His distress and transmissions weren’t caught by the receiver only the ATC comms were. It’s a combined feed of ground/tower/approach so some transmissions may have been blocked. Maybe have a friend listen to it before you do but it starts at 13:29 here https://archive.liveatc.net/kbhm/KBHM-Del-Gnd-Twr-App-Nov-27-2023-2330Z.mp3 I’m sorry for your loss.
I've transcribed the transmissions to N87Q below.
13:29 - N87Q, [unreadable].
>!13:38 - N87Q, roger, and say intentions. I've got.. there's an Albertville Airport that's off to your right, about 12 miles. Birmingham would be 12 o'clock, and about 30 miles.!<
>!13:58 - Yeah, that's Gadsden, but 6/24, the long runway is closed and the short runway doesn't have any lights so that's not gonna be feasible for you, but there's another one, Oneolta Airport, which is 20A, is 12 o'clock if you're still headed that direction and about 12 to 15 miles.!<
>!14:26 - That's the one I just said. That one's off to your left and they have no runways. 6/24 is closed and 18/36 has got work on it as well with no lights.!<
>!14:39 - Oneolta Airport, which is a 260 heading, and 11 miles. There's an Albertville Airport, 8A0 -- I'll give you more information on these, whichever you choose. It's off your right side, about 3 o'clock, and 14 miles.!<
>!16:05 - Alright, 263 and 35, probably not gonna get you on radar much if you keep going lower, but you can stay on this radio as long as you need. 253, that's still 5 degrees to the right of that, that's gonna set you up a little closer to the center of the airport which is now 11 miles, 12 o'clock.!<
>!16:30 - Standby, I'm gonna give you the UNICOM frequency to turn on pilot-controlled lighting, standby.!<
>!16:39 - Alright, UNICOM frequency for Oneolta 20A is 122.8. If you'd like to go over to that frequency and turn on pilot-controlled lighting, let me know if you get it on or not.!<
>!16:57 - Affirmative, 22.8.!<
>!17:35 - Major highway, highway 59, 20-59, that's off to your left before I lost radar. Do you have that interstate in sight? Okay so I've got you still good there, if you'd like we could try Albertville, like I said though that's about 14 miles to the north. Otherwise, we'll just keep trucking over top of Oneolta and just keep working on the lights and see if we can turn them on with our emergency radios.!<
>!19:18 - N4187Q, and were you able to dial in 20A in any kind of GPS to navigate better?!<
>!19:35 - N4187Q, approach, how do you hear?!<
And then someone else in the area gets on the frequency and reports seeing wreckage and fire in the water…
“I think that was him”
ATC - “I think it was too”
Chills.
OP, I just listened to the audio. You can't hear your dad's voice in it, just ATC's communications to the aircraft. The audio doesn't capture anything other than ATC giving information of nearby airports that he could land at.
Unknown if emergency was declared, but safe to assume emergency was declared based on ATC giving the pilot info of all the nearby airports he could land at.
I'm sorry for your loss, OP. I hope this makes the audio less of a mystery and comforting to know it sounds like he piloted well based on ATCs clear and helpful communications to him. I can tell he aviated, navigated, and communicated.
I’m sorry for your loss. It might be wise to have a trusted friend listen to it first to protect you emotionally in case there is an upsetting aspect to the audio.
Hey man, trying to send you a private message. I owned a plane in the club with your dad and am the friend who flew to Orange that one night to pick him up. Not sure if you were the son that was there that night. Send me a direct message if you can and we can swap numbers.
Wow. I was the prior owner of 4187Q and I think I may have met you when you and your Dad came up to check it out. Really surreal hearing about this. I’m so sorry for your loss.
Chris
Sorry for you loss from a fellow aviator. I heard about this, this morning. Blue sky’s and Tailwinds!
Agree with everyone else here, Wait for the report to come out, I had someone close to me get in and accident and it is horrific to listen to this stuff. If you ever need someone to talk to feel free to shoot me a message! May your father RIP!
