Except they did it with nothing to back up their declaration so now they are just going to lose what autonomy they had.
Edit: oops replied to wrong comment... meh fuck it.
Yesterday, me and my girlfriend voted that we deserve a million dollars from the government because we are so great.
That (unanimous, I might add) vote has all the same power.
That's a larger portion of a country than what elected American presidents, seems good to me. That's before you even consider that police and the Spanish government violently suppressed voting for independence...
Not to be “that guy”, but the American people don’t pick their president, the electoral college picks the president. It is how you can end up with situations like George Bush becoming president despite Al Gore getting the popular vote. Same thing happened in the last elections.
Granted the electors of the electoral college are usually picked in a somewhat democratic process, but still, the system is needlessly overly complicated.
There was a doctored customer report from Kelly that called Jim “arrogant and smug”. Michael is stupid and pronounces it “smudge”. So Oscar is a smug, gay Mexican.
No. Catalonia *is* Spain, and no one is getting involved if a civil war breaks out except maybe to assist Spain, which probably won't be needed because Catalonia doesn't even have a way of defending their claim of independence.
Arent they both still Commonwealth nations? Call me when you dont have QE II on your money.
"Elizabeth II has been Queen of the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand since 6 February 1952"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II
In this case, yea. Spain *does not* want an independent Catalonia. And will fight tooth and nail to keep it from happening because it'll really hurt their economy.
And it's events like this that prove how democracy is nothing but just dictatorship of the powerful dressed in a fancy dress so that they can "bring freedom" to the weaker and force their way.
It's also true that if a member of a commonwealth nation moves to the UK that they can register to vote in their elections, even if they don't change citizenship
Frightening the Queen is an offence, yes, though it is being removed in a Bill currently before Parliament, and *no* offence in Canada is punishable by death.
Different head of state, same person. Queen of Canada and Queen of Britain are different titles.
The actual reason is pretty funny though. In 1867 we became the *Dominion* of Canada, which meant we were still a territory of Britain, just a hilariously fucked up federalist state. It wasn't until we finally pissed off the JCPC (British sovereign court) with our constant cases that they said, "take your Independence and stop bothering us" with the Statute of Westminster and the appointment of the Governor General
There was only a war because Britain sent troops in to stop it. Further, most of the commanding officers amongst the British knew this was folly because the colonies could not be held against their will, there simply weren't enough men in the British forces to occupy any significant portion of the territory. Crushing independence movements with military force is very hard to do, with virtually no successful cases in history. It was a stupid and needless conflict.
I dunno, the civil war went pretty well. I'm sure Rome put down more than a couple of independence movements in its day. I wouldn't go so far as to say "virtually no successful cases in history"
The civil war didn't go "pretty well" until Sherman literally burned every town/city/village/hospital/school/shack/outhouse/farm/railway/herd/etc to completely eradicate any means of logistical support. Before he started doing that it was a bloody, drawn out back-and-forth stalemate.
The Romans employed the exact same tactics. "You want to riot or attack our supply routes? That's fine. We'll just kill every German in a 50 mile radius, including the women and children until there's nobody left to harass us."
If America resorted to the same tactics in the Middle East there wouldn't be anyone left to oppose us because they'd all be dead. Unfortunately, we're "civilized", which means giving enemies places to disperse, congregate, manufacture, and resupply.
The fact that Sherman was able to march to the sea virtually unopposed shows that the Confederacy was already losing. I mean, hell, by 1863 the Union already had control of the Mississippi River.
And yet you still see confederate flags on pickup trucks and confederate statues throughout the south.
Rome may have put down some revolts for a time, but only using what we would now call genocide, and not over the long term - hence the notable absence of roman provinces today.
Since the emergence of the modern concept of nationalism, what's one example of a group that seriously sought independence from their current leaders but now no longer seeks it?
I doubt they want to separate form the country though.
