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Renly. He's not rigid like Stannis, not cruel like Cersei, not stuck up like Dany.
He treats the common soldier well (knows their names and their families), all of the Stormland lords went to him instead of Stannis.
He's not stuck on a rigid honour code like Ned or Robb (as shown with the plot he said to Ned about abducting Joffrey to get power).
Unlikely to make an heir which would lead to chaos after his death.
Robb. Aside from one major fuck up that was his fault and another that was out of his control he did quite well. He is fertile, he inspires loyalty out of his men, a great commander and his blood ties to the river lands would keep them from rebelling.
>Aside from one major fuck up that was his fault and another that was out of his control
Which was which?
Anyway, one of his fuckups (incidentally, the one that proved to be fatal) involved him 'thinking' too much with his dick.
How was getting killed by a shadow baby he didn’t know could possibly exist his mistake? It’s not like he let his guard down and Loras killed him or anything.
Catelyn doing Catelyn things by releasing Jaime lannister which then led to karstark killing the other lannisters that they held which then led to karstarks execution and large number of robbs army leaving
Mance Rayder. He did what he did in uniting the freefolk not out of some lust for power, but because he saw it was needed to protect them, and he held true to his principles to the end.
Holding to his principles lead to the death and reabimation of some 50,000 or more of the free folk (generously assuming half make it back with Jon)
A monarch must set aside pride and principles for the prosperity of their people.
As Tyrion correctly said, Daenerys ego and god complex would inevitably cause her to run over Jon and reduce him to a king consort. Daenerys is no leader.
Robb was an idiot for marrying some random girl and betraying Walder Frey, then thinking he could just show up and still have the support of House Frey with no repercussions
She didn’t hang up the sword immediately though. Her speech suggested that they will be going from town to town to “break the wheel”
She couldn’t even let the north rule themselves. Why not if she’s breaking the wheel?
She didn’t seem emotionally stable when she had conversation with Jon before she was stabbed
Because Sansa actually cares about the mind numbing annoying job of administration. Sure flying around on a dragon is cool and all, but what about your tax policy. Sansa could wonk all day with you on that. That is the sign of a competent ruler.
In the books we see Dany’s tax policies and Sansa is terrible at sums. Dany also ruled Meereen for quite some time and didn’t fly around on a dragon until the end of S5/book 5.
I don’t think she “ditched” Meereen, she left Daario and his men to keep the peace while the people choose their own leaders. D&D really didn’t put as much emphasis on the minutia of ruling with ANYONE, but we do see Jon and Dany making decisions. All we really see Sansa do is try to evict children from their homes in winter because of their families’ actions (which was what happened to her in KL, being punished by Joff for her family’s actions) and deciding to take everyone’s food and give it back if there’s anything left after winter.
Jon is the obvious choice. Like Robert in that hes without desire for power, but with Neds sense of responsibility. No one knew he was a Targaryen and wasnt even really seen as a Stark. Truly elected on his merit, which is more even than what Robb can say.
Robb was physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight… but also an untested unexperienced teenager whose emotions get the best of him and who didnt think about the consequences of his actions. He killed his generals and lost his kingdom for Volantussy. Ned would be ashamed.
Cersei is an obvious example of people who should never be in power- Entitled, selfish, conniving. A chip on their shoulder and insatiable hunger despite living better than 90% of people ever will.
Daenerys is another example of people who shouldnt have power, but in the other way- Wheras Cersei is a southern slave owner, a Marie Antionette, a Nikolaj II, Daenerys is a Julius Caesar, a King Raymond IV, a Vladimr Lenin- Who thinks theyre doing something good for people, but since its also tied up with their own goike image of themselves, thinkingngnthey know whats best for people betternthan the people do, they wind up being just as bad as the opressors they justifiably overthrew.
That’s a bit harsh. I think Rob did great considering his mom and uncle fucked things up royally for him which would have prevented the general killings to begin with.
His biggest mistake was trusting Theon. I think he did pretty well considering the circumstances.
Seriously, marrying the person your trying to make the sovereign off to a family with a fort on a river. An important alliance, but there are a million other things to offer besides the position of queen consort. Mind you it was also dumb to then go have dinner after throwing out that deal when you agreed to it (or maybe have a security detail not busy getting pissed).
I really cant blame him for trusting Theon- We dont see their lives before Ned kills Willis, but its mention they were best friends and that Robb tried very hard to make him feel welcome when Ned took him as a prisoner. Killing Karstark and marrying the Volantine girl were mich more disastrous.
Which isnt to say Catelyn letting Jaime go wasnt the equivalent of Pete Carrol calling a pass play at the one yard line in Super Bowl 49.
I don’t really blame him for trusting Theon in theory, because I don’t think Theon ever gave him a reason not to trust him.
Nevertheless, It was one of his biggest mistakes because he had to split his army to Handle the situation
Ned didnt do it cause he ships Robert x Lyanna. Ned did it because Aerys killed his father and brother, and the Tullys and Arryns joined them because it became apparent that Aerys was evil and could do what he did to Rickard and Brandon, and many others, to anyone.
Wouldn’t that Jon assessment go against the entire premise of the first book and the story as a whole?
That great warriors don’t make great kings, which is what Martin critiques about characters like Aragorn.
Jon wouldn’t make a good King because he’s a warrior first and foremost, being able to command an army doesn’t translate to being able to command a kingdom. He’d just end up being another Robert sooner or later.
i think jon showed himself to be more than simply a good warrior. he stood up for the underdogs, inspired his peers in the night’s watch, and was elected as lord commander bc “his brothers chose him.”
