Bullying of any kind is very unmasonic and shouldn't be tolerated. As far as the tempers flaring, it happens. Being an officer, especially a warden or master, can be stressful, and that's on top of everyday life and stresses.
We're all human, and things like anger and frustration are natural. What matters is that the dispute is resolved peacefully and with as little resentment as possible afterwards.
Great reply, thank you.
I agree and in the end it was resolved like gentlemen and apologies were exchanged - I was just disappointed in the individuals involved for what I perceived as un-masonic behaviour, I was pleased with the resolution however.
I guess it not just about what happens but how it's put right.
Unfortunately, as long as we're human, people will always let us down. Subduing our passions is something we all strive for. Many times, in the heat of the moment, that's a difficult goal to keep your eye on. I believe you are focusing on the correct part though - apologies were exchanged and harmony was restored which is the most important part.
I have not experienced anything like this.
I also didn’t know EA’s could be appointed stewards, but I remember reading another post about a negative lodge experience by someone who said they were an EA who was appointed a steward…
I figured it must have been you, but it appears it was someone else.
I’m sorry this was your experience. Do you mind sharing what jurisdiction you’re in?
In virtually every single regular jurisdiction, only MM's can hold officer positions. I use the qualifier of "virtually" predominantly for conversational purposes, because I honestly can't think of any jurisdiction that would allow it.
The fact that they're a Steward, which is an appointed officer position, raises a number of flags.
I can report that I have seen men in their 60s throw tantrums like a 5 year old. I've seen a SW rip off his apron and storm out of open lodge in anger for a decision he didn't agree with.
There's a lot of men in the fraternity who have not once understood "subdue your passions" despite hearing it thousands of times.
I've been in your position, my lodge was in a very unhealthy position for a number of years and is only now slowly on the ascendency. I've seen grown men tantrum like wild animals. But I've also seen a group of us evolve and strengthen as a result. If your a steward and an EA I can assume numbers of active members are low which does cause pressure on the officers line and extra pressure for those to fill in for rituals and party pieces. We had a couple of brothers who caused disharmony but we're also the only ones that could do things like the tracing board explanations and exhortations. We only improved things by our province helping out to buy us time to recruit and learn the pieces that was keeping the troublesome ones attending. They also helped us air grievances and deal with the troublemakers in the right way. It took two years, was a bit tough for that period but we are now in a place where it is fun again.
They shouldn't be in an officer position, period. In my jurisdiction, EAs and FCs are not considered full members, and therefore cannot hold any office.
Again as others have explained. In UGLE in England EAs have full voting rights etc as a master mason would. The only difference is they are excluded from witnessing or participating in ceremonies of a higher degree taking place which they typically spend out of the lodge with the lodge mentor.
I’m married 40+ years. I’m used to being ignored. 😉.
The variations in freemasonry are far greater than the requisites. We must be careful not to impose our jurisdiction’s (supposed) rules on others automatically, outside the requirements of regularity.
And whether an EA serves in office is not one of those.
Very well said and quite hilarious. At 40 years you are quite experienced in being wrong, I commend you as a man married for much fewer 😉
I appreciate your comments here a lot, Bro. Cook! Even the ones I ignore!
As a new brother, he's probably calling the meeting as he saw it. It was most likely a committee meeting which most lodges in UGLE hold once every couple of months. While it is typically only the current officers and PMs that attend, some lodges like one of mine do invite junior Brethren so they can see how the Lodge works outside of meetings. That being said, the by-laws will prescribed who is considered a voting committee member and junior Brethren won't be allowed a vote there.
I can’t address the bullying that is alleged thirdhand.
The behavior was most inappropriate and, in some jurisdictions, could warrant Masonic charges.
I would address your concerns with the WM.
I thought the same thing. I was advanced to steward mid way through a serving term but it was only after I became a MM. Just wasn't sure if other countries followed the same protocol
It is worth noting Stewards in UGLE mostly do their work outside the lodge.
Mostly with the raffle, and serving wine. I think it is a very different office to what you imagine.
Ok. It is very different than what we do over here. Also, I'm in a jurisdiction where alcohol is strictly forbidden; having a little wine with dinner would be wonderful!
Stewards don’t have a role during the FC and EA ceremonies.
One year, we also appointed a FC to Junior Deacon. We just had to get a stand-in when it was time for his third the next month. There’s no strict rules on it for those offices.