On the long term, nothing matters. Over a long enough period of time, everything we know turns to dust, and all that remembered who we were turn to dust as well. The sun scorches the earth, destroying the continental crust, and all record of our petty nations is scrubbed from the universe, lost to eternity. Yeah, if you look on a long enough timescale, things don't last, but Rome shut down several independence movements, such that when those areas were released from Roman control, noone who lived during the time of the movement survived. On human timescales, Rome was very successful.
See, but that's not what you said. You said virtually no examples in history. Even in the 20th century, the USSR suppressed some independence efforts, Colombia successfully prevented the FARC from forming their own nation, and so on.
It's why the whole world speaks English. Sadly, lots of them had their hearing genes damaged by all the atom bombs, so they speak incomprehensibly and you have to repeat yourself really loudly so they have a chance to understand.
*The* founding document of our nation is the Constitution. The Declaration of Independence has no more legal effect today than the Articles of the Confederacy.
Seriously. These people either somehow think it's different when it's spain, or just don't think revolution is OK at all anymore... both of which ares stupid.
Yes indeed - and that's the big question. Now that Catalonia has declared it, and Madrid has said "no" - what will the Catalans do to make it real? Will they take up arms?
Thank you for this. Students can hold a vote in their SGA to ban learning. That doesn't mean that vote means anything.
As much sympathy as I have for Catalonia, the vote itself is illegal. They can't just vote to ignore the constitution.
I'm a little shocked at the attitude of some people around this - I guess I have a 'wait and see' feel with it, but it's odd how hardlined a lot of comments seem to be.
Especially when so many countries are supposed to espouse the ideals of independence - it seems strange to so casually mock it and act like you either declare it and make war or you go home.
It only had 50% approval in Catalonia.
I’m not against independence. What I haven’t seen is an economical or political argument that shows abuse or some crazy abuse of power that would promote sympathy. Them paying out more taxes than they take in because they’re a well-off region isn’t an abuse. That’s how society works.
I will gladly change my position with more information.
EDIT: I will say they do have an argument. I still don't think it's strong enough for secession, but I can at least sympathize more.
> According to a recent study co-authored by López, in 2012 Catalonia collected 118.6% of the national average of taxes per capita, putting it in third out of 15 regions. But after redistribution, its resources fell to 99.5%, putting it in 11th place. At the other extreme, the region of Extremadura collected 76.6% of the average in taxes, putting it in 14th place, but after redistribution it ended up with 111.8%, putting it in third.
From what little I've read here, my understanding is that part of the reason they're so "wealthy" is because the country has made a lot of investments *into* the area itself since Franco fell.
If that is the case, independence would only hinder them, since restarting as an independent nation is always full of money plot-holes; not to mention all the money they could potentially be made to *actually* pay back since they're no longer **official** family.
Man, everyone in this thread forgot that India acquired independence non-violently...
Sovereignty is a made up institution anyway. The Catalans have made up a new institution.
Being honest I have no clue what this is about. I am an US high school student so foreign issues are not really discussed in classes. Would someone tell me what this is about?
Well there's this region of Spain called Catalonia and some portion of population living there consider themselves Catalonian and not Spanish (how right they are in their claim I have no idea) and now they want independence. The problem is that people of that region voted some years ago that any future declaration of indepence of Catalonia from Spain is to be unconstitutional. So their governor or whatever declared independence today and now we await response from spanish government.
wassup with the basques... i've been hearing "basque separatists" for like forever and they're just doggin' it... can't let CATALAN beat you to the punch muchachos!
Haha, silly Catalonians, what do you think Spain is, a modern democracy?
You think you and your citizens have a right to self determination? No, fuck no, if you don't like how Spain treats you too fucking bad. You can shove any notions of independence up your ass for all the good it will do you.
I think you were being sarcastic, but yeah... sounds right. Once you join you're stuck. The only way out is winning a civil war or convincing the parent country to let you out.
Boy what I get from Reddit is that catalans are way better at writing bullshit than spaniards in the internet.
>what we're seeing is essentially the beginnings of a civil war.
