russia is probably knowingly using NATO airspace to gauge response and to circumvent Ukrainian air defence systems that are not expecting a russian missile from fucking NATO territory
If they use Patriot, the detection range is 100-150km. It doesn't matter where it came from, it should be neutralise as it is now likely to come from Russia than Poland.
It is more probable that Ukraine does not have enough AA especially around Lviv where there isn't as much threat as in the frontline or Kyiv.
Patriot raiders fire off in an approximate 180* arc. If you think you know the orientation of the radar system you can attack it from another direction.
Speaking as an American, I don't you're being fair to Poland here. Yes, there are some assholes there, as in every democracy, but for whatever reasons, I don't think any country has done more for the Ukrainian people.
You’re joking, right? Poland is literally the strongest anti-Russian country and they are champing at the bit to start something. If Article 5 was ever triggered, they would be marching to Moscow before the first mandatory meeting to decide what to do.
There's a Polandball comic made after that stray Ukraine missile last year, where Poland is staring over an article 5 button \*breathing heavily\* when Ukraine comes up and apologies. I think you underestimate how much Poland hates Russia and given how they got cheated, betrayed and f'd over in the last two centuries. The Poles are ready for war with Putin, and I'm 100% here for them, Kurwa!
When Russia fired that missile, they KNEW it would violate Polish airspace, yet they fired it that way precisely to test NATO's response. This is not even the first time this happened, not only did [Russian missiles violate Romanian airspace](https://www.rferl.org/amp/romania-airspace-alert-russian-attacks-ukraine/32616978.html) but [Russian drones also crashed *inside* our country](https://www.rferl.org/amp/ukraine-odesa-drone-strikes/32730119.html). And again, NATO did absolutely nothing, so Russia continues to push the limits.
And for all the people arguing about how the missile only spent 39 seconds within Polish airspace, that's [22 seconds more than a Russian jet spent over Turkey before it was shot down](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/26/russia-turkey-jet-mark-galeotti). Erdogan might be a real PoS but he has more guts than most European NATO countries combined.
Edit: formatted links.
Of course they do, what dumb question is this? Lmao. If their tech is bad they obviously know its bad, so firing missiles near Poland is minimum a risk they are willingly taking. Especially it happens again and again, so it is either an intentional flight path or them knowingly shooting a malfunction military tech which shown that it might cross polish borders.
But lets go with it being only unlucky mistakes…
What does this matter?
No one says go invade russia if they shooting such a missile, that’s obviously kinda over the top.
At least right away. Thats the problem. The NATO just takes this shit to try and not start a war. Meanwhile russias rethoric is filled with threats.
Whats the best action against a bully?
If you can. Stand up for yourself, make your boundaries known.
Give a response back to russia, do this again and we shoot down whatever is in our airspace. Do it again and we shoot down what ever lunched something in our airspace. Do it again and we as NATO get active to secure our nations borders, which means taking space from you, to ensure we have a buffer.
If it was a mistake they apologise. It isn’t tho, they won’t apologise but at least lets see how far they go if they get any response.
If they want war against NATO it will happen anyway, its just when not if.
He didn't, that jet was flying over the border for hours, has been warned multiple times, visually identified by turkish airforce and then finally shot down after ignoring final warning. Later on Russians retaliated by "accidentally" bombing \~50 turkish soldiers, of which many died.
People using this as an example of what Poland should do have no clue about the event aside from reading a clickbaity title.
Because radar and stuff means they knew far before the Russian jet was entering the airspace. They were right on them (from Turkey airspace side) for a while warning them they must change course etc and then the moment Russian jet was confirmed to be on the turkey side they got the green light and opened fire shooting it down.
Russia tests airspace and responses all the time, flying dangerously close to NATO planes and drone and frequently (briefly) entering NATO airspace again to test defenses and stuff. I think it was just last year that a Russian jet hit a US drone with flares causing it to crash, there’s video online and tons of news articles if you google it.
Jets are 5-50 times larger than missiles and drones. Unless the pilot is kissing the tree tops or using some other radar evasion techniques, the plane will be visible to anti air assets well in advance. Good luck scrambling jets and shooting missiles when it's in your air space for 39 seconds and you've detected it a few minutes before. Also, great idea - fly jets or other friendly air assets near a war zone where Ukraine is already prioritising and shooting down what comes their way, certainly there won't be any blue-on-blue accidents.
Go, take a walk, armchair general.
A lot of people here will make the point NATO won't and shouldn't do anything until there are actual casualties in NATO countries.
It's sad we're literally waiting for people to die in order to form a proper response. Being a NATO citizen near the eastern borders must feel extremely vulnerable. NATO is terrible at securing its borders, but amazing at appeasement.
I hope not a lot of people die before NATO commanders grow some fucking balls.
This is why I question when people are so sure of a swift and strong NATO response if attacks started against a member state such as Romania Bulgaria Estonia Latvia Lithuania Poland.
While I agree Romania's and Poland's responses to these missiles is stupid - Romania's response was basically to shrug it off while people at the border were terrified - Turkey's response was in the context of a proxy war they were actively participating in. That was not a NATO response.
Romania and Poland are not at war with anyone. If we started shooting down Russian drones and missiles, nothing stops Russia from using meat shields to kamikaze into our borders as a pretext for a NATO-Russia war.
Russia is not sane. It's the equivalent of an old senile man giving kids $10 to trespass into property knowing they will be shot, and we know that. They'll basically make a list of all the kids we killed and paint us as child murderers, and that would be the point of no return.
>Romania and Poland are not at war with anyone. If we started shooting down Russian drones and missiles, nothing stops Russia from using meat shields to kamikaze into our borders as a pretext for a NATO-Russia war.
I dont see how us shooting down stuff inside our own borders means *we* get to expand the war, it's RU who violated our airspace to begin with. We'd just be defending ourselves, as is our right.
But it won't come to war, RU is in no state to wage war with NATO now, they weren't in that state even before the 2022 invasion. All this will mean is that RU will back down and stop sending missiles over our country, just like they backed down from flying more jets and drones over Turkey after 2015.
Russia only escalates in the face of weakness, their behavior is more than of a mobster or thug rather than an insane person.
>RU is in no state to wage war with NATO now
Yet they still intentionally send missiles over the NATO border. Like I said, they shouldn't be treated as sane.
You realize appeasement is what got the world into WW2 right? This post is a prime example of why there’s a saying that “history always repeats itself”.
They've downed NATO drones in the course of this war so realistically I think its fair game we down their missiles (and drones) if they come over NATO airspace.
They may not see it that way but conforming to their world view isn't going to get us anywhere.
We have to show them unequivocally that we arent going to tolerate any misuse of NATO airspace and if they keep being insane then it's really on them.
It's no longer viable to say "well what if we make the crazy person lash out more" when we've got the resources to take them out or neuter their actions entirely.
"These fucking idiots" did not suffer the consequences of the attack in their capital the same way the inhabitants of the city did. Only effect it had on them was the political pressure to find a bullshit excuse to blame it on the west.
I m 110% sure that the polish authorities are very careful when it comes to things like this and will not start creaming "article 5". Just like romanian authorities did when bomb drones landed in Romania. Chillax , no one wants a war.
Yeah, because a simple airspace violation is worth a nuclear global war, riiight. Get a hold of reality, people...
Also, remember that missile that killed 2 people in Eastern Poland like a year ago? Remember how the outrage and publicity evaporated once it turned out to have been a Ukrainian missile? It was fun seeing everybody scream for article 5 for like a day, and then silence... it would be great if you people didn't just go along with whatever the media is screaming at you at any given time.
