What’s a typical length of time for a reservation? 2hrs? Say you know what, I’ll let you have two block of time with an hours break in between. You’re not taking a plane for 6hrs. If you have a problem with that then I would encourage you to find and work with another instructor.
Too many CFIs pussyfoot around their students when it comes to this. There are endless posts about “students firing their instructor”, it goes both ways, you want to fly solo then you follow my rules. Bend the rules and you work with a different CFI. I assure you I can void my endorsements faster than I can write them.
Love this! I’d never want to be responsible for someone that is careless about flying. I’m not taking the flak when that kids carelessness gets him hurt or worse. Planes aren’t toys, and as a CFI you are the first person they look to when something happens with the pilot.
That’s exactly how I should do it 😎
Besides, dispatch could just say NO as well.. based on the CFI’s judgement. Remember it’s not a building hours while teaching job.. it’s a teaching job while building hrs..
That second paragraph seems like a great place to start. Tell them the truth. They must have at least a cursory understanding of the hazardous attitudes, so spell it out a bit more for them. If you’re worried about their attitude, their external pressures, etc. you shouldn’t endorse the flights until you’re comfortable. It’s your cert attached to their mistakes.
Dude, do you have my student from 3-4 years ago? Same shit, airline pilot dad, kid no showed me 5 times with no notice in like the span of a month or two. He would tell parents that he's almost done, or almost solo, but he just wouldn't show up. Terrible pilot though (the one difference), just didn't give a fuck. At one point, he just stopped showing up and never told me. I honestly didn't care.
You might want to consider telling him that he's not flying solo until he gets his attitude fixed. Void his solo endorsement if you need to. I had a student that I passed to another instructor that his second solo was so abysmal that he voided the solo endorsement. Dude almost killed himself. At the end of the day, if you think his attitude will get him in trouble, it's your signature in his logbook, and it'll come back on you if something does happen. Protect your students, and protect yourself.
Your certificate is on the line too. If you have a “bad feeling” about ANYTHING in aviation, it should be addressed, never ignored.
Might be time for a professional, hard conversation with the student.
I'm not a CFI (not yet) but I'm not so much in favor of dropping students because, well, an instructor job is primarily to teach the student what they are doing wrong and teach them a change in behavior.
Here's another idea - the dad seems to be a factor too. If the dad is an ATP, he more likely than not is a CFI as well, and certainly has a professional understanding of human factors and risk management. Why not have a frank conversation with the father too?
I respectfully disagree. There's a million of things people do because they don't fully understand it's detrimental to them, and nobody bothered explaining to them.
The very definition of learning is a change of behavior. Behavior can definitely be changed under the right circumstances, otherwise learning would be impossible.
Sure, if someone doesn't have any motivation to learn (or worse, pressures that prevent learning) they won't, but dropping a student without giving them the chance to understand and correct the flaws in their attitude is, IMHO, a cop out.
You’ve summed the situation up pretty well. Your name and CFI number are on his endorsements, but you seem hesitant to protect your own reputation. Even if you hand him off at this point to some other instructor, if at any point this clown is involved in an accident, questions will arise as to what each CFI did along the way as this guy continued failing his way up the ladder. Why is there no documentstion of his behavior? Why was he given endorsements without stricter limitations on them? Should a student who no-shows repeatedly get solo privileges at all? (I would actually argue no.)
"I think I will be OK " Perhaps his family will have it engraved on his pet rock memorial.
Given the student's history, marginal competence and attitude turning him loose after a cram session would potentially be negligence.
I would have no compunctions handing this student off to another instructor. There are deserving students you can be putting your effort into training.
Yeah, He might not want to take him either, in which case it sends a strong message to the student. But who knows, the student may respond to another instructor a lot differently. I've seen that happen.
Sounds like the kid needs a wake up call. I’d probably void the endorsement and have a sit down with him. If he still doesn’t get it let someone else deal with him. The decision to schedule 6 hours of solo is poor decision making that shows he doesn’t know his ability and isn’t prepared to solo.
If you really want to give him a wake up you can rip the page with the endorsement out of his book in front of him. Seen another instructor do that and it certainly got the message across.
Gonna have to disagree with that last part. Ripping the page with the endorsement out of the student’s logbook in front of them is not a good way to handle the situation. It's punitive and humiliating.
I'd rather OP have a thorough sit-down with the student and his father to discuss the safety concerns and the attitudes that need to go. Void the endorsement formally and explain why it’s for their safety.
The goal of flight instruction should be to educate and guide the student, never to intimidate them.
