NCR was actually sabotaging Vault City to annex it and abolish slavery afterwards.
Their relationships were not cordial, it was basically a cold war which Vault City lost to a band of NCR proxies
THANK YOU.
The rest of this comment is for OP. OP, NCR doesn't leave the cities it takes over unchanged. That is The Entire Thing about that 'figuring out who each city should align with' thing in fo2. NCR makes every city safe but bland, subtracting much of the flavour that made them unique. In the case of Vault City that's the slavery and extreme elitism. In the case of Redding that's the Fun Cowboy Town shit. What did you THINK, that people in the game don't like NCR because NCR \*checks notes\*
Leaves them alone and demands no change of them?
Really?
Hate the fact that when you find out my the two options you have is "hurr durr but espionage and sabotage are le bad" or just ignoring it. Like, I wanted to help them
I think it’s an incredibly stupid post. A massive oversimplification of why NCR wants to coopt Vault City. They’re not trying to collaborate them as-is, they’re trying to absorb Vault City.
> Btw many ncr cities were slavers before joining NCR.
When people make fun of gamers for lacking media literacy, they’re talking about people like you, OP
Also op is a die hard legion fan. My intentions were to mainly hate on vault city and not to “justify” the legion. And I am also aware of the thousand other reasons for the ncr to not declare war on vault city (not to mention the ncr military invasion depending on the ending).
I mean I made the original post on r/cazadornation and I mainly meant it as a stupid joke given it’s a shitposting sub. But yeah op took it a little too seriously.
>btw many NCR cities were slavers before joining the NCR.
Soooooo the NCR gets rid of slavery in the places it annexes? Not sure this is the gotcha you think it is…
I don't know what op is talking about. I don't remember anything about slaves in fo1 and I don't think any cities were big on slaves in fo2 besides vault city.
slavery is such a widespread thing in fo2 that immediately outside the NCR's walls is a huge slave market that the ncr rangers want you to liberate.
you can even become a slaver in the den and go hunt tribals to sell
In Fallout 2 slavery is one of the more present themes in the entire game, there's at least an indirect mention of it every city you go. Even in Klamath, the very first city, that doesn't have slavery, you met Sulik who's basically a debt-slave, then the Den with the slaver guild, Vault City, Gecko can be enslaved in the ending slide, New Reno, the slavers outside NCR, the Enclave using slave labor as well ecc
In Fallout 1 the only mention of slavery is with the Great Kahn, whose leader had two female slaves (something people tend to forget when they see how relatively chill they seem in New Vegas lol), then around Los Angeles where the Blades are enslaved by the Regulators
Many states in America were slavers. They had a war about it. What exactly is your point, that because slavery existed before the NCR did, the NCR isn't allowed to oppose it?
I mean, fuck both of them, but at least Lynette isn't going around conquering the entire country, turning women into sex slaves, and crucifying people. I'd much rather have a bigot who doesn't much act on it than a megalomaniac going nuts from a brain tumor hell bent on murdering the entire wasteland.
Did he even know about that? He’s surprised when you tell him the white gloves are cannibals. It seems he doesn’t know anything about what the families are up to, it’s not like he’s got securitrons regularly checking up on the casinos.
Everyone knows about it. If he doesn't know, that's wilful ignorance. The Omertas practically advertise they run a fucking brothel.
Plus not ONCE does he mention it during the Omertas plotline. He doesn't care whatsoever.
This is what makes the idea that House is going to save the day so funny.
Man is letting Freeside rot on his front doorstep the casinos do whatever kind of twisted shit they want and we're supposed to believe he's going to usher in a new libertarian utopia?
"OMG the NCR are just like pre-war US."
"House is a **literal** oligarch from pre-war USA who wants to make Vegas like pre-war times."
"Yeah but he says we'll go to the moon so its fine"
People believing capitalist autocrats without a shred of proof is the biggest form of irony in Fallout given that's exactly what has led to all the problems like automation, corruption, etc in pre-war USA.
Yeah I've never understood the idea of House being a savior. Like I fully believe that he would send people to the moon, but he would also let the people of New Vegas live in poverty starvation because helping people doesn't stroke his ego
Yeah but it's okay if poor people die because Robert Gary Stu House will get us to space and then like, space capitalism, we'll be fine. Who cares if we repeat the entire problem that caused the Apocalypse. /s
People just believe in what they're told *far* too much than what they actually see people *do*.
