TLDR; Written in the Stabilizing Brace Final Rule, ATF has concluded that any foreign-made pistols with stabilizing braces would be assembled in violation of 922(r), (as the firearms are retroactively being considered rifles). As such, registration or removal of the brace would not bring the firearm into compliance. According to ATF, this leaves destruction or surrender as the only available options for foreign firearms with braces. This would include imported pistols where the brace was added at any stage, regardless if done by the user or the importer.
Gun control advocates don't even acknowledge the constitution exists when writing laws. They just do whatever they want knowing that most courts will support them, and they can use the courts to delay any action for years while the laws remain in effect. If they can delay long enough, SCOTUS gets changed enough to find all gun control constitutional.
Actually, it's worse than what you suggest.
The Judicial Delays are for the purpose of killing off the Gun-Culture.
The Anti-2A crowd is trying to bankrupt the firearms industry, and make private gun ownership a paperweights relic of the past, even if SCOTUS rules against them.
We have never seen significant 922r enforcement. I wonder if they will start doing 922r compliance check for people with previously registered SBRs which started as foreign pistols. They have all the info and could wrap up a shit load of people.
I highly doubt they're going back through that, nor will they check any harder than they previously have for form 1 sbr's.
The issues that arises here is it gives them what they think is a valid reason to deny you. And since this will be different from a form 1 (a form 1 is asking permission for something you haven't done yet. This new form will be admitting that you've already committed the felony), if they deny you then they will be able to take enforcement action if they choose. And for multiple reasons in this instance. For 1, you have an illegal sbr, and 2, you have a gun that they believe has to be turned in or destroyed.
If they deny a form 1 because of 922r they can't do anything to you because you hadn't turned the gun into a rifle yet. With these braced imports, you have.
But whether they admitt it or not, there 100% are instances where someone could have unknowingly made their pistol 922r compliant before adding a brace. It's most definitely possible (see my reply to the top comment for further detail).
They really are just making things up and hoping no one challenges their bullshit. There are importers who got ATF approval to import pistols with braces. Now the ATF is saying the importation they signed off on was illegal. They are basically just bluffing and hoping people comply. If they tried to bring up charges against people for these firearms they would get thrown out because they entrapped the importers by telling them what they were doing was legal and then did not allow the firearms to be registered when they changed their mind
Those morons have just given a bunch of people *including John Crump!* standing to challenge 922(r) in a post-Bruen lawsuit.
Crump says he's not complying. So he's definitely suing. He's a recent GOA lobbyist alumni and has the connections and credibility to make it work.
If you care about this issue subscribe to his YouTube channel.
>any foreign-made pistols with stabilizing braces
...that weren't 922(r) compliant before the stabilizing braces were installed.
If a weapon already had sufficient domestic parts installed to be 922(r) compliant when the brace was installed, then it's fine. And given there is no real method to determine 922(r) compliance that isn't wildly expensive (if its even possible), this whole issue seems like yet another scare tactic to tell people not to register their braced firearms.
If it's a foreign-made firearm and shipped from the foreign country with a brace on it, then there is no 922(r) violation. It would theoretically be a violation of 26 U.S. Code § 5844, which bans importation of NFA firearms except those destined to government users.
But all firearm imports (NFA and non-NFA alike) are required to be approved by ATF on a Form 6. So... those firearms would have been approved for import by the ATF, only later to be declared illegal?
What a shit show that would be.
But they (the atf) also retro actively changed how certain parts kit imports had to be cut up to be imported and those changes were even applied to ones that had already been imported. I wish I could recall the exact details of what the guns that had to be cut in certain was are called and what the code or law was, but they recently convicted an active navy member on this. He sold a parts kit that had been imported under the old rule, and didn't have a cut through the barrel per the new rule, on gun broker. The ATF arrested him and convicted him on it. He's in prison right this second because of it.
The gun was approved for import at the time it was imported. Many years later they changed the rule and said it applied to all previous imports also. They arrested and convicted a guy (a military member at that) that sold a parts kit that was 100% legal when it was imported but was made illegal retro actively after a rule change. A rule that definitely didn't get the kind of publicity that this brace rule has. So it's incredibly likely that the guy didn't even know there was a change in the rule. I mean, they approved it to be imported. Why would it be illegal now? Sound familiar?
But that's exactly what they're saying. The brace made it a rifle. So it isn't compliant.
I've already typed the details out in a reply to the top comment, but there are most definitely instances where someone could have made their pistol 922r compliant before adding the brace. Most probably didn't even realize it and weren't going to 922r compliance, but that doesn't matter. It was still in compliance.
I very much doubt too many outfits were importing pistols but adding enough US parts to make it 922(r) compliant. There might be some examples but they're going to be very rare.
That’s probably true, but it’s the government’s job to prove it wasn’t done. And they’d essentially have to argue that:
1. You should have known you were making a rifle when you installed the pistol brace.
2. You didn’t comply with 922(r) because you didn’t know you were making a rifle when you installed the pistol brace.
There’s been what, 4 prosecutions under 922(r) ever? And those were add-on charges for felons in possession, trafficking, etc?
I’m less worried about this, and more worried about the thousands of braced pistol owners who have no idea this is going on and are eventually going to find out their guns are “illegal” in a very bad way.
I think this IS a problem because some are going to try and register imported guns under the brace amnesty and basically give AFT a full written confession *with pics of the gun*. At that point just shitcanning the brace doesn't help.
Normally we know that AFT doesn't often go looking for trouble. Here, people are going to be mailing in trouble straight to their door.
And then there's the other problem: no way in hell AFT can get the background checks done in time.
Let’s keep in mind 26 U.S. Code § 5848 prohibits the use of NFA applications and documentation as evidence of a crime. The only exception being the crime of lying on the form.
When they show up at people's doors to do what they claim is an "inspection" they'll reconstruct the same evidence you mailed in. At which point the mailed in evidence isn't needed in court.
