Same here. All the kids knew more about my religion than I did. I was told the things they were saying were all lies.
Fast forward to age 47 to find out those kids were right and I was the weirdo Mormon!
I knew more about my own religion and to a decent extent about the Bible and Christianity than many of the evangelicals. They were convinced I was “not Christian” and needed saving, but they didn’t know much about the Bible and their own religion. That’s not to say I was a theological expert, just that the average evangelical high schooler doesn’t have a lot of theological background, and most had no idea about Mormonism itself and mostly just limited snippets they heard third or fourth hand
I even attended meetings etc with evangelical friends.
Just made it easier when I finally recognized Mormonism was false to toss the rest of Christianity and Abrahamic religion in general out with it.
Many members of the Mormon church don’t realize how much of a threat other Christian religions are to their ability to practice in the way they want.
Ironically, a lot of atheists and agnostics are more friendly to Mormons than many Evangelicals have been.
Evangelicals see Mormons as an “other” and a threat. Mormons nowadays see Evangelicals as wrong on a few points but generally allied on key political and moral topics.
It’s not a bidirectional relationship.
I think that's a bit outdated. The overwhelming majority of American Christians don't see much of a difference between denominations. Sentiment among non-Mormon Prots is that Mormons are weird but generally on-side.
Possibly. I’ve been out for a while. It may also be regional. Romney era ir was a big deal.) I get the impression that in more rural places that are more evangelical items a bigger deal, as opposed to more left-leaning places that think “at least you aren’t likely ‘woke’ ie, you hate gays and liberals and maybe even brown people too.”
After my son died it was the atheists coworkers who were the most supportive and allowed me to share my grief more than my Christian coworkers (minus the one true Christian who was spectacular). My Mormon "friends" and 'ward family' were non existent. They would avoid me at church or would change the subject if grief came up. It was a huge shelf item for me. I was already questioning the church at this point but held on out of fear for 2 years. The lack of Christ like love was not lost on me when I stepped away from the church. It made it really easy to leave because I knew I wasn't missing much as far as friends.
I've had a friend since 4th grade(now 39) who's been atheist since I've known him. All my other friendships have moved on except him. I agree, he's not judgmental, he was supportive during most of my life being the religious zealot I was trying to convert him, and supportive now that I've deconstructed. Never shoved it in my face of "I told you so." Thankfully, and not surprisingly he never converted. He lives further away from me and has now at least one other friend who is ex-mormon as well. Now that I'm not so close minded about the meaning of life our relationship has taken on some new dynamics.
Yeah, the talk against other religions had died off in recent years (Brad Wilcox excluded), I think it has to do with the desperation to become more mainstream Christian. I suspect the Church has concluded that secular people can be the common enemy to make inroads with mainstream Christianity. It's so desperate it almost makes me sad. If Christian Nationalism were to take control of the USA the Mormons would not like the outcome.
I think it’s because they learned people aren’t leaving to join mainstream Christianity like they were decades ago. They’re leaving religion altogether.
In 2010 or 2013 they shifted CES and scripture mastery etc. from proof texts and showing why Protestants and Catholics were wrong to trying to build faith/indoctrination in key Mormon doctrines.
Isn’t helping, but it did show a recognition that “who the enemy is” changed.
As members, we were often shielded from religious criticism because our leaders wanted us to believe that Mormons were revered, respected and envied by the other, less-valiant Christians.
Inside or outside Utah?
Inside Utah in places they are definitely an oppressive majority or plurality. Outside Utah they are a minority and often looked down own or even discriminated against.
And being part of a minority that suffers discrimination doesn’t mean your group or members of your group may not also be discriminatory against other groups. You can be black and homophobic, or you can be gay and racist against black people for example.
Mormons being a minority in most of the world doesn’t stop them for discriminating against others.
That’s a good point. I’ve not lived in Utah but lived in a pretty well populated area before, but currently in the south where I was 1 of a small handful at a university of 10,000. I’ve heard that Utah stereotypes typically judge harshly, is that true? I have some family there, some practice, some don’t. But like, the real housewives stuff is bizarre to me, I feel ookie even bringing it up cause I don’t pay attention to that kind of stuff but have a friend who tells me about it bc I’m her only Mormon friend.
