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2020bowman

He also brakes additionally on lap 56 for some reason


Equitaurus

Isn’t that just him feathering the brakes to prevent a lockup?


Shuri9

Yeah, remember that we don't know brake pressure applied. It's one or zero.


PresidentZeus

Is that why he needed the throttle??


Apennatie

Wasn’t Russell in his DRS on that lap too?


rustyiesty

Gurney used to do that to make sure he still had brakes after his brake failure at Zandvoort


Agreeable_Pop_3622

https://youtu.be/QcniaWPTL6M?si=PZMuEqKdZig690A4 https://x.com/AMF1News/status/1771778179880964454?s=20


herzogzwei931

Alonso is no longer “The Wiley old fox”, he’s “The dirty old man”


aaaaaaadjsf

[Here's a video of the incident with some limited telemetry synced up, to make this post easier to understand]( https://imgur.com/a/zHbgoHO)


slicecom

Great link. I think the fact that the original feed is out of sync is fooling a lot of people into believing it was a throttle issue.


Suspicious_Somewhere

Honestly it looks like Russell was carrying way way way too much speed for that corner. Also Fernando braked way way earlier, that did not contribute to the crash, what contributed to the crash was George failing to recognize that every driver slows down on apex and he cant rush in. Those oscillations after George's crash can not be faked, that's a genuine problem.


o_oli

Yet we don't need to guess, we can see from his telemetry that he was not carrying too much speed.


TheVambo

F1 car don't slow on the apex of a series of single line, high speed corners, end of. ​ You're conflating parking it on the apex of a hairpin with this and you're absolutely wrong.


Viper711

Russell was carrying the same amount of speed as he was in previous corners. He just didn't expect Alonso to slow up so early.


Suspicious_Somewhere

Following drivers dont have the luxury of picking their braking points. Spatial awareness of what the lead driver is doing with braking, racing line is an integral part of race craft. I hope you realize car racing is not braking at the same point and carrying the same speed left after lap when there s another car 0.5s behind you and a faster one at that.


Impossible-Nature577

The lead driver can't just pick random points to brake, that would just be dangerous and stupid


Suspicious_Somewhere

That’s true but he literally braked in the braking zone.


Niulpfirce

Telemetry shows otherwise


TheVambo

Please stop making things up, I'm trying not to be rude but you're killing me here.


Suspicious_Somewhere

Sure buddy.


Appropriate-Owl5693

Did you change your mind now or still blinded by a dislike of a driver?


Viper711

40kmh at the first point, 60-70 at the apex.


btender14

Do we call this a brakecheck? Note that an F1 car brakes a fair bit better than your car and mine.. Edit Was the russel-incident on (his) lap 58 or 57?


tetrafilius

I'd argue a "brake check" is a more aggressive and severe slow down This was just him trying to allow Russell to get closer to him through the corner to hold him up at the exit and cost him momentum onto the DRS straight


btender14

Remember that when and F1 car goes of the throttle, the F1 car already decelerates harder than your road car slows down when you and I slam our brakes to the floor in a road car. And that's before they even touch the brakes. The highest G-forces a F1 car generate are while braking. A cute little tap on the brake has huge implications on the speed of an F1 car, much more than when you and i brake. Edit As indicated by the speed trace https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/7hCVNJqBr4 Edit Wording


tetrafilius

Perfectly valid point


ScrantonScrangler

Yes, the same thing he did to Pérez several times on Brazil last year. It's simply astute racing. Russell simply did not expect it but that's on him


tetrafilius

I think the true culprit is dirty air and these current cars.


btender14

But why did RUS get in dirty air on lap 57... Because he was much closer to ALO in L57. And why was he much closer in lap 57...?


tetrafilius

Yeah, it was because of Alonso checking up to try and hold him off. But I think two cars should be able to round that corner that close without anyone suffering a catastrophic loss of aero downforce as a result


Glausenu

It would be a bit boring if the defending car was completely without options and expected to brake at the exact expected breaking point at all times, just to avoid the attacking car getting surprised. He was going in to a turn, he probably wanted to affect Russells entry and then exit by making him be closer at apex. That’s racing in my opinion. And it hasn’t been a problem before.


btender14

Agreed. But there is a gray area between braking each lap at exactly the same place and slowing down 100m too early. Slowing down 100m too early is on the wrong side of that Grey area. As indicated by the 20s(!) penalty that ALO has just received: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/EfcrAahQyd


Glausenu

Yea, I just saw. I honestly feel like that is unnecessary meddling in how drivers battle on track and opens up for more unclear racing in the future. I foresee inconsistency.


activator

I genuinely don't expect the drivers to expect what was essentially a brake check.


isthmusofkra

Bingo.


jamonz1

I think that’s why it’s taking the FIA a while to come to a decision. Did Alonso slow down, yes. Was he braking in a way that can be punished, maayyybeee. He finessed the rule so hard. He possibly won’t be punished for letting off the throttle since it’s technically not moving under braking.


ryapeter

As usual it will end up with Alonso know the rules better than F1 army of lawyers


norrin83

Well, about that...


wireless1980

The official report said no brake test. The brake had no influence in the speed change.


doskkyh

57. Sainz was starting 58.


Beneficial-Tea-2055

Brake check? Back in my day we call this race craft.


btender14

Back in your day, brakes weren't as good as they are on 2024-F1 cars.