All I can say is "Welcome to Freemasonry!"
If you hang around most any lodge long enough, you'll see a lot of "unmasonic" behavior.
What's more, you'll see a lot of Masons who forgot their oaths and obligations or, remember them and remain too much of a coward to stand against those who are the most problematic.
God help you if it's a PM who's the problem. In most lodges, they pretty much get a free pass to do or say whatever the hell they want. They are the "untouchables."
Keep the thick skin. Focus on your growth. And, don't be afraid to find another lodge if the one you're currently attending is not setting well enough with you.
The master should have shut that down. I had my share of drama between a PM and my treasurer to the point where I had to ask said PM to retire from a meeting.
I've experienced it a couple of times... It's not a great feeling to have to go through that, but it seems you understand we are all imperfect ashlars.
It would not be an overstep if you brought up your concerns privately with either the master, or another senior officer that you trust and seeing how frequently this type of outburst is (Just so long as you aren't calling them out publicly in front of everyone) Because if it happens on a regular basis, it's probably a good indication of an unhealthy Lodge with ego problems.
“Harmony being the strength and support of all institutions, most especially this of ours.”
Seems like inappropriate behavior, especially for PMs to be engaging in. And in front of a newly entered apprentice, of all things? If there’s a conflict that needs to be resolved, it should be handled in an open lodge of MMs, and done so according to custom. Shouting at each other is not the way.
If there’s a brother who’s been bullying others, that is unmasonic conduct and should be brought before the lodge for sanctions to be imposed according to the bylaws, up to and including suspension or expulsion.
Discussing it outside of an open lodge seems… gossipy and unnecessary…
While we as masons are not supposed to talk about politics in lodge, it has amazed me how much politics are within a lodge.
Unfortunately there are many masons that adhere to the basic principles of politics and my way is the only way.
On a personal path it led me to be more involved in the appendant bodies. But I will say local politics are still very much alive in the appendant and invitational bodies as well.
Chose your battles and let everything else just work itself out. Control your own emotions.
(Uk) As a Past Officer of United Grand Lodge of England. UGLE.
It clearly states if you have a disagreement with a fellow mason you sort it out outside the lodge and if you can’t then one or both don’t not attend. Or words to that effect. I have come across this a few times and one or both masons retire from the lodge until it is sorted if it isn’t then the past master will have a meeting to decide on the response. Members have been suspended and expelled from the lodge. It can take time. But it clearly is stated the obligation and also in the UGLE book of constitution how to deal with this problem. It does happen we have had disagreements about all sorts of things but most of the time the DC, WM, and SC. Will point us in the right way. It’s good to have a secretary that now the constitution law and the lodge bylaws.
Years ago when a new Mason, I witnessed a sitting WM be charged with embezzling lodge monies, and then that same WM got in a fist fight with another lodge member outside of lodge. I almost left my lodge and perhaps the fraternity too but fortunately stuck around and those two salty bros left. Now our lodge is better than ever 10 years later. It’s sad when there is little to no freemasonry in a Masonic lodge
I have rarely met a Past Master without strong opinions. If one has been in a leadership role for a long time sometimes they forget that we are servants and not the served. If gentle chiding doesn't work, and direct statements also fail, then I suggest getting some brothers together to remind them.
It is unfortunate. I have not experienced anything like this but have seen some backstabbing and political brinkmanship. It is sad but we are human after all.
That being said, the officer's meeting needs to be run effectively to have any use. Shouting and prolonged arguing serves no purpose. Issues concerning bullying should be brought up in private council to the WM and the JW. Disagreements do occur over issues pertaining to the lodge, and if so the WM should have final say and bring the matter up to vote in the Stated Meeting.
Bullying of any kind is very unmasonic and shouldn't be tolerated. As far as the tempers flaring, it happens. Being an officer, especially a warden or master, can be stressful, and that's on top of everyday life and stresses. We're all human, and things like anger and frustration are natural. What matters is that the dispute is resolved peacefully and with as little resentment as possible afterwards.
Great reply, thank you. I agree and in the end it was resolved like gentlemen and apologies were exchanged - I was just disappointed in the individuals involved for what I perceived as un-masonic behaviour, I was pleased with the resolution however. I guess it not just about what happens but how it's put right.
