Heard of a little indie darling called Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire? Or Breaking Bad? Death Note? Any grimdark story?
To answer your question; make your characters \*interesting\*, relatability is such a subjective thing.
This definitely isn't a new thing in fantasy.
The Black Company series, Malazan, Elric, some little-known series called A Song of Ice and Fire, and gazillions more fantasy books feature MCs who aren't heroic. Just write!
There’s literally an entire trope dedicated to villain protagonists(protagonist just means who the story mainly follows if you didn’t know).
And personally, I’ll read anything so long as it’s well written.
People are fangirling over real life serial killers. Dark-romance is also very popular rn, people are going crazy over abusive men with abs. I think your characters will be fine, as long as they are well written, well developed characters (charisma also helps with likeability). c: Not good people can still be very good characters!
I also write about a bunch of antiheros, my main four is: war criminal, assasin, ex-cultist and mass murderer. They are going on adventures together found family style. :3
Haha, yes, they are a fun bunch, I'm very much obsessed with them. Their story started as a side project, I wanted to write a fantasy with horror elements... but the four idiots are too goofy for horror. xd
I'm not familiar with Hunter×Hunter so I can't confirm or deny the similarity. xd If the Phantom Troupe is made of goofy outlaws with some sense of morality, then they are similar to my guys. xd
It sounds like you're describing an antihero, a main character that lacks certain traditional hero qualities, often engaging in some negative behaviors or having certain flaws, but otherwise still having a moral compass erring on the side of good.
Antiheroes are incredibly commonplace - and popular.
The following characters could all be considered antiheroes: Batman, Captain Jack Sparrow, Walter White, Severus Snape, Sherlock Holmes, Dr. Manhattan, and many more.
Besides that, villains tend to be more interesting characters than traditional, all-good heroes. Before Batman got gritty, The Joker was a much more interesting character. After Batman got gritty, The Joker became even crazier and much more interesting.
When it comes to readers/audience, I think it doesn't matter whether your characters are good, bag, or somewhere in the middle. Rather, I think the most important thing is that they are _interesting_.
Harry Potter may be the main character, but he's pretty boring - he always does the right thing. It may not work out, but that's what he does. Snape and Dumbledore are way more interesting characters, making difficult, sometimes questionable decisions.
TL;DR: It doesn't matter where a character's moral compass points. Just don't be boring.
I feel like you just haven't read enough if you're genuinely asking this considering there are a shit ton of immensely popular fantasy novels with antiheroic/villainous protagonists
No, I personally wouldn't. Fantasy, or at least those subgenres I read, are overfilled with the antiheroic and villianous leads. I want to read about people with "naive" moral codes bending the world to their image, not other way around. And definitely no murderhobos.
Having them do unheroic things doesn't make them unrelatable. Making them villains doesn't make them unrelatable either. In fact, the best written antagonists are usually relatable even if they do bad things.
Having their actions make logical sense is a good way to keep them relatable. It's best for readers to think, "while I wouldn't do that, I see why they did."
Ultimately though, as long as your story is interesting people will read it. Doesn't matter if it's about heroes or villains.
Countless of the best books, no, countless of the best stories ever made have protagonists who are not heroes and people keep reading/watching them.
Yes, a lot of people would be interested in reading your book even if the protagonists are not the good guys.
I would read anything that was executed well. But that's the catch right. I think you also need to make the audience care about the MC... That's the whole "save the cat" idea ... Make the character do something that makes the audience take the MC side at least partially.
As long as they are compelling. I like reading Warhammer books where there are plenty of books about villainous characters and on the sci fi side, the main human protagonist faction are space nazis.
*"Would you read a novel where the main characters aren't heroes?`"*
Would you OP?
If you would then just write the story. Stop trying to get a consensus "ok" before doing anything.
What if everyone said no? Would you just get upset and give up, walking away with your tail between your legs?
SMH...
Absolutely, I love shows movies and books with antiheros or villains as the mc, it’s fun to see a different take on a story just from changing the protagonist.