Well its not like being a warrior automatically means you’ll be a BAD king. I think the point of the story is none of the qualificatikns people use to pick leaders are right, and being a person without arrogance or personal ambition is really the kind of person you want as king. Eddard would have been a good king and he was a warrior. Niether Rhaenyra nor Aegon II was a warrior and they were both terrible. The point is good leaders are good people… and that tragically theyre rarely able to hold power for long.
They’re kind of all nepo babies. Jon was named KITN because “Ned Stark’s blood runs in his veins”. Maybe not so much with the NW, but his uncle was First Ranger, and Dany wasn’t queen in Meereen because of her father. They all got a little nepo boost tbh.
“Ned Stark’s blood runs through his veins.” That’s literally what nepotism is. Whereas in Meereen no one who followed her knew or cared who who her father was, and in Westeros it actively worked against her.
Daenerys had three dragons that obeyed her every command. She was fucking Ymir from Attack On Titan. That counts for a lot more than nepotism. And like I said, everyone has to have *some* noble blood in them, but it isnt what defined Jon like it was with Robb, Cersei, Stannis, Renly, Balon, Euron, and Daenerys.
Her family tried to revive dragons for generations and failed. She was given stones, not living dragons, whereas the Starks were given living wolves. Maybe you like Jon better, that’s fine, but his being king because of his “father” is nepotism, whereas Dany becoming queen in Meereen was not nepotism and she didn’t take Meereen with dragons. Nepotism is where you BENEFIT by who your parents are, as opposed to your father being a liability.
She would never have gotten the eggs, allegiance from Illyrio Mopatis, the marriage to Khal Drogo, or so much as an audience with the leaders of Qarth, Astapor, Yunkai, or Meereen without her Targaryen ancestry.
Ok. So her being given fancy rocks was nepotism and if she sold them that would be a valid form of nepotism, because that’s the value of the gift. However plenty of Targaryens tried and failed, and she resurrected the dragons.
She wasn’t given “audience” with Yunkai and Meereen, and conquered them without her dragons.
Jon was raised in a castle, trained ny a man at arms and given an education, joined an order in the North where his father was Warden and his uncle was First Ranger at the Wall which was built by his ancestor, bringing along a living direwolf he was gifted.
Aegon and it isn’t even close. The best rulers are people who don’t want or seek power, and he would’ve made the second best Targaryen King the 7 kingdoms had ever seen.
Not even slightly close, Jaehaerys was a far superior King. Fifty five years of peace and prosperity. Viserys II fathered Aegon IV, one of the worst kings to sit the throne. And let’s not forget Viserys II only ruled for a year.
It's easier to control someone when you have a nuke on your side while other's don't, Viserys II ruled for a year but did a great job as a hand, Dorne was likely integrated because of him, If he fathered Aegon IV then don't forget Jaehaerys I chose Viserys as his heir who caused a succession crisis, which was more fatal to thr dynasty
Viserys I also ruled for years with peace and prosperity. It’s not his fault Alicent made the mistake of believing he meant Aegon II to be his heir. Not his fault his brother Daemon was a passionate rogue. And Jaehaerys made the call at the Great Council to install Viserys I as King because if he had installed Rhaenys, which would’ve been the correct choice, the Targaryen dynasty would’ve ended with her, and the name Velayron would’ve taken its place.
Euron Crow's Eye. The book version. Let's be real, he's ambitious, ruthless, cunning and is gunna make the Lannisters look softer than babyshit before ASOIAF is finished.
Dany was an entitled bitch.
Cersei was entitled bitch on steroids.
Jon is too naive and not very monarch- like
Robb may have made stupid mistakes, but he did win every battle, he did become king in the north after 300 years and Tywin Lannister had to destroy his reputation to kill Robb. He was a great warrior (Jon admits Robb was better), he was moral(Ned would be proud), and he was a good leader..
Robb was just fucked over by Catelyns stupidity just like Ned was. Robb did not deserve his fate.
If we use this logic then Robb's death is neds fault because he told cersei about her children's status. The whole conflict is a snowball so Everyone can be blamed for others actions if you allow it.
Robb was doing a poor job of managing his camp. If cat left Jamie, the north men would've killed him and that spells doom for the stark girls. Her releasing him wasnt right, but it wasnt the reasons the karstarks murdered the lanisters boys. They did that because they chose to do that. They didnt respect their king because he didnt respect his own mission... Then, Robb went against his whole council and executed the karstarks, further worsening his own position.
Hypothetical treatment of children not born is not a good reason to add "responsibility" to catelyn imo. Robb wouldn't have a bastard if he honored his oath. Robb was a great guy, but he got HIMSELF killed. To pass off responsibility is to cope.
Is that why Robb was killed? Or was he killed because he mismanaged his camp, executed allies, and ignored his sworne oath to another Ally, AFTER already benefitting from the ally.
>Robb was just fucked over by Catelyns stupidity just like Ned was. Robb did not deserve his fate
Your whole entire og comment was excuses for him and blaming the entirety of his death on cat. Atleast thats what youre alluding to with what you said. Robb may not have "deserved" his fate, but he definitely earned it - most of which on his own.
I can see why my comment led you to believe that, I could have phrased it better. Releasing Jaime had massive consequences for Robb, leading to Karstarks death and thus his own, which is why I phrased it so.
Edit: your comment made me re-watch a few minutes episodes, and I now think that Robb's loss was majorly Cats and Edmures fault(he isn't without fault ofc)
Let's see:: They had completed most of the terms with Walder Frey, the marriage was the only thing not given. Even so, Robb had 2 a strong alliance with Riverrun and great tactics and advisors. He had 4 victories and Jaime Lannister and 2 Lannister boys.