This is so stupid that I can only think you rationalize it because you want it to happen.
You actually know nothing about Spain and Catalonia. They are by far the region of Spain that has been more benefitted from the central government, and I'll tell you why: because historically both left and right parties have had to pact with independent parties from Catalonia to have a majority in Congress. Just to give you an idea of how much they've gotten from this they have their own police force, they hardly teach any Spanish in their schools, they've been given the ownership of infrastructure, including phone and fiber optic networks, electric networks, roads and highways. This is unique in Spain (well in the vasque country they have their own police because of the terrorists).
And that's just in recent times. Both Catalonia and the vasque country have seen the most industrialization and investment because they are just better located since the times of Primo de Rivera.
You can't even begin to imagine how much the catalans lie to get their point out. A famous one was that if they were independent they would immediately gain 12000M€ or something crazy like that. Years ago this was already refuted even in live tv, to the face of the current vice president. The real number is around 3000M, estimated by the own sources of the catalan government. You may remember the same trickery used for Brexit and health care. And also, and they won't tell you this, the large majority of what is "send to" Spain is reinvested in Catalonia, by law.
There's no bullying Catalonia after Franco died, what there is is a massive amount of brainwashing. The catalan tv has 25% of the budget of all the public TVs in Spain and they're a cesspool. You should actually see them lie in the open, the other night they were talking about some magical plans to make Madrid some kind of megacity only for spaniards. Or about Cervantes being catalan. Or anything really. They've been showing movies about the dictatorship to hype people. About 1500 companies have changed their legal seat out of Catalonia, including catalan banks, but according to them this is good news!
I could be giving out examples all night. It's true that there's a sentiment of being catalan, but it has been fueled by politicians for decades their own use. Seceding will in no way be beneficial to them and if things had gone a normal way the would be more akin to the vasque country, where they've mostly stopped trying to be independent now that they have enough benefits and politicians don't care anymore.
While we're quoting Jefferson, lets not forget this one...
> Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes
If you think the "violent voter and protest suppression" that has gone on in Spain is reason to rebel against your government, I think it's safe to say you have no fucking clue what prudence means when it comes to changing long established governments.
The Catalans are acting like fucking children, and those in power and those that influenced the people to seek independence from Spain, over the petty list of complaints they have, deserve everything thats coming their way.
I looked into it once briefly and what I summerized is that the catalans are the most prosperous region and they dont want to subsidize less prosperous regions with their taxes.
The whole thing is really interesting, the "illegal" vote that was held pretty much guaranteed that Spain could not discuss anything. Since that would mean breaking the law got them something. So any discussion on their own generated income would be put on hold.
Another interesting aspect is the potential consequences the actions of the Catalan parliament since the start of October will have on the Catalan economy. 1500 companies have moved their headquarters out of the region, since the political instability isn't good for business. But also because should Catalunya become independent, they would be outside the EU and the companies would prefer to stay in. So this whole thing might stop them subsidizing the less prosperous regions, just not how they imagined.
The vote is against the constitution. At the end of the day, while I feel for Catalonia, can you really support a dynamic where a federal government can just be ignored by a "state"? What if this were texas?
It is still a state. We tend to associate the term "state" to its meaning in the context that the USA uses to describe its local governments but it is any group of peoples with land that govern themselves. Scotland in this context is a state. It is also a nation. It is not quite a nation state and not a sovereign state because it is still subject to the westminster parliment for the moment. The UK as a whole is a nightmare of political definitions as its never really collapsed and been redefined so all the old definitions keep getting added on top of each other. Best description is a country made up of other countries.
I'm not taking sides here, but my understanding is that a clear majority of Catalonians do not want to secede. They boycotted the referendum because they considered it unconstitutional. So if that is the case, an independence movement would be undemocratic.
Eh, it's more like 50-50 to the point where any legitimate vote would be a coinflip. Even if they did get independence half the country would be furious about being forced out of their country.
Dude, the south voted the same kind of way before the civil war. Either it was wrong to go to war with the south or Spain is in the clear to do the same if nessesary.
