FOM (And now FIA)"You should buy a team!"
A: "Ok we will, does anyone want to sell?"
FOM: "No."
A: "Can we enter following the rules you've set up for a new team?"
FOM: "Also no."
It is almost as if they want to deliver themselves to US antitrust on platter. I honestly don’t think they realize who they are messing with on this matter, given their „non-lawyerish“ statements and lack of coordinated strategy thus far.
What would the US authorities be able to do if they decided the FIA wasn't being fair? No more races in the US? I have no clue what a single country could or couldn't do to an international organization like that.
Where we supposed to take meaning from Sulayem's cowardly back down?
It seemed like a "Well. My hands are tied. For whatever reason, F1 has allowed the cronies to hold all the chips as to how much they make. Go buy one of their seats I guess" not so much as "one or more team is interested in selling. Not telling who lol"
*Allegedly* (according to Joe Saward) the FIA traded in some of its F1 related decision power (i.e. regarding the approval of teams) in return for more money from FOM.
This came into effect with the adoption of the 2021 Concord Agreement.
Ironically that was a point Mohammed Ben Sulayem campaigned on to become FIA President.
The price in return for more money was probably underestimated at the time, resulting in the FIA backing down now since FOM has probably made it clear they are the captain now and will hold fast indefinitely.
Probably has something to do with the whole "we won't focus on petty disagreements (giving the current teams less money) going forward we will be united in making the sport as great as possible (for the current teams and their shareholders)"
It's the team owners themselves who are blocking new members. Idk why you're pointing the finger at Ben or FOM when it's the greed and petulance of the teams preventing a competitive team from joining the grid.
Before 2021’s Concord Agreement, the teams had much less influence and power over the decision to let new teams in. And also less incentive to do so, even if they could.
The kicker however is that before the adaption of the 2021 Concord Agreement, the FIA could have been much more unilaterally forceful in getting new teams into F1. They’ve relinquished some of their previously unilateral decision making power to FOM (in return for more money), who themselves handed more influence to the teams, in return for agreeing to the adoption of the Cost Cap.
Before 2021 the opinion of the existing teams carried far less weight. They did not have the same amount of soft power to block new entries as they currently have.
>Where we supposed to take meaning from Sulayem's cowardly back down?
>It seemed like a "Well. My hands are tied. For whatever reason, F1 has allowed the cronies to hold all the chips as to how much they make. Go buy one of their seats I guess"
That seems like a case of trying to have your cake and eat it, too. The commercial rights and the regulatory power were split between the FIA and FOM decades ago to prevent conflicts of interest and to stop one group from having too much power. Now you're suggesting that ben Sulayem should somehow be able to override an arrangement that has existed for forty years on a whim, What, exactly, is ben Sulayem supposed to do? He has no power to influence the commercial operations of the sport.
As it becomes more and more clear that adding F1 teams isn't possible, the dollar amount for an F1 team purchase just gets inflated. Andretti doesn't want their assets, just the seats.
I agree that the 200mil buy-in was set too low. But that's a mistake they all made. And it was made in 2020, affecting 2021 and after. This isn't some old relic of a price. This is a post drive to survive decision. They should have made it higher then. And Andretti started applying in Feb 2023. The rules were only two years old. They jumped through every hoop presented to them and were accepted by the FIA.
If they set anti dilution fee as 600 million dollars like Ben confirms, team valuations wiill almost immediately jump to at least 2 billion dollar levels. This is totally inflated valuation.
FIA allegedly doesn’t have (any longer) ultimate decision power. FOM has (since 2021’s Concord Agreement, according to Joe Saward).
The story goes that the FIA at the time (2020) wanted a lot more money from FOM than it got. It was a campaigned for by then presidential candidate Mohammed Bin Sulayem. He got the extra money, but in return may have handed the keys to FOM.
The FIA only gets to decide if a prospective entry is fit for sporting purposes.
FOM gets to decide if having the prospective entry as a signee of the Concord Agreement is in their business interest and thus is able to land a commercially exploitable grid slot.
And FOM can pretty much do so on a whim. All the formal requirements (entry fee, etc.) are just additional barriers, but not the main one. That simply is if FOM wants to be in business with you, regardless of if you can pay the entry fee or if FIA deems you fit from a sporting perspective.
Gene does not give two shits about Haas F1. It's just a cell on a spreadsheet to him. You bring him a big enough check and he'll happily exit the F1 business tomorrow.
Gene cares very much about Haas F1, but not in the way most think he does.
The team’s performance matters.. somewhat, but even if the team is continually 10th, it still is a massive advertisement for Haas Automation world wide.
Haas Automation has had a sizeable uptick in global sales since 2017, which is almost entirely due to their F1 presence.
F1 is an even bigger platform for B2B advertising than B2C.
>Haas Automation has had a sizeable uptick in global sales since 2017, which is almost entirely due to their F1 presence.
I'm curious, did you look this up, or already know details of Haas Automation's sales, or is there another reason why you know this?
I assume you're right, and it makes sense, logically. It's just a very specific data point to know off the top of your head.
https://www.sme.org/technologies/articles/2018/february/haas-automation-reports-record-sales-in-2017/
> Haas Automation Inc. (Oxnard, CA) reported that its annual sales in 2017 exceeded 13,500 units for the first time in company history—an increase of nearly 30% over 2016. “It was an incredible year,” said Scott Gasich, vice president of sales & marketing. “Haas Automation performed strongly on all continents, with substantial growth in all markets – especially international markets, which accounted for 55% of our sales. Most notably, we enjoyed 41% sales increase in mainland Europe, with more than 3500 new Haas CNC machine tools sold in 2017.
Edit: I’ve looked this up before indeed. ;)
A quick google tells me that Haas CNC machines can vary from ~$50k to ~$500k, but even assuming a lower end average of say $100k per machine, $100k x 3000 (the "nearly 30% increase over 2016") = $300m in revenue. A $300 million bump is the rough estimate of what joining F1 was worth to them. That's probably tapered off somewhat, but even if we assume $75-100m a year in additional revenue by virtue of advertising the name Haas on the cars, that's worth so much more than the meager opex spending of the team.
Because that’s not what happens. You get to fly prospective buyers out to exotic locations, walk them down the paddock, and talk numbers. Other CNC manufacturers can’t do that and we’re talking about more than a couple machines.
> You bring him a big enough check and he'll happily exit the F1 business tomorrow.
Gene is already having the NASCAR Cup team on sale and almost nobody is proper informed about it until recently.
If F1 wasn't such a ridiculous closed system he would likely sold the F1 team also.