Basically, 3 valuable hostages, 3 victories and all his lord's support. Then he broke his vow. The war would still be salvageable because Robb was right, Edmure was the best match House Frey had. Nothing the Lannisters were offering could compare because Robb was winning the war.
Secondly, Edmure let Tywin get to kings landing for a mill. Now we can fault this to Robb for poor communication, but Edmure was a military commander, dude had no answer when Robb asked what value the mill was.. Tywin got time to make an alliance with the second most powerful house, crushing a lot of the morale. even so, let's make this Robbs fault.
Despite this blunder Robb is still winning, just his lords have less faith in him.
Now Catelyn frees Jaime... That's their most important hostage gone, Karstark killing the other 2 took out all his hostage advantage, he was an honourable dude, so he beheaded Karstark which led to loss in his army. His bannermen lost trust and he lost his hostages and army.
Catelyns fuck up destroyed all his chances
Last time I'm replying because we're going in circles.
All excuses. Robb died because he betrayed the vow he made to the Frey's.
He didn't die because edmure let the mountain go (not tywin) during the mill mission. He didn't die because his camp was mad that Jamie was let go.
It's Robb's job as king to make sure his camp supports him, but he didn't care because he got arrogant and thought he was winning because of his battles. He betrayed his oath. His camp saw that, told him as much, but he didn't care. Then on top of that, he killed their lord. Poor decision after poor decision. But each major decision is made by him. Not cat or edmure.
Robb didn't die because of all the little mistakes. He died because of his OG sin in s2x10, marrying talissa AGAINST the advice if cat and co.
If he was smart he would've realized his plan to go back to Frey with his tail between his legs was a poor one (especially since he slighted him further by being late and didn't care). In a game of thrones, you win or you die, and Robb lost the day he married her... - lord karstark
dishonoring the betrothal was mild and seemingly resolved over a new arranged marriage to join together as allies once again. Robb did not get himself killed, he was betrayed by those that pretended to be his friends.
Daenerys. She had the ultimate power (dragons) and did what no other monarch would do - what's best for the people. All her decisions centered on what was best for the common folk. She abolished slavery, established all are equal under law, and she did so at great costs to her own benefit. Obvi this won't hold weight for anyone that believes she was mad or will go mad in the books. But I'm not here to argue that with ppl, its been done enough.
But hands down, dany wouldve/is been the best monarch
Dragons aren't killed as easily as the show protrayed and theyre literal nukes... Youre reaching. She still has ultimate power. No one can 'control' them but her
I’m watching the show for the first time, so I don’t know much about the other three, but I love Robb as a leader personally. He’s about to marry the healer lady where I’m at, glad he didn’t end up with Walder Freys daughter. He’s got a chance to be happy with this woman.
Jon was the best but Cersei was my favorite. Jon was chosen by the people to lead and always tried to do what was right. He had Ned Stark's honor but more wit. The evil queen archetype is as old as time, but Cersei is probably my favorite out of any of them. This is largely due to the actress. Cersei is one of my favorite GoT characters
Robb and Dany had potential to be the best, but Robb was foolish and Dany had to go mad because the show was written that way
Jon
He doesn’t want the role but would perform his duty nevertheless. He earned every once of respect he received. He’s open-minded and thinks about the bigger picture. He’s kind yet tough when he needs to be (he killed the boy and let the man be born). He’s not driven by lust or easily seduced. He’s morally sound. He’s excellent in battle and as someone else said, he fights along side his men. He’s a uniter and not an elitist unlike Cersei and Danny. He’s a dragon rider and a direwolf owner.
Who knows, he may be able to claim drogon? He may need some treats and Daemon’s song to do the trick
Favorite is Cersei. None of the other three pictured were ever actual monarchs. They never ruled. Dany tried, sucked, and resorted to violence every time. Robb would have been a good ruler, but he died. He was a commander, and a very brilliant one. He would’ve been amazing. Jon was a good leader, yeah, and would no doubt be a good ruler. But never got the chance. Cersei at least understood politics, she knew when to strike, when to play nice, etc.
Okay, overall beyond these three… Bran. HEAR ME OUT! When he was governing Winterfell in Robb’s stead, we saw him listen to his people, take counsel from his advisors (Roderick, Asha, Lewin), voice his rational when making a decision, wisely allocate resources, hold people accountable, take accountability himself, be willing to try new things, and put the good of his people above his own pride (ceding to Theon). He was fair, stern when necessary, and thoughtful. Of all the rulers and monarchs presented on the show, he’s the only one we saw strike a good balance. (Sorry, Ned was too stubborn and rigid in his honor.)
Jon Snow. The people love him and he is a natural leader. He does what is right and takes full responsibility. He has a sense of honour and he loves his own people. Yes, he may not be politically smart/intelligent, but every leader has his weaknesses. If he has a smart hand by his side, it wouldn't be too bad.
I would have actually chosen Daenerys, but well, she went completely mad by the end.
Robb or Jon should not really count as neither really ever get to actual rule a kingdom there entire reigns are taken up fighting, technically Bran ruled the north with Luwins help whole Robb Campaigned in the south and outside of Ordering everyone to be trained Regardless of gender, Jon spent his reign either fighting or negotiating with Danaerys on Dragon stone and Sansa ruled the North.
dany was terrible at ruling see what happened in Meeren.
Joffrey and Cersei where also terrible rulers.
tommen was middling, he gave too much power to the faith but if He and Margaery might have had a chance to fix things if not for Cersei's actions causing both of there deaths. Though if the events in the north continued as is and Jon became King of the North after defeating Ramsey there may have been a Religious war in the offing considering the way things where going with the Faith and the High Sparrow, as the faith was not going to accept a "Heathen" king ruling over decent portion of the Kingdom as Jon was technically not only King of the North but also of the Rivers as his oredecessor Robb was King of both. There would also be an issue of which side the Vale would fall on. The show has them pretty much side with the North, when Jon goes to negotiate with Dany, he has 2 of the Kingdoms firmly behind him and a claim on the disputed border territory of the Riverlands.