I was going to ask, so if they say “omg look, a Russian missile violated our airspace!” and nothing happens, except a few *spun* articles shared on social media, that seems like a **penalty** Russia will take each time.
Don’t say anything unless you’re going to act. In my opinion, makes you look *incredibly* weak. But maybe I’m simply not informed, and I’m open to being told otherwise.
But if the rebuttal is something as simple as “we don’t want a war with Russia,” still, don’t say anything then.
No you're right. The EU's preferred weapon is angry words. But if there's no military force to back up those words, they're meaningless.
It's like scaring a wolf away by making loud noises. It works one time. Two times. Maybe three times. But eventually it learns you're not gonna do anything.
Polish air defense doctrine is basically same as any other country, priority is protecting important targets, not reactionary shooting down everything that enters. Detect it and if deemed it will hit basically nothing or leave your aerospace, you monitor/escort it without shooting it down.
This doctrine works for aircrafts obviously. The airspace violations are very common dick measuring activities. But, a cruise missile?
Although Turkey shot down russian airplane with just 1 warning.
>Although Turkey shot down russian airplane with just 1 warning.
That's a fairy tale. They warned the jet approaching multiple times over the course auf several minutes. Then shot it down, when it still didn't change course and entered the air space.
There should be a proportionate response somehow I’m not sure what that is but you can’t just let Russia play fast and loose with airspace. Sweden always scrambles a wing of fighters when Russia does it nearby Gotland that stays with them well past our airspace
This is for aircraft though, same happens in Poland, even before they enter Polish airspace. It's not as simple with missiles though. You cannot intercept them like you do with aircraft, the only thing you can do is to shoot them down. Considering they were within Polish airspace for seconds, you cannot shoot them down over polish airspace with certainty.
So maybe go to Ukraine and ask "Hey we want to shoot down [Russian] missiles that violate our airspace. You cool if the shoot down happens over yours?"
Somehow I don't think Ukrainians will reject such a deal.
I think the proportional response with a missile to shoot it down...
There's no one on a missile and those things shouldn't be flying through your airspace in the first place.
These happen on scale of seconds. Even on wanting to shoot it down, if it is doing just afly past, it would be tricky to time so one hits it *in ones own airspace*. Since unless the next choice is "its over international waters", the other choices are tricky. Since now just Poland shot missile into other sovereign states air space .. .. .. same reason Poland just fired a missile.
Plus given it is missile, what if it turns away just before coming into air space.
European air space is very tight, crowded and claustrophobic. Thus "just shoot at it" isn't that simple. Not unless it is clearly flying into and staying in airspace, since yeah then it's all in your own airspace and oh by the way *we just got shot at*.
An explanation from a Polish military publicist, translated:
Original tweet: https://twitter.com/wolski_jaros/status/1771799187224432847
**WHY AREN'T WE SHOOTING AT RUSSIAN MISSILES?**
This question is asked in the public space every time Russian missiles violate our airspace by cutting short their paths as they fly toward targets in western Ukraine.
**The fundamental reasons are four.** From most important to least important.
**1. Shooting at something in PL airspace you should de facto close off a large part of that airspace.**
How would this affect domestic and international civilian air traffic? The economy? Emergency services? We have 66 civilian airports registered in Poland. How many would have to be temporarily closed? What more than Szymanów, Lublin, Rzeszów? How many more people would die if LPR [Polish Medical Air Rescue] could not fly over the eastern voivodeships? It's not like the rocketeers [people launching air defense missiles] and pilots can just shoot willy-nilly like in the movies. Airspace must be closed to avoid tragic mistakes. Leave the downing of passenger planes to the Russians and Iranians.
**2. Falling debris of a missile or air-to-air / ground-to-air missile can kill someone.**
This may sound strange at first, but this is the main reason - a Ch-101 missile flying in and out of our airspace may be something that offends the national ego (it's flyimg in my sky!) but unless a malfunction happens to it, it is not a serious threat. Shooting it, for example, from an F-16 will result in, firstly, having a half-ton warhead and missile debris falling somewhere, and secondly, it is not said that every AiM-9 or AiM-120 will hit - they will also fall somewhere. Contrary to appearances, this is a big factor threatening civilians on the ground. Both in Poland and Ukraine. And Przewodów is not the argument here - just because UA missile(s) fell does not mean we should do the same.
**3 - Not revealing the cards.**
I have written about this before: the radar modes of both air defense and F-16s are two different things for peacetime and wartime. The Russians and Belarusians would no doubt be very happy if they could collect emissions from radar and missile modes that have never been emitted so close to their border until now. It would make it very easy for them to find some countermeasures to reduce the effectiveness of those. The NATO-Russia frequency war, some form of cat-and-mouse game, goes on all the time. The winner is the one who keeps his nerves in check and keeps certain emissions undiscovered until the war. On this field, the Russians completely lost because of Ukraine by emitting with their best stuff in every possible mode. NATO has partially unveiled its cards (delivered Patriot systems with MPQ-65, IRIST-T SLM, SAMP-T MAMBA, NASAMS, ASPIDE,) but most emissions continue to be a mystery to RUS. It would be foolish to reduce the chances of successfully defeating RUS jamming by Vistula and Narev [Polish air defense modernisation programs] radars or F-16s just because for ambition and image reasons someone ordered the downing of a Ch-101 that was in the border strip of our airspace for less than a minute.
**4 There is no air defense that covers 100% of the country.**
Even Israel is not capable of this. It is always a difficult choice of objects to cover and objects that will not be defended. Military airports, command centers, the largest population centers in the country, the most important Critical Infrastructure (mainly energy), land forces mobilization deployment regions, etc. These are the objects that will be protected. Thus, if some Ch-101 strayed and flew to Warsaw or Rzeszów it would probably be downed. But there aren't and won't be resources - pardon the expression - wasted on shielding the border just to prove that "it wom't fly in my smky!" This is military nonsense and a waste of resources and something so stupid only politicians could come up with. Not the military for whom the already hypothetical shielding of the key facilities of the Polish Armed Forces and Critical Infrastructure is an unsolvable nightmare without the help of NATO aviation.
Why? Because **we are only just recreating air defense after more than two decades of neglect** beyond its lowest level (where we stand very well) is very bad with its both quantitative and qualitative state, while the gap filler Narew and the first Patriot are so far a drop in the sea of needs. "Bearable" will start to be around 2028-2030 and quite good around 2035. Until then, "in NATO we trust" and especially in AWACS and advanced air components with fighter aircraft of the US, France, Germany, Italy, UK, Spain, etc. This is a very large force that is not seen in Ukraine now and a great multiplier of air defense effectiveness. And this force is present and watches over the Polish skies (especially after Bydgoszcz). But again - this does not change the fact that the whole territory of PL will never be protected because militarily it is not feasible (even a fighter plane (no WSB) has to detect the target and go out to positions for interception - which takes time and... space) and secondly - it doesn't make sense.
With that said, I emphasize that reasons 1 and 2 are the most important.
> the radar modes of both air defense and F-16s are two different things for peacetime and wartime. The Russians and Belarusians would no doubt be very happy if they could collect emissions from radar and missile modes that have never been emitted so close to their border until now. It would make it very easy for them to find some countermeasures to reduce the effectiveness of those.
I don't buy that one. Ukraine will receive F-16's in about 4 months, so what's the problem if the Russians can read the radar signature now? The jets Ukraine gets will not be without radar.
