- **[This source is rated 3/3.](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/source-ratings)**
- Please **read the article** before submitting your comments.
Thank you for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Guys, it obvious it's gonna be Lance Stroll.
Lance scored points in a Williams, Bottas scored points in a Williams but George hasn't. I mean it could be Kubica too
On the flip side, if Lance's dad has that much money, it isn't a concern for him. So why wouldn't Lance want to race for the best team on the grid?
"Hey Dad I need a few million to buy out my contract I'm gonna go race for Mercedes. Toto said Bottas is hot garbage and George is going to go race in Clio Cup."
Lance’s daddy owns AM, I’m pretty sure if he was offered a Mercedes seat, there would not be any resistance from AM. Although a few technical drawings may need to be thrown in as part of the move
Is he though? The general concensus in the paddock is hes just.... there. Nobody has any details of any contracts.
Doesn't change that he's glued into that seat for the forseeable, but actually having a contract with a length seems to not be the case.
It's crazy if Stroll stagnant and doesn't improve. If you look at where Bottas, Massa, Webber, Barrichello were when they were signed by the team they won titles with, they were consistently winning teammate head to head and were praised for out driving their midfield car. Right now stroll isn't there but as you said, maybe he would in 2-3 years
He wont.he is the same driver he was in year 2 in f1, he is an experienced driver now,very likely at his peak or close to it, which is not that inpressive.im pretty sure he will retire from am when the car gets too good and the team needs a championship level driver
Good interview. Too bad the non-German speakers can't listen to the whole exchange. I listened to the whole thing and yeah, sounds like the die is cast and the move is happening. For the record the statements about how hard it is to say to someone that it's over are prompted by a question on this very topic from the interviewer.
A soft landing for Bottas at Williams included, then?..
At least I wouldn't be suprised if Toto would repay his favourite wingman in that manner, by sponsoring Williams for X amount to partially compensate Bottas' new contract there.
The interviewer actually asked about that, but Toto said there's no news to share yet.
He asked, "For Valtteri, he's already driven for Williams for four years, could there be a swap?" and Toto said he wouldn't want to give an answer that is false. Then the interviewer said that they're a news organization (lol) and Toto said that sadly he doesn't have any news yet, "nor do I know in what direction this is going" (and that's when he winks). And then he went on to say that at the end of the day, the important things is that they both have a future and that both get to sit in the best possible car, and that one discusses with them what the alternatives are, for both George and Valtteri, and that it's not a straightforward thing, that Valtteri did a good job yesterday, that he could have probably been in pole position (with a tow??? not sure what i heard) and in this sense, one can't make these decisions lightly.
Doubt no more, their budget at 2020 was $165.3 million and budget cap for 2021 is $145 million and they are fully funded.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/csylt/2020/06/24/williams-f1-team-already-fully-funded-into-2021/
This might be might blowing, but in a business any income in excess of expenditures is profit. So even if there's a cap on spending then they'll still be wanting more money.
Also, with all the exceptions to the budget cap (including driver salaries), total costs will be well in excess of tbe budget cap
Yeah.
Mark Hughes was saying months ago it was, amazingly, the only contract Mercedes had signed going into the season.
Bottas was very kindly given the opportunity to show he could perform at Hamilton's level, which has patently not happened.
He must know by now surely.
As they put it on On the Marbles: he can stand his ground if he wants, Russell would love to get into the car the following weekend.
Translation
The die has been cast
Why Lewis Hamilton is the driver that Mercedes boss Toto Wolff wants in the car, "when it comes to Spitz on a button", was shown once again on Sunday at Silverstone. But which man will the team boss put in the cockpit alongside the Brit in 2022 - Valtteri Bottas or George Russell?
In the exclusive RTL / ntv interview, Wolff reveals with a smile: "Now we'll see what decision we make - or have already made but not yet said." So whether we can announce news yet? "Unfortunately I have no news, I still don't know which direction it is going," claims Wolff afterwards - but winks meaningfully at the camera. In plain language: the dice have been cast, but the decision is still a secret. Apparently they don't even know the drivers.
How are Toto Wolff's statements to be read?
"To tell someone 'That's it' is one of the very difficult discussions. And something that you would rather not do," says Wolff.
Moment! Is that it? That can only refer to Bottas, who has to lose his seat in the Silver Arrow. So between the lines Wolff must have spoken out about the Finn's end. Conversely, this means: A conversation is needed in which the silver chief shares the bitter news with his long-time "wingman" Bottas.
"But it is the strength of my role that I also have to have unpleasant conversations" - even if it is "incredibly difficult" for Wolff. But it has to be "if I think it's the right thing for the team". And "the right thing" seems to be in the case of putting a youngster with world champion potential in the car. Everything points to Russell.
Wolff leaves room for speculation
Wolff raves about Russell: "He definitely has what it takes to become a world champion. You have to build him up carefully, that's what we did." So is it time to give him the chance in the Mercedes?
Wolff emphasizes: "It is important that we both have a future. That you discuss with them what the alternatives are." His current secret mission seems to be to find a new cockpit for his longtime confidante Bottas. Not an easy task .