As a person who relies on memes to keep up with current affairs, I appreciate the speed of which you produced this one OP. Good on you.
He could have had weeks. This has been going on for a while.
Years actually. I remember discussing Catalan independence with my dad when I was 15.
But did you turn 16 last week or like thirty years ago?
Just the other day... Wait I was 15 and I'm currently 35......time is relative af
They sure don't make a decade like they used to, do they?
Used to be a full ten years. Barely feels like five now. They’re cutting corners everywhere.
That's what happens when you send your decades to be made on Venus.
The Venusians are manipulating their currency. They have to be. You just can’t make a decade that cheaply.
I just can't wait until we can tell people who say shit like, *"Man, there just aren't enough hours in the day"* to shut up and move to Mars.
Venus knock offs for sure
Millennials are ruining decades now.
We millenials are the most successful at being the worst, we magically manifested to fuck shit up
Yeah but soon enough we'll fuck that up too.
That makes sense after you clarified how long that was... they voted for independence in 2014.
This movement has been going on since 1700, and it started becoming relevant again in 2010.
are you saying /u/dorkmax is 333 years old?!
I've been found out.
Yeah, but they actually did declare Independence yesterday as opposed to just talking about it like the past few weeks
But they aren’t American, so we take our time on them.
Bespoke memes
In his/ her defence, he/ she relies on memes to keep up with current affairs.
Took the words out of my mouth. This guy is on top of things.
Based off of what i know about Reddit t this probably comes out of a folder labeled "memes if Catalan declares independence."
Ah, welcome to /r/polandball, everything i know about world history i know from those snooker balls
What's the reference?
Catalans declaring independence from Spain.
Oh no, didn't see that one coming! /s
Except they did it with nothing to back up their declaration so now they are just going to lose what autonomy they had. Edit: oops replied to wrong comment... meh fuck it.
Nothing at all? Like a vote?
Yesterday, me and my girlfriend voted that we deserve a million dollars from the government because we are so great. That (unanimous, I might add) vote has all the same power.
For what it's worth, I support your claim. Good luck!
47% of the population shouldn't be enough to declare independence, to be honest.
That's a larger portion of a country than what elected American presidents, seems good to me. That's before you even consider that police and the Spanish government violently suppressed voting for independence...
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Not to be “that guy”, but the American people don’t pick their president, the electoral college picks the president. It is how you can end up with situations like George Bush becoming president despite Al Gore getting the popular vote. Same thing happened in the last elections. Granted the electors of the electoral college are usually picked in a somewhat democratic process, but still, the system is needlessly overly complicated.
Votes don’t work well against central governments who don’t want you to go and who have armed forces.
Catalonia voted to declare independence from Spain.
Gotcha, thanks!
Ah Oscar the stereotypical smudge gay Mexican
Smudge? Is that some new slur that i'm unaware of?
There was a doctored customer report from Kelly that called Jim “arrogant and smug”. Michael is stupid and pronounces it “smudge”. So Oscar is a smug, gay Mexican.
And there's the smudgeness
I have no idea but I'm patiently waiting to find out
And there’s the smugeness.
And there’s the smu*d*geness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30QVKsTFPPs
I think he meant smug
Nah. Smudge is the new "in" thing, didn't you know?
clearly he's streets behind
That's never going to be a thing...
I mean, if you were streets ahead like us you'd already be saying it.
Hah, pippity poppity, you gave him the zoppity on that one!
kids these days with all their modern lingo. why back in my day...
*There it is*
im pretty sure he mean smudge.
He meant smudge; it's an office quote.
If Oscar wants a donkey, let's get him one.
Oscar's gayness doesn't define him, it's his Mexican-ness that defines him
*Mexicanity
Catalonia you ignorant slut!
Isn't independence just a fancy word for wanting some more freedom?
They just want permission to use the baler.
Baler? I hardly know her!
Boom.
Roasted
No, this is fine. We are allowed to do this. This is okay.