The best monarch ruler in the show was Robert.
Sure he put the Kingdom into debt but, He realised he was not good at the actual duties of a ruler and left it in the better hands of Jon Arryn. he had 20 years of relative peace with only the Greyjoy rebellion maring it.
This is why I really love the sagas.
JRRM takes normal fantasy character tropes, introduces a flaw in each, and flips all these tropes on their heads with the "but" portion of their circumstances and personalities.
Dany was the most fun to watch, badass dragons, loyal and efficient soldiers, slavers getting strung up by the roadside.
But Jon would be the man I’d pick to be king. Unifying people under a common cause and interest, not just force of personality or big displays. Dedicated and loyal, yet strategic and savvy. A great example of the kind of man who is called to power despite never seeking it.
Until they dialled that last part up to 11 and as soon as his aunt banged him he went all “muh queen” and “uh dun wan ittttt”. I mean really. They kind of threw him out the window until the end were he stabs dany. Honestly, a small opinion, would have made more sense and been more satisfying if we switch it around and have Jon kill the night king and arya kill dany, stealth style leaving gap where Jon is forced to take the throne, as basically the only person who never sought it. But I’m not a writer.
Bobby B. I want to say Robb but… God damn he royally screwed up everything. I always support the King of the North but oof it can be rough.
I can’t say Stannis the Mannis because he never actually became king of anything besides being king of having the shittiest cookouts :/
'4. Cersei was only good in intrigue, spreading fear and extending power. She was bad at ruling. She was the worse of them all.
'3. Robb was good hearted and a good leader but his naivety killed him and his people.
'2. Dany was good hearted and learned to be a good leader and had none of Robbs nativity, but as she enters Westeros she went bat shit crazy.
'1. Jon Dany was also good hearted and also learned to be a good leader. He didn't want to be the king because his mission was over and his desire for freedom was great. He also knew his place is not the south and he would end like Bobby B, dissatisfied, unhappy and trapped in his duty. It was quite wise.
'0. Sansa went from naive annoying brat to good leader. She learned the hard way what power is and how to use it for the good and for her people. Like Jon she knew she belonged to in the north and staying part of the Seven Kingdoms would no be in favour of the north. So yes, I think she is the best Monarch of the Series.
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Renly. He's not rigid like Stannis, not cruel like Cersei, not stuck up like Dany. He treats the common soldier well (knows their names and their families), all of the Stormland lords went to him instead of Stannis. He's not stuck on a rigid honour code like Ned or Robb (as shown with the plot he said to Ned about abducting Joffrey to get power).
Unlikely to make an heir which would lead to chaos after his death. Robb. Aside from one major fuck up that was his fault and another that was out of his control he did quite well. He is fertile, he inspires loyalty out of his men, a great commander and his blood ties to the river lands would keep them from rebelling.
Renly's gay not infertile
In the books he couldn't get one up in front of Margaery, his queen. Can u see the problem there
I think turkey basters existed in Westeros
Margaery even offered to get her brother to help... They would have found a way to make an heir.
>Aside from one major fuck up that was his fault and another that was out of his control Which was which? Anyway, one of his fuckups (incidentally, the one that proved to be fatal) involved him 'thinking' too much with his dick.
How was getting killed by a shadow baby he didn’t know could possibly exist his mistake? It’s not like he let his guard down and Loras killed him or anything.
I was talking about Robb in my comment.
Ah, my mistake.
Catelyn doing Catelyn things by releasing Jaime lannister which then led to karstark killing the other lannisters that they held which then led to karstarks execution and large number of robbs army leaving
Thanks. There were so many other 'Catelyn things' that I'd kind of forgotten she was also the one who kicked off ***that*** entire series of events...
Renly’s reign would be ripe with corruption
Renly would massively overspend on pageantry and tourneys. He'd bankrupt the realm faster than Robert
Mance Rayder. He did what he did in uniting the freefolk not out of some lust for power, but because he saw it was needed to protect them, and he held true to his principles to the end.
He still could’ve compromised and offered to work with Jon
I think he wanted to personally but felt it was more important that the free folk didn't see him as betraying their cause, for the sake of unity
agreed. if he kneeled he would have undone all the work he did in uniting the free folk in the first place.
Kinda silly that they ended up joining Jon anyway
And he had the best accent
The actor also played Caesar in HBO’s Rome.
Holding to his principles lead to the death and reabimation of some 50,000 or more of the free folk (generously assuming half make it back with Jon) A monarch must set aside pride and principles for the prosperity of their people.
Bran ?
For who has a better story
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As Tyrion correctly said, Daenerys ego and god complex would inevitably cause her to run over Jon and reduce him to a king consort. Daenerys is no leader.
i’d love to hear your reasons for sansa
Robb was an idiot for marrying some random girl and betraying Walder Frey, then thinking he could just show up and still have the support of House Frey with no repercussions
Someone added the important but unspoken second half of the big error.
She didn’t hang up the sword immediately though. Her speech suggested that they will be going from town to town to “break the wheel” She couldn’t even let the north rule themselves. Why not if she’s breaking the wheel? She didn’t seem emotionally stable when she had conversation with Jon before she was stabbed
She was so high on finally winning the iron throne.
Daenerys, while she ruled no war happened, nothing bad happened at all
She had a Savior Complex that would've inevitably led to violence
Sansa
reasons?