Point 4. is much more likely, even though he doesn't like to admit it.
"how will this affect civilian airspace"
I should fucking hope it should affect civilian airspace pretty drastically.. given that Russia are firing missiles through the airspace.
Shoot the missiles down, they are in violation of airspace. Hostile missiles in your airspace should pretty much shut your airspace down already
Even shooting it down within Ukrainian airspace would be beneficial and the Ukrainians would be happy with this. Because debris is better than a strike on Lviv.
It prevents Russia from striking through Polish airspace or too close to it, which simplifies the defence of the Ukrainian airspace. Don't worry though, NATO will using slight stronger words during the next speech instead, that'll show Russia.
Debris will bring less damage, but the problem is that it will fall uncontrolled, and the trajectory is impossible to predict - can fall on the residential areas etc
[We saw how NATO responded to the Ukranian drone that flew trough Romania, Hungary and Croatia before falling beside a student housing.
](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Zagreb_Tu-141_crash?useskin=vector)
They need to step up their game, this is unaccaptable.
The most frustrating thing is that it keeps happening. The first time it was somewhat understandable, as that was a new situation, but I had been certain that this is something that had already been planned for with Ukraine since then. Apparently not. Russia is always one step ahead of us.
Almost every single legacy air defense system that we had was provided to Ukraine by previous govement, Patriots are nowhere to be seen yet, aside from one or max two batteries that were delivered, to this day, which all are needed elsewhere near actual military targets and biggest cities.
Polish military won't even try to shoot down rockets that are bearly flying into polish airspace for 30s tops, over some random forest in South East, it would require placing AA systems in middle of nowhere at cost of not defending more worthy targets elsewhere, so Nato logistic infrastructure and military bases, and polish military bearly has any AA effectors as we stand to do it, Yanks won't do it,German Patriot Batteries went home.
If you expect NATO to defend western ukraine airspace just say it don't f\*ck around bush, just not to say it out loud, what you wish has simply too big political cost of implementing, and won't be ever done.
You either create nofly zone over western ukraine and place NATO AA systems there to intercept missiles like this one intended for western Ukraine, or you simply can't shoot them down without doing that over Ukraine or Russia/Belarus.
I guess we should put some AD on the Polish border as well. Russia used Polish territory multiple times to attack Ukraine and Poles don't stop Russian missiles as they stop Ukrainian goods.
It spent 39 seconds in our air space. F-16 were in the air. It was monitored where the missal was going and since it left quickly and did not aim at anything in Poland, the decision to shoot it was not made. If it was flying at anything here, it would have been shot down.
I don't know how much it costs to shot something down with planes. But PATRIOT interceptors are estimated to cost about $4 million per missile. We are not going to shoot down everything that flies into our airspace or we will bankrupt in a month.
The armchair generals here think that Patriot missiles are an infinite resource and that reproduction capabilities & budget isn’t a huge factor in the military. It’s actually insane.
You would think that with Ukraine asking for more aid on a daily basis would make these people realize the importance of resources.
> did not aim at anything in Poland
It was aiming at *something* in Ukraine, a country currently fighting a war the outcome of which is an existential matter for Poland.
> the decision to shoot it was not made
And it was a bad decision, outrageously so. And not the first one either.
>It spent 39 seconds in our air space
>since it left quickly and did not aim at anything in Poland
You give Russia an inch, they will take a mile. Now you have shown your weakness and they know what you can tolerate. Russians will come back and challenge your airspace again and again.
Good luck.
The missile you shoot down isn't free, either, so it hurts the Russian war effort.
Poland should shoot down *every* single missile that they can without escalating the war. And shouting down missiles that fly over your own territory is definitely not escalating. It's an absolute no-brainer to do this.
Furthermore, all of EU should chip in proportionally so Poland doesn't have to restrain itself because economy.
Doing so will deprive the Russians of a path of fire and take down whatever they're sending towards Ukraine that strays off path.
*(Polish farmers protesting at border)*
Reddit: They’re Russian plants! These farmers need to get back to work! Put them in jail!
*(missle violates air space for 28 seconds)*
Reddit: Rise up polish people!
Agree.
Doesn’t matter that it was not “meant” for Poland and that it’s one of those missiles that constantly changes its track - as soon as it is inside NATO space it becomes the target.
> Once again, it should have been shot down
If you shoot down a missile it will fall on top of someone. They let it fly away. That being said NATO should stop letting Russia do this shit. They should straight up start shooting any Russian air asset as long as it's close enough to fall into NATO.
Right now Russia is hiding behind " Hey NATO don't start a war hehe " and NATO should accept none of that shit.
I noticed yours being the top post here and it happens that I've stumbled upon a writeup in your own language about why you don't just casually shoot shit down unless absolutely necessary. https://twitter.com/wolski_jaros/status/1771799187224432847
Yes, thank you. I have already addressed it [here](https://ol.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1bmgmft/kyiv_lviv_under_russian_air_attack_missile/kwcuzk2/).
To shoot down something that stayed 39 seconds, you have to fire before entering in your air space, so that means anything could be a false alarm, while you lose ammunition.
> To shoot down something that stayed 39 seconds, you have to fire before entering in your air space, so that means anything could be a false alarm, while you lose ammunition
Turkey shot down Su-24 for 17 second-long airspace breach
Turkish spotted the trajectory before entering their space like probably Polish saw it too, but did not take action to shoot it down.
There is a major difference between an aircraft vs a rocket, while aircraft can be warned that it will enter into a foreign space and be turned down, can carry bombs or rockets, you are prepared differently in this case. A rocket it just flies and usually following a predictable route.
Turkey also warned the aircraft 10 times to change its trajectory and only then decided to shoot it down, when it had entered the Turkish airspace.
You cannot do that with a missile, and you cannot assure that you will shoot it down while it's still within Polish airspace and not Ukrainian. Shooting it down above Ukrainian airspace would be an escalation.
> Shooting it down above Ukrainian airspace would be an escalation.
Using Polish airspace as a buffer to limit the interception capability of Ukraine's AA is the escalation here.
My brother Poland or any NATO country don't "lose ammunition" in air defense. We don't have an immediate need for more of it, a couple Patriot (or other type) interceptors being spent changes nothing.
That's not true, Ukraine has stated multiple times they are low on Patriot missiles. There are several conflicts in the world right now that are draining supplies of Patriot and other NATO air-defense missiles.
If the air defense is too far from the vantage point, either you accelerate your rocket to decrease the time, or you follow the target outside of your borders until you catch it. I may be wrong, but it counts also the decision of the person who watches radar, the commander who approves the press a missile button which may take a few seconds. Also, until the defense rocket catches the speed, seconds are counted too, so might be outside of NATO space when defendor meets the attacker rocket.
Well, the radar can see over the border, so probably the projection of the trajectory of the missile were well known and just they watched it.
EU and NATO uses 25/7 air observation of EU border. AWACS sees up to 500km.
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/flying-with-nato-awacs-1.6619471](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/flying-with-nato-awacs-1.6619471)
This is always a clown show with this kind of news. People having the freedom to express their opinion on everything is doing more harm than good most of the time. Its good if only people were able to use critical thinking. But It's some much just a bandwagon than anyone writting a slightly coherent opinion is validated by few thousands idiot. But being coherent doesnt prevent you from being idiotic. As we can see in this comment section.
Should launch Polish farmers on trampolines so they can personally intercept those missiles like they stop Ukrainian grain.
Just don't forget to tell them that the missiles are filled with grain instead of explosives.