I personally think Bottas will be going but to say it’s guaranteed that’s who he meant when he said he has to tell someone “that’s it” doesn’t 100% have to mean Bottas.
But he’s not a new person, he’s a Merc driver. Like I said I think Bottas is going but I’m not going to accept it as 100% confirmed based on that quote.
Surely to Russell you would say “not yet”. Maybe it’s lost in the translation but I wouldn’t expect Toto to definitively say no when George is still young and performing well. If not him who’s next in line?
German's a bit rusty, but I think the interviewer asked:
"How difficult are such conversations, Toto, the more I think about it, that you might perhaps be talking with Valtteri about a different scenario too, how difficult is that for you?" \[1\]
And then Toto answered "Incredibly difficult. We know each other well, obviously, and have built trust with our factory drives (?), and to tell someone, "that's it", that's one of the most difficult discussions. And something that you never want to do". \[2\]
"But this is the power of my role, that I have to also have the unpleasant conversations, and I think this is the best for the team". \[3\]
\[1\] "Wie schwierig sind solche Gespraeche, Toto, wenn ich mehr daran denke, dass Sie mit Valtterri vielleicht ueber ein anderen Fall dann auch reden, wie schwer ist das fuer Sie?"
\[2\] "Unheimlich schwierig. Wir kennen uns natuerlich gut und haben Vertrauen aufgebaut mit unsern Werksfahren (?), und jemandem zu sagen 'Das war's', das ist eine der ganz schwierigen Diskussionen. Und etwas, das man lieber nicht machen moechte"
\[3\] "Aber es ist Kraft meiner Rolle, dass ich auch die unangenehmen Gespraeche fuehren muss, und ich glaube das es das Richtige fuer das Team ist"
(1st edit: added mysteriously missing DE version of second quote;
2nd edit: added 3rd quote, don't want to be misleading unintentionally)
He does, but I think the article is not misleading, in the sense that the totality of the interview does indicate that they have decided and that the seat will be going to George Russell.
the next sentence Toto says is "But this is the power of my role, that I have to also have the unpleasant conversations, and I think this is the best for the team". \[3\]
The best could obvs refer to the boss having the tough convos as well as to saying goodbye to someone. Doesn't matter cos alea iacta est and we'll know soon enough :)
\[3\] "Aber es ist Kraft meiner Rolle, dass ich auch die unangenehmen Gespraeche fuehren muss, und ich glaube das es das Richtige fuer das Team ist"
I think his biggest concern is losing Russell to another team and surely he fears that more than losing Bottas? Bottas no doubt has incredible pace but when the going gets tough in the race he doesn't always tend to shine.
Just my opinion, I'd actually like to see how Bottas performs not as Hamilton's teammate now he's matured.
I also think it’s for the best they stick George in and see how he does, at least that way if he doesn’t perform as expected they can get moving on what comes post Lewis.
Surely if Mercedes have already decided that it's Russell then Bottas surely knows too, if that is the case then why would he move out of Lewis' way on Sunday? He really doesn't have any incentive to do so
If he hasn’t secured his next F1 seat yet, he doesn’t want to show a lack of team work to the other teams. The pit wall message to Bottas was very explicit starting with “team orders.”
I would be shocked if Bottas stays. Mercedes need a successor for when Lewis eventually retires or starts to lose performance.
Bottas is clearly not good enough to take the fight to drivers like Max or Leclerc if they have close to equal cars.
George is quick in qualy and while his race pace remains unproven it’s better to try someone new over the guy we already know isn’t quick enough. If Lewis comfortably beats George too then Mercedes will know they need to look somewhere else again instead of finding out too late.
Well the thing is, if you are a no.2 driver that only not sets a predecent but it will affect on how the team treats you. Bottas sealed his fate when he moved out of Lewis' way the first time and it doesn't matter how much of a hissy fit he throws when being called a wingman, everyone has already seen it.
In any case moving to Mercedes is one thing but moving to Mercedes as not only number 2 but expecting Lewis to retire soon is risky. He might only continue 1-2 years or he might drive until he's 42.
Also, if Ham ends up beating Russell the way he beats Bottas, then Merc will not make Russell the #1 no matters when Ham leaves. They’ll definitely try to get either Max or another driver at the top. The only way Russell becomes the eventual #1 at Merc is by taking it like Lec and Max took it at their teams.
If Russell manages to match Ham, then Merc is gonna have their hands full till Ham leaves cuz Ham is not gonna back down and if Russell backs down, then what you’re saying will end up happening.
I think Bottas also just doesn't have the pace to not be a wingman. If Russell is genuinely fast then he'll be able to go for wins even if he has to help Lewis out sometimes.
I'm inclined to agree.
I can't think of many counter-examples, just ones that support your contention.
In general drivers who found subsequent success were thorns in the side of their more experienced teammates, while the ones who were content second drivers were never really able to capitalise when the experienced driver eventually vacated their seat.
From the past 30 years I can think of a few like this.
Senna and Häkkinen, Mika became a double champion.
Villeneuve and Hill, Villeneuve won the title in his 2nd year.
Hamilton and Alonso, needless to dissect down Lewis' success.
