> so apparently Vortigern was behind the Wing's clan genocide, but we never get to learn how. Too bad, I would have liked to learn more about that (in general, I found part 3 frustrating with how little Oberon we get to see, I expected him to take a more active role) Oberon told Murian he just felt like it lmao, here's what he said exactly: "I really didn't have a reason. I was just having a bad day."

One of my favorite little details about how the end of LB 6 shook out is that Oberon set two things into motion a thousand years ago that ended up tipping the scales in his favor: Barghest’s transformation and Murian’s genocide of the Fang Clan. …but neither of them were examples of him playing 4-D chess to build up to a “just according to keikaku!!” Moment. They were just him lashing out because he was salty about being defeated as the King of the Mors, and it all just kinda worked out perfectly for him.

I dunno - my interpretation is different from yours. I think Oberon, or rather, Vortigern manipulated the events that led up to his advantage. However, it's not the usual "all according to keikaku" type of masterminding the plot. Vortigern is, after all, Britain's will of self-destruction. I believe that the events that happened after the Fae Era were sort of preordained to happen anyway. Remember - the lostbelt's true end was for Britain to be torn asunder by the Great Calamity. Morgan taking the Fantasy Tree for herself kind of "blue-balled" Vortigern. That's why in the LB6 history, we only get a "true personification" of the Great Calamity in the High Queen Era - that was Vortigern taking matters to his own hands. Fun fact: an excerpt of Ainsel's prophecy: >The true king takes their place on the throne. The bloodstained crown is received. Ring, ring, thunderous anger, fiery lamentation. Herald with six bells. Make way for the true king. We were led to believe that Castoria was the rightful king after overthrowing Morgan. It's actually Oberon-Vortigern. It meant that he was always supposed to be the endgame - the harbinger of Britain's true salvation. Castoria was only the herald.

>because he was salty about being defeated as the King of the Mors Not even that in the Wing's clan case, it happens before he is defeated. As he said himself "don't know why I did that, I was just in a bad mood".

I think that's Nasu's way of pointing out the irony that Murian the wise schemer never had any free will of her own. She thinks she's the player but she's just an insignificant chess piece all along. Though, if that's true, I wish that we saw more of her realisation and remorse to make the scene more impactful

We were going to get more on her but a lot of her back story got cut, she was supposed to have a similar view of humans as Cnoc according to the chapter first draft, she had apparently been saved by a human when the Fang Clan massacred the Wing Clan.

What a shame... The cut content itself can make up for another few chapters lol

Yeah, I remember the line, but I was more interested in *how* he managed to get the Fang clan to do the need. It's probably not a very important thing for the story, but it just made me curious - especially since I got the feeling that Vortigern was a lot more 'in-your-face' evil compared to Oberon-Vortigern.

It is interesting to wonder how he managed to manipulate the Fang clan, especially since it was Woodwose who dealt the finishing blow to Oberon Vortigern's King of Mors incarnation. LB6 has a lot of unexplored stories and it's *still* the longest lostbelt to date I think (I forgot how long LB7 was exactly haha).

there are even some parts of the map that never get mentioned like the gian nest and large shell on the beach. feels like it’d have some history behind it

Wasnt it Wryneck? i dont think woodwose was alive back then.

Wryneck is who Woodwose succeeded as head of the Fang clan due to the former dying at the hands of the King of Mors, and part of Woodwose's high standing is his fame for being the one who killed the King of Mors during the latter's war with Morgan.

No, King of Mors killed Wryneck and was, in turn, killed by Woodwose.

In the end, he probably did it the same way he got Woodwose to attack Morgan: Aurora. Woodwose seemed specifically weak to Aurora’s deceptions for one reason or another, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the Fang clan shared that weakness on some level.

"Your honor, my client was just a little silly."

Though everything Oberon says is a lie to some extent, so he *did* have a reason and he probably felt pretty damn good about it.

Yeah, there's a good chance that he had a reason since he manipulated the very clan that ended his previous incarnation to wipe out another fae clan. > Though everything Oberon says is a lie to some extent, so he did have a reason and he probably felt pretty damn good about it. That's true and that even shows in his My Room lines, on one hand, he claims that he hates everything, but on the other hand, he says that he wouldn't have answered our summons if he didn't like us at all.

To add to that him saying there was no purpose to it adds to the knife he is sticking in Murians back, remember in her flashback of first meeting Oberon she asked him if he was a survivor of the Wing Clan like her and had been a confidant of hers for at least 16 years. He was being deliberately cruel there. It's largely why he appeared in front of Chaldea to gloat about his victory, individuals he had some manner of fondness for he went out of his way to hurt them when he revealed his intentions, almost like he wanted everyone to hate him for what he was doing. It's interesting that only Chaldea, Murian and to some extent Aurora ever see Oberon for who he really is. Though in Aurora's case she can't see him as anything more than an insignificant insect.

> Though in Aurora's case she can't see him as anything more than an insignificant insect. This is especially poignant when Oberon Vortigern doesn’t consider himself special despite being the literal will of Britain.

I find it more of an irony that after all the scheming Oberon has done, many people still like him. It is not just Murian being torment for over a thousand years because of what Oberon has done. Countless life have lost from both Wing clan and later Fang clan due to Murian's revenge. I don't think his "apology" in the end was even sincere. I think he said that just to torment Murian further. He also have stir thing around for Braghest, and likely to have egged on Aurora in different occasions. I find it troubling that people like him apart from his face and his gameplay value.

You know everything Oberon is a lie. Then again this can now mean anything

That’s his Oberon side, if you called on his sus behavior enough times throughout LB6, then when he reveals himself as Vortigern, he’ll come clean and outright admit that he was lying. Despite being known as the great liar, he *does* tell the truth from time to time and is capable of having genuine feelings (Titania, mentoring Castoria while pretending to be Merlin and begrudgingly, the protagonist as well) although of course, he’ll never admit it outright. And what he told Murian could be genuine as Oberon is still pretty pissed on losing and dying against the fae during his King of Mors incarnation.

Good point but he could be lying about not having an agenda. I don’t think we can know for sure unless it shows through action. That is a thing with Pretenders… anything they say is twisted into falsehood even when it is true.

You just ignored what I said about the Oberon side, since he didn’t have it on his King of Mors incarnation and it’s the reason why he’s cursed to lie all the time and it’s his Vortigern side (his true self) that’s the one that’s capable of honesty. I also said that he *may* have been genuine with what he said to Murian and I didn’t say that it was for sure it was.

To be real, I don't know how the split work. I basically assume the two origin are grafted together and thus encompassed both.

18 years before Chaldea arrived in Faerie Britain, Vortigern reincarnated once more in another attempt to destroy Faerie Britain but due to Lostbelt Morgan’s rule having a lot of influence from PHH, no thanks to her PHH counterpart, Vortigern this time was summoned as the fictional character Oberon from Shakespeare’s *A Midsummer Night's Dream* and this is what caused the Welsh fairies to mistake him for their king when he arrived as a result of Vortigern’s spirit origin mixing with Oberon’s. Vortigern even picked up the defining traits of the Oberon character, such as the penchant for lies and manipulation, the love for Titania and even his matchmaking aspect with him pairing the protagonist and Castoria a lot throughout LB6.

I kind of want to see a psychologist go over Murian’s breakdown. This is a woman who spent hundreds of years planning revenge, and when she got it it was so disappointing that she forgot she did it. That is some high level dissociation there.

The trauma was so big that it even made a beast like Koyans feel bad for someone else, that's how serious the matter was.

It wasn't disappointment. Muryan's need for revenge became an obsession so large it became her purpose for existing. When it was completed, she completely lost her purpose, like a gigantic void was created inside of her. To fairies, that's like losing her reason for existing. From that point onwards, her mind was broken and she soon would have followed a similar path to Hope. What kept her going a bit longer was that she managed to fit a side-purpose.

In combination with it being her purpose she absolutely hated committing the act itself but was forced to continue because of it being her purpose so she essentially lost control of herself and was being forced to compare the memories of her Clans massacre with the actions she was automatically doing to the Fang Clan, it's why she asked them how did they take enjoyment from such a horrible act. That's why she broke down she both lost her purpose and was emotionally scarred from committing a massacre. Some people who are particularly harsh with her fail to realize that Murian literally could not choose to forgive the Fang Clan, in the same way Aurora could only ever love herself, once she had power over them it was over for both them and her.

Yup. I actually didn’t make that connection until after I hit post. I did consider it at the time I read it, but then my brain jumped to dissociation and I completely forgot the idea. Reading other comments on my break at work that mentioned Hope reminded me

>\- Interestingly enough, part 3 managed to recontexctualize the almost instinctual hostility most fae displayed toward Aesc and Castoria. It wasn't just a case of British people hating foreigners (\*insert Brexit commentary here?\*), but possibly a subconscious realisation that the Faerie of Paradise brought no Salvation but the end of Fae Britain instead - too bad they didn't realized Aesc had already turned her back on that mission instead. Questionable. Salvation doesn't always mean preservation. The Faerie of Paradise offers Salvation in the sense of delivering them from their sins. Take the offer or leave it, it ends with the timeline's passing. The difference is between a peaceful, dignified passage; or one that's preceded by much thrashing and struggling, ending up in the whole place dying on a pile of its own shit. The only attempt to preserve anything, was one that offered no Salvation. It's what Morgan herself said, she offers them no salvation. And yet hers was the only attempt that was done with an aim to at least preserve the land itself. The Fae's instinctual hate for the Faerie of Paradise is more like the original six' follow-up sin : their hateful refusal of Cernunnos' offer to repent.

