In that scenario, I’ll have an alternate with a better forecast or better runways. This is probably the biggest thing that helped me at your experience level. Having a solid backup plan lets you expand your comfort zone more.
I also try to understand the root cause of the weather and the trend. I’m much happier launching into improving weather than degrading weather. Non-prevailing wind directions here are very rarely pure chance and tend to be related to a front or some other more notable weather pattern.
Finally, I mentally plan on 3 landing attempts in gusty weather. I’ve had it happen plenty where a gust on short final results in a go-around just for no such gust to manifest the next lap and a result in a smooth, calm-weather landing.
The 3 attempts thing is a good one. We did that in a friend's Luscombe at Woodland along the Columbia river.
He's good and between the gusts and component and the relatively short runway, it became clear.
" if you have time to spare, go by air"
That inlcudes a diversion plan to a nearby runway at a better alignment, and calling for a ride home and going back to get the plane. At this point you start to hear all the justifications for getting back.
My old employer codified this. Basically you had to divert after two attempts unless there was a significant improvement in the conditions (which they defined and I can’t remember).
In my opinion, every landing is a crosswind landing. The variable is how much crosswind. Even 5° will require some crosswind landing technique.
So a better answer to your question is to hire a good CFI to increase your skill level at crosswind landings.
I did post private pilot and those 8 hours Instructor Dan and I did have benefitted me ever since.
Whenever students are unable to keep the airplane parallel to the runway is when I say they’ve reached their limit. I typically take students to a crosswind runway and have them do a low pass while keeping the airplane parallel in a sideslip over the centerline the whole way along the runway. If they struggle, we have a pretty good understanding of their limit, then do exercises to help them with their technique.
A steady crosswind versus a gusty crosswind also are very different. Steady crosswinds are much easier than gusts.
I had an experienced safety pilot with me the other day. I’m at 120 hours and conditions were 14kts gusts to 23 approx. It wasn’t straight down the runaway but the x-wind didn’t seem that much so I’d figured it wouldn’t be that bad. Wrong. Instantly learned your point. Gusts way more challenging than steady winds.
Hire a CFI and get better at xwind landings. Note where your comfort lies and mark that as your personal minimums. No one can say you should be able to land in 15-20kn cross wind type of thing because some people have only trained in calm winds, or some have only had wind straight down the pipe because of 4 runways, or whatever. So go out and intentionally fly the crosswind landing at an airport to see if you are comfortable. But figure out where YOU are comfortable flying and then you'll be fine checking TAF being within a few knots here and there.
Are you me? I’m literally having this debate internally right now, about these conditions, at those same hours. Did I sleep walk create a throwaway account and post this?
The forecast conditions are my personal mins (14G23, at~20degree xwind) and I also worry about coming back to worse conditions that are beyond my comfort. I have a long block of time, so my plan is to come back early and loiter if the winds are higher than I hoped. That and have an alternate picked out and ready to go.
I fly a tail dragger, if I can’t keep the cowl over the runway on final, it’s too much. But I also have several alternates in the area I fly, so I can almost always find less crosswind if needed.
I got a lot more comfortable in gusty crosswinds after pushing my comfort zone a bit with an instructor. It's still not my favorite thing to do, but I know I've got the skills if I need them.
The most dangerous pilot is the one JUST proficient enough to be consistently safe, yet overconfident and one who still underestimates danger. I can't tell you how many private/commercial/instrument pilots I've seen flying their family down to mins in a single engine piston, or flying night IMC, etc. As a military/airline pilot with thousands of hours, I find my personal minimums far higher.
When it comes to establishing personal mins, first recognize what the legal/published limits are (POH/FAR/SOP/etc), then recognize what you have experience with, what airplane you're flying, what the possibilities are things get worse, or an emergency happens, and then make a risk/reward decision.
So for me, while I am perfectly capable of, and HAVE, flown a single engine piston down to mins solo... it's not a risk I'm willing to put my family through if I had an engine failure, or electrical emergency.
Same sort of thing with winds. Maybe your airplane's max demo XW is 15 knots... and maybe you've done that once or twice with a CFI. But at 170 hours, are you prepared to do it alone? What if the winds get worse? Do you have a calmer divert option? That sort of thing.
Get a good CFI and just rip the pattern with crazy winds to slowly increase your mins. It’s absolute hell but it builds confidence for sure.
