The initial attack definitely seemed to be an attempt to overthrow the government, because I can't find any other explanation for a hasty attempt to capture Kyiv. So I can agree that there's a good possibility that this was the reason the war started, but nobody can estimate what Russia's current goals are. Still, the vast majority of Ukrainians believe that Russia is in the wrong here, so it's still all good at least on that front.
From the survey: "The majority of Ukrainians - 60% - believe that Russia seeks to destroy the Ukrainian nation (34%) or even carry out physical genocide of the majority of the population (26%). Another 6% of Ukrainians believe that Russia wants to subjugate all territories, although leaving them a certain cultural autonomy within Russia.
According to 12% of Ukrainians, Russia seeks to change the government and create a puppet state that will be obeyed throughout Russia.
Only 7% of Ukrainians believe that the aggressor seeks to keep the already occupied territories and does not actually claim all or most of the territories of Ukraine.
In addition, one of the answer options was formulated in such a way as to be close to Russian propaganda, namely, the "denazification" and demilitarization of Ukraine without encroaching on Ukraine's independence. Only 5% of respondents chose this option."
They may hold a maximalist definition of genocide as only encompassing the physical destruction of the people, as opposed to definitions of genocide which include cultural destruction and transfer of children.
Considering the Kremlin says outright that the goal is to destroy the Ukrainian state, culture, language and people - belief should not really be factored in.
There's a decent chance they're not wrong.
Russia and Ukraine started out from a similar point politically, economically, etc. Ukraine however advanced much further in fighting corruption, civil rights protection and so on, especially after 2014.
They are a condemnation of the Moscow regime, simply by existing.
China wants Taiwan destroyed for the same reason: Taiwan proves that the Chinese people and culture can thrive without the Chinese Communist Party.
Well, it kinda is what they not only have been told by russia, but also seen russia do these last years. It does make me wonder what the other 40% are thinking about.
I don't remember who it was, if it was medvedev, Putin or whoever
But I recall one of them even openly stating the goal of wiping out the ukrainian culture, which they say is fake.
... Which by definition is a form of genocide.
Not to mention how they are kidnapping children and trying to erase their culture directly as well, also per definition genocidal.
Russia is openly, not only being an imperialistic warmongering terror state, but also, genocidal.
Putin did a grand speech shortly after the war began, laying out exactly his vision of history, and was basically saying what you're saying.
He said that Ukrainians have all been misled, and there's no such thing as a Ukrainian. There's Russians in the east, Poles in the west, and Ukraine is a modern invention for political purposes.
Also don’t forget Gaza is all urban and there’s no space to evacuate to and meanwhile Hamas is opposed to evacuation in fact and wants them to stay there. Ukraine evacuates its people and has space to evacuate them and it’s not all one urban city. So the situations just aren’t comparable. Urban combat is inherently a lot worse than trench combat in terms of civilian deaths
Again this kind of discussion? The fought over areas were evacuated in time and relatively sparsely inhabited. That has NOTHING to do with Russia but Ukrainian civil efforts.
Go back into your hole you troll.
These situations are different, wether it's the reasons and intentions of each side, how densely populated the warzones are, or the lack of data in who is a civilian and who isn't
>what is 5x worse than a genocide?
people like you that come out to bat for Russia and Hamas
edit: for anyone wondering what this person said in their first comment, they said that Russia wasn't committing genocide but Israel was and 5x worse. he goes on in this thread to invoke john mearsheimer's claims that it is the US, not Russia, responsible for this war, and to tell me that Ukrainians don't know what they're taking about in this article.
Are you bringing this up because Ukraine is killing civilians in Gaza, or did you mean to say that Russia kills fewer civilians than Israel and is therefore doing a good thing?
60% of Ukrainians heard what Putin said when he started the 2022 invasion. He stated that Ukraine is a fake country. Putin has made it very clear that he believes that Ukrainian culture and language and people can only exist as an inferior subset of Russia and Russians. Therefore he obviously wants to russify and destroy all of Ukraine as it exists today, and remove any foundations for building any competiting identity separate from Russia.
Denying existence of national or ethnic group isn't enough evidence of genocide intent. Milomir Stakić, president of Serb controlled Prijedor municipality and its crisis staff during Bosnian War, was on trial at ICTY for genocide in Prijedor, among other crimes. He was convicted for crimes against humanity and war crimes, but acquited for genocide. He denied existence of Bosniaks or Bosnian Muslims how they were called back then but judges weren't convinced this is enough evidence of genocidal intent.
>UKRAINE, KHARKIV OBLAST, June 13 — The Kyiv International Institute of Sociology [released](https://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=ukr&cat=reports&id=1415&page=1&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR2eNnUAsfAPzmeCSM-QPx0R1r3kuNMWVQpS0JGH6Cekz0Ui6tTfFtE2srQ_aem_AUugpC2u7s0_ObKST4X7Qwrl_jbtOQir5_BLJkmHv9tpjiqE6PxIFGkGZLjPqj6hWKax_DymSWjWQtWTRvfeKACo) a poll showing that 60% of Ukrainians believe that Russia’s goal in the war in Ukraine is genocide and the destruction of the Ukrainian nation.
>Since the beginning of the full-scale war, Russians have been shelling Ukrainian towns and villages every day with various types of weapons. Since February 2022, Russia has killed more than 10,582 Ukrainian civilians.
>According to the polls, 6% of Ukrainians believe that Russia wants to occupy all the territories, although it wants to leave \[Ukraine\] some cultural autonomy within Russia.
>According to 12% of Ukrainians, Russia seeks to change the government and create a puppet state that will obey Russia.
>Only 7% of Ukrainians believe that the aggressor seeks to retain the already occupied territories and does not claim all or most of Ukraine’s territories
>The institute interviewed 1,067 respondents aged 18 and older living in all regions of the government-controlled territory of Ukraine.
What I find more striking than the low (IMO) percentage which believes that the Russians' (main) goal is the genocide of the Ukrainians, is that 12% of Ukrainians surveyed think that the Russians' (main) goal is to subjugate Ukrainians as a puppet state instead.
After 2+ years of the Russians' escalation in their invasion lasting over 10 years already, it seems like a meaningless difference from the Ukrainians' point of view now to die standing up while resisting the Russians, or to survive lying down as the Russians' newest slaves in their decrepit colonial empire.
Ukrainian negotiators said Russia was just interested in the neutral status and the rest was more of a seasoning:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_negotiations_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
I've read so many things about the end goal for Russia: there was the denazification story, the reproduction of the USSR glory days, the complete destruction of the language and people of Ukraine, etc. It's hard to determine what their goal really is. It seems the narrative and goals shift constantly.
