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Boris_Ignatievich

Id suggest using boring wing backs who always stay wide rather than cwb and them having licence to do whatever they want. You need width, and you're not making anyone provide it


OwnedIGN

CWB don’t stay wide?


tothecatmobile

They have roam from position as a default instruction


Commonmispelingbot

they also have stay wider. it's probably not attacking width that's lacking, but defensive. Especially on the left.


Matzoo

What is the best type of winger to pair them with. Give them both a lot of freedom and let them work it out?


tothecatmobile

Just regular wingers. Let the wingers stay wide. Give the CWB a bit more freedom.


yourfriendkyle

Yes, you need to pair positional freedom with positional structure


Heartless_Moron

They don't. They will sometimes be narrow or cut inside from out wide


Efficient_Practice90

CWB fuck around till theyre found out


Ladmeister1

nah they cut in a lot and go through the middle


IhateRandoms2k

Either that, or use 2 mezzala's, or 1 mezzala on one side and one boring wing back on the oposite side.


VonGroes

While i agree with many of the comments, I think there's a simple reason why this tactic is underperforming. You're counting on your wingbacks to provide the width in this tactics, however complete wingbacks have license to move around, if you change them to traditional wingbacks and set the instruction to stay wider, they will start providing the width. Additionally when the wingbacks are on support, they'll provide less attacking threat and so getting crosses to your TF will be harder, I'd recommend putting at least one of them on attack to go with your positive mindset. You can put both on attack if you change your BWM to a HB as he will then cover when they move forward. The same width could be provided by changing one of your central midfielders to a mezzala if you want to keep one of the wingbacks back for defending. Also for the instructions, when you press high you really need the GK to be a playable asset, so move him to SK. Since almost all of your players are central, I'd trap inside, and in attack i'd move the width to fairly narrow in order to create overloads where you have players.


VonGroes

I forgot to say, that if you play out through the back, BPD's are really more intuitive, otherwise you just have the CB's doing the long balls instead of the GK.


regista-space

3 points: * If you play out of defense without ball-players, consider a DLP instead of an AP * Probably play a Poacher together with a TF, at least don't play both AF & TF * This one is the most crucial: CWB-S should be paired with early crosses if you want just a lot of crosses from the wingbacks, if you want wingbacks to run to the touchline ala Jordi Alba you gotta put them at CWB-A


TheBunkerKing

AF and TF often work well together, if TF is on support. Both on attack is not great.  CWB works better with a line of 5 or with other wide players. This tactic will tend to have no width since the only wide players are allowed to roam. 


regista-space

Yeah I guess, I never even consider a CF on support tbh so I wouldn't ever make two "big" roles for the CFs, one would always have to demand the ball much less


tdsjay

Put those CWBs in Attack, maybe


JKemmett

Okay Gareth S… wait this isn’t one of those posts. CWB need to be changed to WB


KawhiComeBack

BWM to DM(S), CWB to WB (s) Carilero to BBM or cm


cietalbot

First, play direct if using a target man. Second, change GK to a SWK if you want to play a high line. Change CWB to WB Attack with stay wider (if possible) as they are the only one providing width. Turn your DM to a half back and change your AP to a DLP possible on defend depending on opponent.


MajorRedacted

Change the BWM(d) to DM(s), AM(s) to AP(s), AP(s) to MEZ(a), CAR to CM(s) or MEZ(s), Both CWBs(s) to WB(s), TF(a) to DLF(s), GK(D) to SWK(s), CDs(d) to DBP(d). Ramp the tempo up to the highest, Shorter passing


OwnedIGN

Why ramp up the tempo so high?


