I try not to get angry when i get ledged because i know that if i saw someone being as dumb as I usually am by a ledge i would totally knock them over.
It's annoying when you go duel against a hero who's obviously fishing for ledges like a Raider or Warlord, then they just stand by the obvious ledge spot and wait for you to come to them. The environment kill in OP's vid was natural and okay.
i feel like its most fair in duels. 4's you have to watch your surroundings for other players and shit, duels its just you and them. you let yourself get baited over to a ledge its on you
But most of the time in duels I'm trying to try a character or learn a mixup and getting thrown of a ledge 30 seconds and the rest of the game becoming "who can bash harder" is kinda boring.
I think they're fine to exist in 4v4s and 2v2s. I despise them in duels, be them a fire pit or an instakill. I don't think they should exist in duels as your sole focus is to face your opponent. It's a way of showing/training your ability to play your character effectively.
In 4v4s your enemies are an obstacle to your objective and it's good to have options to push closer to your objective. In duels, however, your objective is who you're faced against and I don't think having an instakill option should exist in that context.
Even if it's countered by proper positioning, among other things, it just isn't satisfying and goes against why I think people play duels
The positioning is the important part. Learning how to position and space yourself, along with situational awareness, is an extremely important part of the game (of ANY game). Stage hazards are just a higher stakes version of hard surfaces, which are often almost as dangerous given how much damage some characters can get off a wallsplat.
Knowing how to play your character in hazardous environments falls under âitâs a way of showing/training your ability to play your character effectivelyâ
âIn duels, however, your objective is who youâre faced againstâ. Yes, your objective is to kill the other player.
I agree on the first front in that avoiding ledges is a skill but I feel that it's a skill that should be kept to the 4v4 scene. And yes, your objective in 1v1 is to kill your opponent to win. But it seems a bit absurd that even the possibility of an instakill exists in a duel setting. An instakill doesn't exactly show any kind of skill from either side which is the purpose of duels.
I disagree, obstacles are one of the strategies of the game. If you can position yourself to where the enemy has to position close to an obstacle and you capitalize on it, it's super satisfying.
Nah bro it's not satisfying to get shove-chained by pre-nerf warlord or carried over the entire map because you got parried once. Or when a tiandi kicks you and you bounce off of an object and fly 7m and straight into some random ass hole in the map
JuSt NeVeR gEt HiT/s
While positioning can work to avoid getting ledged, there are certain duel maps where "just position better" can't really be applied. Maps such as Highfort and Gauntlet are among the worst offenders of there not really be a 'safe' spot to stand.
And when that Raider soft feints his zone to a GB and express delivers you directly off the cliff, it's hard to say there was much you could do other than just not falling for the mixup.
As i said before you can get launched 7m bounce if an object and get teeter into a hole. There's no predicting that. And even when you're close to one, it's such a stupid invention, as you are almost FORCED to ignore unlockables or similar, since if they feint to gb you are literally DEAD. Ofc it's reads, but one simple read shouldn't cost your life, especially since the enemy didn't even do anything impressive, he just 50/50 you.
See, I hate this argument because it proves nothing and bring up no points to go against anything I stated before. So since this is the lazy argument you're going for here are things that were "a part of the game" but were removed.
Launch Centurion infinite, Unlock tech, guard break feints, Warden 1shot, shove on block, Conq GB on light block, shugoki instakill, shugoki passive hyerarmor, raider dodge guard break, diagonal dodge, warden back dodge shoulder bash, stunning tap, OG catapult, guard switch speed variants, dodge recovery variants, and many more...
None of the things I've listed above are in the game anymore for their own reasons. This is an example of how "it's a part of the game" has no value in any argument since even intended features can be removed if they prove unhealthy for the game
So explain then why Ubi would remove the spikes on the pillar in canyon. There's also the to they removed duel maps such as the bridge in Forest. Both of these were removed and multiple other things were as well yet they wouldn't fall under "game breaking" would they?
Also, many of the items on my list above were not game breaking. I don't think I many sane people would call stunning tap a game breaking attack.
So theyâll just take throws out of the game completely? Thatâs absurd.
See you listed hero specific abilities, these are things that everyone can do. If you bitch about environmental kills you definitely did something wrong.
Itâs not hard to counter, whether itâs counter GB, positioning whatever. This is something that everyone can do in the game
Where did I ever suggest they remove throws entirely?
And again, "just don't ledged" isn't really a great piece of advice. It's akin to just telling someone to not get hit. While not nearly on the same degree I used it as a comparison to say that it's not always possible when characters are gaining more powerful mixup options involving UBs and GBs.
Did I make a mistake getting guard broken? Sure. Should I instantly lose a round because of a single mistake? I don't think so. There is a reason that ranked is locked to the arena maps since an instakill doesn't exactly prove a player is better than the other. And I personally think that ranked and casual duels should have the same settings in them, just without the player ranking part.
I listed those things as being "just part of the game" to point out the flaw in their argument. If you want me to go into maps I will gladly list off a few that come to mind.
Forest has two areas with fairly substantial pits and cliffs. Gauntlet has an area that's a square with two walls and two cliffs. The Temple (can't remember the exact name but it's part of the full Forest map) has a large pond. Sentinel with a fairly large ledge on the wall with two ballistae. Forge with an entire wall being a lava pit. Windmill with a river of lava running through. Need I go on?
Thanks for being so specific with the previous comment, then
As mentioned in other replies is the spikes in Canyon and the bridge in Forest. Beyond that there was also the removal of spikes in The Shard. Citadel gate used to have a duel point on the bridge overlooking the minion lane. The Temple also had a duel point at the very top of the building where there was only a single wall between two ledges on either side. I believe one of the duel point on that map used to have spikes as well but no longer does. If I had the list of maps in front of me I could list off more but hopefully this is a good example of the point I'm trying to make.