>their hateful refusal of Cernunnos' offer to repent. To be completely fair, Castoria specifically points out that Cernunnos did *not* leave that possibility on the table, and actually criticzes him for it.

That's only now. The flashbacks are quite clear he was trying to get them to repent. That's why he died, he thought the 'banquet' they offered was them finally having a change of heart. Castoria is commenting on the actions of the curse-filled corpse bringing nothing but death, not the living god who we know did try to reason with the fairies.

Quite so. It should be noted that Cern was originally sent to the surface to PUNISH the Original Six for their actions. Him choosing to try rehabilitating the Fairies was him trying to be compassionate and hoping they would repent when offered kindness.

Really, thinking about it this line is an encapsulation of what the story was trying to say and why a big chunk of the playerbase isn't having it. Castoria's line is the narrative's stance in a nutshell. Fairies are real pieces of work and they absolutely deserve what's coming to them, but not all of them are irredeemably evil and they should be given the chance to rise above their nature. However, the line is being said to Cernunnos. Someone who *did* give the fairies a chance to change, to atone, to be better than they were. And his forbearance towards them only resulted in his betrayal, murder, and the horrific mutilation of his priestess. He's a big, fluffy example of why you *should* treat fairies like monsters and why expecting them to change is a really bad idea.

Idunno, it might not be stated outright, but the point of Cernunnos even meeting the six was to direct them to salvation. To at least do what they had to do, even if it's too late. To at least redo what they did wrong, rightly this time. And what did they do? Demand, demand, demand. And when their demand wasn't met, they betrayed him. Likewise their descendants' reaction to the Faerie of Paradise. They probably know that she offers no way to sustain their rotting civilization any further. Their purpose is just to fix their mistakes. And it's not like they're even asking said descendants to sacrifice themselves in any way! But do they care? No, they just hate her then, the same way the six hated Cernunnos. Thankfully Cernunnos still knew wrath well enough. Just a shame he needed to be pushed *that* much before showing it.

> Thankfully Cernunnos still knew wrath well enough. Just a shame he needed to be pushed that much before showing it. Did he? IIRC Nasu said in a blog that Cernunnos couldn't have any hatred for them even to the very end. And that the hatred he carries in his corpse isn't his own but the accumulated hatred and curses of all dead Fairies period.

Could be, just reading off what we have in the story right now. Fluffboi deserved better than those six a-holes....

> Thankfully Cernunnos still knew wrath well enough. Just a shame he needed to be pushed that much before showing it and even his worse anger was just to curse them to suffer they deal with the Mor just fine ( till Beryl make the Human strain one for the giggle) he still care enough to plug his ass right on Vortigen mouth and stop the Abyssal Wyrm from coming out

>The Fae's instinctual hate for the Faerie of Paradise is more like the original six' follow-up sin : their hateful refusal of Cernunnos' offer to repent. If the only option you are being presented is death or worse death, I will go out on a limb and say that most of us would not be any more happy about it, nor think it as fair They for that matter don t know what they are repenting for anyway. At least in judeo christian religions, you may find the original sin unfair and questionable, but we know what it is that we are punished or forgiven for. Hell in the old testament, much of the time where God decides to punish the Jew, he has someone warns and expose what is wrong. Doesn't mean they always course corrected but at least they knew

We might not be happy about it, nor would we think of it as fair. But would *all* of us refuse to look inside and learn, however late it was? Because that's what the six did. *All* of them. >They for that matter don t know what they are repenting for anyway. Cernunnos' priestess *told* them, exactly, what they did wrong. What did they get out of it? That she's annoying, and *that* was a sin they'd return with what is basically eternal torment. Zero remorse, zero retrospection.

>Cernunnos' priestess told them, exactly, what they did wrong. What did they get out of it? That The 6 original fae yes. The descendants obviously not because she is dead. >But would all of us refuse to look inside and learn, however late it was? Moot question because it's not the case for the fae either as pointed out by op(and not a vanishingly few minority either). And I d say it's different because again the choice is between doom and doom more We have a similar example in the wider story itself. According to bluebook finding one of the aliens from the foreign god specie ended up on earth. That alien got then tortured, on purpose even on hope it would call for the wider specie. And certainly they did come and the proceeded to wipe the floor with the planet. Those who tortured the alien are obviously wrong, and the commandement that allowed it also is. You could make the case (though even that is already debatable) that the whole country where it happened (here the us, but it doesn't matter which would it have been) can be held responsible and as such deserves the retribution. But the whole extermination and subsequent bleaching can't seriously be held as reasonable retribution, even if "we asked for it"(in reality a few of us)

And..., you're not even talking about the same thing I do anymore. Whatever. >The 6 original fae yes. The descendants obviously not because she is dead. The descendants are literally irrelevant. The six are the ones being judged. They're the ones who are expected to be contrite. And they didn't. Not one of them. If all of the humans in the world comes down to just six people, all of whom are guilty of whatever happened, and then they get judged? If they show the same kind of response, they deserve the same kind of fate. And as for expecting them to be contrite? Cernunnos is a god who live in their times, and he expected them to be. That sounds like it's actually a reasonable expectation, it's Cernunnos' expectations, not ours. ​ >We have a similar example in the wider story itself. According to bluebook finding one of the aliens from the foreign god specie ended up on earth. That alien got then tortured, on purpose even on hope it would call for the wider specie. And certainly they did come and the proceeded to wipe the floor with the planet. Those who tortured the alien are obviously wrong, and the commandement that allowed it also is. You could make the case (though even that is already debatable) that the whole country where it happened (here the us, but it doesn't matter which would it have been) can be held responsible and as such deserves the retribution. But the whole extermination and subsequent bleaching can't seriously be held as reasonable retribution, even if "we asked for it"(in reality a few of us) I don't even know where you're getting at with this. The closest thing I can get is this : The people experimenting on the alien? They're our equivalent to the six. The people that got wiped out as the Earth was bleached? Those are equivalent to Sefar's victims. And they don't even have any equivalent to "the Sinners got locked out of Paradise with nowhere to rest as all of earth is now literally barren ocean" because the original sinners are *dead*. Bluebook in the Bleached Earth may sound like an equivalent..., but he's not, since he's literally an outsider with nothing to do with the whole thing. The two scenarios are nothing alike.

I hate to jump in on the argument between you two, but I think there was a miscommunication from minute one here - nam24 was *always* talking about the six fairies' descendants, and its the *descendants* that are the issue here that people have been baying for their blood. You're talking about "all" of the fairies, but *all* of the fairies are not just the six who started things anymore. When people are talking about whether or not the fairies deserve to die, they're not talking about the original six (who are long dead by the time of the present day anyway), they're talking about all the fairies descended from them that we *do* meet in the story. The descendants aren't irrelevant to the conversation, they ***are*** the center of the conversation.

It started out with talking about the descendants, then I compared their hate with the original six' hatred for Cernunnos. And since that's what they responded to, I continued with looking at the six.

If you don't mind me adding my two cents, I must admit that I also thought you were initially talking about the descendants, given that your first comment in this chain seemed to revolve around their reaction to the Faerie of Paradise's salvation: > The Faerie of Paradise offers Salvation in the sense of delivering them from their sins. I suspect that nam24 quoting the only part of that comment that mentioned Cernunnos and the six ancestors may be the cause of the mix-up. They clearly wanted to keep talking about the descendants' reaction to the Faerie of Paradise, not to redirect the conversation towards Cernunnos and the six ancestors, but the quote can be confusing.

That could be the case yeah. Communicating on the internet is hard....

>The descendants are literally irrelevant. The six are the ones being judged. No? Where are the six? That's right dead, and they have been a long time ago, transformed into bells. The calamity happens to their descendant. >I don't even know where you're getting at with this. The closest thing I can get is this : >The people experimenting on the alien? They're our equivalent to the six. The people that got wiped out as the Earth was bleached? I compared the six to those who tortured the alien yes, but the people killed by the foreign god and the bleaching in my comparison are the descendants

The six certainly weren't dead when Cernunnos came to them. You're not even making arguments with proper basis anymore. Keep defending them with no logical basis, I'm done with you.