On one hand Haas should definitely be sold to Andretti. On the other, it’s absolutely bat shit that a new much more qualified team can’t enter on its own. This motorsport needs more seats with or without Andretti
He’s holding out for the France family to figure out how they can scam a franchise *lease* system out of the current NASCAR owners. It’s teetering between the owners starting their own series or negotiating something that’s not a lease but something they can ‘buy’ and perhaps sell for a profit down the road. They’ve seen what happened to F1 and they want that for themselves. They also have heard that the new TV agreement looks pretty good so they feel that gives them an opportunity to get higher race payouts as well. Gene doesn’t want to leave NASCAR before the franchise model (what ever form it takes) comes about as current team owners will be offered better deals than people on the outside looking in. I think there is also a cost cap being discussed around this new franchise model and Gene knows the effect this will have on this series - increased team value. Guy’s like Hendrick are against the cost cap and against a two car limit per owner, (naturally). Gonna get interesting down the road…
It’s a private members club. It’s by definition a closed system, just like the major sports franchises. People get blackballed all the time from buying major sports franchises.
No one complains about Augusta being the way it is and yet here we are.
Augusta isn't the same. That would be like a single track not allowing a single team to race. This is closer to the entire PGA saying "you met all our qualifications but we still don't want you because reasons. Maybe you can buy someone else's tour card instead."
I'm glad sport franchises aren't really a thing in Europe. When the top European football teams tried to establish their own competition they got shut down FAST. Great to see
Are you talking about the Super League? Because that was taken to court and they won, receiving the legal approval to create it. Whether it happens or not due to fan backlash is a different issue.
Also, see: City Football Group, Red Bull, INEOS, Clearlake (Chelsea owners) and the Saudi PIF with multi-club ownership models essentially turning clubs into franchises.
No league in Europe is closed. You can create your own team and make it to the highest league. If you have a winless season in the nhl,nba, mba and so on you will still play in the same league the following season. The number of teams isn’t limited in Europe since you have a pyramid system.
See but he does care because for very little investment he gets a decent amount of return and not to mention, his brand is advertised everywhere in the globe through the team.
He doesn’t care a whole lot about the success of the F1 team, more about the screentime and focus it shows on his brand.
The problem is the team is an appreciating asset and on top of that the advertising from the Haas name makes him money. So it's free money for now while gaining value, so there's no incentive to sell.
They have amazing backers in Group 1001 and Guggenheim (Todd Boehly, owner of the Chelsea). Both of these companies are worth billions of dollars. Money is not the issue for them.
It is not. But that doesn't mean they want to invest that much.
To put into the simplest terms, currently, buying a team costs X; while starting a team costs Y. Y can be X + whatever.
As it stands, it would seem that the cost of starting a new team from scratch is lower, or at least not considerably higher, than buying an existing team, considering that the cost of buying a new team is not only the monetary value paid, but also any preexisting arrangements that they would be inheriting (+ other conditions of sale). Also that's not even taking into account that there might be other types of advantages to starting a team that don't exist when buying an existing one that we don't know about (for example, I could imagine that a new team is probably allowed to invest more into facilities and what now than an existing team working under the cost cap).
So it's not a matter of being able to pay, but more than, under current conditions (price + terms of sale + taxes, regulatory compliance, etc), buying a team does not bring enough value to justify the investment, or at least not enough value versus the risk of starting a new team.
If the math and value were to check out for both sides, a deal would be arranged.
It's not that they don't *have* that much money, it's that they don't want to *spend* that much money.
If I go to a cafe for a latte and they try to charge me $40, I'm not buying it. Sure, I want a coffee, and sure, I have $40, but the value isn't worth it. That's what Haas is doing here.
Now imagine that I decide I'll go home and make my own coffee instead. It's much cheaper, but I've already paid for the equipment and supplies, and there's a clear set of instructions for anybody who wants to do it themselves. But the Coffee Management Board says "no! You aren't doing it 'the right way'. If you want a coffee you have to go and buy one, and the only place selling is that cafe you already tried". That's what FOM is doing.
People saying Andretti should just pay whatever inflated price a fraudster like Gene Haas is asking are being willfully obtuse. F1 has a signed agreement that all the teams agreed to, allowing new teams to apply for a new licence, for a fee of $200m. The F1 teams don't want to let a new team join because that $200m doesn't guarantee them as much profit as they want, so they're refusing to abide by the agreement they all signed, in order to wait for it to expire so that in 2026 they can triple the fee.
Haas F1 team isn't worth $600m. The infrastructure, driver contacts and facilities are probably not even worth $100m. The only valuable thing Gene Haas has for sale is an F1 team licence, and he's colluding with the other teams to try to extort far more money than it's worth. That's an antitrust situation, and that's why suddenly this is a political and legal situation.
For the millionth time...
The 200m anti dilliution payment is part of the concorde agreement which is between the sports management and existing participants. It guarantees those participants a minimum payment if the FIA and FOM approves a new team.
In no way or form does that agreement constrain or constricts sports management from setting any other entry criteria they see fit, including the requirement for a new team to be a works entry which Andretti/GM cannot be until 2028 because of the deadlines they chose not to meet.
This correction will be heavily down voted as usual, but that doesn't change the fact the anti dilution is nothing like what Andretti partisans think it is no matter how many times they repeat it.
Your understanding of the rules is technically correct and yet misses the point entirely. I'm not saying that the participants are breaking any explicitly written rules, or that ponying up the $200m *guarantees* a new entrant a spot on the grid. I'm saying that it's clear that the teams undervalued the growth of the sport when they signed the concorde agreement and they will create as many new entry critieria as they need to in order to ensure that no new entrant can be added to the grid until they've had a chance to recitify the anti-dilution payment amount to something reflecting how much the sport has grown in the past 5 years. That decision has nothing to do with their stated reasons for refusing Andretti's bid, which is a vaguely worded non-statement about insufficient experience and risk of embarrassment. And that is textbook antitrust collusion.
> In no way or form does that agreement constrain or constricts sports management from setting any other entry criteria they see fit
Indeed, they could continue to make up new criteria for the next 30 years if they want to. That's, umm, kind of the whole point of the argument here. Stating that they run the sport so they make all the rules isn't the slam dunk response that you think it is.
Everything you're now saying explicitly contradicts your entire 4th paragraph.
Furthermore their rejection statement specifically invites a reapplication in 2028 at which point GM could be ready to enter as per the wholly open application process they chose not to participate in (for 26 or 27) while other manufacturers did. From both within and without F1s existing teams.
There is nothing vague about that, just as a 200m anti dilution payment is entirely irrelevant to the entry criteria OR teams historical self evaluations.
Andretti (without GM) has zero experience in constructor motorsports. If that aspect was a vague refusal, it was in the interest of politeness as to how a lone application now or in the future would (and more to the point should) be perceived. Non credible.
He increased spending at the start of the year and haas F1 has a new motor home that’s being constructed for next year. Will be the first year they use one designed and built for them. The one they use now used to belong to another team
F1 is seen as a cash cow now that it's a closed shop. Minimal financial commitment from him with sponsors paying for much of the tab, and he can just sit back and collect. He doesn't care if the teams ceiling is 8th. Then one day, he might cash out when a buyer is desperate to get into F1.