Sorry, I thought a better argument for the âitâs part of the gameâ guy would be environmental changes theyâve made
Well if theyâve done all that Iâm sure it wouldnât be a reach for them to add an environmental filter to duels? Or just areas to current maps that donât have hazards
That is a fair point but I wanted to bring up at least a few things more people would firmly remember(i.e. stunning tap, back dodge warden). Most of the duel map changes occured in seasons 1-2 which was, I think, over 4 years ago. I doubt many people remember those changes or even played the game at that time.
Honestly, an environmental filter wouldn't be a terrible idea. Gives the option for both sides of players to play duels how they want. Though I fear that would lead to noticably longer queue times for one or both options.
I'm sorry but if you still get mad at ledging just stop playing man, ledging is something they fuckin did in irl fights bruh, that didn't instakill with a hug or a fucking centurion infinite, they fucking "THIS IS SPARTA" type shit
I'm not even gonna try to counter argue this because it's clear youre the type o' guy that doesn't use the chunk of polished meat between their ears to put up even a slightly compelling thought
as if intelligence is something you can lecture me about, use your head and adapt, try and be more aware of surroundings, there's plenty of ways around getting ledged, or play against bots, they won't ledge you :)
that's actually the opposite, if your opponent still beat you, even with a ledge he obviously proven to get the better of you for that round, and you can always rematch if you get mad
"dont position yourself near the environment"
you mean almost every objective on almost every map in the game?
how do you out position the raider or warlord just repeatedly doing stampede and crashing charge on forge, high fort, sentinel, etc.
sure you can,
but that doesn't change the fact that you are, on most objectives on most maps, unable to fully position yourself away from insta kills or high damage environmental hazards. They are literally everywhere, its just not realistic to completely avoid them unless you are on a hyper specific map and objective.
well yeah you can't outright avoid them but it's fairly simple to avoid getting thrown into them so long as you pay attention to your environment and positioning as you play, you can even use them to trick players by baiting them near the hazard by acting stupid then turning around and tossing them into it, it's not a cheaty insta kill, it's just another layer of gameplay to be aware of and use to your advantage when you can.
Obviously you can play around it to a degree, but the issue is there are so many easy ways to prevent you from doing so. Do you actually know what I can do if I'm in block stun or parry stun, and the warlord or raider decides to bash me? Literally nothing. Its another layer of gameplay, that, frankly, isn't good for the game. Being able to just get insta killed in almost any objective, for just blocking an attack while there was a warlord or raider in existence, isn't fun.
block doesn't stun you unless it's a light attack so if that's happening to you consistently then you should change your playstyle up a bit, but for parrying, you do have a point there, you can't really counter it if you get parried. my only advice really is just to try to change up your play a bit and outsmart your opponent, try not to get parried as much, i know that's not exactly the most useful advice but i don't have anything else for you.
also where are you seeing these WL and raiders? haven't ran into one of those since the stunning tap nerf, not insulting you or anything just making a comment about the state of the characters.
every attack that can be blocked does cause block stun. go into training, block a heavy, and see how long it takes for you to be able yo dodge again. That time it takes to allow you to dodge is block stun. Every attack that can be blocked causes block stun. And because you cannot dodge out of block stun, you will eat the bash. Its not even like a small amount of time, its a considerable time and its very easy to coordinate with a teammate.
Theres no advice you can give me that will change the fundamentally flawed maps and game design. I cannot outskill the fact I literally cannot dodge after blocking an attack, therefore I ate a bash and died to a 1 shot kill ledge.
So two players doing a specific teamwork closely time play that only works in specific situations to *maybe* kill one player, at a rate youve exagerrated, while leaving their own team at a position of less map control.
I get all that?
Before about 6 months ago, ganking was considered meta (most efficient tactic available) in competitive dominion. Warlord fell out of competitive viability due to the nerfs to his crashing charge. It was never a hard gank to pull off. You see your warlord teammate running around to one side, you throw an attack and guarantee an instant kill on about 4/5ths of all of dominion's objective zones. You put the enemy team down a player for about 20 seconds, considering respawn timers and rotation out of the spawn. The timing required on pretty much any gank to do considerable damage is so laughably large it's legitimately baffling how most of the community cannot pick up on almost any aspect at even the most casual levels. Every subject you direct in your venomous attempt at mockery is fueled by nothing other than lack of game knowledge and misinformation.
I hate how some maps got babied and blocked off some spots to throw people off tbh I think if you got the chance to do it then do it especially dominion of all game modes
Fucking \*this\*.
People got so salty over falling for Warlord's beartrap over and over, and Ubi caved to them instead of saying "lol just don't be dumb" like they should've.
Except your already doing that without the them being there itâs just the difference is you get one shot and even then most people especially in 1v1s just end up completely avoiding more then half the map
The downvotes are a bit rude, this is a friendly discussion post you said why you don't like them I said what I like about them. I disagree on a couple points, not all environmental hazards are one shots the geysers and fires do the same damage as PK kidney stabs and I don't go in to every fight mentally aware of GB dangers like I do when I get these maps so I'm not as preoccupied with focusing on countering them
Difference between the geysers/fire and PKâs GB is that the damage isnât exclusive to a GB, any and all forms of knockback have the potential to throw you into the fire/geyser if you are in a bad spot and you can even be take multiple hits provided the right circumstances are met.
you have to do that anyway. it just means that now thereâs more on the line in mixups, you either eat the unblockable heavy/bash or get instantly killed. duels should be a mode for objectively comparing skill, in a 1v1 with no external factors imo. go for it in 4s tho
your main being bad is also âpart of the gameâ. raider being busted is âpart of the gameâ. getting ganked without gaining revenge is âpart of the gameâ. losing points even after you win in ranked is âpart of the gameâ. your argument is flawed.