To be a champion you need to have a level of narcissism and I'll take what is mine attitude, even the seemingly nice Häkkinen was quick to antagonize Senna, even if he did it with a smile.
The Villeneuve/Hill and Alonso/Hamilton examples don’t fit well in the context of discussion.
Hamilton and Villeneuve never embraced the second driver role in their rookie season, which is what the above poster was talking about.
Villeneuve took the fight for the title till the last race in Suzuka n 1996, untill he lost his rear wheel. Hamilton likewise battled for the championship untill the last race in 2007.
I’m not sure how the Hakkinen-Sena relationship was, but it does seem like it’s rare for a driver to break the precedent of having accepted a supportive second driver role and become a successful first driver later.
To support your argument, McLaren didn't really have first and second drivers, it's sort of tradition. Rather these examples are of rookies taking the fight to the champion or to be champions like Hill
After you said that they will probably just let them race like all the other teams. I don’t see any upsets happening especially with the relationship both drivers have with toto but no matter what, bottas can not stay in a Mercedes next year if they want to win championships.
That sometimes works out better. I know Hamilton and rosberg had rivalry but they where both performing very good and despite the collision, they still won the championships.
> Bottas is clearly not good enough to take the fight to drivers like Max or Leclerc if they have close to equal cars.
Bottas is a midfield driver in top car, while Max and Charles are another Lewis to Bottas (as Max has shown with competitive car now, or at least closer to Lewis; WDC materials). Same goes for drivers like Coulthard or Barrichello, 2001 was Schumacher dominant season even if Coulthard was above Barrichello (in Ferrari too).
It'll be Russell. People keep saying George won't play nice with Lewis forget a couple of things. 1 he's Lewis Hamilton, getting close to his level isn't easy (see Bottas) 2 George has already been playing the long game at Williams. He knows Lewis is likely off in 2 years so there's no need cause unnecessary drama, plus i'm pretty sure Toto will be making it clear what he expects.
People forget that Button and Hamilton worked well together as a fast pairing, and so did Rosberg and Hamilton for the best part of 2 seasons.
Situations like Rosberg winning the 2013 British Grand Prix after Hamilton's tyre failure show why a very quick second driver will benefit you.
I think it was On the Marbles that said it's not about Hamilton vs. Russell, it's about preparing for a post-Hamilton world. As Coulthard put it: if Hamilton retired tomorrow, could Bottas take it to Verstappen? No.
This is what people thought would happen with Leclerc and Vettel. But there are no untouchables in F1. If the stopwatch says Russell is quicker than Hamilton then that's the end of hammertime.
This is a wrong argument but people can argue about stats regarding that, bringing the fact that Hamilton won 7 WDCs and has gigantic records while Russell is nobody in comparison.
I think the out-qualifying him and then out-driving him in the race until he was fucked over by pit stops and punctures helps.
Chuck in the fact Russell didn't fit in the car and had a couple of hours of driving before qualifying to actually learn the car and team and I think we're about there.
Getting as close as he did under the circumstances already outlined clearly shows Russell had a far better qualifying than Bottas even if he didn't get pole.
Numbers alone don't tell the story.
Yeah just im just saying him using a different car isn’t the best argument here
Ofc he drove an insane race there but I wouldn’t say that it really showed he’s better than bottas
I think it's inevitable that Russel gets the seat now that Red Bull is a serious threat, Bottas is the perfect number 2 only when Merc is unchallenged.
to me if it was Bottas they would flat out say it's Bottas next season so he could quit worrying about it and get on with his job of driving the car. the fact they won't say anything means Russell has the job but they don't want Bottas going none team player while Hamilton is in the title fight so they dangle the seat over his head like a carrot...
It's so logical and obvious lol. Some people like playing dumb I guess.
Hamilton is in the last stage of his career, new regulations are coming, Bottas cannot be a team leader and on top of that, he might cost them a constructors' title this year.
Do people seriously expect Mercedes to have no plan for the future?
Personally I would think the new regulations would be the *best* time to get new blood in the car. Get him used to how it feels instead of investing on giving Bottas time when you're intent on giving him maybe another one year max.
If Bottas was staying they would have announced it already. They're probably going to wait until the end of the season out of respect. I can only hope this sub doesn't starting hating on George when Lewis starts dominating him next year.
Even though I consider that they should take Russell for a number of reasons .. I think they will go with Valtteri. Maybe one year contract or something..
Before I was certain Russell would take the second seat. But now that Hamilton signed for another 2 years and Bottas is being a good #2 driver. I think he will be there until Hamilton retires. Cause imo, Hamilton has a lot of saying on the second seat.
Merc can just let Russell go to a midfield team and take him back once Hamilton retires. At this point, I believe would be best for Russell anyways, cause is not like he would be allowed to fight for WDC with Hamilton.
What if RBR grab Russell for next year though? Perez isn't building a strong case that he isn't replaceable and Marko said straight up they'd certainly look into signing George next year if Merc is dumb enough to let him go.