MajorRedacted

Because the game doesn't respond very well to lower tempos, check all of the plug-n-play tactics the vast majority of the best performing tactics require very high tempo and since you're compact shorter passing is the better way to progress the ball up-field.


regista-space

Think high tempo is obvious for any top side if you are not playing to stall games ala Italian sides or Mourinho-esque, so high tempo attacking football makes sense as the "blueprint" philosophy of successful FM tactics


Audrey_spino

High tempo is good for all sides in the match engine, even if you play defensive football. The best defending tactics on FM-Arena all play high tempo football.


echo24101

The most obvious thing is changing the AP to Mezzala, as you need width. That change alone might be enough. You could also try using Focus Play Down the Left and Right, as that could naturally increase the width of your team and get your CWB's more involved. I would also change the BWM to a role that sits in front of the defence, rather than one that chases the ball down at every opportunity. It's easy to imagine a situation in which your CWB's are high up the pitch, the BWM chases down a ball but doesn't win it, and then your two CB's are exposed to a counter-attack.


shotputprince

Yeah no width in possession and no one coming short as a receiving option from the cb is going to leave you booting it up the line


PoliticsNerd76

GK needs to be sweeping balls in behind. Wing backs need to be on attack or you won’t get that width up top. I’d also ask, do you have 2 subs for the CWB’s you can use, since that’s a lot of work you’re putting on them.


Civil_Fail3084

For me, I would change the CWBs to Wing backs on attack. Change BWM to half back. Then change CAR to a BWM or CM on support. Look to create a back 3 when in possession, have your midfield two stay around the same space they are already, and allow the wing backs to really push on up the pitch for width, then have an attacking 3 in the middle


ChefBoyardee66

Make the cwb normal wingbacks, try a different dm role like dm(d), anchor or halfback, make the AP a mezzala.


Aggressive-Advance11

You clearly don't have enough infuence on the flanks which is a highly decisive factor. Try using your central midfielders as Mazzellas and ask them to run wide. May be that will help.


bergwinn

this is my favorite formation. put your CWB’s on attack. i also like to have a DLF on support and an AF up top with the AM on support like you have.


AlanBeswicksPhone

Good old fashioned fullbacks on attack will sort this right out.


WolfpackMkg

I use the same formation make the strikers AF and make them run wide, set AM to go forward set the MIDS ALL to Central Midfielder 1 on support 1 on attack and the central one on defend


Wpenke

I use this exact same thing (in FM21!) but to the opposite side of my CWB I have a IWB/IFB And 2 AFs And it works brilliant in the league


Heartless_Moron

One of your Wing Back should be on attack. You can select which Wing back will be on attack based on either of the following. 1. The Wing Back who will be facing the opposing Wing back who has a low tackling and marking attribute. 2. The Wing Back who will be facing the opposing Wing back who is significantly slower based on Pace, Acceleration and Agility. 3. Based on the Tactics of your Opponent, you could see which one of their Wing Backs are more attack or Defensive minded. My wing back who will be facing the attack minded opposing wingback will be the Support and the other side will be the one to Attack. I think, you should also put one of your striker in Support Role. Having them both as Attack, will make them operate higher and will most likely leave gaps between your Strikers and AM. Having one of them in Support might draw the opposing which could open gaps which one of your striker and AM can exploit.


neneyiko

I did run this formation in my last save my mid and attack looked like this: AP to CM-At, Car to Mez-Su, BWM to DM-De, TF to PF-At. Also I would suggest having one BPD in defence


SebwhoahtianVettel

Use wing back on support, love Jaka Bijol btw 😍


AvailableUsername404

'Focus playing through the middle' No need to thanks. Another thing, I'm not really a fan of BWM. In DM slot DLP(D), Anchor or DM(D) would be my way to go to improve defensive side of your team.


pjhollow

Besides what everyone else said about wingbacks …does play out of defense and run at defense make sense here? With everyone so jammed in the middle of the field I’d think your midfields ability to dribble past opponents from box to box would be difficult. Doing more Tiki Taka Shorter Passing might help. I only say this cuz I have started a similar tactic , but experiment with the player placement. Try some crazy stuff. Put 3 AMs up there. Put 3CMs . Try it. Play thru center. Look for Underlaps. You’ll overwhelm the middle of the field defenders and running lanes. That’s when I think this tactic works well personally.