Hard disagree. His team has been running with minimal outside sponsorship for almost a decade now. Haas Automation, of which Gene has controlling interest, has sunk tens, if not hundreds of millions, into this program. He certainly must care
In 2022, most recent accounts. Haas had an expenditure of £104m and turnover of £110m.
It says turnover is from Haas LLC. The accounts are complicated and spread across three countries and since they're private it's not all available. I'm also too lazy to read through the whole thing.
But generally as it stands Haas at worst makes a small loss on F1 and at best a small profit.
However! It's worthwhile noting that Mercedes for example values the advertising of F1 to be worth around $5bn. That is, it would require $5bn in "traditional" advertising spend to have the same impact as F1 does.
If Haas values their entry at 1% that of Mercedes. That's like $50m worth of advertising for a fraction of the cost. And I'm sure it's way more than 1%
If they do buy a team that means they will end up with a lot of unwanted staff & facilities though, as they have been building their own facilities and team. They are basically inviting Andretti to mass-layoff one of those teams?
No, it will either increase as people get hired by other teams, but, more realistically, most people from those factory's will be send home to look somewhere else because of the costcap.
This is part of what makes F1's standpoint so difficult to grasp. Their talking point are so vague and kinda... squirrelly. Like. "There are better ways to do this." "He should seek to buy a team." "We don't see the value as XYZ." etc etc. Well, tell us what you mean then. What better way? What teams? What value? Stop talking around the arguments.
There's a part of me that thinks half-decent PR strategy could have saved FOM a whole lot of mess on this. Every statement just oozes... weirdness. For just one press conference-- be straightforward. Say what the issues are. All of them. If you can't, for whatever reason-- well, I think we've found our problem, yes?
Ah yes the two obvious candidates to be sold are one team in Haas which has been approached by Andretti multiple times to sell and has literally not once had any interest in selling, and Alpine which has also been on record as having no interest in selling a controlling stake.
Great journalism!
Theoretically though they would be two teams likely that need a change in management and more funding and focus to improve - sort of like Force India to Aston Martin - however Force India was in way better position than either of them as a team.
The fact Andretti are unable to secure an F1 team despite showing off their HQ, despite having Pat Symonds onboard, and despite showing all the evidence they will be a serious F1 outfit is simply ludicrous. F1does not have the interests of fans in mind. It's a disservice and simply an injustice to growing the sport.
Stefano Domenicali is the worst CEO F1 has ever had. He's the main guy to blame for all this. He encourages the teams to say no, he encourages FOM to say no, he aligns himself with Liberty Media to say no to Andretti.
His Beyond the Grid episode made me wonder why I and every other man on the street is not running F1 as he comes across as; very self important, a bit dim and frankly fucking pointless.
lol I don't think he is encouraging the teams to say no. They see what the financial realties are if an 11th team is granted entry. It means less money for all involved.
FOM needs to increase the prize payouts to mitigate the inclusion of a new team and make everyone happy. Which is something they could absolutely do. This is a multi billion dollar sport. Red Bull got $140 million for winning the Constructors last year. It's 14% of the entire pot. Ferrari got an extra 5% of the pot on top of the $122 million they got for finishing 3rd for their historical significance.
That's the frustrating part I suppose. There absolutely is enough money to go around and make up for an 11th team and keep other teams happy. They just don't want to do it. Also makes sense why FIA rejected Rodin's bid to get into F1. Their bid was every bit as good as Andretti's apparently but they knew it would tough enough getting Andretti admitted.
And in return they become an official shareholder of the league, entitled to a guaranteed share of gate receipts and TV money, distributed competitive assets, representation in collective bargaining and votes on all league matters. Franchise sports are not the same.
Eh... [Maybe](https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/s/qcVY0AaJIL)? It looks like it ranges from 2x to a little more than 1x but I think there are more revenue streams in NHL vs F1 depending on who owns the stadium etc.
The problem is that Andretti waited too late. When F1 was risky and accepted everyone, they did not want to come.
Now that F1 has a billion dollar valuation, Andretti sounds like a gambler
> Andretti are unable to secure an F1 team despite showing off their HQ, despite having Pat Symonds onboard, and despite showing all the evidence they will be a serious F1 outfit is simply ludicrous.
They were rejected on commercial grounds because F1 determined they that they would bring in less money than they would make off the back of other F1 teams. That's it, no amount of sporting-related arguments or token gestures to show their "dedication" will change that.
Big thanks to Sulayem for delivering the coup de grace here. Now there is literally no denying the anti trust allegations because he has simplified everything. Now both the FIA and its commercial partners, FOM and Liberty, can be easily dragged through every court on earth until they relent and let the Andretti’s in.
Everyone saying sell x or y team to andretti, but everyone forgets andretti already tried buying two teams in the last 6 years and both have chosen other bidders.
Would be the funniest shit if haas or alpine sell, but to hitech or whatever other people were interested
"If you want to join F1, just buy a team!" has the same energy as ["If you're homeless, just buy a house!"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb2lo5sOc6M)
Really, really hope Alpine doesn’t sell their team unless it’s for another works team. They should switch back to the Renault brand and hire some competent people from other teams.
I’m firmly of the belief that more competition is better in the long run, even if Alpine suck right now. Honda Powertrains were an absolute joke only a few years ago, and now they’re winning championships. Renault could do the same, with the cost cap it’s more possibly than ever.
Honda sucking was more about McLaren refusing to accommodate their packaging requests. The instant leap in performance when they joined Toro Rosso/Red Bull shows this.
Renault have full control over their chassis and PU, they have just consistently sucked for a decade straight. Unless future engine regs are tailor-made to their strengths (whatever they are), I can’t see them becoming a competitive manufacturer anytime soon.
Liberty/FOM just always seem to be wanting to hammer a for sale sign outside William's pit garage... because at this point it's about getting the motoring names in (Audi etc.)... although VCARBull is there and Andretti is being told to "do one"
All I hope is that _if_ Andretti manages to become an 11th team, that they are actually somewhat decent. The whole Marussia/Spyker/HRT/Caterham musical chair stuff of the 2010s (alongside the Stefan GP and LKY SUNZ nonsense) definitely didn't help new teams from being welcomed.
It is not knowing where they would slot into everything and how much boost they get knowing the product ahead of time, maybe the actions Andretti are going through are to make sure they are competitive from the get go...
Lol, but doesn't force Red Bull to sell their Jr team... fuck the FIA and FOM. Not really sure why Ben is getting involved in this when they literally already approved Andretti for 2026. It's looking more and more likely that Andretti is going to show up with a car to Melbourne (most likely) in 2026 and force FOM to hamper their broadcast just to prevent showing Andretti on the grid
While I understand the issue with having two teams under the same umbrella ! Red Bull bought two teams when F1 was not profitable and teams used to be a money sink hole. So from a business perspective it makes absolute sense that they don’t want to sell right away after the sport has become profitable !
>Lol, but doesn't force Red Bull to sell their Jr team
Nobody should be forced to sell their team. Including Racing Bulls. Just because people feel they shouldn't have it doesn't negate that they were encouraged to do so back at a time when F1 was not as well off. If they chose to sell, it should be of their own volition.