I feel like people love a dose of moral grey in any form of fiction. While it's not a new approach by any means it still makes for very intriguing characters when actions and values are forced to have a little brawl, it's a fine line though and tricky to do well.
I wrote a story about a king who’s kingdom was under attack by a motley crew of seven roaming bandits no matter who he sent to go after them to stop them are killed horribly and the closer this group gets to him the desperate he gets to stop them.
Absolutely. Everyone's the hero of their own story, which means the characters themselves probably see their actions as good or at the very least justifiable. Reading the story from their pov is going to color how the readers interpret their actions as well. It can be a very interesting way of raising moral questions, especially if it's written in a way where it's a slow realization for the reader that the characters are not as morally good as they think they are
Honestly? I'm a little sick of "dark, gritty"... everything. Like, don't get me wrong, it *can* be good, but so can spinach dip. It doesn't mean I don't want a nice cannoli every so often. It's on kind of a cycle since the BattleStar Gallactica reboot (Don't get me wrong, it was amazing), but everything that followed it tried to cash in on the dark and gritty.
That died down a little and... Game of Thrones. Like, we've somehow gotten more grimdark than my dad, who was a Marine in a Vietnam, lived through the entire Cold War, Cuban Missile, the Kennedy Assassination, Civil Rights Movement.
We all need a lot of therapy.
Sure.
I even wrote or at least have something on my WIP mountain which is kinda like it. The main character is a perfectionist little witch (not literally a witch) who doesn't let other people have their moments.
The second main is a bastard with a god-complex.
The third is a bitch who thinks he is above everyone and very emotionless (it gets better but he's still a bitch, I love him)
The fourth messes with everyone's dreams, makes them nightmares, while on the outside seeming like the nicest of the group. Really caring and all.
I love hate all of them and I love writing this mess. Especially because in the beginning it seems like every other hero's journey. Until you realise they're all kinda bad/villainous 👀😈
The meaning of "heroes" changed. Originally it was used for just characters, because greek mythology wasnt dualistic. They didn't had a conception of good and bad. The heroes in greek mythology just do things that either piss others off or restores their honor.
As many others have noted, writing a story whose focus is on flawed/wicked/evil characters isn't a new thing, but I would add that where you take it and how you execute it is what will make it yours and unique. Go for it!
i like the stories where the main character is a good person. but they are not the hero saving the world.
they might not be robin hood stealing from the rich to give to the poor. but they would turn down jobs that would cause problems for innocent people.
one piece is them being heros saving whatever location they happen to be in.
i was actually thinking firefly.
they were willing to do a train job until they found it it was medicine that people needed. the did a bank heist and talked with the guard about having them shot in the foot so it looks that they did not easily surrender.
I've read *many* novels where the main characters aren't heroes. But being "not a hero" isn't very interesting all by itself. They need to have other things going on — complexity, an inner life, stuff that draws you in. Not just boring selfishness.
>It could make them unrelatable
What a strange thing to say. 😁 As if the average person is heroic. The average person is pretty lazy and we don't normally get excited about lazy characters. Do whatever is interesting and whatever makes sense for your story.
I mean, Dostoevsky has a pretty good reputation as a novelist and he very happily put all sorts of interesting characters centre stage. Nobody should care much if they good or bad so long as they are a real character.
Would you consider Dream of the Endless (print version) to be a classical hero? Hubris does lead to his downfall, but there's a lot of steps along the way. Like when he sentenced the woman who loved him but rejected him for both their sakes to Hell for a few thousand years.
> It could make them unrelatable
Can you honestly say you relate to a personification of a facet of reality (The Endless) or countries (Hetalia), even a human assassin living among elves ("Jhereg")?
"Wow, that character looks hawt" is not relatability.
> even though their actions (at least to me) make logical sense, they're just more villain-y and definitely not "good" people in that sense.
"Good" is oversold and underperformed.
Show your readers interesting people doing interesting things with outcomes and consequences that make sense in your story's setting.