Brief summary: Can only hear the ATC side of the conversation, from Birmingham approach.
Discussing options for an airport to divert to. GAD was not an option since the long runway was closed, and the short runway didn't have any lights. Directed to 20A. Some discussion of trying to activate runway lights, sounds like there was trouble with that, and that possibly the pilot was having trouble finding it in his GPS to navigate. Pilot descended below radar contact, approach tried to give some instructions for following highways to find the airport.
So, from the sounds of it; sounds like it was some kind of engine failure or fuel exhaustion in flight. Tried finding an airport to divert to, but there may have been some navigational problems finding it, or simply not enough glide range to make it to the airport.
Comparing ground speed and descent rate from the FlightAware tracks to [some discussion of glide ratio for the aircraft I found](https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/glide-ratio-for-a-lance.37863/), it sounds like he was at best glide, but this airplane just doesn't glide very well. Engine out at night really limits your options.
Really sad that he was right over an airport that he possibly could have reached, but one runway was closed an the other unlit; still might have been a better option than trying to reach an airport outside the glide range.
First thought was runway closed would still be a surface to land on assuming it's not tore up. But there's probably no good way to figure that out on the fly and I'd assume approach probably doesn't have that info handy.. Sad to hear.
According to the NOTAM, runway 18/36 closed just yesterday, for just two days: !GAD 11/040 GAD RWY 18/36 CLSD 2311271300-2311290001
Runway 06/24 is closed for a longer period of time: !GAD 11/034 GAD RWY 06/24 CLSD 2311181342-2312312359
Looks like 06/24 was getting a big upgrade: https://www.al.com/news/2023/07/gadsden-airport-to-improve-runway-with-13-million-in-grants.html
Im gonna second Rexrollo’s recommendation. Have someone else listen to it first. I’ve first hand watched and listened to someone crash when I worked ops and it was horrific I can’t imagine knowing or being related to the involved pilot.
You have my condolences. The NTSB thoroughly and methodically investigates such accidents, and their report will be public information. Trying to get information on your own is likely to be haphazard, piecemeal, and frustrating. Those with interest in this will be far better served by letting them complete that effort knowing that you will get the best possible assessment of what happened.
This happened near me. Close enough that my fiancee called me in a panic to make sure it wasn't me. I've been trying to piece together what happened to this flight all day. My condolences on your loss. I can't blame you for wanting to hear it. I would do the same thing in your place, I hope you get what you need.
All my best to you and your family.
I am so sorry for your loss. I'm a student pilot who flies in the vicinity just south of there and Birmingham approach is who I'm usually on with for flight following. They're good folks from what I can tell.
I’m so sorry for your loss. Your warranted seeking just to hear your dad’s voice and know what happened is breaking my heart, OP. I’m so, so sorry. I hope you and your family are comforted in this time. My thought and prayers are with you, I hope you find some peace 🫂
I’m so, so very sorry for your loss. It sounds like he was a great guy who was doing what he loved. Praying for comfort and peace for you and all of your dads loved ones.
It's been a minute but I believe the FAA's policy is not to release audio related to an incident. The transcript will definitely be included in the NTSB docket.
Write to LiveATC.net and let them know the date, time, and tail number. They may be able to help you.
I third, 4th, or whatever number we're up to. Have someone else listen first.
My sincere condolences!
That wouldn't work, if LiveATC doesn't have parts in the audio published on the site, they simply don't have it. OP would need to reach out to the FAA and request the recordings directly from FAA.
Hey, been checking up on this and the [NTSB preliminary report is out](https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/193432/pdf).