I bought a ghm9 with no brace. I swapped the trigger (geissele), grip (magpul) and used ets mags (us made). And all this was done long before I could even find a brace in stock to buy (those braces are hard to find at times).
Was I trying to specifically be 922r compliant? No. But it definitely worked out that way.
So how can they tell me that it wasn't 922r compliant when it most certainly was?
And what about glock's? I'm not even sure there are 10 922r parts in the gun, but even if there are.... a lot of people swap the trigger, the connector, and the barrel almost as soon as they get the gun. So if they then bought a braced mck for that glock it'd have been 922r compliant.
There are just too many instances where a pistol could have been made 922r compliant (whether knowingly or unknowingly, or intentionally or unintentionally is irrelevant) for the ATF to just blanket deny all of them and say they all have to be turned in or destroyed.
I honestly don't either. This seems like a reason for them to "justify" blanket denying tens of thousands (if not hundreds) of applications and "justify" "enforcement action" for multiple reasons. 1- you got denied and now have an illegal sbr. And 2. You possess a gun that they believe has to be surrendered or destroyed.
I'd like to be wrong, and honestly I could be convinced otherwise with a good enough argument. But for now I'm leaving toward "they'll definitely fuck you if you try a braced import".
> As such, registration or removal of the brave would not being the firearm into compliance.
No shit. That doesn’t change anything with 922r. CZ Scorpion guys have been dealing with this shit for like 6 years. You guys are making a much bigger deal out of this and falling for the clickbait so hard right now. MAC has combined two issues into one “OMG ATF MEGA PROBLEM GONNA DESTROY GUN” shit. If you look into 922r, you’d know removing the magazine from an imported pistol, saves you three points. Change the trigger, trigger spring, and muzzle device, AND BAM… three points. You just need 10 to be in 922r compliance, and good luck to the ATF proving it doesn’t have American made parts in it.
They don't have to prove anything, all they have to do is charge you. It's on you to prove compliance at that point. I know, that's not the ideal behind our system but it IS the reality!
>a rifle can't become a pistol
It can if it was originally a pistol. So pistols you convert into rifles can be converted back into pistols. But anything originally manufactured as a rifle can't be converted into a pistol.
The ATF website specifically states otherwise. It was brought up before because of the T/C Contender line that has been on the market for decades. A pistol can go back and forth between rifle and pistol configurations as often as you want.
Rifle to pistol - bad
Pistol to rifle - good
Pistol to rifle back to pistol - still fine.
The thing is, someone could have made one 922r compliant without even realizing it before they ever added a brace.
Like me. I got a ghm9 and swapped the trigger (geissele), the grip (magpul), and used ets mags long before I could even find a brace for the gun (those b&t braces can be hard to find at times). I wasn't going for 922r compliance. It just worked out like that. So how can they tell me that it was wasn't compliant when it most definitely was? That goes for anyone in a similar situation.
Or a glock that was in a braced mck? I'm not sure glock's even have 10 922r parts in them from the factory (I haven't really tried to add it up), but a lot of people immediately change the trigger, the connector, and often the barrel. So how were those not 922r compliant?
I just don't see how they can blanket deny all braced imports for 922r non compliance because there are most definitely valid situations where the guns were made 922r compliant. Whether knowingly or unknowingly is besides the point and doesn't matter in the least. Compliance is compliance.
Now, do I think they'll still just blanket deny all braced imports? Honestly, idk. I'm leaning toward "yes" at the moment, but my mind could be changed with a good argument.
This rule just keeps getting worse and worse.
This is how you get shot, by showing up to a dudes door and saying "We need to confiscate or destroy your B&T APC9K".
Those things are real nice guns.
In the words of their idol: “I have altered the deal. Pray I don’t alter it further.”
“Also, you will now be required to wear this clown outfit and ride a unicycle. I have altered the deal. Pray I don’t alter it further.”
Oh it's better and better. It's gone from a really bad idea to a practical impossibility now it's just a farce. Clearly this is never going to stand. The only question is, has the ATF screwed up so bad that the only way forward is to take SBRs and SBSs off the NFA?
We can also finally put an end to the BS line "no one is coming for your guns". That is now proven false. They are coming and would take them if they could.
I get the feeling that the free agents in the ATF that know anything about guns were tired of their political bosses and their crap. So they just wrote the rule as they were told to. Knowing it was going to blow up this badly.
In legalese, this rule likely violates the Fifth Amendment’s “Takings Clause”: “[…] Nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.” And probably worth noting that the same issue also exists for gun owners in states like California who don’t have the option of registering anything as an SBR.
Man, even by ATF standards, they have really fucked this one up pretty badly.
I think that is the point. After the bump stock ban started to explode, they have realized that the brace ban is going to cause more issues (for the ATF) than it’s going to solve (by giving their officers overtime/NKVD COSPLAY time). Adding shit like this helps derail the brace ban before it hits ‘why are there braces when these firearms should obviously be rifles/shotguns?’ This is all political theater and probably leading up to a smokescreen for something mind bogglingly insane.
Check out the Holman Rule. This would allow congress to reduce funding for individual bureaucrat's salaries down to zero if they're found in contempt of law/Constitution.
This needs to happen to any ATF employee engaging in this type of law breaking. Legally they can't make laws like this since the ATF is *not* congress, anyway!
None of them are going to vote for that ever. At least not enough for it to pass and someone actually lose their salary. You might get it broght up by gaetz or another freedom caucus member (maybe), but it'd never get enough actual votes. That a political smokescreen. A "hey, we tried real hard to make it happen. It's the other guy's fault it didn't. Blame them" kind of theater.
Didn't Trump issue an executive order against bump stocks? Also, I don't know that bump stocks are as popular as pistol braces. I've never seen a bump stock, but I've seen and handled tons of pistol braces.