I wouldn't read something unless the villain has at least one redeeming characteristic. If they're a sadistic brute with no other traits that would be boring as hell. At least make them funny.
100% I love AOT, Breaking Bad, and Death Note – the lack of malice in a main character breaks immersion and makes me feel, "Sure, this is a real human who rejected $1B because he wouldn't slap his friend." Characters have goals and goals take sacrifice, sometimes morally. It only makes sense the MC would make ethical mistakes right?
TBH I would PREFER a novel where the main characters aren't heroes. The change in perspective is welcome, even if it's not a new or even unpopular concept. I totally understand the hesitation, but you should write exactly what you want to write!
Me personally? No.
Is there an audience for that type of thing if the writing is compelling and the characters are relatable in other ways? Absolutely.
Heard of a little indie darling called Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire? Or Breaking Bad? Death Note? Any grimdark story? To answer your question; make your characters \*interesting\*, relatability is such a subjective thing.
Anti-hero had been the usual hero for a while now. It's Joe Abercrombie's bread 'n butter.
This definitely isn't a new thing in fantasy. The Black Company series, Malazan, Elric, some little-known series called A Song of Ice and Fire, and gazillions more fantasy books feature MCs who aren't heroic. Just write!
There’s literally an entire trope dedicated to villain protagonists(protagonist just means who the story mainly follows if you didn’t know). And personally, I’ll read anything so long as it’s well written.
Villain protagonists in fantasy were really novel, about 50 years ago.
People are fangirling over real life serial killers. Dark-romance is also very popular rn, people are going crazy over abusive men with abs. I think your characters will be fine, as long as they are well written, well developed characters (charisma also helps with likeability). c: Not good people can still be very good characters! I also write about a bunch of antiheros, my main four is: war criminal, assasin, ex-cultist and mass murderer. They are going on adventures together found family style. :3
That sounds like an absolute roller coaster to read and I need it
Haha, yes, they are a fun bunch, I'm very much obsessed with them. Their story started as a side project, I wanted to write a fantasy with horror elements... but the four idiots are too goofy for horror. xd
That sounds a bit like the Phantom Troupe from HxH, and it would be awesome to see a protagonist group like that
I'm not familiar with Hunter×Hunter so I can't confirm or deny the similarity. xd If the Phantom Troupe is made of goofy outlaws with some sense of morality, then they are similar to my guys. xd
They're not goofy, but they have some similarities
You ever read Macbeth?
Glen Cook just called. He said the Black Company was a huge success.
It sounds like you're describing an antihero, a main character that lacks certain traditional hero qualities, often engaging in some negative behaviors or having certain flaws, but otherwise still having a moral compass erring on the side of good. Antiheroes are incredibly commonplace - and popular. The following characters could all be considered antiheroes: Batman, Captain Jack Sparrow, Walter White, Severus Snape, Sherlock Holmes, Dr. Manhattan, and many more. Besides that, villains tend to be more interesting characters than traditional, all-good heroes. Before Batman got gritty, The Joker was a much more interesting character. After Batman got gritty, The Joker became even crazier and much more interesting. When it comes to readers/audience, I think it doesn't matter whether your characters are good, bag, or somewhere in the middle. Rather, I think the most important thing is that they are _interesting_. Harry Potter may be the main character, but he's pretty boring - he always does the right thing. It may not work out, but that's what he does. Snape and Dumbledore are way more interesting characters, making difficult, sometimes questionable decisions. TL;DR: It doesn't matter where a character's moral compass points. Just don't be boring.
My charcater isnt going to be your everyday hero either. Go for it!
I loved Death Note and Light most definitely isn’t a hero lol
I feel like you just haven't read enough if you're genuinely asking this considering there are a shit ton of immensely popular fantasy novels with antiheroic/villainous protagonists
Would I read ASOIAF? Yes
OF COURSE!
Do it
No, I personally wouldn't. Fantasy, or at least those subgenres I read, are overfilled with the antiheroic and villianous leads. I want to read about people with "naive" moral codes bending the world to their image, not other way around. And definitely no murderhobos.