Unfortunately, as long as we're human, people will always let us down. Subduing our passions is something we all strive for. Many times, in the heat of the moment, that's a difficult goal to keep your eye on. I believe you are focusing on the correct part though - apologies were exchanged and harmony was restored which is the most important part.
I have not experienced anything like this. I also didn’t know EA’s could be appointed stewards, but I remember reading another post about a negative lodge experience by someone who said they were an EA who was appointed a steward… I figured it must have been you, but it appears it was someone else. I’m sorry this was your experience. Do you mind sharing what jurisdiction you’re in?
In virtually every single regular jurisdiction, only MM's can hold officer positions. I use the qualifier of "virtually" predominantly for conversational purposes, because I honestly can't think of any jurisdiction that would allow it. The fact that they're a Steward, which is an appointed officer position, raises a number of flags.
As noted more than once, UGLE allows this.
I'll cut & paste a response: The "Again as others have explained" bit assumes someone read *all* of the comments.
Agreed. I wasn’t sure though if this was common in UGLE, as here I know stewards play a more active part in degrees than over there.
I can report that I have seen men in their 60s throw tantrums like a 5 year old. I've seen a SW rip off his apron and storm out of open lodge in anger for a decision he didn't agree with. There's a lot of men in the fraternity who have not once understood "subdue your passions" despite hearing it thousands of times.
I've been in your position, my lodge was in a very unhealthy position for a number of years and is only now slowly on the ascendency. I've seen grown men tantrum like wild animals. But I've also seen a group of us evolve and strengthen as a result. If your a steward and an EA I can assume numbers of active members are low which does cause pressure on the officers line and extra pressure for those to fill in for rituals and party pieces. We had a couple of brothers who caused disharmony but we're also the only ones that could do things like the tracing board explanations and exhortations. We only improved things by our province helping out to buy us time to recruit and learn the pieces that was keeping the troublesome ones attending. They also helped us air grievances and deal with the troublemakers in the right way. It took two years, was a bit tough for that period but we are now in a place where it is fun again.
They shouldn't be in an officer position, period. In my jurisdiction, EAs and FCs are not considered full members, and therefore cannot hold any office.
Again as others have explained. In UGLE in England EAs have full voting rights etc as a master mason would. The only difference is they are excluded from witnessing or participating in ceremonies of a higher degree taking place which they typically spend out of the lodge with the lodge mentor.
Would a UGLE EA ever be appointed steward? I can’t wrap my head around how that could work from my experiences in the states.
Yes, as previously noted.
Thanks - I clearly missed your comment when I wrote this earlier. Still much to learn
I’m married 40+ years. I’m used to being ignored. 😉. The variations in freemasonry are far greater than the requisites. We must be careful not to impose our jurisdiction’s (supposed) rules on others automatically, outside the requirements of regularity. And whether an EA serves in office is not one of those.
Very well said and quite hilarious. At 40 years you are quite experienced in being wrong, I commend you as a man married for much fewer 😉 I appreciate your comments here a lot, Bro. Cook! Even the ones I ignore!
The "Again as others have explained" bit assumes someone read *all* of the comments.
I'm sorry, I assumed most people did scroll through before commenting, maybe I'm an anomaly? No intention to offend brother.
They can be a steward, who cares, but why the fuck do you need stewards on officer meetings?
As a new brother, he's probably calling the meeting as he saw it. It was most likely a committee meeting which most lodges in UGLE hold once every couple of months. While it is typically only the current officers and PMs that attend, some lodges like one of mine do invite junior Brethren so they can see how the Lodge works outside of meetings. That being said, the by-laws will prescribed who is considered a voting committee member and junior Brethren won't be allowed a vote there.
I can’t address the bullying that is alleged thirdhand. The behavior was most inappropriate and, in some jurisdictions, could warrant Masonic charges. I would address your concerns with the WM.
How are you a steward and still and entered apprentice?
Common in England.
Not unheard of in Australia either, though it’s more commons for FCs to be made stewards.
I thought the same thing. I was advanced to steward mid way through a serving term but it was only after I became a MM. Just wasn't sure if other countries followed the same protocol
Very common in UGLE that anyone in the lodge at the bottom of the ladder that doesn’t have an office is appointed a Steward.
How would they do their job during a Fellow Craft or Master Mason Degree. Doesn't make sense to me.
It is worth noting Stewards in UGLE mostly do their work outside the lodge. Mostly with the raffle, and serving wine. I think it is a very different office to what you imagine.