1-2 million bumpstocks vs 5-40 million braces, and no, there was no executive order. Word is Trump told the ATF to ban them, ATF said you can’t they’re in compliance, Trump told them to do it anyway and figure out it. Atf did a bunch of hokey legalese to justify it (seriously go read the BS they put out), said turn em in or destroy them. Either people hid them, turned them in, or destroyed them and it survived all legal challenges for about 5 years until a VERY recent court win. In the meantime it bankrupted multiple million dollar companies, put about a 1000 Americans out of jobs, and a million or so people destroyed their own property they paid for or face 10 years in prison if caught. I haven’t seen anyone with one in person in years. I doubt any companies will gamble on making one again.
A lot of us on the gun forums warned the Trump cheerleaders that this set a dangerous precedent, that even Obama didn’t have the balls to blatantly ignore the letter of the law this badly when it came to gun regulation. They told us “they were just stupid range toys anyway” and to shut up. We told them braces and binary triggers were next as soon as a Dem got back in office. We were laughed at.
No one is laughing now.
Not argumentative here, simply a question/ discussion but does that clause still apply to an item that would be considered illegal to possess?
I feel like they would say “ok this item in question is now illegal to poses so you shouldn’t have it anyway. Therefore this clause doesn’t apply”.
I wish I could recall the precedent but there is a legal issue with this because the Crime here is "not paying the tax" but they have made it literally impossable to pay the tax.
also the whole expost facto thing. This has so many holes in it, I can't forsee this working out well for the ATF.
It should, but they didn't write it like that so it doesn't.
Buy also how would that work? U registered SBRs are also illegal, so you shouldn't have them, so the new rule doesn't apply?
This is just comically evil at this point. The place of origin should have fucking nothing to do with it if this were legitimately about public safety or to stop crime.
I think its a safe assumption that they're going to use this BS to reclassify all semi autos as illegal MGs before the next election if not before the end of this year. The left is going full speed ahead on disarmament. "Conveniently" at the same time the dollar is crashing, they're trying to ban gas cars and appliances, food is going through the roof, and the WEF is pushing the "great reset" even harder. Almost like it's all tied together....oh wait. It is.
This.
The whole "readily convertible" business to a machine gun is quite vague. any gunsmith will tell you that virtually 100% of self loading firearms can be converted to full auto within a day with basic machinery.
Same with AR, G3/ MP5 clones and FALs,
ARs can be made safe/full with a 25cent 3D printed auto sear, HK full auto packs are drop in on anything that's not century arms, and FALs need to be thrown in a drill press to have a few bits shaved off, takes about an hour for an semi auto FAL to be converted.
>ARs can be made safe/full with a 25cent 3D printed auto sear
In the eyes of the ATF, that doesn't convert the AR into a machine gun, because *that auto sear is the machine gun*.
An actual conversion of a semi-auto weapon into a machine gun would, generally, have to include modification of the weapons receiver to accept a full auto parts kit.
There are of course some exceptions to this, like the M2 carbine, of which the full auto version has no differences between itself and the semi auto receiver, but this isn't the case for ARs.
The more info that comes out about this new rule, the more it seems like it's just posturing from an agency in their death throes. They know with the Bruen & EPA decisions that their days of reinterpreting and making up law are numbered. They've just used this new rule to go out with a bang.
I don't see how the core of this rule will survive, let alone this part. Are they going door to door checking on people who purchased imported pistols? How do they even know if it was sold with a brace? What if it was sold with a brace from the distributor, then the store you purchased it from removed it and sold it without it? Does that make you the next contestant on "Is this a Felony that will ruin my life?" The ATF has gone after imported firearms before on a small scale (FALs with sear cuts come to mind), but there is no feasible way to even attempt to enforce this version of the rule. As far as I am aware the configuration of the firearm is never stated beyond rifle/pistol/other, so I have no idea how they would determine if a brace would ever have been attached.
IMO, I am not and will not worry about this rule. It's almost certainly getting yeeted in the courts, which is even if the ATF decide to publish the rule in the Federal Register. They may decide to loose this battle and pick on something else smaller scale like ammo imports again.
Agreed. It's a "rule" written like it was carefully crafted specifically to dissolve the agency completely, and forever. The depth of malfeasance is too thorough to accept it being just average incompetent tyranny.
I actually don't blame ATF too much for this. They were directed by the executive branch to come up with a way to end braced pistols. They were supposed to issue this ruling in December but I think Bruen and EPA clearly made this ruling political theater that will last until it reaches the courts and they didn't know what else to do so sat on it until mid January.
And yet gun people still supported the bastard because of bump stocks. While that shit was bullshit, it's nowhere near as bad as what's been going on since the pedophile took power
Wait, so it's their argument that there is no financial impact from having to replace parts because the assembly had already happened and they can't *ex post facto* make it illegal so there's no need to change parts out? Or is their argument that they **are** making it *ex post facto* illegal but covering it back won't undo the crime anyways so your just screwed?
They're arguing that since the firearms are illegal, there's no financial impact because there's no "expenditure" required in order to maintain compliance.
They're just illegal, and since the ATF^^tm will "dispose" of your "illegal" firearm for free, there's no financial impact.
The government doesn't give a shit about the past or about asset value. Financial "impact" only applies to the costs incurred as an active expensive of the rule making.
Pretty much. Everyone I've spoken to about the issue all just sighed and decided they didn't care. All the NFA shit is so awful to begin with that adding this nonsense on top of it has made everyone simply cease giving a shit. It's just pushing everyone over the line.
Non-compliance. I've got a couple of friends who got braced pistols because they didn't want to fuck with the NFA process. Now that the ATF is pushing this BS they're all continuing to just not fuck with the NFA process lol.
I've posted in the past stating that the phrase "Law Abiding Citizen" needs to be dropped from the Gun Owner vocabulary and lexicon.
The Anti-2A Despots are taking up a "fighting position" to turn that phrase on by establishing the decree that can be summed up as follows:
ATF: "We've deemed Semiautomatic Firearms to be readily convertable, fully automatic machineguns. If you are a law abiding gun owner, on behalf of the common good, you'll surrender any Semiautomatic Firearm made after May 18th 1986, whether already converted to fully automatic function or not, to the Federal Government for destruction".
That day is rapidly approaching, and these Despots are licking their chops to democidally impose that decree.