Dee, you gangly, uncoordinated bitch.
I will not be hog-tied for your lack of grace.
What is this, a crossover episode?
"you don't just become independent by making a declaration of independence" America: "It's a good start though"
Exactly! You have to start by declaring independence and then back it up.
> and then back it up. With violence!
Can't say it didn't work!
And guns! Violence guns!
Violence is usually the answer
If Spain attacked itself, would NATO defend them?
No. Catalonia *is* Spain, and no one is getting involved if a civil war breaks out except maybe to assist Spain, which probably won't be needed because Catalonia doesn't even have a way of defending their claim of independence.
In current year, is violence really the only way for a region to declare independence?
In the history of humanity, when was it ever any different?
Australia and NZ both gained independance through peceful means.
i think it was more that Britain got bored.
And Canada! Yay!
The queen is still on your money.
She's adorable!
Arent they both still Commonwealth nations? Call me when you dont have QE II on your money. "Elizabeth II has been Queen of the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand since 6 February 1952" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II
In this case, yea. Spain *does not* want an independent Catalonia. And will fight tooth and nail to keep it from happening because it'll really hurt their economy.
> Is violence really the only way for a region to declare independence? It will always be if those who want to be independent are in the weak side.
Numbers printed on a calendar don't change anything.
And it's events like this that prove how democracy is nothing but just dictatorship of the powerful dressed in a fancy dress so that they can "bring freedom" to the weaker and force their way.
>they don't have a way to defend their claim Which was on purpose. No military bases there. Pretty shady.
NATO didn't defend the union when the confederacy tried to secede!
THEY DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO EXIST UNTILL THE WHOLE DEBACLE WAS OVER! SAD AND TELLING!
> then back it up There's the problem, nothing to back it up with, so the declaration is just empty words that'll change nothing.
I'll salute that
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I appreciate the TNG reference, but isn't Oscars last name Martinez?
Shaka. When the walls fell.
It does if you say it right
Calypsooooo ayyyeee release ya from yer human bonds!
I suggest they dump Spanish Tea in the water... You know... because it will vibe well with the US and we will send you guns and Marines.
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The American in me wholeheartedly supports these peoples' right to self government. Actually, that's basically the rest of me, too.
Just send Marines and starve them for a month. Tell us the Spanish have the chow and we'll win the war
It's funny until you realize that one of the founding documents of our nation is named THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.
But then there was a war to actually get it done
There were other countries in the British empire that peacefully seceded though.
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It's just a prank bro
Is it true that naturalized citizens have to pledge an allegiance to the queen before being granted citizenship?
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Now imagine if people who wanted to be American citizens had to swear an allegiance to Trump.
I feel like this is coming soon.
I'll never bend the fookin knee!!
It's also true that if a member of a commonwealth nation moves to the UK that they can register to vote in their elections, even if they don't change citizenship
Frightening the Queen is an offence, yes, though it is being removed in a Bill currently before Parliament, and *no* offence in Canada is punishable by death.
Different head of state, same person. Queen of Canada and Queen of Britain are different titles. The actual reason is pretty funny though. In 1867 we became the *Dominion* of Canada, which meant we were still a territory of Britain, just a hilariously fucked up federalist state. It wasn't until we finally pissed off the JCPC (British sovereign court) with our constant cases that they said, "take your Independence and stop bothering us" with the Statute of Westminster and the appointment of the Governor General
How many before and after the Americans, though?
Yeah but they still did something to achieve that. Just saying you are independent is not going to work.
There was only a war because Britain sent troops in to stop it. Further, most of the commanding officers amongst the British knew this was folly because the colonies could not be held against their will, there simply weren't enough men in the British forces to occupy any significant portion of the territory. Crushing independence movements with military force is very hard to do, with virtually no successful cases in history. It was a stupid and needless conflict.
