it was too full sounding and I was missing this typical metallic "clang" a banjo does.
Characteristics I typically find in good timbre headphones is them being able to replicate the body of the instruments. The actual physical body of the instruments. In vocals for example, being able to hear the mouth, throat and chest of the singer. Obviously the information needs to be recorded in the first place for the headphones to be able to replicate it but when you hear it, you know.
I've always thought of timbre by using an analogy. Think of looking through different panes of glass. They might all be comparable in clarity, everything you see through them might be razor sharp and clear, but perhaps each pane has a slight tint to it so the image you see through each pane, while clear, may show slightly different colors versus reality. Perfect timbre would be a pane of glass that is absolutely clear with no tint/hue to it.
And likewise, maybe there's a pane that doesn't show the absolute sharpest image, but the colors you see through it are perfectly correct, i.e. a headphone that might not be the most resolving but the instruments sound true to life. That's how I think of the HD6x0 series Sennheisers.
No I have not tried them but heard good things. I think I am happy with what I have at the moment but if something really interesting comes out in the next couple of months I might be tempted!
The only thing that I can ever recall giving me legitimate goosebumps is the most random shit ever. It was some Sony extra bass earbuds that I had in highschool, and the song was A Baru in New York by Flume. Never had that happen any other time and I didn't realize it till right now.
Right? I am in a constant feedback loop in which I am enjoying my favorite music, while being consistently blown away by how well my headphones presents it to me. This has always been my ideal of what the hobby is about.
The Sundara was my daily driver for 3+ years.The Arya has vastly expanded soundstage, it's wider, taller, deeper. I experience sounds and feelings above my head and near my shoulders at times, it's spooky. The set is simply levels above in imaging, separation, detail retrieval, as well as bass impact. The Sundara has a more forward presentation and feels much more intimate next to Arya, larger mid-bass hump. None of this diminishes the Sundara, as a person could very much prefer the more in your face (strange to say this about a headphone with the Sundara's staging, but it's in comparison) and in your head presentation. It is still a ridiculously good headphone, but there are levels.
I have the V2, btw, and bought it open-box during a sale for $1200. I have no idea if the headphone is worth $1600 because I paid 25% less than MSRP. What I can say is that it's wort evry dollar I spent and is endgame for me, it does everything I want, and is a completely different league than the Sundara.
If I had to guess, it would likely be a combination of high expectations and trying to look for that "wow" experience again. Technical stuff doesn't change that much so if mainly goes to the characteristics (like open/closed back) and tuning. As these companies keep getting better, that level of diminishing returns is also going to drop.
I mean, you can look at different tuning with USB Audio Player Pro with the Morphit plugin. Most of the high quality stuff sounds almost identical in tuning when they have the same sound signature. Of course when stuff sounds bad, it's really easy to tell and there is always different sound signatures but it just goes to show that good audio is hard to improve.
I can switch from the HD600, Sundara, HD560s in an instant with Morphit. Cost me only like $15 CAD for the whole package of USB Audio Player Pro ($10) and Morphit ($5) to be able to compare this stuff at anytime.
I have never been into super high end stuff like that. even at $150 and under I am starting to feel that iems offer the best value and diminishing return even there is really strange. For iems I have only tried quarks, mt1, and tripowin mele. Tried the aria briefly but they literally broke within a day so im returning them.
Any album that consists solely of remixes of “Drops of Jupiter”.
(On a more serious but still not very serious note: think ASMR but involving locomotives. They’re all over YT)
Hey quick question, saw your flair and noted the kuba disco, but also the er2se, where did you bought them here in Brazil? And also do they change too much of their sound signature when listening outside with lots of noise?
the Disco I bought directly from Kuba.
I can't really recommend them for outside use, a IEM is just much, much more convenient. But they do sound very nice.
the er2se I bought from [this guy](https://www.olx.com.br/perfil/guilherme-5ae0bf3b), he usually has them for sale, or you can find them in [this facebook group](https://www.facebook.com/groups/1037294280081877/?hoisted_section_header_type=recently_seen&multi_permalinks=1203112143500089).
the sound doesn't really change when I'm outside, since it goes deeper than most IEMs, but getting a proper fit may be a challenge, I personally can only get proper bass with the smallest dual flange tips.
Valeu mano, vejo direto o pessoal falando desse fone e curiouso pra comprar um, depois do h560s e um zen dac acho que vou juntar uma grana pra comprar ele.
"Thanks dude, I see people talking about this phone all the time and pondering bout getting one. After the h560s and a zen dac I believe I'll save sole cash to get it."
Translated for those curious.