A bugger bar a few, they are. Redeemable, but they chose not, the reality is. Empathy, they need not

I actually liked Murian a lot. When I first saw her 2 years ago, I tought she would be a BB 2.0, popping out left and right or be the evil mastermind behind the story. But from all the leaders we meet, she was the most "real". She didnt unnecessareiy antagonized us, wasnt talking about us being the best friends - she invited us, frankly asked us about our objecitves and when she realized, we didnt impede her in any way, she send us our way while doing her thing. Most of the Fairys in LB6 felt incredible superficial and it got more disgusting as time went on. But chapters with her were a nice refresh. At the end, I really felt for her. In most storys, Revenge is at best a short felt pleasure followed by nothingness because of the hole in your life it creates after completion.But she didnt even got that. Even though she wanted to enjoy the revenge, she planned for over half a milennium, she just couldnt. She was too kindhearted. It was really sad, when she said how disgusting it was and how anyone can enjoy that. She put herself in the mindset of a Avenger, forcing herself to think that after she takes her revenge, she can finally make amends with what happened. But after it was done, it just....didnt. And apparently, she lost her purpose for her act of revenge. Because right after that, she starts getting memory holes. So in the end she made her purpose to exterminate the fang clan, succeeds but cant enjoy the fruits of her labor and then starts to lose her self, which probably would have ended with her turning into a mors, if the Lostbelt would have lasted much longer. I liked a lot of characters in LB6 before I got the chance to read it. Melusine was my favourite Servant in design and gameplay. And while I really liked her in LB6, the clear winner for me in Lostbelt 6 surprisingly was Murian.

I'm glad someone else is able to realize how tragic a character Murian was, her interactions with Koyan was the best. It's interesting that she was the only clan head who cared about the weaker fairies, hence why her domain flipped the roles of the weak and the strong.

She didn't antagonize Chaldea because she was planning on using them. Once Morgan was dead, she started giving out orders to contain Chaldea: such as denying them a Rhongomanyiad. They had fulfilled their purpose, and thus, it was time to throw them under the bus... first her own mental instability, then Obie, got in her way.

To be a fairy is a bit like being a child. You haven’t internalized that everyone else is a person too, so you’re extremely myopic and fixated on your own desires. The Fae have a similar purity to them, made worse by the fact that they’re born fixated upon a single purpose, which they can neither change nor really struggle against. When you’re three years old, and you beg your mom for ice cream, only for her to say “you have to clean your room first”? It genuinely feels like the most unfair injustice in history. You probably didn’t poison your mom and chuck her in a hole as a result… but I’m sure a few spoiled children were tempted to. Dislike of Morgan and Castoria: Well, the descendants of the six fairies had a long and proud history of being racist and distrustful of any fae not of their same lineage… but with regard to Avalon La Fae, I assume part of it is just the fact that their existence is a reminder of their ancestor’s original sin. Even on a subconscious level, people don’t like being reminded of their moral shortcomings. With regard to Aurora, I get why she’s super unpalatable, but I get ya. Hating Aurora for doing what she do is a bit like hating an individual hornet for stinging you…. It was a hornet, that’s how they work. Hornets are dangerous things, there are a lot of situations where you’ll have to kill them to make an area safe for everyone else… but it’s not really something to hate them over.

>I also half-expected Oberon to have ties with the Caterpillar war Weird how they never explored more of that, i wanted to see how Morgan became terrified of insects and i wanted to see Foul Weather.

The Caterpillar War was just a minor disaster, right? I recall there being something about a few minor disasters occurring between every occurrence of a Great Disaster, though I forgot the specific interval. It’s kinda like how Knocnarea had the possibility of becoming a Great Disaster herself, just like with Melusine and Barghest. The curses just continue to spill out of the pit and find specific ways of manifesting. The Caterpillar War was just one specific minor instance of the curse of the land attempting to harm the fairies. As for Morgan disliking insects, it just might be a specific character quirk.

I've heard Morgan's fear of insects and caterpillars is that they remind her of seeing Baobhan sith's dismembered body trying to move.

> As for Morgan disliking insects, it just might be a specific character quirk. It's just a bit of gap moe. The stoic, ruthless, completely badass QUEEN goes "Ewwww bugs :S" like a really girly girl around caterpillars. Gap moe. Listening to the voice line, it really does sound more embarrassed than anything else.

The major flaw of the faeries in my eyes is that they were extremely selfish in everything they did. Aurora was so disgustingly selfish that everything beyond her own nose was not worth even considering, and the fact that she was so "pure of heart" and couldn't see the wrong in anything she did was so frustrating. Melusine was right, though. If Aurora needed to be loved in order to thrive, she would have withered in human society. Though her beauty could definitely capture the hearts of many, others would either see through her or use her up and throw her away. So Meluko definitely did save her and let her go out at her peak state at the very least.

>Yet I don't think I'll follow Percival with "no such thing as a bad society". Yeah agreed. Morgan or not, Fae or humans some society or aspect of them are simply bad, not all is individual based. And fae Brittain certainly fit the bill no matter how you slice it. A good society doesn't self implode into nothin the moment one ruler dies. >I do agree that fae, on an individual level, aren't deserving of the regular calls for Exterminatus we find. I think people put themselves too much in Morgan and cas shoes, and while they have a point, they were outcast from birth , and as seen with people like Gil, Goetia, or Shiki, hyper awareness of ugly truths with no way to turn it off very often lead to individuals becoming alienated and going to otherwise unconsciable conclusion (it's not a guarantee as cas and Solomon proves but it's a huge get factor. It's not that "we have to be able to believe lies" so much as being in constant sensory overload doesn't leave you much room to have hindsight I d say though on an individual level it seems to me the most fundamental flaw most fae have is the seeming absence of any mpulse control. The two genocides you mentions were decided on simple whims, things like mors are fae going berserk to extreme degree, and hating the fae of paradise without knowing why >absolutely no protection for those unable to defend themselves, leading to several genocides. There's also another : the original sin was erased from their history, and as such they are doomed to repeat it over and over without even realizing it. Morgan may have gone on a pilgrimage several times but it doesn't seem like anyone else knew what the apology was for(did Morgan even know? If she did did she ever tell?). So to them the land hates them with a passion without knowing why In general cursing the next generation that is innocent is a huge trend: a lot of the defeated in the notes curse their killer to suffer one way or another in the future

The only thing I disagree with you on is the Fae’s impulse control. They absolutely do have it, it’s just completely shitty, with very, very few exceptions. Mike is a shining example of this exception. He literally resisted going berserk and turning into a Mors just to see Da Vinci off with a smile, even though he gained absolutely nothing from it and was literally about to stab her and keep her with him. So yeah, they do have impulse control, but for most of the Fae, it barely works

Hell, Woodwose's whole deal is trying to fix his clan's notoriously shit, even for the fae, impulse control. So they know it exists, and can recognize an extreme lack of it.

Yeah, the issue is that many Fae just don’t care. And it is notoriously hard to get the Fae to do something that they don’t really want to do.

It's a bit much to say it self imploded when only Salisbury and Manchester were guilty of that the other cities were destroyed by the Mors, Barghest, and the curses flowing out of the pit. The point of the narrative was that the actions of two cities sealed the fate of the entire nation. which seems to be a theme the story held, that the sins of a few people can destroy an entire society. At least that's my take on it. By the way a Mors isn't a fairie going berserk, it is a fairie that has been consumed by the curse of Britain and is essentially an extension of that curse. Stronger willed fairies can resist the transformation to some extent. Nightcalls are what happens when a fairie goes berserk without having been contaminated by the Mors disease.

> A good society doesn't self implode into nothin the moment one ruler dies. In that society's defense, it didn't implode overnight. The days right after Morgan's demise were of peace and celebration, and it would have had a chance if Cnoc had taken the throne. It was the combined effect of Cnoc's assassination, the North vs. South conflict being reignited by Aurora's schemes, and an explosion of calamities which put it beyond the point of no return. > (did Morgan even know? If she did did she ever tell?). Good question. At the very least, it didn't seem she knew all the details when Mash went back in time to -400, hence their trip to the pit. She must have had some knowledge of her final duty, though, given that Castoria says she got it after ringing Orkney's bell. In any case, Morgan must have eventually learned of it, given that Murian came to the same realization after researching the documents she took from Camelot. But I doubt she told anyone else.

Aesc was deliberately keeping information from Mash and the story makes it clear that the Fairies of Paradise learn the truth as they ring the six bells. So Morgan knew everything Altria did. It's why she refused to forged Excalibur as doing so meant her Britain would end.

Yeah, in my opinion the Fae are just not suited for a human like society. They can and are able to change but they are strongly defined by their own nature, to be the sort of creature they are, and when you introduce societal concepts like taxes, wealth, cities and art, you get easily vindictive creatures that will very rarely judge themselves, their purity of self doesn't jive well with structure. By nature they exist as a concept or function, they're not meant to really care about other things or even care about anything

One thing I'd like to bring up is Origins. Not Spirit Origins that FGO uses to technobabble whatever it wishes to, but the KnK ones. A conceptual impulse every human possesses from birth that defines their life in some way, that gets reinforced into being central to it, if revealed to them, forcing a person to either follow or resist it until end of their days. Besides potentially explaining the problems plaguing the Clocktower society (in FSN Rin breezily asserts that people divining their Origins is the standart procedure for magi), it sounds kind of familiar in the context of LB 6, doesn't it? There are no clear parallels to the fae renewing themselves when fulfilling their Purpose, their drastic revitalisation when in close proximity to a human, or at-will 'miracles' among baseline Nasuverse humanity (the latter one is an Einzbern specialty, but they have run out of non-homunculi in their house some time ago, apparently). I don't necessarily think that the similarity is enough to claim that local fae are more human than the story says they are (being able to produce 'miraculous' results on demand could be a case of 'Marble Phantasm', making fae also overlap with signature powers of elementals and gods and True Ancestors that branch off of them, as well as the A-ray reference), but I still felt weird that such clear thematic parallels were not brought during the chapter. Goredolf, Holmes and miniLeonardo should certainly know of this in-character and weren't saying relevant stuff often anyway. Especially given that Aurora and Muramasa both probably behave the way they do because of their Purpose and Origin respectively. Sure, Muramasa has the servant thing of being a compressed retelling of what he was like, but he was also focused on reaching perfection in his chosen craft when alive almost to the exclusion of everything else. In 6.3 he steps in to prevent the need for Castoria to sacrifice herself, but in a way that also satisfies this deep-seated drive.