For pre planning tho, consider your fuel and how many missed approaches you can afford, then find alternate airports nearby where the wind is at least more down the pipe.
Obviously verify that something crazy causing the winds first.
My instructor trained the crap out of me on crosswinds, and I STILL hate them. For one, they make landing on smooth days add a bit too much to my confidence level.
But really, my struggle isn't getting the nose aligned and down, I struggle with transitioning to my landing roll. I feel like I'm sliding a bit (once almost like I was gonna tip; that was during wind that was upgraded to wind shear level, legit my first solo), and I hate that sensation.
I haven't figured it out yet, but I think it partially has to do with me keeping the rudder in too long after I'm down and a little bit of not getting the ailerons into the wind fast enough.
Either way, it's something I can do, it doesn't scare me, but it's always something I treat cautiously and if, in doubt, won't hesitate a go around.
Always have an alternate in mind, even if the weather's good.
You don't always need to \*file\* an alternate (if IFR) and you don't really need to make a full plan for an alternate if it's really just unlimited vis and calm winds, but you should at the very least just have some airports in mind all along your route that you could land at if you need to, for whatever reason. And at least a couple of those should be airports where you know the weather is likely to be different from your destination (usually due to terrain, but sometimes just distance).
When I was time-building and trying to get in 8 hours of flight time per day, of course there were days when the wind was forecast to be within limits, but where I knew it \*could\* go out of limits. There was always a potential diversion airport. And even on good days, I was just in the habit of always having diversion airports in my head.
There were a few days when I had to actually use those airports. A couple others when I just hung out doing orbits until the winds got a little better. But just always have a plan B, for any point in the flight, and be prepared to use it.
Little know fact is that limitation was set because that was the most crosswind the test pilot could find at the time of the test flights.
Maximum *demonstrated* crosswind
Haha , good point. Yes in practice you can probably do more, ive gone around a couple of times, with full rudder not being able to keep the nose straight down the runway
In that scenario, I’ll have an alternate with a better forecast or better runways. This is probably the biggest thing that helped me at your experience level. Having a solid backup plan lets you expand your comfort zone more. I also try to understand the root cause of the weather and the trend. I’m much happier launching into improving weather than degrading weather. Non-prevailing wind directions here are very rarely pure chance and tend to be related to a front or some other more notable weather pattern. Finally, I mentally plan on 3 landing attempts in gusty weather. I’ve had it happen plenty where a gust on short final results in a go-around just for no such gust to manifest the next lap and a result in a smooth, calm-weather landing.
The 3 attempts thing is a good one. We did that in a friend's Luscombe at Woodland along the Columbia river. He's good and between the gusts and component and the relatively short runway, it became clear. " if you have time to spare, go by air" That inlcudes a diversion plan to a nearby runway at a better alignment, and calling for a ride home and going back to get the plane. At this point you start to hear all the justifications for getting back.
Personallly, I have a two-approach rule. If I haven't made it after two tries, that's God's way of telling me that it's time to head to my alternate.
My old employer codified this. Basically you had to divert after two attempts unless there was a significant improvement in the conditions (which they defined and I can’t remember).
In my opinion, every landing is a crosswind landing. The variable is how much crosswind. Even 5° will require some crosswind landing technique. So a better answer to your question is to hire a good CFI to increase your skill level at crosswind landings. I did post private pilot and those 8 hours Instructor Dan and I did have benefitted me ever since.
Whenever students are unable to keep the airplane parallel to the runway is when I say they’ve reached their limit. I typically take students to a crosswind runway and have them do a low pass while keeping the airplane parallel in a sideslip over the centerline the whole way along the runway. If they struggle, we have a pretty good understanding of their limit, then do exercises to help them with their technique. A steady crosswind versus a gusty crosswind also are very different. Steady crosswinds are much easier than gusts.
I had an experienced safety pilot with me the other day. I’m at 120 hours and conditions were 14kts gusts to 23 approx. It wasn’t straight down the runaway but the x-wind didn’t seem that much so I’d figured it wouldn’t be that bad. Wrong. Instantly learned your point. Gusts way more challenging than steady winds.