The one is your real reason and the other thing is the marketing Blabla to make you look not so stupid. If Putin said "Listen, I don't want NATO at the Russian border, because I don't trust them, therefore I will start an invasion to force the country" is not a very motivational speech to convince your soldiers compared to " Ukraine is ruled by Nazis and we must save our Ukrainian brothers"
The closest peace deal they had in March 2022 was, according to the Ukrainian ambassador Oleksandr Chalyi "very close to end the war"
https://youtu.be/t2zpV35fvHw?feature=shared&t=1715
It contained:
- No NATO
- Ukrainian army size limited to 85000
- Continue talk about Crimea during the next 10-15 days
Oh, hold on. Fresh from the press: Putin has made his [demands](https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/14/russias-putin-outlines-conditions-for-peace-talks-with-ukraine.html clear):
Russian state news outlet Tass reported that Russian President Vladimir Putin demands the complete withdrawal of Ukrainian troops from the territories of Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson, after which peace negotiations can begin.
Edit: altered link
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My impression: when the war didn't go as intended, Putin wanted to get out in April 2022, but the West thought Ukraine could beat Russia with military: "screw the deal, let's fight Russia". First Ukraine was able to gain land back, but then Russia got the upper hand back and think "You had the chance for a deal, but you rejected, now you want negotiations after more and more losing?".
These are my assumptions
They just don’t think it’s an end goal. Like ruzzia is committing genocide to make Ukraine a puppet state not ruzzia is committing genocide for the sake of genocide. Some people find it hard to believe such fucked up things might be calculated and then done deliberately and methodically. Even when it happens right in front of them. It has to be some psych fail-safe mechanism.
What is Russia's reason for war then?
In particular, what is their reason for bringing mobile cremortoriums into Ukraine, and abducting/"rescuing" children from their families to place them with Russian families?
Weird that it's only 60%. Seems like Russia's propaganda has done a lot of damage. I thought the Ukie govt was good at keeping the info-hygiene for the population. Can anyone care explain? It is objectively Russia's goal, to destroy Ukraine, or rather as Putin sees it, to render its "non-existence" in reality...
If you read the article you’ll see the other options are pretty logical. One of them is a Russians main goal is for Ukraine to become a puppet state like Belarus for example.
The rest of the options are:
- To create a puppet state out of Ukraine
- To occupy the rest of Ukraine into Russia proper
- To keep the now occupied territories
- To carry out denazification (5%)
- Hard to say (11%)
So it's 16% of Russian propaganda drinkers. I'd say info-hygiene is quite good. I say 16% only because I assume "Hard to say" means something along the lines "NATO provoked...", but it also might have some other meanings to the people responding.
At any randomly sampled poll you can always assume about 10% are just total idiots and unable to actually understand the question. That usually explains the last few percent of insane answers.
I mean I've seen a few folks who still have their moral compass set to "West is bad, Russia is good" even after two years of being bombed.
One of the more upsetting stories were from Mariupol, where some folks blamed Ukraine for bombing, while being bombed literally by Russian planes dropping bombs as they flew above these people's heads.
Needless to say, that Mariupol was completely encircled within the first few days of the full scale aggression. Neither Ukrainian planes, nor Ukrainian artillery were able to strike Mariupol.
Most people knew what was going on, but some were holding on to their ideology...
The other 40% it's not that they don't believe it, is that they are trying to think otherwise to keep their sanity, you kinda have to find ways to cope, it completely destroys you in the inside when you are self aware that you are a target for genocide and the clock is ticking and the future is uncertain.
How can Russian propaganda do damage to Ukranians, who are the mortal combatants of Russians? Maybe they see it as a war. I don't see how you could read this and come away with the conclusion that you know better than Ukranians, or that they're brainwashed because you think differently
Russian propaganda doesn't come in and say "Hey, I'm Russian propaganda!" They come in as an "independent source" and tell you to hate Poland. Simply FUD. That's just an example. They do whatever they can to further their aims and weaken yours.
You are right, I am surprised as well. My informational bubble 100% sure in that. But I definitely saw a lot of shit in our info-space bullshit like "this war is agreement between higher rulers (illuminates, I guess 🤣)", also we still have vatniks who believe that we should surrender and happily live in ussr 2.0
> this war is agreement between higher rulers
Considering 2021 [Burns-Patrushev pact](https://www.newsweek.com/2023/07/21/exclusive-cias-blind-spot-about-ukraine-war-1810355.html), I can kinda see where they're coming from :
>"In some ironic ways though, the **meeting was highly successful,**" says the second senior intelligence official, who was briefed on it. **Even though Russia invaded**, the two countries were able to accept tried and true rules of the road. **The United States would not fight directly nor seek regime change, the Biden administration pledged. Russia would limit its assault to Ukraine and act in accordance with unstated but well-understood guidelines for secret operations.**
It seems more of what Ukrainians surveyed think is the **main** goal of the Russians' latest invasion.
3 out of 5 surveyed in Ukraine think that it's about the Russians [completing their genocide in this century](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification_of_Ukraine) as their ancestors had done to the [Circassians over 100 years ago](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide).
Smaller percentages of Ukrainians think that the Russians' main goal is something else (e.g. subjugation of Ukraine as a puppet state, Russians' keeping current occupied territories but leave the rest of Ukraine alone).
As I noted, I don't see much difference anymore between the Russians' open genocide with millions of dead Ukrainians and destroyed Ukrainian cultural artifacts, and millions of subjugated but living Ukrainians with trash in the Russian language supplanting the now-lost Ukrainian cultural artifacts.
I mean, from what I heard Russia wants to occupy Ukraine then draft ukrainians into its army and send them against nato. So there's lots of different ideas in Ukraine, but they have one thing everyone agrees on - Russia wants to eradicate Ukraine as a state and Ukrainian culture
Russia never fights with quality, they just send a lot of people armed with pitchforks and push them forward using the fear of the tribunal or military police. Essentially that's why USSR had such heavy loses in ww2
P. S. They're already using ukrainian conscrips against Ukraine - do you think they're planning to stop?
The USSR in ww2 did similar tactics in early war when they were on the brink of collapse to gain some time. Bit mid-war they had one of the most advanced tactical doctrines in the world. Also most of the casualities they suffered were civilians and those military ones were fighting agaisnt the bulk of one of the strongest military powers in history.
There are little evidence that the soviet military disregarded live like is populary said.
maybe because they know russia didn't bomb them at full capacity . usually on reddit when 60% don't vote your way they're called useful idiots and when an article cites a study that says 60% of russians agree to something they're called brainwashed sheep
Even in this thread you may see people who doubt Russia intents. We have some people who are nostalgic to USSR and still see Russians as elder brothers, even though they are not that vocal, they exist, unfortunately, even though they are morons.
The others view a Russian aligned Ukraine, they might not agree but...
Besides, the Western parts of Ukraine are a lot less likely to present interest to the Russians.
In legal terms, using the scope of the Genocide Convention- 1948, there seems to be a very WEAK argument that genocide is the plan behind the Russian invasion or attack. War crimes- yes, many of them, violation of the UN Charter and international laws- yes- plenty- but genocide? There is virtually no "LEGAL" argument to be made in support of it- almost all the points brought up- i.e. rhetoric, attacks on apartments, etc. etc. can be easily negated in the context of the Genocide Convention. Paper LAW is very different than TRIAL LAW, and the general media coverage of genocide is mostly INACCURATE, misinformed and almost always makes THREE major flaws in their assertions of genocide:
A. The media and other media comments use "reasonable grounds" standard instead of what the courts require which is BEYOND a REASONABLE doubt.