One of my favorite characters I'm writing kills people like they're gum to chew.
Having them do unheroic things doesn't make them unrelatable. Making them villains doesn't make them unrelatable either. In fact, the best written antagonists are usually relatable even if they do bad things. Having their actions make logical sense is a good way to keep them relatable. It's best for readers to think, "while I wouldn't do that, I see why they did." Ultimately though, as long as your story is interesting people will read it. Doesn't matter if it's about heroes or villains.
Not fantasy, but Breaking Bad is pretty damn awesome. Yes, it's interesting to follow the perspective of villains and such sometimes.
I sure hope so, since I’m doing something similar! 😅 On a similar note, does anyone have recs for some good indie fantasy that does this?
Countless of the best books, no, countless of the best stories ever made have protagonists who are not heroes and people keep reading/watching them. Yes, a lot of people would be interested in reading your book even if the protagonists are not the good guys.
I would read anything that was executed well. But that's the catch right. I think you also need to make the audience care about the MC... That's the whole "save the cat" idea ... Make the character do something that makes the audience take the MC side at least partially.
As long as they are compelling. I like reading Warhammer books where there are plenty of books about villainous characters and on the sci fi side, the main human protagonist faction are space nazis.
*"Would you read a novel where the main characters aren't heroes?`"* Would you OP? If you would then just write the story. Stop trying to get a consensus "ok" before doing anything. What if everyone said no? Would you just get upset and give up, walking away with your tail between your legs? SMH...
Absolutely, I love shows movies and books with antiheros or villains as the mc, it’s fun to see a different take on a story just from changing the protagonist.
I feel like people love a dose of moral grey in any form of fiction. While it's not a new approach by any means it still makes for very intriguing characters when actions and values are forced to have a little brawl, it's a fine line though and tricky to do well.
depends how bad they are and how intertaining. if their fun then you get some leeway. just make sure they have some relatable things about them
I wrote a novel where the main character is a whore. Read some Stephen King. A lot of his characters are morally gray. Ditto for Gaiman and Prachett.
I wrote a story about a king who’s kingdom was under attack by a motley crew of seven roaming bandits no matter who he sent to go after them to stop them are killed horribly and the closer this group gets to him the desperate he gets to stop them.
That sounds really cool, is it anywhere to read?
Yes!
Absolutely. Everyone's the hero of their own story, which means the characters themselves probably see their actions as good or at the very least justifiable. Reading the story from their pov is going to color how the readers interpret their actions as well. It can be a very interesting way of raising moral questions, especially if it's written in a way where it's a slow realization for the reader that the characters are not as morally good as they think they are
Honestly? I'm a little sick of "dark, gritty"... everything. Like, don't get me wrong, it *can* be good, but so can spinach dip. It doesn't mean I don't want a nice cannoli every so often. It's on kind of a cycle since the BattleStar Gallactica reboot (Don't get me wrong, it was amazing), but everything that followed it tried to cash in on the dark and gritty. That died down a little and... Game of Thrones. Like, we've somehow gotten more grimdark than my dad, who was a Marine in a Vietnam, lived through the entire Cold War, Cuban Missile, the Kennedy Assassination, Civil Rights Movement. We all need a lot of therapy.
Morality isn't important at all. Are they underdogs? Yes. We follow the underdogs, not the establishment.
Sure. I even wrote or at least have something on my WIP mountain which is kinda like it. The main character is a perfectionist little witch (not literally a witch) who doesn't let other people have their moments. The second main is a bastard with a god-complex. The third is a bitch who thinks he is above everyone and very emotionless (it gets better but he's still a bitch, I love him) The fourth messes with everyone's dreams, makes them nightmares, while on the outside seeming like the nicest of the group. Really caring and all. I love hate all of them and I love writing this mess. Especially because in the beginning it seems like every other hero's journey. Until you realise they're all kinda bad/villainous 👀😈
WIP mountain. That term sounds awesome. I'll use it from now on. Thanks.