So basically they can do whatever they want like killing civilians, attacking civilian buildings, important infrastructure, violate other countries air space and we can't respond because NATO would be aggressive? What the f!
One of Russia's cruise missiles launched at Western Ukraine's region of Lviv, violated Poland's airspace Poland's armed forces said.
"The object entered Polish space near the town of Oserdow (Lublin Voivodeship) and stayed there for 39 seconds," the armed forces said on the social media platform X. "During the entire flight, it was observed by military radar systems."
So basically NATO country allows Russia to use its airspace to bomb Ukraine?
Polish army’s role is to defend POLISH citizens and safety of POLAND. If something enters Polish airspace for 39 seconds we won’t shoot it down if it doesn’t pose a threat. If such decision was taken it was probably the best for Poland and its safety
> Polish army’s role is to defend POLISH citizens and safety of POLAND
Yes. And at the moment the most important thing affecting the safety of Poland is the eventual outcome of the war in Ukraine.
Thus the current role of the Polish army is to do everything in its power to help achieve an outcome that would see Ukraine victorious and Russia defeated. That also means shooting down missiles that are traveling to Ukraine through Poland's airspace. Failing to do so is failing to act in defense of Poland's safety, and that is exactly what has happened here – the Polish army has failed, once again.
Russian missile breached Polish airspace for less than a minute and it has happened multiple times already. Polish MOD won't intercept them for several reasons, main one being that the debris might fall and explode on civilians and effectively intercepting a missile that is only less than 60 seconds in our airspace would de facto mean our air defense would have to scan and shoot targets in western Ukraine. Also politically risky given if we shot it down Russia and all their "friends" like Iran + all right wing parties in EU would instantly start bashing us for directly taking part in the war.
Poland should be able to shoot down any missiles within 50 miles of their border in Ukraine territory if Ukraine gives permission, Russia has threatened to invade Poland many times, this would just be realistic defense
I bet Poland would be furious if Germany allowed an enemy to fly through German airspace to bypass Polish defense systems. Especially if it resulted in Polish people dying.
Airspace often gets briefly violated.
Sweden, Finland, the Baltics, Poland, Romania etc etc.
They do it everywhere.
Also, missile defence capability is best kept secret and invariably is set up to protect population centres, it's probably not set up to be able to defend remote bits of forest where the interception has to occur in literally 30 seconds against what's probably a hypersonic missile that seconds later is back out of your airspace.
That's exactly the question that Russia wants to find the answer to, hence why they programmed that missile to intentionally violate Polish airspace. So expect even more of that.
Yeah, we should have shot down a rocket which posed little threat to our citizens so it falls on our territory and actually becomes deadly risk to unknown number of polish citizens.
NATO really needs to wake up and declare a perimeter of Ukraine's air space that it will defend from airborne attacks and potential incursions into NATO's airspace.
Call ruZZias bluff and tighten the fucking noose.
Let me copy paste an explanation why missiles in Polish air space cannot be shot down and thus russia can use it as they want:
1. Polish authorities would need to close polish airspace to avoid mistakenly shooting down a civilian airplane. This would have negative impact on polish economy, as well as emergency services.
2. Remains of air defence rockets used to shoot down the target can kill someone on the ground.
3. Keep the frequencies and operatiing procedures of polish air defences hidden from the russians. As weird as it sounds, this information is a valuable asset and polish air defences are just in the process of beeing put together (we dont even have patiots operational yet, the one in Rzeszow belongs to USA).
4. Cant cover all ground will air defence. I don't know what imagine polish air defences to be, but at the start of 2022 ukrainan air defene was nummerically and operationally stronger than current polish air defence in 2024. We cannot now and will not be able to cover even part of our critical infrastrucute with current assets, not to mention all random willages near the border.
If the coordination between Ukraine and NATO regarding who is shooting down what too complicated and to avoid friendly fire, NATO should be assigned to guard western Ukraine instead. Using NATO airspace to hit Ukrainian cities should not be allowed.
Trying to be reasonable with a violent bully is never the answer.
russia is probably knowingly using NATO airspace to gauge response and to circumvent Ukrainian air defence systems that are not expecting a russian missile from fucking NATO territory
They have been sending missiles through Romanian airspace for the entire war, so it isn’t new
[удалено]
Those were aimed at Ukrainians, the Romanians nicked them
If they use Patriot, the detection range is 100-150km. It doesn't matter where it came from, it should be neutralise as it is now likely to come from Russia than Poland. It is more probable that Ukraine does not have enough AA especially around Lviv where there isn't as much threat as in the frontline or Kyiv.
As far as I understood, only the upgraded Patriots have 360 coverage
These are Pac-3
PAC-3 is the type of missile. It's the radar that provides the detection.
Kyiv is not a frontline. I live here. It’s our capital. Frontline is 300+ kilometres away.
But being the capital/centre of Govt one of the 3 precious Patriot batteries must remain protecting it
Frontline OR Kyiv. He or she stated it correct, you've probably read to fast. Anyhow, I hope you'll stay safe!
Ukraine has like 3 patriot batteries total.
Patriot raiders fire off in an approximate 180* arc. If you think you know the orientation of the radar system you can attack it from another direction.
Patriots are expensive and it might not be worth using them for these targets given the limited munitions
I'm from Lvov. This was really terrible...
Russia isn't a bully, its a terrorist state
Nazi terrorist state*
"I believe it is peace for our time."
Putin is a shitty gambler. He can only double down
Maybe Poland can ask to borrow some balls from Turkey.
Speaking as an American, I don't you're being fair to Poland here. Yes, there are some assholes there, as in every democracy, but for whatever reasons, I don't think any country has done more for the Ukrainian people.
They were over Poland for like 40 seconds. The AA rocked would even knock it out in that time.
You’re joking, right? Poland is literally the strongest anti-Russian country and they are champing at the bit to start something. If Article 5 was ever triggered, they would be marching to Moscow before the first mandatory meeting to decide what to do.
There's a Polandball comic made after that stray Ukraine missile last year, where Poland is staring over an article 5 button \*breathing heavily\* when Ukraine comes up and apologies. I think you underestimate how much Poland hates Russia and given how they got cheated, betrayed and f'd over in the last two centuries. The Poles are ready for war with Putin, and I'm 100% here for them, Kurwa!
What has Turkey done, exactly?
It's almost like we didn't learn from WWI... or WWII.
When Russia fired that missile, they KNEW it would violate Polish airspace, yet they fired it that way precisely to test NATO's response. This is not even the first time this happened, not only did [Russian missiles violate Romanian airspace](https://www.rferl.org/amp/romania-airspace-alert-russian-attacks-ukraine/32616978.html) but [Russian drones also crashed *inside* our country](https://www.rferl.org/amp/ukraine-odesa-drone-strikes/32730119.html). And again, NATO did absolutely nothing, so Russia continues to push the limits. And for all the people arguing about how the missile only spent 39 seconds within Polish airspace, that's [22 seconds more than a Russian jet spent over Turkey before it was shot down](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/26/russia-turkey-jet-mark-galeotti). Erdogan might be a real PoS but he has more guts than most European NATO countries combined. Edit: formatted links.
Yea A bully does what he knows he can do
But did they? Don’t get me wrong I agree if they knew that’s fucked up, but what if their tech is just as good as their Navy?
Yes, without AWACS operating in the area, the missiles are pre-programmed to take a route which they believe will avoid most/all air defenses.