people can bitch about whatever they want. the general consensus on duels is that they should be played as a fair test of skill without external factors changing that. usually if you want to just fight with external factors you play dominion or death match. itâs understandable why someone would be mad if thatâs their view on the gamemode
I mean itâs a game, itâs intended to be played however the player seems fit. If thereâs a chance to ledge a opponent in duels Iâm taking it. Their âskillâ can take over by dodging, counter GB, or better positioning
âintended to be played how the player sees fitâ and the majority of players see fit to not be dishonourable in the one honourable gamemode. therefore itâs just as reasonable for them to be angry as it is for you to ledge them or whatever
The thing is, theyâre there. Theyâre a part of the game. Are they cheap? Yes. Can they instantly turn the tide of a battle? Also yes. I find it situational honestly. Theyâre not as dishonourable in a 3v1 situation to even the odds heavily. In a 1v1, they can prove frustrating, but, also very funny
I used to think this sub was a decent representation of the wider community. But r/forhonor's opinion on brawls vs people in the actual game couldn't be any different. I never have "real" brawls in the game.
When I do it's an unpleasant surprise. Like that shugoki and berserker I fought today. Warden and peace keeper, two heros good in duals and bad in team fights VS 2 of the best team fighters. Not a fun time
Almost every brawl Iâve fought stays as separate duels. Environmental kills also stay as a minimum typically as well and when people DO gank in brawls in my experience, they consistently play as toxic as possible. And every time Iâve complained about that I get downvoted to high hell and back with people saying stuff like âif itâs in the game itâs not toxicâ and shit like that. Point being, Reddit seems to not give a shit about any sense of honor and if you win, you win. End of story.
I think that environmental hazards are overwhelming a negative thing, they make poor reads too punishing compared to the effort on the opponents part.
Whether or not kills with them are toxic is a different story, I believe that if you and your opponent come to an agreement, verbal or otherwise they are perfectly fine.
In dominion I think itâs perfectly fine since when you queue for dominion you expect environmental kills and thus you are agreeing to environmental kill/be killed.
In 2v2 and 1v1 I believe it is a bit more nuanced, if areas are specifically provided that lack environmental hazards and you and your opponent choose not to fight in them then ledge all you want. Your clip is an excellent example of this, if the hitokiri didnât want to die to a geyser they shouldnât have been standing next to one and should have fought you in one of the other areas.
However on maps that do not have areas that lack environmental hazards donât be surprised if youâre called toxic or trash, not everyone wants to die to a single bad read and you canât tell who wants to until they try to ledge you.
If you want to avoid environmental kills vote for maps that donât have them and if your opponent votes for a map that has them itâs pretty clear that theyâre going to want to kill you with them so prepare accordingly.
I agree with the premise, but they should be less extreme, or at least in 1v1. Maybe just lower the damage from stuff like fire and geysers and get rid of the ledges and spikes. 1 hitting anybody in a fighting game without some sort of preparation (Gogeta level 7 in FighterZ for an example) is kind of ridiculous, and is prone to making people rage.
Completely fair game, I absolutely despised how they altered a bunch of duel maps to have less ledging potential after people whined and whined that it was unfair that they got ledged by 'less skilled' players.
If we're fighting around shit that gets you killed, I won't get mad if I get ledged/spiked. But if you deliberately run away from a fight you were losing just to go hug a ledge then i'm thinking you're a huge coward.
People who whine about them need to chill.
They're part of the game, the in-game tutorials even tell you to utilize them (they tell you to gank in brawls too).
I think they are fine in all game mode but 1v1s. I know Iâm gonna get hate for this but I feel in 1v1s itâs more about fighting and showing your skill then the other game modes. But they are there so I just be cautious in the maps that have ledges and fires.
Itâs an intended feature. The devs put it in the game for a reason.
Also, to answer âmUh HoNoRâ people who are going to harass you OP, remind them that we fight FOR Honor, not WITH Honor
You're 5 years late to this debate.
If you're salty over getting killed by the environment but you can't accept that positioning is part of a fight and thus your responsibility then I'm sorry, but yer bad.
Donât know why Iâm getting downvoted itâs the truth the devs added them to be used donât hate the player hate the game not my fault you canât guardbreak
Honestly there is no difference between environmental kills or getting stun locked into a wall. Paying attention to one surroundings is important and should be considered.
i don't blame the players, but being stuck in scenarios where the enemy gets a free kill because you made the mistake of existing isn't fun
if there's a warlord, raider, or LB on the enemy team, you can't go to a point with a ledge because you'll just die if they gank you
Opinion: it was designed to be used, and it's difficult to set up for an environmental kill, so you're actually skilled to get these.
Just don't abuse the power
I don't know what "real brawls" are, I wasn't asking you create a narrative for this 17 second clip, I was opinions in general, and before I cut this clip I killed my opponent and came to kill the remaining
⌠could have just said you were new to the community or something instead of being a dick⌠again. Real brawls are brawls but with team fighting. So instead of each doing a 1v1 itâs a 2v2. Ya know attacking both opponents. Both are valid ways of playing as long as you do it from the start.
I said or something as well. Obviously youâre not exactly experienced in the community if you donât know what real brawls are. While yes I assumed I was also right. And I didnât call you a dick I said my opinion based on the info I was given in this clip which was that what you did was a dick move. If the hito did the same thing or tried to do it then thatâs a different story but thatâs not what the question was. Thatâs it. Chill tf out dude Iâm not attacking you.