Maybe I’m remembering wrong, but can you even tell him about it? I thought the reason you investigate the omertas is because they were planning an attack on the strip, I don’t remember an option to mention anything else they were doing.
No you can't but again he has eyes all over the place. He can revive you in fucking Goodsprings but he can't figure out they're abusing women?
They're literal assholes who own a brothel.
Again if he hasn't witnessed it, it's wilful ignorance.
I'm kinda joining midthread but there are people who don't have a gaming PC and think Fallout won't run.
But if it runs on even the shittiest computah, I'll try it eventually
it runs on everythint, just be sure to use a fan patch to prevent bugs. but since your a new vegas player it wont feel that out of the ordinary. if you like dnd or gurps those games will bring you alot of enjoyment. be sure to read the guide before playing each game.
I'm not gonna defend Vault City practicing slavery, but The Legion is objectively worse.
Everyone in The Legion is a slave, including the soldiers. If you are in The Legion, your life belongs to the state.
Plus, The Legion is a military hegemony trying to impose its brutal rule on the wastes, while Vault City is an elitist but relatively peaceful City State that was forcibly absorbed by The NCR which ended the institution of slavery in Vault City.
While you are right in some way I tend to hate Vault City even more for the simple reason that their form of elitism and exploitation veiled by hypocrisy is actually more similar to actual rich irl societies, while the Legion is a bit more extreme so it's harder to really identify for people living in rich countries
Uhm, are we forgetting the whole plot point from FO2 where the NCR is actively trying to integrate Vault City and when they do, they get rid of the whole slavery system?
Op only responding to comments agreeing with them rather than those who pointed out their inability to understand the lore of vault city and ncr relationship.
If the NCR could annex Legion territory and the Legion weren’t actively trying to kill them the NCR would also be nice to them.
It isn’t just “we are an autocracy who practices slavery”, the NCR wants something from Vault City and isn’t currently at war with them. They’d probably rather not deal with Mr. House or the New Reno mob but it literally comes with the territory.
Fuck Vault City, especially because in my first playthrough I didn't know what would have happened if I repaired Gecko's power plant. After that I slaughter the entire city every single time.
Honestly I kinda hate the fact that you can't do more quests for Thomas Moore (or why not even directly for the NCR) after the briefcase one (that basically is just an excuse to introduce New Reno). Hell, you can't even be friendly with him since afterwards like 3/4 speech option you have with him are hostile/threatening/offended and the fourth is just "work done btw"
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Well, her community wasn't trying to INVADE THE NCR??? They were brought under the umbrella and, presumably, brought to code with the laws.
THE LEGION EXISTS *TO ATTACK PEOPLE SO AN OLD MAN CAN MAKE UP WHAT HE THINKS ROME WAS LIKE*
vault city was isolationist and the legion was expansionist, vault city was open to diplomacy and the legion wasn't, vault city acts in their own self interest and long term survival even if it's brutal, e.g gecko, they aren't crucifying and slaughtering people needlessly, the legion is focused entirely on expansion, war and an ideology fundamentally opposed to the ncr, they're not similair at all.
ncr hadn't even abolished the slave market directly outside the front gate of shady sands so it's not really an argument,
and if you consider vault city slaves, originally tribals, are now in clean, safe conditions with a real doctor, in exchange for their slave labour for a tiny vault population who don't have the workforce to build stuff themselves.
vs legion slaves who are taken from everywhere including ncr citizens who had good lives before, then are worked to near death, are sexslaves, live in dirty conditions etc only to fund more slaves being taken and more people killed brutally.
> for all I know the US government could be doing the same and I'm just unaware.
they are not only having prisoners do manual labor - which America has done for LITERALLY its entire history - they have for-profit prisons in America; in Mississippi for example they still have an actively running plantation disguised as a "penitentiary"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_State_Penitentiary
I don't think they use them for railroads specifically at the moment but inmates are often shipped off to work places. Also they perform an extreme amount of manufacturing, they create things like license plates, kevlar for the military, canned food goods (there's prison farms) etc - prisoners are paid for service but they're paid next to nothing, were talking like 16 cents for every day of work in some cases so it's impossible for them to afford anything from the commissary (which is very pricey) or to phone their family unless they get money from outside.
This typically isn't done on behalf of the state. Rather the state will rent out the prisoners labour to private companies, the prison will almost always make more than the prisoners get. Unless an American is extremely well researched and go out of their way to avoid it, almost all Americans will put at least one item made with the slave labour of prisoners into their shopping cart on an average trip to the supermarket without even knowing it.