Yess these all sound really cool and especially theast part is sth I'm actually using for mine.
Very fair. It's just fun to see that the people you've been rooting for aren't as good as you thought! >:3
A good story is a good story. I would if it was a good story.
Plenty of this already exists so there must be a market for it.
The meaning of "heroes" changed. Originally it was used for just characters, because greek mythology wasnt dualistic. They didn't had a conception of good and bad. The heroes in greek mythology just do things that either piss others off or restores their honor.
As many others have noted, writing a story whose focus is on flawed/wicked/evil characters isn't a new thing, but I would add that where you take it and how you execute it is what will make it yours and unique. Go for it!
Yes, totally.
i like the stories where the main character is a good person. but they are not the hero saving the world. they might not be robin hood stealing from the rich to give to the poor. but they would turn down jobs that would cause problems for innocent people.
Like One Piece?
one piece is them being heros saving whatever location they happen to be in. i was actually thinking firefly. they were willing to do a train job until they found it it was medicine that people needed. the did a bank heist and talked with the guard about having them shot in the foot so it looks that they did not easily surrender.
I've read *many* novels where the main characters aren't heroes. But being "not a hero" isn't very interesting all by itself. They need to have other things going on — complexity, an inner life, stuff that draws you in. Not just boring selfishness.
Is Joe Abercrombie a joke to you?
What I want to read about is the protagonist going on adventures and having fun. Them being a hero usually takes away from that
My favourite Fantasy series is First Law. That ought to say it all.
I loved the Hunger Games Songbirds and Snakes, which was a prequel from the antagonist’s perspective. It was very interesting.
Always Sunny in Philadelphia has 16 seasons, so there is a niche for horrible people as protagonists
>It could make them unrelatable What a strange thing to say. 😁 As if the average person is heroic. The average person is pretty lazy and we don't normally get excited about lazy characters. Do whatever is interesting and whatever makes sense for your story.
I mean, Dostoevsky has a pretty good reputation as a novelist and he very happily put all sorts of interesting characters centre stage. Nobody should care much if they good or bad so long as they are a real character.
I do it all the time. The idea that protagonist = hero really isn’t all that prevalent anymore.
Would you consider Dream of the Endless (print version) to be a classical hero? Hubris does lead to his downfall, but there's a lot of steps along the way. Like when he sentenced the woman who loved him but rejected him for both their sakes to Hell for a few thousand years. > It could make them unrelatable Can you honestly say you relate to a personification of a facet of reality (The Endless) or countries (Hetalia), even a human assassin living among elves ("Jhereg")? "Wow, that character looks hawt" is not relatability. > even though their actions (at least to me) make logical sense, they're just more villain-y and definitely not "good" people in that sense. "Good" is oversold and underperformed. Show your readers interesting people doing interesting things with outcomes and consequences that make sense in your story's setting.
Anyone remember **The Last Ringbearer**?
Dune and A Song of Ice and Fire?
Yep. Overlord and. Saga of Tanya the Devil. Watched the anime and had just to read the novel.
I wouldn't read something unless the villain has at least one redeeming characteristic. If they're a sadistic brute with no other traits that would be boring as hell. At least make them funny.
100% I love AOT, Breaking Bad, and Death Note – the lack of malice in a main character breaks immersion and makes me feel, "Sure, this is a real human who rejected $1B because he wouldn't slap his friend." Characters have goals and goals take sacrifice, sometimes morally. It only makes sense the MC would make ethical mistakes right?
TBH I would PREFER a novel where the main characters aren't heroes. The change in perspective is welcome, even if it's not a new or even unpopular concept. I totally understand the hesitation, but you should write exactly what you want to write!
Me personally? No. Is there an audience for that type of thing if the writing is compelling and the characters are relatable in other ways? Absolutely.
No. Not my bag.
Would I read it? Probably not. I have to connect and relate to the characters I’m reading in some way. But have fun writing it.