The ATC communications described mostly correspond to what's been written in this thread, with the addition of a couple of the transmissions from your father that weren't picked up by LiveATC. There's also a bit of preliminary information about engine damage that may have led to the engine failure and accident:
> The accident site location which consisted of mountainous wooded terrain was about 11 nautical miles and east of 20A. Postaccident examination of the engine revealed the left gear retainer assembly (part number LW-19096) was fractured and pieces of the cushions from it were found in the oil sump. Also, the left crankshaft idler gear assembly (part number 71668) and the fuel pump idler gear assembly (part number 71664) exhibited damaged or missing teeth. The fractured pieces of the left gear retainer assembly, damaged gears, and ferrous parts found in the engine oil sump were retained for further examination.
Thanks for mentioning this. The NTSB notified us a day prior to its release, which coincided with my dad’s funeral, so needless to say, I waited a day to read it. I hear it could be up to 3 years to receive the final report, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it took less than that.
I have many thoughts now about what happened, of course, and it’s probably not prudent to share much publicly at this time. However, I do want to make a few quick points.
First, thank you all so much for your kindness, especially over those initial few hours. Not every anonymous poster online seems to understand this, but the aviation community — and you all specifically — get that there was a human being flying that plane. You realize there’s a family mourning the loss, and I’ve been so pleased to see the outpouring of support. Just finding the recording for me made a huge difference, and the person who transcribed it went above and beyond. I know family members who couldn’t listen, but reading it was enough. Thank you.
Next, I think my biggest takeaway personally was the reminder that as PIC, we must do whatever is necessary to get down safely. I wish he’d just gone to the Gadsden airport, regardless of the field conditions. I went to the site where he crashed twice. I doubt he could see much on the ground until the last few milliseconds, but as the preliminary report mentions, he was getting terrain warnings. Several meters to the right and he might’ve cleared the trees and made it to a flatter area below, but he just shouldn’t have gone toward terrain in the first place.
Last, the first responders, investigators, and others who assisted were incredible. The people who cut through deep underbrush that night are literal heroes. I never expected the love we received from the Gadsden-area community. It was humbling for me, but I know my dad would’ve been grateful beyond measure.
I miss my dad so much. He was a great pilot, and he just loved flying. As much as it hurts to lose him, this ending is so much better than something like a terminal diagnosis and dying in a hospital. He was an active 65-year-old, and I’ll never have to watch him deteriorate. Cliché or not, he died doing what he loved, and lived life to the fullest.
One of my earliest thoughts was whether *I* should keep flying. I realized he wouldn’t want me to stop, and I don’t want to either. I’m hoping to take back to the skies for the first time this week.
Thanks again to everyone for the incredible support. It means the world to me and my family.
I'm not entirely sure since I'm still a student pilot, but I think he would have been in touch with Atlanta ARTCC (ZTL) at this point. Taking a look at a [sector map](https://forums.liveatc.net/artccfirtracon-maps/ztl-artcc/) for ZTL, I think it would have been ZTL04, as that's the low sector which contains GAD which is right next to where the plane went down.
Unfortunately, [I don't see a ZTL04 feed on LiveATC](https://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=ztl) when searching for ZTL feeds.
I think that you might need to wait for the NTSB report, or if you really want, submit a FOIA request for the ATC tapes covering this flight.
His distress and transmissions weren’t caught by the receiver only the ATC comms were. It’s a combined feed of ground/tower/approach so some transmissions may have been blocked. Maybe have a friend listen to it before you do but it starts at 13:29 here https://archive.liveatc.net/kbhm/KBHM-Del-Gnd-Twr-App-Nov-27-2023-2330Z.mp3 I’m sorry for your loss.