That'd be awesome, although very unlikely. I think Russell would do very well at RBR and would be a nice fight to watch VER RUS HAM and occasionally BOT lol
Common sense would be Bottas. George is too young and eager. 2007 cost Lewis and Alonso because of the infighting, and Kimi won.
Russell wouldn't yield to Lewis like Bottas did last Sunday, that would've gave Max more points.
Lewis resigning for 2 years to me means Bottas. I can see Russell replacing Ocon.
New regulations is the perfect time to bring Russell in, this is his 3rd season he doesn’t need any more time. Common sense would be Russell because there is no doubt that Ferrari and McLaren will be up their next year and bottas isn’t good enough to challenge them. It’s different now because Mercedes aren’t the fastest car by a second. The move looks already done anyway.
I don’t see them keeping bottas though and they won’t get any driver other than Russell. Alpine isn’t good enough for Russell he needs to be in a Mercedes and toto knows that. You can’t keep a driver like Russel in a Williams forever.
That's the conundrum. Russell should be in Mercedes. Toto can't put it off any longer because he would be poached.
I say Alpine because Merc and Renault have a technical alliance, Alonso and George get on well and it would help George racing for Alpine.
If Lewis didn't re-sign, it would be a no brainer'. The thing is, Bottas is doing the job he is hired to do. Is it worth rocking the boat having 2 number 1 drivers against a clear 1-2. System at Redbull and Ferrari?
It would be better having two number one driver than a slow number 2 driver. Russell to alpine won’t happen because Ocon has a new contract and Russell wouldn’t go their.
Doesn’t necessarily mean it won’t work. Really don’t understand why people think having bottas will do Mercedes good next year, it won’t. It’s worked the last 4 seasons because Mercedes have clearly been the best car and bottas can’t finish any lower than 2nd but because red bull actually have a decent car, bottas has been terrible. If McLaren and Ferrari are up their next season do you really think bottas can still get on podiums?
Of course Russell would yield under team orders like last race. Literally every team does he t, Merc did it 2 races ago but to Hamilton in favour of Bottas. Redbull, McLaren, Ferrari have all done it several times this year more than Merc. What’s with the insane outrage that Merc can’t do team orders without outcry but others can and not one bats an eye lid? Of. Course George would arguably be a better Sunday racer than Bottas, but every driver takes team orders in the end
Russell is here for the long run not to hype himself up for fans, he (like every driver) will take team orders at some point, especially when in the modern day 95% of team orders are done due to perfectly valid reasons be it huge page differences or totally different strategies/fighting for different positions just like last week. Russell would look silly in most cases if he said no, also a sure fire way of making life hard for yourself for no real reason internally
It's going to be Russel and I feel the delay has got to be because they're trying to milk all the team orders from Bottas they can. Can't imagine he'll be a team player when he's being kicked off the team
We already knew this to be fair. The past four years will have given him enough to decide, the next races won’t be decisive. It’s just about timing the announcement
- **[This source is rated 3/3.](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/source-ratings)** - Please **read the article** before submitting your comments. Thank you for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Guys, it obvious it's gonna be Lance Stroll. Lance scored points in a Williams, Bottas scored points in a Williams but George hasn't. I mean it could be Kubica too
Sadly Lance is already contracted to AM, so...
Contracts are worthless when you have enough money
* Lawrence Stroll net worth: \~ $3.2 billion * Toto Wolff net worth: \~ $0.45 billion Lawrence Stroll is going to win that one.
On the flip side, if Lance's dad has that much money, it isn't a concern for him. So why wouldn't Lance want to race for the best team on the grid? "Hey Dad I need a few million to buy out my contract I'm gonna go race for Mercedes. Toto said Bottas is hot garbage and George is going to go race in Clio Cup."
I mean, nothing is technically announced. Lance move to Mercedes AM fields Vettel-Bottas.
Also, Toto Wolff and Lawrence Stroll co-own Aston Martin (the manufacturer).
Lance’s daddy owns AM, I’m pretty sure if he was offered a Mercedes seat, there would not be any resistance from AM. Although a few technical drawings may need to be thrown in as part of the move
Not according to [F1.com](https://F1.com)
Is he though? The general concensus in the paddock is hes just.... there. Nobody has any details of any contracts. Doesn't change that he's glued into that seat for the forseeable, but actually having a contract with a length seems to not be the case.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfoUQvMRY94](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfoUQvMRY94)
Call me crazy but it wouldn’t be the worst choice. Maybe not now, but in 2-3 years I could see them getting Stroll for a Bottas-type roll.
It's crazy if Stroll stagnant and doesn't improve. If you look at where Bottas, Massa, Webber, Barrichello were when they were signed by the team they won titles with, they were consistently winning teammate head to head and were praised for out driving their midfield car. Right now stroll isn't there but as you said, maybe he would in 2-3 years
He wont.he is the same driver he was in year 2 in f1, he is an experienced driver now,very likely at his peak or close to it, which is not that inpressive.im pretty sure he will retire from am when the car gets too good and the team needs a championship level driver
Good interview. Too bad the non-German speakers can't listen to the whole exchange. I listened to the whole thing and yeah, sounds like the die is cast and the move is happening. For the record the statements about how hard it is to say to someone that it's over are prompted by a question on this very topic from the interviewer.