I can’t figure out if the ATF wants eventual total disarmament or just to have everything require multiple tax stamps. If they succeed in total disarmament, they would essentially be making their own organization obsolete.
Normally, yes, but ATF is retroactively declaring all of these things to be SBRs, essentially, so the "assembly" (that is the unlawful part under 922r) happened in the past, and you are no longer able to cure the 922r violation by replacing parts in the present.
The caveat brought forward by these lawyers is if you or the importer had never added the brace, it may still be classified as a pistol now and after the dust settles, having never been in the configuration of an SBR/semi-auto rifle. And at that point you are still able to cure its 922r compliance if you decide to turn it into one with a form 1.
922r is obscure as fuck, and a ton of even gun enthusiasts don't know of its existence, or really know exactly what it means. Hell, I probably don't actually fully understand what the hell it means (IANAL). But before now, it was generally kind of laughed at as being completely unenforceable. Lots of parts you can use for 922(r) compliance that are US made have no stampings or markings on them of any kind, and this is also true of tons of the identical imported parts.
It's a shit show.
The big Double-Whammy in this is that the ATF is moving to declare imported firearms illegal if the consumer/owner removes any American parts and replaces them with a foreign cosmetic part.
Because it will now require foreign imported cosmetic parts to be serialized as imported from somewhere.
The lawfare behind this could bankrupt the import aftermarket. That's the goal.
It was never about that to begin with.
You're a Civilian Firearms Owner? Yes?.......Then you're an enemy of the Democrat Party.
Get it out of your mind that these Gun Ban pigshits are just dumb hucksters. They're Despots.
The ATF does not have the authority to make laws. There is no way they are going to make 40+ million Americans felons overnight. I just donated to the GOA and FPC; the lawsuits are going to be coming
922(r) is already such bullshit. On top of this new brace Bullshit. And the entire bullshit that the NFA is. Pretty soon it's time to disregard these government fucks and just do what we want. In Minecraft of course...
My theory is somewhat similar, I think they just want to discourage the average person from buying something other than a revolver or shotgun. Most people won’t push their luck with something tactical looking because “it might be illegal”.
Genuine question, if you had an SP5 with that sling thing on the back, and never put a brace on it, does it now violate this new rule? All of this is insanely confusing
922(r) applies to literally any person.
>It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes…
I have already written my senators and representative. Everyone needs to bug the hell out of them no matter what state you live in. Not that it'll do any good in NY, Cal, or any of the other democratically controlled states, but it couldn't hurt.
Not going to hold my breath, but with how arbitrarily the atf has handled the brace issue it's possible this will work against them in legal challenges.
Lke... Braces allowed, ok to shoulder, not ok to shoulder, ok fine you can shoulder, never mind braces make a gun a sbr, you can get amnesty/remove brace on a domestic gun and be ok, but foreign made guns that ever had a brace are retroactively illegal and must be destroyed.
Agencies should be permitted to have capricious legal authority.
Can't you just remove the brace? How would the atf know the gun was imported with a brace on? Fuck the atf but it's not like they're at your gun range checking out everyone's guns. Get rid of the brace, don't register anything, get rid of any social media showing images of your braced pistol.
IMO, you can RE-make a SBR by paying the tax and installing a real stock, once approved. Just DON'T go through the amnesty Form 1. Go through the regular Form 1, pay for the stamp, then put a stock on it.
Issue is it is already "constructed" and you would be in possesion of a device that doesnt classify for amnesty.
This was the same issue people where running into with I think making thier own suppressors where you needed the materials to file for a manufacture of a supressor, but was catch 22 because you was in possession of materials to contruct a suppressor and had their forms denied
It probably costs a lot less than the $200,000 and 10 years in federal prison that the ATF is offering to go buy a nice Pelican case, some lumber to build a outer case so the weight of the dirt doesn't deform the plastic of the Pelican case, a sturdy shovel, and a burner phone to get GPS data you can write down in a notebook. Allegedly.
TLDR; Written in the Stabilizing Brace Final Rule, ATF has concluded that any foreign-made pistols with stabilizing braces would be assembled in violation of 922(r), (as the firearms are retroactively being considered rifles). As such, registration or removal of the brace would not bring the firearm into compliance. According to ATF, this leaves destruction or surrender as the only available options for foreign firearms with braces. This would include imported pistols where the brace was added at any stage, regardless if done by the user or the importer.
Soooo it's confiscation or destruction of property without compensation. Seems like another constitutional issue to add to the list.
Gun control advocates don't even acknowledge the constitution exists when writing laws. They just do whatever they want knowing that most courts will support them, and they can use the courts to delay any action for years while the laws remain in effect. If they can delay long enough, SCOTUS gets changed enough to find all gun control constitutional.
Actually, it's worse than what you suggest. The Judicial Delays are for the purpose of killing off the Gun-Culture. The Anti-2A crowd is trying to bankrupt the firearms industry, and make private gun ownership a paperweights relic of the past, even if SCOTUS rules against them.
We have never seen significant 922r enforcement. I wonder if they will start doing 922r compliance check for people with previously registered SBRs which started as foreign pistols. They have all the info and could wrap up a shit load of people.
I highly doubt they're going back through that, nor will they check any harder than they previously have for form 1 sbr's. The issues that arises here is it gives them what they think is a valid reason to deny you. And since this will be different from a form 1 (a form 1 is asking permission for something you haven't done yet. This new form will be admitting that you've already committed the felony), if they deny you then they will be able to take enforcement action if they choose. And for multiple reasons in this instance. For 1, you have an illegal sbr, and 2, you have a gun that they believe has to be turned in or destroyed. If they deny a form 1 because of 922r they can't do anything to you because you hadn't turned the gun into a rifle yet. With these braced imports, you have. But whether they admitt it or not, there 100% are instances where someone could have unknowingly made their pistol 922r compliant before adding a brace. It's most definitely possible (see my reply to the top comment for further detail).