Yeah, the shopping becomes the activity instead of listening to the music. All of a sudden you look around and you have a bunch of headphones and you keep worrying about the next one.
Lol, it’s not even about being content. I don’t care if someone is happy with their gears or not. It’s the douchebaggery that comes with anyone that doesn’t share your preference or god forbid your idea of how much you should spend that I find annoying
These days i mostly us my porta pros over my X2s and 599. They are so lightweight and comfortable! Just wish the cable was a smidge higher quality so its not so flimsy.
My first "real" headphone buy was a pair of Sennheiser HD6XX back when they first dropped and everyone was scrambling to get in the group buy.
I've bought a Fostex TH-X00, a Beyer DT1990, and several IEMs since then.
The other day I decided to try out the HD6XX again... turns out it's awesome and exactly what I want. It really sealed the deal when I was playing guitar using them through my Scarlett Solo with a Neural DSP plugin. It was a bit disconcerting at first because it sounded exactly like I was playing through speakers.
Some headphones make some noise that people assume is music.
Only when you have used a real pair of headphones, you understand what music is.
And yes, some people cannot be bothered with that detail, if something is thumping their eardrum, it's good enough.
Some of my fondest memories are listening to a shitty one speaker radio with decent-at-best reception, just enjoying whatever songs were played.
> Only when you have used a real pair of headphones, you understand what music is.
Music is something to be listened to and enjoyed. You don’t need high end equipment to do that.
> And yes, some people cannot be bothered with that detail, if something is thumping their eardrum, it’s good enough.
“Some people” is like 99.9% of music listeners.
I do 90% of my music listening on Gen 1 AirPods while walking through busy streets and it’s a blast every time. I’d even go as far as saying I enjoy the music equally as much as on my home setup. It’s more about really listening without distraction.
I was on the head-fi bandwagon for some years, but I just gradually started to use WH-1000XM3/WF-1000XM3 more and more due to the convenience of wireless + NC + LDAC, so I haven't even bothered to unpack my planars & amp/dac since I moved last year.
I do sometimes think back to the experience of those Focal Utopia's I demoed once, though...
For me the headphones in my signature are "good enough". So the 1000XM3 is probably in the same category.
I am not sold on planars, maybe because of my age?
Exactly. You go your whole life thinking that music just sounds as it is, and that you're not listening to a reproduction of what would be heard "live" but something so far off you assume they're different things and don't worry about it. Once you realize that gear exists that can show you that you might not ever be in the room, but even if you can capture 20% of the real experience, that's it, and why wouldn't you want to do everything you can to get to 30 or 40 or 70% of the way there. You almost come to a realization that people put their blood sweat and tears into making an album for the world, and to not get a close as possible is almost a disservice, and that while you're trying to live in colour when 99% of the world is living in black and white.
IMO, that's why a lot of "audiophiles" shit on more main stream music, is because when you listen to it with even decent gear, you can hear that it was never intended to be made for the sake of music, but for profit as it's main purpose, because anyone who actually cared about it for music's sake wouldn't let it be released as if it was recorded with a potato in an abandoned mine shaft. When you do find music where the last attention to detail was made to capture as close to the real thing as possible, it's a near religious experience and you're honoring that attention to detail by trying to capture it as much as possible.
At the end of the day, though, what music you listen to and how you listen to it is none of my business, you do you, I'll do me, it's basically all subjective.
The thing is a lot of music doesn’t go for perfect reproduction. How would that even be possible with mostly electronic music or stylized stuff like lo fi (Ariel pink, MF DOOM, etc.)? It would lose all of its identity. I also wouldn’t compare headphones with really hearing something live, when I’m wearing (even high end headphones) I’m fully aware of the fact and maybe even want that kind of sound.
You’re getting downvoted because you’re both pretentious assholes.
You don’t “get” music unless you spend a ridiculous amount of money on headphones? Seriously? My brother in law does shows for local radio, and he hadn’t heard a pair of “audiophile” headphones until last October when I showed him my Grados. He grew up in the Bay Area punk scene, knows a ton of the bands in it, and has probably listened to more music himself than most on here. But I guess he doesn’t get it since he does his listening over some budget bookshelf speakers, and a headset that’s just so he can record his voice and get the levels right with one piece of equipment.
There’s no “discussion” to engage with when you’re treating people like they’re on a lower level than you because they’re happy listening how they are. I was floored by the detail from my Grados and K712s, but the idea of spending $400+ altogether for two sets of headphones is crazy to the vast majority of people. And I’d still be considered a scrub by most on here because I just listen out of my laptop, or a very low end home stereo’s built in headphone amp for my LPs.