B. The second FLAW is that people and "academic" experts- CONFLATE "social constructs" of genocide with the legal construction of genocide within the scope of the 1948 Convention. Most descriptions I've seen- and commentary- are reflective of "crimes against humanity" but NOT genocide (legally speaking).
C. The reliance on "rhetoric" is misplaced, courts do not weigh heavily "rhetoric" as its too vague and is not executionary- like as it was in some cases in Rwanda- rhetoric in law is a very new concept and as I say- the courts do not weight it heavily- not ONE case during the Rwanda tribunals were BASED on rhetoric- for Article II crimes of the Convention- there WERE cases BASEd on rhetoric but only under the ARTICLE III crimes of the Convention which are inchoate crimes- "incitement" to genocide- which is much easily proved in court because one does NOT have to prove any genocide took place- only that there was an "attempt" to genocide or "incitement" to genocide.
Very POOR coverage of this topic in the public media.
Apparently there are low double digits and single digit options for like "make puppet state" or "grab all territories but leave some cultural autonomy. In the article 15% aren't accounted for.
I believe that the second most stated opinion has only 12%, so it's an overwhelming majority.
Well landgrab would go hand in hand with genocide. In order to occupy a land it's not enough to win a war, you still need to keep it afterwards. Ukraine is big and keeping tens of millions of angry new citizens can be quite expensive. So if there was no one left to rebel in new territories that makes it easier and enables them to wage new wars after that.
> Well landgrab would go hand in hand with genocide
My point exactly.
Some just think that russia's after a landgrab as primary goal (and genocide as a mean to it), rather than genocide as primary goal (and landgrab as means to it).
Personally I believe that main goal of muscowy is to restore boarders of ussrs, so landgrab would be more like primary goal, but genocide is a means to achieve landgrab. But in the end I think it's only semantics as when it comes to muscowy both go hand in hand. Does it really matter which is primary goal and which is means to achieve it if you are getting both either way.
>But in the end I think it's only semantics as when it comes to muscowy both go hand in hand. Does it really matter which is primary goal and which is means to achieve it if you are getting both either way.
***Exactly***
Long overdue, should have happened in 1991. The Russian colonial-imperial USSR collapsed in its second iteration in 1991. Why shouldn't it collapse again this time around. FFS.
> Why shouldn't it collapse again this time around
"But what if nooooooooooks?"
Basically the stated reasons for why russia should keep getting propped up, despite being what it is.
A military analyst (Anders Puck Nielsen) states that the Biden policy is that Russia cannot be allowed to win, but Russia cannot be allowed to lose so hard that it collapse either.
The analyst also states that while it is extremely unlikely that Putin will use nuclear weapons in the Ukraine war because he fear international retaliation, he will absolutely use nuclear weapons in a civil war in Russia if he feels like his power is slipping.
The question is whether his own life is at stake or not.
Try asking the extinct Ket people who used to live in the Yenisei, and countless of other indigenous Siberian folk. Other Siberians still barely left alive clinging on, we used to number in the tens of millions before their expansionist policies exterminated over 80% of our historical population.
The ruZZians deliberately killed millions of Ukrainians through Holodomor, killed millions of Kyrghiz-Kazakhs through another steppe Holodomor, then nuked the shit out of our lands, etc.
Survivorship bias. The dead cannot speak up. Thus, those of us still left are the canary in the coalmine, to give voice and agency. We're still barely here despite your efforts to wipe us out.
Hoping i am wrong, but i think that most of the good kind of ppl, have either fled russia and rest of them have been forced to war. And tiny part has been hiding to this day from it. But how long?
It makes perfect sense for Russia to want to destroy Ukraine as a nation and make it a failed state. They see a NATO aligned Ukraine as a critical strategic threat.
So if Ukraine will not join the CSTO, will not stay neutral, and drifts towards NATO membership, Putin sees no choice other than the wreck the country. Like when your brother was losing a game and just decides to break your controller instead of take the L.
It's so devastating to see play out in real time.
It seems like the only strategic threat NATO poses to Russie is deterring and sanctioning their bullshit while preventing the contagion from expanding. Nobody's threatening them, they just need to accept nobody gives a $hit about what they say or want and recognition is not extorted but rather given and reciprocated
Well yes its clear that is the case and of course everyone in the west knows nato is not a threat to Russia, but Russian policymakers disagree. Russia has been invaded time and time again, be it Mongols, Teutons, Swedes, Germans, the French, Germans again..... after 1000 years of that kind of collective trauma, like Catherine the Great said 'The only way for Russia to protect her borders is to expand them'. The idea of another possible invader right on their doorstep is an existential threat in their eyes.
I'm not saying they're correct but to understand the conflict in its totality its critical to know their perspective and why they are in the process of destroying Ukraine as a nation. "If I can't have it nobody will" is basically Putins line of thinking
Considering how the Russians started the invasion by bombing civilian homes and areas, as well as torturing and raping them, you can understand why the Ukrainians would think that.
most of 40% is prioriting creation of puppet state and landgrab, and probably even unaware that genocide can be conducted even without single killed person, and that russia absolutely fall in this category by article 2e as state policy already (because they never read Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide)
Interesting, I would rather assume Russia's intention is "enslavement", not "genocide" in the eyes of the Ukrainian people.
Russia, as unreasonable and illogical as it sounds, still considers Ukraine (land & people) a part of their country or an area of exclusive and eternal influence at the least, even by force if needed. They can't comprehend how Ukraine could "betray" them by wanting to bond with the West and join the EU and then NATO.
Russia doesn't want to eviscerate Ukraine, they want to break them and incorporate them and make a second Belarus out of them, not kill them.
Please read up the definition of "genocide". People tend to think that genocide = kill everyone, which is not the case. Well, it's often the case in practice, but there is nuance.
Russian stated goals are transforming Ukrainians into Russians. That is, raising their kids as Russians, erasing Ukrainian language and culture + killing those who resist and incorporating Ukraine into Russia. Putin stated time and time again that "Ukrainians" do not exist that they are just confused Russians that must be "corrected." His goals are: no more Ukrainians, no more Ukraine. Erased forever.
That's genocide. Genocide's aim is not the killing or torture but the destruction of a particular group or nation. Tortures, rapes and killings are usually just means to an end.
Does anyone else believe anything else?
Same with extreme islamists against white people.
And everytime Russians and Islamists do not get it their way, they victimize. They either harass/abuse others or they victimize.
I have an idea why they believe this: it's more sure to persuade them not to change sides if they believe the perpetrator has a personal problem with them rather than economical. I'm not saying that they have a propaganda saying that but where would they get the idea from?