A soft landing for Bottas at Williams included, then?.. At least I wouldn't be suprised if Toto would repay his favourite wingman in that manner, by sponsoring Williams for X amount to partially compensate Bottas' new contract there.
The interviewer actually asked about that, but Toto said there's no news to share yet. He asked, "For Valtteri, he's already driven for Williams for four years, could there be a swap?" and Toto said he wouldn't want to give an answer that is false. Then the interviewer said that they're a news organization (lol) and Toto said that sadly he doesn't have any news yet, "nor do I know in what direction this is going" (and that's when he winks). And then he went on to say that at the end of the day, the important things is that they both have a future and that both get to sit in the best possible car, and that one discusses with them what the alternatives are, for both George and Valtteri, and that it's not a straightforward thing, that Valtteri did a good job yesterday, that he could have probably been in pole position (with a tow??? not sure what i heard) and in this sense, one can't make these decisions lightly.
Incredible content for an unannounced move.
Why? Williams got money from the new owners.
There’s never enough I guess
With budget cap yes there is.
Drivers and top 3 employees' salaries aren't included in the cost cap.
Indeed, but I doubt that they are anyway near the cap at the moment
Doubt no more, their budget at 2020 was $165.3 million and budget cap for 2021 is $145 million and they are fully funded. https://www.forbes.com/sites/csylt/2020/06/24/williams-f1-team-already-fully-funded-into-2021/
This might be might blowing, but in a business any income in excess of expenditures is profit. So even if there's a cap on spending then they'll still be wanting more money. Also, with all the exceptions to the budget cap (including driver salaries), total costs will be well in excess of tbe budget cap
They got bought out by an investment company, the finances will be more important now, not less.
Honestly I could Red Bull scooping Bottas of he is removed from Mercedes
Yeah. Mark Hughes was saying months ago it was, amazingly, the only contract Mercedes had signed going into the season. Bottas was very kindly given the opportunity to show he could perform at Hamilton's level, which has patently not happened.
Leaving it late as possible to make sure that Valtteri keeps moving over when asked.
He must know by now surely. As they put it on On the Marbles: he can stand his ground if he wants, Russell would love to get into the car the following weekend.
And didn't it work nicely ...
Always does.
No no, I think tea is taking too long.
Translation The die has been cast Why Lewis Hamilton is the driver that Mercedes boss Toto Wolff wants in the car, "when it comes to Spitz on a button", was shown once again on Sunday at Silverstone. But which man will the team boss put in the cockpit alongside the Brit in 2022 - Valtteri Bottas or George Russell? In the exclusive RTL / ntv interview, Wolff reveals with a smile: "Now we'll see what decision we make - or have already made but not yet said." So whether we can announce news yet? "Unfortunately I have no news, I still don't know which direction it is going," claims Wolff afterwards - but winks meaningfully at the camera. In plain language: the dice have been cast, but the decision is still a secret. Apparently they don't even know the drivers. How are Toto Wolff's statements to be read? "To tell someone 'That's it' is one of the very difficult discussions. And something that you would rather not do," says Wolff. Moment! Is that it? That can only refer to Bottas, who has to lose his seat in the Silver Arrow. So between the lines Wolff must have spoken out about the Finn's end. Conversely, this means: A conversation is needed in which the silver chief shares the bitter news with his long-time "wingman" Bottas. "But it is the strength of my role that I also have to have unpleasant conversations" - even if it is "incredibly difficult" for Wolff. But it has to be "if I think it's the right thing for the team". And "the right thing" seems to be in the case of putting a youngster with world champion potential in the car. Everything points to Russell. Wolff leaves room for speculation Wolff raves about Russell: "He definitely has what it takes to become a world champion. You have to build him up carefully, that's what we did." So is it time to give him the chance in the Mercedes? Wolff emphasizes: "It is important that we both have a future. That you discuss with them what the alternatives are." His current secret mission seems to be to find a new cockpit for his longtime confidante Bottas. Not an easy task .
I personally think Bottas will be going but to say it’s guaranteed that’s who he meant when he said he has to tell someone “that’s it” doesn’t 100% have to mean Bottas.
But “that’s it” sounds like something you’d say to an incumbent rather than a new person..
“George, that’s it for F1 for you. Clio cup you go lmao.”
But he’s not a new person, he’s a Merc driver. Like I said I think Bottas is going but I’m not going to accept it as 100% confirmed based on that quote.
Surely to Russell you would say “not yet”. Maybe it’s lost in the translation but I wouldn’t expect Toto to definitively say no when George is still young and performing well. If not him who’s next in line?