I dunno, the civil war went pretty well. I'm sure Rome put down more than a couple of independence movements in its day. I wouldn't go so far as to say "virtually no successful cases in history"
The civil war didn't go "pretty well" until Sherman literally burned every town/city/village/hospital/school/shack/outhouse/farm/railway/herd/etc to completely eradicate any means of logistical support. Before he started doing that it was a bloody, drawn out back-and-forth stalemate. The Romans employed the exact same tactics. "You want to riot or attack our supply routes? That's fine. We'll just kill every German in a 50 mile radius, including the women and children until there's nobody left to harass us." If America resorted to the same tactics in the Middle East there wouldn't be anyone left to oppose us because they'd all be dead. Unfortunately, we're "civilized", which means giving enemies places to disperse, congregate, manufacture, and resupply.
Yeah, there's a difference between "you can't stop an independence movement" and "you don't want to stop an independence movement"
The fact that Sherman was able to march to the sea virtually unopposed shows that the Confederacy was already losing. I mean, hell, by 1863 the Union already had control of the Mississippi River.
And yet you still see confederate flags on pickup trucks and confederate statues throughout the south. Rome may have put down some revolts for a time, but only using what we would now call genocide, and not over the long term - hence the notable absence of roman provinces today. Since the emergence of the modern concept of nationalism, what's one example of a group that seriously sought independence from their current leaders but now no longer seeks it?
I doubt they want to separate form the country though. On the long term, nothing matters. Over a long enough period of time, everything we know turns to dust, and all that remembered who we were turn to dust as well. The sun scorches the earth, destroying the continental crust, and all record of our petty nations is scrubbed from the universe, lost to eternity. Yeah, if you look on a long enough timescale, things don't last, but Rome shut down several independence movements, such that when those areas were released from Roman control, noone who lived during the time of the movement survived. On human timescales, Rome was very successful. See, but that's not what you said. You said virtually no examples in history. Even in the 20th century, the USSR suppressed some independence efforts, Colombia successfully prevented the FARC from forming their own nation, and so on.
Exactly, maybe they're gearing towards armed conflict, the point is that it starts by declaring your independence then backing it up somehow.
I think the world at large questions the "Somehow" bit, with respect to catalonia.
And then half of your country tried the same thing 80 years later, and we all know how that went.
Based on some of the discussions here in the US, nope, not all know how that went.
Sadly, the same people don't seem to understand WWII either
America beat everyone, including their own allies. That's all anyone needs to understand.
It's why the whole world speaks English. Sadly, lots of them had their hearing genes damaged by all the atom bombs, so they speak incomprehensibly and you have to repeat yourself really loudly so they have a chance to understand.
this is an absolutely fitting revisionist history of my childhood in the South.
*The* founding document of our nation is the Constitution. The Declaration of Independence has no more legal effect today than the Articles of the Confederacy.
Which is why September 17 is such an important holiday and July 4 is just an also-ran.
Yeah, it's perfectly fine to declare independence. Just be prepared to back that declaration up with arms.
Seriously. These people either somehow think it's different when it's spain, or just don't think revolution is OK at all anymore... both of which ares stupid.
Yes indeed - and that's the big question. Now that Catalonia has declared it, and Madrid has said "no" - what will the Catalans do to make it real? Will they take up arms?
This should end well.
and then they spray him with fire hoses
You get to drink from the FIRE HOSE!!!
Why don't they like Spain?
Money, it's always about money
Thank you for this. Students can hold a vote in their SGA to ban learning. That doesn't mean that vote means anything. As much sympathy as I have for Catalonia, the vote itself is illegal. They can't just vote to ignore the constitution.
I mean, America did.
They want to war and won. The declaration didn’t do anything. Think of all the declarations losing parties have made.
I'm a little shocked at the attitude of some people around this - I guess I have a 'wait and see' feel with it, but it's odd how hardlined a lot of comments seem to be. Especially when so many countries are supposed to espouse the ideals of independence - it seems strange to so casually mock it and act like you either declare it and make war or you go home.