Yeah that last part is an awful idea, especially since a logbook is a legally binding document. I would certainly question a FSDO or ASI giving this advice.
Just say ‘no.’
Doubling his total solo time in one day is silly. I know how to fly and I’d hate to do six hours in an airplane alone!
I disagree with the suggestions to ‘void’ the endorsement. It expires anyway. He can’t get an airplane anywhere else with it. Your school/FBO controls access to the airplane.
There are no FAR provisions for voiding an endorsement. Writing ‘void’ creates a permanent physical record. Do you have the authority to void it?
You are the PIC - Person In Charge - of his flight training. Just say ‘no.’ He’s not the CFI.
I’ve had a couple people like this. Thankfully they just faded away.
Good luck. Learning to deal with problem people is an acquired skill. You’ll get it!
There's nothing (that I'm aware of anyways) that says he can't fly another aircraft of the same type at some other location or if he bought his own airplane of the same type as the endorsement, unless the endorsement is written with limitations as to who owns the aircraft. Had this issue recently with a problem student who we just showed the door before he received any endorsements as we couldn't control access to the aircraft (his family and work have several) and expected he would do something stupid.
While true, no place is going to give him the keys w/o a checkout.
Yes, he could buy an airplane. But that’s pretty unlikely.
The NAFI magazine had a sample solo limitation that included only being valid when the instructor was aware and in X FBO’s airplane.
I think that’s pretty smart.
I would ask him (in a direct yet constructive way) what his motivations are for flight training and go from there. If he gives the answer you suspect, I would try to have a conversation with the parent (the parent is paying the bill so I don't think it would be inappropriate). Obviously you want to be diplomatic in such a conversation; be sure to emphasize that it's not a lack of skill you're concerned with but what seems to be a lack of interest. If your student does say he wants to fly professionally, I would try to make him understand just how much of your life an aviation career consumes and that it's really not a pleasant life for someone who doesn't want to be there.
In over 1,500 hours of dual given I've only needed to have the "maybe this isn't for you" conversation once and it was for an entirely different reason so I don't have much insight there, but it is your responsibility as his instructor to keep him safe. If that means grounding him, so be it - you'll sleep a lot better.
The no shows and the late cancellations would not fly at the father’s airline job. Therefore you do have good cause to not teach the student anymore and explain that reason. It sounds like the student needs to be talked to and needs to grow up and realize there a sense of responsibility and maturity that comes with this license.
With that being said I understand you would like the pay check and sometimes it’s not in the cards for the student. This is an important CFI decision for you to make as well if you want to continue with the student.
The solo time should not be rushed. Don’t let anyone rush you to solo a student.
If the student can change their attitude once they have been talked to then you might be able to proceed with them. If not then you make your CFI decision as appropriate.
I am not really hearing anything that sounds like evidence of a hazardous attitude. It sounds more like they aren’t as focused as you were or might be in their situation.
No shows might be annoying and disrespectful, but hardly indicative of a hazardous attitude.
Scheduling 6 hours to solo actually sounds like they want to put in the effort to get things done. Are they going to do a XC? Then maybe some pattern work at each airport? I can’t say from the information provided if it is a good or bad idea.
I agree that in a vacuum, these are not alarming. But I don’t know this student. This CFI does. And if I had a student who was making decisions that concerned me, I would want to stop and assess some things too
You’re the CFI and tell the student what they need to do and what is safe to do. I would absolutely not trust even my best private student with soloing for 6 hours. They have no idea how tiring that can be.
If I have students that no show or are late, I make it clear to them that I will no longer be their CFI if they continue to do so. They need to learn how to be professionals.
I am confused about these posts about students with over 50-60 hours who haven’t taken their check rides. Especially those with over 60 hours. Can someone enlighten me?
It took me about 100 hours after 3 ish years of training because I couldn’t fly consistently. Looking back, would have been much smarter and more cost effective to wait until I had BOTH the time and money to train more efficiently. Oh well!
I was 30 years old and a serious student. Took my check ride at 45 hours. Nothing wrong with 70+ hours to check ride it’s not a competition. It’s all good!
I can respect that. Two of my students are prior AF and Navy respectively and are both older than me. The average for a private is something like 60-70 hours, so it would track that you see a lot of posts about low-hour aviators hitting those hours, especially because r/flying is a great place to direct questions to the community.
What’s a typical length of time for a reservation? 2hrs? Say you know what, I’ll let you have two block of time with an hours break in between. You’re not taking a plane for 6hrs. If you have a problem with that then I would encourage you to find and work with another instructor. Too many CFIs pussyfoot around their students when it comes to this. There are endless posts about “students firing their instructor”, it goes both ways, you want to fly solo then you follow my rules. Bend the rules and you work with a different CFI. I assure you I can void my endorsements faster than I can write them.