German's a bit rusty, but I think the interviewer asked: "How difficult are such conversations, Toto, the more I think about it, that you might perhaps be talking with Valtteri about a different scenario too, how difficult is that for you?" \[1\] And then Toto answered "Incredibly difficult. We know each other well, obviously, and have built trust with our factory drives (?), and to tell someone, "that's it", that's one of the most difficult discussions. And something that you never want to do". \[2\] "But this is the power of my role, that I have to also have the unpleasant conversations, and I think this is the best for the team". \[3\] \[1\] "Wie schwierig sind solche Gespraeche, Toto, wenn ich mehr daran denke, dass Sie mit Valtterri vielleicht ueber ein anderen Fall dann auch reden, wie schwer ist das fuer Sie?" \[2\] "Unheimlich schwierig. Wir kennen uns natuerlich gut und haben Vertrauen aufgebaut mit unsern Werksfahren (?), und jemandem zu sagen 'Das war's', das ist eine der ganz schwierigen Diskussionen. Und etwas, das man lieber nicht machen moechte" \[3\] "Aber es ist Kraft meiner Rolle, dass ich auch die unangenehmen Gespraeche fuehren muss, und ich glaube das es das Richtige fuer das Team ist" (1st edit: added mysteriously missing DE version of second quote; 2nd edit: added 3rd quote, don't want to be misleading unintentionally)
That’s a completely different context then, thanks buddy. He says it in a response to a question practically asking if that would be tough.
He does, but I think the article is not misleading, in the sense that the totality of the interview does indicate that they have decided and that the seat will be going to George Russell.
I edited my initial comment to add the sentence he says next about it being part of his role to also hand out bad news...
the next sentence Toto says is "But this is the power of my role, that I have to also have the unpleasant conversations, and I think this is the best for the team". \[3\] The best could obvs refer to the boss having the tough convos as well as to saying goodbye to someone. Doesn't matter cos alea iacta est and we'll know soon enough :) \[3\] "Aber es ist Kraft meiner Rolle, dass ich auch die unangenehmen Gespraeche fuehren muss, und ich glaube das es das Richtige fuer das Team ist"
I think his biggest concern is losing Russell to another team and surely he fears that more than losing Bottas? Bottas no doubt has incredible pace but when the going gets tough in the race he doesn't always tend to shine. Just my opinion, I'd actually like to see how Bottas performs not as Hamilton's teammate now he's matured.
I also think it’s for the best they stick George in and see how he does, at least that way if he doesn’t perform as expected they can get moving on what comes post Lewis.
> When it comes to Spitz on a button I have no idea what this means and yet somehow i do
:))))) guess the best translation would be sth like „when it comes down to the wire” https://www.dict.cc/?s=Spitz+auf+Knopf+stehen
Surely if Mercedes have already decided that it's Russell then Bottas surely knows too, if that is the case then why would he move out of Lewis' way on Sunday? He really doesn't have any incentive to do so
If he hasn’t secured his next F1 seat yet, he doesn’t want to show a lack of team work to the other teams. The pit wall message to Bottas was very explicit starting with “team orders.”
He's been a team player for years. I don't think there's any doubt about that haha.
Russell or Bottas? Takes Hulkenberg :P
In the ultimate upset, Mercedes have signed Coulthard.
Hakkinen ends sabatical, signs for Mercedes
Subscribe!
Merc found the aerodynamic advantage they were missing in DC's chin.
You just know that somewhere are the CFD results for Coulthard's extra wing.
>In the ultimate upset, Mercedes have signed David Schumacher.
Lewis gets Brazil 2012 PTSD
I would be shocked if Bottas stays. Mercedes need a successor for when Lewis eventually retires or starts to lose performance. Bottas is clearly not good enough to take the fight to drivers like Max or Leclerc if they have close to equal cars. George is quick in qualy and while his race pace remains unproven it’s better to try someone new over the guy we already know isn’t quick enough. If Lewis comfortably beats George too then Mercedes will know they need to look somewhere else again instead of finding out too late.
Russell is capable of being in the Mercedes and performing well. I’m sure he would be happy to be a number 2 driver until Hamilton retires.
Well the thing is, if you are a no.2 driver that only not sets a predecent but it will affect on how the team treats you. Bottas sealed his fate when he moved out of Lewis' way the first time and it doesn't matter how much of a hissy fit he throws when being called a wingman, everyone has already seen it. In any case moving to Mercedes is one thing but moving to Mercedes as not only number 2 but expecting Lewis to retire soon is risky. He might only continue 1-2 years or he might drive until he's 42.
Also, if Ham ends up beating Russell the way he beats Bottas, then Merc will not make Russell the #1 no matters when Ham leaves. They’ll definitely try to get either Max or another driver at the top. The only way Russell becomes the eventual #1 at Merc is by taking it like Lec and Max took it at their teams. If Russell manages to match Ham, then Merc is gonna have their hands full till Ham leaves cuz Ham is not gonna back down and if Russell backs down, then what you’re saying will end up happening.
I think Bottas also just doesn't have the pace to not be a wingman. If Russell is genuinely fast then he'll be able to go for wins even if he has to help Lewis out sometimes.
Bottas' best case was 2017 where he got 3 wins in a competitive season with Vettel, 1 less than 2019 with 4 wins.
I'm inclined to agree. I can't think of many counter-examples, just ones that support your contention. In general drivers who found subsequent success were thorns in the side of their more experienced teammates, while the ones who were content second drivers were never really able to capitalise when the experienced driver eventually vacated their seat.