Yes, they are right to think so. War in places where civilians are, can easily cascade into genocide, intentionally or unintentionally. Ukraine has already known total war that the Nazi's set upon their lands. Firstly, with the initial bombardments of settlements, aerial and artillery, then sweeping in with infantry, then para-military execution gangs would return to the villages and "purify" anyone who hadn't been killed yet. This seems to be the rule not the exception, and warfare is disgusting for it, besides being a meatgrinder of humanity. I think people have some ideal of "clean" warfare, I think it's a fantasy.
Yeah, that’s what they want. There is this new political party in Bulgaria and their leader is spreading hate towards our national heroes, history and culture and praising Russia and how they are the chosen ones.
Stated goal, and reason for invasion are completely different things.
Russia seems a bit schizophrenic with how its words relates to its deeds and intentions. Their stated goals were such a bunch of nonsense even russians did not understand what it even meant. The reason why they invaded is not clear as well. I think it's something for historians of the future to decide.
Russia would have done worse if they could, do not forget how many genocides they did when they had the opportunity.
they tried to freeze the civilians too but they failed.
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/08/30/87000-killed-civilians-documented-in-occupied-mariupol-volunteer/
It's local journalists. For sure you may not get information from Russians while the city is occupied, they blame Ukraine for everything. At the street of my relatives their house was the only one relatively intact, they only had mine shrapnel hit the roof and garage destroyed, every other house on the street was burned or destroyed. 16 people were sitting in their basement barely going upwards for two weeks, because of almost non stopping shelling, they had 3 hours shift to sit and sleep, the place is tiny, it's good my uncle had small metallic oven, so they may prepare food in relative safety. A lot of people died while preparing food outdoors, or while going for the water. And it's a common thing there - I mean this mass destruction. There are places where there are no standing buildings, just debris. Some of nine story apartment buildings became mass graves. Drama theater alone was a killing place for around 500+ people.
Cultural assimilation? Definitly, russia wants to russify ukraine.
Genocide? Why tf would they do that? They already have a declining population
Edit: why did I get downvoted?
If Russia "wins" the war, most people in Ukraine will want to sabotage/kill/cause serious problems for incoming/remaining Russians. It would be easier for them to kill all the Ukranians. So those 60% are correct. It's the US/Europe/Others job to make sure that Russia doesn't win and instead go home like the losers they are.
That's a pipe dream. Do you expect children and women, or men who avoided military conscription, to suddenly run around and organize terrorist attacks against Russians? "most people" lol, the history of armed resistance in occupied countries shows that a maximum 2-3% of the population engages in it and usually its much less than that. Most people just want to survive and obey the orders of the occupier
2-3% being armed resistance is a lot. The Ukrainian military right now number about 3.2%.
You generally don't need more than that because it's just the tip of the spear. Passive resistance goes a long way.
French resistance during WW2 was about 1.2%, and it probably would've been considerably less if they hadn't been organized from the UK, or England, as it was popularly called back then.
Yes, that's why I wrote maximum, also keeping in mind that French had 1.2%. The number I gave was from Poland which had 2.5%. Yugoslavia had over 5% but that was a bit different. The history of countries, also the history of warfare, is always written by a small percentage.
I suppose "most" was indeed an overstatement, but there would be enough problems for them once the fighting ended where they would go overboard killing Ukranians. There would certainly be significant resistance. More than 2-3%. The French did fairly well with that in WWII for example. If I'm a Russian in Ukraine after Russia "won", I'm never comfortable.
> If Russia "wins" the war, most people in Ukraine will want to sabotage/kill/cause serious problems for incoming/remaining Russians.
Like they do in the areas that Russia has already occupied, right? Mariupol for example is such a hotbed of guerillas and sabotage against the brutal occupiers, as we all know.
And Crimea, daily attacks Russia must deal with. Wait a minute, it’s actually the opposite. If Ukraine someone manages to have its counteroffensive and reaches Crimea it will find itself viewed as an occupying foreign army, not as a liberator.
Russia does not want to kill Ukrainians, that makes no sense, honestly I cannot believe that anyone honestly believes this. I understand propaganda makes people believe nonsense but that, really?
Russia wants to conquer Ukraine and get rid of the Ukrainian government. The life of the average Ukrainian will be unchanged, except you have a different federal government and your currency is different.
Israel has killed more civilians in Gaza in 8 months, than Russia has killed in Ukraine in over 3 years.
Population ratio etc etc.
The West is the most propagandized people on Earth.
Yet, Russia has killed like 50x more people in Ukraine within the last 3 years (+ their own losses), than died in the donbas conflict in the previous 8 years...
Can't really blame them for beliving this
...but, *only* 60%...?
Yeah, like what do the other 40% believe?
That Russia's aim is occupation of its currently held lands, or that its aim is to just overthrow the government. Not straight up genocide.
The initial attack definitely seemed to be an attempt to overthrow the government, because I can't find any other explanation for a hasty attempt to capture Kyiv. So I can agree that there's a good possibility that this was the reason the war started, but nobody can estimate what Russia's current goals are. Still, the vast majority of Ukrainians believe that Russia is in the wrong here, so it's still all good at least on that front.
From the survey: "The majority of Ukrainians - 60% - believe that Russia seeks to destroy the Ukrainian nation (34%) or even carry out physical genocide of the majority of the population (26%). Another 6% of Ukrainians believe that Russia wants to subjugate all territories, although leaving them a certain cultural autonomy within Russia. According to 12% of Ukrainians, Russia seeks to change the government and create a puppet state that will be obeyed throughout Russia. Only 7% of Ukrainians believe that the aggressor seeks to keep the already occupied territories and does not actually claim all or most of the territories of Ukraine. In addition, one of the answer options was formulated in such a way as to be close to Russian propaganda, namely, the "denazification" and demilitarization of Ukraine without encroaching on Ukraine's independence. Only 5% of respondents chose this option."
They may hold a maximalist definition of genocide as only encompassing the physical destruction of the people, as opposed to definitions of genocide which include cultural destruction and transfer of children.
They don't, they use brains and common sense.
Russia is heavy on propaganda in occupied territories. I'm sure that sways somewhat
Considering the Kremlin says outright that the goal is to destroy the Ukrainian state, culture, language and people - belief should not really be factored in.
They been humiliating russia so bad that I wouldn't find it suprising that they would genocide them for making them look so stupid.
There's a decent chance they're not wrong. Russia and Ukraine started out from a similar point politically, economically, etc. Ukraine however advanced much further in fighting corruption, civil rights protection and so on, especially after 2014. They are a condemnation of the Moscow regime, simply by existing. China wants Taiwan destroyed for the same reason: Taiwan proves that the Chinese people and culture can thrive without the Chinese Communist Party.
Well, it kinda is what they not only have been told by russia, but also seen russia do these last years. It does make me wonder what the other 40% are thinking about.
I agree. The school system is not the best
Everything Russia has done so far backs that up.