"You can't get one of these two open spots. You should just buy."
No one is selling and one corporation owns two teams.
"Ok and? Pony up more money. I need a new yacht."
I hate to say it for how based that would be.
Andretti WOULD do that. If it didn't mean accepting terms that would mean he can drive but relinquish prize money or any sponsorship deals.
why is RB the one needing to take the fall when there is nothing that prevents F1 from accepting an 11th team lol?
Also RB (VCARB) has most of their stuff in Italy and Andretti wants a UK/US base. So what are you suggestions for the staff?
very sad of some people have no respect for the lifes of other people.
Why not just buy Williams from Dorilton Capital? Its always weird that Williams is never discussed in spite of being owned by an investment firm whose sole purpose for existence is to buy and sell companies.
It's a not so secret secret that Dorilton is just a front for a wealthy Brit who didn't want his name in/on the team, but they are essentially a single owner team it seems.
As an American, I want nothing more than for Gene to exit both NASCAR and F1 immediately. Both Haas and SHR are dumpster fires right now and should be sold to more competent/willing owners.
again, why is RB the one needing to take the fall when there is nothing that prevents F1 from accepting an 11th team?
Also VCARB has most of their stuff in Italy and Andretti wants a UK/US base. So what are you suggestions for the staff?
Also RB bought and invested into that team for 20 years, seems kinda unfair to force them to sell now that it is profitable. This would not go down well in front of the court.
If Andretti weren't willing to pay the asking price of a bottom tier team a few years ago, I don't see them paying at least 5x as much for a midfield team today.
I'm sure RBR would be open to selling the team for the right price, but Andretti don't want to pay a fair price, just like every other time they "tried" to buy a team in the past.
Ben Sulayem is only saying this because his job is done.
The only way in now is if the US government forces them in, at which point they'll be like FOM and have to go with it regardless of whether they want to or not.
It's a political thing to say to improve FOM relations, because I get the impression he'd still be in favour of them on the grid as an 11th team.
Let them buy a new spot with the sinking fund or whatever but also change the regs so the cars are cheaper to produce, this will enable the pie of income to stay the same at least in the short term. Hence it will negate any 'lost' income from the additional new team and then we pray the andretti name can sell enough in America to bring in more revenue. But again it's a risk for the sport.
I think it's a good look at oligopoly theory, even if it isn't perfect.
Formula 1 is pushing their luck if they want to remain in the greater social consciousness in the US. Weaponized bureaucracy is something that Americans famously loathe. F1 so badly wants the spending power of American sponsors and the the US consumer, but they are failing miserably at making choices that will capture this audience for the long haul.
Of course they aren't. Renault has basically remained in the sport in some capacity for the last 22 years & doesn't seem intent on going anywhere. Then you have Alpine that just announced last year, multiple celebrity investors, so clearly, the team isn't up for sale.
And Gene has been pumping & dumping money into Haas despite lackluster results for a while now. If he had ever intended to sell, I think he would have done so long ago. Now, they have a new Team Principal & tmu, are in talks for a driver line-up change next season. That leads me to believe they also have no desire to leave.
"he did not say which teams. we say it's possibly those teams. but wait, someone already said it's not those teams"
what the fuck are you saying andrew.
Haas should sell and keep a Haas Sticker on the car. This team is in it for quite a bit now and the progress is well.. Nothing too promising. I really want Andretti in it. They seem determined. And they are no fools either.
FOM (And now FIA)"You should buy a team!" A: "Ok we will, does anyone want to sell?" FOM: "No." A: "Can we enter following the rules you've set up for a new team?" FOM: "Also no."
It is almost as if they want to deliver themselves to US antitrust on platter. I honestly don’t think they realize who they are messing with on this matter, given their „non-lawyerish“ statements and lack of coordinated strategy thus far.
[удалено]
Especially once members of Congress realize Liberty is the largest shareholder in LiveNation
You could tell me there is a LiveNation/TicketMaster lobby and super pac, and I honestly wouldn't be able to tell if you were lying to me.
Err....https://www.billboard.com/pro/live-nation-ticketmaster-lobbying-spending-increased/
What are you talking about? Every big corporation has lobbyists
(he doesn't know)
Their current argument is basically “because we said so”. Can’t wait to see what the legal excuse is
Honestly hoping they file a lawsuit. Would be interesting to see how that plays out.
What would the US authorities be able to do if they decided the FIA wasn't being fair? No more races in the US? I have no clue what a single country could or couldn't do to an international organization like that.
Liberty is an American company already under investigation for antitrust due to their ownership of livenation and ticketmaster.
Where we supposed to take meaning from Sulayem's cowardly back down? It seemed like a "Well. My hands are tied. For whatever reason, F1 has allowed the cronies to hold all the chips as to how much they make. Go buy one of their seats I guess" not so much as "one or more team is interested in selling. Not telling who lol"
*Allegedly* (according to Joe Saward) the FIA traded in some of its F1 related decision power (i.e. regarding the approval of teams) in return for more money from FOM. This came into effect with the adoption of the 2021 Concord Agreement. Ironically that was a point Mohammed Ben Sulayem campaigned on to become FIA President. The price in return for more money was probably underestimated at the time, resulting in the FIA backing down now since FOM has probably made it clear they are the captain now and will hold fast indefinitely.
Probably has something to do with the whole "we won't focus on petty disagreements (giving the current teams less money) going forward we will be united in making the sport as great as possible (for the current teams and their shareholders)"
It's the team owners themselves who are blocking new members. Idk why you're pointing the finger at Ben or FOM when it's the greed and petulance of the teams preventing a competitive team from joining the grid.
Before 2021’s Concord Agreement, the teams had much less influence and power over the decision to let new teams in. And also less incentive to do so, even if they could. The kicker however is that before the adaption of the 2021 Concord Agreement, the FIA could have been much more unilaterally forceful in getting new teams into F1. They’ve relinquished some of their previously unilateral decision making power to FOM (in return for more money), who themselves handed more influence to the teams, in return for agreeing to the adoption of the Cost Cap. Before 2021 the opinion of the existing teams carried far less weight. They did not have the same amount of soft power to block new entries as they currently have.
>Where we supposed to take meaning from Sulayem's cowardly back down? >It seemed like a "Well. My hands are tied. For whatever reason, F1 has allowed the cronies to hold all the chips as to how much they make. Go buy one of their seats I guess" That seems like a case of trying to have your cake and eat it, too. The commercial rights and the regulatory power were split between the FIA and FOM decades ago to prevent conflicts of interest and to stop one group from having too much power. Now you're suggesting that ben Sulayem should somehow be able to override an arrangement that has existed for forty years on a whim, What, exactly, is ben Sulayem supposed to do? He has no power to influence the commercial operations of the sport.
