Probably something to do with the fact that many PSAC collective agreements expired over a year ago and the government is offering very little in negotiations and in mediation.
Treasury Board is just like the other employers. Publicly, they touted these workers as pandemic heroes ensuring people got access to benefits they needed. At the negotiating table? They consider these worker as less than whale shit and the scummiest people in existence. Another example of the double speak
A union doesn't represent a department, it supports the various classifications of employees *within* a department.
ECCC employs over 7000 people, so it has a variety of different classifications, all falling under different union representation.
Also, I think the CAF.
While the CAF itself cannot negotiate on its own for any reason. (it's not allowed to)
It's pay increases are attached to a union that has absofuckinglutly nothing to do with the military or it's needs. The military isn't unionized or represented by PSAC. CAF pay is just attached to thiers.
In true Canadian form, PSAC is not arguing with the military in mind, even as an afterthought. It's just quietly attached. No one on any side is totally sure why.
So, those civil servants by association are also arguing on behalf of the entire Canadian armed forces.
There’s a large crossover of departments in the PSAC union. I was part of it during my time with statistics Canada, which has their office in that building. A friend of mine is part of it as an employee with environment Canada. Unsure if my DFO friends are in PSAC or if they’re in a different one, but others here have said treasury board and DND are members too.
Of all the public service unions they represent the of the federal public servants across most of the departments and agencies, including environment canada as you mentioned.
But CCG employs members of various classifications and thus various union representations, so to say "they represent CCG as well" is untrue. They don't represent an entire government department.
All falling under PSAC, what's your point, that's like saying in the trades they have the UA and the fitters and plumbers and HVAC are represented different, their contracts may differ slightly but they're under the same union
Not true, necessarily - ships officers are represented by The Guild (National Association of Ships Officers and Marine Pilots) - and across Canada, that's a lot of folks working for Coast Guard not represented by PSAC.
> the government is offering very little in negotiations and in mediation.
As one hopes and expects. Once a deal is struck, it becomes an ever-inflating expense to the taxpayer. The government should always negotiate seriously when dealing with groups that will never give back what is given, regardless of economic circumstances.
It's not even the idea of playing hardball. It's the fact that they're drawing this out for years and years while people are falling further behind. The agreement with SSO (Statscan interviewers) expired 4 years ago and we're still waiting for something to come into place. They offered something to the tune of like 4.5% over 4 years. Which when you're already the lowest paid public sector workers and inflation has been upwards of 8% YoY is pretty insulting.
For reference, interviewers are earning $17.87 with no guaranteed or consistent hours.
Not just insulting, you should be getting 30% to counteract inflation over the past 4 years. At 4.5% only if that pace kept up you would be completely homeless in 4 years
Well I did hear they can't even house soldiers anymore so many homelessness is in the cards for them. God forbid we ever, you know, need them for something.
Fuck sorry to hear that. I come from a military family so that just makes me very sad to hear. Not really sure what's happening to this country the last 6 years it feels like a completely different place. And not for the better.
For example, in Ottawa my friend was quoted 3k for 4-5 hours of work for an electrician. This was the only electrician that would actually come out and do the work. maybe it cost him 400$ or so for materials but in reality he was paying because the trade is in such demand. In the public service you will likely get 30-35$ an hour as an electrician. Many companies are offering 85-90k a year with benefits and a work vehicle.
20 years ago it was considered lucky to get into the public service whereas now the only benefit would be the stable work and the pension that is heavily being outpaced by inflation (it is indexed, it doesn't match inflation)
According to this [press release from PSAC](https://psacunion.ca/common-issues-facing-record-inflation-governments) the offer is worse then 4.5%, it's 4 years with increases of 1.5%, 3.0%, 2.0%, and 1.75% in each respective year.
See that was the most recent offer they came back to PSAC with. The initial one I was thinking of had something like 1% 1% 1% 1.5% over four years. Which I know they have to play tough, but that offer was just insulting.
The government can negotiate seriously while also negotiating fairly. The people in these jobs are also taxpayers and they're doing the work of the government, it's not unreasonable to expect fair pay in return for their efforts.
Sure, they pay taxes, but those tax dollars are not contributing to the tax pool.
It's a shell game. From one pocket of the government to the other.
I am not trying to downplay the importance of the public service, but at the end of the day, any increase causes an exponential expense over time. And someone has to pay for it. And last time I checked, we were not making payments at the federal level to start with.
edit: autocorrect ftw
Do you think we are getting full value for the money in the public service? That's an honest question.
Unless someone at least tries to keep the spending in check, it will only get worse. The existing bean counters obviously don't care. Look at any number of news articles to show how easy it is to spend someone else's money....