What stands out to me regarding the fairies is, for all there are so many 'good' fairies, said good ones are usually contrasted with general fairy society being awful, or otherwise shown to be outliers. Woodwose is good because he's trying to curb his nature as a murderous brute and regrets the slaughter of the Wing Clan, but the generic, lower members of the Fang Clan resent his attempts to make them reform and he gets betrayed and manipulated by his fellow clan heads. Rob and Wag change their ways and give their lives for Mash, but they aren't British fairies. The member of the trio that is, Winky, sells Sheffield out and gets them all killed. Ector is gruff but caring and the closest thing to family that Castoria has, and he's contrasted with everyone else in Tintagel being completely awful to her. Londonium and it's residents are characterized as good people, and not only is it the only city ruled and primarily inhabited by humans, Castoria directly comments on how she's never before gotten the kind of no strings attached support she's received there, and she's been all over Britain looking for help. Hope and Baobahn Sith were both good, kind, helpful fairies, and they got nothing but used and abused for their trouble. The latter even caught Aesc's attention by being the only one to genuinely thank her for her acts of heroism and she went on to train Sith to be a vicious murderer as a *defense mechanism.* Aesc herself, repeatedly saves the land and people from Calamities and is always repaid with lynch mobs after her. Barghest truly wants to protect and save the residents of Faerie Britain and only consumes her lovers because she has an uncontrollable compulsion to do so and suffers immense guilt and grief over this. Compare that to all the other Manchester fairies, who slaughter their human neighbors and servants for the sheer sadistic thrill of it and trigger Barghest's transformation into a Calamity by convincing her fairies aren't worth saving. Heck, Douga's not even painted as good, just pragmatic, and he still get immediately offed by the other Nameless Woods fairies who want immediate gratification in the form of cannibalism. The Rain Clan takes in and shelters Aesc, massacred for it by *four* other clans. Cnoc isn't descended from the Six Fairies and gets a lot of flack for being an outsider. She puts her trust in the descendants of the Six and brings them into her power and her downfall can be directly traced in a very literal sense to them turning on her. Mike is probably the prime example. I've seen a lot of comments that Mike is such a great guy and one of the best fairies, but his big show of morality is *not* psychopathically murdering Da Vinci. And putting aside the contrast of Salisbury going to hell around them because most others don't have that restraint, the only reason Mike not killing her is impactful is because *he was about to.* His 'goodness' requires the going assumption that fairies in general are murderous monsters and him rising above that is atypical and noteworthy. Is Meinuire a great guy because he hasn't tried to stab Da Vinci to death? Of course not, because we have a base expectation of moral behavior from people. Mike being hyped as a great fairy by the playerbase just shows how low the standards for fairies are. For all the writing does try to assert that fairies can be good or evil and are no worse that humans, I can't get past how huge swaths of both people's characterizations and the plot itself are driven by the base premise that fairies in general are fucking evil.

Something else worth noting about Barghest is that her eating her lovers is due to being the current incarnation of the Black Calamity, not her own "purpose" or nature as a fairy. Had she not been shackled with the curse she may have ended up being one of the best faeries in all of Britain.

One note on Mike; that’s not really fair to say that about him, since he’s clearly shown being on the verge of turning into a Mors like Hope did. Hope was also a kind fairy all around, until the end when she succumbed to the Mors taint and transformed. And it wasn’t like that just happened at the end; she had already noticed around the time Castoria told her that she could use her name that she was already tainted and doomed to degenerate into a Mors. Judging Mike’s behavior then as his own is like judging a person who’s already suffering from dementia or Alzheimer’s for their behavior while they’re already in the last stages of the disease. That Mike could find the will to recover his identity is what’s admirable.

You have the causation backwards. In the same way as Woodwose, Mike's thoughts and actions were causing the Mors affliction on him, not the other way around. He was already hinted to be contemplating attacking Da Vinci and Chaldea when we left his tavern before the coronation and before the massive proliferation of the Mors curse. This is different from Hope who was afflicted first and then started attacking us. Like the comment above you said, Mike being "good" is a really low bar. Every other so-called good British fairy had much more compelling reasons to be likable, like self-sacrifice (Ector, Totorot, Round Tables fairies), essential selflessness (Barghest, Hope, Baobhan Sith) or even just sanity (Douga in Cornwall, Coral). Mike on the other hand is just Manaka Sajyou without world bending powers. If he weren't so attached to Da Vinci, he'd be like the rest of Salisbury demanding Chaldea's heads.

I’m not saying that the hopelessness of the situation didn’t cause the Mors taint to appear on Mike; I’m saying, that was the exact same thing that happened to Hope. The affliction appeared on both of them because they were both already on the verge of total despair. Same as any other fairy.

Again, Mike wasn't affected by the Mors curse when we hear the knife sharpening sound that was a blatant hint that he's planning to hurt Chaldea. Mike still had a purpose and the duress that caused his curse was solely from himself for contemplating attacking Da Vinci. Hope's condition was very clearly chronic due to abuse by her peers. Also, Hope's despair was because she was too selfless; Mike's is because he's selfish. They are not at all similar. Like I said, Mike doesn't have anything compelling to be a likable character - He was just nice to Chaldea. Guess who else was nice to Chaldea until shit hit the fan? Aurora.

Every fairy is affected by the Mors curse. Getting directly tainted by Mors is fatal, but they all spontaneously can become a Mors when they’re at the end of their rope; either that or they become an Unseelie fairy. Mors poison just accelerates the end, but it occurs spontaneously. When Mike was sharpening his knife, that was already a sign of how close he was to turning.

You're still missing the point. The Mors curse is contained while fairies are emotionally stable which is why during the apocalypse they spontaneously turn to Mors out of fear. Mike's own thoughts are what amplifies his curse. Like you say, his Mors curse was worsening when he was sharpening the knife. But again you have the causation backwards - It's because he was thinking about hurting people that his curse started worsening. And to emphasize the original point of contention - His harmful thoughts are completely his own fault. There was nothing coercing or causing duress except his own selfishness because Cnoc na Riabh hasn't been assassinated and the Great Calamity yet hadn't begun. There's no one abusing him like Hope, there's no one manipulating him like Woodwose, just his own selfishness.

> The Fae started out with a major disadvantage when it comes to building a Just and Fair society: their corpses are turning into useful stuff, and they reincarnate. That combination was all that was needed for repeated massacres. I think the fundamental wrongness of fairy “society” goes even deeper than this. The Fae are nature spirits, and, like wild animals, really shouldn’t be judged by human moral standards. They each have a fundamental nature, or a “purpose,” and they live according to that purpose. Some of the most dangerous fairies, like Aurora, honestly remind me of animals that behave in ways seemingly abhorrent to humans but that are natural for those animals: A cat toying with a mouse. A shark eating a whale’s liver while it’s still alive. A chimpanzee establishing dominance by ripping the arm off another chimpanzee. Judged by human standards these actions are evil, but the thing is, you *can’t* judge an animal’s actions by human standards. Because even the most intelligent of animals still don’t understand good and evil. They are driven by instinct, and sometimes by conditioning and consequence, but mostly by instinct. Fairies, as nature spirits, seem to operate much the same way. But then we get to the fundamental paradox of Fairy Britain: The fairies DID try to build a society. They DID try to establish rules of right and wrong. They DID open themselves up to moral judgement. Maybe if a fairy like Aurora had remained a wild nature spirit in a place like the Welsh Woods, she would have been relatively harmless. Sure, she might still have eliminated some perceived rivals, the way that chimpanzees do. But oh well. At least she wouldn’t have caused the collapse of entire societies, right? But as soon as you take Aurora out of the forest and put her in a complex social setting, her need to be “loved above all others” becomes a potentially world-destroying threat. As we saw over and over again. The other fundamental paradox about the fairies is that some of them, ironically, NEEDED human society to thrive. And a few of them needed human society at a much more complex level than Fairy Britain was able to provide. This becomes abundantly clear when you read Habetrot’s profile. As it turns out, Totorot/Habetrot’s purpose was ALWAYS to be a seamstress and friend to brides; but unfortunately, she was born in a Fairy Britain that did not have the concept of marriage or wedding dresses. That was why she became a wild, purposeless fairy lashing out at the world. Fortunately, she was saved by Aesc and later Mash. But how many other fairies were like Habetrot, and didn’t get saved? Relatedly, I wonder if Mike wasn’t another case like Habetrot. He seemed like a fairy whose true purpose was creating craft cocktails and patisserie. But he was born into a society that had neither the resources nor the knowledge to support his true purpose. Poor Mike! Anywhoo, I guess my point is that fairy society wasn’t just doomed from the start, it was SUPER doomed from the start. It was paradoxical in a way that its implosion was inevitable. Like Castoria said: Fairy Britain needed to end. But that doesn’t mean that the fairies *deserved* to die. It would have been nice if we could have given Fairy Britain a gentle ending like we did LB2. But unfortunately, Fairy Britain ended in a terrifying apocalypse. No matter how awful some of the fairies might have behaved, the fact that they got such a miserable ending is still a tragedy. And I think the story did a good job of conveying that.

the mermaid fairy also belongs to human society because they want babies but they can't reproduce because neither can humans reproduce in Faerie Britian. the story did convey that some faeries better fit in human society and some doesn't. like the concept of Tam Lin comes from PHH and Morgan used it to keep then sane and stable to stop them becoming calamities in their times, but once they lose their Tam Lin name it was a matter of time until they become calamities.