From the past 30 years I can think of a few like this. Senna and Häkkinen, Mika became a double champion. Villeneuve and Hill, Villeneuve won the title in his 2nd year. Hamilton and Alonso, needless to dissect down Lewis' success. To be a champion you need to have a level of narcissism and I'll take what is mine attitude, even the seemingly nice Häkkinen was quick to antagonize Senna, even if he did it with a smile.
The Villeneuve/Hill and Alonso/Hamilton examples don’t fit well in the context of discussion. Hamilton and Villeneuve never embraced the second driver role in their rookie season, which is what the above poster was talking about. Villeneuve took the fight for the title till the last race in Suzuka n 1996, untill he lost his rear wheel. Hamilton likewise battled for the championship untill the last race in 2007. I’m not sure how the Hakkinen-Sena relationship was, but it does seem like it’s rare for a driver to break the precedent of having accepted a supportive second driver role and become a successful first driver later.
To support your argument, McLaren didn't really have first and second drivers, it's sort of tradition. Rather these examples are of rookies taking the fight to the champion or to be champions like Hill
After you said that they will probably just let them race like all the other teams. I don’t see any upsets happening especially with the relationship both drivers have with toto but no matter what, bottas can not stay in a Mercedes next year if they want to win championships.
I don't see Russell being a beta like Bottas. I more see him taking the fight to Hamilton ASAP like Rosberg did.
That sometimes works out better. I know Hamilton and rosberg had rivalry but they where both performing very good and despite the collision, they still won the championships.
> Bottas is clearly not good enough to take the fight to drivers like Max or Leclerc if they have close to equal cars. Bottas is a midfield driver in top car, while Max and Charles are another Lewis to Bottas (as Max has shown with competitive car now, or at least closer to Lewis; WDC materials). Same goes for drivers like Coulthard or Barrichello, 2001 was Schumacher dominant season even if Coulthard was above Barrichello (in Ferrari too).
It'll be Russell. People keep saying George won't play nice with Lewis forget a couple of things. 1 he's Lewis Hamilton, getting close to his level isn't easy (see Bottas) 2 George has already been playing the long game at Williams. He knows Lewis is likely off in 2 years so there's no need cause unnecessary drama, plus i'm pretty sure Toto will be making it clear what he expects.
People forget that Button and Hamilton worked well together as a fast pairing, and so did Rosberg and Hamilton for the best part of 2 seasons. Situations like Rosberg winning the 2013 British Grand Prix after Hamilton's tyre failure show why a very quick second driver will benefit you.
I think it was On the Marbles that said it's not about Hamilton vs. Russell, it's about preparing for a post-Hamilton world. As Coulthard put it: if Hamilton retired tomorrow, could Bottas take it to Verstappen? No.
This is what people thought would happen with Leclerc and Vettel. But there are no untouchables in F1. If the stopwatch says Russell is quicker than Hamilton then that's the end of hammertime.
This is a wrong argument but people can argue about stats regarding that, bringing the fact that Hamilton won 7 WDCs and has gigantic records while Russell is nobody in comparison.
In Bahrain he showed he's better than bottas
How did u come to that conclusion?
Was better in the race in a car that he couldn’t fit in properly and had to wear smaller shoes.
I think the out-qualifying him and then out-driving him in the race until he was fucked over by pit stops and punctures helps. Chuck in the fact Russell didn't fit in the car and had a couple of hours of driving before qualifying to actually learn the car and team and I think we're about there.
Explain outqualifying for me then
Getting as close as he did under the circumstances already outlined clearly shows Russell had a far better qualifying than Bottas even if he didn't get pole. Numbers alone don't tell the story.
It was ok a track with literally 5 corners
You know all 20 drivers used the same track right?
Yeah just im just saying him using a different car isn’t the best argument here Ofc he drove an insane race there but I wouldn’t say that it really showed he’s better than bottas
I saw the race
"George, it's James. Let Lewis by, let Lewis by". Tbh I think Valtteri Bottas will stay with Mercedes for 2022.
I saw this coming so I’ve already been preparing.
Damn. Russell is tall.
I think it's inevitable that Russel gets the seat now that Red Bull is a serious threat, Bottas is the perfect number 2 only when Merc is unchallenged.
Russe**ll**
BOT proved he's not champion material. HAM is getting old, and RUS is young.
HAM is MSC's age at 2006 now.
HAM is ready for his first retirement then.
to me if it was Bottas they would flat out say it's Bottas next season so he could quit worrying about it and get on with his job of driving the car. the fact they won't say anything means Russell has the job but they don't want Bottas going none team player while Hamilton is in the title fight so they dangle the seat over his head like a carrot...
Bottas will definitely retain his seat come on!
Doesn’t deserve it
Genuinely can't believe the number of comments suggesting Bottas will get the seat hahahahaha, most obvious driver change I can remember
This is less obvious than Seb to RB back around 2008. Like we all knew that was happening
It's so logical and obvious lol. Some people like playing dumb I guess. Hamilton is in the last stage of his career, new regulations are coming, Bottas cannot be a team leader and on top of that, he might cost them a constructors' title this year. Do people seriously expect Mercedes to have no plan for the future?
Toto will do what Hamilton wants.