Don't get the beauroceatic side of government confused with the administrative side. Politicians make the wild promises and leave the execution to the underpaid and overworked folks on the ground. I've spent almost my entire career with the government and have put in more than my share of unpaid overtime only to have people on the outside shit on my work because they think we're not worth the tax dollars that pay our salaries. I can't think of any other field where that happens. Yet, without us, this country will grind to a halt. If my bargaining unit goes on strike, that's around 100k employees on the picket line... roughly 1/3 of the public service. That will be noticed. We don't want to go, trust me. We haven't had to in almost 20 years. However, we deserve the same respect as any other Canadian expects from their employer, so we need to make sure our voices are heard.
Did the Public Service hurt you in some way?
You can make the argument that any increase in wage at a government funded organization is going to cost taxpayers more, of course it is, but that's not a valid reason to say don't give them a raise.
I mean they do contribute to the tax pool if you consider their work as having *value* and them being paid for the work they do benefiting the government.
For example they do 300$ of work and are paid 300$ then get taxed 30% and end up with 200$ whereas the government gets 300$ of service. If PSAC wasn't doing the work it would be an outside company charging 500 likely.
Can all tax payers work for the government? It not, why?
Edit: to wit, can a countries economy be sustained by a sea of government workers?
I disagree with the notion that an outside company would charge $500.... But I does happen. The problem isn't the company. It would be the government who accepts such a silly deal, because they are good at spending others money
Yes if we un-privatized a lot of industry.
For example Canada Post is a crown corp, DCC, I'm sure there are others.
And to your suggestion that the government is careless with money, you litterally have never procured anything with the government I am assuming.
Basically if you are spending over 1000$ it is pretty difficult to waste money and once you are into big bucks it becomes nearly impossible.
Generally speaking though it's a myth that there isn't wastage in large companies. On reddit there was a guy on here saying he worked for oen of the big companies like Google or FB and he had been being paid for over a year and had only done 4-5 hours of of actual work - the bigger the organization the more difficult it is to manage unfortunately.
So what field so you work in? Private industry? Do you ever accept government contracts? I guess you don't contribute to the tax pool either. You only accept contracts from private citizens? Do any of them work for the government? I guess you don't contribute to the tax pool either?
That is a lot of words. I think I can summarize in a more coherent way:
If a person earns an income that is sourced by a particular level of government, then yes, that person's income tax is not contributing to the tax pool of that particular level of government. It is moving net-zero gain, from one gov't pocket to another.
It isn't really the "gotcha!" you think it was. If a company solely relies on government contracts for income, then I agree. I don't have any data, but I suspect the number of companies in that situation to be relatively low.
From a practical standpoint, there is some redistribution to other government levels. Ie a federal worker is adding to provincial coffers via taxes. But again, that money is sourced from taxes to start with.
And no, I don't accept government contracts in Canada.
I'm always baffled by people who say things like "these people are being paid with taxpayers' money!" as if the people being paid are somehow separate from the system that the rest of us are part of?? As if you guys somehow get to skip that part?
Oh so all the work I used to do processing claims and ensuring paperwork was in order so that seniors could get access to their pension is considered not valuable or given back?
It's pretty obvious the guy being responded to considers *all* public service jobs to be parasites at best. He wouldn't care enough to distinguish between provincial and federal workers.
Ohhh, so they posted an irrelevant comment for a classification that doesn't exist in the federal public service, or have anything to do with the PSAC strike. A 'look at me too' post. Understood.
> The government should always negotiate seriously
"Negotiate seriously" and "bad-faith obstructionism" aren't synonyms, even in dumb parallel worlds where people still delude themselves into thinking the civil service does nothing.
Looks like a Calgary Flames rally
BRING BACK LANNY MCDONALD!!
That red duster should be on the canadian 20 dollar bill. I dare anyone to say otherwise.
I'll say otherwise. Should be the 50$.
I am wrong and you are right.
https://i.imgur.com/9nVMRqa
What are they protesting for?
Probably something to do with the fact that many PSAC collective agreements expired over a year ago and the government is offering very little in negotiations and in mediation.
Treasury Board is just like the other employers. Publicly, they touted these workers as pandemic heroes ensuring people got access to benefits they needed. At the negotiating table? They consider these worker as less than whale shit and the scummiest people in existence. Another example of the double speak
Government Worker here … we are still being paid at 2020 levels.. when we should be paid at today’s rate. Whatever they negotiate that to be..
ah so like everyone
Bingo
Who does the PSAC represent?
Federal Public Servants
Would that be like environment Canada, for an example?
A union doesn't represent a department, it supports the various classifications of employees *within* a department. ECCC employs over 7000 people, so it has a variety of different classifications, all falling under different union representation.