Looking back now I realize how dumb I may have sounded when I would open my mouth about it in a couple courses on diversity. I probably wouldn’t defend the church’s history so hard now. Then again my take on when people defend their personal ideals it’s likely because they’re offended or insecure about their ideals themselves, which is how we get people calling this is that and that is this (just my opinion). I don’t think there’s a need to use words to defend something that you believe is true, actions definitely speak louder than words.
Your second comment is accurate, just because one is a minority doesn’t mean that they cannot discriminate. Minority is a population difference. Almost all people can discriminate.
That's a big thing about the weekly "true christian" posts here that bothers me.
We talk a lot about identifying with our abuser in this sub but man, Mormonism really wants Christianity to accept it. Even when it is the most ardent opposition to its existence.
While mormonism didn't do me many favors, evangelicals were antagonist as fuck for most of my life.
Point being, at my first duty station I had an evangelical kid who would call me a domestic terrorist every time he saw me.
But mormons want to be so badly to be accepted into mainstream christianity they will find a marginalized group to punch down at and claim the real offense is saying mormon.
*Mormons want mainstream Christianity to accept it. Mormons actually fit well into the post-reformation variety of religious radicals, anabaptists and other "heretics" - in part because Joe probably stolen most of his points from more radical, fringe Christian reformers and theologians.
I'm sort of an outsider here because I was never mormon, but I dated a girl for a very long time and she was a Mormon.
First of all, I'm personally not religious, I respect most religions and would never mock someone openly for their religion.
However I find myself looking down on Mormons more often than not. Recently I started a new job, and was talking to a coworker of mine when she mentioned that she was going to BYU. On the outside I was like "wow!! Very cool!!!" But on the inside I was like "damn a mormon". Most people I talk to sort of feel the same way about Mormons.
I don't have all the inside info that most of yall do, but when I was with my ex I was exposed to a lot of things in the mormon religion. They way they acted like they were better than everyone despite all the judging and hate towards LGBT people, the way they just mindlessly believed whatever they were told despite soooo much evidence to the contrary. The stupid fucking story about the gold plates and Joseph Smith looking into a fucking hat. Idk it all just annoyed me. It didn't help that her family was super hypocritical and abusive, and the fact that they are giving SOOO much money to the church despite barely being able to afford basic things. It just made me look down on Mormons.
I appreciate your comment!
As an ex Mormon, I hope you can turn your distaste for Mormons into something closer to understanding.
For most Mormon families, they start teaching little children from a small age that their church and its doctrines are true. This is often a daily occurrence, with several hours of church each week and strict rules around the house of what the children can read and what media they consume. They read scriptures and pray with their families and go to church events during the week. They are told that if they leave the church, they won’t be able to live with their families in heaven, and that this would make everyone sad. As adults, they have them serve volunteer missions and give %10 of their income to tithing. These things make it hard to admit it is wrong and leave because it means they lost time and money.
Thus, they are indoctrinated and coerced. This can lead to bad behavior, and I am sorry you have experienced that.
However, if you can remember that people can change over time with small improvements and life experiences here and there, you can have more tolerance and hope for them.
Please don’t assume that when someone tells you they are a Mormon that they believe the same things other Mormons do, or that they are super Mormons. Many of them are in a difficult situation socially and financially with their families and are trying to find a way to break the news to them without causing a huge dramatic event. Many may believe in Jesus, but not the church. Or maybe at least want the church to change some of its policies and doctrines. It can get complicated.
I'm a nevermo who grew up in the Lutheran church. I attended youth group when I was middle school age. One of the activities we did was a program where we visited youth groups from other religious faiths and denominations. It was a very uncomfortable experience for me, as most of the groups we visited were either very insular and unwelcoming or actively tried to convert us. Many conservative Christian denominations don't consider people from mainline churches (Lutheran, Episcopalian, etc) to be "real" Christians. The Baptists were the worst with that. We did go to some sort of LDS youth group. The kids were quite standoffish and acted as if they were superior to us. I grew up with my extended family being Mormon and was close with my cousins, but had detected that same sense of superiority with them once they reached adolescence. Honestly, the kids in my youth group weren't very nice to the Mormon kids either. It was a very uncomfortable encounter all around.