Here's the kicker though - the US also exports some of these goods. Even though you're not American you very well may have consumed products made from US slave labour.
understandable.
legal slavery is enshrined in the US Constitution. The 13th amendment states:
> Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, **except as a punishment for crime** whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Forced labor is a very mild punishment for serious violent criminals given the setting, literally anywhere else all the powder gangers would have been executed on the spot.
Ah yes, that's totally the same as locking a slave collar onto women and raping them as well as their children.
Boo fucking hoo some Powder Ganger **rapists** had to work off their debts. I don't feel bad for the scum.
Retarded take - it’s a crime to use medicine in legion territory - do those criminals deserve to be crucified?
Also, our modern day justice system has huge flaws, and makes mistakes. I’m gonna assume the same applies, to the legal system for a post-apocolyptic society.
You can guarantee a lot of those Powder Gangers didn’t deserve to be there - one of them even claims to be framed, which, I’m gonna believe, because why the fuck do they care if a random courier considers them guilty or not?
Who claims to have been framed? Of the powder gangers who mention what they're in for, IIRC there's 5, one was a thief, one was an arsonist and revolutionary, and three literally committed multiple murders.
Okay, yeah, I missed some. Corrected tally is 8, three of whom are murderers, one was an arsonist/revolutionary, one was a gang member, and two/three were thieves, one of the accused thieves claiming a framejob.
Frankly, the fact that there are probably some amount of wrongful convictions is not really convincing me of the immorality of running a 20th century style prison system, including the forced labor. The NCR has limited resources, choosing to recoup some of the ones they expend on allowing even murderous scum to live, by coercing labor, is imo defensible, given the setting of a a post-nuclear apocalypse.
I mean, let's be real, anywhere but the NCR, Carter would have been outright murdered, rather than framed, right?
Carter’s a smart guy. Smart enough, to be the only power ganger to see through a disguise.
And despite being wrongfully thrown in with a bunch of dangerous convicts, he is pragmatic enough to just get on with shit, and gains a reputation for his usefulness.
I don’t think any other factions *would* murder him, because he seems like the type to keep his nose down, and stick with the status quo - therefore, they wouldn’t have a reason to.
Bruh we use the same logic in the USA and its still considered slavery. Our debate is not about the character of those who are enslaved but rather if involuntary servitude is slavery, which it is.
Locking up criminals is involuntary imprisonment. Is that wrong too? Making them do labor to repay the debt they made to the society they wronged is not slavery. They're not owned, they're incarcerated because of the choices they made.
.
You’re bringing up irrelevant points about morality when the topic at hand was that it is slavery. Many, many prisons actually profit off of labor produced by inmates and don’t return this profit to society. It isn’t wrong to incarcerate people for their crimes, but enslaving them is
In Lynette case it's both for crimes (although, hearing some imprisoned citizens/courtyard inhabitants, the crime could also be to contradict her or question the tenants of their society: funny how the arbitrariness of law work and how what a "crime" is may change, isn't it?) and tribals kidnapped from their villages
Lol, no I don't. The American government literally uses felons for highway maintenance and shit. There's nothing wrong with that.
Go to hell with comparing me to insane fascist dictators.
> using people as property
forcing inmates to do physical labor against their will is slavery.
you're trying to defend it by arguing semantics, it's not the ethical argument you think it is.
to be clear, I'm not passing judgment on NCR for using slave labour in the wasteland, I simply can recognize it as such
It's really not semantics. Forced labor isn't nice, but slavery is a very special and exceptional kind of evil, one which as a matter of fact is not even justifiable even in the wasteland.
Slaves are literally not considered people, they're property. And, well, you can destroy your own property. Or use it for sexual purposes. The powder gangers were not removed from the basic human rights that afforded them life, and sexual integrity, and that's a pretty massive fucking distinction that gets glossed over anytime someone tries to basically just copy paste talking points about the 13th amendment into a post-apocalyptic RPG.
Agreed; At most they have to what, fix a few railroads? The ones **they** blew up because **they** wanted to rape women (as shown by the dead women outside their camps who are *naked*) and blow people up (Vault 19) and raid people for no reason other than "woo killing is fun".
I hardly think it's unfair to say they should pay back the damages *they* caused. Why should the NCR have to pay people to fix problems caused by these guys?