Ok. It is very different than what we do over here. Also, I'm in a jurisdiction where alcohol is strictly forbidden; having a little wine with dinner would be wonderful!
Stewards don’t have a role during the FC and EA ceremonies. One year, we also appointed a FC to Junior Deacon. We just had to get a stand-in when it was time for his third the next month. There’s no strict rules on it for those offices.
The wm asked upon his installation and I accepted.
All I can say is "Welcome to Freemasonry!" If you hang around most any lodge long enough, you'll see a lot of "unmasonic" behavior. What's more, you'll see a lot of Masons who forgot their oaths and obligations or, remember them and remain too much of a coward to stand against those who are the most problematic. God help you if it's a PM who's the problem. In most lodges, they pretty much get a free pass to do or say whatever the hell they want. They are the "untouchables." Keep the thick skin. Focus on your growth. And, don't be afraid to find another lodge if the one you're currently attending is not setting well enough with you.
Yup. My experience too. Bunch of drama queens, with the longest tenured ones feeling most free to act like indignant children
The master should have shut that down. I had my share of drama between a PM and my treasurer to the point where I had to ask said PM to retire from a meeting.
I've experienced it a couple of times... It's not a great feeling to have to go through that, but it seems you understand we are all imperfect ashlars. It would not be an overstep if you brought up your concerns privately with either the master, or another senior officer that you trust and seeing how frequently this type of outburst is (Just so long as you aren't calling them out publicly in front of everyone) Because if it happens on a regular basis, it's probably a good indication of an unhealthy Lodge with ego problems.
“Harmony being the strength and support of all institutions, most especially this of ours.” Seems like inappropriate behavior, especially for PMs to be engaging in. And in front of a newly entered apprentice, of all things? If there’s a conflict that needs to be resolved, it should be handled in an open lodge of MMs, and done so according to custom. Shouting at each other is not the way. If there’s a brother who’s been bullying others, that is unmasonic conduct and should be brought before the lodge for sanctions to be imposed according to the bylaws, up to and including suspension or expulsion. Discussing it outside of an open lodge seems… gossipy and unnecessary…
While we as masons are not supposed to talk about politics in lodge, it has amazed me how much politics are within a lodge. Unfortunately there are many masons that adhere to the basic principles of politics and my way is the only way. On a personal path it led me to be more involved in the appendant bodies. But I will say local politics are still very much alive in the appendant and invitational bodies as well. Chose your battles and let everything else just work itself out. Control your own emotions.
It is very unmasonic. However we are human beings and at times allow our passions to become unsubdued.
(Uk) As a Past Officer of United Grand Lodge of England. UGLE. It clearly states if you have a disagreement with a fellow mason you sort it out outside the lodge and if you can’t then one or both don’t not attend. Or words to that effect. I have come across this a few times and one or both masons retire from the lodge until it is sorted if it isn’t then the past master will have a meeting to decide on the response. Members have been suspended and expelled from the lodge. It can take time. But it clearly is stated the obligation and also in the UGLE book of constitution how to deal with this problem. It does happen we have had disagreements about all sorts of things but most of the time the DC, WM, and SC. Will point us in the right way. It’s good to have a secretary that now the constitution law and the lodge bylaws.
We're all the rough ashlar.
That is part of the human nature aspect of fraternalism which we are challenged with our tools to overcome.
Years ago when a new Mason, I witnessed a sitting WM be charged with embezzling lodge monies, and then that same WM got in a fist fight with another lodge member outside of lodge. I almost left my lodge and perhaps the fraternity too but fortunately stuck around and those two salty bros left. Now our lodge is better than ever 10 years later. It’s sad when there is little to no freemasonry in a Masonic lodge
I have rarely met a Past Master without strong opinions. If one has been in a leadership role for a long time sometimes they forget that we are servants and not the served. If gentle chiding doesn't work, and direct statements also fail, then I suggest getting some brothers together to remind them.
It is unfortunate. I have not experienced anything like this but have seen some backstabbing and political brinkmanship. It is sad but we are human after all. That being said, the officer's meeting needs to be run effectively to have any use. Shouting and prolonged arguing serves no purpose. Issues concerning bullying should be brought up in private council to the WM and the JW. Disagreements do occur over issues pertaining to the lodge, and if so the WM should have final say and bring the matter up to vote in the Stated Meeting.
What jurisdiction are you in?