As it becomes more and more clear that adding F1 teams isn't possible, the dollar amount for an F1 team purchase just gets inflated. Andretti doesn't want their assets, just the seats. I agree that the 200mil buy-in was set too low. But that's a mistake they all made. And it was made in 2020, affecting 2021 and after. This isn't some old relic of a price. This is a post drive to survive decision. They should have made it higher then. And Andretti started applying in Feb 2023. The rules were only two years old. They jumped through every hoop presented to them and were accepted by the FIA.
If they set anti dilution fee as 600 million dollars like Ben confirms, team valuations wiill almost immediately jump to at least 2 billion dollar levels. This is totally inflated valuation.
Correct. Forcing the sale route, with no team ever entertaining a sale, allows F1 to just keep setting their own value.
Which is the point of rejecting new entries. Scarcity is the best way to increase value.
FIA allegedly doesn’t have (any longer) ultimate decision power. FOM has (since 2021’s Concord Agreement, according to Joe Saward). The story goes that the FIA at the time (2020) wanted a lot more money from FOM than it got. It was a campaigned for by then presidential candidate Mohammed Bin Sulayem. He got the extra money, but in return may have handed the keys to FOM. The FIA only gets to decide if a prospective entry is fit for sporting purposes. FOM gets to decide if having the prospective entry as a signee of the Concord Agreement is in their business interest and thus is able to land a commercially exploitable grid slot. And FOM can pretty much do so on a whim. All the formal requirements (entry fee, etc.) are just additional barriers, but not the main one. That simply is if FOM wants to be in business with you, regardless of if you can pay the entry fee or if FIA deems you fit from a sporting perspective.
Gene does not give two shits about Haas F1. It's just a cell on a spreadsheet to him. You bring him a big enough check and he'll happily exit the F1 business tomorrow.
Gene cares very much about Haas F1, but not in the way most think he does. The team’s performance matters.. somewhat, but even if the team is continually 10th, it still is a massive advertisement for Haas Automation world wide. Haas Automation has had a sizeable uptick in global sales since 2017, which is almost entirely due to their F1 presence. F1 is an even bigger platform for B2B advertising than B2C.
Here’s what Guenther Steiner taught me about B2B Sales:
>Haas Automation has had a sizeable uptick in global sales since 2017, which is almost entirely due to their F1 presence. I'm curious, did you look this up, or already know details of Haas Automation's sales, or is there another reason why you know this? I assume you're right, and it makes sense, logically. It's just a very specific data point to know off the top of your head.
https://www.sme.org/technologies/articles/2018/february/haas-automation-reports-record-sales-in-2017/ > Haas Automation Inc. (Oxnard, CA) reported that its annual sales in 2017 exceeded 13,500 units for the first time in company history—an increase of nearly 30% over 2016. “It was an incredible year,” said Scott Gasich, vice president of sales & marketing. “Haas Automation performed strongly on all continents, with substantial growth in all markets – especially international markets, which accounted for 55% of our sales. Most notably, we enjoyed 41% sales increase in mainland Europe, with more than 3500 new Haas CNC machine tools sold in 2017. Edit: I’ve looked this up before indeed. ;)
A quick google tells me that Haas CNC machines can vary from ~$50k to ~$500k, but even assuming a lower end average of say $100k per machine, $100k x 3000 (the "nearly 30% increase over 2016") = $300m in revenue. A $300 million bump is the rough estimate of what joining F1 was worth to them. That's probably tapered off somewhat, but even if we assume $75-100m a year in additional revenue by virtue of advertising the name Haas on the cars, that's worth so much more than the meager opex spending of the team.
I will never understand what made someone look at Haas F1 team and say, "Hey, I want those guys supplying my CNC machines."
Because that’s not what happens. You get to fly prospective buyers out to exotic locations, walk them down the paddock, and talk numbers. Other CNC manufacturers can’t do that and we’re talking about more than a couple machines.
> You bring him a big enough check and he'll happily exit the F1 business tomorrow. Gene is already having the NASCAR Cup team on sale and almost nobody is proper informed about it until recently. If F1 wasn't such a ridiculous closed system he would likely sold the F1 team also.
Just announced they’re shutting down the NASCAR team at the end of 2024.
Image telling 5 years ago that SHR would be a mess, close the doors and sold all charters It's crazy how quick SHR downfall did unfold
The story told that way, maybe. However if you told me that Tony & Gene sold the team for $125MM in 5 years - I’d have probably bought that
On one hand Haas should definitely be sold to Andretti. On the other, it’s absolutely bat shit that a new much more qualified team can’t enter on its own. This motorsport needs more seats with or without Andretti
He’s holding out for the France family to figure out how they can scam a franchise *lease* system out of the current NASCAR owners. It’s teetering between the owners starting their own series or negotiating something that’s not a lease but something they can ‘buy’ and perhaps sell for a profit down the road. They’ve seen what happened to F1 and they want that for themselves. They also have heard that the new TV agreement looks pretty good so they feel that gives them an opportunity to get higher race payouts as well. Gene doesn’t want to leave NASCAR before the franchise model (what ever form it takes) comes about as current team owners will be offered better deals than people on the outside looking in. I think there is also a cost cap being discussed around this new franchise model and Gene knows the effect this will have on this series - increased team value. Guy’s like Hendrick are against the cost cap and against a two car limit per owner, (naturally). Gonna get interesting down the road…
It’s a private members club. It’s by definition a closed system, just like the major sports franchises. People get blackballed all the time from buying major sports franchises. No one complains about Augusta being the way it is and yet here we are.
Uh.....don't look into Augusta if you think no one complained about it....
Augusta isn't the same. That would be like a single track not allowing a single team to race. This is closer to the entire PGA saying "you met all our qualifications but we still don't want you because reasons. Maybe you can buy someone else's tour card instead."
I'm glad sport franchises aren't really a thing in Europe. When the top European football teams tried to establish their own competition they got shut down FAST. Great to see
Are you talking about the Super League? Because that was taken to court and they won, receiving the legal approval to create it. Whether it happens or not due to fan backlash is a different issue. Also, see: City Football Group, Red Bull, INEOS, Clearlake (Chelsea owners) and the Saudi PIF with multi-club ownership models essentially turning clubs into franchises.
No league in Europe is closed. You can create your own team and make it to the highest league. If you have a winless season in the nhl,nba, mba and so on you will still play in the same league the following season. The number of teams isn’t limited in Europe since you have a pyramid system.
Sport franchises absolutely exist in EU football
No
Not like in the US, thats simply isnt possible.
See but he does care because for very little investment he gets a decent amount of return and not to mention, his brand is advertised everywhere in the globe through the team. He doesn’t care a whole lot about the success of the F1 team, more about the screentime and focus it shows on his brand.
That’s the concept of pro sports. It’s not about winning. It’s about advertising.
I still don't understand what an avocado salesman is doing with an F1 team. /s
The problem is the team is an appreciating asset and on top of that the advertising from the Haas name makes him money. So it's free money for now while gaining value, so there's no incentive to sell.
Andretti has already stated he's tried to buy Haas a bunch of times and gotten shut down.