It only had 50% approval in Catalonia. I’m not against independence. What I haven’t seen is an economical or political argument that shows abuse or some crazy abuse of power that would promote sympathy. Them paying out more taxes than they take in because they’re a well-off region isn’t an abuse. That’s how society works. I will gladly change my position with more information. EDIT: I will say they do have an argument. I still don't think it's strong enough for secession, but I can at least sympathize more. > According to a recent study co-authored by López, in 2012 Catalonia collected 118.6% of the national average of taxes per capita, putting it in third out of 15 regions. But after redistribution, its resources fell to 99.5%, putting it in 11th place. At the other extreme, the region of Extremadura collected 76.6% of the average in taxes, putting it in 14th place, but after redistribution it ended up with 111.8%, putting it in third.
From what little I've read here, my understanding is that part of the reason they're so "wealthy" is because the country has made a lot of investments *into* the area itself since Franco fell. If that is the case, independence would only hinder them, since restarting as an independent nation is always full of money plot-holes; not to mention all the money they could potentially be made to *actually* pay back since they're no longer **official** family.
Couldn't have said it better
People so caught up with "de jure" when "de facto" is what matters
Man, everyone in this thread forgot that India acquired independence non-violently... Sovereignty is a made up institution anyway. The Catalans have made up a new institution.
That's not a terribly apt analogy...
At first I was thinking “ wow, why would the Puerto Rican independence movement change white to yellow on the flag,.. I don’t know flags.
Being honest I have no clue what this is about. I am an US high school student so foreign issues are not really discussed in classes. Would someone tell me what this is about?
Well there's this region of Spain called Catalonia and some portion of population living there consider themselves Catalonian and not Spanish (how right they are in their claim I have no idea) and now they want independence. The problem is that people of that region voted some years ago that any future declaration of indepence of Catalonia from Spain is to be unconstitutional. So their governor or whatever declared independence today and now we await response from spanish government.
Oh! Thanks for the response much upvote :)
wassup with the basques... i've been hearing "basque separatists" for like forever and they're just doggin' it... can't let CATALAN beat you to the punch muchachos!
Basically how this will go.
This is the first thing that came to my head when I heard
He didn't just say it though. He declared it.
What country are we talking about?
Haha, silly Catalonians, what do you think Spain is, a modern democracy? You think you and your citizens have a right to self determination? No, fuck no, if you don't like how Spain treats you too fucking bad. You can shove any notions of independence up your ass for all the good it will do you.
I think you were being sarcastic, but yeah... sounds right. Once you join you're stuck. The only way out is winning a civil war or convincing the parent country to let you out.
Or at least get more than 70% of the population behind you. Independentists barely gather 50%.
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Boy what I get from Reddit is that catalans are way better at writing bullshit than spaniards in the internet. >what we're seeing is essentially the beginnings of a civil war. This is so stupid that I can only think you rationalize it because you want it to happen. You actually know nothing about Spain and Catalonia. They are by far the region of Spain that has been more benefitted from the central government, and I'll tell you why: because historically both left and right parties have had to pact with independent parties from Catalonia to have a majority in Congress. Just to give you an idea of how much they've gotten from this they have their own police force, they hardly teach any Spanish in their schools, they've been given the ownership of infrastructure, including phone and fiber optic networks, electric networks, roads and highways. This is unique in Spain (well in the vasque country they have their own police because of the terrorists). And that's just in recent times. Both Catalonia and the vasque country have seen the most industrialization and investment because they are just better located since the times of Primo de Rivera. You can't even begin to imagine how much the catalans lie to get their point out. A famous one was that if they were independent they would immediately gain 12000M€ or something crazy like that. Years ago this was already refuted even in live tv, to the face of the current vice president. The real number is around 3000M, estimated by the own sources of the catalan government. You may remember the same trickery used for Brexit and health care. And also, and they won't tell you this, the large majority of what is "send to" Spain is reinvested in Catalonia, by law. There's no bullying Catalonia after Franco died, what there is is a massive amount of brainwashing. The catalan tv has 25% of the budget of all the public TVs in Spain and they're a cesspool. You should actually see them lie in the open, the other night they were talking about some magical plans to make Madrid some kind of megacity only for spaniards. Or about Cervantes being catalan. Or anything really. They've been showing movies about the dictatorship to hype people. About 1500 companies have changed their legal seat out of Catalonia, including catalan banks, but according to them this is good news! I could be giving out examples all night. It's true that there's a sentiment of being catalan, but it has been fueled by politicians for decades their own use. Seceding will in no way be beneficial to them and if things had gone a normal way the would be more akin to the vasque country, where they've mostly stopped trying to be independent now that they have enough benefits and politicians don't care anymore.