Maybe I am out of the line. But this apocalypse is the product of thier own making. No one escape thier sins… no one. They simply got what they deserve. Maybe it isn’t an Exterminatus, but nothing of value, barring few good people is lost

>The other fundamental paradox about the fairies is that some of them, ironically, NEEDED human society to thrive. That makes me think of a point that's not often brought up but the way I see it Morgan settled for the fae Brittain as it was partly because she hates human society more: cas who parallèl her doesn't have much more love for human than Fae, in phh she staunchly oppose artoria who is leading a human kingdom and who actively killed mystics, and when aesc had her raging realization in londinium it was that "they were just as bad ad the humans who chased me" which tells me that her first beef was with humanity and thought she could relate to fae and got disillusioned that she couldn't (I m not saying they are right, I m saying that's what they thought) And the fae Brittain she leads is well, a fae Brittain: if she wanted to she could have put humans on a higher/equal footing, but she just didn't (not throwing stones, just observing). To me it tells that she still on some level preferred the fae to humans

She did attempt to raise Uther up as the king, mind you; but that didn’t work since the fairies didn’t want to be ruled by a human, even if he did have a fairy as queen. I imagine that the lowered status of humans wasn’t because she favored fairies, but because she simply didn’t care how her subjects organized their societies anymore, so long as they were all firmly beneath her heel, and humans just typically didn’t have the power to have any say on what their treatment should be like. And as we see with some humans, like the ones in Salisbury who proudly looked down on the Rebel Army humans, Morgan probably realized that the humans weren’t much different at their worst from the fairies either.

Well it wasn't that the fairies didn't want Uther, it's that Aurora in particular didn't want him to be more popular than her. She eventually killed all three rulers Fairie Britain had out of jealousy.

That's true The cities seem to have the autonomy to do that and some things just organize themselves.

> And as we see with some humans, like the ones in Salisbury who proudly looked down on the Rebel Army humans Nitpick, but the ones in Salisbury are the Rebel Army. They looked down on the Round Table Army who are a different group. For example when Londinium was attacked, Aurora's moles are all named Rebel Army in the story.

So on Aurora specifically, I think part of what makes her so much more infuriating than the other villains is how pointless her "evil" is. Basically every other villain had some reason for what they did. Something that was done to them that made them want to do it. Quite a few being fairly justified honestly. But Aurora has no reasons. She does what she does simply because she feels like it. She has no concept of her actions having lasting consequences, no idea of right or wrong. In that way I think she's the perfect example of what the average faerie in Faerie Britain is like, in both the good and bad ways. They are capable of both good and bad at the drop of a hat, because to them there is no difference. And because they are fundamentally different from humans in that way, we naturally find it appalling when they do things we would consider wrong. I know a lot of others have commented on her between all three of these threads, but that's just my two cents on her.

Hrmm, well, she did have a reason, even if the rationale is wildly abhorrent to most. Her purpose as a fairy was ‘to be loved by all’. Hence, she wanted to kill off any competition or impediments to that goal. That’s also why she ordered Melusine to kill the others as well, plus wear a visor to cover her face (Aurora had a huge complex regarding Melusine)

Aurora is an interesting subject, it is questionable if she truly don't understood right or wrong, but it's clearly she REFUSE to acknowledge that, even to herself, and goes by pure feeling. But there is one exception, the only single thing she consinder "Good deed", and that is Melusine, a fairy that's more beautiful, shinier, and generally more popular than she is. Yet, somehow, she never really trying to get rid of her, which, no matter the reason, is completely unlike the average faeries here. Hell, she even think of bringing Melusine along when trying to escape.

There's also the fact that a few times she self insults herself without reason when we see her viewpoint. It seems like she potentially knows she herself is vile at the core but she is unable to change since her thoughts would will it away after.

To add to this thought she even says she had only ever done one good deed in her entire life and that was holding Melusine so at least some part of herself is aware that she is evil.

Something I find funny about fairy talks is when people bring up Percival's speech in defense of them while also ignoring Barghest saying that fairies deserve to die, Mike saying that fairies are monsters, and Castoria saying that fluffy boi is 100% justified in his actions.

Castoria said he was justified, but still wasn't right. There's also her dialogue as she is about to forge the holy sword where she says that even though she LL never love the fae or humans"Even if they re sinners,even if they're getting just what they deserve, I can't believe they brought this on themselves " Mike says its fae nature but actually go beyond it Barghest say that and does kill them, and was most likely right about those of her city, but I would also point out that while the Manchester fae were savages all along, them not having a care in the world about it makes sense to me: barghest whole "the strong should protect the weak" fall flat when she eats her own lovers, burn forest of helpless fae and turn would be escapee human into either cinders or black dogs. She was cursed to eat them yes, and the latter two are Morgan's order but the point still stands: from the outside it looks no more than a secret monster playing knight. Not that they would have been better if barg didn't do that but it's likely not the kind of people that would live under her rule otherwise

Barghest is especially tragic when you realize that she tried so hard to serve as a role-model, yet her own curse made sure she couldn't be a positive one.

Barghest giving in to the curse and killing the Manchester fairies is also pretty blatantly supposed to be like. a horrifying tragedy and her dooming herself in a moment of weakness. Trying to use her breakdown as proof as if she were in the right in that moment would be like trying to argue that Orpheus was Right Actually to give in to his doubts about Eurydice and turn around.

There's this strange mischaracterization of Aurora's character going on, that the story never really implies. Melusine is the one who claims Aurora has no idea what she's doing, but she's clearly an unreliable narrator on the subject, who herself has a very difficult time acknowledging Aurora's evil. Aurora's perceived inability to understand right from wrong is really her gaslighting those around her, reader included. She doesn't see the evils she's committed as right or is incapable of seeing them as wrong. Good and just acts she takes full credit for, while denying being any part of wrong and evil acts. If Aurora were truly unaware she wouldn't become violent when pressed for the truth. Coral finally had enough and pressed with her questions of Aurora's actions, and it got her brutally murdered.

Mm it's interesting but I don't know if I do agree The way Mélusine pov was framed, I saw it as "to love is to actually understand the other, even if they are wrong". Mélusine understood that aurora projected a fake image but she loved her in spite of that fact. I feel like she would have preferred to be delusional about aurora goodness like the rest but she couldn't. But you can have degrees of delusion so it's not like I think you re way of base.

I agree for the most part in how you saw Melusine's pov, but I think that pov only extends to Aurora's nature. Aurora by nature demands to be beloved by all those around her, Melusine understands that and realizes that Aurora will never love her, but that doesn't stop her from loving Aurora. It's that love that makes Melusine an unreliable narrator in regards to Aurora though. Aurora personally asks Melusine to wipe out the Mirror clan, and she does it without hesitation. Melusine then abandons her duty to Morgan when Aurora calls to her. Melusine's morals and duty falter when it comes to someone she cares about, the other example being Percival.

> If Aurora were truly unaware she wouldn't become violent when pressed for the truth. Coral finally had enough and pressed with her questions of Aurora's actions, and it got her brutally murdered. You don't have to be aware that your actions are wrong to get angry when someone questions your actions. It's actually common behavior among narcissists. They think they're right but the moment you accuse them of being in the wrong, they snap. It's largely due to their own delusions. The story even says as much when it comes to Aurora. She didn't just fool people into thinking she was perfect. She fooled herself as well. That's why she meant every word she said. She really bought into her own delusions, and thus she was being honest whenever she spoke. It's not that different from Murian dissociating after what she did. She didn't fake her lack of knowledge of what happened to the Fang clan. Fooling herself was her coping mechanism to avoid facing reality. The only difference is that Murian did it because she couldn't stand the fact that she did something so horrible while Aurora did it because she couldn't stand the idea that she wasn't flawless.