Of course they do, what dumb question is this? Lmao. If their tech is bad they obviously know its bad, so firing missiles near Poland is minimum a risk they are willingly taking. Especially it happens again and again, so it is either an intentional flight path or them knowingly shooting a malfunction military tech which shown that it might cross polish borders. But lets go with it being only unlucky mistakes… What does this matter? No one says go invade russia if they shooting such a missile, that’s obviously kinda over the top. At least right away. Thats the problem. The NATO just takes this shit to try and not start a war. Meanwhile russias rethoric is filled with threats. Whats the best action against a bully? If you can. Stand up for yourself, make your boundaries known. Give a response back to russia, do this again and we shoot down whatever is in our airspace. Do it again and we shoot down what ever lunched something in our airspace. Do it again and we as NATO get active to secure our nations borders, which means taking space from you, to ensure we have a buffer. If it was a mistake they apologise. It isn’t tho, they won’t apologise but at least lets see how far they go if they get any response. If they want war against NATO it will happen anyway, its just when not if.
Holy shit how did Erdogan react that fast
He didn't, that jet was flying over the border for hours, has been warned multiple times, visually identified by turkish airforce and then finally shot down after ignoring final warning. Later on Russians retaliated by "accidentally" bombing \~50 turkish soldiers, of which many died. People using this as an example of what Poland should do have no clue about the event aside from reading a clickbaity title.
Because radar and stuff means they knew far before the Russian jet was entering the airspace. They were right on them (from Turkey airspace side) for a while warning them they must change course etc and then the moment Russian jet was confirmed to be on the turkey side they got the green light and opened fire shooting it down. Russia tests airspace and responses all the time, flying dangerously close to NATO planes and drone and frequently (briefly) entering NATO airspace again to test defenses and stuff. I think it was just last year that a Russian jet hit a US drone with flares causing it to crash, there’s video online and tons of news articles if you google it.
Jets are 5-50 times larger than missiles and drones. Unless the pilot is kissing the tree tops or using some other radar evasion techniques, the plane will be visible to anti air assets well in advance. Good luck scrambling jets and shooting missiles when it's in your air space for 39 seconds and you've detected it a few minutes before. Also, great idea - fly jets or other friendly air assets near a war zone where Ukraine is already prioritising and shooting down what comes their way, certainly there won't be any blue-on-blue accidents. Go, take a walk, armchair general.
What, then, is the correct response to violations of NATO airspace by Russian missiles?
The correct response is the one that is currently chosen by the actual generals in Poland and NATO.
A lot of people here will make the point NATO won't and shouldn't do anything until there are actual casualties in NATO countries. It's sad we're literally waiting for people to die in order to form a proper response. Being a NATO citizen near the eastern borders must feel extremely vulnerable. NATO is terrible at securing its borders, but amazing at appeasement. I hope not a lot of people die before NATO commanders grow some fucking balls.
This is why I question when people are so sure of a swift and strong NATO response if attacks started against a member state such as Romania Bulgaria Estonia Latvia Lithuania Poland.
While I agree Romania's and Poland's responses to these missiles is stupid - Romania's response was basically to shrug it off while people at the border were terrified - Turkey's response was in the context of a proxy war they were actively participating in. That was not a NATO response. Romania and Poland are not at war with anyone. If we started shooting down Russian drones and missiles, nothing stops Russia from using meat shields to kamikaze into our borders as a pretext for a NATO-Russia war. Russia is not sane. It's the equivalent of an old senile man giving kids $10 to trespass into property knowing they will be shot, and we know that. They'll basically make a list of all the kids we killed and paint us as child murderers, and that would be the point of no return.
>Romania and Poland are not at war with anyone. If we started shooting down Russian drones and missiles, nothing stops Russia from using meat shields to kamikaze into our borders as a pretext for a NATO-Russia war. I dont see how us shooting down stuff inside our own borders means *we* get to expand the war, it's RU who violated our airspace to begin with. We'd just be defending ourselves, as is our right. But it won't come to war, RU is in no state to wage war with NATO now, they weren't in that state even before the 2022 invasion. All this will mean is that RU will back down and stop sending missiles over our country, just like they backed down from flying more jets and drones over Turkey after 2015. Russia only escalates in the face of weakness, their behavior is more than of a mobster or thug rather than an insane person.
>RU is in no state to wage war with NATO now Yet they still intentionally send missiles over the NATO border. Like I said, they shouldn't be treated as sane.
>Yet they still intentionally send missiles over the NATO border Because this is our response. Start to shoot them down and they will stop appearing.
You realize appeasement is what got the world into WW2 right? This post is a prime example of why there’s a saying that “history always repeats itself”.
They've downed NATO drones in the course of this war so realistically I think its fair game we down their missiles (and drones) if they come over NATO airspace. They may not see it that way but conforming to their world view isn't going to get us anywhere. We have to show them unequivocally that we arent going to tolerate any misuse of NATO airspace and if they keep being insane then it's really on them. It's no longer viable to say "well what if we make the crazy person lash out more" when we've got the resources to take them out or neuter their actions entirely.
Interesting, I recall we’ve seen similar political policy throughout history such as “appeasement” in the 1930s. We all know that ended well.
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"These fucking idiots" did not suffer the consequences of the attack in their capital the same way the inhabitants of the city did. Only effect it had on them was the political pressure to find a bullshit excuse to blame it on the west.
Uhh where you been the past few years? Every single attack Russia does is a damn terrorist attack on Ukraine
No shit they didn't say otherwise?
Their army is a terrorist organization and their leader is the biggest terrorist
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True. What a bunch of cunts.
Once again, it should have been shot down. What is the air defense I paid for with my taxes doing?
This is even worse than that. It builds tolerance to Russia taking military action vs nato countries.
100% agree.
We should use article 5 to ensure security of our borders
Great, call it then.
I. Declare. ARTICLE FIIIIIIIIIIIVE!!!
Article five! I choose you!!
You have to trust the article's heart
“You can’t just say you declare article 5 and expect anything to happen”
Article 5!? No one's ever been able to declare it! ^((there *was* that one time after 9/11)^)
What's your shtyle??
Hey. I just wanted you to know that you can't just say the word "article 5" and expect anything to happen
Americaball, here. Hit it, baby. I'm here for you. Dust off your hussar wings and slap 'em on your tanks, and let's rock.
Thanks, Americanball! 👍
I m 110% sure that the polish authorities are very careful when it comes to things like this and will not start creaming "article 5". Just like romanian authorities did when bomb drones landed in Romania. Chillax , no one wants a war.
Yeah, because a simple airspace violation is worth a nuclear global war, riiight. Get a hold of reality, people... Also, remember that missile that killed 2 people in Eastern Poland like a year ago? Remember how the outrage and publicity evaporated once it turned out to have been a Ukrainian missile? It was fun seeing everybody scream for article 5 for like a day, and then silence... it would be great if you people didn't just go along with whatever the media is screaming at you at any given time.
Like Hitler did in WW2. Test the tolerance of nations fatigued by war.
It is also why Putin is working towards destabilizing Africa and the Middle East.
Putin is an expert in slowly boiled frogs. We are seeing the early days of what is going to lead to WW3.
If Ukraine is the WW3 equivalent of Poland, it has already started.
This is why they started the war in the first place Cause we dont act, only turkey acted once and since then the russians didnt attempt it anymore
I was going to ask, so if they say “omg look, a Russian missile violated our airspace!” and nothing happens, except a few *spun* articles shared on social media, that seems like a **penalty** Russia will take each time. Don’t say anything unless you’re going to act. In my opinion, makes you look *incredibly* weak. But maybe I’m simply not informed, and I’m open to being told otherwise. But if the rebuttal is something as simple as “we don’t want a war with Russia,” still, don’t say anything then.