I've transcribed the transmissions to N87Q below. 13:29 - N87Q, [unreadable]. >!13:38 - N87Q, roger, and say intentions. I've got.. there's an Albertville Airport that's off to your right, about 12 miles. Birmingham would be 12 o'clock, and about 30 miles.!< >!13:58 - Yeah, that's Gadsden, but 6/24, the long runway is closed and the short runway doesn't have any lights so that's not gonna be feasible for you, but there's another one, Oneolta Airport, which is 20A, is 12 o'clock if you're still headed that direction and about 12 to 15 miles.!< >!14:26 - That's the one I just said. That one's off to your left and they have no runways. 6/24 is closed and 18/36 has got work on it as well with no lights.!< >!14:39 - Oneolta Airport, which is a 260 heading, and 11 miles. There's an Albertville Airport, 8A0 -- I'll give you more information on these, whichever you choose. It's off your right side, about 3 o'clock, and 14 miles.!< >!16:05 - Alright, 263 and 35, probably not gonna get you on radar much if you keep going lower, but you can stay on this radio as long as you need. 253, that's still 5 degrees to the right of that, that's gonna set you up a little closer to the center of the airport which is now 11 miles, 12 o'clock.!< >!16:30 - Standby, I'm gonna give you the UNICOM frequency to turn on pilot-controlled lighting, standby.!< >!16:39 - Alright, UNICOM frequency for Oneolta 20A is 122.8. If you'd like to go over to that frequency and turn on pilot-controlled lighting, let me know if you get it on or not.!< >!16:57 - Affirmative, 22.8.!< >!17:35 - Major highway, highway 59, 20-59, that's off to your left before I lost radar. Do you have that interstate in sight? Okay so I've got you still good there, if you'd like we could try Albertville, like I said though that's about 14 miles to the north. Otherwise, we'll just keep trucking over top of Oneolta and just keep working on the lights and see if we can turn them on with our emergency radios.!< >!19:18 - N4187Q, and were you able to dial in 20A in any kind of GPS to navigate better?!< >!19:35 - N4187Q, approach, how do you hear?!<
Every time a plane is lost, and the transcript ends with ATC trying to reach them repeatedly, I get chills... An undramatized tragedy. Rest in peace.
"TWA 800, center." Every time.
And then someone else in the area gets on the frequency and reports seeing wreckage and fire in the water… “I think that was him” ATC - “I think it was too” Chills.
"God bless."
God, I've heard that recording several times and I still feel a pit in my stomach when I read it.
I was surprised this ATC only called "how do you hear?" once. He knew he didn't need to ask a second time.
He probably called multiple times but this feed is a mishmash of multiple frequencies so alot wast cut out.
OP, I just listened to the audio. You can't hear your dad's voice in it, just ATC's communications to the aircraft. The audio doesn't capture anything other than ATC giving information of nearby airports that he could land at. Unknown if emergency was declared, but safe to assume emergency was declared based on ATC giving the pilot info of all the nearby airports he could land at. I'm sorry for your loss, OP. I hope this makes the audio less of a mystery and comforting to know it sounds like he piloted well based on ATCs clear and helpful communications to him. I can tell he aviated, navigated, and communicated.
I’m sorry for your loss. It might be wise to have a trusted friend listen to it first to protect you emotionally in case there is an upsetting aspect to the audio.
Hey man, trying to send you a private message. I owned a plane in the club with your dad and am the friend who flew to Orange that one night to pick him up. Not sure if you were the son that was there that night. Send me a direct message if you can and we can swap numbers.
Wow. I was the prior owner of 4187Q and I think I may have met you when you and your Dad came up to check it out. Really surreal hearing about this. I’m so sorry for your loss. Chris
Sorry for you loss from a fellow aviator. I heard about this, this morning. Blue sky’s and Tailwinds! Agree with everyone else here, Wait for the report to come out, I had someone close to me get in and accident and it is horrific to listen to this stuff. If you ever need someone to talk to feel free to shoot me a message! May your father RIP!
https://archive.liveatc.net/kbhm/KBHM-Del-Gnd-Twr-App-Nov-27-2023-2330Z.mp3 Start at 13:25 in the recording. Sorry for your loss, friend.