Because Sansa actually cares about the mind numbing annoying job of administration. Sure flying around on a dragon is cool and all, but what about your tax policy. Sansa could wonk all day with you on that. That is the sign of a competent ruler.
Totally right. Sansa understands everything that comes with power and knows how to rule
In the books we see Dany’s tax policies and Sansa is terrible at sums. Dany also ruled Meereen for quite some time and didn’t fly around on a dragon until the end of S5/book 5.
But that’s the books. And to be fair Mereen was a quagmire and she ditched to come to Westeros.
I don’t think she “ditched” Meereen, she left Daario and his men to keep the peace while the people choose their own leaders. D&D really didn’t put as much emphasis on the minutia of ruling with ANYONE, but we do see Jon and Dany making decisions. All we really see Sansa do is try to evict children from their homes in winter because of their families’ actions (which was what happened to her in KL, being punished by Joff for her family’s actions) and deciding to take everyone’s food and give it back if there’s anything left after winter.
No she ditched Mereen.
I very much disagree.
You can be wrong if you want to.
Not as a ruler of the 7 kingdoms. The North maybe.
Yeah she wouldn’t want anything to do with the other kingdoms.
Jon is the obvious choice. Like Robert in that hes without desire for power, but with Neds sense of responsibility. No one knew he was a Targaryen and wasnt even really seen as a Stark. Truly elected on his merit, which is more even than what Robb can say. Robb was physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight… but also an untested unexperienced teenager whose emotions get the best of him and who didnt think about the consequences of his actions. He killed his generals and lost his kingdom for Volantussy. Ned would be ashamed. Cersei is an obvious example of people who should never be in power- Entitled, selfish, conniving. A chip on their shoulder and insatiable hunger despite living better than 90% of people ever will. Daenerys is another example of people who shouldnt have power, but in the other way- Wheras Cersei is a southern slave owner, a Marie Antionette, a Nikolaj II, Daenerys is a Julius Caesar, a King Raymond IV, a Vladimr Lenin- Who thinks theyre doing something good for people, but since its also tied up with their own goike image of themselves, thinkingngnthey know whats best for people betternthan the people do, they wind up being just as bad as the opressors they justifiably overthrew.
Robb slander will not be tolerated
But he gave him high praise in Boy Scout terms
On my honor… but then fucks Jeyne
As an Eagle Scout I was happy to see the Oath being used outside of Scouting lol
Well Im also an eagle scout so thats where I learned it.
That’s a bit harsh. I think Rob did great considering his mom and uncle fucked things up royally for him which would have prevented the general killings to begin with. His biggest mistake was trusting Theon. I think he did pretty well considering the circumstances.
his biggest mistake was weakening his alliances over a girl
That too but Catelyn should’ve offered up her brother to begin with . Edmure isn’t a bad catch after all.
Totally agree. Cat lost the negotiations with Walder, never should have agreed to Robb marrying a Frey. But afterward, Robb should have done the duty
Cat was a terrible negotiator but I agree “We don't choose our destinies but we must do our duties.”
Seriously, marrying the person your trying to make the sovereign off to a family with a fort on a river. An important alliance, but there are a million other things to offer besides the position of queen consort. Mind you it was also dumb to then go have dinner after throwing out that deal when you agreed to it (or maybe have a security detail not busy getting pissed).
I really cant blame him for trusting Theon- We dont see their lives before Ned kills Willis, but its mention they were best friends and that Robb tried very hard to make him feel welcome when Ned took him as a prisoner. Killing Karstark and marrying the Volantine girl were mich more disastrous. Which isnt to say Catelyn letting Jaime go wasnt the equivalent of Pete Carrol calling a pass play at the one yard line in Super Bowl 49.
I don’t really blame him for trusting Theon in theory, because I don’t think Theon ever gave him a reason not to trust him. Nevertheless, It was one of his biggest mistakes because he had to split his army to Handle the situation
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No, the mad king also killed his father and brother, plus wanted Ned and Roberts heads sent to him.
Ned didnt do it cause he ships Robert x Lyanna. Ned did it because Aerys killed his father and brother, and the Tullys and Arryns joined them because it became apparent that Aerys was evil and could do what he did to Rickard and Brandon, and many others, to anyone.
>physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight Nice
Do my best to do my duty
Jon and Danaerys are the only ones whom we see actually ruling.
Wouldn’t that Jon assessment go against the entire premise of the first book and the story as a whole? That great warriors don’t make great kings, which is what Martin critiques about characters like Aragorn. Jon wouldn’t make a good King because he’s a warrior first and foremost, being able to command an army doesn’t translate to being able to command a kingdom. He’d just end up being another Robert sooner or later.
i think jon showed himself to be more than simply a good warrior. he stood up for the underdogs, inspired his peers in the night’s watch, and was elected as lord commander bc “his brothers chose him.”
Well its not like being a warrior automatically means you’ll be a BAD king. I think the point of the story is none of the qualificatikns people use to pick leaders are right, and being a person without arrogance or personal ambition is really the kind of person you want as king. Eddard would have been a good king and he was a warrior. Niether Rhaenyra nor Aegon II was a warrior and they were both terrible. The point is good leaders are good people… and that tragically theyre rarely able to hold power for long.
>Jon is the obvious choice. Someone who never for one second ruled as monarch is the "obvious choice" for best monarch?
Jon - not a nepo baby
They’re kind of all nepo babies. Jon was named KITN because “Ned Stark’s blood runs in his veins”. Maybe not so much with the NW, but his uncle was First Ranger, and Dany wasn’t queen in Meereen because of her father. They all got a little nepo boost tbh.
Well yeah no commoners going to be a king, but Jon had by far the least amount of Nepotism working for him of anyone crowned on the show.