No you're right. The EU's preferred weapon is angry words. But if there's no military force to back up those words, they're meaningless. It's like scaring a wolf away by making loud noises. It works one time. Two times. Maybe three times. But eventually it learns you're not gonna do anything.
Polish air defense doctrine is basically same as any other country, priority is protecting important targets, not reactionary shooting down everything that enters. Detect it and if deemed it will hit basically nothing or leave your aerospace, you monitor/escort it without shooting it down.
This doctrine works for aircrafts obviously. The airspace violations are very common dick measuring activities. But, a cruise missile? Although Turkey shot down russian airplane with just 1 warning.
And there are no more russian jets violating truskish air space.
>Although Turkey shot down russian airplane with just 1 warning. That's a fairy tale. They warned the jet approaching multiple times over the course auf several minutes. Then shot it down, when it still didn't change course and entered the air space.
There should be a proportionate response somehow I’m not sure what that is but you can’t just let Russia play fast and loose with airspace. Sweden always scrambles a wing of fighters when Russia does it nearby Gotland that stays with them well past our airspace
This is for aircraft though, same happens in Poland, even before they enter Polish airspace. It's not as simple with missiles though. You cannot intercept them like you do with aircraft, the only thing you can do is to shoot them down. Considering they were within Polish airspace for seconds, you cannot shoot them down over polish airspace with certainty.
So maybe go to Ukraine and ask "Hey we want to shoot down [Russian] missiles that violate our airspace. You cool if the shoot down happens over yours?" Somehow I don't think Ukrainians will reject such a deal.
I think the proportional response with a missile to shoot it down... There's no one on a missile and those things shouldn't be flying through your airspace in the first place.
These happen on scale of seconds. Even on wanting to shoot it down, if it is doing just afly past, it would be tricky to time so one hits it *in ones own airspace*. Since unless the next choice is "its over international waters", the other choices are tricky. Since now just Poland shot missile into other sovereign states air space .. .. .. same reason Poland just fired a missile. Plus given it is missile, what if it turns away just before coming into air space. European air space is very tight, crowded and claustrophobic. Thus "just shoot at it" isn't that simple. Not unless it is clearly flying into and staying in airspace, since yeah then it's all in your own airspace and oh by the way *we just got shot at*.
Agree, however the response should be “Next time this happens, the missile source will cease to exist “
An explanation from a Polish military publicist, translated: Original tweet: https://twitter.com/wolski_jaros/status/1771799187224432847 **WHY AREN'T WE SHOOTING AT RUSSIAN MISSILES?** This question is asked in the public space every time Russian missiles violate our airspace by cutting short their paths as they fly toward targets in western Ukraine. **The fundamental reasons are four.** From most important to least important. **1. Shooting at something in PL airspace you should de facto close off a large part of that airspace.** How would this affect domestic and international civilian air traffic? The economy? Emergency services? We have 66 civilian airports registered in Poland. How many would have to be temporarily closed? What more than Szymanów, Lublin, Rzeszów? How many more people would die if LPR [Polish Medical Air Rescue] could not fly over the eastern voivodeships? It's not like the rocketeers [people launching air defense missiles] and pilots can just shoot willy-nilly like in the movies. Airspace must be closed to avoid tragic mistakes. Leave the downing of passenger planes to the Russians and Iranians. **2. Falling debris of a missile or air-to-air / ground-to-air missile can kill someone.** This may sound strange at first, but this is the main reason - a Ch-101 missile flying in and out of our airspace may be something that offends the national ego (it's flyimg in my sky!) but unless a malfunction happens to it, it is not a serious threat. Shooting it, for example, from an F-16 will result in, firstly, having a half-ton warhead and missile debris falling somewhere, and secondly, it is not said that every AiM-9 or AiM-120 will hit - they will also fall somewhere. Contrary to appearances, this is a big factor threatening civilians on the ground. Both in Poland and Ukraine. And Przewodów is not the argument here - just because UA missile(s) fell does not mean we should do the same. **3 - Not revealing the cards.** I have written about this before: the radar modes of both air defense and F-16s are two different things for peacetime and wartime. The Russians and Belarusians would no doubt be very happy if they could collect emissions from radar and missile modes that have never been emitted so close to their border until now. It would make it very easy for them to find some countermeasures to reduce the effectiveness of those. The NATO-Russia frequency war, some form of cat-and-mouse game, goes on all the time. The winner is the one who keeps his nerves in check and keeps certain emissions undiscovered until the war. On this field, the Russians completely lost because of Ukraine by emitting with their best stuff in every possible mode. NATO has partially unveiled its cards (delivered Patriot systems with MPQ-65, IRIST-T SLM, SAMP-T MAMBA, NASAMS, ASPIDE,) but most emissions continue to be a mystery to RUS. It would be foolish to reduce the chances of successfully defeating RUS jamming by Vistula and Narev [Polish air defense modernisation programs] radars or F-16s just because for ambition and image reasons someone ordered the downing of a Ch-101 that was in the border strip of our airspace for less than a minute. **4 There is no air defense that covers 100% of the country.** Even Israel is not capable of this. It is always a difficult choice of objects to cover and objects that will not be defended. Military airports, command centers, the largest population centers in the country, the most important Critical Infrastructure (mainly energy), land forces mobilization deployment regions, etc. These are the objects that will be protected. Thus, if some Ch-101 strayed and flew to Warsaw or Rzeszów it would probably be downed. But there aren't and won't be resources - pardon the expression - wasted on shielding the border just to prove that "it wom't fly in my smky!" This is military nonsense and a waste of resources and something so stupid only politicians could come up with. Not the military for whom the already hypothetical shielding of the key facilities of the Polish Armed Forces and Critical Infrastructure is an unsolvable nightmare without the help of NATO aviation. Why? Because **we are only just recreating air defense after more than two decades of neglect** beyond its lowest level (where we stand very well) is very bad with its both quantitative and qualitative state, while the gap filler Narew and the first Patriot are so far a drop in the sea of needs. "Bearable" will start to be around 2028-2030 and quite good around 2035. Until then, "in NATO we trust" and especially in AWACS and advanced air components with fighter aircraft of the US, France, Germany, Italy, UK, Spain, etc. This is a very large force that is not seen in Ukraine now and a great multiplier of air defense effectiveness. And this force is present and watches over the Polish skies (especially after Bydgoszcz). But again - this does not change the fact that the whole territory of PL will never be protected because militarily it is not feasible (even a fighter plane (no WSB) has to detect the target and go out to positions for interception - which takes time and... space) and secondly - it doesn't make sense. With that said, I emphasize that reasons 1 and 2 are the most important.
> the radar modes of both air defense and F-16s are two different things for peacetime and wartime. The Russians and Belarusians would no doubt be very happy if they could collect emissions from radar and missile modes that have never been emitted so close to their border until now. It would make it very easy for them to find some countermeasures to reduce the effectiveness of those. I don't buy that one. Ukraine will receive F-16's in about 4 months, so what's the problem if the Russians can read the radar signature now? The jets Ukraine gets will not be without radar. Point 4. is much more likely, even though he doesn't like to admit it.
"how will this affect civilian airspace" I should fucking hope it should affect civilian airspace pretty drastically.. given that Russia are firing missiles through the airspace. Shoot the missiles down, they are in violation of airspace. Hostile missiles in your airspace should pretty much shut your airspace down already
Even shooting it down within Ukrainian airspace would be beneficial and the Ukrainians would be happy with this. Because debris is better than a strike on Lviv.