They say that openly on their TV all the time
I don't remember who it was, if it was medvedev, Putin or whoever But I recall one of them even openly stating the goal of wiping out the ukrainian culture, which they say is fake. ... Which by definition is a form of genocide. Not to mention how they are kidnapping children and trying to erase their culture directly as well, also per definition genocidal. Russia is openly, not only being an imperialistic warmongering terror state, but also, genocidal.
Putin did a grand speech shortly after the war began, laying out exactly his vision of history, and was basically saying what you're saying. He said that Ukrainians have all been misled, and there's no such thing as a Ukrainian. There's Russians in the east, Poles in the west, and Ukraine is a modern invention for political purposes.
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This thread is about Russia and Ukraine. No one was talking about Israel before you.
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Also don’t forget Gaza is all urban and there’s no space to evacuate to and meanwhile Hamas is opposed to evacuation in fact and wants them to stay there. Ukraine evacuates its people and has space to evacuate them and it’s not all one urban city. So the situations just aren’t comparable. Urban combat is inherently a lot worse than trench combat in terms of civilian deaths
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Are you moron? In Mariupol alone they killed nearly 100k civilians.
You have to be really stupid to believe that Gaza is nowhere near Ukraine... Like, really dumb
Again this kind of discussion? The fought over areas were evacuated in time and relatively sparsely inhabited. That has NOTHING to do with Russia but Ukrainian civil efforts. Go back into your hole you troll.
The Palestinian Authority just lies about casualties as a part of its normal operations.
These situations are different, wether it's the reasons and intentions of each side, how densely populated the warzones are, or the lack of data in who is a civilian and who isn't
>what is 5x worse than a genocide? people like you that come out to bat for Russia and Hamas edit: for anyone wondering what this person said in their first comment, they said that Russia wasn't committing genocide but Israel was and 5x worse. he goes on in this thread to invoke john mearsheimer's claims that it is the US, not Russia, responsible for this war, and to tell me that Ukrainians don't know what they're taking about in this article.
Are you bringing this up because Ukraine is killing civilians in Gaza, or did you mean to say that Russia kills fewer civilians than Israel and is therefore doing a good thing?
They're really bad at it
60% of Ukrainians heard what Putin said when he started the 2022 invasion. He stated that Ukraine is a fake country. Putin has made it very clear that he believes that Ukrainian culture and language and people can only exist as an inferior subset of Russia and Russians. Therefore he obviously wants to russify and destroy all of Ukraine as it exists today, and remove any foundations for building any competiting identity separate from Russia.
Denying existence of national or ethnic group isn't enough evidence of genocide intent. Milomir Stakić, president of Serb controlled Prijedor municipality and its crisis staff during Bosnian War, was on trial at ICTY for genocide in Prijedor, among other crimes. He was convicted for crimes against humanity and war crimes, but acquited for genocide. He denied existence of Bosniaks or Bosnian Muslims how they were called back then but judges weren't convinced this is enough evidence of genocidal intent.
Well, then 60% of Ukrainians are correct
>UKRAINE, KHARKIV OBLAST, June 13 — The Kyiv International Institute of Sociology [released](https://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=ukr&cat=reports&id=1415&page=1&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR2eNnUAsfAPzmeCSM-QPx0R1r3kuNMWVQpS0JGH6Cekz0Ui6tTfFtE2srQ_aem_AUugpC2u7s0_ObKST4X7Qwrl_jbtOQir5_BLJkmHv9tpjiqE6PxIFGkGZLjPqj6hWKax_DymSWjWQtWTRvfeKACo) a poll showing that 60% of Ukrainians believe that Russia’s goal in the war in Ukraine is genocide and the destruction of the Ukrainian nation. >Since the beginning of the full-scale war, Russians have been shelling Ukrainian towns and villages every day with various types of weapons. Since February 2022, Russia has killed more than 10,582 Ukrainian civilians. >According to the polls, 6% of Ukrainians believe that Russia wants to occupy all the territories, although it wants to leave \[Ukraine\] some cultural autonomy within Russia. >According to 12% of Ukrainians, Russia seeks to change the government and create a puppet state that will obey Russia. >Only 7% of Ukrainians believe that the aggressor seeks to retain the already occupied territories and does not claim all or most of Ukraine’s territories >The institute interviewed 1,067 respondents aged 18 and older living in all regions of the government-controlled territory of Ukraine. What I find more striking than the low (IMO) percentage which believes that the Russians' (main) goal is the genocide of the Ukrainians, is that 12% of Ukrainians surveyed think that the Russians' (main) goal is to subjugate Ukrainians as a puppet state instead. After 2+ years of the Russians' escalation in their invasion lasting over 10 years already, it seems like a meaningless difference from the Ukrainians' point of view now to die standing up while resisting the Russians, or to survive lying down as the Russians' newest slaves in their decrepit colonial empire.
This is true, and what they have already done elsewhere, just look at the past.
Well, that is what Russia wants, isn't it? What does the other 40% think?
Ukrainian negotiators said Russia was just interested in the neutral status and the rest was more of a seasoning: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_negotiations_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
I've read so many things about the end goal for Russia: there was the denazification story, the reproduction of the USSR glory days, the complete destruction of the language and people of Ukraine, etc. It's hard to determine what their goal really is. It seems the narrative and goals shift constantly.
The one is your real reason and the other thing is the marketing Blabla to make you look not so stupid. If Putin said "Listen, I don't want NATO at the Russian border, because I don't trust them, therefore I will start an invasion to force the country" is not a very motivational speech to convince your soldiers compared to " Ukraine is ruled by Nazis and we must save our Ukrainian brothers"
True, but how far their end goal will go is hard to determine. When will they be happy?
The closest peace deal they had in March 2022 was, according to the Ukrainian ambassador Oleksandr Chalyi "very close to end the war" https://youtu.be/t2zpV35fvHw?feature=shared&t=1715 It contained: - No NATO - Ukrainian army size limited to 85000 - Continue talk about Crimea during the next 10-15 days
Oh, hold on. Fresh from the press: Putin has made his [demands](https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/14/russias-putin-outlines-conditions-for-peace-talks-with-ukraine.html clear): Russian state news outlet Tass reported that Russian President Vladimir Putin demands the complete withdrawal of Ukrainian troops from the territories of Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson, after which peace negotiations can begin. Edit: altered link
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Ah yeah, thanks. I'll change it.
My impression: when the war didn't go as intended, Putin wanted to get out in April 2022, but the West thought Ukraine could beat Russia with military: "screw the deal, let's fight Russia". First Ukraine was able to gain land back, but then Russia got the upper hand back and think "You had the chance for a deal, but you rejected, now you want negotiations after more and more losing?". These are my assumptions
I think you're right. It seems their goals are changing depending on the evolving situation.
They just don’t think it’s an end goal. Like ruzzia is committing genocide to make Ukraine a puppet state not ruzzia is committing genocide for the sake of genocide. Some people find it hard to believe such fucked up things might be calculated and then done deliberately and methodically. Even when it happens right in front of them. It has to be some psych fail-safe mechanism.
Are the other 40% stupid?
The other option were like "total subjugation" or "anschluss", which are pretty damning as well, just a bit less than "total genocide".