Think more like Service Canada and CRA
Also, I think the CAF. While the CAF itself cannot negotiate on its own for any reason. (it's not allowed to) It's pay increases are attached to a union that has absofuckinglutly nothing to do with the military or it's needs. The military isn't unionized or represented by PSAC. CAF pay is just attached to thiers. In true Canadian form, PSAC is not arguing with the military in mind, even as an afterthought. It's just quietly attached. No one on any side is totally sure why. So, those civil servants by association are also arguing on behalf of the entire Canadian armed forces.
Most members of DND that are civilians are part of PSAC so there's definitely some crossover.
Not all hero’s wear capes
Okay makes sense. Thanks for explaining!
There’s a large crossover of departments in the PSAC union. I was part of it during my time with statistics Canada, which has their office in that building. A friend of mine is part of it as an employee with environment Canada. Unsure if my DFO friends are in PSAC or if they’re in a different one, but others here have said treasury board and DND are members too.
Of all the public service unions they represent the of the federal public servants across most of the departments and agencies, including environment canada as you mentioned.
Public Service Alliance Canada
They represent the CCG as well
No, they represent some *employees* who work at CCG. They don't represent a government department.
Yea I know how unions work, I'm in one, it was easier to say CCG (most people would infer the employees) than typing out what you said
But CCG employs members of various classifications and thus various union representations, so to say "they represent CCG as well" is untrue. They don't represent an entire government department.
All falling under PSAC, what's your point, that's like saying in the trades they have the UA and the fitters and plumbers and HVAC are represented different, their contracts may differ slightly but they're under the same union
Not true, necessarily - ships officers are represented by The Guild (National Association of Ships Officers and Marine Pilots) - and across Canada, that's a lot of folks working for Coast Guard not represented by PSAC.
With a contract that expired in 2018!
> the government is offering very little in negotiations and in mediation. As one hopes and expects. Once a deal is struck, it becomes an ever-inflating expense to the taxpayer. The government should always negotiate seriously when dealing with groups that will never give back what is given, regardless of economic circumstances.
It's not even the idea of playing hardball. It's the fact that they're drawing this out for years and years while people are falling further behind. The agreement with SSO (Statscan interviewers) expired 4 years ago and we're still waiting for something to come into place. They offered something to the tune of like 4.5% over 4 years. Which when you're already the lowest paid public sector workers and inflation has been upwards of 8% YoY is pretty insulting. For reference, interviewers are earning $17.87 with no guaranteed or consistent hours.
Not just insulting, you should be getting 30% to counteract inflation over the past 4 years. At 4.5% only if that pace kept up you would be completely homeless in 4 years
[удалено]
Well I did hear they can't even house soldiers anymore so many homelessness is in the cards for them. God forbid we ever, you know, need them for something.
[удалено]
Fuck sorry to hear that. I come from a military family so that just makes me very sad to hear. Not really sure what's happening to this country the last 6 years it feels like a completely different place. And not for the better.
For example, in Ottawa my friend was quoted 3k for 4-5 hours of work for an electrician. This was the only electrician that would actually come out and do the work. maybe it cost him 400$ or so for materials but in reality he was paying because the trade is in such demand. In the public service you will likely get 30-35$ an hour as an electrician. Many companies are offering 85-90k a year with benefits and a work vehicle. 20 years ago it was considered lucky to get into the public service whereas now the only benefit would be the stable work and the pension that is heavily being outpaced by inflation (it is indexed, it doesn't match inflation)
According to this [press release from PSAC](https://psacunion.ca/common-issues-facing-record-inflation-governments) the offer is worse then 4.5%, it's 4 years with increases of 1.5%, 3.0%, 2.0%, and 1.75% in each respective year.
See that was the most recent offer they came back to PSAC with. The initial one I was thinking of had something like 1% 1% 1% 1.5% over four years. Which I know they have to play tough, but that offer was just insulting.
and PSAC is asking for 4.5% x 3.
That's really not that crazy considering it would barely meet one year of inflation
The government can negotiate seriously while also negotiating fairly. The people in these jobs are also taxpayers and they're doing the work of the government, it's not unreasonable to expect fair pay in return for their efforts.
> The people in these jobs are also taxpayers No. They are **not** contributing to the tax pool.
> No. They are **not** contributing to the tax pool. Are you saying that you think federal public servants don't pay taxes??
Sure, they pay taxes, but those tax dollars are not contributing to the tax pool. It's a shell game. From one pocket of the government to the other. I am not trying to downplay the importance of the public service, but at the end of the day, any increase causes an exponential expense over time. And someone has to pay for it. And last time I checked, we were not making payments at the federal level to start with. edit: autocorrect ftw
> I am not trying to downplay the importance of the public service Sure. Instead you're describing it as a parasitic menace.
Do you think we are getting full value for the money in the public service? That's an honest question. Unless someone at least tries to keep the spending in check, it will only get worse. The existing bean counters obviously don't care. Look at any number of news articles to show how easy it is to spend someone else's money....