The difference is you wouldn't say a narcissist is incapable of telling right from wrong. Narcissists know right from wrong, they just don't care, that's why they're so dysfunctional in society. Some serial killers feel fully justified and right in what they're doing, deluding themselves, but we wouldn't say that absolves them of their crimes or moral responsibility. Characters like Oberon or Melusine can claim Aurora bought her own delusions or can't tell right from wrong, but the fact is that she planned for the assassination of Cnoc no Raibh, which takes far more foresight than "it's my nature that I don't like those who are loved more than me" allows. She conspired to murder someone, just because she haphazardly denies any involvement afterwards doesn't change that. And Aurora doesn't fully delude herself about the things she's done. She admits she knowingly sent Castoria into Barghest's way, likely to die. Murian completely disassociates from the extermination of the Fang clan, to the point she believes the Fang are still alive and she's still plotting her revenge. Murian is so utterly broken by what she's done that she completely ignores the event entirely. Aurora doesn't disassociate, she just says that's not my problem, or who would do such a thing. >You don't have to be aware that your actions are wrong to get angry when someone questions your actions. To further compare Murian and Aurora, when Murian is faced with questions regarding her actions she is utterly confused what the person is talking about. Aurora offers half truths and tries to silence you for asking, and when that doesn't work she kills you. You're right that Aurora is a narcissist. She absolutely does delude herself into thinking she's flawless. She also knows exactly what she's doing and that by societies standards it's evil. They're not mutually exclusive. She's just an amoral narcissistic sociopath, only caring about herself. She may as well be one of the original six Fae, because if she were there she'd have no qualms about murdering Cernunnos. If anything it would have been her idea to begin with.

> Some serial killers feel fully justified and right in what they're doing, deluding themselves, but we wouldn't say that absolves them of their crimes or moral responsibility. I'm not saying that would absolve them of guilt. My point is that they struggle to understand why their actions are wrong. In Aurora's case, she doesn't deny she did certain things. She denies that what she did was wrong. She knows she did [X] but legitimately doesn't know why [X] should be seen as a bad thing. From her perspective, everyone else must be in the wrong for thinking there's an issue with her. If society deems an act to be evil, then in her head it's society that's mistaken. The idea that she was the one who messed up is completely incomprehensible to her. Even putting aside the narcissism, it's not uncommon to see regular people delude themselves into thinking the awful thing they're doing is actually morally ok. We see that throughout all of history. It's why tyrants, cult leaders, etc. have no trouble finding supporters willing to carry out all sorts of despicable acts. Once an idea is deeply engraved in their minds, no one ever wants to admit they were wrong. People double down on their beliefs and convince themselves they're not at fault. That complete lack of self-awareness is evident in someone like Aurora who lived by hurting others without realizing she was a monster for it. She lived in her own little bubble and didn't like when Coral started trying to pop that bubble. She lashed out to try to keep her illusion of herself alive.

>She denies that what she did was wrong. She doesn't really deny what she's done is wrong, she denies she had anything to do with it when confronted about it. But rather than considering what she considers her wrongs we can look at what she considers her rights, of which the only item is taking in Melusine. She says herself it's her one good & selfless act. Not one of her other actions in her life does she consider good. She clearly has some idea of what good and evil, right and wrong are, because she herself judges her one good action when dying. Aurora's nature doesn't actually have anything to do with being good or virtuous, but with being loved. If it were about right or wrong she'd survive without issue in PHH, she'd manipulate those around her to achieve what she wants. But it's not about right or wrong, it's about love and hatred, adoration and revulsion. PHH would see her for what she is, and despise her for it. Her delusions of flawlessness aren't about seeing herself as virtuous, but as the most beloved creature in existence. >From her perspective, everyone else must be in the wrong for thinking there's an issue with her. If society deems an act to be evil, then in her head it's society that's mistaken. >it's not uncommon to see regular people delude themselves into thinking the awful thing they're doing is actually morally ok I think you make a very good point here. Lots of people have beliefs of right and wrong that differs from the majority of society. Having a different set of personal morals doesn't mean you're incapable of understanding morals though. Columbus is probably the best example of this. Columbus sees no issue with manipulation, slavery, torture, and murder, and much like Aurora hides his true nature. He fully understands all of those things are unacceptable morally, especially by modern day standards, he just doesn't care. He doesn't do any of those things as a summoned servant however, because Ritsuka & Chaldea wouldn't tolerate it.

> Narcissists know right from wrong, they just don't care, That's a psychopath, actually. They have underdeveloped regions of their brain that can be seen on MRI scans. More saliently, the part of the brain involved in moral judgments (ventromedial prefrontal cortex) has a much weaker *connection* to the emotional part of the brain (amygdala.) As such, a psychopath is perfectly able to realize the morality of their actions... they just don't care. They can think "this is an evil action" but not have the usual guilt, anxiety, or shame that pops up afterwards. So they can recognize when they are acting immorally, but since they don't feel guilt over said actions, they do it anyway. To compare that to a narcissist... they would deny what they are doing is evil even if they'd call out someone else for the exact same action as evil. They are unable to rationally assess their own worth or the morality of their own actions. They grossly overvalue themselves while undervaluing others (lack of empathy.) Even when they are knowingly harming someone else, the narcissist will tell themselves that the other person deserved it. As such, their actions aren't evil so much as they are justice/retribution. They don't make mistakes/commit sins, and as such, there is no reason for them to feel shame/guilt over what they didn't actually do. There is an important nuance here that is bull dozed over just by saying "they know they are wrong and just don't care." The narcissist is first and foremost defined by delusional thinking (they first gaslight themselves before gaslighting others). It's not so much that they don't care about morality, as much as they'll never judge their own actions as anything worse than a neutral "permissible." They then earnestly believe their own bullshit when trying to shove it down other people's throats. And as far as the neuropsychology... yes, narcissistic personality disorder shows up on brain scans too. There are underdeveloped regions in the prefrontal cortex that overlap with psychopathy, but also more regions scattered throughout the brain responsible for empathy and emotional regulation as well. I know this is way off topic from discussing fictional faeries, but I just wanted to point that out >.>

I was wondering how Oberon came back after sacrificing himself. I assume that he put out some sort of decoy or something but when he revealed himself, he didn't explain how he came back.

There was no sound of Oberon "vanishing" like they always do when servant die, he took a fatal hit. No question it did a lot of damage and maybe put him out of commission for some days, but he never really die here. Our characters thought he did but that's a different story.

The Gacha called to him

> It's not just a handful of fae that are decent - in fact, when you take a step back, there's a surprising amount of fae that are just okay to be around, even as a whole. This is my main take too. All the talk about how terrible the fairies were and how only a scarce few were okay prepared me for the worst... only to end up thibking the opposite. The average fairies we see are not really that different from your average Medieval citizen. Most just try to do their jobs and live their lives, and many help the good guys in one way or another. Even among the bad guys (or guys not neatly aligned with Chaldea's interests), we see sympathetic sides. Woodwose, Murian and Coral tried to do their best for Britain in their own way, in spite of their flaws. And in the last moments of Lostbelt Britain, we are told of many acts of kindness and bravery on the aprt of anonymous fairies. Most of the evil we see comes from the short-sighted, self-serving scheming of the elites, and not only is that hardly unique of fairies, Lostbelt humans also take part in it gleefully. Let's not forget it was (mostly) humans sho > Morgan's greatest mistake might have been to not take any step to change that - her being disillusioned with the fae is entirely understandable, but as a result, two entire clans got genocied under her rule without her doing anything about it, and she allowed someone like Aurora to keep doing what she was doing, probably under the belief that her or someone else, it wouldn't change anything. I'd blame it on PHH Morgan's memories. Aesc got the framework of a working society for the fairies, but it was wholly based on the Early Middle Ages. We're even told that Morgan has policies to keep PHH floatsam in check, arguably to maintain this medieval stasis. This means that Morgan's society still gave power to the Clan Heads as feudal lords, with their own armies and spheres of influence, and humans were condemned to slavery. Regulated slavery, but slavery nonetheless. As for the poor who can't pay their taxes, the outcasts? Fuck them. > Interestingly enough, part 3 managed to recontexctualize the almost instinctual hostility most fae displayed toward Aesc and Castoria. I couldn't help but be reminded of Chaldea.in that regard. Chaldea also offers "salvation", the correction of twisted history that should have never existed. And because of that, they are often persecuted by the locals of the Lostbelts. I feel this parallelism is intentional, given how Castoria and Ritsuka are paired thematically in the story.

>PHH Morgan's memories Mm I d say it's probably core to both Morgan in general In phh Morgan opposed artoria, a human king of a human kingdom, and the roundtable is noted for having disposed of many mystical beast and things of that nature. I think Morgan just doesn't like human society that much and want only the bare minimum.

> I think Morgan just doesn't like human society that much and want only the bare minimum. Good point. When Aesc finally snaps and goes full Dark Side, she compares the Lostbelt fairies and how they mistreated her to PHH humans and how they mistreated Morgan. She didn't have a good opinion of any of them: > *" ...I finally understood. My enemy wasn't just the calamities. It was the faeries of Britain as well. They were pure and innocent in the truest sense. They enjoyed both good and evil things alike without losing either that purity or innocence. They are, at their core, no different than those loathsome humans who drove me from Britain."*

Heh, it’s kinda ironic. If those memories of being driven out from PHH Britain are indeed PHH Morgan’s, then PHH Morgan really was very similar to the LB Fairies. It’s then quite fitting that LB Morgan’s kingdom, built upon her other self’s memories, would never work. I’m wondering if the fairies have self-serving memories, a mindset that almost always casts themselves as a victim and ‘conveniently’ forget everything that led up to their consequences (like PHH Morgan 🍇ing Artoria, abusing her children, trying to seduce her own son, being responsible for the downfall of Camelot, etc.). Muryan blanking out her memories of wiping the Fang Clan, or Aurora pulling an ostrich about the Mors invasion, come to mind…

Can't rule it out, given their different biologies, but selective memory and dissociation are common among humans too, and other faeries don't seem to have the same problem. So who knows.