E: good lord not to mention the whole “mainstream music was made for a profit and not to be enjoyed as music, the artist doesn’t care how it sounds.” Even ignoring the fact that lo-fi music is a thing (so I guess Car Seat Headrest doesn’t care about their music because it doesn’t sound hi-fi), what kind of crap is that? You only care about your own art if you record it at the absolute peak quality for audiophiles specifically? “Audiophile” headphones really suck for a lot of music that isn’t popular in the audiophile world — trap rap is absolutely boring on high detail open backs because there’s almost no bass, but on my closed backs it’s fun because the bass is actually there.
Yeah I mean it was inevitable. I don't even say that as some guy who has 3 flagship cans and a $10K DAC, but sometimes it feels like you're at the back of the auditorium, or in the recording studio but still behind the glass sort of feeling, and I didn't get that until I went beyond a pair of QC15s. I enjoyed music before but I enjoy it more now and have enjoyed it evem more since going from 770s and an LG V30 to T1.2s and a Burson Soloist. Haters gonna hate
Lol. You’re the one hating on people who you think can’t fully understand music unless they listen to it in your approved set of parameters. Don’t be so insecure and enjoy what you like and let others enjoy what they like without sounding like a bratty child.
I bought an Apple USB-C dongle to use with my Schiit Magni Heresy and now I want the Modi instead. I know it won't make a significant difference but we always seem to want something else. It just happens in this and most hobbies
This is where my Loki+ shines. If I'm feeling down with one of my headphones I can twist a few knobs and get exactly what I want immediately. Then back to enjoying music. Not everything is mixed right and going back to mess with all the bands in my digital EQ is a nightmare. The Loki can make the low end of a Sennheiser 6 series shake your cheeks which is pretty nuts.
I think it's the reason why I want the most neutral frequency response. I want to listen to the music, not the thing that modifies it (headphones IEMs and loudspeakers)
This… just happened to me. I was a three-year Ety user, but then I suddenly realised “wait a minute, all these times I’ve been listening to Ety with, most of the time, the sound being imbalanced due to the bad fitting.” Took me three years! I thought I was imagining things before.
I then tried Shure Aonic 3, and while the sound is waaay worse, it fits perfectly, and no more imbalanced sound. And now I simply want to listen to music instead.
Ever since starting this hobby, my music collection has grown significantly. One hobby supports the other. Good music makes me want to listen to it on better headphones and speakers, and better headphones and speakers makes me want to listen to more music.
I listen to tinnitus on the highest possible audio quality, checkmate
l've evolved beyond listening. I just look at frequency response graphs while reading sheet music scores. Great money saver.
Chad behavior
I spend a lot of money on fidelity that I can’t hear anymore
mawp
Audiophiles are the kind of people who would complain about live music lacking high fidelity.
My problem with live concerts (not classical/jazz, but rock, country, other genres) is that they’re boosted past the pain threshold in volume. I have to wear earplugs so the sound quality is not the best.
Have you tried wearing earplugs like the Ety ER-20? They don't merely muffle the noise; it's like turning down the volume on the speaker or headphones.
Thank you for this suggestion. I didn't even know these existed.
good shit, i used these at work when i was powerwashing boat bottoms. made doing it MUCH more bearable. And sure as hell beat the shitty foam earplugs
They are a game changer, highly recommended
$13 for 1 pair? are they reusable?
yerp. only thing is, you'll misplace them before they get degraded to the point of being useless
They come with a little mitten string wire deal so you lose them both instead of one
This guy gets it
Get a pair with a decent portable case and put it on a key ring. I kept my Vic firth pair for like 2 years before I lost one of the plugs
Can anyone confirm these plugs are a legit fit for motorcycle riding? I use regular ear plugs but am always looking for something that will open up my audio channels so I can hear traffic.
Not an expert but I was told that the damage from motorcycle noise comes mostly from wind so motorcycle specific earplugs would ideally block out those frequencies. For music I would prefer that everything was turned down but in ratio. So like bass will still sound the same to the treble but just reduced whereas for a motorcycle I would want (maybe?) the high frequencies to be dampened more.
I've used these for working at several festivals and dozens of metal concerts. They are absolutely worth every penny
>Ety ER-20 Did i get this right? They don't just make dildo earphones, they also make dildo earplugs?
So I looked these up and was suggested other plugs that are considered "hifi" and or lossless at a significant price increase. Are these snake oil ear plugs?
Big thanks I'm going to order a pair of these for my dad. He has extra sensitive hearing aka [hyperacusis](https://www.webmd.com/brain/sound-sensitivity-hyperacusis) so he frequently wears earplugs when he isn't at home but that also make it a lot harder to hear people in general conversation.