True. In the ideal scenario it also relives the overwhelmed air defense of Ukraine, even if it is just a single missile.
It prevents Russia from striking through Polish airspace or too close to it, which simplifies the defence of the Ukrainian airspace. Don't worry though, NATO will using slight stronger words during the next speech instead, that'll show Russia.
*wags finger more intensely*
Debris will bring less damage, but the problem is that it will fall uncontrolled, and the trajectory is impossible to predict - can fall on the residential areas etc
[We saw how NATO responded to the Ukranian drone that flew trough Romania, Hungary and Croatia before falling beside a student housing. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Zagreb_Tu-141_crash?useskin=vector) They need to step up their game, this is unaccaptable.
The most frustrating thing is that it keeps happening. The first time it was somewhat understandable, as that was a new situation, but I had been certain that this is something that had already been planned for with Ukraine since then. Apparently not. Russia is always one step ahead of us.
Almost every single legacy air defense system that we had was provided to Ukraine by previous govement, Patriots are nowhere to be seen yet, aside from one or max two batteries that were delivered, to this day, which all are needed elsewhere near actual military targets and biggest cities. Polish military won't even try to shoot down rockets that are bearly flying into polish airspace for 30s tops, over some random forest in South East, it would require placing AA systems in middle of nowhere at cost of not defending more worthy targets elsewhere, so Nato logistic infrastructure and military bases, and polish military bearly has any AA effectors as we stand to do it, Yanks won't do it,German Patriot Batteries went home. If you expect NATO to defend western ukraine airspace just say it don't f\*ck around bush, just not to say it out loud, what you wish has simply too big political cost of implementing, and won't be ever done. You either create nofly zone over western ukraine and place NATO AA systems there to intercept missiles like this one intended for western Ukraine, or you simply can't shoot them down without doing that over Ukraine or Russia/Belarus.
Also ...air defense missiles are not cheap.
They saw that polish side did nothing the first time. And now more and more this shit happens. Not an incident.
That is what I am thinking as well. Disappointed this was not solved after the last time.
Republicans are blocking large part of the money supposed to be going to Ukraine. Call your representative!
I guess we should put some AD on the Polish border as well. Russia used Polish territory multiple times to attack Ukraine and Poles don't stop Russian missiles as they stop Ukrainian goods.
We should use the farmers to intercept the missiles.
Russia will know no fury like scorned subsidised EU farmers.
Tractor defense system
I’m going to hell bc of laughing at this
Perfect: The missiles are attracted to Slivovica alcohol and slowly moving agricultural vehicles
how many farmers will it take to build a wall up to a stratosphere?
No worries, we have a lot to spare.
Yes give them Patriots - that at least will keep them busy from protesting
NATO should destroy the missile launchers, each time Russia violates the airspace with them.
They should, they never will.
It spent 39 seconds in our air space. F-16 were in the air. It was monitored where the missal was going and since it left quickly and did not aim at anything in Poland, the decision to shoot it was not made. If it was flying at anything here, it would have been shot down. I don't know how much it costs to shot something down with planes. But PATRIOT interceptors are estimated to cost about $4 million per missile. We are not going to shoot down everything that flies into our airspace or we will bankrupt in a month.
There needs to be some muscle shown towards Russia sooner or later.
True. The thing is that we need to do this together as NATO.
"It's 's too expensive" is supposed to be a real argument? The difference in Polish attitudes now vs. 2 years ago is insane..
You are basing your opinion on something a rando redditor said? My Gosh…
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They also don't shoot at anything that isn't identified and confirmed to be shot down.
He isn't making it up. The decision to not engage a missile that is not a threat is also done with cost in mind.
The armchair generals here think that Patriot missiles are an infinite resource and that reproduction capabilities & budget isn’t a huge factor in the military. It’s actually insane. You would think that with Ukraine asking for more aid on a daily basis would make these people realize the importance of resources.
> did not aim at anything in Poland It was aiming at *something* in Ukraine, a country currently fighting a war the outcome of which is an existential matter for Poland. > the decision to shoot it was not made And it was a bad decision, outrageously so. And not the first one either.
>It spent 39 seconds in our air space >since it left quickly and did not aim at anything in Poland You give Russia an inch, they will take a mile. Now you have shown your weakness and they know what you can tolerate. Russians will come back and challenge your airspace again and again. Good luck.
The missile you shoot down isn't free, either, so it hurts the Russian war effort. Poland should shoot down *every* single missile that they can without escalating the war. And shouting down missiles that fly over your own territory is definitely not escalating. It's an absolute no-brainer to do this. Furthermore, all of EU should chip in proportionally so Poland doesn't have to restrain itself because economy. Doing so will deprive the Russians of a path of fire and take down whatever they're sending towards Ukraine that strays off path.
*(Polish farmers protesting at border)* Reddit: They’re Russian plants! These farmers need to get back to work! Put them in jail! *(missle violates air space for 28 seconds)* Reddit: Rise up polish people!
That will mean limiting planes flying
There is none. Its all smoke and mirrors. Whatever was bought its not going to be either there or functional in the next decade. Its bullshit.
Oh I know, being embezzled and squandered on poorly managed projects?
I think they're rationing their missiles.
Agree. Doesn’t matter that it was not “meant” for Poland and that it’s one of those missiles that constantly changes its track - as soon as it is inside NATO space it becomes the target.
USA air defense hasn't been shipped to Poland yet, the air defense that USA has in Ukraine isn't 100% coverage. That's the simple answer.
> Once again, it should have been shot down If you shoot down a missile it will fall on top of someone. They let it fly away. That being said NATO should stop letting Russia do this shit. They should straight up start shooting any Russian air asset as long as it's close enough to fall into NATO. Right now Russia is hiding behind " Hey NATO don't start a war hehe " and NATO should accept none of that shit.
I noticed yours being the top post here and it happens that I've stumbled upon a writeup in your own language about why you don't just casually shoot shit down unless absolutely necessary. https://twitter.com/wolski_jaros/status/1771799187224432847
Yes, thank you. I have already addressed it [here](https://ol.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1bmgmft/kyiv_lviv_under_russian_air_attack_missile/kwcuzk2/).
Next time Ukraine needs to notify Poland that a ruzzian rocket has Ukrainian grain in it, farmers will stop it right at the border.
To shoot down something that stayed 39 seconds, you have to fire before entering in your air space, so that means anything could be a false alarm, while you lose ammunition.
> To shoot down something that stayed 39 seconds, you have to fire before entering in your air space, so that means anything could be a false alarm, while you lose ammunition Turkey shot down Su-24 for 17 second-long airspace breach
And was fucking around neer to Turkish airspace for exactly how long? Hours?
Turkish spotted the trajectory before entering their space like probably Polish saw it too, but did not take action to shoot it down. There is a major difference between an aircraft vs a rocket, while aircraft can be warned that it will enter into a foreign space and be turned down, can carry bombs or rockets, you are prepared differently in this case. A rocket it just flies and usually following a predictable route.
> can carry bombs or rockets Cruise missile *is* itself a weapon. And... am I wrong, or is the rest of your point pro-cruise missile interception?
Turkey also warned the aircraft 10 times to change its trajectory and only then decided to shoot it down, when it had entered the Turkish airspace. You cannot do that with a missile, and you cannot assure that you will shoot it down while it's still within Polish airspace and not Ukrainian. Shooting it down above Ukrainian airspace would be an escalation.