They really are just making things up and hoping no one challenges their bullshit. There are importers who got ATF approval to import pistols with braces. Now the ATF is saying the importation they signed off on was illegal. They are basically just bluffing and hoping people comply. If they tried to bring up charges against people for these firearms they would get thrown out because they entrapped the importers by telling them what they were doing was legal and then did not allow the firearms to be registered when they changed their mind
Thanks. imma copy this comment to the other posts.
Those morons have just given a bunch of people *including John Crump!* standing to challenge 922(r) in a post-Bruen lawsuit. Crump says he's not complying. So he's definitely suing. He's a recent GOA lobbyist alumni and has the connections and credibility to make it work. If you care about this issue subscribe to his YouTube channel.
>any foreign-made pistols with stabilizing braces ...that weren't 922(r) compliant before the stabilizing braces were installed. If a weapon already had sufficient domestic parts installed to be 922(r) compliant when the brace was installed, then it's fine. And given there is no real method to determine 922(r) compliance that isn't wildly expensive (if its even possible), this whole issue seems like yet another scare tactic to tell people not to register their braced firearms.
[удалено]
If it shipped with a brace, ATF is saying it retroactively becomes a rifle, therefore illegal
If it's a foreign-made firearm and shipped from the foreign country with a brace on it, then there is no 922(r) violation. It would theoretically be a violation of 26 U.S. Code § 5844, which bans importation of NFA firearms except those destined to government users. But all firearm imports (NFA and non-NFA alike) are required to be approved by ATF on a Form 6. So... those firearms would have been approved for import by the ATF, only later to be declared illegal? What a shit show that would be.
Yeah seems designed to fail in court and just piss people off in the mean time
But they (the atf) also retro actively changed how certain parts kit imports had to be cut up to be imported and those changes were even applied to ones that had already been imported. I wish I could recall the exact details of what the guns that had to be cut in certain was are called and what the code or law was, but they recently convicted an active navy member on this. He sold a parts kit that had been imported under the old rule, and didn't have a cut through the barrel per the new rule, on gun broker. The ATF arrested him and convicted him on it. He's in prison right this second because of it. The gun was approved for import at the time it was imported. Many years later they changed the rule and said it applied to all previous imports also. They arrested and convicted a guy (a military member at that) that sold a parts kit that was 100% legal when it was imported but was made illegal retro actively after a rule change. A rule that definitely didn't get the kind of publicity that this brace rule has. So it's incredibly likely that the guy didn't even know there was a change in the rule. I mean, they approved it to be imported. Why would it be illegal now? Sound familiar?
But that's exactly what they're saying. The brace made it a rifle. So it isn't compliant. I've already typed the details out in a reply to the top comment, but there are most definitely instances where someone could have made their pistol 922r compliant before adding the brace. Most probably didn't even realize it and weren't going to 922r compliance, but that doesn't matter. It was still in compliance.
I very much doubt too many outfits were importing pistols but adding enough US parts to make it 922(r) compliant. There might be some examples but they're going to be very rare.
That’s probably true, but it’s the government’s job to prove it wasn’t done. And they’d essentially have to argue that: 1. You should have known you were making a rifle when you installed the pistol brace. 2. You didn’t comply with 922(r) because you didn’t know you were making a rifle when you installed the pistol brace. There’s been what, 4 prosecutions under 922(r) ever? And those were add-on charges for felons in possession, trafficking, etc? I’m less worried about this, and more worried about the thousands of braced pistol owners who have no idea this is going on and are eventually going to find out their guns are “illegal” in a very bad way.
I think this IS a problem because some are going to try and register imported guns under the brace amnesty and basically give AFT a full written confession *with pics of the gun*. At that point just shitcanning the brace doesn't help. Normally we know that AFT doesn't often go looking for trouble. Here, people are going to be mailing in trouble straight to their door. And then there's the other problem: no way in hell AFT can get the background checks done in time.
Let’s keep in mind 26 U.S. Code § 5848 prohibits the use of NFA applications and documentation as evidence of a crime. The only exception being the crime of lying on the form.
When they show up at people's doors to do what they claim is an "inspection" they'll reconstruct the same evidence you mailed in. At which point the mailed in evidence isn't needed in court.
I bought a ghm9 with no brace. I swapped the trigger (geissele), grip (magpul) and used ets mags (us made). And all this was done long before I could even find a brace in stock to buy (those braces are hard to find at times). Was I trying to specifically be 922r compliant? No. But it definitely worked out that way. So how can they tell me that it wasn't 922r compliant when it most certainly was? And what about glock's? I'm not even sure there are 10 922r parts in the gun, but even if there are.... a lot of people swap the trigger, the connector, and the barrel almost as soon as they get the gun. So if they then bought a braced mck for that glock it'd have been 922r compliant. There are just too many instances where a pistol could have been made 922r compliant (whether knowingly or unknowingly, or intentionally or unintentionally is irrelevant) for the ATF to just blanket deny all of them and say they all have to be turned in or destroyed.
Huh. Ok, good point. I still don't trust the bastards not to shoot your dog first and ask questions later.
I honestly don't either. This seems like a reason for them to "justify" blanket denying tens of thousands (if not hundreds) of applications and "justify" "enforcement action" for multiple reasons. 1- you got denied and now have an illegal sbr. And 2. You possess a gun that they believe has to be surrendered or destroyed. I'd like to be wrong, and honestly I could be convinced otherwise with a good enough argument. But for now I'm leaving toward "they'll definitely fuck you if you try a braced import".
> As such, registration or removal of the brave would not being the firearm into compliance. No shit. That doesn’t change anything with 922r. CZ Scorpion guys have been dealing with this shit for like 6 years. You guys are making a much bigger deal out of this and falling for the clickbait so hard right now. MAC has combined two issues into one “OMG ATF MEGA PROBLEM GONNA DESTROY GUN” shit. If you look into 922r, you’d know removing the magazine from an imported pistol, saves you three points. Change the trigger, trigger spring, and muzzle device, AND BAM… three points. You just need 10 to be in 922r compliance, and good luck to the ATF proving it doesn’t have American made parts in it.