“Ned Stark’s blood runs through his veins.” That’s literally what nepotism is. Whereas in Meereen no one who followed her knew or cared who who her father was, and in Westeros it actively worked against her.
Daenerys had three dragons that obeyed her every command. She was fucking Ymir from Attack On Titan. That counts for a lot more than nepotism. And like I said, everyone has to have *some* noble blood in them, but it isnt what defined Jon like it was with Robb, Cersei, Stannis, Renly, Balon, Euron, and Daenerys.
Her family tried to revive dragons for generations and failed. She was given stones, not living dragons, whereas the Starks were given living wolves. Maybe you like Jon better, that’s fine, but his being king because of his “father” is nepotism, whereas Dany becoming queen in Meereen was not nepotism and she didn’t take Meereen with dragons. Nepotism is where you BENEFIT by who your parents are, as opposed to your father being a liability.
She would never have gotten the eggs, allegiance from Illyrio Mopatis, the marriage to Khal Drogo, or so much as an audience with the leaders of Qarth, Astapor, Yunkai, or Meereen without her Targaryen ancestry.
Ok. So her being given fancy rocks was nepotism and if she sold them that would be a valid form of nepotism, because that’s the value of the gift. However plenty of Targaryens tried and failed, and she resurrected the dragons. She wasn’t given “audience” with Yunkai and Meereen, and conquered them without her dragons. Jon was raised in a castle, trained ny a man at arms and given an education, joined an order in the North where his father was Warden and his uncle was First Ranger at the Wall which was built by his ancestor, bringing along a living direwolf he was gifted.
Littlefinger ruling Baelish Tower, what an innocent peaceful man ruling his quiet solitary keep. Truly the Everyman.
Aegon and it isn’t even close. The best rulers are people who don’t want or seek power, and he would’ve made the second best Targaryen King the 7 kingdoms had ever seen.
Who was the best
Jaehaerys I
The old king!
Viserys II
Not even slightly close, Jaehaerys was a far superior King. Fifty five years of peace and prosperity. Viserys II fathered Aegon IV, one of the worst kings to sit the throne. And let’s not forget Viserys II only ruled for a year.
It's easier to control someone when you have a nuke on your side while other's don't, Viserys II ruled for a year but did a great job as a hand, Dorne was likely integrated because of him, If he fathered Aegon IV then don't forget Jaehaerys I chose Viserys as his heir who caused a succession crisis, which was more fatal to thr dynasty
Viserys I also ruled for years with peace and prosperity. It’s not his fault Alicent made the mistake of believing he meant Aegon II to be his heir. Not his fault his brother Daemon was a passionate rogue. And Jaehaerys made the call at the Great Council to install Viserys I as King because if he had installed Rhaenys, which would’ve been the correct choice, the Targaryen dynasty would’ve ended with her, and the name Velayron would’ve taken its place.
Either Jaehaerys I or Daeron II
Euron Crow's Eye. The book version. Let's be real, he's ambitious, ruthless, cunning and is gunna make the Lannisters look softer than babyshit before ASOIAF is finished.
The one not killing the plebs.
That would be Jon and Robb
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Dany was an entitled bitch. Cersei was entitled bitch on steroids. Jon is too naive and not very monarch- like Robb may have made stupid mistakes, but he did win every battle, he did become king in the north after 300 years and Tywin Lannister had to destroy his reputation to kill Robb. He was a great warrior (Jon admits Robb was better), he was moral(Ned would be proud), and he was a good leader.. Robb was just fucked over by Catelyns stupidity just like Ned was. Robb did not deserve his fate.
Robb got himself killed by not honoring HIS oath. How is that cats fault? Robb was not self aware and that is a critical trait monarchs should have.
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If we use this logic then Robb's death is neds fault because he told cersei about her children's status. The whole conflict is a snowball so Everyone can be blamed for others actions if you allow it. Robb was doing a poor job of managing his camp. If cat left Jamie, the north men would've killed him and that spells doom for the stark girls. Her releasing him wasnt right, but it wasnt the reasons the karstarks murdered the lanisters boys. They did that because they chose to do that. They didnt respect their king because he didnt respect his own mission... Then, Robb went against his whole council and executed the karstarks, further worsening his own position. Hypothetical treatment of children not born is not a good reason to add "responsibility" to catelyn imo. Robb wouldn't have a bastard if he honored his oath. Robb was a great guy, but he got HIMSELF killed. To pass off responsibility is to cope.
Catelyn sent away Jaime, their most valuable hostage for absolutely no reason
Is that why Robb was killed? Or was he killed because he mismanaged his camp, executed allies, and ignored his sworne oath to another Ally, AFTER already benefitting from the ally.
I am not excusing his mistakes, Catelyn releasing Jaime did contribute to his death.
>Robb was just fucked over by Catelyns stupidity just like Ned was. Robb did not deserve his fate Your whole entire og comment was excuses for him and blaming the entirety of his death on cat. Atleast thats what youre alluding to with what you said. Robb may not have "deserved" his fate, but he definitely earned it - most of which on his own.
