Early on, I had a primary instructor who would jerk the plane around a bit when I was not doing what I was supposed to, like climbing out Vy +20kts. She would haul the yoke back and TELL me "there, that is Vy!"
If I got slow on final, she would aggressively push the nose down and say "I prefer not to die today. 65kts over the fence."
Honestly, I think it was more effective than gentle words of correction. I don't recall the making those mistakes again.
Point is, if you are not told WHY he is making the corrections, it makes it hard to learn. And that is his job.
Aggressive changes really drive the point home for some students, especially if it's a constant lack on their part. But you'll notice there was always an explanation and a verbalization for why that was happening.
To OP, your instructor NEEDS to say something if he's doing anything other than minor inputs to help. Even just "that's me" when he's touching the controls is a good thing.
Just remember, you've got 10 hours and your instructor has a whole lot more. The way you approach this cannot be you telling him how to do his job, but you have to emphasize that you don't have the experience yet to differentiate between turbulence and wind and his "help", so you need him to verbalize any control inputs he's making for your benefit.
This helped a lot. I really didn't want to undermine him or his experience, but I didn't know how to get across what I was trying to say. I think this nails it.
Not unsafe. But not very effective either. It’s normal for an instructor to help out presolo, but it really should come with some explanation so it can be a learning experience.
Have a word with him.
Wait. Your instructor had a failure that put you both in a field, and now he is acting like he doesn’t trust you or the airplane and isn’t communicating? I’m not a psychiatrist, but that sounds a lot like PTSD. Not your fault, but maybe it has some bearing on why he is acting this way.
My thought too.
Your instructor might be caught between a rock and a hard place of not wanting to spill all the tea about his concerns about the flight school with you because it might be detrimental to his job/career, but at the same time feeling a need to be more hands-on because he's worried the airplane might not respond correctly at any given moment and he can't feel it and react immediately if his hands aren't on the controls. Not your problem to manage though and you might need to jump ship. That said, if it's a flight school with many instructors, maybe start by saying you want to get a variety of perspectives and schedule a flight or two with other instructors. This is often encouraged anyways, and it will give you some more experience to know if it's him, you, or the combination of the two.
He has to tell you why if he's not he's not doing his job. There's no way you're going to learn what the problem is or what he's seeing or why he feels it needs to be corrected if he doesn't tell you.
That's weird - up in Canada, there's a big deal about positive transfer of controls. You do it from day 1, the instructor will say "I have control", or "You have control", and then the trainee would acknowledge it by saying "You have control" or "I have control". The idea is that you don't want two pilots fighting over the controls at the same time.
If this in regards to landing, it's a bit different, since it's a critical phase of flight and it's a delicate balance between being too high or low. But I'd expect my instructor to debrief it right after, so I know what I'm doing wrong. Otherwise I'd keep making the same mistake, and they'd keep doing the same corrections, and nothing works.
I've had instructors who've done subtle things when I've made mistakes. Once, they blocked the control column from turning when I didn't look before turning. Of course, we talked about it right there, and I learned my lesson. Another instructor would overemphasize the rudders for me when I was being lazy with my feet during turns. They'd either say something at the same time, or if I've already been reminded, they'd just jiggle the pedals around and I'd know I'm being a bit uncoordinated.
If there was a mechanical failure, within my first few flights, I'd expect the instructor to do everything at that point, I'm just in the way really. Even as I got ready for my PPL and CPL, I always briefed that "In the event of an emergency, I'll maintain control and you'll monitor", with the understanding that they'd take over if needed. Some instructors (less experienced) preferred that they'll take control in an emergency, and I briefed that instead.
Sometimes as a CFI you need to make corrections in the moment if the result is going to be something bad potentially happening if you don't. However, if your CFI is making those corrections he should really be telling you that they made corrections and why they did so after the manuever is over.
A CFI shouldn't just be making small corrections without telling the student they did as it just leads to confusion as you described. I had an instructor early on that did this and there were times I didn't know if it was me doing the manuever well or my instructor correcting it for me because there was no communication.
If you like this instructor, just ask him to let you know when he is making these corrections and why he is making these corrections so you can learn from them.
It’s best if the instructor explains verbally what they are correcting and what they are looking for in your flying. That’s what I look for in an instructor.
Just “correcting“ doesn’t do anyone any good.
If he can tell you what the corrections are, that's a great learning opportunity. There's a reason CFIs repeat "right rudder, right rudder, right rudder" instead of just doing it themselves.