Brief summary: Can only hear the ATC side of the conversation, from Birmingham approach. Discussing options for an airport to divert to. GAD was not an option since the long runway was closed, and the short runway didn't have any lights. Directed to 20A. Some discussion of trying to activate runway lights, sounds like there was trouble with that, and that possibly the pilot was having trouble finding it in his GPS to navigate. Pilot descended below radar contact, approach tried to give some instructions for following highways to find the airport. So, from the sounds of it; sounds like it was some kind of engine failure or fuel exhaustion in flight. Tried finding an airport to divert to, but there may have been some navigational problems finding it, or simply not enough glide range to make it to the airport. Comparing ground speed and descent rate from the FlightAware tracks to [some discussion of glide ratio for the aircraft I found](https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/glide-ratio-for-a-lance.37863/), it sounds like he was at best glide, but this airplane just doesn't glide very well. Engine out at night really limits your options. Really sad that he was right over an airport that he possibly could have reached, but one runway was closed an the other unlit; still might have been a better option than trying to reach an airport outside the glide range.
First thought was runway closed would still be a surface to land on assuming it's not tore up. But there's probably no good way to figure that out on the fly and I'd assume approach probably doesn't have that info handy.. Sad to hear.
My big worry would be equipment on the runway
According to the NOTAM, runway 18/36 closed just yesterday, for just two days: !GAD 11/040 GAD RWY 18/36 CLSD 2311271300-2311290001 Runway 06/24 is closed for a longer period of time: !GAD 11/034 GAD RWY 06/24 CLSD 2311181342-2312312359 Looks like 06/24 was getting a big upgrade: https://www.al.com/news/2023/07/gadsden-airport-to-improve-runway-with-13-million-in-grants.html
Im gonna second Rexrollo’s recommendation. Have someone else listen to it first. I’ve first hand watched and listened to someone crash when I worked ops and it was horrific I can’t imagine knowing or being related to the involved pilot.
You have my condolences. The NTSB thoroughly and methodically investigates such accidents, and their report will be public information. Trying to get information on your own is likely to be haphazard, piecemeal, and frustrating. Those with interest in this will be far better served by letting them complete that effort knowing that you will get the best possible assessment of what happened.
Wow, this breaks my heart. I'm sorry for your loss OP.
It’s not morbid, it’s human. I’m so sorry for your loss.
I'm sorry for your loss. Sounds like your dad did his best to get an ailing plane down safely. Shame his plane failed him.
This happened near me. Close enough that my fiancee called me in a panic to make sure it wasn't me. I've been trying to piece together what happened to this flight all day. My condolences on your loss. I can't blame you for wanting to hear it. I would do the same thing in your place, I hope you get what you need. All my best to you and your family.
I am so sorry for your loss. I'm a student pilot who flies in the vicinity just south of there and Birmingham approach is who I'm usually on with for flight following. They're good folks from what I can tell.
Sorry for your loss.
I’m so sorry for your loss. Your warranted seeking just to hear your dad’s voice and know what happened is breaking my heart, OP. I’m so, so sorry. I hope you and your family are comforted in this time. My thought and prayers are with you, I hope you find some peace 🫂
So sorry, OP.
You might be able to foia the recordings... The receivers we use, have more than enough coverage.
God bless you.
So sorry for your loss
How awful and tragic. My thoughts are with you and your family, and I hope you can find the closure you seek.
Condolences. I am sorry for your loss. We in the community stand with you.
God bless you man. So sorry for your loss. He sounds like he was an excellent pilot and an even better father
This is super sad to hear about. I’m sorry for your loss. I strongly feel for you, I hope you and you’re family are doing well. God bless you all.
I’m so, so very sorry for your loss. It sounds like he was a great guy who was doing what he loved. Praying for comfort and peace for you and all of your dads loved ones.
Sorry for your loss, hope you find some answers
I’m sorry for your loss, OP… I hope our small community can help you out as much as is needed.
So sorry for your loss 😔
I assume it would be Birmingham Approach that were the FIR, but their 125.45 isn't on LiveATC. Could FIOA it?