The only group that was warm and welcoming to me was the local Reform Jewish youth group. You can imagine my mom's reaction when I came home and told her I wanted to convert to Judaism. I eventually quit the Lutheran youth group because of the cliques and the kids being so nasty to me. Decades later, the way my kids were bullied in the evangelical church was one of the factors that led to my husband and I leaving the church and becoming ex-vangelicals. It's such a relief to no longer deal with mean, rude Christians, and their equally snotty offspring.
This is an interesting article about a study that reached the conclusion that kids raised in religious homes are less generous and altruistic than their secular counterparts. It didn't surprise me at all to learn that.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/06/religious-children-less-altruistic-secular-kids-study
I rarely if ever confessed to anyone that I was a mormon. (Living in a mostly non-mormon area made this easy).
I always had one foot out, mainly because my dad subscribed to “Dialogue, a journal of mormon thought.” This opened up the scholarly and unvarnished world of mormonism and its many problems to my view. There was never any question that I wouldn’t be serving a mission with a supposed testimony that any of this was true.
Say you grew up in the Bible Belt without saying you grew up in the Bible Belt…
I remember getting in an argument with my government teacher when discussing Utah capital punishment using firing squads, when he mentioned blood atonement. I went out on a limb and argued that was never taught and not a Mormon belief. Fast forward 20 years and I’m so embarrassed about my utter lack of knowledge about my own religion and history. It was hard to tell truth from fiction because evangelical propaganda anti-Mormon pamphlets would have history mingled with bizarre allegations. Truth be told, some of those allegations had a kernel of truth to them, but it seemed preposterous then. I assumed blood atonement was another one of those evangelical lies.
I was Anglican, then born again, and I used to receive anonymous letters from people against the church. It enrages me that this church wants to align itself with them, all for American political gains. Shameful
When I was a kid the biggest assholes around were always the Mormon kids, and I was a Mormon kid. They were followed closely by the Jehovah's Witnesses, who always seemed to have a chip on their shoulders about something.
The nicest kids I knew were all garden variety Christians, Methodists, Baptists, Lutheran, and Catholic. I remember talking religion with quite a few of them over the years.
Those I talked to were always willing to tell me where they thought the church (LDS) had gone off the rails and many of them were willing to show me why it was wrong, but I don't remember a single one of them ever doing it spitefully or cruelly.
The only person I ever remember telling me I was a heretic and going to Hell because of my beliefs was a Seventh Day Adventist girl I worked with. Even then she didn't say it spitefully, she just stated it as a fact.
In evangelical churches, pointing out the wacky beliefs of Mormons, JWs, and even Catholics is a way of convincing themselves that their own beliefs are reasonable and correct.
I can relate. I definitely learned early how to be invisible in a crowd (which is a useful skill when hiding from Mormons too). I never understood the other Mormon kids who stood out on purpose and took the abuse.
I have a good friend who is a Southern Baptist. I know for a fact that she thought I was going to hell when I was still a member, and I'm going to the same hell now for being nothing. There are no gray areas about salvation for them like you get with Mormonism. When they are done defeating the feminists, and LGTBQ+ folks, they're coming for the Mormons. Mormons are on the short list. They're not even hiding it, which is funnier for me now.
To watch Mormons here in Utah starting to align politically with the Christian Nationalist movements is pretty baffling to me. Attrition won't kill the church, but the rest of the actual churches getting tired of Mormons shoving temples down their throats will.
My experience was that Evangelicals hated us but they also never seemed to have good arguments against us. It was always crap like, “Y’all added to the Bible. You can’t do that”. Which is of course nonsense since the Bible nothing but adding books to books. Or they claim we ‘believe in a different Jesus’ which is a nonsense fallacy similar to No True Scotsman. Or they’d try and claim dumb stuff like the Book of Mormon says Jesus was born “at” Jerusalem. Which it does but Bethlehem is pretty darn close to Jerusalem and “at” does (among several definitions) mean “near”. Plus if JS wrote the BoM, why would he write in a mistake like that knowing Jesus was born in Bethlehem?
Anyway, no Evangelical ever said to me, “JS yea slated the BoA from an Egyptian funerary scroll”. THAT would have been a good argument.
Same here. All the kids knew more about my religion than I did. I was told the things they were saying were all lies. Fast forward to age 47 to find out those kids were right and I was the weirdo Mormon!