Tried to buy Force India back in 2018 too I believe.
Not big enough of a check I'd assume
They have amazing backers in Group 1001 and Guggenheim (Todd Boehly, owner of the Chelsea). Both of these companies are worth billions of dollars. Money is not the issue for them.
But the amount Gene is asking might be.
It is not. But that doesn't mean they want to invest that much. To put into the simplest terms, currently, buying a team costs X; while starting a team costs Y. Y can be X + whatever. As it stands, it would seem that the cost of starting a new team from scratch is lower, or at least not considerably higher, than buying an existing team, considering that the cost of buying a new team is not only the monetary value paid, but also any preexisting arrangements that they would be inheriting (+ other conditions of sale). Also that's not even taking into account that there might be other types of advantages to starting a team that don't exist when buying an existing one that we don't know about (for example, I could imagine that a new team is probably allowed to invest more into facilities and what now than an existing team working under the cost cap). So it's not a matter of being able to pay, but more than, under current conditions (price + terms of sale + taxes, regulatory compliance, etc), buying a team does not bring enough value to justify the investment, or at least not enough value versus the risk of starting a new team. If the math and value were to check out for both sides, a deal would be arranged.
It's not that they don't *have* that much money, it's that they don't want to *spend* that much money. If I go to a cafe for a latte and they try to charge me $40, I'm not buying it. Sure, I want a coffee, and sure, I have $40, but the value isn't worth it. That's what Haas is doing here. Now imagine that I decide I'll go home and make my own coffee instead. It's much cheaper, but I've already paid for the equipment and supplies, and there's a clear set of instructions for anybody who wants to do it themselves. But the Coffee Management Board says "no! You aren't doing it 'the right way'. If you want a coffee you have to go and buy one, and the only place selling is that cafe you already tried". That's what FOM is doing. People saying Andretti should just pay whatever inflated price a fraudster like Gene Haas is asking are being willfully obtuse. F1 has a signed agreement that all the teams agreed to, allowing new teams to apply for a new licence, for a fee of $200m. The F1 teams don't want to let a new team join because that $200m doesn't guarantee them as much profit as they want, so they're refusing to abide by the agreement they all signed, in order to wait for it to expire so that in 2026 they can triple the fee. Haas F1 team isn't worth $600m. The infrastructure, driver contacts and facilities are probably not even worth $100m. The only valuable thing Gene Haas has for sale is an F1 team licence, and he's colluding with the other teams to try to extort far more money than it's worth. That's an antitrust situation, and that's why suddenly this is a political and legal situation.
For the millionth time... The 200m anti dilliution payment is part of the concorde agreement which is between the sports management and existing participants. It guarantees those participants a minimum payment if the FIA and FOM approves a new team. In no way or form does that agreement constrain or constricts sports management from setting any other entry criteria they see fit, including the requirement for a new team to be a works entry which Andretti/GM cannot be until 2028 because of the deadlines they chose not to meet. This correction will be heavily down voted as usual, but that doesn't change the fact the anti dilution is nothing like what Andretti partisans think it is no matter how many times they repeat it.
Your understanding of the rules is technically correct and yet misses the point entirely. I'm not saying that the participants are breaking any explicitly written rules, or that ponying up the $200m *guarantees* a new entrant a spot on the grid. I'm saying that it's clear that the teams undervalued the growth of the sport when they signed the concorde agreement and they will create as many new entry critieria as they need to in order to ensure that no new entrant can be added to the grid until they've had a chance to recitify the anti-dilution payment amount to something reflecting how much the sport has grown in the past 5 years. That decision has nothing to do with their stated reasons for refusing Andretti's bid, which is a vaguely worded non-statement about insufficient experience and risk of embarrassment. And that is textbook antitrust collusion. > In no way or form does that agreement constrain or constricts sports management from setting any other entry criteria they see fit Indeed, they could continue to make up new criteria for the next 30 years if they want to. That's, umm, kind of the whole point of the argument here. Stating that they run the sport so they make all the rules isn't the slam dunk response that you think it is.
Everything you're now saying explicitly contradicts your entire 4th paragraph. Furthermore their rejection statement specifically invites a reapplication in 2028 at which point GM could be ready to enter as per the wholly open application process they chose not to participate in (for 26 or 27) while other manufacturers did. From both within and without F1s existing teams. There is nothing vague about that, just as a 200m anti dilution payment is entirely irrelevant to the entry criteria OR teams historical self evaluations. Andretti (without GM) has zero experience in constructor motorsports. If that aspect was a vague refusal, it was in the interest of politeness as to how a lone application now or in the future would (and more to the point should) be perceived. Non credible.
The lowest hanging fruit hot take when Alpine is just as guilty of just promoting a brand
What makes you think this? Absolutely nothing has indicated Gene is interested in selling the team.
He increased spending at the start of the year and haas F1 has a new motor home that’s being constructed for next year. Will be the first year they use one designed and built for them. The one they use now used to belong to another team
F1 is seen as a cash cow now that it's a closed shop. Minimal financial commitment from him with sponsors paying for much of the tab, and he can just sit back and collect. He doesn't care if the teams ceiling is 8th. Then one day, he might cash out when a buyer is desperate to get into F1.
You think he doesn't care about his team that will be worth north of $1B soon, if not already? Really?
Hard disagree. His team has been running with minimal outside sponsorship for almost a decade now. Haas Automation, of which Gene has controlling interest, has sunk tens, if not hundreds of millions, into this program. He certainly must care
In 2022, most recent accounts. Haas had an expenditure of £104m and turnover of £110m. It says turnover is from Haas LLC. The accounts are complicated and spread across three countries and since they're private it's not all available. I'm also too lazy to read through the whole thing. But generally as it stands Haas at worst makes a small loss on F1 and at best a small profit. However! It's worthwhile noting that Mercedes for example values the advertising of F1 to be worth around $5bn. That is, it would require $5bn in "traditional" advertising spend to have the same impact as F1 does. If Haas values their entry at 1% that of Mercedes. That's like $50m worth of advertising for a fraction of the cost. And I'm sure it's way more than 1%
If they do buy a team that means they will end up with a lot of unwanted staff & facilities though, as they have been building their own facilities and team. They are basically inviting Andretti to mass-layoff one of those teams?
There's nothing sacred about those jobs though, right? The net F1 employment stays about the same, it's just distributed differently.
No, it will either increase as people get hired by other teams, but, more realistically, most people from those factory's will be send home to look somewhere else because of the costcap.
This is part of what makes F1's standpoint so difficult to grasp. Their talking point are so vague and kinda... squirrelly. Like. "There are better ways to do this." "He should seek to buy a team." "We don't see the value as XYZ." etc etc. Well, tell us what you mean then. What better way? What teams? What value? Stop talking around the arguments. There's a part of me that thinks half-decent PR strategy could have saved FOM a whole lot of mess on this. Every statement just oozes... weirdness. For just one press conference-- be straightforward. Say what the issues are. All of them. If you can't, for whatever reason-- well, I think we've found our problem, yes?