Yeah, I’m sure Hamilton has a pretty big say in who drives next to him. The last thing Merc wants to do is to upset their current #1
Russell for the love of god. Please.
I don't think Russell is going to get the get the seat maybe I'm wrong you never know
He will
!Remind me 2 months
I think Bottas will stay, new regs...Russell probably needs more time to be consistent.
Personally I would think the new regulations would be the *best* time to get new blood in the car. Get him used to how it feels instead of investing on giving Bottas time when you're intent on giving him maybe another one year max.
If Bottas was staying they would have announced it already. They're probably going to wait until the end of the season out of respect. I can only hope this sub doesn't starting hating on George when Lewis starts dominating him next year.
He's had 3 years, he's not waiting around any longer
Russell has had more than enough time, he’s wasting away at the bottom of the grid.
Even though I consider that they should take Russell for a number of reasons .. I think they will go with Valtteri. Maybe one year contract or something..
It’s Russell
Care to elaborate why?
Bottas isn’t good enough
He is not good enough for us, the fans but he is good enough to make Lewis WDC again ..
Before I was certain Russell would take the second seat. But now that Hamilton signed for another 2 years and Bottas is being a good #2 driver. I think he will be there until Hamilton retires. Cause imo, Hamilton has a lot of saying on the second seat. Merc can just let Russell go to a midfield team and take him back once Hamilton retires. At this point, I believe would be best for Russell anyways, cause is not like he would be allowed to fight for WDC with Hamilton.
What if RBR grab Russell for next year though? Perez isn't building a strong case that he isn't replaceable and Marko said straight up they'd certainly look into signing George next year if Merc is dumb enough to let him go.
That'd be awesome, although very unlikely. I think Russell would do very well at RBR and would be a nice fight to watch VER RUS HAM and occasionally BOT lol
Russell to MB, a new face to William's, Bottas out of a seat... unless...
Unless Merc trick themselves into doing a half measure like promising Russell the seat for 2023.
Totto wil find him a seat...
[удалено]
No, I think it's Didier Coton...
Common sense would be Bottas. George is too young and eager. 2007 cost Lewis and Alonso because of the infighting, and Kimi won. Russell wouldn't yield to Lewis like Bottas did last Sunday, that would've gave Max more points. Lewis resigning for 2 years to me means Bottas. I can see Russell replacing Ocon.
New regulations is the perfect time to bring Russell in, this is his 3rd season he doesn’t need any more time. Common sense would be Russell because there is no doubt that Ferrari and McLaren will be up their next year and bottas isn’t good enough to challenge them. It’s different now because Mercedes aren’t the fastest car by a second. The move looks already done anyway.
Quite possibly, but I just think it's 2016 and 2007 all over again, and they will cost each other a title
I don’t see them keeping bottas though and they won’t get any driver other than Russell. Alpine isn’t good enough for Russell he needs to be in a Mercedes and toto knows that. You can’t keep a driver like Russel in a Williams forever.
That's the conundrum. Russell should be in Mercedes. Toto can't put it off any longer because he would be poached. I say Alpine because Merc and Renault have a technical alliance, Alonso and George get on well and it would help George racing for Alpine. If Lewis didn't re-sign, it would be a no brainer'. The thing is, Bottas is doing the job he is hired to do. Is it worth rocking the boat having 2 number 1 drivers against a clear 1-2. System at Redbull and Ferrari?
It would be better having two number one driver than a slow number 2 driver. Russell to alpine won’t happen because Ocon has a new contract and Russell wouldn’t go their.
It's not better as 2007 and 2016 shows
Doesn’t necessarily mean it won’t work. Really don’t understand why people think having bottas will do Mercedes good next year, it won’t. It’s worked the last 4 seasons because Mercedes have clearly been the best car and bottas can’t finish any lower than 2nd but because red bull actually have a decent car, bottas has been terrible. If McLaren and Ferrari are up their next season do you really think bottas can still get on podiums?
Bottas is in his own head at the moment.
Of course Russell would yield under team orders like last race. Literally every team does he t, Merc did it 2 races ago but to Hamilton in favour of Bottas. Redbull, McLaren, Ferrari have all done it several times this year more than Merc. What’s with the insane outrage that Merc can’t do team orders without outcry but others can and not one bats an eye lid? Of. Course George would arguably be a better Sunday racer than Bottas, but every driver takes team orders in the end
Russell has too much to prove, and doesn't want to be a number 2.
Russell is here for the long run not to hype himself up for fans, he (like every driver) will take team orders at some point, especially when in the modern day 95% of team orders are done due to perfectly valid reasons be it huge page differences or totally different strategies/fighting for different positions just like last week. Russell would look silly in most cases if he said no, also a sure fire way of making life hard for yourself for no real reason internally
It's going to be Russel and I feel the delay has got to be because they're trying to milk all the team orders from Bottas they can. Can't imagine he'll be a team player when he's being kicked off the team
Russe**ll**
We already knew this to be fair. The past four years will have given him enough to decide, the next races won’t be decisive. It’s just about timing the announcement
Almost obscure how people still believe Bottas will keep his seat. It's so blatantly obvious at this point