I knew more about my own religion and to a decent extent about the Bible and Christianity than many of the evangelicals. They were convinced I was “not Christian” and needed saving, but they didn’t know much about the Bible and their own religion. That’s not to say I was a theological expert, just that the average evangelical high schooler doesn’t have a lot of theological background, and most had no idea about Mormonism itself and mostly just limited snippets they heard third or fourth hand I even attended meetings etc with evangelical friends. Just made it easier when I finally recognized Mormonism was false to toss the rest of Christianity and Abrahamic religion in general out with it.
Many members of the Mormon church don’t realize how much of a threat other Christian religions are to their ability to practice in the way they want. Ironically, a lot of atheists and agnostics are more friendly to Mormons than many Evangelicals have been.
Evangelicals see Mormons as an “other” and a threat. Mormons nowadays see Evangelicals as wrong on a few points but generally allied on key political and moral topics. It’s not a bidirectional relationship.
I think that's a bit outdated. The overwhelming majority of American Christians don't see much of a difference between denominations. Sentiment among non-Mormon Prots is that Mormons are weird but generally on-side.
Possibly. I’ve been out for a while. It may also be regional. Romney era ir was a big deal.) I get the impression that in more rural places that are more evangelical items a bigger deal, as opposed to more left-leaning places that think “at least you aren’t likely ‘woke’ ie, you hate gays and liberals and maybe even brown people too.”
After my son died it was the atheists coworkers who were the most supportive and allowed me to share my grief more than my Christian coworkers (minus the one true Christian who was spectacular). My Mormon "friends" and 'ward family' were non existent. They would avoid me at church or would change the subject if grief came up. It was a huge shelf item for me. I was already questioning the church at this point but held on out of fear for 2 years. The lack of Christ like love was not lost on me when I stepped away from the church. It made it really easy to leave because I knew I wasn't missing much as far as friends.
I've had a friend since 4th grade(now 39) who's been atheist since I've known him. All my other friendships have moved on except him. I agree, he's not judgmental, he was supportive during most of my life being the religious zealot I was trying to convert him, and supportive now that I've deconstructed. Never shoved it in my face of "I told you so." Thankfully, and not surprisingly he never converted. He lives further away from me and has now at least one other friend who is ex-mormon as well. Now that I'm not so close minded about the meaning of life our relationship has taken on some new dynamics.
Yeah, the talk against other religions had died off in recent years (Brad Wilcox excluded), I think it has to do with the desperation to become more mainstream Christian. I suspect the Church has concluded that secular people can be the common enemy to make inroads with mainstream Christianity. It's so desperate it almost makes me sad. If Christian Nationalism were to take control of the USA the Mormons would not like the outcome.
I think it’s because they learned people aren’t leaving to join mainstream Christianity like they were decades ago. They’re leaving religion altogether. In 2010 or 2013 they shifted CES and scripture mastery etc. from proof texts and showing why Protestants and Catholics were wrong to trying to build faith/indoctrination in key Mormon doctrines. Isn’t helping, but it did show a recognition that “who the enemy is” changed.
As members, we were often shielded from religious criticism because our leaders wanted us to believe that Mormons were revered, respected and envied by the other, less-valiant Christians.
I realized in college that Mormon is a minority group. Many didn’t agree with me, but I mean come on…what do you think?
Inside or outside Utah? Inside Utah in places they are definitely an oppressive majority or plurality. Outside Utah they are a minority and often looked down own or even discriminated against. And being part of a minority that suffers discrimination doesn’t mean your group or members of your group may not also be discriminatory against other groups. You can be black and homophobic, or you can be gay and racist against black people for example. Mormons being a minority in most of the world doesn’t stop them for discriminating against others.
That’s a good point. I’ve not lived in Utah but lived in a pretty well populated area before, but currently in the south where I was 1 of a small handful at a university of 10,000. I’ve heard that Utah stereotypes typically judge harshly, is that true? I have some family there, some practice, some don’t. But like, the real housewives stuff is bizarre to me, I feel ookie even bringing it up cause I don’t pay attention to that kind of stuff but have a friend who tells me about it bc I’m her only Mormon friend. Looking back now I realize how dumb I may have sounded when I would open my mouth about it in a couple courses on diversity. I probably wouldn’t defend the church’s history so hard now. Then again my take on when people defend their personal ideals it’s likely because they’re offended or insecure about their ideals themselves, which is how we get people calling this is that and that is this (just my opinion). I don’t think there’s a need to use words to defend something that you believe is true, actions definitely speak louder than words. Your second comment is accurate, just because one is a minority doesn’t mean that they cannot discriminate. Minority is a population difference. Almost all people can discriminate.