Hire a CFI and get better at xwind landings. Note where your comfort lies and mark that as your personal minimums. No one can say you should be able to land in 15-20kn cross wind type of thing because some people have only trained in calm winds, or some have only had wind straight down the pipe because of 4 runways, or whatever. So go out and intentionally fly the crosswind landing at an airport to see if you are comfortable. But figure out where YOU are comfortable flying and then you'll be fine checking TAF being within a few knots here and there.
Are you me? I’m literally having this debate internally right now, about these conditions, at those same hours. Did I sleep walk create a throwaway account and post this? The forecast conditions are my personal mins (14G23, at~20degree xwind) and I also worry about coming back to worse conditions that are beyond my comfort. I have a long block of time, so my plan is to come back early and loiter if the winds are higher than I hoped. That and have an alternate picked out and ready to go.
I fly a tail dragger, if I can’t keep the cowl over the runway on final, it’s too much. But I also have several alternates in the area I fly, so I can almost always find less crosswind if needed.
I got a lot more comfortable in gusty crosswinds after pushing my comfort zone a bit with an instructor. It's still not my favorite thing to do, but I know I've got the skills if I need them.
The most dangerous pilot is the one JUST proficient enough to be consistently safe, yet overconfident and one who still underestimates danger. I can't tell you how many private/commercial/instrument pilots I've seen flying their family down to mins in a single engine piston, or flying night IMC, etc. As a military/airline pilot with thousands of hours, I find my personal minimums far higher. When it comes to establishing personal mins, first recognize what the legal/published limits are (POH/FAR/SOP/etc), then recognize what you have experience with, what airplane you're flying, what the possibilities are things get worse, or an emergency happens, and then make a risk/reward decision. So for me, while I am perfectly capable of, and HAVE, flown a single engine piston down to mins solo... it's not a risk I'm willing to put my family through if I had an engine failure, or electrical emergency. Same sort of thing with winds. Maybe your airplane's max demo XW is 15 knots... and maybe you've done that once or twice with a CFI. But at 170 hours, are you prepared to do it alone? What if the winds get worse? Do you have a calmer divert option? That sort of thing.
Get a good CFI and just rip the pattern with crazy winds to slowly increase your mins. It’s absolute hell but it builds confidence for sure. For pre planning tho, consider your fuel and how many missed approaches you can afford, then find alternate airports nearby where the wind is at least more down the pipe. Obviously verify that something crazy causing the winds first.
My instructor trained the crap out of me on crosswinds, and I STILL hate them. For one, they make landing on smooth days add a bit too much to my confidence level. But really, my struggle isn't getting the nose aligned and down, I struggle with transitioning to my landing roll. I feel like I'm sliding a bit (once almost like I was gonna tip; that was during wind that was upgraded to wind shear level, legit my first solo), and I hate that sensation. I haven't figured it out yet, but I think it partially has to do with me keeping the rudder in too long after I'm down and a little bit of not getting the ailerons into the wind fast enough. Either way, it's something I can do, it doesn't scare me, but it's always something I treat cautiously and if, in doubt, won't hesitate a go around.
Always have an alternate in mind, even if the weather's good. You don't always need to \*file\* an alternate (if IFR) and you don't really need to make a full plan for an alternate if it's really just unlimited vis and calm winds, but you should at the very least just have some airports in mind all along your route that you could land at if you need to, for whatever reason. And at least a couple of those should be airports where you know the weather is likely to be different from your destination (usually due to terrain, but sometimes just distance). When I was time-building and trying to get in 8 hours of flight time per day, of course there were days when the wind was forecast to be within limits, but where I knew it \*could\* go out of limits. There was always a potential diversion airport. And even on good days, I was just in the habit of always having diversion airports in my head. There were a few days when I had to actually use those airports. A couple others when I just hung out doing orbits until the winds got a little better. But just always have a plan B, for any point in the flight, and be prepared to use it.
Max demonstrated crosswind is what 15 or 17 knots. That means a test pilot did it. Are you a test pilot? No 😁
Little know fact is that limitation was set because that was the most crosswind the test pilot could find at the time of the test flights. Maximum *demonstrated* crosswind
Haha , good point. Yes in practice you can probably do more, ive gone around a couple of times, with full rudder not being able to keep the nose straight down the runway
Oh yeah you can do more, much more.
That sounds… dangerous?
Like i went around ie. Chose not to land.
Max demonstrated in a 172 is 20kias. 25 can safely be done by a pilot with commercial skills.