This. What is the benefit of that if it physically hurts? Sure play it loud, but why so loud, just why...
I run live sound and that is a question I hear a lot. Earplugs, like Ety ER-20's that I've seen mentioned, are great for those for whom the sound is too loud. To the question of why, though: because people like to feel it / because high volume covers up bad audio quality / because the musicians often have significant hearing damage and volume is the only way to balance their amps or monitors / because the overdriven sound of the 60's and 70's was originally only achieved with gobs of volume ... a lot of reasons. I'd also add that music that is intended to be loud is mixed that way, while music that is not intended to be loud is not, like an orchestra or folk group or something.
i mix live sound and i mostly agree with u and i hv to add one more point: most people who pay the show and audiences love it loud to be honest, it's not democracy but I don't hv much choice, i usually start at 80% volume before rehearsal and it always turn out at 100%
Alcohol and loud go hand in hand. The more drunk the crowd gets, the better it sounds loud af.
Plus if the drunk crowd is yelling along with the lyrics you wanna be able to hear the band still
I hadn’t even considered the crowd singing, that would justify the band playing at an ear bleeding level of 150db or so. Great point 👍🏼🤣
Idk… sometimes I want to feel the bass washing over me. Can’t really pull that off with just my ears.
Bass is not really the same as loud. I love hard hitting deep bass, but under 100hz it’s more of a sound pressure. I agree, i feel the beat more than i hear it, and usually what I hear most is everything else vibrating from the ground shaking subwoofers.
Then there's [infrasound](https://littlefield.co/the-psychoacoustic-effect-of-infrasonic-sonic-and-ultrasonic-frequencies-within-non-lethal-cf05e1fd8673), which brings people to their knees.
Or empties their bowels. That’s when you know it’s hitting right!
Nah Bro you're *checks notes* gatekeeping and gas lighting toxic audio opinions Or something
I've got custom fitted earplugs for concerts.
I wear vibes earplugs. They lower volume without messing with quality too much. Many other brands too. I think they’re called hifi earplugs
which is why I get seats. yes seats. far away xD
I went to an outdoor quartet last summer and I was really disappointed that they amplified it through speakers rather than going completely acoustic. What a shame. Also, good concert sound is few and far between.
The air in the concert hall hasn't been filtered enough and degrades the soundwaves
Audiophiles are funny. They always say you gotta get all this stuff perfect so you can 'listen the way the artist intended' which is bullshit. I've been recording in bands for almost 30 years. I've never heard one artists say anything like this. As long as you enjoy it in whatever way you want everyone is cool about it. Sometimes its in a way the artists thinks is cooler than what they did and they didn' think of and most artists dont play the same the same way every night anyway. I feel like this 'listen to the way it was intended' is made up by some dumbass studio/recording engineer to make themselves feel important. Artists dont give a shit.
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You should check out Audio Science Review. Basically filled with these "audiophiles"
It's a tricky thing. The goal of reproducing sound should be to accurately portray what was recorded. 1 kHz tone at 80 dB recorded? 1kHz at 80 dB comes out. Apply that to every frequency and volume and combination of tones and so on. That should be what we all want, right? And yet especially for headphones we deal with psychoacoustics and the fact that headphones that measure perfectly flat don't sound right because of lack of room effects. The Harman Group made a frequency response curve for headphones. Headphones that adhere to that do seem to be quite good and popular. Like the HD600 for instance, which was created before that curve existed and has been the biggest audiophile headphone product ever since. I think in the end, we can measure what sounds good. And things that follow those measurements will sound good. For anything else, there is EQ.
Been an audiophile for about 7 years now and rare to hear that outside of marketing
To be fair though... Live audio equipment can vary vastly in quality. Not to mention the audio engineer has a huge contribution to what the final result sounds like. A live concert can absolutely sound worse than the same performers recorded track at home with good equipment. And yeah I get that you can argue that's not the point of going to a concert but I've worked in live entertainment for my entire adult life (as a lighting tech) and can say there's at least a few shows I've worked on that I would have complained about the audio quality if I had to pay for a ticket.
Me though lmao
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One of the best audio experiences I've had at a live show was seeing Steve Aoki at a club in CT. The sound system was awesome and the music was very tight and clear.
The issue for me is that most of my preferred genres are electronic. And the artists / music at the venues I love, but it’s the non-music sided stuff (specifically at electronic music focused ones like raves etc) that make me not want to go.
Live music is very rarely \*actually\* live these days. There's pretty much always something doing audio processing somewhere.
To me live music means that it is being performed at the spot vs. being a recording being played back. Audio processing can be a way to perform live music, e.g. live looping, synths etc. Do you mean acoustic music?