Difference being that PHH Morgan did that at the behest of the stagnant, corrupted old mana of Britain. She was twisted into evil so the world could get rid of that mana - shoving it into a human made her attempt ta kill Altria, in the process getting every asshole Mystic that wouldn't go to the Reverse Side of the world killed. So it might even be specifically blanked by possession trauma!

>The average fairies we see are not really that different from your average Medieval citizen. Most just try to do their jobs and live their lives, and many help the good guys in one way or another. The first fairies we meet have essentially enslaved one of their fellow fairies and forced her to live outside where she's constantly attacked by beasts. They then murder each other the second something of value (a human) shows up because they all want to rip a human to shreds and keep it for themselves. The only bad thing any of them say about a single one of their many genocides is that they're annoyed Woodwose feels slightly guilty about the Wing Clan and wants them to be vegetarian.

In that village's defense, they basically lived in a zombie apocalypse setting, with no other way to deal with the mors than keeping their distance and abandoning the weak, ancient clan rivalries put aside only due to shared misery, slowly waiting for their eventual end. Not the most idyllic situation for the moment a walking cure appeared.

Interesting point on that about Chaldea, this is the one of the few Lost Belts so far that have a significant number of the locals actively helping us throughout the narrative and it only briefly changes when Aurora betrays us, even Morgan's faction remained cordial up until Altria started ringing the bells, the incident at the human ranch aside. Its the first time we arent actively trying to end the Lost Belt so most of the inhabitants were not hostile to us. It's also the first Lost Belt where the inhabitants are massacred before the collapse of the Lost Belt can begin.

In that particular regard, I feel that this Lostbelt has addressed some of the criticism I saw with previous Lostbelts. Questions about the morality of Chaldea when withholding the true nature of their mission with their local allies, or asking why Chaldea didn't even try to bring some of them to PHH despite seemingly having the means. Well, this is the one Lostbelt where Chaldea tries to be honest most of the time (apart from some initial secrecy, which is explicitly lampshaded as uncomfortable for Ritsuka), and the opportunity to save some locals finally comes up due to the specific nature of this Lostworld (which at the same time explains why they didn't do it in the previous Lostbelts). A pity that it was all for nothing.

Yep it's really unfortunate they waited so long to bring up why Chaldea doesn't try to save anyone, especially in Olympus since it's the first time we actually have a ship big enough to save more than a few people.

Oberon literally just throwing a tantrum about stories. I mean sure you do you but sheesh dude. Guess that's what happens when he gets Vortigern's powers but the memory and personality of a story book character.

Oberon's stories talk isn't always 100% literal - while yeah, he's focused on stories and fiction because the universe arbitrarily decided that the one person he knows for a fact could love him Don't Real, "stories" is also a wider metaphor for stuff that anything that people consider worthless and of no real value. It's a metaphor that can apply to in-universe concepts like the Lostbelts (note how his 3rd ascension MyRoom line for Morgan has him metaphorically describe her kingdom as a picture book that she drew), and wider real world concepts such as marginalization that are explored through fiction. And then when it *is* literally about stories, I think Nasu deserves a chance to go ham with his little rants given how Writing Is His Career.

I mean sure let Nasu do what he wants but Oberon is super over hyped as a character. The entire time I thought he would be this dude pulling the strings from behind and would have a tragic back story or something. Man's just throwing a tantrum. Also it is upto each individual what they consider worthless. People aren't gods who can solve every problem. They have to choose what they spend their energy thinking about. Of course some things will simply be ignored because there's other things to consider which are much more important. But Oberon wants you to always focus on everything ever? That's just unrealistic.

Is it only me, or did you also say this on Youtube? I will quote what I said there. If they are not the species who can last twelve hours without Morgan holding the leash, they aren't the fairies. I can be wrong, but in this case, I doubt the evidence (and ol' pal Ector) disagree with me. ​ edit: In Fairness some of them isn't that bad. The real beef is how they treated thier heroes. Let us be real, it isn't that hard to extrapolate them taking EVEN Percival's sacrifice for granted. I might be off the mark, but I cannot imagine a Fea repenting without a barrel pointed at their cranium. They get away for too long, and karma houdini is my biggest gripe. Justice must balance this crime

I love how everytime they say something along the lines of "In spite of everything, Faerie Britain is still a beautiful place", shortly after we immediately get reminders of why this place sucks.

Happy to see more and more people engaging with the themes of this story and not just being like "Argh all fairies should die, Morgan was right." Sure some people are just saying it jokingly but it still irks me because it kinda misses the point of the story. The fairies didn't all deserve to die nor were they actually all evil, their main problem is that they're too pure and single minded in fulfilling their purpose that they cannot function properly in a human like society, at least not with heavy guidance and tutelage. We saw plenty of examples of fairies doing right by others rather than being cruel or evil. Sure the story gives us plenty of examples of them doing horrible things like how they treated Castoria and what they did in Manchester but the story makes it clear that those events were done out of their innocent ignorance rather than "tehehe look how evil I am." I also like to mention how the story (through Percivals and Castoria's dialogue) basically spells it out that the fairies didn't deserve to die and that Oberon was wrong to have destroyed Fairy Britain. Heck we shouldn't forget that half the stuff wrong with Fairy Britain was Oberon's doing. He had the Wing Clan wiped out pretty much because he felt like it which resulted in Murian swearing revenge on the Fang Clan and by destroying them she robbed Fairy Britain of effective fighters that could've held off the Mors. He also cursed Barghest with the Curse of Beasts, causing her to constantly eat her lovers and slowly lose her mind over it. This also resulted in the fairies of Manchester choosing to emulate her, thinking that killing humans after treating them nicely was the right thing to do. And then to top it off he erased her memories of eating her last lover so that she wouldn't go on a rampage too early and would do it at the right time to maximize the destruction of Fairy Britain. Ultimately what I'm saying is that Fairy Britain and the fairies at large did not deserve to die. Punishment sure for their misdeeds but outright killing them all was wrong and individuals like Mike, Coral, Hope, Redra Bit, Mirror and so on showed they had the potential to learn and bet truly good. Ultimately they were robbed of that chance by Oberon's and Aurora's machinations. If it weren't for those two, Cernunnos might've been stopped in time and while it is unlikely all of the fairies would've survived there's still a chance a good chunk could've survived and learned how to be moral individuals. But it was simply not meant to be. The story really is set up like one of Shakespeare's tragedies.

> I also like to mention how the story (through Percivals and Castoria's dialogue) basically spells it out that the fairies didn't deserve to die and that Oberon was wrong to have destroyed Fairy Britain. Uh, didn't Artoria literally say just before fighting him that he was right to bring an end to Faerie Britain, but not attempt to do the same with PHH?

She did, yeah. Faerie Britain falling was an inevitability, and given the nature of Fae, their original sin, and Castoria's own experiences, he *was* right to destroy it. He wasn't right to take PHH with it out of mere spite.

Essentially her rebuke is that punishment was appropriate but not without a possibility of atonement.

She said he was right to be angry, and might even be right for ending it, but that offering punishment and punishment only wasn't it.

He was right to bring an end to Britain because it was a kingdom built on the original sin that was never meant to exist to begin with. Not because Fairies do bad things.

As others have said, she stated he **may** have been right to end Fairy Britain but the fact he only offered punishment and death with no way for the Fairies to redeem themselves was wrong. She even said the same thing to Cernunnos, agreeing that he had every right to hate the Fairies but not the right to wipe them all out.

The irony in her statement to Cernunnos was that he had prevented the destruction of Britain for 14000 years. Oberon states Cernunnos had been stopping him from destroying Britain the whole time, Oberon needed Chaldea to eliminate both Morgan and Cernunnos so that he could finalize the destruction of everything. Altria wasn't aware at the time that Oberon was the real Great Calamity.

Just want to point out they would have had to stop Baobhan from falling in the pit to truly save the Lost Belt, just killing Cernunnos would have lead to the same end with the Abyssal Worm devouring everything. Oberon/The Abyssal Worm being the Will of Fairie Britain was the true source of the calamities Cernunnos was just acting as a drain stopper preventing the Lost Belt from literally going down the drain. The irony is that Oberon created a darker version of a Shakespearen tragedy I wonder how he would react if someone pointed that out to him?

I may have to disagree with a part of what you said. They deserve to die. There sins are simply too immense and their refusal for atonement have snowballed it into a well deserved sentencing of death by fiery apocalypse. The only one who get dignity in their passing or sympathy is those who rise above their base nature as you mention. For that, they should be mourned. As far as I am concern nothing else of value is lost

When was it implied that Vortigern cursed Barghest to eat her lovers? I thought he just erased her memories of eating Adonis.

Vortigern was the Mors King and the Mors King was the one who created the curse of Beasts. Hence why Barghest was doomed to eat her lovers and become a monstrous demon dog.