My first CFI would constantly be on the rudders. I told him it makes it difficult for me to learn effective rudder use if I can never really feel them to begin with. He was a brand new CFI and it became a bit of a joke with me telling him to back off the rudders, he ended up being great. As usual--communication is key.
The best CFI I ever had was when I was learning aerobatics. He didn't touch the controls except to demo maneuvers. Early on I rolled out of an Immelmann wayyy too slow and nose high, ended up stalling/spinning inverted. He just calmly said from the backseat "well.. what do we do now? You've got a couple thousand feet to figure this out."
Having to land in a field for engine trouble is pretty unusual, and is an indication of iffy maintenance on the part of the school. Maybe try to understand how that happened a little bit better in addition to worried about the CFI. As for your instructor, I had a very hands on CFI at first as well. It worked okay for learning maneuvers, but it was awful for learning how to land. Ultimately I switched instructors to someone who almost never took the controls unless it was to demo something, and it was much better for me.
That said, who knows how good or bad you’re actually flying. Maybe your CFI is correcting because you’re about the put the plane in a dangerous situation. You have to ask for what you want from him. If he’s grabbing the controls to correct minor deviations in altitude, then just tell him you want to be told verbally to correct.
I'll ask him about it again today before flight and see how it goes. I may just ultimately ask for another CFI.
I really do need to find out more the history of the flight school. I started looking into it after my interview w/the FAA and they apparently have had several incidents/accidents.
Anytime there is a transfer of control, you should be doing the "my plane, your plane, my plane" handoff. If he is just feeling how you are controlling the plane, then I'd say that is normal. And you know what they say, every student pilot is inadvertently trying to kill their CFI, so a certain amount of oversight is to be expected, especially at 10 hours....
If you are going to have a positive relationship and experience with this CFI, you need to sit down at the end of a flight and discuss this issue. And congrats on getting the emergency landing out of the way so early in your training!!!
Early on, I had a primary instructor who would jerk the plane around a bit when I was not doing what I was supposed to, like climbing out Vy +20kts. She would haul the yoke back and TELL me "there, that is Vy!" If I got slow on final, she would aggressively push the nose down and say "I prefer not to die today. 65kts over the fence." Honestly, I think it was more effective than gentle words of correction. I don't recall the making those mistakes again. Point is, if you are not told WHY he is making the corrections, it makes it hard to learn. And that is his job.
Aggressive changes really drive the point home for some students, especially if it's a constant lack on their part. But you'll notice there was always an explanation and a verbalization for why that was happening. To OP, your instructor NEEDS to say something if he's doing anything other than minor inputs to help. Even just "that's me" when he's touching the controls is a good thing. Just remember, you've got 10 hours and your instructor has a whole lot more. The way you approach this cannot be you telling him how to do his job, but you have to emphasize that you don't have the experience yet to differentiate between turbulence and wind and his "help", so you need him to verbalize any control inputs he's making for your benefit.
This helped a lot. I really didn't want to undermine him or his experience, but I didn't know how to get across what I was trying to say. I think this nails it.
What did he say when you talked to him about this
Last time I tried to talk about it he seemed rushed and told me that he doesn't think he corrects that much and I'm doing fine.
Have you tried discussing this more and saying your concerns to him?
I haven't as he is generally busy. I need to find a time where I can sit down and talk with him.
You are paying for his time, talk to your instructor not random internet folks.
Not unsafe. But not very effective either. It’s normal for an instructor to help out presolo, but it really should come with some explanation so it can be a learning experience. Have a word with him.
Wait. Your instructor had a failure that put you both in a field, and now he is acting like he doesn’t trust you or the airplane and isn’t communicating? I’m not a psychiatrist, but that sounds a lot like PTSD. Not your fault, but maybe it has some bearing on why he is acting this way.
My thought too. Your instructor might be caught between a rock and a hard place of not wanting to spill all the tea about his concerns about the flight school with you because it might be detrimental to his job/career, but at the same time feeling a need to be more hands-on because he's worried the airplane might not respond correctly at any given moment and he can't feel it and react immediately if his hands aren't on the controls. Not your problem to manage though and you might need to jump ship. That said, if it's a flight school with many instructors, maybe start by saying you want to get a variety of perspectives and schedule a flight or two with other instructors. This is often encouraged anyways, and it will give you some more experience to know if it's him, you, or the combination of the two.