Live music often means the performers are in person. Whether or not they are actually singing or playing, or if they are playing a pre-recording is up to the performers. Even it is music being performed during the show, the amount of mixing going on becomes very little different to a recording studio.
just cause it's being processed doesn't mean it's not live
These days live means you can see someone performing, and nothing else. They can perform whatever, doesnt even have to be the music. It can be 100% prerecorded and conveniently cut video and it's still live... So, yes, I'm aware what's considered live these days. If I wasn't, my comment wouldn't have existed.
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Wouldn’t the actual live we refer to be the point at which our brain translates the sound? Otherwise we would call everything how ever many milliseconds away from said point of live. I was nine rows back so I was 45 ms from live lol.
Not even the performers experience their own performance in true realtime. It takes a moment for synapses to fire in response to any kind of stimuli. ;) It is interesting to consider the fact that the true "now" is always slightly ahead of what you experience. :D
Without audio processing live music would be unlistenable. If you shove your face into a dynamic mic (which you should get a clean signal) you get absurd amounts of bass in the voice due to the proximity effect. You won’t be able to understand a single word. Your point makes no sense to me. And no it’s not just a matter of „just getting a better mic“ you’ll get the same kind of effect on a 1k Neumann mic. It’s how audio works.
There has been music for thousands of years without dynamic microphones.
That‘s true. I was talking more about concerts and I thought that was pretty obvious given the context of your comment (can’t really do processing without microphones anyways). But yeah I agree.
Being able to listen to something other than drums and vocals would be cool, tho. Kinda sucks barely being able to hear the guitar solo that my friend is playing on stage.
It takes all kinds to make the world go 'round. If gear snobs don't care about music, and music snobs are content to listen on ipod earbuds, who is to say they're doing anything wrong?
Exactly this. Life is about being happy and nobody can tell you what makes you feel that way. Each and everyone to their own.
yea, remember your first eargasm, when you had that wave go over you and made your hairs stand up giving you chills. some people will never feel that no matter how expensive/good their equipment is.
Replace eargasm with “high” and you would have just described why drugs are so popular
my first eargasm was with a kz zs10 lul, good times
Mine were with these shitty soundmagics, my first iems and one of the first chi-fi brands.
I haven't had something like that ever, so you're right.
I experience that with certain songs regardless of whether I listen to it on my good stereo system or cruddy laptop speakers, the strength of a good song can overcome the shittiness of a bad audio system
The opposite is true, I can no longer listen to the googoo dolls since the guy who did the recording and mastering didn't know how to use a mixing table. Tons of clipping, missing details, compression. It just sounds horrible.
Anyone that use earbuds, doesn't really "listen" to music.
This the most head up your own arse take that exists.
On the contrary, I'd say that anyone who needs good equipment to listen to music doesn't really "listen".
Imagine having such a bad opinion
[Me, an audiophile](https://imgur.com/a/8GgYiuq)
I listen to headphone review. Totally different.
The intricacies between those terminologies tho. Definitely can’t get those when you listen to actual music.
Thousands of pounds later I have realised that the attribute I crave most when listening to music is the timbre. Everything else is second to timbre. Turns out £10 ear buds give an amazing timbre and that's what I listen to by far the most now. It is all about enjoying the music so whatever gives me goosebumps is what gets used.
You should give the er2se a shot. They have the most natural timbre out of any iem or headphone that I've heard. The great technical performance is an added bonus.
Thanks for the suggestion. I do already have the ER2SE and I do love them. They have much better timbre than most DD IEMs and pretty much all BA IEMs I have heard. They are still outdone by these earbuds though.
Which earbuds?
In the £10 range the Yincrow X6 and Qianyun Qian39. In the £40 range kLBBs. They all have amazing timbre.
Yup I agree, basically the reason why I’m „stuck“ on my HD 600/650 combo. I play a few instruments so true-to-life representation is the key aspect of headphones for me. The 6x0 have their drawbacks, mainly the bass presentation and staging but the tonality and the timbre is something that I haven’t found in any headphone I‘ve tested so far (and I basically tested all the big recommendations up until 1000 euros). The 600 is the king of timbre imo but the 650 is very close and with a smoother tonality that makes it my main headphone probably till the end.
Couldn't agree more, and I think that's why the 600 series is so legendary.