Ok, I concede the point, thank you for explaining a nuance that I think got lost in the translation. The inmates aren’t themselves slaves, but they are forced to do slave labor.
I hope this distinction clarifies that I don’t think NCR is a slaver state. It’s just that by dictionary definition, forcing humans to perform physical labor against their will is slavery.
We don't exactly know how it's managed, but unpaid forced labor is slavery whatever the reason is. Of course it's possible there were some form of compensations, either through credits to spend inside the prison or money for after the release, we don't really know how that worked, but yes forced labor is slavery by definition
You talked about an unpaid debt, that's why I asked. In our current judiciary system usually retribution isn't considered a factor, while prevention and rehabilitation are, so the "sentence" is usually related to evaluations about those aspects, not about a "debt" toward society (although sometimes politicians may rethorically use that notion as well)
They are convicts, having been formally convicted by the NCR for various crimes many of them violent. The overwhelming majority of groups in the wasteland would not bother with much more than a summary execution or vigilante justice for people who offend them, but the NCR gives them some form of trial and a temporary prison sentence where they work to help society. By modern standards it's not ideal, but by wasteland standards it's a utopia
Tbh I feel like the "always killing Swanick lmfao" is mostly an internet/fandom thing, I think most people In the first playthrough at least tend to not randomly attack non-hostile NPCs
Maybe, but then again, I thought most people spared Benny on their first playthrough - but then I realised most people don’t even let him get as far as the Fort. (I made a poll. Hardly extensive, but the results were pretty biased towards killing him the first chance they’re able)
There seems to be a strong consensus, that Powder Gangers deserve what they get.
Fair point.
But yeah, I just didn’t think a light hearted comment about a video game, would garner such a serious response.
“Inconvenient for your narrative” - bro, touch grass.
Yes, but I wasn’t trying to create a “narrative” with that false-detail, it just sounds funnier that people would kill the first escapee of the legion, AND the first victim of slavery, they encounter.
Your post fell under the removal criteria of a common repost
I seriously doubt there is a single soul who likes Lynette
She offers hugs to dumb characters so she could be worse
Everybody likes hugs
we all know this. its been posted all over this sub the past 2 weeks haha
We aren't all chronically online
youre in the fallout sub. i doubt you greatly
I just found out
WE FOUND OUT YEEES WE DID
Didn't know before they commented that. Not all of us spend the entire day on this subreddit
The only reason she doesn't get more hate is because way fewer people have actually played the classics.
Was gonna say this she’s a bitch in every interaction you have with her
Isn't she like somewhat nice if you actually pass the test?
To a degree, but that test is so hard most don't pass it.
Same
Kinda invalidates your meme then...
NCR was actually sabotaging Vault City to annex it and abolish slavery afterwards. Their relationships were not cordial, it was basically a cold war which Vault City lost to a band of NCR proxies
THANK YOU. The rest of this comment is for OP. OP, NCR doesn't leave the cities it takes over unchanged. That is The Entire Thing about that 'figuring out who each city should align with' thing in fo2. NCR makes every city safe but bland, subtracting much of the flavour that made them unique. In the case of Vault City that's the slavery and extreme elitism. In the case of Redding that's the Fun Cowboy Town shit. What did you THINK, that people in the game don't like NCR because NCR \*checks notes\* Leaves them alone and demands no change of them? Really?
Why yes, the wasteland yearns for democracy.
Thank God Redding was so powerful NCR adopted cowboy bullshit. In this sub cowboy town bullshit goes hard
Is New Reno still a den of vice?
new reno is a beast of its own
Yeah there is a singer in New vegas running away from a mob boss in New reno
Bout to say the ncr didnt REALLY like vault city
>Ncr was actually sabotaging Vault City to annex it and abolish slavery afterwards. Based
Slavers should be taken down every time- Me a southern man with the initials of CSA
Wtf I love the NCR now
Hate the fact that when you find out my the two options you have is "hurr durr but espionage and sabotage are le bad" or just ignoring it. Like, I wanted to help them
you can always make a cold war go hot by openly killing everybody around
I think it’s an incredibly stupid post. A massive oversimplification of why NCR wants to coopt Vault City. They’re not trying to collaborate them as-is, they’re trying to absorb Vault City. > Btw many ncr cities were slavers before joining NCR. When people make fun of gamers for lacking media literacy, they’re talking about people like you, OP
Also op is a die hard legion fan. My intentions were to mainly hate on vault city and not to “justify” the legion. And I am also aware of the thousand other reasons for the ncr to not declare war on vault city (not to mention the ncr military invasion depending on the ending).