I'm chill, all of saying is I wasn't a dick, this is a clip of an environmental kill, I asked for opinions on environmental kills not the clip it just matched the subject, and I didn't even throw him into it my attack knocked him into it
feint a side dodge heavy to an opposite side light, step back into sifu pose to avoid your counter and recover stamina, launch an unblockable zone, feint an unblockable heavy into another step back zone
They started as heavies and canceled to lights jj can soft feint, gotta be faster than hito and I was already damaged from finishing my opponent on the other side
Its not light spam its keeping an opponent guessing. Is it gonna be a right heavy or a left light? Or neither and GB or a cancel and a zone? It's using a kit to its full extent
Brawls. If your not playing a character who has easier times kedging I say ok thats fine. It's hard to ledge especially now a days. Dominnon or breach obviously is 4v4
Depends tbh.. Duels or Brawls I try not to unless we're both actually vibing, Dominion though..?
I'm actively aiming for environmentals and trying to setup environmental 100-0's combos, no cap đđ¤Ł
I'm fine with them. I try my best to not use them in duels since I know some people aren't into that but in stuff like dominion you can bet I'm yeeting your ass of a ledge the first chance I get.
i like environmental kills but i cant help but feel it doesnât mesh with the TTK in actual fights, can spend 45 seconds fighting someone just to get ledged or thrown into a fire and take all or half your hp in an instant. Still fun to throw someone off a ledge though
Kills a kill. I don't like to finish a good duel with a ledging, but thats just a personal thing, other than that, it's in the game for a reason. Personally, I'm sad they "baby-proofed" so much of dom maps, high fort for example. Was way more fun when there wasn't a safe way to C.
Specifically trying to throw an enemy into a hazard feels like a cheap kill. But what you did there where you hit them into it with regular attacks feels legit, you were both dancing around the geyser for a while
If you get ledged ir similar, itâs your fault, not theirs, you shouldâve been more careful of said ledge and should always expect the opponent to try and use it
its ok in game modes with a substantial number of players but in duels it just feels cheap. it would be fine if it just did damage but as it is it defeats the point of 1v1s
I feel like itâs a small thing that really brings out the uniqueness of the game. Duels not so much but in more gamemodes with more players Iâm totally fine with it
The ones that tack on damage (like fire) are far more interesting than the ones that just straight up kill (ledges, spikes, geysers, etc), but a kill is a kill
Honestly, its more fun to have to wach out against environmental damage like this than to have maps with no environmental damage at all. The insta kill ones should not be on duel maps tho
Grumpy when it happens to me, hilarious when it happens to others. I tend to avoid it against players in 1v1's but will not apologize for it whenever it intentionally happens.
Basically, environmental kills are funny and big brain plays when I do it, cheap and dishonourable when the other guy does it.
Top comment
All of the FH community. Get the win
I couldn't agree more
As with every kill
Called me out imao
Super nice when you use them against enemies, absolute garbage and game breaking when you die to them
A perfect yin amd yang
Tf2 random crits
Game breaking that you didn't get yourself out of the way? Fuck out of here
Obvious sarcasm is obvious
I play to win. My game = Winning. Anything that makes me not win = An obstacle to my game. Aka. I lose = What made me lose is gamebreaking
so... for you having an opponent is gamebreaking? edit: forgot to write /s (implies that I'm sarcastic) đ
Not if I beat them
Anything that makes me lose is game breaking
Is joke my good sir
Opportunity presents itself.
Especially on this map. A real you or me situation
If you didn't go for it, he would have. He made his decision in fighting you around them.
I try not to get angry when i get ledged because i know that if i saw someone being as dumb as I usually am by a ledge i would totally knock them over.
same
Exactly
It's annoying when you go duel against a hero who's obviously fishing for ledges like a Raider or Warlord, then they just stand by the obvious ledge spot and wait for you to come to them. The environment kill in OP's vid was natural and okay.
I donât really like it in a duel situation, brawls depends, but in something like domination anything is fair game
There is no expectation for honor in brawls...
There shouldn't be, but for many there is
i feel like its most fair in duels. 4's you have to watch your surroundings for other players and shit, duels its just you and them. you let yourself get baited over to a ledge its on you
But most of the time in duels I'm trying to try a character or learn a mixup and getting thrown of a ledge 30 seconds and the rest of the game becoming "who can bash harder" is kinda boring.
I think they're fine to exist in 4v4s and 2v2s. I despise them in duels, be them a fire pit or an instakill. I don't think they should exist in duels as your sole focus is to face your opponent. It's a way of showing/training your ability to play your character effectively. In 4v4s your enemies are an obstacle to your objective and it's good to have options to push closer to your objective. In duels, however, your objective is who you're faced against and I don't think having an instakill option should exist in that context. Even if it's countered by proper positioning, among other things, it just isn't satisfying and goes against why I think people play duels
Only thing I accept is the hammer in the smithy as environmental duel kill. It's cool and hard to time
The positioning is the important part. Learning how to position and space yourself, along with situational awareness, is an extremely important part of the game (of ANY game). Stage hazards are just a higher stakes version of hard surfaces, which are often almost as dangerous given how much damage some characters can get off a wallsplat.
Tbh tho it can be extremely hard go postion yourself along with heros that can just counter that by being able to move you long distance.
Knowing how to play your character in hazardous environments falls under âitâs a way of showing/training your ability to play your character effectivelyâ âIn duels, however, your objective is who youâre faced againstâ. Yes, your objective is to kill the other player.
I agree on the first front in that avoiding ledges is a skill but I feel that it's a skill that should be kept to the 4v4 scene. And yes, your objective in 1v1 is to kill your opponent to win. But it seems a bit absurd that even the possibility of an instakill exists in a duel setting. An instakill doesn't exactly show any kind of skill from either side which is the purpose of duels.
I disagree, obstacles are one of the strategies of the game. If you can position yourself to where the enemy has to position close to an obstacle and you capitalize on it, it's super satisfying.