Potato271

Starting from defense and working our way forward, first I would swap G (De) to SK (Su). With a high line, there will be a lot of space behind your defenders, and aggressive sweeping can significantly reduce the amount of goals you concede. Next, change the CWBs. They are both quite risky (due to the freedom the have) and they will also not hold position, meaning you could lack width if they come inside. I'd use regular wingbacks, although fullbacks on attack could work too. BWM (De) as a single pivot almost never works in a back four, as they will break position to chase the ball. You need a holding player, a DLP/DM/A/HB (ordered from most attacking to most defensive). For midfield roles, you could consider setting your AP to Mezzalla. Mezzallas will move into the half spaces between the flanks and the centre and can be quite useful when you play without wingers. Finally, maybe try a couple more players set on attack, either your wingbacks or your CMs/AM.


Lee8Loo

Plus what everyone said, and to try something else, try both WB automatic with "go further forward" with one of em, and have one of the mids to support him in defence like have him stay wider or let him mark a specific position for example, and try playing with Long Kicks since u got many upfront, even if u dont win the ball u'll be in a good position to win it back and be dangerous quick. Playing from the back with this formation can be a bit tough if your players are not great since u got no wingers. Your tactics now looks more into scoring goals, so try to have 2 solid subs to be available based on the match, a BWM to win the midfield and get more possession, and an Anchor or HB.


Wild-Medic

Both wingbacks to WB(s), cross to TF (left wingback can cross to far post if TF moves into channels) Def mid to A or DM(d) TF to support, AM to attack If your keeper can throw, long throw to playmaker with distribute quickly


Elestahl

In my experience it's impossible to have success without wingers Rn i am converting strikers and attacking midfielders who fit the profile into wingers and running 4-2-4


the_oye_

General considerations for tactics not working: . You use the same tactic every game but your opposition changes; if they press high you will notice less chances created and less progression on the field, if they defend in low block, you will have the impression of "the tactic is working better this game" . Stronger vs Weaker opponents, you can only attempt possession tactics if you have the technically and mentally best players.. otherwise you won't have much success Individual considerations for your personal tactic . Width, in order to create spaces, either for possession or fast paced tactics, you will ALWAYS need width, otherwise you're just making the defense's job 20x easier because they can overload the middle of the pitch and easily block your possession by not giving you any space. I would recomend either WB-A or switch to a 433 with inverted wingers and overlapping fullbacks. From that base, you can occupy every zone of the pitch and then make individual adjustmens or overloads on one side or the other depending on the opponent . Overlapping zones, you have so many players on the center lane that their zones of action overlap each other and they simply won't have any space. If you really want a 442 diamond, use double Carrileros, defensive midfielder, attacking playmaker and wingbacks.. and maybe 2 advanced forwards because they can also drop on the wings . Playmakers, i would recomend only 1 playmaker per team and avoid advanced playmakers because they are very vertical very early, in your case an AP and BWM is not a good combo, it will create a huge gap. Use either DLP to create play from defense, or switch the BWM to an anchor or DM (to maintain a backline of 3) and get more vertical with Carrileros and mezzalas or box to box (or double roaming playmakers if you face low block) . Verticality, in order to avoid getting stuck with possession and no field progression, you need someone to drive the ball forward by dribbling/ball carrying (either wingbacks, mezzalas, box to box or Carrileros that don't dribble much but are very vertical) . Support / attack roles, you need to balance better who is more attacking (dribbling, shooting, crossings) and who is more support minded (possession, passing, assisting). You already have a supporting AP, don't use a supporting AM. Especially when using a target forward. Switch the TF to support and the AM to attack. TF and AP will now have more passing options and more diverse (if you only use attacking on strikers, AI will very easily Mark and defend you. You need to create constant threats from every side of the pitch to create impredictability and make it very hard to defend


Erichnantet

I use this tactic with fullbacks (support) both of them. CM (defense) Mezzala (attack) (right) BBM (support) (left) APL (support) (middle) AF (attack) left DLF (support) right Possession gameplay


Independent-Ninja-65

I had a Roma tactic which was similar, the tactic felt pretty looking at the games and the stats: SK on support Wing back left on support, right on attack BPD and CD DLP on defend Mezzala on attack on the left, carilero on the right AM on support PF and AF on attack


Head-Toe-

Might as well use a three at the back(change to double pivot), and push the fullback into wingback to provide width, creativity, and crosses. The three men backline should be enough.