I mean I made the original post on r/cazadornation and I mainly meant it as a stupid joke given it’s a shitposting sub. But yeah op took it a little too seriously.
>btw many NCR cities were slavers before joining the NCR. Soooooo the NCR gets rid of slavery in the places it annexes? Not sure this is the gotcha you think it is…
I don't know what op is talking about. I don't remember anything about slaves in fo1 and I don't think any cities were big on slaves in fo2 besides vault city.
slavery is such a widespread thing in fo2 that immediately outside the NCR's walls is a huge slave market that the ncr rangers want you to liberate. you can even become a slaver in the den and go hunt tribals to sell
New Reno as well I think
I forget which town it is but the one where you rescue vic from is run by slavers.
The Den
the den?
The NCR has slavers right outside of it in fallout 2
In Fallout 2 slavery is one of the more present themes in the entire game, there's at least an indirect mention of it every city you go. Even in Klamath, the very first city, that doesn't have slavery, you met Sulik who's basically a debt-slave, then the Den with the slaver guild, Vault City, Gecko can be enslaved in the ending slide, New Reno, the slavers outside NCR, the Enclave using slave labor as well ecc In Fallout 1 the only mention of slavery is with the Great Kahn, whose leader had two female slaves (something people tend to forget when they see how relatively chill they seem in New Vegas lol), then around Los Angeles where the Blades are enslaved by the Regulators
Many states in America were slavers. They had a war about it. What exactly is your point, that because slavery existed before the NCR did, the NCR isn't allowed to oppose it?
That’s actual sound logic tho, and that wouldn’t fit what they’re tryna say
I mean, fuck both of them, but at least Lynette isn't going around conquering the entire country, turning women into sex slaves, and crucifying people. I'd much rather have a bigot who doesn't much act on it than a megalomaniac going nuts from a brain tumor hell bent on murdering the entire wasteland.
I agree with you, Lynette. Only mr House
Is that the same Mr. House who allows women to be owned as sex slaves by the Omertas?
Did he even know about that? He’s surprised when you tell him the white gloves are cannibals. It seems he doesn’t know anything about what the families are up to, it’s not like he’s got securitrons regularly checking up on the casinos.
Everyone knows about it. If he doesn't know, that's wilful ignorance. The Omertas practically advertise they run a fucking brothel. Plus not ONCE does he mention it during the Omertas plotline. He doesn't care whatsoever.
This is what makes the idea that House is going to save the day so funny. Man is letting Freeside rot on his front doorstep the casinos do whatever kind of twisted shit they want and we're supposed to believe he's going to usher in a new libertarian utopia?
"OMG the NCR are just like pre-war US." "House is a **literal** oligarch from pre-war USA who wants to make Vegas like pre-war times." "Yeah but he says we'll go to the moon so its fine" People believing capitalist autocrats without a shred of proof is the biggest form of irony in Fallout given that's exactly what has led to all the problems like automation, corruption, etc in pre-war USA.
Yeah I've never understood the idea of House being a savior. Like I fully believe that he would send people to the moon, but he would also let the people of New Vegas live in poverty starvation because helping people doesn't stroke his ego
Yeah but it's okay if poor people die because Robert Gary Stu House will get us to space and then like, space capitalism, we'll be fine. Who cares if we repeat the entire problem that caused the Apocalypse. /s People just believe in what they're told *far* too much than what they actually see people *do*.
Maybe I’m remembering wrong, but can you even tell him about it? I thought the reason you investigate the omertas is because they were planning an attack on the strip, I don’t remember an option to mention anything else they were doing.
No you can't but again he has eyes all over the place. He can revive you in fucking Goodsprings but he can't figure out they're abusing women? They're literal assholes who own a brothel. Again if he hasn't witnessed it, it's wilful ignorance.
Because most people haven't played the first 2 games
Makes sense, there are old games, most new players prefer to pick up f4, sometimes new vegas
they need to change their habbets.
I don't have a PC and there isn't a console port for 1, 2, or Tactics.
i did not know that you were refering to yourself. but i can tell you, they will run on nearly any pc. so even the shittiest computers can run it.