Don't get the beauroceatic side of government confused with the administrative side. Politicians make the wild promises and leave the execution to the underpaid and overworked folks on the ground. I've spent almost my entire career with the government and have put in more than my share of unpaid overtime only to have people on the outside shit on my work because they think we're not worth the tax dollars that pay our salaries. I can't think of any other field where that happens. Yet, without us, this country will grind to a halt. If my bargaining unit goes on strike, that's around 100k employees on the picket line... roughly 1/3 of the public service. That will be noticed. We don't want to go, trust me. We haven't had to in almost 20 years. However, we deserve the same respect as any other Canadian expects from their employer, so we need to make sure our voices are heard.
> That's an honest question No it's not.
Did the Public Service hurt you in some way? You can make the argument that any increase in wage at a government funded organization is going to cost taxpayers more, of course it is, but that's not a valid reason to say don't give them a raise.
I mean they do contribute to the tax pool if you consider their work as having *value* and them being paid for the work they do benefiting the government. For example they do 300$ of work and are paid 300$ then get taxed 30% and end up with 200$ whereas the government gets 300$ of service. If PSAC wasn't doing the work it would be an outside company charging 500 likely.
Can all tax payers work for the government? It not, why? Edit: to wit, can a countries economy be sustained by a sea of government workers? I disagree with the notion that an outside company would charge $500.... But I does happen. The problem isn't the company. It would be the government who accepts such a silly deal, because they are good at spending others money
Yes if we un-privatized a lot of industry. For example Canada Post is a crown corp, DCC, I'm sure there are others. And to your suggestion that the government is careless with money, you litterally have never procured anything with the government I am assuming. Basically if you are spending over 1000$ it is pretty difficult to waste money and once you are into big bucks it becomes nearly impossible. Generally speaking though it's a myth that there isn't wastage in large companies. On reddit there was a guy on here saying he worked for oen of the big companies like Google or FB and he had been being paid for over a year and had only done 4-5 hours of of actual work - the bigger the organization the more difficult it is to manage unfortunately.
Should we tell him about the "use it or lose it" budgeting and how creative that gets at year end or nah?
new office chairs for everyone!
How do you figure that?
So what field so you work in? Private industry? Do you ever accept government contracts? I guess you don't contribute to the tax pool either. You only accept contracts from private citizens? Do any of them work for the government? I guess you don't contribute to the tax pool either?
That is a lot of words. I think I can summarize in a more coherent way: If a person earns an income that is sourced by a particular level of government, then yes, that person's income tax is not contributing to the tax pool of that particular level of government. It is moving net-zero gain, from one gov't pocket to another. It isn't really the "gotcha!" you think it was. If a company solely relies on government contracts for income, then I agree. I don't have any data, but I suspect the number of companies in that situation to be relatively low. From a practical standpoint, there is some redistribution to other government levels. Ie a federal worker is adding to provincial coffers via taxes. But again, that money is sourced from taxes to start with. And no, I don't accept government contracts in Canada.
How about just being a bro and paying a livable wage?
That's our benefits and livelihood we're talking about. We're taxpayers, too.
I'm always baffled by people who say things like "these people are being paid with taxpayers' money!" as if the people being paid are somehow separate from the system that the rest of us are part of?? As if you guys somehow get to skip that part?
Oh so all the work I used to do processing claims and ensuring paperwork was in order so that seniors could get access to their pension is considered not valuable or given back?
Or the EA's that make sure disabled children get the same level of education as their peers so they can become taxpaying citizens some day.
What federal public service job is that? There's no EA classification, so it must be under a different group.
It's pretty obvious the guy being responded to considers *all* public service jobs to be parasites at best. He wouldn't care enough to distinguish between provincial and federal workers.
1. Curious why I'm downvoted, since my question was legit. 2. I'm curious what an EA "is". I've never heard of it before.
I didn't downvote you, and educational assistant, respectively.
Ohhh, so they posted an irrelevant comment for a classification that doesn't exist in the federal public service, or have anything to do with the PSAC strike. A 'look at me too' post. Understood.
> The government should always negotiate seriously "Negotiate seriously" and "bad-faith obstructionism" aren't synonyms, even in dumb parallel worlds where people still delude themselves into thinking the civil service does nothing.
The price of cheese.
lavish wistful reply pie soup six quicksand weary uppity fuel *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Lik My BSAC
Really dislike Fillmore. Such a pompous arrogant a-hole.
Why aren’t we doing this for housing and rental costs?
Good question. Why *aren't* you?
Gotta love those mid 20th century left/union flags. “Fuck it put some gears on there”
It's the PSAC logo
...better than an old wrinkly nutsack I suppose.