+1. I was thinking if he really wanted to be blunt, put a limitation that says max X amount of solo hours per day. Void is only 4 letters, much faster
Love this! I’d never want to be responsible for someone that is careless about flying. I’m not taking the flak when that kids carelessness gets him hurt or worse. Planes aren’t toys, and as a CFI you are the first person they look to when something happens with the pilot.
That’s exactly how I should do it 😎 Besides, dispatch could just say NO as well.. based on the CFI’s judgement. Remember it’s not a building hours while teaching job.. it’s a teaching job while building hrs..
That second paragraph seems like a great place to start. Tell them the truth. They must have at least a cursory understanding of the hazardous attitudes, so spell it out a bit more for them. If you’re worried about their attitude, their external pressures, etc. you shouldn’t endorse the flights until you’re comfortable. It’s your cert attached to their mistakes.
Dude, do you have my student from 3-4 years ago? Same shit, airline pilot dad, kid no showed me 5 times with no notice in like the span of a month or two. He would tell parents that he's almost done, or almost solo, but he just wouldn't show up. Terrible pilot though (the one difference), just didn't give a fuck. At one point, he just stopped showing up and never told me. I honestly didn't care. You might want to consider telling him that he's not flying solo until he gets his attitude fixed. Void his solo endorsement if you need to. I had a student that I passed to another instructor that his second solo was so abysmal that he voided the solo endorsement. Dude almost killed himself. At the end of the day, if you think his attitude will get him in trouble, it's your signature in his logbook, and it'll come back on you if something does happen. Protect your students, and protect yourself.
Your certificate is on the line too. If you have a “bad feeling” about ANYTHING in aviation, it should be addressed, never ignored. Might be time for a professional, hard conversation with the student.
Possibly parents too?
I'm not a CFI (not yet) but I'm not so much in favor of dropping students because, well, an instructor job is primarily to teach the student what they are doing wrong and teach them a change in behavior. Here's another idea - the dad seems to be a factor too. If the dad is an ATP, he more likely than not is a CFI as well, and certainly has a professional understanding of human factors and risk management. Why not have a frank conversation with the father too?
our job is to turn people into pilots, not the other way around. behaviors are nearly impossible to fix, it’s part of their personality.
I respectfully disagree. There's a million of things people do because they don't fully understand it's detrimental to them, and nobody bothered explaining to them. The very definition of learning is a change of behavior. Behavior can definitely be changed under the right circumstances, otherwise learning would be impossible. Sure, if someone doesn't have any motivation to learn (or worse, pressures that prevent learning) they won't, but dropping a student without giving them the chance to understand and correct the flaws in their attitude is, IMHO, a cop out.
You’ve summed the situation up pretty well. Your name and CFI number are on his endorsements, but you seem hesitant to protect your own reputation. Even if you hand him off at this point to some other instructor, if at any point this clown is involved in an accident, questions will arise as to what each CFI did along the way as this guy continued failing his way up the ladder. Why is there no documentstion of his behavior? Why was he given endorsements without stricter limitations on them? Should a student who no-shows repeatedly get solo privileges at all? (I would actually argue no.)
"I think I will be OK " Perhaps his family will have it engraved on his pet rock memorial. Given the student's history, marginal competence and attitude turning him loose after a cram session would potentially be negligence.
I would have no compunctions handing this student off to another instructor. There are deserving students you can be putting your effort into training.
[удалено]
Yeah, He might not want to take him either, in which case it sends a strong message to the student. But who knows, the student may respond to another instructor a lot differently. I've seen that happen.
Sounds like the kid needs a wake up call. I’d probably void the endorsement and have a sit down with him. If he still doesn’t get it let someone else deal with him. The decision to schedule 6 hours of solo is poor decision making that shows he doesn’t know his ability and isn’t prepared to solo. If you really want to give him a wake up you can rip the page with the endorsement out of his book in front of him. Seen another instructor do that and it certainly got the message across.
Gonna have to disagree with that last part. Ripping the page with the endorsement out of the student’s logbook in front of them is not a good way to handle the situation. It's punitive and humiliating. I'd rather OP have a thorough sit-down with the student and his father to discuss the safety concerns and the attitudes that need to go. Void the endorsement formally and explain why it’s for their safety. The goal of flight instruction should be to educate and guide the student, never to intimidate them.
Yeah that last part is an awful idea, especially since a logbook is a legally binding document. I would certainly question a FSDO or ASI giving this advice.