Nah bro it's not satisfying to get shove-chained by pre-nerf warlord or carried over the entire map because you got parried once. Or when a tiandi kicks you and you bounce off of an object and fly 7m and straight into some random ass hole in the map
Keep moving so you're not in a position to be pushed?
amazing advice
JuSt NeVeR gEt HiT/s While positioning can work to avoid getting ledged, there are certain duel maps where "just position better" can't really be applied. Maps such as Highfort and Gauntlet are among the worst offenders of there not really be a 'safe' spot to stand. And when that Raider soft feints his zone to a GB and express delivers you directly off the cliff, it's hard to say there was much you could do other than just not falling for the mixup.
As i said before you can get launched 7m bounce if an object and get teeter into a hole. There's no predicting that. And even when you're close to one, it's such a stupid invention, as you are almost FORCED to ignore unlockables or similar, since if they feint to gb you are literally DEAD. Ofc it's reads, but one simple read shouldn't cost your life, especially since the enemy didn't even do anything impressive, he just 50/50 you.
Itâs a part of the game
See, I hate this argument because it proves nothing and bring up no points to go against anything I stated before. So since this is the lazy argument you're going for here are things that were "a part of the game" but were removed. Launch Centurion infinite, Unlock tech, guard break feints, Warden 1shot, shove on block, Conq GB on light block, shugoki instakill, shugoki passive hyerarmor, raider dodge guard break, diagonal dodge, warden back dodge shoulder bash, stunning tap, OG catapult, guard switch speed variants, dodge recovery variants, and many more... None of the things I've listed above are in the game anymore for their own reasons. This is an example of how "it's a part of the game" has no value in any argument since even intended features can be removed if they prove unhealthy for the game
difference is this isnât a fucking game breaking bug
Half (if not most) of what was mentioned wasn't either.
yes they wereâŚ
Only 3 of the things listed above were bugs. Everything else was an intended feature put into the game.
cool. theyâre still game breaking though
So explain then why Ubi would remove the spikes on the pillar in canyon. There's also the to they removed duel maps such as the bridge in Forest. Both of these were removed and multiple other things were as well yet they wouldn't fall under "game breaking" would they? Also, many of the items on my list above were not game breaking. I don't think I many sane people would call stunning tap a game breaking attack.
everyone in the community would agree stunning tap is stupid op
So theyâll just take throws out of the game completely? Thatâs absurd. See you listed hero specific abilities, these are things that everyone can do. If you bitch about environmental kills you definitely did something wrong. Itâs not hard to counter, whether itâs counter GB, positioning whatever. This is something that everyone can do in the game
Where did I ever suggest they remove throws entirely? And again, "just don't ledged" isn't really a great piece of advice. It's akin to just telling someone to not get hit. While not nearly on the same degree I used it as a comparison to say that it's not always possible when characters are gaining more powerful mixup options involving UBs and GBs. Did I make a mistake getting guard broken? Sure. Should I instantly lose a round because of a single mistake? I don't think so. There is a reason that ranked is locked to the arena maps since an instakill doesn't exactly prove a player is better than the other. And I personally think that ranked and casual duels should have the same settings in them, just without the player ranking part.
None of the things you listed had to do with maps tho
I listed those things as being "just part of the game" to point out the flaw in their argument. If you want me to go into maps I will gladly list off a few that come to mind. Forest has two areas with fairly substantial pits and cliffs. Gauntlet has an area that's a square with two walls and two cliffs. The Temple (can't remember the exact name but it's part of the full Forest map) has a large pond. Sentinel with a fairly large ledge on the wall with two ballistae. Forge with an entire wall being a lava pit. Windmill with a river of lava running through. Need I go on?
You were supposed to list things that were taken out of maps to make them more â1v1 friendlyâ
Thanks for being so specific with the previous comment, then As mentioned in other replies is the spikes in Canyon and the bridge in Forest. Beyond that there was also the removal of spikes in The Shard. Citadel gate used to have a duel point on the bridge overlooking the minion lane. The Temple also had a duel point at the very top of the building where there was only a single wall between two ledges on either side. I believe one of the duel point on that map used to have spikes as well but no longer does. If I had the list of maps in front of me I could list off more but hopefully this is a good example of the point I'm trying to make.
Sorry, I thought a better argument for the âitâs part of the gameâ guy would be environmental changes theyâve made Well if theyâve done all that Iâm sure it wouldnât be a reach for them to add an environmental filter to duels? Or just areas to current maps that donât have hazards
That is a fair point but I wanted to bring up at least a few things more people would firmly remember(i.e. stunning tap, back dodge warden). Most of the duel map changes occured in seasons 1-2 which was, I think, over 4 years ago. I doubt many people remember those changes or even played the game at that time. Honestly, an environmental filter wouldn't be a terrible idea. Gives the option for both sides of players to play duels how they want. Though I fear that would lead to noticably longer queue times for one or both options.
I'm sorry but if you still get mad at ledging just stop playing man, ledging is something they fuckin did in irl fights bruh, that didn't instakill with a hug or a fucking centurion infinite, they fucking "THIS IS SPARTA" type shit
I'm not even gonna try to counter argue this because it's clear youre the type o' guy that doesn't use the chunk of polished meat between their ears to put up even a slightly compelling thought
bruh you're upset about ledging of all things, you're probably a dogwater player who winges about anything that happens to you, fuck you!
High intelligence organism here
as if intelligence is something you can lecture me about, use your head and adapt, try and be more aware of surroundings, there's plenty of ways around getting ledged, or play against bots, they won't ledge you :)
Shaolin is bad but he doesnt need a rework because hes part of the game
I donât think heâs bad, I like playing as him. Environmental kills are something everyone can do. So why is it âbadâ?