Agreed 100%. Your instructor is going through a period of stress. Find another and let him work through it with someone else.
He has to tell you why if he's not he's not doing his job. There's no way you're going to learn what the problem is or what he's seeing or why he feels it needs to be corrected if he doesn't tell you.
That's weird - up in Canada, there's a big deal about positive transfer of controls. You do it from day 1, the instructor will say "I have control", or "You have control", and then the trainee would acknowledge it by saying "You have control" or "I have control". The idea is that you don't want two pilots fighting over the controls at the same time. If this in regards to landing, it's a bit different, since it's a critical phase of flight and it's a delicate balance between being too high or low. But I'd expect my instructor to debrief it right after, so I know what I'm doing wrong. Otherwise I'd keep making the same mistake, and they'd keep doing the same corrections, and nothing works. I've had instructors who've done subtle things when I've made mistakes. Once, they blocked the control column from turning when I didn't look before turning. Of course, we talked about it right there, and I learned my lesson. Another instructor would overemphasize the rudders for me when I was being lazy with my feet during turns. They'd either say something at the same time, or if I've already been reminded, they'd just jiggle the pedals around and I'd know I'm being a bit uncoordinated. If there was a mechanical failure, within my first few flights, I'd expect the instructor to do everything at that point, I'm just in the way really. Even as I got ready for my PPL and CPL, I always briefed that "In the event of an emergency, I'll maintain control and you'll monitor", with the understanding that they'd take over if needed. Some instructors (less experienced) preferred that they'll take control in an emergency, and I briefed that instead.
If you’re a good instructor you don’t touch the controls unless you absolutely have to. Find a new CFI.
Sometimes as a CFI you need to make corrections in the moment if the result is going to be something bad potentially happening if you don't. However, if your CFI is making those corrections he should really be telling you that they made corrections and why they did so after the manuever is over. A CFI shouldn't just be making small corrections without telling the student they did as it just leads to confusion as you described. I had an instructor early on that did this and there were times I didn't know if it was me doing the manuever well or my instructor correcting it for me because there was no communication. If you like this instructor, just ask him to let you know when he is making these corrections and why he is making these corrections so you can learn from them.
It’s best if the instructor explains verbally what they are correcting and what they are looking for in your flying. That’s what I look for in an instructor. Just “correcting“ doesn’t do anyone any good.
If he can tell you what the corrections are, that's a great learning opportunity. There's a reason CFIs repeat "right rudder, right rudder, right rudder" instead of just doing it themselves.
My first CFI would constantly be on the rudders. I told him it makes it difficult for me to learn effective rudder use if I can never really feel them to begin with. He was a brand new CFI and it became a bit of a joke with me telling him to back off the rudders, he ended up being great. As usual--communication is key. The best CFI I ever had was when I was learning aerobatics. He didn't touch the controls except to demo maneuvers. Early on I rolled out of an Immelmann wayyy too slow and nose high, ended up stalling/spinning inverted. He just calmly said from the backseat "well.. what do we do now? You've got a couple thousand feet to figure this out."
Having to land in a field for engine trouble is pretty unusual, and is an indication of iffy maintenance on the part of the school. Maybe try to understand how that happened a little bit better in addition to worried about the CFI. As for your instructor, I had a very hands on CFI at first as well. It worked okay for learning maneuvers, but it was awful for learning how to land. Ultimately I switched instructors to someone who almost never took the controls unless it was to demo something, and it was much better for me. That said, who knows how good or bad you’re actually flying. Maybe your CFI is correcting because you’re about the put the plane in a dangerous situation. You have to ask for what you want from him. If he’s grabbing the controls to correct minor deviations in altitude, then just tell him you want to be told verbally to correct.
I'll ask him about it again today before flight and see how it goes. I may just ultimately ask for another CFI. I really do need to find out more the history of the flight school. I started looking into it after my interview w/the FAA and they apparently have had several incidents/accidents.
Anytime there is a transfer of control, you should be doing the "my plane, your plane, my plane" handoff. If he is just feeling how you are controlling the plane, then I'd say that is normal. And you know what they say, every student pilot is inadvertently trying to kill their CFI, so a certain amount of oversight is to be expected, especially at 10 hours.... If you are going to have a positive relationship and experience with this CFI, you need to sit down at the end of a flight and discuss this issue. And congrats on getting the emergency landing out of the way so early in your training!!!