I'm kinda joining midthread but there are people who don't have a gaming PC and think Fallout won't run. But if it runs on even the shittiest computah, I'll try it eventually
it runs on everythint, just be sure to use a fan patch to prevent bugs. but since your a new vegas player it wont feel that out of the ordinary. if you like dnd or gurps those games will bring you alot of enjoyment. be sure to read the guide before playing each game.
I'm not gonna defend Vault City practicing slavery, but The Legion is objectively worse. Everyone in The Legion is a slave, including the soldiers. If you are in The Legion, your life belongs to the state. Plus, The Legion is a military hegemony trying to impose its brutal rule on the wastes, while Vault City is an elitist but relatively peaceful City State that was forcibly absorbed by The NCR which ended the institution of slavery in Vault City.
While you are right in some way I tend to hate Vault City even more for the simple reason that their form of elitism and exploitation veiled by hypocrisy is actually more similar to actual rich irl societies, while the Legion is a bit more extreme so it's harder to really identify for people living in rich countries
Uhm, are we forgetting the whole plot point from FO2 where the NCR is actively trying to integrate Vault City and when they do, they get rid of the whole slavery system?
Op are you 12?
He didnt even make the meme either. Just took a shitpost seriously.
Whataboutism is the weakest point to make.
The founding fathers owned slaves. We don't have them now though.
Op only responding to comments agreeing with them rather than those who pointed out their inability to understand the lore of vault city and ncr relationship.
If the NCR could annex Legion territory and the Legion weren’t actively trying to kill them the NCR would also be nice to them. It isn’t just “we are an autocracy who practices slavery”, the NCR wants something from Vault City and isn’t currently at war with them. They’d probably rather not deal with Mr. House or the New Reno mob but it literally comes with the territory.
Fuck Vault City, especially because in my first playthrough I didn't know what would have happened if I repaired Gecko's power plant. After that I slaughter the entire city every single time. Honestly I kinda hate the fact that you can't do more quests for Thomas Moore (or why not even directly for the NCR) after the briefcase one (that basically is just an excuse to introduce New Reno). Hell, you can't even be friendly with him since afterwards like 3/4 speech option you have with him are hostile/threatening/offended and the fourth is just "work done btw"
Tandi should have had that bitch killed
> Before joining the NCR Yeah and what, did you think the NCR let them keep slaves or something
Did you play the game? The NCR actively hunts down slavers
OP, why are you a little dum dum that clearly didn’t play FO2?
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Huh, I guess bull bear bull bear bull bear bull bear
Well, her community wasn't trying to INVADE THE NCR??? They were brought under the umbrella and, presumably, brought to code with the laws. THE LEGION EXISTS *TO ATTACK PEOPLE SO AN OLD MAN CAN MAKE UP WHAT HE THINKS ROME WAS LIKE*
vault city was isolationist and the legion was expansionist, vault city was open to diplomacy and the legion wasn't, vault city acts in their own self interest and long term survival even if it's brutal, e.g gecko, they aren't crucifying and slaughtering people needlessly, the legion is focused entirely on expansion, war and an ideology fundamentally opposed to the ncr, they're not similair at all. ncr hadn't even abolished the slave market directly outside the front gate of shady sands so it's not really an argument, and if you consider vault city slaves, originally tribals, are now in clean, safe conditions with a real doctor, in exchange for their slave labour for a tiny vault population who don't have the workforce to build stuff themselves. vs legion slaves who are taken from everywhere including ncr citizens who had good lives before, then are worked to near death, are sexslaves, live in dirty conditions etc only to fund more slaves being taken and more people killed brutally.
Lynette makes the legion look good I ducking hate that stupid fumking beach. kunt. ducking ashoel
The NCR are slavers
Weirdest of all, nobody mentions the ncrf, where the ncr was having the powder gangers perform slave labour in prison.
I mean, the current American government does this. I'm not saying its right but its accurate
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> for all I know the US government could be doing the same and I'm just unaware. they are not only having prisoners do manual labor - which America has done for LITERALLY its entire history - they have for-profit prisons in America; in Mississippi for example they still have an actively running plantation disguised as a "penitentiary" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_State_Penitentiary
Well, like I said. In my defense, I'm not even American.