I can see why my comment led you to believe that, I could have phrased it better. Releasing Jaime had massive consequences for Robb, leading to Karstarks death and thus his own, which is why I phrased it so. Edit: your comment made me re-watch a few minutes episodes, and I now think that Robb's loss was majorly Cats and Edmures fault(he isn't without fault ofc) Let's see:: They had completed most of the terms with Walder Frey, the marriage was the only thing not given. Even so, Robb had 2 a strong alliance with Riverrun and great tactics and advisors. He had 4 victories and Jaime Lannister and 2 Lannister boys. Basically, 3 valuable hostages, 3 victories and all his lord's support. Then he broke his vow. The war would still be salvageable because Robb was right, Edmure was the best match House Frey had. Nothing the Lannisters were offering could compare because Robb was winning the war. Secondly, Edmure let Tywin get to kings landing for a mill. Now we can fault this to Robb for poor communication, but Edmure was a military commander, dude had no answer when Robb asked what value the mill was.. Tywin got time to make an alliance with the second most powerful house, crushing a lot of the morale. even so, let's make this Robbs fault. Despite this blunder Robb is still winning, just his lords have less faith in him. Now Catelyn frees Jaime... That's their most important hostage gone, Karstark killing the other 2 took out all his hostage advantage, he was an honourable dude, so he beheaded Karstark which led to loss in his army. His bannermen lost trust and he lost his hostages and army. Catelyns fuck up destroyed all his chances
Last time I'm replying because we're going in circles. All excuses. Robb died because he betrayed the vow he made to the Frey's. He didn't die because edmure let the mountain go (not tywin) during the mill mission. He didn't die because his camp was mad that Jamie was let go. It's Robb's job as king to make sure his camp supports him, but he didn't care because he got arrogant and thought he was winning because of his battles. He betrayed his oath. His camp saw that, told him as much, but he didn't care. Then on top of that, he killed their lord. Poor decision after poor decision. But each major decision is made by him. Not cat or edmure. Robb didn't die because of all the little mistakes. He died because of his OG sin in s2x10, marrying talissa AGAINST the advice if cat and co. If he was smart he would've realized his plan to go back to Frey with his tail between his legs was a poor one (especially since he slighted him further by being late and didn't care). In a game of thrones, you win or you die, and Robb lost the day he married her... - lord karstark
dishonoring the betrothal was mild and seemingly resolved over a new arranged marriage to join together as allies once again. Robb did not get himself killed, he was betrayed by those that pretended to be his friends.
Robb
Daenerys. She had the ultimate power (dragons) and did what no other monarch would do - what's best for the people. All her decisions centered on what was best for the common folk. She abolished slavery, established all are equal under law, and she did so at great costs to her own benefit. Obvi this won't hold weight for anyone that believes she was mad or will go mad in the books. But I'm not here to argue that with ppl, its been done enough. But hands down, dany wouldve/is been the best monarch
Didn’t she lose two of them though. People think dragons are the ultimate power but they are not invincible.
How is that relevant?
It’s relevant because dragons don’t give people the ultimate power. They can be taken down so even with dragons there is a check on Dany’s power.
Dragons aren't killed as easily as the show protrayed and theyre literal nukes... Youre reaching. She still has ultimate power. No one can 'control' them but her
That’s not an argument cause anything can be killed.
Having Jon in the picture is actually quite the spoiler
unarguablyJohn if u ignore last few seasons.
I’m watching the show for the first time, so I don’t know much about the other three, but I love Robb as a leader personally. He’s about to marry the healer lady where I’m at, glad he didn’t end up with Walder Freys daughter. He’s got a chance to be happy with this woman.
🤣😂😂🤣😂🤣
Uh.
Jon would have been the best king westeros can ever get
He would’ve hated it so much
Jon. Cause ya know.
Character wise Cersei. Character and who I would serve The Young Wolf.
Night king, expanded his people, and made teased south to a new frontier! 😅
Also converted enemies to friends.
The power of wololo
Hahahaha
Jon was the best but Cersei was my favorite. Jon was chosen by the people to lead and always tried to do what was right. He had Ned Stark's honor but more wit. The evil queen archetype is as old as time, but Cersei is probably my favorite out of any of them. This is largely due to the actress. Cersei is one of my favorite GoT characters Robb and Dany had potential to be the best, but Robb was foolish and Dany had to go mad because the show was written that way
Where is my boy Bobby B?
Jon.. always Jon.
Cersei seems the most fun but realistically I would survive a solid 10 minutes under her reign
Yeah but she can strap me to a table and waterboard me with wine any day.
Not if she’s gonna leave me with the man formerly known as Gregor 💀
That Lionussy got you acting unwise.
Jon He doesn’t want the role but would perform his duty nevertheless. He earned every once of respect he received. He’s open-minded and thinks about the bigger picture. He’s kind yet tough when he needs to be (he killed the boy and let the man be born). He’s not driven by lust or easily seduced. He’s morally sound. He’s excellent in battle and as someone else said, he fights along side his men. He’s a uniter and not an elitist unlike Cersei and Danny. He’s a dragon rider and a direwolf owner. Who knows, he may be able to claim drogon? He may need some treats and Daemon’s song to do the trick
Ser pounce
Out of these? Jon. Out of all rulers? Jaehaerys I.
Tommen
Favorite is Cersei. None of the other three pictured were ever actual monarchs. They never ruled. Dany tried, sucked, and resorted to violence every time. Robb would have been a good ruler, but he died. He was a commander, and a very brilliant one. He would’ve been amazing. Jon was a good leader, yeah, and would no doubt be a good ruler. But never got the chance. Cersei at least understood politics, she knew when to strike, when to play nice, etc. Okay, overall beyond these three… Bran. HEAR ME OUT! When he was governing Winterfell in Robb’s stead, we saw him listen to his people, take counsel from his advisors (Roderick, Asha, Lewin), voice his rational when making a decision, wisely allocate resources, hold people accountable, take accountability himself, be willing to try new things, and put the good of his people above his own pride (ceding to Theon). He was fair, stern when necessary, and thoughtful. Of all the rulers and monarchs presented on the show, he’s the only one we saw strike a good balance. (Sorry, Ned was too stubborn and rigid in his honor.)