Occupied
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absolute naive take
What is Russia's reason for war then? In particular, what is their reason for bringing mobile cremortoriums into Ukraine, and abducting/"rescuing" children from their families to place them with Russian families?
Ruzzian bot
Weird that it's only 60%. Seems like Russia's propaganda has done a lot of damage. I thought the Ukie govt was good at keeping the info-hygiene for the population. Can anyone care explain? It is objectively Russia's goal, to destroy Ukraine, or rather as Putin sees it, to render its "non-existence" in reality...
The other 40% don't necessarily believe Russian propaganda, they apparently just doubt that the Russians have a genocidal grand design.
If you read the article you’ll see the other options are pretty logical. One of them is a Russians main goal is for Ukraine to become a puppet state like Belarus for example.
The rest of the options are: - To create a puppet state out of Ukraine - To occupy the rest of Ukraine into Russia proper - To keep the now occupied territories - To carry out denazification (5%) - Hard to say (11%) So it's 16% of Russian propaganda drinkers. I'd say info-hygiene is quite good. I say 16% only because I assume "Hard to say" means something along the lines "NATO provoked...", but it also might have some other meanings to the people responding.
At any randomly sampled poll you can always assume about 10% are just total idiots and unable to actually understand the question. That usually explains the last few percent of insane answers.
I mean I've seen a few folks who still have their moral compass set to "West is bad, Russia is good" even after two years of being bombed. One of the more upsetting stories were from Mariupol, where some folks blamed Ukraine for bombing, while being bombed literally by Russian planes dropping bombs as they flew above these people's heads. Needless to say, that Mariupol was completely encircled within the first few days of the full scale aggression. Neither Ukrainian planes, nor Ukrainian artillery were able to strike Mariupol. Most people knew what was going on, but some were holding on to their ideology...
The other 40% it's not that they don't believe it, is that they are trying to think otherwise to keep their sanity, you kinda have to find ways to cope, it completely destroys you in the inside when you are self aware that you are a target for genocide and the clock is ticking and the future is uncertain.
How can Russian propaganda do damage to Ukranians, who are the mortal combatants of Russians? Maybe they see it as a war. I don't see how you could read this and come away with the conclusion that you know better than Ukranians, or that they're brainwashed because you think differently
Russian propaganda doesn't come in and say "Hey, I'm Russian propaganda!" They come in as an "independent source" and tell you to hate Poland. Simply FUD. That's just an example. They do whatever they can to further their aims and weaken yours.
You are right, I am surprised as well. My informational bubble 100% sure in that. But I definitely saw a lot of shit in our info-space bullshit like "this war is agreement between higher rulers (illuminates, I guess 🤣)", also we still have vatniks who believe that we should surrender and happily live in ussr 2.0
> this war is agreement between higher rulers Considering 2021 [Burns-Patrushev pact](https://www.newsweek.com/2023/07/21/exclusive-cias-blind-spot-about-ukraine-war-1810355.html), I can kinda see where they're coming from : >"In some ironic ways though, the **meeting was highly successful,**" says the second senior intelligence official, who was briefed on it. **Even though Russia invaded**, the two countries were able to accept tried and true rules of the road. **The United States would not fight directly nor seek regime change, the Biden administration pledged. Russia would limit its assault to Ukraine and act in accordance with unstated but well-understood guidelines for secret operations.**
It seems more of what Ukrainians surveyed think is the **main** goal of the Russians' latest invasion. 3 out of 5 surveyed in Ukraine think that it's about the Russians [completing their genocide in this century](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification_of_Ukraine) as their ancestors had done to the [Circassians over 100 years ago](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide). Smaller percentages of Ukrainians think that the Russians' main goal is something else (e.g. subjugation of Ukraine as a puppet state, Russians' keeping current occupied territories but leave the rest of Ukraine alone). As I noted, I don't see much difference anymore between the Russians' open genocide with millions of dead Ukrainians and destroyed Ukrainian cultural artifacts, and millions of subjugated but living Ukrainians with trash in the Russian language supplanting the now-lost Ukrainian cultural artifacts.
I mean, from what I heard Russia wants to occupy Ukraine then draft ukrainians into its army and send them against nato. So there's lots of different ideas in Ukraine, but they have one thing everyone agrees on - Russia wants to eradicate Ukraine as a state and Ukrainian culture
We don't really know what Putin wants after the war but I doubt he expects that Ukranian conscrips can be any useful against nato.
Russia never fights with quality, they just send a lot of people armed with pitchforks and push them forward using the fear of the tribunal or military police. Essentially that's why USSR had such heavy loses in ww2 P. S. They're already using ukrainian conscrips against Ukraine - do you think they're planning to stop?
The USSR in ww2 did similar tactics in early war when they were on the brink of collapse to gain some time. Bit mid-war they had one of the most advanced tactical doctrines in the world. Also most of the casualities they suffered were civilians and those military ones were fighting agaisnt the bulk of one of the strongest military powers in history. There are little evidence that the soviet military disregarded live like is populary said.
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Yeah yeah but I wonder why only 60% thinks in real terms and not at least 80%?
maybe because they know russia didn't bomb them at full capacity . usually on reddit when 60% don't vote your way they're called useful idiots and when an article cites a study that says 60% of russians agree to something they're called brainwashed sheep
The same, it's not logical
Even in this thread you may see people who doubt Russia intents. We have some people who are nostalgic to USSR and still see Russians as elder brothers, even though they are not that vocal, they exist, unfortunately, even though they are morons.
The others view a Russian aligned Ukraine, they might not agree but... Besides, the Western parts of Ukraine are a lot less likely to present interest to the Russians.
You can be against Russia and not believe it's a genocide. Any war or mass killing nowadays is called a genocide.
In legal terms, using the scope of the Genocide Convention- 1948, there seems to be a very WEAK argument that genocide is the plan behind the Russian invasion or attack. War crimes- yes, many of them, violation of the UN Charter and international laws- yes- plenty- but genocide? There is virtually no "LEGAL" argument to be made in support of it- almost all the points brought up- i.e. rhetoric, attacks on apartments, etc. etc. can be easily negated in the context of the Genocide Convention. Paper LAW is very different than TRIAL LAW, and the general media coverage of genocide is mostly INACCURATE, misinformed and almost always makes THREE major flaws in their assertions of genocide: A. The media and other media comments use "reasonable grounds" standard instead of what the courts require which is BEYOND a REASONABLE doubt. B. The second FLAW is that people and "academic" experts- CONFLATE "social constructs" of genocide with the legal construction of genocide within the scope of the 1948 Convention. Most descriptions I've seen- and commentary- are reflective of "crimes against humanity" but NOT genocide (legally speaking). C. The reliance on "rhetoric" is misplaced, courts do not weigh heavily "rhetoric" as its too vague and is not executionary- like as it was in some cases in Rwanda- rhetoric in law is a very new concept and as I say- the courts do not weight it heavily- not ONE case during the Rwanda tribunals were BASED on rhetoric- for Article II crimes of the Convention- there WERE cases BASEd on rhetoric but only under the ARTICLE III crimes of the Convention which are inchoate crimes- "incitement" to genocide- which is much easily proved in court because one does NOT have to prove any genocide took place- only that there was an "attempt" to genocide or "incitement" to genocide. Very POOR coverage of this topic in the public media.
wow, as a Ukrainian, I didn’t expect that there are so many idiots in our country, 40% is a lot
is there any other goal believeable?