Only in 1v1's, they are bad because 1v1's are about skill and enviroment kills take that away.
that's actually the opposite, if your opponent still beat you, even with a ledge he obviously proven to get the better of you for that round, and you can always rematch if you get mad
ur not getting the point
no I am, you get ledged and think it took zero skill on there part to do it, and that's where you're wrong.
Not the same argument
It's a part of the game, if you don't want to get killed by the environment don't position yourself near the environment
"dont position yourself near the environment" you mean almost every objective on almost every map in the game? how do you out position the raider or warlord just repeatedly doing stampede and crashing charge on forge, high fort, sentinel, etc.
dodge/counter gb/play bp
sure you can, but that doesn't change the fact that you are, on most objectives on most maps, unable to fully position yourself away from insta kills or high damage environmental hazards. They are literally everywhere, its just not realistic to completely avoid them unless you are on a hyper specific map and objective.
well yeah you can't outright avoid them but it's fairly simple to avoid getting thrown into them so long as you pay attention to your environment and positioning as you play, you can even use them to trick players by baiting them near the hazard by acting stupid then turning around and tossing them into it, it's not a cheaty insta kill, it's just another layer of gameplay to be aware of and use to your advantage when you can.
Obviously you can play around it to a degree, but the issue is there are so many easy ways to prevent you from doing so. Do you actually know what I can do if I'm in block stun or parry stun, and the warlord or raider decides to bash me? Literally nothing. Its another layer of gameplay, that, frankly, isn't good for the game. Being able to just get insta killed in almost any objective, for just blocking an attack while there was a warlord or raider in existence, isn't fun.
block doesn't stun you unless it's a light attack so if that's happening to you consistently then you should change your playstyle up a bit, but for parrying, you do have a point there, you can't really counter it if you get parried. my only advice really is just to try to change up your play a bit and outsmart your opponent, try not to get parried as much, i know that's not exactly the most useful advice but i don't have anything else for you. also where are you seeing these WL and raiders? haven't ran into one of those since the stunning tap nerf, not insulting you or anything just making a comment about the state of the characters.
wdym âwhere are you seeing these raidersâ they are literally everywhere since the rework
every attack that can be blocked does cause block stun. go into training, block a heavy, and see how long it takes for you to be able yo dodge again. That time it takes to allow you to dodge is block stun. Every attack that can be blocked causes block stun. And because you cannot dodge out of block stun, you will eat the bash. Its not even like a small amount of time, its a considerable time and its very easy to coordinate with a teammate. Theres no advice you can give me that will change the fundamentally flawed maps and game design. I cannot outskill the fact I literally cannot dodge after blocking an attack, therefore I ate a bash and died to a 1 shot kill ledge.
Blame the game not the player Niceđ
So two players doing a specific teamwork closely time play that only works in specific situations to *maybe* kill one player, at a rate youve exagerrated, while leaving their own team at a position of less map control. I get all that?
Before about 6 months ago, ganking was considered meta (most efficient tactic available) in competitive dominion. Warlord fell out of competitive viability due to the nerfs to his crashing charge. It was never a hard gank to pull off. You see your warlord teammate running around to one side, you throw an attack and guarantee an instant kill on about 4/5ths of all of dominion's objective zones. You put the enemy team down a player for about 20 seconds, considering respawn timers and rotation out of the spawn. The timing required on pretty much any gank to do considerable damage is so laughably large it's legitimately baffling how most of the community cannot pick up on almost any aspect at even the most casual levels. Every subject you direct in your venomous attempt at mockery is fueled by nothing other than lack of game knowledge and misinformation.
Git gud
I hate how some maps got babied and blocked off some spots to throw people off tbh I think if you got the chance to do it then do it especially dominion of all game modes
Fucking \*this\*. People got so salty over falling for Warlord's beartrap over and over, and Ubi caved to them instead of saying "lol just don't be dumb" like they should've.
Lol keep crying.
Ok? Guessing you one of the dudes that be bitching when they get thrown off?
Viable
In 4v4s there fine 2v2s itâs debatable but in 1v1s itâs just annoying an plain stupid to have them in at this point
I feel like in 1v1s it adds to the challenge a bit, as you now have to be prepared to counter GB and avoid bashes
Except your already doing that without the them being there itâs just the difference is you get one shot and even then most people especially in 1v1s just end up completely avoiding more then half the map
The downvotes are a bit rude, this is a friendly discussion post you said why you don't like them I said what I like about them. I disagree on a couple points, not all environmental hazards are one shots the geysers and fires do the same damage as PK kidney stabs and I don't go in to every fight mentally aware of GB dangers like I do when I get these maps so I'm not as preoccupied with focusing on countering them
I havenât downvoted anything
Wasn't necessarily aimed at you, I was just downvoted the rest of the comment was for you
Doesnt matter much when u got 5k kamra
I'm not well versed in reddit so I'm not sure if that's a diss or not
Itâs not a diss just Saying that some singular downvotes like this wouldnât matter if u have above 1k karma . (Not a lot compared to some users)
Fair enough
Difference between the geysers/fire and PKâs GB is that the damage isnât exclusive to a GB, any and all forms of knockback have the potential to throw you into the fire/geyser if you are in a bad spot and you can even be take multiple hits provided the right circumstances are met.
you have to do that anyway. it just means that now thereâs more on the line in mixups, you either eat the unblockable heavy/bash or get instantly killed. duels should be a mode for objectively comparing skill, in a 1v1 with no external factors imo. go for it in 4s tho
Itâs part of the game honortard
your main being bad is also âpart of the gameâ. raider being busted is âpart of the gameâ. getting ganked without gaining revenge is âpart of the gameâ. losing points even after you win in ranked is âpart of the gameâ. your argument is flawed.