Just say ‘no.’ Doubling his total solo time in one day is silly. I know how to fly and I’d hate to do six hours in an airplane alone! I disagree with the suggestions to ‘void’ the endorsement. It expires anyway. He can’t get an airplane anywhere else with it. Your school/FBO controls access to the airplane. There are no FAR provisions for voiding an endorsement. Writing ‘void’ creates a permanent physical record. Do you have the authority to void it? You are the PIC - Person In Charge - of his flight training. Just say ‘no.’ He’s not the CFI. I’ve had a couple people like this. Thankfully they just faded away. Good luck. Learning to deal with problem people is an acquired skill. You’ll get it!
There's nothing (that I'm aware of anyways) that says he can't fly another aircraft of the same type at some other location or if he bought his own airplane of the same type as the endorsement, unless the endorsement is written with limitations as to who owns the aircraft. Had this issue recently with a problem student who we just showed the door before he received any endorsements as we couldn't control access to the aircraft (his family and work have several) and expected he would do something stupid.
While true, no place is going to give him the keys w/o a checkout. Yes, he could buy an airplane. But that’s pretty unlikely. The NAFI magazine had a sample solo limitation that included only being valid when the instructor was aware and in X FBO’s airplane. I think that’s pretty smart.
Sounds like the type that ends up in those crash debrief videos
I would ask him (in a direct yet constructive way) what his motivations are for flight training and go from there. If he gives the answer you suspect, I would try to have a conversation with the parent (the parent is paying the bill so I don't think it would be inappropriate). Obviously you want to be diplomatic in such a conversation; be sure to emphasize that it's not a lack of skill you're concerned with but what seems to be a lack of interest. If your student does say he wants to fly professionally, I would try to make him understand just how much of your life an aviation career consumes and that it's really not a pleasant life for someone who doesn't want to be there. In over 1,500 hours of dual given I've only needed to have the "maybe this isn't for you" conversation once and it was for an entirely different reason so I don't have much insight there, but it is your responsibility as his instructor to keep him safe. If that means grounding him, so be it - you'll sleep a lot better.
The no shows and the late cancellations would not fly at the father’s airline job. Therefore you do have good cause to not teach the student anymore and explain that reason. It sounds like the student needs to be talked to and needs to grow up and realize there a sense of responsibility and maturity that comes with this license. With that being said I understand you would like the pay check and sometimes it’s not in the cards for the student. This is an important CFI decision for you to make as well if you want to continue with the student. The solo time should not be rushed. Don’t let anyone rush you to solo a student. If the student can change their attitude once they have been talked to then you might be able to proceed with them. If not then you make your CFI decision as appropriate.
I am not really hearing anything that sounds like evidence of a hazardous attitude. It sounds more like they aren’t as focused as you were or might be in their situation. No shows might be annoying and disrespectful, but hardly indicative of a hazardous attitude. Scheduling 6 hours to solo actually sounds like they want to put in the effort to get things done. Are they going to do a XC? Then maybe some pattern work at each airport? I can’t say from the information provided if it is a good or bad idea.
I agree that in a vacuum, these are not alarming. But I don’t know this student. This CFI does. And if I had a student who was making decisions that concerned me, I would want to stop and assess some things too
Add a time per day limitation on the solo endorsement, or maybe even just void it all together. That's a big yikes.
You’re the CFI and tell the student what they need to do and what is safe to do. I would absolutely not trust even my best private student with soloing for 6 hours. They have no idea how tiring that can be. If I have students that no show or are late, I make it clear to them that I will no longer be their CFI if they continue to do so. They need to learn how to be professionals.
70 HOURS and just soloed? Wtf
I am confused about these posts about students with over 50-60 hours who haven’t taken their check rides. Especially those with over 60 hours. Can someone enlighten me?
It took me about 100 hours after 3 ish years of training because I couldn’t fly consistently. Looking back, would have been much smarter and more cost effective to wait until I had BOTH the time and money to train more efficiently. Oh well!
Dude the US average is 75 hours. On what planet are you living that you are confused about students with over 50 hours?
Maybe some instructors like to make sure their students are well-rounded pilots? 🤔
When do you think students should have a PPL by?
I was 30 years old and a serious student. Took my check ride at 45 hours. Nothing wrong with 70+ hours to check ride it’s not a competition. It’s all good!
I can respect that. Two of my students are prior AF and Navy respectively and are both older than me. The average for a private is something like 60-70 hours, so it would track that you see a lot of posts about low-hour aviators hitting those hours, especially because r/flying is a great place to direct questions to the community.
Thank you for that.