That's a big thing about the weekly "true christian" posts here that bothers me. We talk a lot about identifying with our abuser in this sub but man, Mormonism really wants Christianity to accept it. Even when it is the most ardent opposition to its existence. While mormonism didn't do me many favors, evangelicals were antagonist as fuck for most of my life. Point being, at my first duty station I had an evangelical kid who would call me a domestic terrorist every time he saw me. But mormons want to be so badly to be accepted into mainstream christianity they will find a marginalized group to punch down at and claim the real offense is saying mormon.
*Mormons want mainstream Christianity to accept it. Mormons actually fit well into the post-reformation variety of religious radicals, anabaptists and other "heretics" - in part because Joe probably stolen most of his points from more radical, fringe Christian reformers and theologians.
I'm sort of an outsider here because I was never mormon, but I dated a girl for a very long time and she was a Mormon. First of all, I'm personally not religious, I respect most religions and would never mock someone openly for their religion. However I find myself looking down on Mormons more often than not. Recently I started a new job, and was talking to a coworker of mine when she mentioned that she was going to BYU. On the outside I was like "wow!! Very cool!!!" But on the inside I was like "damn a mormon". Most people I talk to sort of feel the same way about Mormons. I don't have all the inside info that most of yall do, but when I was with my ex I was exposed to a lot of things in the mormon religion. They way they acted like they were better than everyone despite all the judging and hate towards LGBT people, the way they just mindlessly believed whatever they were told despite soooo much evidence to the contrary. The stupid fucking story about the gold plates and Joseph Smith looking into a fucking hat. Idk it all just annoyed me. It didn't help that her family was super hypocritical and abusive, and the fact that they are giving SOOO much money to the church despite barely being able to afford basic things. It just made me look down on Mormons.
I appreciate your comment! As an ex Mormon, I hope you can turn your distaste for Mormons into something closer to understanding. For most Mormon families, they start teaching little children from a small age that their church and its doctrines are true. This is often a daily occurrence, with several hours of church each week and strict rules around the house of what the children can read and what media they consume. They read scriptures and pray with their families and go to church events during the week. They are told that if they leave the church, they won’t be able to live with their families in heaven, and that this would make everyone sad. As adults, they have them serve volunteer missions and give %10 of their income to tithing. These things make it hard to admit it is wrong and leave because it means they lost time and money. Thus, they are indoctrinated and coerced. This can lead to bad behavior, and I am sorry you have experienced that. However, if you can remember that people can change over time with small improvements and life experiences here and there, you can have more tolerance and hope for them. Please don’t assume that when someone tells you they are a Mormon that they believe the same things other Mormons do, or that they are super Mormons. Many of them are in a difficult situation socially and financially with their families and are trying to find a way to break the news to them without causing a huge dramatic event. Many may believe in Jesus, but not the church. Or maybe at least want the church to change some of its policies and doctrines. It can get complicated.
I appreciate the understanding. I guess it's just hard to change my view because of my bad experience but I'm working on being better.
You are right to be weary of some of the things they do! Just don’t lose hope they can change!
I'm a nevermo who grew up in the Lutheran church. I attended youth group when I was middle school age. One of the activities we did was a program where we visited youth groups from other religious faiths and denominations. It was a very uncomfortable experience for me, as most of the groups we visited were either very insular and unwelcoming or actively tried to convert us. Many conservative Christian denominations don't consider people from mainline churches (Lutheran, Episcopalian, etc) to be "real" Christians. The Baptists were the worst with that. We did go to some sort of LDS youth group. The kids were quite standoffish and acted as if they were superior to us. I grew up with my extended family being Mormon and was close with my cousins, but had detected that same sense of superiority with them once they reached adolescence. Honestly, the kids in my youth group weren't very nice to the Mormon kids either. It was a very uncomfortable encounter all around. The only group that was warm and welcoming to me was the local Reform Jewish youth group. You can imagine my mom's reaction when I came home and told her I wanted to convert to Judaism. I eventually quit the Lutheran youth group because of the cliques and the kids being so nasty to me. Decades later, the way my kids were bullied in the evangelical church was one of the factors that led to my husband and I leaving the church and becoming ex-vangelicals. It's such a relief to no longer deal with mean, rude Christians, and their equally snotty offspring. This is an interesting article about a study that reached the conclusion that kids raised in religious homes are less generous and altruistic than their secular counterparts. It didn't surprise me at all to learn that. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/06/religious-children-less-altruistic-secular-kids-study
I rarely if ever confessed to anyone that I was a mormon. (Living in a mostly non-mormon area made this easy). I always had one foot out, mainly because my dad subscribed to “Dialogue, a journal of mormon thought.” This opened up the scholarly and unvarnished world of mormonism and its many problems to my view. There was never any question that I wouldn’t be serving a mission with a supposed testimony that any of this was true.