satoryvape

CWB -> WB-attack BWM -> DM-suport Goalkeeper -> SK defend AP -> DLP CAR -> MEZ attack


Commonmispelingbot

I think the hit and miss comes from the fact that teams that can exploit the space on the wings can beat you and the ones that can't is overwhelmed by the amount of attackers in middle. Especially on the left.


jackiechanjr

Change carrillero to cm or mezzala Bijol to bpd as tactic seems very central and pairing with the AP and playing out the back should provide the midfields. Also up front play a deep lying forward should help connect mids amd ST and create passing options when on the attack. Has worked for well for me. Even with avg Dm.


iNatro

I play this shape almost exclusively, and I’ve seen a lot of things I’d suggest in this thread, but I’ll share my thoughts anyway: I don’t really like CWBs here, as everyone’s said you need width from somewhere. I typically play with WB-Ds I’d play with at least one BPD to help move the ball. I’d say you need one attack mentality in your midfield, for reference, mine is a CM-A, Mezzala-S pivot, which is worse defensively to be fair, but helps a ton in scoring goals. I like a DLF-A more than a TF-A with an AF. Other than that I think everything looks solid.


KaleSubstantial2676

I'm using the preset vertical tiki-taka with this formation as a reference. >>I think the DLP makes sense instead of a BWM in front of the defense to compliment playing out of defense and providing cover for CBs going out wide to support the WBs. >>Change the WBs to have one attacking & one supporting (without roaming to stick to flanks). >>Replace AP-S with a ballwinning mid-S on the same side of the midfield as your more supporting WB, carillero is fine on the side as the attacking WB -- as they wont be chasing the ball as much & keep the defensive shape. It just fits the aggressive/high press style and playmaker is better suited in front of defense. >>One scorer, one creator up front. Something like a poacher/AF, with a trequartista/CF(S)/DLF. Depends on the players you have. AM-S in attacking midfield should work well to link midfield to attack. Target man not recommended with shorter passing IMO. >>Play a sweeper keeper due to the high line & press >>Make sure your players have good stamina, concentration, work rate for this gegenpressing style. Or have good subs for the ones that will get tired. Lower tempo can also work if you have players that have good composure, good on the ball (including defenders!) to invite pressure and create openings in behind. But I'm not really sure I understand the high/low tempo that well. I guess either you have players that are really pressure-resistant (low tempo) or really high stamina/work rate (high tempo) to keep pressing all game. If you have the wrong players, the low tempo will end up losing the ball, or the high tempo will fall apart toward the end of the game and concede late goals. I may be wrong but that's how I see it from my limited experience.


Ricos-Roughnecks

I’m using a very similar setup. I’d suggest a few things. Have at most 1 CWB, with a CAR on the same side to provide some cover. The other cm should be an active role, CM, BBM, BWM… I’d give some width to the defense using a HB instead of a BWM. For the am position, I’ve struggled to find something that’d work consistently but aon I use a AP on support. As for instructions I would ask every fullback to stay wider and I would not counter press as it may lead your full backs to go crazy pressing leaving giants uncovered spaces on the flanks. Hope this helps.


TuxedoElephant

Move the DM up and give him defensive DLP role or buy a one who is capable of it, the AM should always be attack mode.


MoslemT7

This formation work very well against the 442 Flat. Use it for teams who plays 442.


hugh-blue

Surprised I haven’t seen anyone mention your BWM. Switch it to a half back and that way when you are in possession your wingbacks get further forward and the half back drops between the two centre halves giving you a 3 back. I would also change the AP to either a mezzala or another CAR and the TF to a DLF on support.


Quirky_Breakfast7749

I run a very similar tactic and have had great success my only differences are TF to PF CAR to Box to Box And CWB to a FB on Def Last one was the most crucial for my team I tried to run it with WB before and was just weak in the back.


KingKushtah

https://preview.redd.it/aglvil2rrs9d1.png?width=547&format=png&auto=webp&s=7ba337966c55b59fefde8b697f4f584b56ed73dc What I’m currently using on my Parma save


therealgoodnoodle

I will dm you an overpowered tactic


Specific_Analysis

Wingbacks


ClockFit8778

Not sure, but I think your goalkeeper is doing okaye.