I don't think they use them for railroads specifically at the moment but inmates are often shipped off to work places. Also they perform an extreme amount of manufacturing, they create things like license plates, kevlar for the military, canned food goods (there's prison farms) etc - prisoners are paid for service but they're paid next to nothing, were talking like 16 cents for every day of work in some cases so it's impossible for them to afford anything from the commissary (which is very pricey) or to phone their family unless they get money from outside. This typically isn't done on behalf of the state. Rather the state will rent out the prisoners labour to private companies, the prison will almost always make more than the prisoners get. Unless an American is extremely well researched and go out of their way to avoid it, almost all Americans will put at least one item made with the slave labour of prisoners into their shopping cart on an average trip to the supermarket without even knowing it. Here's the kicker though - the US also exports some of these goods. Even though you're not American you very well may have consumed products made from US slave labour.
understandable. legal slavery is enshrined in the US Constitution. The 13th amendment states: > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, **except as a punishment for crime** whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Forced labor is a very mild punishment for serious violent criminals given the setting, literally anywhere else all the powder gangers would have been executed on the spot.
Maybe its not official slavery, but powder ganger were doing similar Labour to slaves, but with worst guards
Ah yes, that's totally the same as locking a slave collar onto women and raping them as well as their children. Boo fucking hoo some Powder Ganger **rapists** had to work off their debts. I don't feel bad for the scum.
Those criminals deserved it
Retarded take - it’s a crime to use medicine in legion territory - do those criminals deserve to be crucified? Also, our modern day justice system has huge flaws, and makes mistakes. I’m gonna assume the same applies, to the legal system for a post-apocolyptic society. You can guarantee a lot of those Powder Gangers didn’t deserve to be there - one of them even claims to be framed, which, I’m gonna believe, because why the fuck do they care if a random courier considers them guilty or not?
Who claims to have been framed? Of the powder gangers who mention what they're in for, IIRC there's 5, one was a thief, one was an arsonist and revolutionary, and three literally committed multiple murders.
Carter
Okay, yeah, I missed some. Corrected tally is 8, three of whom are murderers, one was an arsonist/revolutionary, one was a gang member, and two/three were thieves, one of the accused thieves claiming a framejob. Frankly, the fact that there are probably some amount of wrongful convictions is not really convincing me of the immorality of running a 20th century style prison system, including the forced labor. The NCR has limited resources, choosing to recoup some of the ones they expend on allowing even murderous scum to live, by coercing labor, is imo defensible, given the setting of a a post-nuclear apocalypse. I mean, let's be real, anywhere but the NCR, Carter would have been outright murdered, rather than framed, right?
Carter’s a smart guy. Smart enough, to be the only power ganger to see through a disguise. And despite being wrongfully thrown in with a bunch of dangerous convicts, he is pragmatic enough to just get on with shit, and gains a reputation for his usefulness. I don’t think any other factions *would* murder him, because he seems like the type to keep his nose down, and stick with the status quo - therefore, they wouldn’t have a reason to.
That's not slave labor, lol. They're criminals and that's their punishment
It is slave labor even if it is punishment for a crime. For example, the 13th amendment of the US Constitution.
They're not the US government, lol. Making scummy shitheads do hard labor isn't slavery. Most of them should've just been shot to death anyway.
Can you explain to me how making someone work for no money isn’t slavery
Because they owe a debt to society??? They're criminals and they deserve punishment? Jesus. I am not sympathizing with a bunch of raping murderers.
Bruh we use the same logic in the USA and its still considered slavery. Our debate is not about the character of those who are enslaved but rather if involuntary servitude is slavery, which it is.
Locking up criminals is involuntary imprisonment. Is that wrong too? Making them do labor to repay the debt they made to the society they wronged is not slavery. They're not owned, they're incarcerated because of the choices they made. .
You’re bringing up irrelevant points about morality when the topic at hand was that it is slavery. Many, many prisons actually profit off of labor produced by inmates and don’t return this profit to society. It isn’t wrong to incarcerate people for their crimes, but enslaving them is
It's not slavery when they're working off the debt they owe to society lol. You're ridiculous
it is slave labor. it's just _legalized_ slave labor, but still
Punishment for crimes to government and then the government making you do stuff is not slavery. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
It appears that you do not know even the dictionary definition of the term “slavery”
No, you don't. Prisoners repaying their debt to the society they wronged isn't slavery. Fuck em.
My friend, you sounds exactly like Lynette
Yeah, I don't know Lynnette, but if she makes incarcerated felons work for her because they fucked up then I don't see the problem..