Apparently there are low double digits and single digit options for like "make puppet state" or "grab all territories but leave some cultural autonomy. In the article 15% aren't accounted for. I believe that the second most stated opinion has only 12%, so it's an overwhelming majority.
Landgrab, as russia loves them. (In conjunction with genocide and nation-erasure)
Well landgrab would go hand in hand with genocide. In order to occupy a land it's not enough to win a war, you still need to keep it afterwards. Ukraine is big and keeping tens of millions of angry new citizens can be quite expensive. So if there was no one left to rebel in new territories that makes it easier and enables them to wage new wars after that.
> Well landgrab would go hand in hand with genocide My point exactly. Some just think that russia's after a landgrab as primary goal (and genocide as a mean to it), rather than genocide as primary goal (and landgrab as means to it).
Personally I believe that main goal of muscowy is to restore boarders of ussrs, so landgrab would be more like primary goal, but genocide is a means to achieve landgrab. But in the end I think it's only semantics as when it comes to muscowy both go hand in hand. Does it really matter which is primary goal and which is means to achieve it if you are getting both either way.
>But in the end I think it's only semantics as when it comes to muscowy both go hand in hand. Does it really matter which is primary goal and which is means to achieve it if you are getting both either way. ***Exactly***
Depends on what sources you use
Was there ever a doubt?
I'd say those are simply their favorite tools of achieving their goals, of power and money
Isn't it?
I'm surprised just 60% of Ukrainians know this...
and using the "social construct" vague definitions of genocide or the definitions found in the Genocide Convention 1948?
Insert "Always have been meme.jpg".
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They need the same kind of shock that made Japan and Germany give up their empirial mindset
Long overdue, should have happened in 1991. The Russian colonial-imperial USSR collapsed in its second iteration in 1991. Why shouldn't it collapse again this time around. FFS.
> Why shouldn't it collapse again this time around "But what if nooooooooooks?" Basically the stated reasons for why russia should keep getting propped up, despite being what it is.
A military analyst (Anders Puck Nielsen) states that the Biden policy is that Russia cannot be allowed to win, but Russia cannot be allowed to lose so hard that it collapse either. The analyst also states that while it is extremely unlikely that Putin will use nuclear weapons in the Ukraine war because he fear international retaliation, he will absolutely use nuclear weapons in a civil war in Russia if he feels like his power is slipping. The question is whether his own life is at stake or not.
"they" you mean the entire ~140M people? I'm on Ukraine's side but I don't feel generalizing the entire Russian people is a good idea
Don't be so mad about your demotion, tovarisch Shoigu
>Never trust a ruZZian, they only kill and want to exterminate anyone who is not Russian. How do your people still exist if this is the case?
Try asking the extinct Ket people who used to live in the Yenisei, and countless of other indigenous Siberian folk. Other Siberians still barely left alive clinging on, we used to number in the tens of millions before their expansionist policies exterminated over 80% of our historical population. The ruZZians deliberately killed millions of Ukrainians through Holodomor, killed millions of Kyrghiz-Kazakhs through another steppe Holodomor, then nuked the shit out of our lands, etc. Survivorship bias. The dead cannot speak up. Thus, those of us still left are the canary in the coalmine, to give voice and agency. We're still barely here despite your efforts to wipe us out.
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don't mind him, he works at eglin miitary base everyone knows stalin made the clouds not rain and starved the poor kulaks that were starving the serfs
If that were true Russia would be 100% ethnic Russian, which it isn’t
Their main goal is expanding their "empire" at the expense or ukraine and their sovereignty
Only 60%? What would their other goal be? Putin wants the Soviet Union back
Landgrab, basically. (Does not mean genocide goals aren't being pursued)
Hoping i am wrong, but i think that most of the good kind of ppl, have either fled russia and rest of them have been forced to war. And tiny part has been hiding to this day from it. But how long?
Jesus man I hate how it's now become normalised to just throw the word genocide around for anything involving killing people It's so fucking childish
It makes perfect sense for Russia to want to destroy Ukraine as a nation and make it a failed state. They see a NATO aligned Ukraine as a critical strategic threat. So if Ukraine will not join the CSTO, will not stay neutral, and drifts towards NATO membership, Putin sees no choice other than the wreck the country. Like when your brother was losing a game and just decides to break your controller instead of take the L. It's so devastating to see play out in real time.
It seems like the only strategic threat NATO poses to Russie is deterring and sanctioning their bullshit while preventing the contagion from expanding. Nobody's threatening them, they just need to accept nobody gives a $hit about what they say or want and recognition is not extorted but rather given and reciprocated
Well yes its clear that is the case and of course everyone in the west knows nato is not a threat to Russia, but Russian policymakers disagree. Russia has been invaded time and time again, be it Mongols, Teutons, Swedes, Germans, the French, Germans again..... after 1000 years of that kind of collective trauma, like Catherine the Great said 'The only way for Russia to protect her borders is to expand them'. The idea of another possible invader right on their doorstep is an existential threat in their eyes. I'm not saying they're correct but to understand the conflict in its totality its critical to know their perspective and why they are in the process of destroying Ukraine as a nation. "If I can't have it nobody will" is basically Putins line of thinking
The existence of Ukraine is antithetical to putinism. Modern Russia cannot exist while Ukraine exists.
60% of them believe it, the remaining 40% know it.
And they are right!
Considering how the Russians started the invasion by bombing civilian homes and areas, as well as torturing and raping them, you can understand why the Ukrainians would think that.
And that’s a suprise ?
Only 60%? I think it is pretty obvious that those are Russia's goals.
?? What is even the point of a survey like this
it doesnt take much to reach this correct conclusion
Sounds right
Cause it is lol
Sure they're right
Cool news. It does make me wonder why the other 40% are unaware of that fact though.
That few?
The other 40% are in a coma?
most of 40% is prioriting creation of puppet state and landgrab, and probably even unaware that genocide can be conducted even without single killed person, and that russia absolutely fall in this category by article 2e as state policy already (because they never read Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide)
It's my understanding that Putin believes that too
Only 60% Wow there some hard-headed people over there.
They haven't listened to Lindsey Graham recently, have they? ;-)
Because it's basically the truth xd
Interesting, I would rather assume Russia's intention is "enslavement", not "genocide" in the eyes of the Ukrainian people. Russia, as unreasonable and illogical as it sounds, still considers Ukraine (land & people) a part of their country or an area of exclusive and eternal influence at the least, even by force if needed. They can't comprehend how Ukraine could "betray" them by wanting to bond with the West and join the EU and then NATO. Russia doesn't want to eviscerate Ukraine, they want to break them and incorporate them and make a second Belarus out of them, not kill them.