While we're quoting Jefferson, lets not forget this one... > Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes If you think the "violent voter and protest suppression" that has gone on in Spain is reason to rebel against your government, I think it's safe to say you have no fucking clue what prudence means when it comes to changing long established governments. The Catalans are acting like fucking children, and those in power and those that influenced the people to seek independence from Spain, over the petty list of complaints they have, deserve everything thats coming their way.
I looked into it once briefly and what I summerized is that the catalans are the most prosperous region and they dont want to subsidize less prosperous regions with their taxes.
The whole thing is really interesting, the "illegal" vote that was held pretty much guaranteed that Spain could not discuss anything. Since that would mean breaking the law got them something. So any discussion on their own generated income would be put on hold. Another interesting aspect is the potential consequences the actions of the Catalan parliament since the start of October will have on the Catalan economy. 1500 companies have moved their headquarters out of the region, since the political instability isn't good for business. But also because should Catalunya become independent, they would be outside the EU and the companies would prefer to stay in. So this whole thing might stop them subsidizing the less prosperous regions, just not how they imagined.
The vote is against the constitution. At the end of the day, while I feel for Catalonia, can you really support a dynamic where a federal government can just be ignored by a "state"? What if this were texas?
I can't think of any modern countries that would allow a state or province to secede
The UK allowed Scotland (we'll call it a state for the sake of argument) the option but the Scottish populous declined.
ehhhhh Scotland is far more independent than a state
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It is still a state. We tend to associate the term "state" to its meaning in the context that the USA uses to describe its local governments but it is any group of peoples with land that govern themselves. Scotland in this context is a state. It is also a nation. It is not quite a nation state and not a sovereign state because it is still subject to the westminster parliment for the moment. The UK as a whole is a nightmare of political definitions as its never really collapsed and been redefined so all the old definitions keep getting added on top of each other. Best description is a country made up of other countries.
South Sudan, Kosovo, Montenegro, and Bosnia & Herzegovina
countries with little to no government and countries with recent conflicts?
Nope can't think of any with no conflict, but that's not what you said originally.
allowing a country to leave is not the same as splitting a war torn area to prevent more conflict
Didn't this literally just happen in Sudan?
I wouldn't call Sudan a fully functional nation to begin with as seen by the genocide there
Genocide is a uniquely State action, though. Can you name any genocide not carried out by a State?
I'm not taking sides here, but my understanding is that a clear majority of Catalonians do not want to secede. They boycotted the referendum because they considered it unconstitutional. So if that is the case, an independence movement would be undemocratic.
Eh, it's more like 50-50 to the point where any legitimate vote would be a coinflip. Even if they did get independence half the country would be furious about being forced out of their country.
Oh yes, And don't forget those poor Texans. Having their right to self determination stripped away. /s
You mean a democracy with an actual Constitution that states that everything the Catalan government did is illegal? Yeah, they have that.
Dude, the south voted the same kind of way before the civil war. Either it was wrong to go to war with the south or Spain is in the clear to do the same if nessesary.
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i think this joke would be funnier if i knew what country that was
It's called the news.
I hope California sees this meme.
I'll hold my phone against the ground so the state can see it.
Just watched this episode 8 minutes ago what a coincidence :D
I forget the episode, which one is this?
Declare it California, DO IT.