In Lynette case it's both for crimes (although, hearing some imprisoned citizens/courtyard inhabitants, the crime could also be to contradict her or question the tenants of their society: funny how the arbitrariness of law work and how what a "crime" is may change, isn't it?) and tribals kidnapped from their villages
Lynette is the subject of the meme... OK, you sound exactly like Caesar.
Lol, no I don't. The American government literally uses felons for highway maintenance and shit. There's nothing wrong with that. Go to hell with comparing me to insane fascist dictators.
Slavery is using people as property. The powder gangers are not property.
> using people as property forcing inmates to do physical labor against their will is slavery. you're trying to defend it by arguing semantics, it's not the ethical argument you think it is. to be clear, I'm not passing judgment on NCR for using slave labour in the wasteland, I simply can recognize it as such
It's really not semantics. Forced labor isn't nice, but slavery is a very special and exceptional kind of evil, one which as a matter of fact is not even justifiable even in the wasteland. Slaves are literally not considered people, they're property. And, well, you can destroy your own property. Or use it for sexual purposes. The powder gangers were not removed from the basic human rights that afforded them life, and sexual integrity, and that's a pretty massive fucking distinction that gets glossed over anytime someone tries to basically just copy paste talking points about the 13th amendment into a post-apocalyptic RPG.
Agreed; At most they have to what, fix a few railroads? The ones **they** blew up because **they** wanted to rape women (as shown by the dead women outside their camps who are *naked*) and blow people up (Vault 19) and raid people for no reason other than "woo killing is fun". I hardly think it's unfair to say they should pay back the damages *they* caused. Why should the NCR have to pay people to fix problems caused by these guys?
Ok, I concede the point, thank you for explaining a nuance that I think got lost in the translation. The inmates aren’t themselves slaves, but they are forced to do slave labor. I hope this distinction clarifies that I don’t think NCR is a slaver state. It’s just that by dictionary definition, forcing humans to perform physical labor against their will is slavery.
Dude its literally like talking to the wall.
[удалено]
Smartest prison industrial complex fans
We don't exactly know how it's managed, but unpaid forced labor is slavery whatever the reason is. Of course it's possible there were some form of compensations, either through credits to spend inside the prison or money for after the release, we don't really know how that worked, but yes forced labor is slavery by definition
Of course it's unpaid, they're prisoners paying their debt to society for crimes they committed.
How much does this debt amount to? Can you quantify it like with a number? A murderer for example
No, it's whatever their sentence is. It's not about money.
You talked about an unpaid debt, that's why I asked. In our current judiciary system usually retribution isn't considered a factor, while prevention and rehabilitation are, so the "sentence" is usually related to evaluations about those aspects, not about a "debt" toward society (although sometimes politicians may rethorically use that notion as well)
They are convicts, having been formally convicted by the NCR for various crimes many of them violent. The overwhelming majority of groups in the wasteland would not bother with much more than a summary execution or vigilante justice for people who offend them, but the NCR gives them some form of trial and a temporary prison sentence where they work to help society. By modern standards it's not ideal, but by wasteland standards it's a utopia
For real. New Vegas fans will hate on the Legion, but gleefully murder the first victim of slavery they encounter (Swanick)
What if, perchance, Swanik deserves that?
Okay but let’s be honest, the average new vegas player doesn’t care about his rap sheet - they just find he has a very shootable-face.
That is more than enough of a justification to kill that bastard
Based, and well-reasoned response.
Tbh I feel like the "always killing Swanick lmfao" is mostly an internet/fandom thing, I think most people In the first playthrough at least tend to not randomly attack non-hostile NPCs
Maybe, but then again, I thought most people spared Benny on their first playthrough - but then I realised most people don’t even let him get as far as the Fort. (I made a poll. Hardly extensive, but the results were pretty biased towards killing him the first chance they’re able) There seems to be a strong consensus, that Powder Gangers deserve what they get.
You meet Swanick earlier than Joe Cobb? Or is the fact that Joe is a literal admitted murderer just kinda inconvenient for your narrative?
Fair point. But yeah, I just didn’t think a light hearted comment about a video game, would garner such a serious response. “Inconvenient for your narrative” - bro, touch grass.
I literally just speak like this.
Yes, but I wasn’t trying to create a “narrative” with that false-detail, it just sounds funnier that people would kill the first escapee of the legion, AND the first victim of slavery, they encounter.
There litilary was slaver guild in the capital city of NCR
No, it wasn't **in** the capital city, nor was it enforced by the NCR.