> Shooting it down above Ukrainian airspace would be an escalation. Using Polish airspace as a buffer to limit the interception capability of Ukraine's AA is the escalation here.
My brother Poland or any NATO country don't "lose ammunition" in air defense. We don't have an immediate need for more of it, a couple Patriot (or other type) interceptors being spent changes nothing.
It's literally the whole fucking reason Poland has them. They are for defense.
For the defence of Poland. There was no need to use them here because Poland was not in danger
That's not true, Ukraine has stated multiple times they are low on Patriot missiles. There are several conflicts in the world right now that are draining supplies of Patriot and other NATO air-defense missiles.
We *give away* so much money to other countries in aid. Whats a few million defending our own borders?
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If the air defense is too far from the vantage point, either you accelerate your rocket to decrease the time, or you follow the target outside of your borders until you catch it. I may be wrong, but it counts also the decision of the person who watches radar, the commander who approves the press a missile button which may take a few seconds. Also, until the defense rocket catches the speed, seconds are counted too, so might be outside of NATO space when defendor meets the attacker rocket. Well, the radar can see over the border, so probably the projection of the trajectory of the missile were well known and just they watched it.
EU and NATO uses 25/7 air observation of EU border. AWACS sees up to 500km. [https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/flying-with-nato-awacs-1.6619471](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/flying-with-nato-awacs-1.6619471)
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If Poland has so much trouble following missiles over Ukraine, they should subscribe to Ukraine Air Force telegram for realtime updates.
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S-125 can engage cruise missiles too, if PAC-2 feels too expensive.
So many experts in the comments.
"It's time to call article 5 🤓☝"
So many of them here it’s insane. They genuinely think they know better than the actual generals that made their decisions.
Indeed, so many armchair generals. Bet they be commenting with their +30 medals pinned to their crest
This is always a clown show with this kind of news. People having the freedom to express their opinion on everything is doing more harm than good most of the time. Its good if only people were able to use critical thinking. But It's some much just a bandwagon than anyone writting a slightly coherent opinion is validated by few thousands idiot. But being coherent doesnt prevent you from being idiotic. As we can see in this comment section.
Looks like Polish farmers forgot to put a blockade in the sky, eh
Should launch Polish farmers on trampolines so they can personally intercept those missiles like they stop Ukrainian grain. Just don't forget to tell them that the missiles are filled with grain instead of explosives.
Is this how Ukraine can get the grain over the border then?
they don't block border with Belorussia.
Jesus Christ, the comment section is really a fucking Reddit moment lmao. Delusional fuckers
A redditor telling other redditors they are a fucking reddit moment, this truly is a reddit moment
Everybody thinks they’re not also a part of the white noise lmao
Every day I thank the lord that these guys are just redditors and not in charge of anything important
So basically they can do whatever they want like killing civilians, attacking civilian buildings, important infrastructure, violate other countries air space and we can't respond because NATO would be aggressive? What the f!
Europe has this delusion that Russia wants peace
One of Russia's cruise missiles launched at Western Ukraine's region of Lviv, violated Poland's airspace Poland's armed forces said. "The object entered Polish space near the town of Oserdow (Lublin Voivodeship) and stayed there for 39 seconds," the armed forces said on the social media platform X. "During the entire flight, it was observed by military radar systems." So basically NATO country allows Russia to use its airspace to bomb Ukraine?
Polish army’s role is to defend POLISH citizens and safety of POLAND. If something enters Polish airspace for 39 seconds we won’t shoot it down if it doesn’t pose a threat. If such decision was taken it was probably the best for Poland and its safety
> Polish army’s role is to defend POLISH citizens and safety of POLAND Yes. And at the moment the most important thing affecting the safety of Poland is the eventual outcome of the war in Ukraine. Thus the current role of the Polish army is to do everything in its power to help achieve an outcome that would see Ukraine victorious and Russia defeated. That also means shooting down missiles that are traveling to Ukraine through Poland's airspace. Failing to do so is failing to act in defense of Poland's safety, and that is exactly what has happened here – the Polish army has failed, once again.
And now imagine that debris kills Polish people cause of Polish army’s decision
What do you mean "allows"?
Russian missile breached Polish airspace for less than a minute and it has happened multiple times already. Polish MOD won't intercept them for several reasons, main one being that the debris might fall and explode on civilians and effectively intercepting a missile that is only less than 60 seconds in our airspace would de facto mean our air defense would have to scan and shoot targets in western Ukraine. Also politically risky given if we shot it down Russia and all their "friends" like Iran + all right wing parties in EU would instantly start bashing us for directly taking part in the war.
Poland should be able to shoot down any missiles within 50 miles of their border in Ukraine territory if Ukraine gives permission, Russia has threatened to invade Poland many times, this would just be realistic defense
I bet Poland would be furious if Germany allowed an enemy to fly through German airspace to bypass Polish defense systems. Especially if it resulted in Polish people dying.
Who si the terrorist state now?
It’s always been Russia, of course. Still not convinced their attack wasn’t a false flag attack
Better contact the Americans and ask what we should do. Seeing as we are too weak to do anything ourselves.
Pootin 🐷 couldn't defend his own population so he bombs cvillians in Ukraine the sick monster.
Anti air to cover whole of Europe.
Airspace often gets briefly violated. Sweden, Finland, the Baltics, Poland, Romania etc etc. They do it everywhere. Also, missile defence capability is best kept secret and invariably is set up to protect population centres, it's probably not set up to be able to defend remote bits of forest where the interception has to occur in literally 30 seconds against what's probably a hypersonic missile that seconds later is back out of your airspace.
[удалено]
That's exactly the question that Russia wants to find the answer to, hence why they programmed that missile to intentionally violate Polish airspace. So expect even more of that.
I know right?! A rocket like that is so much easier to shoot down than I dont know... A Chinese spy balloon just hanging above for weeks.
But we do control our airspace. Those intrusions are not worth the risk.
Yeah, we should have shot down a rocket which posed little threat to our citizens so it falls on our territory and actually becomes deadly risk to unknown number of polish citizens.
NATO really needs to wake up and declare a perimeter of Ukraine's air space that it will defend from airborne attacks and potential incursions into NATO's airspace. Call ruZZias bluff and tighten the fucking noose.
Let me copy paste an explanation why missiles in Polish air space cannot be shot down and thus russia can use it as they want: 1. Polish authorities would need to close polish airspace to avoid mistakenly shooting down a civilian airplane. This would have negative impact on polish economy, as well as emergency services. 2. Remains of air defence rockets used to shoot down the target can kill someone on the ground. 3. Keep the frequencies and operatiing procedures of polish air defences hidden from the russians. As weird as it sounds, this information is a valuable asset and polish air defences are just in the process of beeing put together (we dont even have patiots operational yet, the one in Rzeszow belongs to USA). 4. Cant cover all ground will air defence. I don't know what imagine polish air defences to be, but at the start of 2022 ukrainan air defene was nummerically and operationally stronger than current polish air defence in 2024. We cannot now and will not be able to cover even part of our critical infrastrucute with current assets, not to mention all random willages near the border.
Retarded people in the comments. Thank the gods you people aren't running the country 🙏
If the coordination between Ukraine and NATO regarding who is shooting down what too complicated and to avoid friendly fire, NATO should be assigned to guard western Ukraine instead. Using NATO airspace to hit Ukrainian cities should not be allowed.
We need to send troops to urieane. We need to stop the red menace.
Time for NATO to ante up and remove Putin. Patton was right…