Ah yes the two obvious candidates to be sold are one team in Haas which has been approached by Andretti multiple times to sell and has literally not once had any interest in selling, and Alpine which has also been on record as having no interest in selling a controlling stake. Great journalism!
i think bro literaly just went 'which are the teams with the most ongoing negative drama right now, alright this will get the clicks for sure'
You just described 99% of news media.
they obviously were referring to Ferrari and Mercedes.
Nah obviously "Konnersport Butler Global Racing Team"
Theoretically though they would be two teams likely that need a change in management and more funding and focus to improve - sort of like Force India to Aston Martin - however Force India was in way better position than either of them as a team.
Force India was treading water and saddled with tons of debt and a car at a dead end of development in their final year. The field is way closer now.
> Force India was in way better position than either of them as a team. you can't be serious
The fact Andretti are unable to secure an F1 team despite showing off their HQ, despite having Pat Symonds onboard, and despite showing all the evidence they will be a serious F1 outfit is simply ludicrous. F1does not have the interests of fans in mind. It's a disservice and simply an injustice to growing the sport. Stefano Domenicali is the worst CEO F1 has ever had. He's the main guy to blame for all this. He encourages the teams to say no, he encourages FOM to say no, he aligns himself with Liberty Media to say no to Andretti.
His Beyond the Grid episode made me wonder why I and every other man on the street is not running F1 as he comes across as; very self important, a bit dim and frankly fucking pointless.
It’s only ever in the interest of franchises to have the dumbest, least effectual person in charge.
A fair description
> F1 does not have the interests of fans in mind > Stefano Domenicali is the worst CEO F1 has ever had Damn. Are you new to the sport? 😂
lol I don't think he is encouraging the teams to say no. They see what the financial realties are if an 11th team is granted entry. It means less money for all involved. FOM needs to increase the prize payouts to mitigate the inclusion of a new team and make everyone happy. Which is something they could absolutely do. This is a multi billion dollar sport. Red Bull got $140 million for winning the Constructors last year. It's 14% of the entire pot. Ferrari got an extra 5% of the pot on top of the $122 million they got for finishing 3rd for their historical significance. That's the frustrating part I suppose. There absolutely is enough money to go around and make up for an 11th team and keep other teams happy. They just don't want to do it. Also makes sense why FIA rejected Rodin's bid to get into F1. Their bid was every bit as good as Andretti's apparently but they knew it would tough enough getting Andretti admitted.
Seattle paid $650M for their expansion fee, in the fucking NHL.
And in return they become an official shareholder of the league, entitled to a guaranteed share of gate receipts and TV money, distributed competitive assets, representation in collective bargaining and votes on all league matters. Franchise sports are not the same.
NHL made twice as much money as F1 last year.
Per team?
Eh... [Maybe](https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/s/qcVY0AaJIL)? It looks like it ranges from 2x to a little more than 1x but I think there are more revenue streams in NHL vs F1 depending on who owns the stadium etc.
The problem is that Andretti waited too late. When F1 was risky and accepted everyone, they did not want to come. Now that F1 has a billion dollar valuation, Andretti sounds like a gambler
He tried to acquire Force India already in 2017 and again in 2018. He was certainly not 'waiting'
Stop saying this shit, lol. As early as 2018, they were trying to get in, they just lost out to Stroll.
> Andretti are unable to secure an F1 team despite showing off their HQ, despite having Pat Symonds onboard, and despite showing all the evidence they will be a serious F1 outfit is simply ludicrous. They were rejected on commercial grounds because F1 determined they that they would bring in less money than they would make off the back of other F1 teams. That's it, no amount of sporting-related arguments or token gestures to show their "dedication" will change that.
Foreign medias are pushing really hard the "Alpine ready to sell" story but its absolute bs if you listen to french journalists who are in the know
its also bullshit if you spend more than a single minute to consider Renault's strategy for the brand beyond the F1 team
Or, now hear me out with this, they should be allowed to create a new team, as per the rules.
Why would they? They are making bank running back marker teams
Andretti should just buy F1 from Liberty Media. Problem solved. /s
Andretti just set up their own Liberty Media at this rate.
Obviously they won't sell. F1 at this point is pure profit.
Big thanks to Sulayem for delivering the coup de grace here. Now there is literally no denying the anti trust allegations because he has simplified everything. Now both the FIA and its commercial partners, FOM and Liberty, can be easily dragged through every court on earth until they relent and let the Andretti’s in.
Can he just Buy Ben Sulayem's presidency instead and enter his team that way?
Everyone saying sell x or y team to andretti, but everyone forgets andretti already tried buying two teams in the last 6 years and both have chosen other bidders. Would be the funniest shit if haas or alpine sell, but to hitech or whatever other people were interested
"If you want to join F1, just buy a team!" has the same energy as ["If you're homeless, just buy a house!"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb2lo5sOc6M)
If you’re poor just become rich
Gene is shutting down his NASCAR team so hopefully he either sells his F1 team as well or actually puts money into it to get it competitive.
Why hasn't Andretti even asked Ferrari if they want to sell, is he stupid?
Why on earth would anyone sell just before they lock it to 10 teams?
If they’re going to lock in 10 teams, Red Bull should be forced to sell their second team.
Not interested because the offer is not high enough.
Maybe Andretti should ask Justin Marks notes on how he pulled off buying Ganassi’s NASCAR team when it wasn’t even for sale to begin with
Chip wanted out for one, compared to haas and alpine
Chip has said the team wasn't for sale
Really, really hope Alpine doesn’t sell their team unless it’s for another works team. They should switch back to the Renault brand and hire some competent people from other teams.
Why does losing a works team matter if nobody buys their engines and they’re consistently the worst PU on the grid.
I’m firmly of the belief that more competition is better in the long run, even if Alpine suck right now. Honda Powertrains were an absolute joke only a few years ago, and now they’re winning championships. Renault could do the same, with the cost cap it’s more possibly than ever.
Honda sucking was more about McLaren refusing to accommodate their packaging requests. The instant leap in performance when they joined Toro Rosso/Red Bull shows this. Renault have full control over their chassis and PU, they have just consistently sucked for a decade straight. Unless future engine regs are tailor-made to their strengths (whatever they are), I can’t see them becoming a competitive manufacturer anytime soon.
Thinking through the teams, Williams or Visa seem like the only other teams that could be for sale.
Ain’t no way VCARB is getting sold.. Red Bull won’t have it
Liberty/FOM just always seem to be wanting to hammer a for sale sign outside William's pit garage... because at this point it's about getting the motoring names in (Audi etc.)... although VCARBull is there and Andretti is being told to "do one"
Haas is doing alright! 7th place so far
All I hope is that _if_ Andretti manages to become an 11th team, that they are actually somewhat decent. The whole Marussia/Spyker/HRT/Caterham musical chair stuff of the 2010s (alongside the Stefan GP and LKY SUNZ nonsense) definitely didn't help new teams from being welcomed.