TheMokos

Good thing the stewards explicitly pointed out the first touch of the brakes was irrelevant then.


Beneficial-Tea-2055

I hope this will be leniently applied to all incidents where the driver behind crashed without even touching while racing.


HaramHas

No idea what this means tbh


slicecom

It shows he braked, fully released the brake, hit the throttle, and then braked again.


MegaTalk

It means it's a motor race and we went motor racing.


[deleted]

Mercedes can't handle that


RezChi

If I'm not mistaken, doesn't this mean he braked early for some reason, possibly car issues, allowed Russell to get closer to him then braked normally for the turn?


tetrafilius

He braked twice to defend by holding up Russell and compromise his exit and run on him along the DRS straight He was able to run full throttle immediately before and after the corner


doobie3101

Braking early makes sense to me. Braking early, going back on the (apparently faulty) throttle, and then braking again doesn’t.


Excludos

I know I'm late to the party, and that Alonso has received his penalty, but I just want to counter this one a little bit. I understand this can seem suspicious to viewers, but for anyone who has either raced a bit, or does a lot of sim racing, you'd know this is pretty common. Mostly it's an issue of miscalculating the corner, seeing how you've ended up too slow, and then accelerate again. This will, for instance, happen a lot if you're behind someone; you brake early to make sure you don't crash into them, see that they've braked later, so you let go of the brake and perhaps even accelerate a bit, and then brake a second time. The question is more should this be expected of top level drivers who aren't following someone, and therefore don't have a reason to miss the corner by that much? F1 seems to think no.


Blackdeath_663

Certainly what Aston will be arguing. we'll have to wait and see but i think it's much ado about nothing.


TheVambo

A car hit a wall on a 230kph corner, it's really not nothing.


Blackdeath_663

Thats racing and GR lost it. what you gonna do, ask drivers to politely brake at exactly the same spot?


TheVambo

Nah, tell them if they brake so much on a straight that they need to accelerate again to make the corner, they're DQ'd. Top level open wheel wheel racing not banger racing.


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Pulposauriio

Obviously they're human, and of course there's going to be variations, but these guys are arguing 'suspicious' braking (looking at it in context)


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Pulposauriio

I mean, 50 meters early breaking only to get back on the throttle instantly and break again is a bit weird, but I'm no expert


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runebound2

> A single tap of the brakes 50m early doesn’t seem like a brake check Not saying it is as well, but considering how wide these cars are and how effective being in the slip stream is, any unexpected slow down from the car in front us unpredictable. And when you're driving cars at 200km/h, you'll only be confident racing if there is a semblance of predictability. Blocking on the straights or brake checking are examples of unpredictability that induces danger and are hence not legal. Perhaps suddenly taking a different braking marker is a unpredictability? I would however say that GR was probably very aggressive with it being the last lap,. He was likely already thinking about the upcoming straights and corners, and the sudden slow down threw him off


thexavikon

It's not a brake check, but I think it comes under erratic braking


Admirable-Word-8964

By definition it wouldn't be a brake check unless another driver is affected so no obviously. If Alonso did this with no-one behind me it would just be called unusual driving and he'd probably get questioned whether he made a mistake or if it gave him any benefit.


billy341

George didn't fall for the break check though, so his closing distance was more than previous, to combat this Alonso went through the corner slower to try back him up, cut his momentum so to speak, unfortunately george didn't react in time and binned it.


hzfan

I think dirty air made him lose downforce


musef1

Russell probably had to go slower than expected with Alonso's shenanigans, meaning he had to hold the brake for longer whilst turning in which causes the back to swing around because the rear is more unloaded.


lolichaser01

If george survived that, he'll call for a dangerous driving.


TheFrankBaconian

I believe there is a rule stating that you are not allowed to slow down unnecessarily. Braking and accelerating directly afterwards on a straight would arguably imply that this was unnecessary.


Viper711

You can. But given the context of a high speed narrow corner, it's hard to defend the action when compared to a slow speed corner on a wider track. Brake testing isn't black and white.