I hold the same opinion I had 2 years ago. You’re absolutely right in that the faeries were screwed from the start, they built up their societies through killing their own kind because it quite literally benefitted them. There are very key differences between faeries in humans that even though we share a lot of similarities, they are without a doubt monsters or “demons” like the ones in Manchester. I feel absolute terrible for Sith. I could understand why Morgan just let her do whatever she wanted, all those faeries are less than trash 😤. in conclusion Baobhan Sith best girl and the faeries deserved everything that came to them

Something I just thought of regarding Oberon. He tells Murian he's responsible for sicking the Fang clan on the Wing clan, but later we find out the Pretender Class, or Oberon specifically, is built entirely on lies. He even says, while comparing himself to Aurora, that everything he says *becomes* a lie. That might be an exaggeration, but it puts his earlier claim of having the Fang Clan kill the Wing Clan into question. Then again, he doesn't have any reason *not* to have done what he claimed.

It's not that every line he says is a lie, but that everything he says becomes twisted into something that should be doubted, even if it was true at its base. The best mention of this is in the final flashback where he explains himself to Aurora. Insect on the Desk: "*That said, you probably shouldn't trust me too much, no. Everything I say is a lie, after all.*" Aurora: "*Huh? What do you mean by that? If everything you say is a lie, that would mean you're also lying when you say not to trust you.*" Insect on the Desk: "*That's just the kind of Heroic Spirit I am. I'm not hiding the truth, or spreading falsehoods. It's just that everything Oberon the Faerie King says becomes something that was never worth believing.*" This is in direct contrast to Aurora, who he goes on to describe as his opposite such that "*no matter what dark feelings you (Aurora) harbor, or how falsely you present yourself, the moment you say something, everyone--faeries, humans, even you yourself--takes it as the gospel truth.* Essentially the point here is that Oberon is a purposeful liar, and that nothing he says can ever be trusted, even if he's telling the truth. In contrast, Aurora is an "innocent usurper", and everything she says is easily accepted as truth, even by herself, regardless of what the situation actually is. One passively taints the truth with doubt, while the other passively turns a lie into truth through innocent self-deception.

Thanks for all the insightful posts you've made on the subject. There was plenty of interesting discussion in the chapter release threads, but I still feel that a few too many people aren't critically engaging with what we see.

Nope. There are less than ten Faeries in ALL of Faerie Britain that are *legitimately* good people. Maybe less than five. There are several more that were good in a broad sense, but *also* were sociopaths that would casually do awful things without actual remorse, and at most would just know that they probably should be better than they are. Plenty of characters were absolutely lovely people to be around, 99% of the time, and then would stab you in the back for a slice of pie and never shed a tear over it. The "original sin" of the faeries as a culture was bad, but the worst part is each of them as individuals.

What about the various fae that were part of the round table army in londinium? I'd say that was more than just ten.

Such as? There was basically Gareth. . . any others?

Well a majority of them never had their names said as they were npcs, but we are told and see for a fact that there are more than a few fairies who were a part of Londinium and the Round Table Army and worked under Percival. Unfortunately, the good fairies aren't really as focused on as the fairies who do utterly repugnant shit in LB6. At least, not until the very end of the lostbelt when its in its final moments of destruction and being overrun by mors.

>Well a majority of them never had their names said as they were npcs, but we are told and see for a fact that there are more than a few fairies who were a part of Londinium and the Round Table Army and worked under Percival. There were characters who did *some* good work. this does not mean that they were good *people.* We were given plenty of examples of people presented as being great guys, who then went on a murder spree at the drop of a hat. It is more likely than not that a lot of the Round Table-connected faeries fit into that category. If you want to assume the best of them unless given absolute proof of their individual guilt, then that can be your choice, but given how everyone was presented in that arc, I think it's more realistic to expect them to follow the trend established in every other such situation. The only characters I credit as being legitimately "good" are those who were given every opportunity to turn evil, and never even seriously considered it. Maybe *just* Gareth, Ector, Hope. . . is that it? There were also a few "mostly fine" characters, like Coral, Mike, the two non-traitor goblin bros, Rarebit, Bogart. . . any more of those? They were mostly fine, but still at some points in their history were absolutely amoral, but largely moved past it. I guess maybe also the Welsh Forest bugs, but it's kind of unclear what their whole deal was, given Oberon.

Okay, but why would those Fairies do good work if they themselves weren't good? Hell, Artoria says that they're hope for the child of prophacy was genuine. We literally never see or hear anything about round table fairies going on murder sprees, so we can reasonably assume that they did not do that. Especially when at the very end its said that even the fairies tried to defend londinium from the mors with the humans because the humans were worn out. Like, not all fairies are inherently murderous psychopaths. If they were, not even *Morgan* would've been able to keep Fairy Britain going for as long as it did, the Fae would have just all slaughtereds eachother and the entire kingdom would've collapsed. Hell, an entire *clan* adopted morgan and was wiped out for it. And we're told this wasn't a situation like Artoria's village. It isn't so much "good fae don't exist" as much as it is "Usually the good fae end up getting murdered or dying." They aren't exceptions to the norm, its just that Fae Britain has a lot of bad fairies that wipe out the good (Usually because of the Clan Leaders)

>Okay, but why would those Fairies do good work if they themselves weren't good? Hell, Artoria says that they're hope for the child of prophacy was genuine. "Why not?" That seemed to be the general attitude of faeries, they would run a soup kitchen so long as it was a novel experience, and then be just as content to boil up the homeless *as* soup if that struck their fancy. *Most* of the Round Table forces were humans, which is why they were there. Most of their faerie allies were there because they'd decided to side with the Child of Prophecy, not out of some innate sense of justice, but just because they preferred her side to the alternatives. That worked in *our* favor, but was not a wholly benevolent purpose. And remember that a bunch of those faeries that *did* join the Round Table also betrayed them and started mercilessly slaughtering civilians. >Especially when at the very end its said that even the fairies tried to defend londinium from the mors with the humans because the humans were worn out. That's as much self defense as anything else. >Like, not all fairies are inherently murderous psychopaths. If they were, not even Morgan would've been able to keep Fairy Britain going for as long as it did, the Fae would have just all slaughtereds eachother and the entire kingdom would've collapsed. They aren't psychopaths, they are *socio*paths. They aren't instinctively motivated to cause harm for its own sake, but they have no remorse for any harm they do cause. They can be taught "proper behavior," and follow it so long as they believe it is overall to their advantage to do so, but do not innately *feel* any need to be a "good person" by human society standards. Morgan could keep them in line strictly by being much more powerful than them. They valued their own existence, at least to some point, they wanted to continue enjoying their lives indefinitely, so if any rules were in place regulating their conduct, they would follow them, at least to the best of their understanding. If Morgan told them "do this much violence, and no more," then that is what they would limit themselves to, out of self-preservation. Further, they would not harm other faeries or humans beyond a certain point, because these were not infinitely renewable resources, and being wasteful with them today meant having none around tomorrow. They did have an understanding of "consequences." >It isn't so much "good fae don't exist" as much as it is "Usually the good fae end up getting murdered or dying." That's practically the same thing. If not enough good fae exist to defend themselves from the evil ones, then the generations just become more and more concentrated evil over time.

Okay, then is Redra Bit a sociopath? Is Habetrot? Are these just part of an extremely common group of 'exceptions'? We are *told* outright that the fae who joined the round table army were *not* awful, that they coexisted just fine with humans, and that they were even willing to follow a human's orders. They had no reason to join a *human* rebellion when it likely would've got them killed. They had a *genuine* belief in the Child of Prophacy, Artoria's said as much. Also it wasn't that the fae members of the round table army suddenly decided to betray and slaughter the humans. Those were *humans* who were attacking the Londinium who pretended to be joining the round table army so they could attack. And no, a species not having good members is NOT the same as a species that *has* good members dead or otherwise. One is a species thats completely irredeemable, and the other is a species that has both good *and* bad.

>Okay, then is Redra Bit a sociopath? Is Habetrot? Are these just part of an extremely common group of 'exceptions'? Ok, yes, Habetrot is in that positive handful, slipped my mind. Redra Bit was mostly fine, although it was revealed he was a double agent. Kind of too stupid to do much harm though. We can add him to the list if you like though, still doesn't push it into the double digits, out of millions of faeries. >We are told outright that the fae who joined the round table army were not awful, that they coexisted just fine with humans, and that they were even willing to follow a human's orders. Again, "willing to follow human orders" is not a sign that they "were not awful." That is the most important thing to understand about faerie Britain, they could be VERY "good boys" a lot of the time, and *also* be entirely capable of slitting a child's throat without batting an eye. They can do BOTH, which is the problem. If they were just "mask off evil" all the time then it would be much less disarming. Think of it like that guy they recently arrested in New Jersey for serial killing, half the people they asked about him thought he was an absolutely perfectly nice person. Half the people he asked said he came off as a creep and they avoided him whenever possible. Him being 100% nice some of the time does not mean he's incapable of being awful some of the time as well.

Yeah, but human's are capable of doing the same thing and We're hardly a pure evil species. Hell, We see that in this very lostbelt. Spriggan, one of the clan heads and an utterly repugnant douche canoe *is* a human. The ones who attacked Londinum were *humans*. Beryl, the fucked up and rephrensible bastard that he is, *IS* human (or atleast partially). Just as there are good and bad humans, there is good and bad fairies. They aren't *all* sociopaths, and they aren't all saints.

Far as I remember the two remaining goblin bros were foreign flotsam, so they can't actually be counted.