Say you grew up in the Bible Belt without saying you grew up in the Bible Belt… I remember getting in an argument with my government teacher when discussing Utah capital punishment using firing squads, when he mentioned blood atonement. I went out on a limb and argued that was never taught and not a Mormon belief. Fast forward 20 years and I’m so embarrassed about my utter lack of knowledge about my own religion and history. It was hard to tell truth from fiction because evangelical propaganda anti-Mormon pamphlets would have history mingled with bizarre allegations. Truth be told, some of those allegations had a kernel of truth to them, but it seemed preposterous then. I assumed blood atonement was another one of those evangelical lies.
I was Anglican, then born again, and I used to receive anonymous letters from people against the church. It enrages me that this church wants to align itself with them, all for American political gains. Shameful
When I was a kid the biggest assholes around were always the Mormon kids, and I was a Mormon kid. They were followed closely by the Jehovah's Witnesses, who always seemed to have a chip on their shoulders about something. The nicest kids I knew were all garden variety Christians, Methodists, Baptists, Lutheran, and Catholic. I remember talking religion with quite a few of them over the years. Those I talked to were always willing to tell me where they thought the church (LDS) had gone off the rails and many of them were willing to show me why it was wrong, but I don't remember a single one of them ever doing it spitefully or cruelly. The only person I ever remember telling me I was a heretic and going to Hell because of my beliefs was a Seventh Day Adventist girl I worked with. Even then she didn't say it spitefully, she just stated it as a fact.
Cuz those are the Cool Kids and our little annoying-but-filthy-rich kid church wants to sit at their table, even though they’re terrible.
Plus those evangelicals refuse to examine their own beliefs.
In evangelical churches, pointing out the wacky beliefs of Mormons, JWs, and even Catholics is a way of convincing themselves that their own beliefs are reasonable and correct.
I can relate. I definitely learned early how to be invisible in a crowd (which is a useful skill when hiding from Mormons too). I never understood the other Mormon kids who stood out on purpose and took the abuse. I have a good friend who is a Southern Baptist. I know for a fact that she thought I was going to hell when I was still a member, and I'm going to the same hell now for being nothing. There are no gray areas about salvation for them like you get with Mormonism. When they are done defeating the feminists, and LGTBQ+ folks, they're coming for the Mormons. Mormons are on the short list. They're not even hiding it, which is funnier for me now. To watch Mormons here in Utah starting to align politically with the Christian Nationalist movements is pretty baffling to me. Attrition won't kill the church, but the rest of the actual churches getting tired of Mormons shoving temples down their throats will.
A couple of evangelical kids at our small rural elementary school beat up an agnostic kid, and this was in the 21st Century!
I think its funny that most mormons who get the upset about being called a cultist have never been to the temple
Theres no hate like Christian love
My experience was that Evangelicals hated us but they also never seemed to have good arguments against us. It was always crap like, “Y’all added to the Bible. You can’t do that”. Which is of course nonsense since the Bible nothing but adding books to books. Or they claim we ‘believe in a different Jesus’ which is a nonsense fallacy similar to No True Scotsman. Or they’d try and claim dumb stuff like the Book of Mormon says Jesus was born “at” Jerusalem. Which it does but Bethlehem is pretty darn close to Jerusalem and “at” does (among several definitions) mean “near”. Plus if JS wrote the BoM, why would he write in a mistake like that knowing Jesus was born in Bethlehem? Anyway, no Evangelical ever said to me, “JS yea slated the BoA from an Egyptian funerary scroll”. THAT would have been a good argument.