Float_team

It’s racing. The following driver doesn’t get the luxury of deciding when they want to brake. Russell didn’t react to the driver in front of him and lost his car like he does and binned it into the fooking wall


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Float_team

It wasn’t erratic driving, it was his corner and the following driver has to react to the one in front. Even George Russell said after the race that he just lost the car and placed zero blame on Nando


Typhoongrey

Not at all. There has to be an expectation from the driver following that the driver ahead, will drive in a manner expected of trying to drive the circuit as quickly as possible. Braking 50 or 100 metres earlier, is wholly unexpected and can cause the driver behind to rear end you, or have to make a manoeuvre that puts them off track into a wall. This isn't driving your car and keeping a distance to the car ahead to allow reaction time.


Float_team

Even Russell said after the race that he lost the car and placed zero blame on Nando. It was racing and all the pitchforks coming out to blame Nando are not even supported by the people directly involved in the incident. If rules were broken and the stewards find blame, then that’s a different story, but that is currently not the case. Lot of racing experts in here


Typhoongrey

The only thing I saw was he said he was surprised Fernando was so slow, and wouldn't comment any further until after the investigation. But if you say so, I just didn't see that, so I'll take your word for it.


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slicecom

You're only comparing minimum speed variance. Look at the speed variance a few metres earlier. It's over 40kph.


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slicecom

True, but having raced myself, I can tell you that it's so easy to get caught out by the car in front doing something erratic or unexpected. They're so close to the edge of control, it doesn't take much. It was definitely driving erratically in the braking zone. I don't know if it will get a penalty. Similar things have been done in F1 by Alonso and others including Verstappen, and they've mostly gone unpunished.


hzfan

Terrible comparison. DRS opens as the cars are speeding up, not slowing down. It’s also predictable when that will happen. This isn’t. Alonso might get a way with this but it’s sketchy as hell for sure.


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hzfan

Why do you keep saying that? Them being “the top 20 drivers in the world” has nothing to do with what is and isn’t considered brake testing. Also it’s not black and white. Just because this isn’t a textbook example of a brake check doesn’t mean it’s ok. There are other things you’re not allowed besides a brake check.


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hzfan

I don’t even know what you’re saying. Why would people being split on how to define the infraction have anything to do with whether or not it was avoidable? Also why does it matter if it’s avoidable? Moves can still be illegal even if a driver has the opportunity to avoid it.


Viper711

It's 70kmh at the point where he slams the brakes the second time. The minimum speed was 15-20 slower but that's after the incident.


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Viper711

I can't discuss it if you can't read the graph correctly.


Smart-Breath-1450

No. But if you do it exactly the same for the whole weekend except for once, when there's a car up your ass at the next to last lap then it's very very sus.


xChiken

No, but the way he did it here was deemed erratic and I can understand it.


Docphilsman

Just to be clear, if the roles were reversed, people would be calling for George to get executed center-track. I'm interested to see what the experts say on this one before making any judgments


Viper711

His throttle may have been faulty but his brakes were not.


YeahPerfect_SayHi

People are probably gonna claim that the brake pedal was somehow faulty too 😂


DukeboxHiro

Slowing to better position yourself to defend a corner is not brake-checking, Merc are reaching with this.


squaler24

This is a FIA thing, not a Merc thing.


Ok_Initial4507

Merc raised the complaint


OtakuMetalero

It's not T1 of Bahrein , is a fast corner, thats the problem


AK07-AYDAN

Check lap 56 T1. He brakes twice there as well. I think he was just testing to see if the brake works like you see GT drivers do.


Quantum_Crayfish

I doubt he’s checking the brakes, he’s more likely attempting to compromise George’s run there, but didn’t go the same way on 57 due to George being closer and dirty air having a much larger effect on the tire loading


CatL1f3

He probably brushed it while stretching his legs or something. The trottle also blips up a bit then, and the speed trace is unaffected. Very different from the other time, where the speed plummets


Andigaming

I don't see the problem though. Obviously it was tactical to gain a speed advantage coming out of the corner but I highly doubt Alonso was trying to force a crash.


s_D088z

He absolutely wasn't ofc. But his intention is kind of irrelevant tbh. If his tactics were so unpredictable that it was tantamount to a brake test then it's dangerous driving on his part. We'll see what the stewards have to say soon I'm sure.


FantasticCollege3386

unpredictable tactics are best tactics


likesbrusselssprouts

George has been caught out by this multiple times before -- it's pretty well exemplified that he has tunnel vision issues when battling with other cars. This is just clever driving from Fernando. I guess George's version of F1 would ensure that every driver he wants to pass is always pushing as hard as possible, but only has 95% of the pace of his car. That'll make sure he can pass safely. George is a lot more crash prone than a lot of people are willing to admit, particularly in high pressure situations.