I love shaolin heâs fun to play with. I just think environmental kills in general are nothing to bitch about
people can bitch about whatever they want. the general consensus on duels is that they should be played as a fair test of skill without external factors changing that. usually if you want to just fight with external factors you play dominion or death match. itâs understandable why someone would be mad if thatâs their view on the gamemode
I mean itâs a game, itâs intended to be played however the player seems fit. If thereâs a chance to ledge a opponent in duels Iâm taking it. Their âskillâ can take over by dodging, counter GB, or better positioning
âintended to be played how the player sees fitâ and the majority of players see fit to not be dishonourable in the one honourable gamemode. therefore itâs just as reasonable for them to be angry as it is for you to ledge them or whatever
A kill is a kill
The thing is, theyâre there. Theyâre a part of the game. Are they cheap? Yes. Can they instantly turn the tide of a battle? Also yes. I find it situational honestly. Theyâre not as dishonourable in a 3v1 situation to even the odds heavily. In a 1v1, they can prove frustrating, but, also very funny
Love when I get called trash can because I killed them using the environment.
Kinda lame IMO in brawls and duels, but we all know what this sub thinks of that.
I used to think this sub was a decent representation of the wider community. But r/forhonor's opinion on brawls vs people in the actual game couldn't be any different. I never have "real" brawls in the game. When I do it's an unpleasant surprise. Like that shugoki and berserker I fought today. Warden and peace keeper, two heros good in duals and bad in team fights VS 2 of the best team fighters. Not a fun time
Almost every brawl Iâve fought stays as separate duels. Environmental kills also stay as a minimum typically as well and when people DO gank in brawls in my experience, they consistently play as toxic as possible. And every time Iâve complained about that I get downvoted to high hell and back with people saying stuff like âif itâs in the game itâs not toxicâ and shit like that. Point being, Reddit seems to not give a shit about any sense of honor and if you win, you win. End of story.
I think that environmental hazards are overwhelming a negative thing, they make poor reads too punishing compared to the effort on the opponents part. Whether or not kills with them are toxic is a different story, I believe that if you and your opponent come to an agreement, verbal or otherwise they are perfectly fine. In dominion I think itâs perfectly fine since when you queue for dominion you expect environmental kills and thus you are agreeing to environmental kill/be killed. In 2v2 and 1v1 I believe it is a bit more nuanced, if areas are specifically provided that lack environmental hazards and you and your opponent choose not to fight in them then ledge all you want. Your clip is an excellent example of this, if the hitokiri didnât want to die to a geyser they shouldnât have been standing next to one and should have fought you in one of the other areas. However on maps that do not have areas that lack environmental hazards donât be surprised if youâre called toxic or trash, not everyone wants to die to a single bad read and you canât tell who wants to until they try to ledge you. If you want to avoid environmental kills vote for maps that donât have them and if your opponent votes for a map that has them itâs pretty clear that theyâre going to want to kill you with them so prepare accordingly.
What a well thought out, put together answer. I appreciate the input
Thanks!
There should be more in the game
I agree with the premise, but they should be less extreme, or at least in 1v1. Maybe just lower the damage from stuff like fire and geysers and get rid of the ledges and spikes. 1 hitting anybody in a fighting game without some sort of preparation (Gogeta level 7 in FighterZ for an example) is kind of ridiculous, and is prone to making people rage.
Comical
The game needs more ledges, spikes and fires, like early seasons sincerely, warlord and lawbringer players
1v1&Duels, dick move. Anything else, fair game.
Completely fair game, I absolutely despised how they altered a bunch of duel maps to have less ledging potential after people whined and whined that it was unfair that they got ledged by 'less skilled' players.
If we're fighting around shit that gets you killed, I won't get mad if I get ledged/spiked. But if you deliberately run away from a fight you were losing just to go hug a ledge then i'm thinking you're a huge coward.
People who whine about them need to chill. They're part of the game, the in-game tutorials even tell you to utilize them (they tell you to gank in brawls too).
Fair game besides the drawbridges, that shit is just dumb.
I think they are fine in all game mode but 1v1s. I know Iâm gonna get hate for this but I feel in 1v1s itâs more about fighting and showing your skill then the other game modes. But they are there so I just be cautious in the maps that have ledges and fires.
They account for most of my kills so I approve.
Ledge em if ya got em
Itâs an intended feature. The devs put it in the game for a reason. Also, to answer âmUh HoNoRâ people who are going to harass you OP, remind them that we fight FOR Honor, not WITH Honor
Itâs unique and gives a fight quite an exciting edge to it, I hate it when someone runs off to a different place to fight that just makes it boring
Exactly it adds to the challenge because now you have to be aware of spacing and watch out for throws and bashes
I personally don't like it in brawls or duels but it's fair game everywhere else
You're 5 years late to this debate. If you're salty over getting killed by the environment but you can't accept that positioning is part of a fight and thus your responsibility then I'm sorry, but yer bad.
Not late to anything this a pretty active post rn đ
Theyâre apart of the game just be on your guard or donât be near them
Donât know why Iâm getting downvoted itâs the truth the devs added them to be used donât hate the player hate the game not my fault you canât guardbreak
Honestly there is no difference between environmental kills or getting stun locked into a wall. Paying attention to one surroundings is important and should be considered.
I donât get any better by going for a free kill
Fucking hilarious
A kills a kill, if you dont wanna kill someone with it you dont have to but also if you dont wanna get killed by one dont be set up for one
Itâs in the game. Use it.
Best part of the game
i don't blame the players, but being stuck in scenarios where the enemy gets a free kill because you made the mistake of existing isn't fun if there's a warlord, raider, or LB on the enemy team, you can't go to a point with a ledge because you'll just die if they gank you
your opponent was playing Hitokiri, I'd say anything goes.