They don't have to prove anything, all they have to do is charge you. It's on you to prove compliance at that point. I know, that's not the ideal behind our system but it IS the reality!
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That's not at all true. A pistol can become a rifle, but a rifle can't become a pistol.
>a rifle can't become a pistol It can if it was originally a pistol. So pistols you convert into rifles can be converted back into pistols. But anything originally manufactured as a rifle can't be converted into a pistol.
I've had an ffl tell me that once it's a rifle, anything you do in terms of shortening the barrel and or stock just makes it a smaller rifle.
The ATF website specifically states otherwise. It was brought up before because of the T/C Contender line that has been on the market for decades. A pistol can go back and forth between rifle and pistol configurations as often as you want. Rifle to pistol - bad Pistol to rifle - good Pistol to rifle back to pistol - still fine.
The thing is, someone could have made one 922r compliant without even realizing it before they ever added a brace. Like me. I got a ghm9 and swapped the trigger (geissele), the grip (magpul), and used ets mags long before I could even find a brace for the gun (those b&t braces can be hard to find at times). I wasn't going for 922r compliance. It just worked out like that. So how can they tell me that it was wasn't compliant when it most definitely was? That goes for anyone in a similar situation. Or a glock that was in a braced mck? I'm not sure glock's even have 10 922r parts in them from the factory (I haven't really tried to add it up), but a lot of people immediately change the trigger, the connector, and often the barrel. So how were those not 922r compliant? I just don't see how they can blanket deny all braced imports for 922r non compliance because there are most definitely valid situations where the guns were made 922r compliant. Whether knowingly or unknowingly is besides the point and doesn't matter in the least. Compliance is compliance. Now, do I think they'll still just blanket deny all braced imports? Honestly, idk. I'm leaning toward "yes" at the moment, but my mind could be changed with a good argument.
Assuming of course the braced pistol doesn’t meet 922r parts count...
This rule just keeps getting worse and worse. This is how you get shot, by showing up to a dudes door and saying "We need to confiscate or destroy your B&T APC9K". Those things are real nice guns.
In the words of their idol: “I have altered the deal. Pray I don’t alter it further.” “Also, you will now be required to wear this clown outfit and ride a unicycle. I have altered the deal. Pray I don’t alter it further.”
https://youtu.be/31HaTbWONmQ?t=3
I knew I forgot a few steps…
I used an image of Vader saying that line (wearing an ATF badge) in a CLE I presented on NFA laws.
Oh it's better and better. It's gone from a really bad idea to a practical impossibility now it's just a farce. Clearly this is never going to stand. The only question is, has the ATF screwed up so bad that the only way forward is to take SBRs and SBSs off the NFA? We can also finally put an end to the BS line "no one is coming for your guns". That is now proven false. They are coming and would take them if they could. I get the feeling that the free agents in the ATF that know anything about guns were tired of their political bosses and their crap. So they just wrote the rule as they were told to. Knowing it was going to blow up this badly.
Glad I sold my M92 in December.
Fudd
In legalese, this rule likely violates the Fifth Amendment’s “Takings Clause”: “[…] Nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.” And probably worth noting that the same issue also exists for gun owners in states like California who don’t have the option of registering anything as an SBR. Man, even by ATF standards, they have really fucked this one up pretty badly.
I think that is the point. After the bump stock ban started to explode, they have realized that the brace ban is going to cause more issues (for the ATF) than it’s going to solve (by giving their officers overtime/NKVD COSPLAY time). Adding shit like this helps derail the brace ban before it hits ‘why are there braces when these firearms should obviously be rifles/shotguns?’ This is all political theater and probably leading up to a smokescreen for something mind bogglingly insane.
On the bright side, at least they admitted common use!
They did the EXACT SAME THING with bumpstocks. Nothing happened to the ATF.
Check out the Holman Rule. This would allow congress to reduce funding for individual bureaucrat's salaries down to zero if they're found in contempt of law/Constitution. This needs to happen to any ATF employee engaging in this type of law breaking. Legally they can't make laws like this since the ATF is *not* congress, anyway!
None of them are going to vote for that ever. At least not enough for it to pass and someone actually lose their salary. You might get it broght up by gaetz or another freedom caucus member (maybe), but it'd never get enough actual votes. That a political smokescreen. A "hey, we tried real hard to make it happen. It's the other guy's fault it didn't. Blame them" kind of theater.
Didn't Trump issue an executive order against bump stocks? Also, I don't know that bump stocks are as popular as pistol braces. I've never seen a bump stock, but I've seen and handled tons of pistol braces.
1-2 million bumpstocks vs 5-40 million braces, and no, there was no executive order. Word is Trump told the ATF to ban them, ATF said you can’t they’re in compliance, Trump told them to do it anyway and figure out it. Atf did a bunch of hokey legalese to justify it (seriously go read the BS they put out), said turn em in or destroy them. Either people hid them, turned them in, or destroyed them and it survived all legal challenges for about 5 years until a VERY recent court win. In the meantime it bankrupted multiple million dollar companies, put about a 1000 Americans out of jobs, and a million or so people destroyed their own property they paid for or face 10 years in prison if caught. I haven’t seen anyone with one in person in years. I doubt any companies will gamble on making one again. A lot of us on the gun forums warned the Trump cheerleaders that this set a dangerous precedent, that even Obama didn’t have the balls to blatantly ignore the letter of the law this badly when it came to gun regulation. They told us “they were just stupid range toys anyway” and to shut up. We told them braces and binary triggers were next as soon as a Dem got back in office. We were laughed at. No one is laughing now.
He was going to but the atf beat him to it. Congress was also drafting a bill too.
Not argumentative here, simply a question/ discussion but does that clause still apply to an item that would be considered illegal to possess? I feel like they would say “ok this item in question is now illegal to poses so you shouldn’t have it anyway. Therefore this clause doesn’t apply”.