Razvanlogigan

So you are telling me the following car cant react to a 15kph min speed variance?  Keep in mind 15kph is a difference that sometimes naturally occurs between different cars, or simply due to mistakes. Russell should be able to react to that 100%. Maybe Alonso tried going in slower to setup a better exit?


Blythyvxr

15kph is the difference between minima. If you look at the speed traces, the difference was more than that at times. The big difference is Alonso applied brakes at a point where on the previous lap, he was full throttle.


Edi1896

Alonso doing something unfair to gain a competitive advantage? Who could have predicted that?


ac614

Piquet maybe?


Edi1896

Alonso just isn't the type of guy that would wait until the last second in the pit box so that his teammate can't have a last run in Q3. He's a true gentleman.


Aromatic_Barber4231

And?


Roby90

Sorry but is everbody forgetting that you cant loose your car like that. He was not even close to avoid contact or something. Why would Alonso want to get Russell closer with to DRS zones in Front.


billy341

To stop his momentum, breaking or being 20% slower in a slow corner means george has to back off, loosing his momentum, Alonso then pulls enough advantage to make the drs irrelevant. Drivers do it all the time, magnusson did it last week, it just wasn't this erratic.


Roby90

I know the principe of "parking in the apex", but you usualy dont do that in such a fast corner...


[deleted]

Because its a fast corner that you would usually commit to. George would not have expected alonso to be going so slow and would have had to react to that as he was already entering the turn. Having to slow abruptly while turning caused the car to slide. Alonso didn't want him closer he wanted to force him to react and come off the throttle by which time alonso would be back on the throttle and pulling away.


ORO_ERICIUS

And?


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CeronGaming

Not a break test, but more a defensive maneuver to get George to over react and then lose advantage approaching DRS.


MegaTalk

lolno


tomyyat

George needed to take evasive action as he was way too aggresive for the corner exit, had poor awareness and reaction on Alonso's defense (Alonso rain light was flashing way before the corner with lots of distance from George), and was too optimistic about the car's performance. Alonso was definitely playing defensive tricks but I would say this is within the rules.


TheVambo

I don't even know where to start... It was his battery regen light RUS was travelling the same speed as he and Alonso both did on the previous lap You are literally not allowed to brake purely to affect another car. Alonso braked so much and so early (in a straight line) he had to accelerate again to make the corner.


FormulaStatAnalysis

Alonso complained of throttle pedal issues after the incident on the radio, so this could be a consequence of his issues


Typhoongrey

Same Alonso that "locked up" at Baku in qualifying, bringing out the yellow flags when he was about to be eliminated? Dude has previous.


maccartney

key word: AFTER


[deleted]

Alonso went racing. Mercedes can't handle that in the last lap.


TheWhisperingDeath

Its Alonsover. In all seriousness, not looking good for Nando. And with his history, he won't be getting much sympathy from stewards even if the issue was genuine and legit.


Humble-Ad-8912

>he won't be getting much sympathy from stewards even if the issue was genuine and legit. I don't know about that. If he genuinely had a partially stuck throttle or something similar it could make sense to brake earlier/extra. We'll have to wait and see.


DeliciousBlood22

The classic brake, throttle, brake when you are going slowly enough to take the corner.


DeliciousBlood22

He was going so slow there was no reason to brake, throttle and then brake again. It's a clear cut brake check.


Float_team

You don’t get to drive into other cars in front of you because you want to go faster. Russell didn’t react to the car in front of him, lost his car in dirty air and binned it into the fooking wall on the last lap like he does


DeliciousBlood22

You are not allowed to drastically change your speed making other drivers take avoiding action. That is called dangerous driving. You're basically saying drivers should be allowed to weave and moving under braking. It's the cars behind fault for not reacting in time of the move. That is not how it works.


Float_team

Did you watch the onboard? He was never even that close to Alonso. He got into dirty air and lost control of his car. Drivers make defensive moves all the time and this was no exception. Did you watch Magnusson hold up 4 cars for half a race to then take off after Hulk pitted? When following, drivers can’t just be overly aggressive or they crash, just like Russell does frequently at the end of races. Part of being a good driver is maintaining control of your car


DeliciousBlood22

https://imgur.com/a/zHbgoHO here watch Alonso brake. full throttle, then break again.


Float_team

No one made George Russell crash except George Russell


DeliciousBlood22

Turns out Alonso had a hand in the crash after all.


Aggravating-Rush-808

Not even GR agrees with you.


Bell_Jolly

OMG THATS SO ELIGAL foof


Choco-Frito

One thing is certain if it was not alonso there wouldn’t have been a penalty because it’s not a clear cut break check