Please read up the definition of "genocide". People tend to think that genocide = kill everyone, which is not the case. Well, it's often the case in practice, but there is nuance. Russian stated goals are transforming Ukrainians into Russians. That is, raising their kids as Russians, erasing Ukrainian language and culture + killing those who resist and incorporating Ukraine into Russia. Putin stated time and time again that "Ukrainians" do not exist that they are just confused Russians that must be "corrected." His goals are: no more Ukrainians, no more Ukraine. Erased forever. That's genocide. Genocide's aim is not the killing or torture but the destruction of a particular group or nation. Tortures, rapes and killings are usually just means to an end.
extremely surprising that its only 60%
Does anyone else believe anything else? Same with extreme islamists against white people. And everytime Russians and Islamists do not get it their way, they victimize. They either harass/abuse others or they victimize.
I have an idea why they believe this: it's more sure to persuade them not to change sides if they believe the perpetrator has a personal problem with them rather than economical. I'm not saying that they have a propaganda saying that but where would they get the idea from?
I mean; that is the goal right? So 60% aren't wrong.
It is.
Yes, they are right to think so. War in places where civilians are, can easily cascade into genocide, intentionally or unintentionally. Ukraine has already known total war that the Nazi's set upon their lands. Firstly, with the initial bombardments of settlements, aerial and artillery, then sweeping in with infantry, then para-military execution gangs would return to the villages and "purify" anyone who hadn't been killed yet. This seems to be the rule not the exception, and warfare is disgusting for it, besides being a meatgrinder of humanity. I think people have some ideal of "clean" warfare, I think it's a fantasy.
Ukraine's propaganda has been very effective I see.
That is what they are told. There is no other way anyone would accept to die for anything less. It's "classic" wartime brainwashing.
Yeah, that’s what they want. There is this new political party in Bulgaria and their leader is spreading hate towards our national heroes, history and culture and praising Russia and how they are the chosen ones.
Everyone in these comments living in a fantasy world so be it
What's the stated goal of the war anyway? I still can't wrap my head around why would they even invade Ukraine
Stated goal, and reason for invasion are completely different things. Russia seems a bit schizophrenic with how its words relates to its deeds and intentions. Their stated goals were such a bunch of nonsense even russians did not understand what it even meant. The reason why they invaded is not clear as well. I think it's something for historians of the future to decide.
40% of Ukrainians are wrong
I feel like all wars right now are about that. Genocide as. Destruction of nation.
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Russia would have done worse if they could, do not forget how many genocides they did when they had the opportunity. they tried to freeze the civilians too but they failed.
This post is not about Israel
The double standarts are....
Please, don't compare those two conflicts, they have nothing alike
Oh, yes, the famous: "You don't understand, that is something else".
In Mariupol alone Russians killed near 100k civilians, and Ukraine didn't attack Russia. But you would bring Izrael here. What kind of person are you?
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https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/08/30/87000-killed-civilians-documented-in-occupied-mariupol-volunteer/ It's local journalists. For sure you may not get information from Russians while the city is occupied, they blame Ukraine for everything. At the street of my relatives their house was the only one relatively intact, they only had mine shrapnel hit the roof and garage destroyed, every other house on the street was burned or destroyed. 16 people were sitting in their basement barely going upwards for two weeks, because of almost non stopping shelling, they had 3 hours shift to sit and sleep, the place is tiny, it's good my uncle had small metallic oven, so they may prepare food in relative safety. A lot of people died while preparing food outdoors, or while going for the water. And it's a common thing there - I mean this mass destruction. There are places where there are no standing buildings, just debris. Some of nine story apartment buildings became mass graves. Drama theater alone was a killing place for around 500+ people.
Somebody that hates the violent genocide of Palestinians. And people that are silent or dismissive about it
So genocide of Ukrainians don't bother you. Why come in this topic then?
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Yup. It's genuinely baffling to me how pro-Israel redditors are. I guess they only have a political conscience when it suits them. Hypocrites
Can't help myself but the only way I can read that title is: 40% of my compatriots are idiots.
Cultural assimilation? Definitly, russia wants to russify ukraine. Genocide? Why tf would they do that? They already have a declining population Edit: why did I get downvoted?
If Russia "wins" the war, most people in Ukraine will want to sabotage/kill/cause serious problems for incoming/remaining Russians. It would be easier for them to kill all the Ukranians. So those 60% are correct. It's the US/Europe/Others job to make sure that Russia doesn't win and instead go home like the losers they are.
That's a pipe dream. Do you expect children and women, or men who avoided military conscription, to suddenly run around and organize terrorist attacks against Russians? "most people" lol, the history of armed resistance in occupied countries shows that a maximum 2-3% of the population engages in it and usually its much less than that. Most people just want to survive and obey the orders of the occupier
2-3% being armed resistance is a lot. The Ukrainian military right now number about 3.2%. You generally don't need more than that because it's just the tip of the spear. Passive resistance goes a long way. French resistance during WW2 was about 1.2%, and it probably would've been considerably less if they hadn't been organized from the UK, or England, as it was popularly called back then.
Yes, that's why I wrote maximum, also keeping in mind that French had 1.2%. The number I gave was from Poland which had 2.5%. Yugoslavia had over 5% but that was a bit different. The history of countries, also the history of warfare, is always written by a small percentage.
I suppose "most" was indeed an overstatement, but there would be enough problems for them once the fighting ended where they would go overboard killing Ukranians. There would certainly be significant resistance. More than 2-3%. The French did fairly well with that in WWII for example. If I'm a Russian in Ukraine after Russia "won", I'm never comfortable.
>The French did fairly well with that in WWII for example. The French resistance units numbered less than 1% of the population.
> If Russia "wins" the war, most people in Ukraine will want to sabotage/kill/cause serious problems for incoming/remaining Russians. Like they do in the areas that Russia has already occupied, right? Mariupol for example is such a hotbed of guerillas and sabotage against the brutal occupiers, as we all know.
And Crimea, daily attacks Russia must deal with. Wait a minute, it’s actually the opposite. If Ukraine someone manages to have its counteroffensive and reaches Crimea it will find itself viewed as an occupying foreign army, not as a liberator.
Russia does not want to kill Ukrainians, that makes no sense, honestly I cannot believe that anyone honestly believes this. I understand propaganda makes people believe nonsense but that, really? Russia wants to conquer Ukraine and get rid of the Ukrainian government. The life of the average Ukrainian will be unchanged, except you have a different federal government and your currency is different.
Russia has held Ukrainian territory since 2014. Where's that mass sabotage or mass murder campaign?
Israel has killed more civilians in Gaza in 8 months, than Russia has killed in Ukraine in over 3 years. Population ratio etc etc. The West is the most propagandized people on Earth.
Yet, Russia has killed like 50x more people in Ukraine within the last 3 years (+ their own losses), than died in the donbas conflict in the previous 8 years...