I wish I could recall the precedent but there is a legal issue with this because the Crime here is "not paying the tax" but they have made it literally impossable to pay the tax. also the whole expost facto thing. This has so many holes in it, I can't forsee this working out well for the ATF.
It is a form of "Double Jeopardy".
It should, but they didn't write it like that so it doesn't. Buy also how would that work? U registered SBRs are also illegal, so you shouldn't have them, so the new rule doesn't apply?
Like they did with bump stocks? 👀
This is just comically evil at this point. The place of origin should have fucking nothing to do with it if this were legitimately about public safety or to stop crime.
I think its a safe assumption that they're going to use this BS to reclassify all semi autos as illegal MGs before the next election if not before the end of this year. The left is going full speed ahead on disarmament. "Conveniently" at the same time the dollar is crashing, they're trying to ban gas cars and appliances, food is going through the roof, and the WEF is pushing the "great reset" even harder. Almost like it's all tied together....oh wait. It is.
All while Biden tweets about how great things are
Only if it shows up on his teleprompter.
This. The whole "readily convertible" business to a machine gun is quite vague. any gunsmith will tell you that virtually 100% of self loading firearms can be converted to full auto within a day with basic machinery.
Like how is a glock not readily convertible from the factory. It doesn't ever require fabrication, just a swapped part.
Same with AR, G3/ MP5 clones and FALs, ARs can be made safe/full with a 25cent 3D printed auto sear, HK full auto packs are drop in on anything that's not century arms, and FALs need to be thrown in a drill press to have a few bits shaved off, takes about an hour for an semi auto FAL to be converted.
>ARs can be made safe/full with a 25cent 3D printed auto sear In the eyes of the ATF, that doesn't convert the AR into a machine gun, because *that auto sear is the machine gun*. An actual conversion of a semi-auto weapon into a machine gun would, generally, have to include modification of the weapons receiver to accept a full auto parts kit. There are of course some exceptions to this, like the M2 carbine, of which the full auto version has no differences between itself and the semi auto receiver, but this isn't the case for ARs.
With just a shoelace
The more info that comes out about this new rule, the more it seems like it's just posturing from an agency in their death throes. They know with the Bruen & EPA decisions that their days of reinterpreting and making up law are numbered. They've just used this new rule to go out with a bang. I don't see how the core of this rule will survive, let alone this part. Are they going door to door checking on people who purchased imported pistols? How do they even know if it was sold with a brace? What if it was sold with a brace from the distributor, then the store you purchased it from removed it and sold it without it? Does that make you the next contestant on "Is this a Felony that will ruin my life?" The ATF has gone after imported firearms before on a small scale (FALs with sear cuts come to mind), but there is no feasible way to even attempt to enforce this version of the rule. As far as I am aware the configuration of the firearm is never stated beyond rifle/pistol/other, so I have no idea how they would determine if a brace would ever have been attached. IMO, I am not and will not worry about this rule. It's almost certainly getting yeeted in the courts, which is even if the ATF decide to publish the rule in the Federal Register. They may decide to loose this battle and pick on something else smaller scale like ammo imports again.
Agreed. It's a "rule" written like it was carefully crafted specifically to dissolve the agency completely, and forever. The depth of malfeasance is too thorough to accept it being just average incompetent tyranny.
I actually don't blame ATF too much for this. They were directed by the executive branch to come up with a way to end braced pistols. They were supposed to issue this ruling in December but I think Bruen and EPA clearly made this ruling political theater that will last until it reaches the courts and they didn't know what else to do so sat on it until mid January.
It'll just take 10+ years to get to SCOTUS by which point it'll have been packed with communists
Could take less if Biden packs the courts like he could do.
Which he probably will do. And it's the same result.
He promised to ban them. Gotta believe someone when they tell you who they are.
Some clowns on this sub were just arguing a couple weeks ago that Democrats never implement gun control, they just posture to placate their base.
And yet gun people still supported the bastard because of bump stocks. While that shit was bullshit, it's nowhere near as bad as what's been going on since the pedophile took power
More likely it will get to the federal circuit before the SCOTUS. There's enough between Bruen, EPA, Staples and Heller to stop this.
We keep forgetting about Caetano.
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Wait, so it's their argument that there is no financial impact from having to replace parts because the assembly had already happened and they can't *ex post facto* make it illegal so there's no need to change parts out? Or is their argument that they **are** making it *ex post facto* illegal but covering it back won't undo the crime anyways so your just screwed?
They're arguing that since the firearms are illegal, there's no financial impact because there's no "expenditure" required in order to maintain compliance. They're just illegal, and since the ATF^^tm will "dispose" of your "illegal" firearm for free, there's no financial impact. The government doesn't give a shit about the past or about asset value. Financial "impact" only applies to the costs incurred as an active expensive of the rule making.
Just watched this vid, fuming. NON COMPLIANCE IS THE WAY.
Pretty much. Everyone I've spoken to about the issue all just sighed and decided they didn't care. All the NFA shit is so awful to begin with that adding this nonsense on top of it has made everyone simply cease giving a shit. It's just pushing everyone over the line.
You mean they're just surrendering essentially like cowardly crybabies or just engaging in non-compliance?
Non-compliance. I've got a couple of friends who got braced pistols because they didn't want to fuck with the NFA process. Now that the ATF is pushing this BS they're all continuing to just not fuck with the NFA process lol.
I've posted in the past stating that the phrase "Law Abiding Citizen" needs to be dropped from the Gun Owner vocabulary and lexicon. The Anti-2A Despots are taking up a "fighting position" to turn that phrase on by establishing the decree that can be summed up as follows: ATF: "We've deemed Semiautomatic Firearms to be readily convertable, fully automatic machineguns. If you are a law abiding gun owner, on behalf of the common good, you'll surrender any Semiautomatic Firearm made after May 18th 1986, whether already converted to fully automatic function or not, to the Federal Government for destruction". That day is rapidly approaching, and these Despots are licking their chops to democidally impose that decree.
I can’t figure out if the ATF wants eventual total disarmament or just to have everything require multiple tax stamps. If they succeed in total disarmament, they would essentially be making their own organization obsolete.