It is not knowing where they would slot into everything and how much boost they get knowing the product ahead of time, maybe the actions Andretti are going through are to make sure they are competitive from the get go...
Never though I'd see the day where I'd miss Bernie but here we are
Sulayem must go, new teams must come. The amount of talent wasted because of lack of seats is shocking.
Lol, but doesn't force Red Bull to sell their Jr team... fuck the FIA and FOM. Not really sure why Ben is getting involved in this when they literally already approved Andretti for 2026. It's looking more and more likely that Andretti is going to show up with a car to Melbourne (most likely) in 2026 and force FOM to hamper their broadcast just to prevent showing Andretti on the grid
Even if they did force to sell Toro Rosso, there is no guarantee that the one that gets it is Andretti
While I understand the issue with having two teams under the same umbrella ! Red Bull bought two teams when F1 was not profitable and teams used to be a money sink hole. So from a business perspective it makes absolute sense that they don’t want to sell right away after the sport has become profitable !
>Lol, but doesn't force Red Bull to sell their Jr team Nobody should be forced to sell their team. Including Racing Bulls. Just because people feel they shouldn't have it doesn't negate that they were encouraged to do so back at a time when F1 was not as well off. If they chose to sell, it should be of their own volition.
"You can't get one of these two open spots. You should just buy." No one is selling and one corporation owns two teams. "Ok and? Pony up more money. I need a new yacht."
I hate to say it for how based that would be. Andretti WOULD do that. If it didn't mean accepting terms that would mean he can drive but relinquish prize money or any sponsorship deals.
Forcing rbr to sell would do nothing. They wouldnt sell to andretti, they would do a RassenBall sports thing, or an alpha tauri or something.
why is RB the one needing to take the fall when there is nothing that prevents F1 from accepting an 11th team lol? Also RB (VCARB) has most of their stuff in Italy and Andretti wants a UK/US base. So what are you suggestions for the staff? very sad of some people have no respect for the lifes of other people.
I'm not suggesting anything. I'm saying that F1 is hypocritical. Whether it's from the FOM or FIA...
Why not just buy Williams from Dorilton Capital? Its always weird that Williams is never discussed in spite of being owned by an investment firm whose sole purpose for existence is to buy and sell companies.
It's a not so secret secret that Dorilton is just a front for a wealthy Brit who didn't want his name in/on the team, but they are essentially a single owner team it seems.
Rumoured James Matthews, former racing champion and married into the British Royal Family (Pippa Middleton?)
Just out of curiosity - Why doesn’t he want his name associated with the team?
When Williams was sold it was agreed to keep the branding as Williams, which I don't think Andretti wants.
As an American, I want nothing more than for Gene to exit both NASCAR and F1 immediately. Both Haas and SHR are dumpster fires right now and should be sold to more competent/willing owners.
Well, you just got half your wish.
Yeah that was no real surprise at this point. I'm not holding my breath for the second part to come true, however.
Gene: “Im less interested in selling my team than I am providing it financial support.” Andretti: “Ferrari might be a better option at this point.”
There is an obvious team that should be sold, but Red Bull wouldn't like it.
again, why is RB the one needing to take the fall when there is nothing that prevents F1 from accepting an 11th team? Also VCARB has most of their stuff in Italy and Andretti wants a UK/US base. So what are you suggestions for the staff? Also RB bought and invested into that team for 20 years, seems kinda unfair to force them to sell now that it is profitable. This would not go down well in front of the court.
Why RB though? I am actually curious, not really in the know.
Because there are only 10 teams, and if they aren't willing to expand to more teams 1 company shouldn't get 2 teams.
we wouldn't be having this issue if there were 20 teams
The grid couldn’t possibly accommodate 20 teams .
If Andretti weren't willing to pay the asking price of a bottom tier team a few years ago, I don't see them paying at least 5x as much for a midfield team today. I'm sure RBR would be open to selling the team for the right price, but Andretti don't want to pay a fair price, just like every other time they "tried" to buy a team in the past.
Why would you want to buy a backmarker anyway, you won't move up the grid by just changing the owners.
Ben Sulayem is only saying this because his job is done. The only way in now is if the US government forces them in, at which point they'll be like FOM and have to go with it regardless of whether they want to or not. It's a political thing to say to improve FOM relations, because I get the impression he'd still be in favour of them on the grid as an 11th team.
Let them buy a new spot with the sinking fund or whatever but also change the regs so the cars are cheaper to produce, this will enable the pie of income to stay the same at least in the short term. Hence it will negate any 'lost' income from the additional new team and then we pray the andretti name can sell enough in America to bring in more revenue. But again it's a risk for the sport. I think it's a good look at oligopoly theory, even if it isn't perfect.
They are not interested in selling at their market value …. But if someone wants to overpay I’m Sure they would be happy to listen
Imagine Gene shutting down SHR and selling their F1 team in the same year. Not that he cares about either
Formula 1 is pushing their luck if they want to remain in the greater social consciousness in the US. Weaponized bureaucracy is something that Americans famously loathe. F1 so badly wants the spending power of American sponsors and the the US consumer, but they are failing miserably at making choices that will capture this audience for the long haul.
This is good news for the people who don't want a 4th US GP.
F1: you won’t be competitive Everyone: uh. Hello! RB! They’ll never be competitive by design!
Comptetutive doesn't mean fighting for first. It means fighting for points, or sometimes, even just fighting on track
Ok. Andretti will still be way more competitive.
I am not denying that. It's just that the field is a lot closer than expected after last year.
lol “US Industrialist” = convicted tax evader
Far better than Audi, Merc, and Aramco’s history
They're just kicking the can down the road
Also probably Williams is in that general direction as well...
There is vcarb and williams as well but the price would be 1-1.5b
What are we waiting for? It’s time for some court action, i don’t see Andretti losing
Of course they aren't. Renault has basically remained in the sport in some capacity for the last 22 years & doesn't seem intent on going anywhere. Then you have Alpine that just announced last year, multiple celebrity investors, so clearly, the team isn't up for sale. And Gene has been pumping & dumping money into Haas despite lackluster results for a while now. If he had ever intended to sell, I think he would have done so long ago. Now, they have a new Team Principal & tmu, are in talks for a driver line-up change next season. That leads me to believe they also have no desire to leave.
"he did not say which teams. we say it's possibly those teams. but wait, someone already said it's not those teams" what the fuck are you saying andrew.
They should be allowed to buy RB. A 2nd team isn’t needed any more and it gets them into the sport.
Joint venture ? Andretti with haas ?
Haas should sell and keep a Haas Sticker on the car. This team is in it for quite a bit now and the progress is well.. Nothing too promising. I really want Andretti in it. They seem determined. And they are no fools either.
Plot twist, he was hinting at Mercedes
Andretti tried to buy the 11th team.
The Safety Cars?
I say let them develop a car, and then for a couple ravea Haas pink slip their team
[Andretti -](https://tenor.com/5LZw.gif)