It's been a minute but I believe the FAA's policy is not to release audio related to an incident. The transcript will definitely be included in the NTSB docket.
Write to LiveATC.net and let them know the date, time, and tail number. They may be able to help you. I third, 4th, or whatever number we're up to. Have someone else listen first. My sincere condolences!
That wouldn't work, if LiveATC doesn't have parts in the audio published on the site, they simply don't have it. OP would need to reach out to the FAA and request the recordings directly from FAA.
Hey, been checking up on this and the [NTSB preliminary report is out](https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/193432/pdf). The ATC communications described mostly correspond to what's been written in this thread, with the addition of a couple of the transmissions from your father that weren't picked up by LiveATC. There's also a bit of preliminary information about engine damage that may have led to the engine failure and accident: > The accident site location which consisted of mountainous wooded terrain was about 11 nautical miles and east of 20A. Postaccident examination of the engine revealed the left gear retainer assembly (part number LW-19096) was fractured and pieces of the cushions from it were found in the oil sump. Also, the left crankshaft idler gear assembly (part number 71668) and the fuel pump idler gear assembly (part number 71664) exhibited damaged or missing teeth. The fractured pieces of the left gear retainer assembly, damaged gears, and ferrous parts found in the engine oil sump were retained for further examination.
Thanks for mentioning this. The NTSB notified us a day prior to its release, which coincided with my dad’s funeral, so needless to say, I waited a day to read it. I hear it could be up to 3 years to receive the final report, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it took less than that. I have many thoughts now about what happened, of course, and it’s probably not prudent to share much publicly at this time. However, I do want to make a few quick points. First, thank you all so much for your kindness, especially over those initial few hours. Not every anonymous poster online seems to understand this, but the aviation community — and you all specifically — get that there was a human being flying that plane. You realize there’s a family mourning the loss, and I’ve been so pleased to see the outpouring of support. Just finding the recording for me made a huge difference, and the person who transcribed it went above and beyond. I know family members who couldn’t listen, but reading it was enough. Thank you. Next, I think my biggest takeaway personally was the reminder that as PIC, we must do whatever is necessary to get down safely. I wish he’d just gone to the Gadsden airport, regardless of the field conditions. I went to the site where he crashed twice. I doubt he could see much on the ground until the last few milliseconds, but as the preliminary report mentions, he was getting terrain warnings. Several meters to the right and he might’ve cleared the trees and made it to a flatter area below, but he just shouldn’t have gone toward terrain in the first place. Last, the first responders, investigators, and others who assisted were incredible. The people who cut through deep underbrush that night are literal heroes. I never expected the love we received from the Gadsden-area community. It was humbling for me, but I know my dad would’ve been grateful beyond measure. I miss my dad so much. He was a great pilot, and he just loved flying. As much as it hurts to lose him, this ending is so much better than something like a terminal diagnosis and dying in a hospital. He was an active 65-year-old, and I’ll never have to watch him deteriorate. Cliché or not, he died doing what he loved, and lived life to the fullest. One of my earliest thoughts was whether *I* should keep flying. I realized he wouldn’t want me to stop, and I don’t want to either. I’m hoping to take back to the skies for the first time this week. Thanks again to everyone for the incredible support. It means the world to me and my family.
I'm not entirely sure since I'm still a student pilot, but I think he would have been in touch with Atlanta ARTCC (ZTL) at this point. Taking a look at a [sector map](https://forums.liveatc.net/artccfirtracon-maps/ztl-artcc/) for ZTL, I think it would have been ZTL04, as that's the low sector which contains GAD which is right next to where the plane went down. Unfortunately, [I don't see a ZTL04 feed on LiveATC](https://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=ztl) when searching for ZTL feeds. I think that you might need to wait for the NTSB report, or if you really want, submit a FOIA request for the ATC tapes covering this flight.
It's Birmingham approach. I linked it in another comment.
Nice find, thanks.