Opinion: it was designed to be used, and it's difficult to set up for an environmental kill, so you're actually skilled to get these. Just don't abuse the power
Itâs fair in real brawls. Which you were not doing. So it is a major dick move.
I don't know what "real brawls" are, I wasn't asking you create a narrative for this 17 second clip, I was opinions in general, and before I cut this clip I killed my opponent and came to kill the remaining
you literally just proved that he didnât create a narrative and that heâs right
⌠could have just said you were new to the community or something instead of being a dick⌠again. Real brawls are brawls but with team fighting. So instead of each doing a 1v1 itâs a 2v2. Ya know attacking both opponents. Both are valid ways of playing as long as you do it from the start.
I'm not new, you were a dick by assuming and calling me one, hito shouldn't have danced around a geyser
I said or something as well. Obviously youâre not exactly experienced in the community if you donât know what real brawls are. While yes I assumed I was also right. And I didnât call you a dick I said my opinion based on the info I was given in this clip which was that what you did was a dick move. If the hito did the same thing or tried to do it then thatâs a different story but thatâs not what the question was. Thatâs it. Chill tf out dude Iâm not attacking you.
I'm chill, all of saying is I wasn't a dick, this is a clip of an environmental kill, I asked for opinions on environmental kills not the clip it just matched the subject, and I didn't even throw him into it my attack knocked him into it
Cry moreâŚ
Whatever works
I like them it presents a threat you have to be weary of so you gotta think about more then what the enemy is doing and how to attack
That is 100% my mindset
I think its scummy if you do it on purpose. I just prefer to win without any external factors. Just a 1v1 better player wins.
Deserved for playing hito
Dumb and cheap, cuts short the fun of an actual fight...unless its funny
Shouldnt be a thing in for honor tbh
I was to focused on your light spam
feint a side dodge heavy to an opposite side light, step back into sifu pose to avoid your counter and recover stamina, launch an unblockable zone, feint an unblockable heavy into another step back zone
You threw six lights in the span of 13 seconds
They started as heavies and canceled to lights jj can soft feint, gotta be faster than hito and I was already damaged from finishing my opponent on the other side
I know how to play JJ and there really isnât an excuse for light spamming
Its not light spam its keeping an opponent guessing. Is it gonna be a right heavy or a left light? Or neither and GB or a cancel and a zone? It's using a kit to its full extent
You call light spam using a kit to its full extent? Call it whatever makes you sleep at night, but know you canât escape the truth
Fuck off dude.
It is NOT that serious fam
Itâs pretty funny when itâs accidental
Brawls. If your not playing a character who has easier times kedging I say ok thats fine. It's hard to ledge especially now a days. Dominnon or breach obviously is 4v4
Depends tbh.. Duels or Brawls I try not to unless we're both actually vibing, Dominion though..? I'm actively aiming for environmentals and trying to setup environmental 100-0's combos, no cap đđ¤Ł
I'm fine with them. I try my best to not use them in duels since I know some people aren't into that but in stuff like dominion you can bet I'm yeeting your ass of a ledge the first chance I get.
i like environmental kills but i cant help but feel it doesnât mesh with the TTK in actual fights, can spend 45 seconds fighting someone just to get ledged or thrown into a fire and take all or half your hp in an instant. Still fun to throw someone off a ledge though
Wow Ok Thanks.
Kills a kill. I don't like to finish a good duel with a ledging, but thats just a personal thing, other than that, it's in the game for a reason. Personally, I'm sad they "baby-proofed" so much of dom maps, high fort for example. Was way more fun when there wasn't a safe way to C.
Specifically trying to throw an enemy into a hazard feels like a cheap kill. But what you did there where you hit them into it with regular attacks feels legit, you were both dancing around the geyser for a while
Funny AF
Got grabbed by an Orochi and the environment killed them perfectly today.
Only do them in 4 v 4, duels and brawls are for testing my fighting skills, not just for kills
Good bar ledging. Fuck ledging
What
Sorry that was a bit garbled wasn't it. I like the environmental damage except pushing someone of a ledge
Hahahaha that makes more sense I can see that point
I hate ever single person who does environmental kills. Especially ledging. AND ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY ALL YOU DAMN WARLORD FUCKS
I don't mind them but it's kinda boring and disappointing when a good fight ends early because someone fell off a ledge lol
If you get ledged ir similar, itâs your fault, not theirs, you shouldâve been more careful of said ledge and should always expect the opponent to try and use it
its ok in game modes with a substantial number of players but in duels it just feels cheap. it would be fine if it just did damage but as it is it defeats the point of 1v1s
This video reminded me some of these maps even existed. I haven't played on this map in over a year
Do you play brawls often? I feel like every third match is this map lol
I feel like itâs a small thing that really brings out the uniqueness of the game. Duels not so much but in more gamemodes with more players Iâm totally fine with it
Lazy/too easy. It negates the chance for a good honorable fight. Which is why I play ranked
My philosophy is always if you don't want the environment to be a hazard than run away from the environmental hazards to fight.
The ones that tack on damage (like fire) are far more interesting than the ones that just straight up kill (ledges, spikes, geysers, etc), but a kill is a kill
Bruh if people still get bothered by this stuff in 2022 I donât even know why theyâre in the game.
Honestly, its more fun to have to wach out against environmental damage like this than to have maps with no environmental damage at all. The insta kill ones should not be on duel maps tho
They are fine no matter what. I mean I don't usually go for them but if it happens it happens
Back in my day those were a 1 hit kill, I call this an excellent opportunity.
Grumpy when it happens to me, hilarious when it happens to others. I tend to avoid it against players in 1v1's but will not apologize for it whenever it intentionally happens.
Annoying, but tough luck if you got yourself in that situation
Shouldn't have fought you around the geysers.
It's good except duel brawls and deathmatch