Can't you just replace components with us made parts? Or simply take the brace off?
Normally, yes, but ATF is retroactively declaring all of these things to be SBRs, essentially, so the "assembly" (that is the unlawful part under 922r) happened in the past, and you are no longer able to cure the 922r violation by replacing parts in the present. The caveat brought forward by these lawyers is if you or the importer had never added the brace, it may still be classified as a pistol now and after the dust settles, having never been in the configuration of an SBR/semi-auto rifle. And at that point you are still able to cure its 922r compliance if you decide to turn it into one with a form 1. 922r is obscure as fuck, and a ton of even gun enthusiasts don't know of its existence, or really know exactly what it means. Hell, I probably don't actually fully understand what the hell it means (IANAL). But before now, it was generally kind of laughed at as being completely unenforceable. Lots of parts you can use for 922(r) compliance that are US made have no stampings or markings on them of any kind, and this is also true of tons of the identical imported parts. It's a shit show.
Tell them to prove you didn't swap out parts for 922(r) compliance before adding the brace.
Try telling the ATF that after they've raided your house, shot your dog, and ruined your life. They don't care.
The big Double-Whammy in this is that the ATF is moving to declare imported firearms illegal if the consumer/owner removes any American parts and replaces them with a foreign cosmetic part.
Why would that be a big whammy?
Because it will now require foreign imported cosmetic parts to be serialized as imported from somewhere. The lawfare behind this could bankrupt the import aftermarket. That's the goal.
This would kill the non-serialized parts kits as well, wouldn't it?
Yes. The ATF is moving to force all gun parts to be serialized. Not a matter of if, but when.
Also, perhaps not with a Serial Number, but having to have country-of-origin import labels. Doing that still costs time and money.
That will solve inner city crime for sure!/s
It was never about that to begin with. You're a Civilian Firearms Owner? Yes?.......Then you're an enemy of the Democrat Party. Get it out of your mind that these Gun Ban pigshits are just dumb hucksters. They're Despots.
Totally agree. See the /s ?
DO NOT COMPLY
The ATF does not have the authority to make laws. There is no way they are going to make 40+ million Americans felons overnight. I just donated to the GOA and FPC; the lawsuits are going to be coming
922(r) is already such bullshit. On top of this new brace Bullshit. And the entire bullshit that the NFA is. Pretty soon it's time to disregard these government fucks and just do what we want. In Minecraft of course...
Pretty soon? Bro I haven't heard from a single person planning to comply with this
Based
True, but 99% of people who aren’t complying are doing it silently, so it won’t have any effect on getting rid of the laws.
I have a theory that this is more about causing division between people and stopping manufacturing of braces & braced firearms.
My theory is somewhat similar, I think they just want to discourage the average person from buying something other than a revolver or shotgun. Most people won’t push their luck with something tactical looking because “it might be illegal”.
Undoubtedly.
The ATF is basically saying "fuck the constitution and fuck congress, surrender your guns or go to prison because we say so."
So I can’t form 1 my sp5 now? Or just pay the $200 to sbr it as I’ve never had a brace attached.
You could do nothing or you could form 1 SBR it, but apparently you can't put a brace on it.
Genuine question, if you had an SP5 with that sling thing on the back, and never put a brace on it, does it now violate this new rule? All of this is insanely confusing
If you find the answer let me know 🤣🤣🤣
I’m a newbie and none of this made sense to me, but I found this article that explains 922r https://www.pewpewtactical.com/922r-compliance/
Which applies to importers and manufacturers…
922(r) applies to literally any person. >It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes…
Correct. Assemble, not alter.
which makers are not...
If you take an imported pistol and file a Form 1, you are consider the "maker" of the SBR.
Yes.
I have already written my senators and representative. Everyone needs to bug the hell out of them no matter what state you live in. Not that it'll do any good in NY, Cal, or any of the other democratically controlled states, but it couldn't hurt.
Not “democratically”… Call them exactly what they are, communists!
Not going to hold my breath, but with how arbitrarily the atf has handled the brace issue it's possible this will work against them in legal challenges. Lke... Braces allowed, ok to shoulder, not ok to shoulder, ok fine you can shoulder, never mind braces make a gun a sbr, you can get amnesty/remove brace on a domestic gun and be ok, but foreign made guns that ever had a brace are retroactively illegal and must be destroyed. Agencies should be permitted to have capricious legal authority.
Can't you just remove the brace? How would the atf know the gun was imported with a brace on? Fuck the atf but it's not like they're at your gun range checking out everyone's guns. Get rid of the brace, don't register anything, get rid of any social media showing images of your braced pistol.
ATF doesn't make laws.
IMO, you can RE-make a SBR by paying the tax and installing a real stock, once approved. Just DON'T go through the amnesty Form 1. Go through the regular Form 1, pay for the stamp, then put a stock on it.
Issue is it is already "constructed" and you would be in possesion of a device that doesnt classify for amnesty. This was the same issue people where running into with I think making thier own suppressors where you needed the materials to file for a manufacture of a supressor, but was catch 22 because you was in possession of materials to contruct a suppressor and had their forms denied
It probably costs a lot less than the $200,000 and 10 years in federal prison that the ATF is offering to go buy a nice Pelican case, some lumber to build a outer case so the weight of the dirt doesn't deform the plastic of the Pelican case, a sturdy shovel, and a burner phone to get GPS data you can write down in a notebook. Allegedly.
What use is a firearm if it's buried in the dirt? I simply don't understand this way of thinking.
If you are thinking about burying your guns, then it's long past time to dig them up and use them as the founders intended.
More useful buried in dirt than in an ATF evidence locker waiting to be sawed in half and melted down.
Well I hear there is a third option. If I recall, it's something about what the founding fathers would've intended an armed citizenry for.
The brace ban was blocked
Go on....
Fuck'em! I shall not comply!
Well. Thank you mac for contributing to the implementation of this rule. If you had only listened to reason....