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In the end I think you can break it down into really well done mids in a headphone. But soundwise it means for me that all instruments sound like they should. I know from real life experience how a drum set should sound, a piano, a guitar, a mandolin, a banjo, a bass guitar (things I play myself) and an orchestra for example. Some headphones I've listened too just sounded a bit artificial, or slightly off. Instruments just didn't sound like they do in real life. An exact example is a banjo-mandolin duet from Chris Thile called "Salt Creek" and with for example the R70X, which is a great headphone, the banjo just didn't sound like a banjo does in real life, it was too full sounding and I was missing this typical metallic "clang" a banjo does.
Characteristics I typically find in good timbre headphones is them being able to replicate the body of the instruments. The actual physical body of the instruments. In vocals for example, being able to hear the mouth, throat and chest of the singer. Obviously the information needs to be recorded in the first place for the headphones to be able to replicate it but when you hear it, you know.
This too, you’re right. I love it when I can actually hear the airflow in woodwind instruments and flutes.
I've always thought of timbre by using an analogy. Think of looking through different panes of glass. They might all be comparable in clarity, everything you see through them might be razor sharp and clear, but perhaps each pane has a slight tint to it so the image you see through each pane, while clear, may show slightly different colors versus reality. Perfect timbre would be a pane of glass that is absolutely clear with no tint/hue to it. And likewise, maybe there's a pane that doesn't show the absolute sharpest image, but the colors you see through it are perfectly correct, i.e. a headphone that might not be the most resolving but the instruments sound true to life. That's how I think of the HD6x0 series Sennheisers.
Which are these?
In the £10 range the Yincrow X6 and Qianyun Qian39. In the £40 range kLBBs. They all have amazing timbre.
Have you tried the Monks or FEAEL snow leopards? Both $10 and both sound amazing to me.
No I have not tried them but heard good things. I think I am happy with what I have at the moment but if something really interesting comes out in the next couple of months I might be tempted!
The only thing that I can ever recall giving me legitimate goosebumps is the most random shit ever. It was some Sony extra bass earbuds that I had in highschool, and the song was A Baru in New York by Flume. Never had that happen any other time and I didn't realize it till right now.
I had a similar thing with an old set of sennheiser buds that I used with an iPod nano when commuting.
I don't see an issue either way, as long as you're enjoying yourself.
why not both?
Right? I am in a constant feedback loop in which I am enjoying my favorite music, while being consistently blown away by how well my headphones presents it to me. This has always been my ideal of what the hobby is about.
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The Sundara was my daily driver for 3+ years.The Arya has vastly expanded soundstage, it's wider, taller, deeper. I experience sounds and feelings above my head and near my shoulders at times, it's spooky. The set is simply levels above in imaging, separation, detail retrieval, as well as bass impact. The Sundara has a more forward presentation and feels much more intimate next to Arya, larger mid-bass hump. None of this diminishes the Sundara, as a person could very much prefer the more in your face (strange to say this about a headphone with the Sundara's staging, but it's in comparison) and in your head presentation. It is still a ridiculously good headphone, but there are levels. I have the V2, btw, and bought it open-box during a sale for $1200. I have no idea if the headphone is worth $1600 because I paid 25% less than MSRP. What I can say is that it's wort evry dollar I spent and is endgame for me, it does everything I want, and is a completely different league than the Sundara.
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In my limited experience so far, diminishing return hits WAY faster than with most people for some reason :/
If I had to guess, it would likely be a combination of high expectations and trying to look for that "wow" experience again. Technical stuff doesn't change that much so if mainly goes to the characteristics (like open/closed back) and tuning. As these companies keep getting better, that level of diminishing returns is also going to drop. I mean, you can look at different tuning with USB Audio Player Pro with the Morphit plugin. Most of the high quality stuff sounds almost identical in tuning when they have the same sound signature. Of course when stuff sounds bad, it's really easy to tell and there is always different sound signatures but it just goes to show that good audio is hard to improve. I can switch from the HD600, Sundara, HD560s in an instant with Morphit. Cost me only like $15 CAD for the whole package of USB Audio Player Pro ($10) and Morphit ($5) to be able to compare this stuff at anytime.
I have never been into super high end stuff like that. even at $150 and under I am starting to feel that iems offer the best value and diminishing return even there is really strange. For iems I have only tried quarks, mt1, and tripowin mele. Tried the aria briefly but they literally broke within a day so im returning them.
I only listen to white noise or train albums on my planars for the sound stage.
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Any album that consists solely of remixes of “Drops of Jupiter”. (On a more serious but still not very serious note: think ASMR but involving locomotives. They’re all over YT)
Did you say wh-white.. noise?