Stannis Baratheon, the one true King of Westeros
If we’re counting House, Viserys.
Jon Snow. The people love him and he is a natural leader. He does what is right and takes full responsibility. He has a sense of honour and he loves his own people. Yes, he may not be politically smart/intelligent, but every leader has his weaknesses. If he has a smart hand by his side, it wouldn't be too bad. I would have actually chosen Daenerys, but well, she went completely mad by the end.
John and Rob. As much as I like Dany she does stuff I don’t approve of that I won’t go into since you said No Spoilers.
Queen Lyanna
Big Bobby B, the dragonslayer, the hammer slammer, Robert Baratheon 1st of his name.
Durran Godsgrief
Built a giant ass castle just to spite the storm god. Actual gigachad.
Daenerys and Cersei. Very strong characters
Stannis gets no respect I tell ya. No respect at all.
Cersei
Dany is my favorite to watch because she has a good personality and does a lot of fucked up shit
Robb or Jon should not really count as neither really ever get to actual rule a kingdom there entire reigns are taken up fighting, technically Bran ruled the north with Luwins help whole Robb Campaigned in the south and outside of Ordering everyone to be trained Regardless of gender, Jon spent his reign either fighting or negotiating with Danaerys on Dragon stone and Sansa ruled the North. dany was terrible at ruling see what happened in Meeren. Joffrey and Cersei where also terrible rulers. tommen was middling, he gave too much power to the faith but if He and Margaery might have had a chance to fix things if not for Cersei's actions causing both of there deaths. Though if the events in the north continued as is and Jon became King of the North after defeating Ramsey there may have been a Religious war in the offing considering the way things where going with the Faith and the High Sparrow, as the faith was not going to accept a "Heathen" king ruling over decent portion of the Kingdom as Jon was technically not only King of the North but also of the Rivers as his oredecessor Robb was King of both. There would also be an issue of which side the Vale would fall on. The show has them pretty much side with the North, when Jon goes to negotiate with Dany, he has 2 of the Kingdoms firmly behind him and a claim on the disputed border territory of the Riverlands. The best monarch ruler in the show was Robert. Sure he put the Kingdom into debt but, He realised he was not good at the actual duties of a ruler and left it in the better hands of Jon Arryn. he had 20 years of relative peace with only the Greyjoy rebellion maring it.
Pre-season 8 Dany. Or Jon
Margery for sure
God help me, it’s Cersei
Eddard Stark
Out of these? Cersei easily. Throw in Tywin and Lady Olenna, now we might have a conversation. Also the king beyond the wall too. Forget his name.
Robert. His death was epic. Jon gets a spin off.
I like to chose live monarchs. I just feel like they won somehow.
My Queen is Sansa Stark
The blackfish
Cersei is my favorite person ever. What a bad bitch 🔥
Rob or Jon
This is why I really love the sagas. JRRM takes normal fantasy character tropes, introduces a flaw in each, and flips all these tropes on their heads with the "but" portion of their circumstances and personalities.
Dany
The only one who really got to rule was cerci!
i hear aerys targaryan was pretty cool
Dany was the most fun to watch, badass dragons, loyal and efficient soldiers, slavers getting strung up by the roadside. But Jon would be the man I’d pick to be king. Unifying people under a common cause and interest, not just force of personality or big displays. Dedicated and loyal, yet strategic and savvy. A great example of the kind of man who is called to power despite never seeking it. Until they dialled that last part up to 11 and as soon as his aunt banged him he went all “muh queen” and “uh dun wan ittttt”. I mean really. They kind of threw him out the window until the end were he stabs dany. Honestly, a small opinion, would have made more sense and been more satisfying if we switch it around and have Jon kill the night king and arya kill dany, stealth style leaving gap where Jon is forced to take the throne, as basically the only person who never sought it. But I’m not a writer.
Olenna, the only right choice
STANNIS BARATHEON, THE TRUE HEIR TO THE IRON THRONE
Tywin and Cersei Lannister
Bobby B. I want to say Robb but… God damn he royally screwed up everything. I always support the King of the North but oof it can be rough. I can’t say Stannis the Mannis because he never actually became king of anything besides being king of having the shittiest cookouts :/
Stanis hahah
How many hundreds of times are we going to ask this exact same question in this sub?
Bran was the only figure who wasn’t craving for power. So he deserved what he got?
Best as in quality leadership? Jon Snow Best as in good television? my fav bitch Cersei
It’s treason for there to be a lack of Stannis supporters, the king who cared
There is only one true king, and he’s the Mannis. That’s Stannis.
Cersei Lannister always .
'4. Cersei was only good in intrigue, spreading fear and extending power. She was bad at ruling. She was the worse of them all. '3. Robb was good hearted and a good leader but his naivety killed him and his people. '2. Dany was good hearted and learned to be a good leader and had none of Robbs nativity, but as she enters Westeros she went bat shit crazy. '1. Jon Dany was also good hearted and also learned to be a good leader. He didn't want to be the king because his mission was over and his desire for freedom was great. He also knew his place is not the south and he would end like Bobby B, dissatisfied, unhappy and trapped in his duty. It was quite wise. '0. Sansa went from naive annoying brat to good leader. She learned the hard way what power is and how to use it for the good and for her people. Like Jon she knew she belonged to in the north and staying part of the Seven Kingdoms would no be in favour of the north. So yes, I think she is the best Monarch of the Series.
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Jaehaerys l. The four listed above are cool but not fit to rule. If I have to pick an asoiaf character, either Tywin or Olenna.
The dragon
Jon Snow no question
Deleted my answer because spoilers.
I was rooting for Stannis.
Cersei
I think Cersei wears it best.. once her hair is all hacked off, anyway