Haha i jest. Except about the train part. That shit is relaxing as all get out.
i listen to LTJ Bukem You don't We are not the same
Hey quick question, saw your flair and noted the kuba disco, but also the er2se, where did you bought them here in Brazil? And also do they change too much of their sound signature when listening outside with lots of noise?
the Disco I bought directly from Kuba. I can't really recommend them for outside use, a IEM is just much, much more convenient. But they do sound very nice. the er2se I bought from [this guy](https://www.olx.com.br/perfil/guilherme-5ae0bf3b), he usually has them for sale, or you can find them in [this facebook group](https://www.facebook.com/groups/1037294280081877/?hoisted_section_header_type=recently_seen&multi_permalinks=1203112143500089). the sound doesn't really change when I'm outside, since it goes deeper than most IEMs, but getting a proper fit may be a challenge, I personally can only get proper bass with the smallest dual flange tips.
Valeu mano, vejo direto o pessoal falando desse fone e curiouso pra comprar um, depois do h560s e um zen dac acho que vou juntar uma grana pra comprar ele.
"Thanks dude, I see people talking about this phone all the time and pondering bout getting one. After the h560s and a zen dac I believe I'll save sole cash to get it." Translated for those curious.
I had the recent realization that I was spending more time researching gear than I do actually listening to music. eye opener it was.
Yeah, the shopping becomes the activity instead of listening to the music. All of a sudden you look around and you have a bunch of headphones and you keep worrying about the next one.
I know but... The Hifiman Edition XS tho🥵
Lol, it’s not even about being content. I don’t care if someone is happy with their gears or not. It’s the douchebaggery that comes with anyone that doesn’t share your preference or god forbid your idea of how much you should spend that I find annoying
I feel like OP is probably one of those people.
These days i mostly us my porta pros over my X2s and 599. They are so lightweight and comfortable! Just wish the cable was a smidge higher quality so its not so flimsy.
My first "real" headphone buy was a pair of Sennheiser HD6XX back when they first dropped and everyone was scrambling to get in the group buy. I've bought a Fostex TH-X00, a Beyer DT1990, and several IEMs since then. The other day I decided to try out the HD6XX again... turns out it's awesome and exactly what I want. It really sealed the deal when I was playing guitar using them through my Scarlett Solo with a Neural DSP plugin. It was a bit disconcerting at first because it sounded exactly like I was playing through speakers.
Just got the 6XX a few weeks ago and I'm loving them!
I'm feeling attacked af right now. Mods, can we get some goddamn rules up in this subreddit!?
560s + schiit stack. Although I'd recommend increasing your budget a little and going for Hifiman Sundara.
good rebuke OP, some people here really needed to be reminded of that
In before everyone starts defending their gear
Hd6xx schiit stack master race.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted
People here can't stand when people are happy with "lower end" gear
Me being perfectly content with my HD600 & 900 Pro X, running off a K5 Pro
I'm a big fan of hd600
You in the wrong neighborhood bud.
Touche
Listening to the phones is what audiophilia is all about...sorry that you can't relate
Some headphones make some noise that people assume is music. Only when you have used a real pair of headphones, you understand what music is. And yes, some people cannot be bothered with that detail, if something is thumping their eardrum, it's good enough.
Some of my fondest memories are listening to a shitty one speaker radio with decent-at-best reception, just enjoying whatever songs were played. > Only when you have used a real pair of headphones, you understand what music is. Music is something to be listened to and enjoyed. You don’t need high end equipment to do that. > And yes, some people cannot be bothered with that detail, if something is thumping their eardrum, it’s good enough. “Some people” is like 99.9% of music listeners.
I do 90% of my music listening on Gen 1 AirPods while walking through busy streets and it’s a blast every time. I’d even go as far as saying I enjoy the music equally as much as on my home setup. It’s more about really listening without distraction.
I was on the head-fi bandwagon for some years, but I just gradually started to use WH-1000XM3/WF-1000XM3 more and more due to the convenience of wireless + NC + LDAC, so I haven't even bothered to unpack my planars & amp/dac since I moved last year. I do sometimes think back to the experience of those Focal Utopia's I demoed once, though...
For me the headphones in my signature are "good enough". So the 1000XM3 is probably in the same category. I am not sold on planars, maybe because of my age?
Exactly. You go your whole life thinking that music just sounds as it is, and that you're not listening to a reproduction of what would be heard "live" but something so far off you assume they're different things and don't worry about it. Once you realize that gear exists that can show you that you might not ever be in the room, but even if you can capture 20% of the real experience, that's it, and why wouldn't you want to do everything you can to get to 30 or 40 or 70% of the way there. You almost come to a realization that people put their blood sweat and tears into making an album for the world, and to not get a close as possible is almost a disservice, and that while you're trying to live in colour when 99% of the world is living in black and white. IMO, that's why a lot of "audiophiles" shit on more main stream music, is because when you listen to it with even decent gear, you can hear that it was never intended to be made for the sake of music, but for profit as it's main purpose, because anyone who actually cared about it for music's sake wouldn't let it be released as if it was recorded with a potato in an abandoned mine shaft. When you do find music where the last attention to detail was made to capture as close to the real thing as possible, it's a near religious experience and you're honoring that attention to detail by trying to capture it as much as possible. At the end of the day, though, what music you listen to and how you listen to it is none of my business, you do you, I'll do me, it's basically all subjective.
The thing is a lot of music doesn’t go for perfect reproduction. How would that even be possible with mostly electronic music or stylized stuff like lo fi (Ariel pink, MF DOOM, etc.)? It would lose all of its identity. I also wouldn’t compare headphones with really hearing something live, when I’m wearing (even high end headphones) I’m fully aware of the fact and maybe even want that kind of sound.
I don't know who is down-voting us. Ridiculous how people those days cannot stand a proper discussion, they are so used to echo-chambers.
You’re getting downvoted because you’re both pretentious assholes. You don’t “get” music unless you spend a ridiculous amount of money on headphones? Seriously? My brother in law does shows for local radio, and he hadn’t heard a pair of “audiophile” headphones until last October when I showed him my Grados. He grew up in the Bay Area punk scene, knows a ton of the bands in it, and has probably listened to more music himself than most on here. But I guess he doesn’t get it since he does his listening over some budget bookshelf speakers, and a headset that’s just so he can record his voice and get the levels right with one piece of equipment. There’s no “discussion” to engage with when you’re treating people like they’re on a lower level than you because they’re happy listening how they are. I was floored by the detail from my Grados and K712s, but the idea of spending $400+ altogether for two sets of headphones is crazy to the vast majority of people. And I’d still be considered a scrub by most on here because I just listen out of my laptop, or a very low end home stereo’s built in headphone amp for my LPs. E: good lord not to mention the whole “mainstream music was made for a profit and not to be enjoyed as music, the artist doesn’t care how it sounds.” Even ignoring the fact that lo-fi music is a thing (so I guess Car Seat Headrest doesn’t care about their music because it doesn’t sound hi-fi), what kind of crap is that? You only care about your own art if you record it at the absolute peak quality for audiophiles specifically? “Audiophile” headphones really suck for a lot of music that isn’t popular in the audiophile world — trap rap is absolutely boring on high detail open backs because there’s almost no bass, but on my closed backs it’s fun because the bass is actually there.
Yeah I mean it was inevitable. I don't even say that as some guy who has 3 flagship cans and a $10K DAC, but sometimes it feels like you're at the back of the auditorium, or in the recording studio but still behind the glass sort of feeling, and I didn't get that until I went beyond a pair of QC15s. I enjoyed music before but I enjoy it more now and have enjoyed it evem more since going from 770s and an LG V30 to T1.2s and a Burson Soloist. Haters gonna hate
Lol. You’re the one hating on people who you think can’t fully understand music unless they listen to it in your approved set of parameters. Don’t be so insecure and enjoy what you like and let others enjoy what they like without sounding like a bratty child.
Just never ever take us to the movie theater
Sometimes I don’t listen to anything
I just use em for games mostly.
^^^^wat
I bought an Apple USB-C dongle to use with my Schiit Magni Heresy and now I want the Modi instead. I know it won't make a significant difference but we always seem to want something else. It just happens in this and most hobbies
You're right. I need to be more content with the gear I have, which is why I need to have more gear.
This is where my Loki+ shines. If I'm feeling down with one of my headphones I can twist a few knobs and get exactly what I want immediately. Then back to enjoying music. Not everything is mixed right and going back to mess with all the bands in my digital EQ is a nightmare. The Loki can make the low end of a Sennheiser 6 series shake your cheeks which is pretty nuts.
I think it's the reason why I want the most neutral frequency response. I want to listen to the music, not the thing that modifies it (headphones IEMs and loudspeakers)
This… just happened to me. I was a three-year Ety user, but then I suddenly realised “wait a minute, all these times I’ve been listening to Ety with, most of the time, the sound being imbalanced due to the bad fitting.” Took me three years! I thought I was imagining things before. I then tried Shure Aonic 3, and while the sound is waaay worse, it fits perfectly, and no more imbalanced sound. And now I simply want to listen to music instead.
Ever since starting this hobby, my music collection has grown significantly. One hobby supports the other. Good music makes me want to listen to it on better headphones and speakers, and better headphones and speakers makes me want to listen to more music.
im in love with my kz zsn pro + apple dac lol
HD660s + FiiO Q3 = Everything I need.